Woman's Hour - Helena Bonham Carter, UEFA Women's Euro, Tuam, Women and gaming

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Last night England faced Wales in their final match of the group stage of the UEFA Women's Euro and England came out victorious - winning 6-1 and knocking Wales out of the tournament in the process. To discuss the result, Nuala McGovern is joined by England's top goal scorer and former Lioness Ellen White, and Laura McAllister, Vice-President of UEFA, who was previously the captain of Wales' women's team, gaining 24 caps for her country. For over 40 years, Helena Bonham Carter has delighted us with roles including Lucy Honeychurch in Room with a View, Princess Margaret in The Crown and Harry Potter's much-loved villain, Bellatrix Lestrange. She joins Nuala in the studio to discuss her latest role in new film, Four Letters of Love. Based on the bestselling book of the same name, she plays Margaret Gore, the wife of a poet living on a remote island in the West of Ireland in the 1970s. We bring you the latest on the excavation of a mass grave of babies and young children at Tuam in County Galway in Ireland, due to begin later today. The exhumations will be carried out at the site of an institution for unmarried mothers, which operated between 1925 and 1961. We speak to journalist Alison O'Reilly, one of the women who pushed to get this investigation underway. All this week we’re taking a deep dive into the world of gaming. It's an industry worth £6bn - more than music, TV and film combined - so we'll be exploring what impact it has on our lives (whether we realise it or not) and where women come into it. First up, we're joined by video game reporter and eSports presenter Frankie Ward and Twitch streamer Alyce, also known online as Alyska Plays, to discuss. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sarah Jane Griffiths

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, I'm Nuala McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Helena Bodham Carter comes back to our studio this morning to chat about her new film Four Letters of Love. It's based on the bestselling novel. I'm really looking forward to comparing Irish accents with

her and also finding out whether she believes in soulmates. Also, that match between England and Wales last night, we're going to get into it in just a minute. We have two powerhouses from England and Wales joining us to pick apart that 6-1 win for England. Women and gaming also coming up. We have a new series all this week. It's starting today. This is a booming industry. Women actually make up almost half of all gamers. And I want to know this morning, are you one of them? Why do you play? What does it give you? Maybe there's some nostalgic memories of gaming that I'm also encouraging you to share with your fellow listeners this

morning. You can text the program the number is 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website and send a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number 03700 100444. Also we return to Tune in Ireland where excavation work is due to begin today at the site of a former mother and baby home in County Galway. The aim is to identify possibly up to 796 infants buried in a mass grave from the 1920s through to the 1960s. Now, you might remember our special program on this that we broadcast last September. We have more on that this hour.

But do let us begin with England versus Wales in the Euros last night, a highly anticipated match between two home nations as they both attempted to make an impact in the final game of the group stages of the UEFA Women's Euros. Now England, as you've probably heard, came out victorious winning 6-1 and knocking Wales out of that tournament in the process. This is the first, was perhaps now, this was the first time Wales have made it to a Euros and they stayed on the pitch thanking their marvelous fans after that match. England won the whole thing in 2022, we've spoken about that many times, but now they progress on to the quarterfinals and they face Sweden next, that is on Thursday evening. So joining

me to discuss the match and where this leaves both teams I'm joined by a stellar lineup of England's top goal scorer and former Lioness Ellen White and also Laura McAllister, vice president of the Union of European Football Associations or UEFA as it is called. During her own football career, Laura was captain of the Wales women's team gaining 24 caps for her country. Welcome to you both. Let me begin with you, Laura. I love that you're in full kit there. For those that are listening on the radio, it's come to an end for Wales. But how are you feeling this morning as you digest over the past 12 hours? Well, thank you for having me.

Disappointed, obviously, because we didn't come to Switzerland to just make up the numbers, albeit it was our first qualification and everyone knows that the first time you're present in a major international competition, it's tough and it's a very steep learning curve, but we didn't come here just to make up the numbers. So clearly we're disappointed that we're leaving early. But there's a few things to say. We were in probably one of the toughest groups that's ever been drawn in a European championships for men or women for that matter.

We were playing against three of the very top teams. I mean, England obviously showed their class last night. Same could be said about France and the Netherlands. And I think for us, what it's shown is how far we still have to go to develop the women's game in Wales in the way that we want to and to ensure that we are giving a level playing field to girls and boys to play. It's interesting the word I pick up there that you feel they left early now

you're someone who has worked very hard personally to get this team to this level so you're expecting them to go further? Of course, you know, we're very clear what our objectives are and I'm sure Ellen will tell you in a moment, they're very different to England's objectives coming into this tournament. We are not a top 20 nation, we're ranked at FIFA rankings around 30 at the moment. Our journey has been a stop start one from the days when I was playing in the nineties and early two thousands,

when for example, we were having to fight for everything, having to wear the men's cast off kits and play on pretty rubbish pitches. So we've come a long way, but make no mistake, this journey isn't over now. This was the first step to improving and enhancing the offer for women's football in Wales. But it's a big challenge for us because all of that costs a lot of money. We're not as wealthy an association as the English FA is. And now

we've got a big task ahead of us to review the performance and plan what we do next. Thank you for that Laura. I want to turn to Ellen. I think you might have a little one not too far away from you as well. Hello to them, hello to you. How do you feel about last night? What are you thinking for Wales in particular? I mean Laura is outlining some of the challenges there and I suppose that mismatch really or the balance that isn't there when it comes to the investment in the game? Yeah, I think, good morning everyone by the way, yeah I think for me I think you know it's really important firstly to acknowledge Wales reaching their first major tournament and that's an amazing achievement and then to obviously score two goals as well and you

don't want it to just stop there, You want this now for Wales to be the standard that they will reach major tournaments. Siri, my daughter's in the seat. And I feel like the investment for the FAAW and the support to remain for them to progress and be able to make that a standard is really important. So I think for me, it's amazing to see them at this tournament and they know now what the standard is and what's required to win group games and to continue to progress in the women's game. So for them it was

amazing to see them at the tournament. That national anthem is something to behold isn't it? It's so special. For those that didn't hear it basically was booming around the stadium. Some are calling. I know definitely the Welsh players wanted to pay tribute to their fans. That were some of the loudest, apparently, Laura, at the tournament. Yes, they were. Look, I mean, this was always a tournament that was about more than what happened on the pitch alone. For us, you know, we're a relatively small nation of just over three million people. Maybe we don't have the profile and the visibility that some of the bigger nations have on the world stage and this was an opportunity to show what Wales is all about and, blimey, we

ticked that box early on. I mean, I think the messages we had about Heine Radvan had our anthem and the way our fans have embraced the tournament, all ages, all sexes, all backgrounds, everyone out, you know, the largest number of fans of pretty much any nation in the Euro. But, and it's a big but, that's great and I'm delighted and I feel very, very proud of that. But this is about football and as Ellen said a moment ago, we know we've got work to do and it's a big test for all of us now to take the next step to make sure that we advance and we're able to compete with these nations next time round. So maybe emotional hearing that anthem of very clear eyes on your goal. Yes of course, look let's celebrate the great things.

Jess Fishlock, probably one of the best players to ever play the game, scored a wonderful goal. She had a great assist and a great goal with Hannah Kane last night. But that's not enough. You know, we're not little old Wales here. You know, we're a country that wants to be in tournaments regularly and competing at the highest level. And we only do that by investing smartly, strategically and systemically and if we do that you know we can be present in most tournaments. I mean we're not in England and we're not in France but we can still be present in most tournaments. Interesting and yeah Jess Fishlock of people haven't seen that goal worth going back and taking a

look. Ellen what about England last night? You're England's top goal scorer, so you've scored the most goals of any Lioness past or present. But last night, as I was watching, it was a different player every time a goal was scored. So we're talking about six different women there. First thoughts on the performance? Yeah, I think it was a really dominant professional performance. You know, there's so much talk about the rivalry of England versus Wales, the passion, the desire, the competitiveness,

but I feel like England really kind of came out the blocks. I thought Wales done well for the first five or 10 minutes and then obviously just that disappointment to obviously concede the penalty when they did. But I felt like it was a very patient, a very methodical kind of performance from England moving the ball well and then obviously it's amazing to see so many goal scorers and that just gives a lot of confidence and momentum for this group and then to see a few changes made and those changes with Beth Mead and Aggy Beaver-Jones coming on and contributing with goals as well so I think it's an all-around very good performance to then take into the quarterfinals against Sweden on Thursday. Because some would say that England has been inconsistent in this tournament and perhaps even

before this tournament. They had that zing last night but do you think they can hold on to it? I hope so. Yeah we definitely have been quite inconsistent. We hadn't had back-to-back wins for about six games I think since before obviously that that win against Wales last night. So for England it's about continuing that consistency and Serena I think has found Serena Vega the manager has now found maybe her start in 11 that she can really rely on and then Bring on a number of players to hopefully change the game. But it's going to be a real tough test against Sweden, but I feel like these past two games we've seen in England that we know and that we love and these players have brought out some

great football and obviously executed the game plan as well. Was there a particular player who has impressed you in this tournament? I think to be honest, I think Lauren James has lit up for England. And I think Ella Toon as well in the 10. I think she's done really well contributing with goals and assists. And I'm a number nine and I absolutely love Alessia Russo. You know, she's had a lot of pressure on her shoulders being England's number nine, but I was so happy for her to see her get her goal that she thoroughly deserved. So, but there's other players at the tournament that have been phenomenal as well.

What does that do for a player when they score a goal going forward? I think particularly for a number nine, your job is to score goals. But I feel like Alessia Russo has contributed in so many other ways with her hard work and her assisting other players as well. But I think it just gives you a lot of confidence that you're doing the right things and you're in the right areas and gives you a bit of boost then going into into the next few games. But yeah, ultimately your job is to score goals and you can say as much as you want that you're pleased that the team are winning and I know that she is selfless in that sense but I think for her she'll be really happy that she got on that score sheet. Thoughts against Sweden and I'll come to you in just one second Laura. Ellen first. It's gonna be a really tough test. Sweden have been very good this

tournament. Their last group game was against Germany and they did a convincing performance and a convincing win, scored a lot of goals. They've got some great athleticism and intensity in their press, but then a counter-attack in ability as well. So it's going to be a real tough ask for England. And if we've performed at the way that we have the last two games, I think it'd be a really tight contest and lots of goals and hopefully in England's favor. Laura, am I allowed to ask this on the morning after? I don't know? Will you support England now going forward? I have a role within UEFA so I have to be neutral unless my country is there. I wish England all the best and I think they've got a very real chance of certainly getting to the final.

There's still lots of big countries left who could win this tournament. But the pleasing thing is this is a stronger, better Euros than the one in England three years ago. And that's exactly the trajectory that we were hoping for in UEFA. And we've got to get better every single time. And that applies throughout the structure of women's football. Thank you both so much for coming on. Ellen White and Laura McAllister. Of course we had some of the Lionesses on and the Welsh team as well will continue watching, we'll continue talking. Now if you have been listening to

Women's Hour you'll know we're in the middle of a bumper summer of women's sport, not just football. Tomorrow Inside Health looks at the science of sport and the female body. They're going to meet elite athletes and the scientists who are at the science of sport and the female body. They're going to meet elite athletes and the scientists who are at the forefront of investigating the impact of periods, for example, on athletic performance, breast movement, sports bra mechanics and why women are more prone to certain injuries than men. So that will be presented inside Health by James Gallagher. It's on at 930 a.m. tomorrow, right here on Radio 4 and afterwards on BBC Sound.

So you can listen to that and then come to us. But next on the programme, I want to welcome back Helena Bonham Carter, one of our best known actors for over 40 years. We've watched her so many roles. Let's pull out a few. Lucy Honeychurch in Room with a View, Princess Margaret in The Crown, Harry Potter's much loved villain, Bellatrix Lestrange. The latest role, Helena, Four Letters of Love, based on Niall Williams' novel.

And you play Margaret Gore, the wife of a poet living on a remote island in the west of Ireland in the 1970s. Good morning. Good morning. Oh, I love it. You're back in your Irish accent again. I don't know how it's going to last because I'm actually, I mean, I did it because I wanted to indulge and pretend to be Irish. Why not? You know, when you were going out the door the last time you were here, you were asking me, where are you from exactly? That was because I wanted to poach yours. Well, you know, I thought you did a great, I'm Dublin. So I'm North Dublin. And she is actually was from and then she moves to the West.

To the beautiful West, the mythical West, as it's called. The mythical West. Have you read the book? I haven't read the book. I watched the film yesterday. I thought it was so beautiful. Oh, you loved the film. Thank God for that. Now that was very Irish. Your turn. I mean, I did this.

You do different jobs for different reasons. And this is just for the love of the book. It's one of those books that I envy anybody who hasn't read it. And they're about to start. Well, I was thinking because I've just actually come back of Holidays that I should have been reading it over the past week when I watched the film last night and started looking at how enamored you were with this book, because you got it. How long ago was it?

It was about 25 years ago. I read it. That's how long the love lasts. It's like it's one of those magical, enchanting books and the spell of it. And it's all it's indescribable. I mean, it's not for those who are not romantic. It's not for those who are cynical. It's for those.

It's a love story, but it's also about a lot, all kinds of loves, not just romantic love. And I don't know what I'm sounding out like at the moment but whatever, just ignore my sounds. It's mystical and lyrical and romantical and it's about, it's sort of, there is that in the face of sorrow and alongside sorrow there can exist a lot of magic and that if one listens to the patterns in the universe or what it's trying to say and not control it, it can come for, there can be a lot of good that can come to it. I can't really, honestly, I don't, you have to read the book, that's the point. But I think romantic and whether you're a romantic or a realist

is definitely one of those lines that I saw going through it. There's two families that are in different sides of the island, the East and the West Coast, and their lives become intertwined romantically at times. You have the character of William gives up his office job to become a painter. That's Pierce Brosnan for people following along, followed by his son Nicholas. We also have Gabriel Byrne, who you are married to, who's the master, who's the poet on the West Side. But I want to play a little clip because you talk about love. This is Margaret speaking to her daughter, Isabel.

When I met him, when he fell for me, your father, he said the poems, wrote themself. They poured out of him. And I took that as a sign. But when they stopped, that would have to be a sign too. I thought that love was poetry and moonlight. It's not. Falling in love. Well, that's the easy part. The hard part is what follows.

You have to make a marriage. Are you a romantic or a realist? I'm a total romantic, but I have a realistic side to me. But I'm a die-hard romantic. But yeah, I'm obviously on the fence. Margaret is somebody who started off life as a romantic, married this man, this poet who ended up not unable to write. And she had to do all that, as a lot of wives of geniuses do. They run, do the hard work of running the household while the geniuses can go off and imagine, giving them the freedom. And it's been a hard life. She doesn't regret marrying the master, but it's a hard life. And she's it's a sort of pregnant, it's a war within her, is the heart versus the head. And in the end, she does some questionable things, but it's all about trying to protect

the daughter from the harshness of her own life. Which I thought was a great line from the master who talks about Margaret as a mother. He says, worry, that's what you do, that's how you love her. Do you think worrying always has to be part of motherhood? I think sadly it is. As soon as, you know, as soon as there's a little person born you start your life's hijacked and suddenly the potential for something going wrong, which is let's face it huge, can take over. But worry is, you is, let's face it, huge, can take over. But worry is, you know, it's a thing that you can go to town on and you can also keep

yourself in check. And something horrendous happens in this family. A disaster happens with their young son. So, and Margaret will not be defeated by it. She keeps the world going, the domestic world going. The domestic atlas. She is the domestic atlas. Do you know this poem by UA Fanthalp Atlas? Oh, it's a great poem. If I knew it by heart, I'd do it in Irish.

Let's talk about you in the accent though. Were you at all daunted by that? What? Were you at all daunted by that? I was completely daunted because I was surrounded by Irish. Because Gabriel Byrne I mentioned and Pierce Brosnan who are Irish. They're Irish. And Emile De May. Yeah.

And then Anne Skelly and Donald, everyone was Irish. And I was I'm from North London and you know posh. So it's like, oh, God, I got to be. But I had a really good voice coach and I've always felt very home even if I didn't sound lightly in Ireland. And there's something about you know what it makes you feel like an accent changing the way you sound can bring out all bits of yourself that you never you know aren't adornment until you actually make the sound. So it made me feel all delicious. And you've said before that you do a lot of preparation for a role because you

find acting terrifying. Do you still find it terrifying? Oh of course it's utterly traumatic and it's a stupid way of earning a living. It's completely stupid but at the same time and it's a fantastic way of earning a living. I mean they're paying you to pretend, but because they're paying you, you know, you got to be really good. And there's so much made of it. So it was a lot of pressure. So, yeah.

So how did you do it for the accent, for example? What's the preparation? Oh, you get an accent coach. Yeah. And just daily or? Oh, you, you, you've sort of, um, um, You break down the sounds or the 26 different vowel sounds. You practice them or particularly the ones that don't come naturally to you. You listen, usually pick somebody in particular because there's Irish.

You don't just do a general Irish. You also specify. The more precise, the better. Everything is about precision. I think of every precise choice you make, the more particular and the greater hope it is to be real rather than a generalized thing. And with her, she's Dublin, then she moved over.

She's an outsider on the island. And then you have somebody listening to you. You know, the coach is on. But you know, Gabriel Byr on. But, you know, Gabriel Byrne, he said it was OK. So if he thought it was OK, then. You had the master, so to speak, telling you that. But with the film as well, I did find

it's so beautiful that it's almost like the scenery is another character. I know a lot of it was filmed in Dunnegalall, which is in the northwest, and Antrim in the northeast as well. What was it like to be on that set? Oh, you know, that was part of the gift of that. It was none of it was on a set. It was all real. So including the inside of a cottage, usually you have a built interior.

So you'll do all the exteriors and then three weeks later you'll pick up on the interiors. But this was just you walk straight out of the tiny cottage in which you filmed the kitchen shot out onto the cliff side of Merlot Bay. I mean like extraordinary, extraordinary landscapes and seascapes and air and also no signal. Oh yeah. So you could literally sell everyone. Sorry, can't get attached. And which in the 70s, for example, on any of the islands that were off Ireland, it would have been, I often thought like even when I was in Leitrim in the 70s,

it was more like the 1940s, you know what I mean? Yeah. For example, they wouldn't have had all the mod cons that they would have, perhaps in the big smoke of Dublin, for example. But I want to get back to the acting part of it again. So are you still you go into a role and then does the fear stop? Is it terrifying up until the point you take the role? No, it's just a little.

You can schedule your fear a bit. There's a schedule. Oh, I like this. You schedule between nine and ten. I'm going to be really terrified. The more you do it, you know there's a shape and that's the comfort of being old. You know. In our prime, you mean. In our prime.

Older or elder. We're elders. Elders is a good one. Elders. In Sanskrit, we know it's going to end, it's going to be a bit of a phase, you're gonna be terrified and convinced that something is gonna happen,

but then bit by bit, you won't be. Because also at the end of the day, it all goes so fast. You know, you do all this tons of prep and then it's over in a second. You're talking about moments. You do all this tons of prep and then it's over in a second. Yeah.

You're talking about moments. Um, and so what I try and do is do so much prep that then I can sit on that prep. Like a big fat, it's almost like an iceberg. It's underneath. I'm changing my metaphors in a second. I'm liking it. But it's like, you know, the iceberg in the top bit is over the water. Yeah.

Then underneath is this great big foundation. So no matter what happens, you've got it. And not only that, you've walked on set and you convince yourself that you know and are justified in playing the character. And you know, also with film, there's so many variables, you don't know who's, and you know it backwards, so you can play it backwards. And then, hopefully, you've done so much prep, you're actually relaxed. It gives you the confidence.

Yeah, I mean, you can't do anything else. You wouldn't be able to do any other, but that part, and for that day, and that character, that's, yeah. You're immersed. I haven't been articulate that character, that's it. Yeah. You're immersed. I haven't been articulate this morning, but it's I think you have. I'm totally following on it. You must do prep for this, didn't you?

Yeah, actually, as you were describing that, it reminds me and I kind of know when I've got to the point that I am comfortable no matter what happens. Then you just say, come at me. There are moments on which life turns, is a line in the film. I was reading about when you met your partner, it was a totally random thing. So do you believe on that? The moments when life. It's that thing, the book is about predestiny and is it destined? And well, definitely, I think there was, you know, there was a moment,

but we both discussed that it could so easily not have happened. That you went just to a location. Yeah, we went to a wedding that we almost, we might not have, either of us might have for different reasons. My mom wasn't that well, but then she decided that she could do it. And he had another reason. But and then it was a sliding door thing.

And years later, you're still together. He is a couple of decades younger than you. Big deal is often made of it. I'm wondering what you make of that. What do I make of it? Well, I mean, I'm just lucky. He's actually not his age, you know, that's the thing. I mean, one isn't totally, his chronological age isn't necessarily his

psychic age. He's a very mature man. So it's so much is made about age these days isn't it? It is. We talked about it a little the last time that you were on but I think it is funny that nobody bats an eyelid at times if somebody is significantly older than the woman but that it can make headlines if a woman is older than a man. Yeah. I know. It's whatever. That's what I think. I mean, you're lucky to find anyone, whatever the age is. And there's more aligned than not. Let me move on to another couple of aspects in addition to the film before I let you go. You're the first female president of the London Library. How does that feel?

I had the title. It's amazing. It's a wonderful title. I know. I thought I could do it. I just got to do it for the title. Um, it was a real honor. Uh, also first president, first actress. I mean, most of the presidents are writers, the previous presidents, and it's just a

string of, you know, you name it. What very, um, academic patriarchs, white older men like Carlisle, Tom Stoppard, T.S. Eliot, you know serious geniuses. How does it feel to be in that pantheon now? Well I feel complete fraud but they... Really? Yeah. I mean, I can't write. I mean, I can write a postcard, but it's...

Anyway, I understand it was about time a woman... I would probably have put a writer, but maybe I'll write something. But... Maybe you will. Yeah, when is the memoir going to come out? I don't know. It's just like what do I leave out? To be a pretty thin it's very hard to write a memoir. I got to write something at some point I think but the form Also, I've got a focus as you might have noticed that I've got a slight

Fragmented focus they sit down and finish something would be good. But no, the library is an amazing thing though, and it sits there in St James's Square, and it's like this sort of portal to a different time. And people, I think my main role is to sort of introduce it to young people and say, look, it's there and it's a great office. Anybody can go and study there. And you've got all these books and to get people off the phone that I think the place and the atmosphere of place and the strength of physical place is you know. You are a romantic. Oh I'm a total romantic yeah.

I think this intersects very well with being the first female president of the London Library. Yes, yes, I think so. Well, I like to go back in time, in my imagination. And that's basically, I suppose, and we share a lot, actors and writers, we're all about vanishing into our imagination and creating different worlds. And so I'm sort of just protecting that amazing time portal that is the London Library and encouraging people to discover it for themselves and then create their own walls. You are going back in time to 1970s California Avenue, I hear. Yes.

About to start filming. That's right. And I have to go northern. Oh really? That's why everything's sounding really strange. Yeah. No. Northern. That's why everything's sounding really strange. I'm learning a Northern accent and it's not now I'm going to really messed up because it's got the Irish in me. Yeah, it's a wonderful piece. It's a six-parter California Avenue and it's written and directed

by this visionary, I think, called Hugo Bleck. Filming with Bill Nye? Bill Nye and me are ex ballroom dancers and it's about a community of people who live in caravans and you don't quite know why they've ended up there and it's got Aaron Doherty and Tom Burke and it's really well if we do it right it's a lovely piece. When can we expect it? No idea we haven't even shot one bit. I suppose I should only one line I'd say.

I suppose I should let you bask instead in the four letters of love which is coming to cinemas from Friday, which is the 18th of July. And you'll come back to us again soon, I hope. I hope so. Sounding like what? Who the hell knows? Helen Bonham Carter, thank you so much for joining us this morning on Women's Hour. Always lovely to have you in. You too. Now, listener week, that will be coming up. You've suggested some brilliant topics in the past, living funerals, for example,

communal living, why women's haircuts cost so much more than men's. And we feature them on the programme. So just a few weeks away now from Listener Week in August. And I want to hear from you whether it's a thought provoking trend, a unique lifestyle, maybe living in a caravan, as Helena mentioned there, the situations that women navigate or you want perhaps to vent on something that drives you crazy. Ideas big or small we're going to read them all and we'd like to bring some of your suggestions to life. You can text WOMEN'S HOUR 84844

on social media it's at PBC WOMEN'S HOUR or you can email us through our website. Thanks for all your messages coming in on gaming, a lot of gamers out there. I remember my younger brother playing video games and my daughter now plays the same. My daughter is really good, she's just nine. Another, I'm a 55 year old director with an extremely serious job. I don't know what that is but it's extremely serious. I play PlayStation all the time because it's totally immersive, taking me away from the pressures and worries of my job. For a couple of hours I concentrate on killing very obvious bad guys and finding the best loot.

It's an escape. That's Joe in Devon. Keep them coming. I'll keep reading 84844 if you'd like to get in touch. Now I want to turn to the latest on a long running story on the excavation of a mass grave of babies and young children at Tum in County Galway in Ireland. It is due to begin later today. It'll be carried out at the site of an institution for unmarried mothers that operated between 1925 and 1961. You might have heard these institutions called Mother and Baby Homes Now, we broadcast a special program from the site on Women's Hour. That was last year.

We spoke to many of the people that were involved, mostly women, and they were very much pushing to get the investigation. Also, this excavation underway. One of the women who spoke to me was Anna Corrigan, whose family story has been at the heart of this discovery. She was born in Dublin, but back in 2012, she found out that she had two brothers born at the home. She told me about the impact that this had on her. Turned her life inside out. I mean, I was an only child,

rare as an only child, thought I was an infant unique. And as a result then, my children had no cousins, no uncles, no aunts from my side. So then when I found out that I had the two brothers, so there's whole family connections, so I need to know and my family needs to know because all this leads to intergenerational trauma. We need closure and the true child's that you've raised them. Anna Corkin there, well I'm joined now by journalist Alison O'Reilly from the Irish Examiner who's been writing about the Tune Baby scandal for 11 years. Good to have you back with us Alison. Some people will not have been following this story closely so

explain a little bit more in detail what exactly is happening today and welcome. Well this is the first ever mass grave exhumation taking place in Ireland and it's starting today. It comes off the back of a very long campaign to try and have this ground open. In 2014 it emerged that 796 children died in the Tew mother and baby home in Galway in the west of Ireland. So the mother and baby homes were dotted all over Ireland at the time they were sort of built in response to this so-called crisis of unmarried mothers. And at the time, you know, the church ran the country rather than the other way around.

And it was viewed to be worse than murder to be pregnant outside of marriage. And look, it happened all over the world. It happened in the UK as well, but unfortunately thousands of innocent women and children were forced through these awful places that were run by the religious orders. And the Tew Mother and Baby Home was the first home

out of hundreds, now there were hundreds of these places in Ireland, that we discovered that the children were buried in a disused sewage tank. That research came off the back of work that Catherine Corliss was doing, a local historian who was writing a research paper about Tum and the home and children were buried in mass graves all over Ireland when they died in these homes. But this was the first time we got their names, their ages and their causes of death. So we have a register of 796 children, but I understand that there's nearly up to a thousand children linked to that home

that would have been in the Glenamaddie home that was the first home then they moved to Tum. There were 80 children who died in the hospitals because obviously women had complicated pregnancies and were rushed from Tum to the hospitals and then other children died in surrounding hospitals. But we've 796 names that we know of but there could be up to a thousand. So today marks the first day of the actual breaking of the ground in this centre of the Dublin Road housing estate. You know, we spoke to you last year, we were down at that particular site as well, just to remind people, it's really at the back of a housing estate. You know, unless you knew what was there,

it might be difficult to imagine that history and, of course, heartbreaking and devastating for so many that are involved. But I'm wondering how it is in that small Irish town that this is actually happening, because it has been 11 years, for example, since you broke that news to the world. There was rumors and previous stories previously in the town about what might be on that site. But this day is momentous. Yeah, it's very surreal. And to be honest, I mean, I spoke to you last year and I said, I'll believe it when I see it. And last Monday I did see it.

I saw the world's media descend on that tiny town in Tum. And I saw Daniel MacSweeney, the director of this intervention, alongside forensic specialist Dr. Neve McCullough, speaking about how they're going to excavate 5000 square metres of that whole area in the centre of the Dublin Road housing estate, which as you said was built after the home was knocked. There was mixed reaction all over the town.

My sister lived there for 13 years, never knew anything about it. I knew Tum well. So I was very surprised when Anna Kargan contacted me in 2014 to say she believed she had two brothers that were among 800 children buried in a mass grave in Tum. Some people were absolutely welcoming it, thinking this was a freeing of the town, a freeing of these children. Some people were very against it and just thought, just let sleeping dogs lie, which unfortunately happens everywhere. There'll always be a few that will say leave it as it is, but I would

always argue that how can you leave children lying in the bottom of a disused sewage tank? The Irish are very well known for their annual blessings of the grave and it's a big tradition that we have for mourning the dead. And how have for mourning the dead. And how is this mourning the dead? This is utterly disgraceful. There were also some people who didn't even know about it, and people who weren't bothered about it. I just felt very surreal. It's very surreal, to be honest with you. It's been a very long road, but it's no way to have treated children and it's definitely no way to discard them in a sewage tank like that was disgraceful.

There was, for example, the home was run by the Catholic Order of the Bonsacouras Sisters. It was owned by Galway County Council. They have, the Bonsacour sisters and the Galway County Council have previously apologised in 2021. The Irish Taoiseach Prime Minister, Micheál Martin, apologised for the profound and generational wrong to survivors of the home. I remember speaking to you and others that were involved, who were angry and felt that accountability would never happen. Do you feel with this development today that there might be accountability in the way that you want? Well I suppose, well no is the answer because you know from from day one I had spoken to the Bonsacres religious run order that ran this home on behalf of the state. And at the time in 2014 the leader of

the religious order, Sister Mary Ryan, had said to me she'd no idea about what I was talking about when I put in my rights of reply questions but had previously, a year earlier, written to Anna Corrigan to say her brother was probably buried in this little children's grave at the back of the home. Dr. Niamh McCullough, the forensic specialist who's leading this along with Orin Finnegan, she has basically said that if there is some evidence of a child dying unnaturally, they will contact the Gardaí, the Irish police and the coroner. But apart from that, that's really it. And remember, these are tiny little bones that will be very hard to find.

So, you know, to see if somebody had died from a violent death, who will be held accountable? And also, I remember from that time, bones commingled as well with a lot of years I'm talking about from the 1920s through to the 1960s. I should also say that the Bonsacura sisters did make a contribution, I understand, of two point one four million to the cost of the excavation as part of this story as well. But for people like Anna Corrigan, Paul Ford was another person who was on our

program. If you want to go back and listen to that, it's on BBC Sounds for September the 30th, Women's Hour, and they spoke so beautifully really about what this meant to them. But because what they're hoping to do is have forensic DNA and try and identify. But how long might this process take, Alison? Well, we've been told from the outset that it could take up to two years. However, that is all depending on what they find and Daniel McSweeney, the director of the intervention, has been very clear from day one. They don't know what they're going to find, they don't know what they're going to uncover, so they kind of have to take it as it comes. They're dealing with one of the most complex mass graves that anyone could ever excavate and it's unique because it contains hundreds of remains of children and babies and you

know premature babies and so they are going to use the methods of teeth looking at teeth and also teeth that haven't erupted yet so this is you know this is a method that has been used in the last 30 decades. And this is something that they'll be trying to do when they are looking at DNA. You have been so immersed in this story. I'm wondering how you're feeling today. I actually, do you know what, to be honest, you know, they say as a journalist, you're not supposed to be involved.

But how can you not be involved when you've worked on something for so long? It's the biggest story of my career and it involves children. And I'm a mother. So to be honest with you, I was very emotional on Saturday. I cried nearly the whole day and I feel quite emotional this morning. How can you not be impacted by it? How can you not feel I'm a human being? You know, I'm a mother, I'm a foster parent, I see terrible things happen to children in my personal life and in my professional life so I do

actually feel quite emotional but I'm also extremely proud that I played a small role in this very, very important story. And my thoughts are with those children who were treated like they were nothing. I'm treated, my thoughts are with the families and all of the campaigners and Catherine Corliss and everybody who tried to make this happen. We'll continue following it. I want to thank you, Alison O'Reilly. Her piece is in The Irish Examiner, yesterday's edition. If you'd like to read up on it, she'll continue, of course, reporting on it as well. If you have been affected by anything you've heard in the program today,

please do head to the BBC Action Line website for support. Now we are moving on to gaming. Shall I read some of your comments that have been coming in as asking if you're gamers, how and where and why and when. Let me see, I don't think there's enough recognition of gaming as an activity for couples. My husband and I bonded over our shared love of gaming. Our honeymoon was playing Borderlands 2 while we saved for a flat deposit. And now with a young child, we explore stories, we visit new worlds,

we solve mysteries and complete missions in our evenings together. We don't need a babysitter to have a date night. Oh, there is an underappreciated romance to gaming together. We communicate, collaborate, encourage and celebrate together. It's a joy. Chloe, in her early 40s, St. Leonard's Island. See, somebody needs to hire that woman to be to do the marketing, I think I think for gaming because today we are

starting a new series on women's hour we are taking a deep dive into the world of women and gaming. We're going to be heading out throughout this week and find what gaming means to women speaking to those working in the industry and gathering a panel of voices to discuss what needs to change to make the gaming world a more inclusive space. Now, it is an industry, listen to this, that's worth more than music, TV and film combined, valued at seven point eight two billion in twenty twenty three. So we want to talk first about the impact that it has in our lives,

whether we realize it or not, of course, where women come into that. Some of you have been answering that question this morning for me. And I'm joined in the studio by video game reporter and e-sports presenter, Frankie Ward. Good morning, Frankie. Good morning. And Alice, a video game streamer on a platform called Twitch. Many of you will be familiar with that.

That is also known as Aliska Online. Good morning. Welcome to both of you. Right. Let's go into it. I gave a couple of the figures there, Frankie, but how would you get across to our listeners just how booming this industry is? I mean, it is a industry that allows you to be anyone and play on any digital platform you fancy. In fact, you can also play on tabletop games or paper and pen. That would still count as a type of gaming, but I know we're focused on video gaming here. So, you know, you can also play on tabletop games with paper and pen that would still count as a type of gaming, but I know we're focused on video gaming here. So you can basically play a video game in any country and bond with anyone from anywhere just by simply mentioning your favorite character.

But when I started thinking about gaming, it was slightly different preparing, we were talking about preparation earlier with Helena. It's the whole thing, you call Wurdle a game. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Animal Crossing. Definitely. Now you see, I was always thinking more of Call of Duty, for example, or Grand Theft Auto. But that's the type of genre of game. That's like a blockbuster game. You know, your Grand Theft Autos, when Grand Theft Auto 6 comes out, it's a bit like when Lady Gaga releases an album or Taylor Swift, no one wants to release an album that same week, that's what's going to happen with GTA 6. And Call of Duty, it's a game that's been huge for years now, it's a phenomenon, it's

culturally in the mainstream, but it's also been heavily marketed for years. So of course we're aware of it, but it's always been marketed to men. You've got these new creative games that are coming out and some long standing franchises like Animal Crossing that maybe haven't been quite so in your face, not all over the billboards, but they have such a loyal and dedicated following. It's such a good comparison actually, because there's loads of music that is not Gaga or Swift. But yeah, so let's think of it with that with gaming. Also, there was always this long-held concept that the majority of gamers are men, but I'm seeing it's almost half women now.

Totally half women. Again, it's just that who is being marketed to, or who historically has been marketed to in the past. I think that has set this conception that really began in the 90s and has kind of carried through slightly to the present day. But actually, it's not the case anymore. Women are being a lot more vocal about the fact that they're gamers, and they're becoming a lot more proud to say so. I think in the past, gamers kind of been this protected identity that men have held onto very strongly and being like, this is where we belong. But actually, I think a lot more women are coming forward and saying, actually, me too. And I don't know whether people had the concept of gamer, you think a darkened

room on one of like, on a lazy boy kind of chair, you know, with a joystick and not coming out for hours and hours at a time. That's outdated. You're going to tell me, Alice. Oh, yeah, definitely. Like on Twitch, there are so many women who have incredible backgrounds just for their gaming room, like a streaming setup you will spend months, maybe even years investing into and spending so much time collecting everything that will go with this gaming setup. OK, so you're a streamer. You broadcast yourself playing games live online.

Tell me about your room. Oh, my room in the background. Well, I have other hobbies that I love to share. So I have so many plants that are basically taking over the room. It's nice and bright. I also collect special edition books. So I have a whole bookcase dedicated to that. I have like an area where my dogs can sleep.

So it's not like a dark, dingy room. It's very bright. It's got a pink wall in the background. Just very feminine and girly. Who is your audience? Mainly men. I would say 90% men. But I think that is depending on the game I play. I do notice though that there have been a lot more women recently coming into my stream, which I'm very grateful for. And can you explain the appeal, because maybe you do it for others, of watching somebody else playing a live video game? Is it like watching, I don't know, tennis?

I think it's slightly different. You're just sharing experience together. It's like why go to the cinema together or why watch a TV show together? You want to share that experience. And I think if you've played the game yourself, then you want to see someone else's reaction to it and see how they are going to react to a certain segment. Frankie. The thing about streaming a game on Twitch is it's also about this community that builds with you. So they're tuning into you to most of your streams and they know each other.

So people are having a conversation sometimes about their pets, not just about the game that you're playing. Maybe they've played the game that you're playing on stream and and they played it in a different way. So they want to discuss their approach to things. So it's a real community building exercise when you're streaming on Twitch. But isn't it interesting that some of the concepts about it as well probably outdated as we're kind of smashing them this morning, but that it's a solitary activity and that those that immerse themselves in it completely,

sometimes we think they might be lacking in social skills, making massive generalisations here. That's the thing, it's a generalisation that I think is very outdated and hopefully, with more women coming forward and saying, actually I'm playing that game as well, it's a stereotype that's going to go out the window very soon. We talked about some of those traditionally seen as male games with some of the more popular kind of those big releases. What are games are most popular with women? That's an interesting question, I think, because it's a risk to kind of say, right, only women play these games.

I think that's a discourse we see on social media and it can be a dangerous one. However, women are on the whole attracted to games that allow them to be creative, allow them to manage. So for example, like a game like the Sims where you get to control the lives of these beings, have fun, kind of toy with them, give them eventful deaths or, you know, let them let them them grow old and die gracefully. Um, but also puzzle games, games that really engage your mind, that tell a story while you're problem solving. I think those games definitely really appeal to women because at the end of the day, it's not about how skilled you are. It's not about what rank you are in game.

Are you platinum level in, in this first person shooter? It's about what that experience means to you as an individual. So those games that you're playing on your phone, you're a gamer? Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. The games you can play on your phones today are insane. I mean, they're the games that you play on a PC or console. Okay, so it's kind of just portable. Yeah, absolutely.

That's accessible. I literally have a controller that attaches to my phone in my handbag today. Genuinely. It can't get firm. I've seen it. We could do an item to my phone in my handbag today. Genuinely. I've seen it. We could do an item on what is in your handbag. That's a bigger issue. But Alice, let's talk about cosy gaming. What is that?

Cosy gaming is just how games make you feel like. When I think of cosy gaming, I think of a game where I can sit in my office, on the sofa, wherever you're comfortable, blanket, hot coffee, and just fully indulged in gaming. I feel like it depends for different people, but for me it's games like Animal Crossing where you can manage people or like farm. What is Animal Crossing? How would you describe that game? Animal Crossing is you're like this person in a village, you move to a brand new village and you pay this guy called Tom Nook to upgrade your house, you do village, you move to a brand new village and you pay this guy called Tom

Nook to upgrade your house, you do farming, you earn money that way, you make friends with the neighbors and it just, I don't know, it's just so immersive and it just makes you so happy to have these relationships with these characters. He does get you heavily into debt. Oh yeah, massive. Tom Nook is the enemy. He's a smiling raccoon enemy. He gave me anxiety.

I had a mortgage in real life and in game. I had to stop playing it. It was too much. But it gives you a sense of purpose and that thing that drives you through the game. So that's one and you know I mentioned it some people might be aware of that but others, there's many others. There's so many cosy games. I feel like The Sims is a classic cosy game where like Frankie said, you're managing people, you can set them on fire. But personally for me, a cosy game is an RPG where you can just role-playing game. So you can really indulge in the stories and characters.

So for me, like Baldur's Gate 3 is one of the best games of all time. And to me, that's cosy because I just fall in love with the characters and the storyline. And what are you getting from that, Frankie? Is it into a different world? Is it a stress reliever? Because also, coming back to some perhaps tropes about it, is that you think of somebody who's on a screen too much, of perhaps that it raises anxiety. Not talking about your mortgage.

You know what I mean in general? I mean, the reason I play games is the same reason why people read novels. I'm immersing myself in a story. So if I am playing a puzzle game, often there's a narrative that's running through that. And I'm driven to solve these things to find out what's in the next chapter, just like you're reading onwards to find out what's going to happen at the big climax of the story, right? So it's a similar thing to that. It's engaging my brain in a really refreshing way that the difference with gaming, obviously, it can be more time consuming, depending on the length of the

game. Some games can be an hour long, some games can be obviously 100 hours long. But also because I'm implicit in the story, the story cannot progress without me. I think it stays with you a lot longer and a lot of the cases with the games that I've played. That's interesting. Is it easy to be a live streamer? It has its pros and cons. I think when you are online, you're putting yourself out there. So there's a ton of lovely people out there, but there's also going to be people who critique you for what you do. And I think as a woman gamer,

you can definitely feel a lot more critique just for being a woman in a male-dominated industry. So for example I would play games that are really tough like from software games like Bloodborne Dark Souls and men would come into my chat and accuse me of cheating just because I defeated the boss better or like faster than they did. How dare you? I know how dare I. We're going to be talking about it all through this week. So I want to thank both of you for kickstarting us and getting some of the interest there when it comes to gaming.

That is Frankie and Alice. Do join us across the week. We're going to be digging deeper into women's relationship with gaming. Also, I'll be popping out to meet some people who are very into it as well. Tomorrow's program, I'll be speaking to Holly Jackson whose young adult books have sold more than 10 million copies and she'll be telling me why she's now written her first thriller for adults and it's called Not Quite Dead Yet. I'm in the middle of reading it as well. Tomorrow we will talk about it. I do hope you'll join me. 10am right here for

Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. We pulled into what felt like an old compound. You think, wow, this is a very old property. I'm Danny Robbins and Uncanny is back. We have three brand new summer special episodes and things are about to get scary. I could feel something moving up the side of the bed and I can't quite believe what I'm seeing.

A trip to a tiny medieval town in central Spain turns into a holiday from hell. I could make out its long matted fur and I am absolutely petrified, absolutely petrified. This was just pure terror. And we'll investigate more spine-chilling cases in an episode recorded live at the Hay Festival. Uncanny Hay audience, who is feeling? Team Believer, and who is team sceptic? Listen now on BBC Sounds.