Woman's Hour - Helena Merriman, Bus driver Tracey Scholes, Pardons for women tried as witches

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

Three years ago, BBC radio broadcaster Helena Merriman received a shock diagnosis related to hearing loss after giving birth to her son. This prompted her to explore how people handle life-changing news about their health in a new radio series called Room 5 that airs on Radio 4 this week. Helena joins Emma to discuss the power of resilience.One of the first female bus drivers in the UK says she is fighting to keep her job after a new bus design left her unable to reach the pedals. Emma speaks to Tracey Scholes from Manchester who says that because of her height - five feet - she can no longer drive the new buses safely. The bus company involved say other staff of a similar height to Tracey are able to drive the vehicles safely. New figures from the Office of National Statistics show that an estimated 1.3 million people in the UK have "long Covid" – defined as symptoms lasting more than four weeks. We know that women are more likely to be affected by long Covid, and that it can also occur in children. Dr Nisreen Alwan is Associate Professor in Public Health at the University of Southampton.In Sudan, thousands of people have again taken to the streets of the capital, Khartoum, to protest against military rule, following the resignation of Prime Minister Abdalla Hamdok. Reports from medics on the ground say more than 50 people have lost their lives since a military coup took place in October last year. For several years, there has been continued unrest in the country, and headlines around the world have shown women at the forefront of the revolution and pro-democracy movement - but is that the full story? And how are things for women there now? Raga Makawi, a Sudanese democracy activist and editor at African Arguments and Will Ross, the BBC's Africa Editor join Emma.Almost 300 years after the Witchcraft Acts were repealed, a bill has been bought forward in the Scottish parliament to pardon those convicted. This comes after a two-year campaign to clear the names of nearly 4,000 people accused of witchcraft, of whom well over half were executed. Zoe Venditozzi co-founded the campaign and co-hosts the Witches of Scotland podcast. Marion Gibson is Professor of Renaissance and Magical Literatures at the University of Essex and author of Witchcraft: the basics.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello, good morning to you, welcome to the programme. Another Monday, another week, here we go again together. But for Tracey Scholes, a 57-year-old from Manchester, one of the first female bus drivers in the city. It is crunch week. She faces her second appeal to recoup her lost earnings after she was put on a different bus route after she says she was too short at five feet tall to drive a newly designed bus. She's been

driving buses for the last 34 years, but since the company she works for changed the positioning of the wing mirrors, meaning she had to lean around a pillar to see them and then couldn't keep her feet on the pedals, Tracey says she wasn't allowed to keep driving for the same pay. Well, I'm going to talk to her shortly. You'll hear the details of her case, including the fact that more than 20,000 people have signed a petition to support her. But having been one of the first women in Manchester to drive a bus, she has plenty of experience of making a world designed by men for men work for her. Not least from her initial interview where she was told apparently including climbing on the dashboard to change the bus route number, as well as, of course, dealing with some of the sexual harassment that came her way, because as she puts it, she wanted to pave the way for women to come and drive. As of last year,

I had no idea of this figure, actually, about 84% of bus drivers were still men. What in your world has been designed for men and left you perhaps as a woman having to find a workaround? It could be something practical. It could be something within a workplace culture. And how have you handled it? Text me your experiences here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate or on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website. I should say that the bus company that Tracey has been working for

say that they have offered other options to Tracey and I'll read out their statement in just a moment after we've heard from Tracey and her side of things. But I suppose broadening out in a world which has been largely designed by men for men, whether it's men's physicality, whether it's how men tend to operate in certain things or presumptions that have been made, whether that's around culture or interactions between people, whether that's in

medicine. We're going to talk about diagnoses today. What have you had to grapple with that wasn't quite working for you, you believe, because you're a woman? Let me know. Also on today's programme, as ministers talk over the weekend about the UK leading the move from pandemic to endemic COVID, we can discuss what that means. New figures from the Office of National Statistics show that an estimated 1.3 million people in the UK have long COVID. How are they being considered? Why one woman has decided her hearing has to take precedence over having another baby. And nearly 300 years on, are witches about to be pardoned in Scotland? All that to come on the programme, but please do get in touch, as you always do. Let's hear then from Tracey Scholes from Hayward in Manchester, five feet tall, and says now because of her height,

she can no longer drive these new buses safely. Tracey, good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us today. Just from your point of view, I've tried to explain it. What is the issue? Because you have been driving buses for more than three decades. It's just that I've never had a problem driving any of the vehicles in 34 years.

But they have moved one of the mirrors on certain vehicles and they've moved the position. And also we've got an assault screen with a pulse that holds the assault screen together. And it's caused a blind spot for me. Me being short, I can't push my seat back and look around the pulse. And effectively, it's not safe for me to drive because I can't reach the pedals safely.

Also, I've got part of my vision that's been covered by this pulse. And if anybody came up the near side of the vehicle, perhaps a cyclist or a pedestrian, potentially I wouldn't see them. And if anything happened to them, God forbid, it'd be my job and I'd be sacked for it. It'd be my fault. And you raised this with Go northwest the bus company yes about two years ago and what what was their response to you initially it was we worked together i wanted to get a resolution i didn't want to um cause any trouble i don't want to stand out you know i'm a female driver in a male a male world and I just wanted to be able to do the job like everybody else

and and I've worked around a lot of things being pregnant in the industry and paved the way for women and and find a solution I wanted to find a solution so I knocked on the door I went to find a solution. So I knocked on the door, went to the management, and they provided me with a service that was more or less the vehicles I could drive. And I managed that for approximately two years, which was the same service, which was a 17 Rochdale to Manchester service. And that worked for quite some time until more of the fleet and the mirrors got changed. And then I was struggling then. So this time i've gone and said the problems arising changed me and put me on a different route which i agreed to i was quite happy to do that loved it and obviously the problems car came back again because more and more of these vehicles are being changed and and it's

making me impossible now to do my job so there is a safety concern there and i did break i did broach this with management and i went and knocked on the door proactively to ask for help and i got a straight flat no we're not putting them back we're not changing them back i am aware that there's a depot in oldham that did have this problem where their vehicles and their drivers refused to drive them and I do believe that they put the mirrors back to how they was in the position.

A spokesperson for the bus company Go Northwest has said, Tracy was a valued member of our team, we're extremely sorry to see her go, just referencing there Oldham, I don't know the details of that but just to carry on with what they have to say the design of the mirrors on our buses was agreed after consultation with the Union Unite some time ago.

All other drivers of similar height to Tracy are able to view them safely. When Tracy raised concern with this, we made numerous proposals to accommodate her, including offering to push her on different routes, different types of buses. Unfortunately, all of our suggestions were rejected. Dedicated, experienced, hardworking bus drivers are difficult to find

so we'd never act lightly in a situation like this and we're sorry that we were left with no choice but to bring this driver's employment to an end. What would you say to that point there, that all of our other drivers of similar height to Tracy are able to view them safely? I think if they looked into the history of the defect cards and the complaints that drivers have had,

although a lot of them haven't put it in writing, I was the one that went to management and asked for help to the solution. But it's not just me. Although I'm a woman and I'm short and I do struggle, but there's other drivers that are similar in stature. And, you know, your driving position, you have to have a safe driving position. And everybody, some change, you know, some sit nearer to the steering wheel, some sit further back, some sit higher, some sit lower. And I can adjust the seats and make adjustments to a certain extent.

But this, I cannot make an adjustment to be able to see safely. And the issue that you're saying here is you've been offered other routes, but it won't make up the same money that you were already on. Yeah, it's because I have a mortgage to pay. I've got three children to support. And, you know, the hours that I do do is 25 hours a week. And the actual duty they've offered me was 20 hours a week. But it's a £3,000 pay cut a year, which I'm on a budget now.

I'm widowed. I haven't got that financial backing to actually live off that kind of money. And it's not my fault. I've not done anything wrong and I've asked for help. And it's a second appeal this week? Yeah, yeah. How are you feeling ahead of that? Not great.

I feel like I've hit a brick wall. I've begged for my job back. I've hit a brick wall. I've begged for my job back. I've given solutions. I'm hoping now that all I want is my job back. I just want to come in and do my job. I can imagine the uncertainty has been extremely stressful, to say the least. I've never, ever put a grievance in.

I've never been suspended. I've never been sacked. And I just feel like this is not my fault. And there is a solution, I'm sure. And I've offered solutions. And I'm sure that they could work around it. I do know they've got to provide buses for low bridges. There's a certain spec of vehicles like free buses in town.

They have the set livery on them. And I just feel like I'm being managed out of the business. I just think it's a cost-saving exercise. And I just think that they're trying to get rid of me because it's a cheaper option. I don't think... Are you concerned that those who are the similar height, women or men, and are continuing to drive,

either have raised issues and are not being listened to, or are just carrying on with it because they have to. And that's just the reality. And perhaps they also are having the same issues that you describe. The majority of drivers are writing it in the description in the actual defect card. And that's the procedure, what we have. If they're not safe in the vehicle or they've got a problem, they write it. And I think it's not being assessed or looked at.

And I think it's being signed off probably by the foreman and it's not being investigated. Because that's quite a serious situation, that if people are driving and they don't feel safe, and then other people are not. I think also now, they're frightened to say anything now. I think certain drivers are being prompted to say things and they feel like the job's, you know, not safe if they do say anything, if they raise an issue. Well, the bus company Go Northwest, as I say, have stressed that they wanted to sort it out with you and that all other drivers of a similar height to

you are able to view this safely. Of course, the day in court is this week. Is it tomorrow? It's tomorrow at two o'clock. Can I also add as well that Unite have never agreed to this. I've never seen any paperwork. So these changes you're talking about? I've never seen any paperwork and there's been no're talking about? I've never seen any paperwork and there's been no agreement that I've been told of. I mean, the fact that Oldham Depot have refused to drive these

vehicles, that shows there is a problem. The fact that they've changed the mirrors back, that shows there is a problem. At this point, I don't have the detail across that particular area, but what I will say is Sharon Graham, I don't have the detail across that particular area. But what I will say is Sharon Graham, who is the relatively new Secretary General of Unite,

has tweeted this statement saying, it seems inconceivable that due to the blind intransigence of its local management in Manchester, Go Ahead is now ready to watch unlimited damage to its international reputation as a result of the tawdry treatment of Tracey Scholes. Tracey, just to say, I mean, more than 20,000 people have signed a petition in support of you trying to find, I suppose, some sort of solution.

Has that been any comfort during this time of, you know, as you see it, standing up to your employers? The response I've had has been overwhelming and it is emotional. And I've having, even now my phone's red hot, and I'm having messages from people all over the world, all over the country. Even, just to give you an example, a man gave one of our full-time officers his number and said,

she struggles any financial hardship. Just get in touch with me and keep, I don't even know this person. For people to, and the well wishes, even like James Quinn, absolute rock, when we was on strike for fire and rehire, they came, Julie Hesmond and Vaccine P, they came and supported us in, I suppose, in a world which they sometimes feel excludes their needs and doesn't think about them. Has it been a difficult time or how would you describe being certainly one of the first female bus drivers in your career?

How have you found trying to break into that world and being in that world? It's been archaic sometimes. It's been difficult. But I've always gone in with an approach. They don't understand. They don't know. They don't know what it's like. It is that kind of an industry. They do try and they do meet your needs. I've had a good working relationship with management in the past. Would you recommend being a bus driver to other women this circumstance uh excluded um i would yeah but i think that there

could be more changes and i think there could be more adaptations um being pregnant when i was for the first lady to be pregnant and when i was married there were things that we encountered both of us and we've tried to work through it and we did find solutions and they were brilliant I had a managing director called Denis Adjikovic and he was fair I went in I needed time to bring my children up and this is why I've gone on you know reduced hours reduced hours. And he helped me with that. And he said, don't let me down. And I didn't do. And I respected him.

And he was absolutely fantastic. I've always really, any problems, I've always gone and sorted it out with them. Even climbing on a dashboard? Oh, yeah. When I was pregnant, I used to have a ticket machine with a box. Every driver had this. So I used to stand on that. We didn't have digital blinds.

We had like ratchet. They were like a thing. But a lot of them were stiff, you know, and as you can imagine, mechanical. So I used to either have to stand on the ticket machine box. And if I couldn't reach that, I'd kind of lean, like climb on the dash and like edge myself up. But obviously when I got bigger the more pregnant i was the the less i could do it so they even like got to the stage where they send an inspector down

to change my numbers i just i'm just imagining the scene of you on a dashboard getting bigger and i'd be driving with the wrong destination on because i couldn't change it and people would be waving at me saying it's wrong um but after that they said look we're gonna have to do find something else for you now and then they said will you come into the office and and and do that and do some office work and admin so I am flexible I mean you sound Tracy you sound like you've got a book's worth of stories um when you get past this particular uh junction if I can put it like that. Tracey Scholes, thank you very much for talking to me and to all of us this morning. Many messages coming in with regards to design and circumstances that you found yourself in. Just to say a message here from Andy says, good on Tracey for speaking out about a safety issue.

She's displaying courageous behaviour. Another one. It's not just women as a five foot inch man. I struggle with things being designed for the average six foot man. Seatbelts, says this message from Carol, not designed for women. They either cut into your shoulder, neck or make your bust feel uncomfortable. Can women please design these in 2022? Another one here with regards to design, designed by tall men, steps on buses at airports, coaches with high steps, train carriages with huge gaps between the platform and the carriages. And that's from Marion Brighton. And of course, that's not even getting onto how things are not designed for those with disabilities. And Christine says, also DIY tools. I have a cordless sander. It is impossible for me to remove the battery in order to charge it as the fixings are designed for a man's larger hands. How do I solve it? The only way is to ask my husband to release it. Women do DIY too. A lot of frustration in this message and lots of exclamation points. Thank you for a great programme. Well, thank you for being with us, Christine. And just one more here before we go to our next discussion. Women in men's professions. I'm a consultant surgeon currently off sick for 12 months with long COVID.

Well, that'll take us into our next discussion. Surgical instruments have traditionally been made for man-sized hands. We women have had to make adjustments as we go along. Some of the companies are now making instruments with smaller handles, which is a great improvement, particularly the single-use energy devices used in major abdominal surgery. No name on that message, but do hope you're feeling a little better

as you are off work at the moment. Well, you mentioned long COVID. As the push to vaccinate continues with a particular focus on pregnant women again today, and ministers saying over the weekend that the UK should lead the move from pandemic to endemic COVID. We can perhaps discuss what that means. Also, new figures from the Office of National Statistics show that an estimated 1.3 million people in the UK have long COVID, which is defined as symptoms lasting more than four weeks.

We know that women are more likely to be affected by it and that it can also affect children. I'm joined now by Dr Nisreen Alwan, Associate Professor in Public Health at the University of Southampton, who also has personal experience of this. Good morning. Good morning. Well, we just heard from someone who's listening at home who's off sick at the moment with long Covid, which is quite a sobering way to come into this discussion. 1.3 million people. Just how do we kind of imagine this and how it's affecting people and how it's playing out at the moment? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's a very concerning figure. And I just want to point out, you mentioned the four-week cutoff, actually about half a million within these figures have

had long COVID for over a year. And about two thirds say that it affects their day-to-day activities. So, and about a quarter of a million say that their ability to do their day-to-day activity is limited a lot. So for many, many people, it's quite debilitating. Like you had your text message from um the surgeon there being of sick and it seems to be that working age people um in that age group sort of 35 to 69 have the highest um kind of burden uh but it occurs in all age groups including in children um uh but also uh more likely in people living in deprived area and also people in frontline professions like healthcare,

social care and teaching and education, which seem to be witnessing a rise in those kind of regular figures of long COVID. I noticed there are a few pieces also in the Sunday papers about those who've had COVID a couple of times, so those who've been reinfected. And they were trying to draw some trends, the science reporters, about this. Do we know who, you just said the profile of those who are more likely to get long COVID, but do we know anything about why some people are more prone to it? We still really don't know the answer to this question. We know, as I said, some people are more likely to have it, but we don't. And that's the problem when we talk about

protecting the vulnerable and that when you look at long COVID as an outcome, which as you can be discussing now, a huge burden on society, we don't really know who the vulnerable is. And there are many, you know, people who are getting it. Women are slightly more likely to get it than men. But again, the differences are not, you know, are not big. So reinfection seems to be, you know, rising, definitely Omicron seems to be, do more, have more reinfections than Delta. Delta did more than the previous variant, about 10%, maybe about of new infections and reinfections. So yeah, the good news, I suppose, in the reinfection, you know, protecting also against reinfection is that people who have had previous COVID and then had the vaccines, they seem to mount higher immunity against having it again.

So vaccines is a good thing in this context as well. And do we know yet about the latest variant, about Omicron and long COVID? Have we got any insight into that? Not really. It's still quite early on to say. I think the things to consider with Omicron, again, with vaccines, there is some emerging evidence that vaccines could lower the risk of long COVID. So first of all, vaccine,

if they lower your risk of infections in the first place, then obviously they're lowering your risk of long COVID. But also if you get an infection post vaccine, there is some emerging evidence that, you know, there's a reduced risk of long COVID. So and that depends on the variant and the doses, the number of doses you've had. So how much long COVID Omicron generates also depends on when you had your vaccine and how many doses you've had. But we'll know soon. I think the thing, this really important thing about Omicron is that even if it generates, say I'm hypothetically saying it generates because of the vaccines, et cetera, generates a quarter or half of case for long COVID.

The numbers infected are so huge with Omicron that you might end up with the same or even bigger, you know, long COVID burden. I mean, we've got the latest figures is one in 15 people in England have COVID, phenomenal infection rates. So we always need to have the context of how many are getting infected when we talk about long COVID. I mentioned you had personal experience of this, you know, how are you now? Yeah, am um much better than much better in terms of long cover the thing about long cover than many people might identify without what I'm saying when they hear it is it's got this um it comes and goes for many people it's got this

fluctuating relapsing nature people of um including me said over and over again oh we've recovered it's gone and then you know then it kind of the symptoms, we've recovered, it's gone. And then, you know, then it kind of the symptoms hit you back again. So it's got this unpredictable nature. And I've experienced this myself. And what I did, and I think many others do as well as learn to adapt, you know, their activities, what they do so that they experience the minimize their experience, you know, of the symptoms. But yeah, so'm much better i still um i i i'm very now cautious i've did several times before just to tell you i've completely recovered but how long would you say it sort of lasted for you take taking in when it began and then the

relapses yeah i mean it began march 2020 so, really, that's when I got the infection. And the last sort of kind of period of symptoms I had was, you know, around October, November time. But it is it is better when I get it. It's shorter and it's better. Very difficult to know whether that's because I am. I learned how to deal with it better. We're doing a programme that seems to be about women doing work rounds, figuring out how to make things work regardless. Just a final thought from you, if I can, as a professor, Associate Professor in Public Health.

I talked about this idea of moving from pandemic to endemic COVID, the idea of living with it and moving away from being a pandemic. Do you think, what's your understanding of that? And do you think we're anywhere near that? We're not really. We're seeing with Omicron an exponential rise in COVID. So I don't think we're near that. And we need to have this.

The vaccines are great, but we need to have the vaccine plus approach. And I just, I mentioned also children, I think definitely with school mix, you know, we might see, you know, how much more infection we'll see. Well, we'll know in the next few weeks, but we need to protect children as well from infection. As I said, about one hundred and seventeen thousand estimated with long COVID in those Office of National Statistics estimates. These are for children aged two to 16-year-olds, about 20,000 for every year. So these are not numbers to dismiss, really. So we need to continue to protect children.

So one thing is, for example, the vaccination is something that's been declared to be safe and effective by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency in the UK. And we really hope that they could help as well in terms of the 5 to 11 year old age band. It's an important point to raise there. Dr. Nisreen Olon, I hope you stay well. Thank you very much for talking to us today. Associate Professor in Public Health at the University of Southampton. Your message is still coming in with regards to difficulties around design, specifically as women. In many of the UK's leading universities,

this message reads, the ageing science and engineering buildings still have many more toilets for men than women, a reflection of the demographic makeup of these disciplines back in the day. Still an issue now in many settings. I have to go three floors up or down for a wee when the men can pop next door. It's both a reminder of how far we've come, but how far we have to go, literally. I would hope the gender classification is being removed from these facilities now, an example of how properly considering access for trans colleagues and students will have great benefit for everyone identifying as a woman. It's also interesting to consider things designed by men for women. In the 2000s, there was a growing market for women's mountain bikes. Unfortunately, many were designed by men based on a number of lazy assumptions. This

resulted in a few makers producing bikes with lesser technical specifications in pastel colours with flowers on them. More messages coming in with regards also to our conversation with Tracy about her case to do with driving buses. Not an issue just for short female drivers, but a longstanding issue, which has cost lives. How on earth has this modification passed strict recertification processes? Reads one question.

Another one here. I've also had this issue with trying to find a car. I empathise completely. At five foot two, I find it very difficult to find a modern car designed for me to drive safely.

In fact, impossible. Airbags risk blinding me because the seat has to be too close to the wheel and able to reach the pedals. On the few occasions, the wheel has a rake to get to the right position. In fact, I'm finding it impossible. Thank you for these messages coming in.

Keep them coming in on 84844. That's the number you need. Now, there's always a room where it happens, where a doctor solves a medical mystery by providing a diagnosis, leaving the patient changed forever. You may remember that moment, whatever your diagnosis has been in your life, if you've got one, of course. For BBC broadcaster Helena Merriman, it happened three years ago and the room was Room 5. It's the title of her new Radio 4 series and podcast, beginning tomorrow, here at Radio 4 at 9am.

It tells the story, eight stories of people's life-changing medical moments and their process of recovery. Helena herself was diagnosed with a degenerative hearing condition after the birth of her son three years ago. Good morning. Morning, Emma. What were you diagnosed with? Let's start there. It's a condition called otosclerosis.

So it's something I'd never heard of. In fact, I remember when I sat in the room and I was given a diagnosis, trying to write it down in a biro and all my journalistic skills failed me because I didn't get the man to spell it out. So I remember going home and sort of Googling this combination of letters and trying to find out what the name was. But I'd never heard of it. And it's, as I said, it's called otosclerosis. And it's a degenerative hearing condition, where people, you know, eventually lose most of the hearing, sometimes in one ear, sometimes in both ears. And you found this out because of something on the home front, you weren't being able to hear things going on at home?

Yeah, so it was four months after my son Sam was born and I, you know, remember those middle of the night wake-ups when you hear the squawks of your baby and you tread upstairs and you try and sort them out. And then I remember one night waking up and realising my husband wasn't in the bed next to me and I couldn't work out where he was. And then I suddenly saw him on the baby monitor holding our son Sam and I couldn't work out where he was. And then I suddenly saw him on the baby monitor holding our son, Sam, and I couldn't work out why I hadn't heard him. And at first I was sort of secretly delighted because I thought, right, it's not just down to me now. And I left it for a few weeks and I kept thinking, you know, the hearing will come back. And then during the day, I noticed I wasn't hearing other things as well. When I started

going out again, I would be in pubs and I was really having to focus on what, you know, my friend's lips to work out what they were saying. And so eventually went to my doctor and then I was referred to an audiologist and had the first of the series of hearing tests. And I still remember that moment. And I imagine lots of people have have maybe had something similar where you have a hearing test and you're sitting in that booth and you're given that joystick with a little button on top and you sit there and you you're willing yourself to be able to hear and you hear those beeps come in and I still remember the moment where I I

stopped being able to hear them but I could see the audiologist looking at the screen and so I realized there were beeps still playing but I just couldn't hear them and he came through showed me this graph and said you've lost a lot of the hearing in your in your right ear. And when you said there about your son you know you talked about the hearing and some of the issues then in the pub were you aware that you hadn't heard him because there was something wrong with your hearing or were you aware of it because you just hadn't woken up and you were in a deep sleep? Did you know it was a hearing issue? No, I didn't. And I think that's why, you know, for me and for a lot of people who are eventually diagnosed with otosclerosis, it can take years to happen because the decline happens quite slowly.

So I think probably for me, it had been happening over the last, I don't know, three, four, five years. And one of the great uncertainties for anyone who's diagnosed with it is just how quickly will it decline? And you just, no one can give you the answer. And what's the link with pregnancy and having a baby? So otosclerosis, it's essentially a bone disease, which affects the tiniest bone in your body, which is called the stapes. So, you know, for someone who doesn't have it, the way you're hearing would work is that you have, you know, when you're listening to my voice now, you have these sound waves that are coming towards you. So you have small little ripples for high pitch noises and then very big ripples for lower noises.

And then what happens is those vibrations hit your eardrum. And in a normal eardrum those vibrations are then sent to three tiny bones in your ear the malleus the incus and the stapes and they then funnel the sound into your cochlea which is this amazing uh labyrinth of bones that sort of sits deep inside your ear and that's when you hear but for people like me with otosclerosis the stapes gradually becomes more and more fixed and it fuses with the bone around it until you can no longer hear and that bone just stops working as it should do so you gradually gradually lose your hearing and the connection with pregnancy is that when you're pregnant your hormones are all over the place

and it can speed up your bone metabolism. So that bone that's already growing abnormally around your stapes grows even more abnormally. And so it doesn't cause the condition, but it essentially fast tracks it, which is why a lot of women like me only notice it after they're pregnant. And you've had two children? Yes, that's right. And I noticed it after the birth of my second child. Right. Because, you know, in terms of then if you wanted to have another child that you've made a decision based on this, I understand. Yeah. I mean, you know, we've been talking about having a third child and it was at that time that I discovered that there was this there was this link.

And so we decided not to. But, you know, I feel very, very lucky that we have the two children that we we do. And I'm very aware that for some women who were diagnosed with this, they make the decision not to have any children because they're worried about losing even more of their hearing. But the doctors made it very clear. They said, well, don't let that be a reason to not have children if you want to. Their advice is, you know, go ahead. Don't let it stop you having pregnancies if you want to have babies. There are options afterwards, whether that's hearing aids or an operation, which I then went on to have. So, I mean, for you, you have made that choice, which I imagine making it in that context is not how you imagined making it. But in terms of the the potential options having had the operation how

is it now for you yeah the operation was amazing I had I remember because you have it under local anesthetic so I watched the whole thing on a tv screen and saw as my surgeon lifted up my eardrum and then saw the stapes itself this bit of bone that that isn't working as it should do and then he pulls it out and then replaces it with this bit of bone that isn't working as it should do. And then he pulls it out and then replaces it with this bit of metal. And there was this extraordinary moment in the operating theatre where I was lying there. And 15 minutes beforehand, I hardly could hear anything out of my right ear. And then he hooks on this bit of metal into my ear, folds the eardrum back in place. And suddenly I could hear, you know, I could hear the music, I could hear the clattering of metal instruments. And I, I was

ecstatic, you know, this, this operation had restored my hearing. Then two hours later, this very loud kettle whistling noise kicked in, in that ear. And I was terrified that this was the sign that I was about to lose my hearing because in very rare cases, around 1% or often a little bit less, you can lose your hearing completely if you have this operation. So that was a big decision for me whether to have it or not and I was terrified that this was the beginning of my ear not having reacted well but it turns out I my hearing didn't go and for that I'm so incredibly grateful but I've been left with a fairly debilitating kind of tinnitus you know tinnitus is relatively common around one one in eight of us have it constantly uh but the tinnitus that I now have

it's this very loud yeah a sort of whistling kettle noise and I think a lot of the last few years has been spent trying to trying to adapt and learn to live with it. Can you hear that now is it all the time? Oh yeah yeah all the time I mean so for a while after in the weeks after it first arrived I would go and just hang out on the tube because that was the only place I couldn't hear the noise. And I would go round and round. I would take books on there and read and just anything to drown it out. But also with your line of work, I mean, this, you know, people do know your work, but if they don't, just to link you to, of course, Tunnel 29, you know, your extremely successful previous podcast, which told the story of daring escape from behind the Berlin Wall. I mean, it's so carefully crafted, lots of sound, lots of soundscape. I mean, how do you manage that in your particular line of work?

Yeah, that, I mean, I remember when I was first diagnosed, it was such a blow because my whole career is based around sound and hearing and music and crafting radio I've been a radio journalist my whole career and the thought of losing my hearing was yeah was was really terrifying um but then this operation that that restored it it's you know so often we we are diagnosed with things we have a particular course of treatment and it might go well, but it leaves us with something that we didn't expect. And for me, that was this new tinnitus. And yeah, it's hard. I mean, sometimes there are all sorts of tricks that I'm learning to do when I'm editing sound, where you can change the frequencies of a bit of audio that

you're editing. So it's in a frequency that's easier on my ears to listen to and it doesn't trigger my tinnitus. But it's also a lot of really kind on my ears to listen to and it doesn't trigger my tinnitus. But it's also a lot of really kind of boring things you have to start doing, like early nights and try not to be anywhere too noisy and not drinking too much alcohol. So it's sort of balancing those things, which definitely help the tinnitus, but also try not to get too isolated. Well, you've had to kind of produce your own background track, really, around the rest of your life. Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. I can't quite imagine it. I mean, I suppose also, I mean, maybe lockdown in some ways

has been quieter in meeting people outdoors and all that. Yeah, you're so right. Lockdown's been amazing, because I'm obsessed with acoustics now, as anyone who has tinnitus probably is. And, you know, this whole, like, modern European restaurants with hard, shiny surfaces. I hate it. And I've developed a love of old fashioned curry houses with really thick carpets that absorb the sound so you can really hear. Just take a rug with you, Helena, wherever you go.

I might start doing that. Oh, my gosh, though. What an achievement, I suppose, to be able to keep going in your line of work as well as everything else that's been going on and also to have been talking to people about their moment. You know, it is a real moment, a moment of diagnosis when you do finally find out it's not just in your mind and something is going on. And I'm really looking forward to listening. Probably won't listen live tomorrow at nine o'clock because I'll be preparing for Woman's Hour,

but I will listen in my own time on BBC Sounds. And it's lovely to hear you and talk to you this morning. Helena Merriman, thank you. Thank you. The programme tomorrow beginning at nine is called Room 5 and as I say you can also catch up in your own time. Just to say a couple of messages

come in still about design and I think this one's very much worth reading. This is also a race issue talking about things designed by men for men in a man's world. I'm a normal height for my ethnicity, 152 centimetres, but things are designed for Anglo-Saxon women. And another one here, starting a lawnmower with a pull cord. Impossible. Could someone please make one that starts with the turn of a key?

Garden strimmers, too heavy, too large. Women garden too. We need tools to suit our size. Although, do you remember when that pen came out? Obviously it wasn't a need, that big pen for women. Yeah, I suppose some manufacturers might be scared of doing that. Being thought to show that women are weaker in some way. But the design and the need is coming through very loudly

from you. I'm not in any way saying there was a design or a need for a lighter pen. But I think there are some fears out there from some manufacturers about looking like they're creating pink tools. A message here. I was a bus conductress in 1954. No problems even with the box.

Great canteen, no sexism, very best of all with admiration, says Zoe, who's listening in Leeds. Good morning to you. I'm also five foot. Even stuff supposedly for petite women is too big and kids stuff is not the right proportion either. Often get injuries, chairs too big.

So I've got a bad back, push bike too big. So I've got a leg injury. Can't get safety gear for work. So I'm at risk, etc. Read that message again. No name, but thank you very much for getting in touch. Now, we wanted to bring you up to date with events in Sudan, where thousands of people have been taking to the streets of the

capital Khartoum to protest against military rule leading to the resignation of the country's prime minister just under a week ago. Reports from Medics on the Ground, the pro-democracy Sudan Central Doctors Committee, say more than 50 people have lost their lives since a military coup took place in October at the end of last year. For several years, there has been unrest in the country. But certain reports have shown women at the forefront of this revolution and pro-democracy movement. But is that the full story? Raja McCoy, a Sudanese democracy activist and editor at African Arguments joins me now. But first, I'm just going to go to Will Ross, the BBC's Africa editor to bring us up to speed, Will, with what has been

going on. Because as I said, there's been years of violence and war in Sudan. But could you refresh our memory around the most recent swathe of protests from the end of 2018, how they erupted and why? Yes, well, basically, the problems for Sudan really were economic in 2018. And President Omar al-Bashir cut the subsidies that were in place for many years on food and fuel. And suddenly people found they couldn't afford to feed their families. And that led to protests in late 2018, which spread to the capital Khartoum. And basically the country became pretty much ungovernable.

And so the military stepped in to get rid of President Omar al-Bashir, capital Khartoum, and basically the country became pretty much ungovernable. And so the military stepped in to get rid of President Omar al-Bashir, who'd been there for 30 years. So those were the initial protests. And events in the last week? Well, what's happened in the last week really goes back to October when the military carried out basically a second coup in October last year, and people in Sudan were basically saying, we have had enough of the military's involvement in politics. We want the military out. We want a civilian-led government. And briefly,

the prime minister was reinstated, but people on the streets were saying, look, we don't want any deal where the military still has some power. So still, very frequently, we're seeing huge numbers of Sudanese heading out onto the streets, many women out there on the front lines in what are very dangerous conditions because we've seen in the past and it's still continued even over the weekend the military is prepared to open fire on protesters and we've also had quite a number of women and girls raped by the security forces clearly a tactic to to kind of intimidate the whole protest movement but at the moment we've got a very precarious situation with General Burhan in charge of the country, but most Sudanese saying we want the military out of politics

and we want a return to civilian rule, or they want civilian rule. But, you know, when you've got all these people out on the streets saying let's get the military out. And yet the military are there with their guns. It's a pretty precarious situation. Let's get Raja in on this. And I just wanted to start if I wanted, if I could, excuse me, with one of the more memorable images from the pro-democracy process in 2019. The so-called woman in white, because for some of our listeners, that might be the woman that comes to mind. Who was she and how did she fit into this

um hi rada hi so uh so the woman in white you know the iconic figure of the sudanese women atop of a car making her voice heard and chanting slogans of the revolution is and as important as that icon has become internationally, I think it has also carried within it the problematic notion of how historically the international community has always tended to reduce struggle or kind of international politics into a cultural icon.

And perhaps that isn't helpful. But in terms of the image that people may think of, I just wanted to start there really to then try and understand what's happening beneath that and what's going on for those women and girls that we are also seeing now on those front lines. So yes I mean the image of Alaa Salah obviously kind of contributes to kind of exploring the larger terrain how women actually came out to the street you you know, pouring in thousands and millions alongside their male fellow protesters.

You know, they occupied the street. They made their voices heard. But beyond that, at the grassroots level, women's kind of, you know, tangible organization has also kind of defined Sudanese politics from before the revolution, from before 2018. You've had historically tea sellers, for example, which were more affected, more than any other group in Sudan, by the astringent public order laws. They organized into unions to defend their livelihoods. Female students across different Sudanese universities demanded safe spaces free from sexual harassment and the directed male violence, as well as dedicated civil society forums working on reforming many laws, specifically

marriage laws, among others. And all these continued efforts were met with very little success, if any. I mean, in the aftermath of the revolution, the first round of the revolution in 2018, when the transitional government made it and was set up, there was very little heard afterwards about women or their issues. They were kind of swept under the rug and forgotten. And so there seems to be a pattern here that we see kind of reinforcing itself, whether it was by military or civilians aligned. So the issue here is not just about, you know,

the calculus of how politics in Sudan is done, which is by settlements, which means that only those who wield enough violence are invited to the table. This exclusive culture that we've seen during the transition, during that period of peace, is enforced by the social norms that govern women's everyday life in Sudan. And has it, while this has been going on,

has a space opened up where it's even less safe for women in their day-to-day lives? Absolutely. Since the coup, since the October coup the security situation on the street has been extremely lax the first target is usually almost always women which means

that then families have been pushing more protective laws on their daughters or female members of the household as enabled by the culture but also by the law so it means it just basically means that more women are pushed into early or unwanted marriages to protect them they're excluded from public life so they're either not allowed to go to universities or participate in protests or even go to work or college or whatever.

That's on one front. In terms of policies, if you consider the kind of agenda that the transitional government pushed in its two years in government, the kind of economic reforms that saw removal of subsidies and the replacement with an attempt of a universal income program has just meant that a lot of women fell through the cracks. Yeah, economically and politically, I'm sure and socially as you've been describing. Raja McCauley, thank you very much for putting us more in the picture, a Sudanese

democracy activist and editor at African Arguments and to Will Ross there, the BBC's Africa editor. I have to say more messages coming in, not least just after our discussion also around coming back to things closer to home about long COVID. I wanted to read this out from Julia who says, I'm pleased to hear long COVID

being discussed. I've been stuck in a long COVID groundhog day for over a year. I barely leave the house and I've lost the person I was with. I had an active, busy, happy life. It's a hidden pandemic. That's how she describes it in very sobering terms indeed. And still many messages also coming in about the way that we live and the design of the world that we live in. But just let me bring you this before our time together is nearly over this morning. Almost 300 years after the Witchcraft Act was repealed, a bill has been brought forward in the Scottish Parliament to pardon those convicted. This comes after a two-year campaign to clear the names of nearly 4,000 people, mainly women, who were accused of witchcraft, of whom well over half were executed.

Zoe Ventadossi, who co-founded the campaign and co-hosts the Witches of Scotland podcast, and Marion Gibson, a professor of Renaissance and Magical Literatures at the University of Exeter and author of the book Witchcraft, The Basics. Join me now, Zoe. Let me come to you first about what the Witchcraft Act was and what you're asking for the Scottish government to do now. Good morning. Hello. Thanks so much for having me on. It's a real pleasure to be here. We started the campaign because we feel this was a terrible miscarriage of justice, basically of human rights. And my co-campaigner and the founder of the campaignriage of justice, basically of human rights. And my

co-campaigner and the founder of the campaign, Claire Mitchell, is a QC. So that's her life's work. Her professional work is often about miscarriages of justice. So what we're asking the Scottish government to do is to issue a pardon, an apology, and ultimately to fund a state memorial to mark what happened. So at the moment, we put forward a petition, which closed in March of last year and had at that time over 3,000 signatures on it. It would be much greater now because we know we've got really great buy-in

from lots of people right across Scotland, the UK and, in fact, internationally. And that petition went in front of the Petitions Committee. They looked at it favourably, wanted to do a little bit of extra work in it. In the meantime, an SNP MSP called Natalie Dawn approached us and wants to put forward a private members bill, which I believe is in the process of being put together just now. So ultimately, we're looking to get them pardoned and apologised to. Why is this matter to you? I mean, I understand the link with the QC.

I think I've actually interviewed her before on a different programme. But, you know, a lot of people might be listening, especially after the conversation we've just been having, saying there's enough going on in the world right now with people and women right now. You know, why is this so important? Well, I'll tell you why it's important to me. Initially, I knew nothing about it.

I grew up in Fife in Scotland, which was a hotbed, Marion will probably know this, of accusations against mostly women, not entirely just women, but 85% or so across Scotland were women. And I knew nothing about it, was never taught about it. I went to school in St Andrews, lots happened there, never knew a thing about it. Dressed up as a witch on various Halloweeny occasions, but never gave it really any great thought. But then Claire and I met, she told me about it, and I quickly got up to speed on what had happened. And when you think about what actually happened, particularly in Scotland, with this climate of fear, where women were accused, they had very little often ability to stand up for themselves or to fight against the case because they often did have money or power or status and then basically the wheels turned it wasn't some sort of crazy thing generally

where it was mob justice it was with the state it was it was legal so there's very little you could do to stop and I think when you start to connect with the numbers that were involved so about 4,000 accused about two and a half thousand killed and the way in which they were killed, they were strangled and then their bodies were burned. And I think that was partly to deny them their heaven. And this was a time where society was very, very Christian and people very much believed in the devil. And these women, mostly all of them, would not have viewed themselves as witches. It's not like the modern sort of well let me bring in marin at this point because what what did lead to a woman mainly it was women being accused of being a witch there are all sorts of reasons a lot of them are to do with the fact

that women are responsible for the home and children and cooking and so they seem to have a kind of power base in the home and to be potentially a threat to those males within it and outside of it. So there's that. There's also the way that women are excluded from decision making processes in society. So obviously, they don't go to university, they can't hold political office, they can't be a justice of the peace or a local magistrate at Bailey in Scotland. There's all sorts of things they can't do. can't go into the pulpit to preach and the sense is in that society and something we recognize even around us today that if women are excluded from power they will be angry they'll be revengeful they will turn on the male figures of authority around them and they seem to be able to do that by magical power

so those who don't have power in the real world may be seen to have magical power instead. So are we talking about this could happen to any woman? We're not talking about women who are, I'm just going to say, you know, a load of myths or tropes about witches, but you know, they weren't on the street casting spells or trying to peddle something. No, that's right. You know, often these people had no pretensions to be able to practice magic at all. They were just ordinary women. There's a preponderance of women who are poorer, women who are generally picked on and scapegoated by society for all sorts of other reasons. There are a lot of women who have illegitimate children, who, of course, are frowned on by the church and the state at the time. There are sometimes women who are a bit noisy, who stand out for one reason or another.

Maybe they have a row with a neighbour, something like that. So women are particularly likely to be singled out. And as Zoe says, about 85% of the suspects are women, which is an awful lot. What would it mean to somebody like you who's studied this, if there was this pardon and potentially a monument? I think it's great because it brings it back into public thinking. You know, history isn't just history of the past, is it? It shapes the society around us. The fact that there is this history of misogynistic violence is not something that's

gone away in contemporary society or even around the world. Many women are still being accused of witchcraft around the world and they're being murdered because of it and you know whilst I didn't start this campaign I find it very interesting that people are going back to the past the history of witchcraft in Scotland particularly and want to to get it off the statute book want those women to be pardoned and want to stand against witchcraft persecution today with time slightly against me but just another question to you, Maren. Why was it particularly bad in Scotland? I think it's probably to do with religion. The Scottish Reformation,

so the change from Catholic to Protestant was quite violent in Scotland. People were quite fundamentalist and extreme. So it seems to be an issue for the Scottish church primarily. And that might be the context just to make us aware of that. Zoe, there had

been about 20 years ago, I believe, a pardon passed in the US. Has that influenced this campaign? Well, I think influenced in so much as it shows that it can be done, but also the numbers in Salem, I think that's probably what you're referring to, in comparison to Scotland, they're tiny in Salem. And often we we had we have a podcast called the Witch of Scotland or we've interviewed loads of different experts we had on um Rachel Crist who is the leader of the the museum she's the education person for the museum in Salem she said that Scots come across particularly Salem and say oh tell us about this and she's always kind of like do you not know your own history like you're you were far worse for this than we were.

And I think that's what's been really lovely, actually, about the campaign is that people are connecting with the true history of Scotland. They're finding out how bad it really was. I know, I know. It's a lovely thing to find out. Just we were the worst. We excelled at it, sadly. Well, it's an education. And as you say, I mean, I suppose part of that is for people to learn more, as well as the kind of part of it. As Marion says, it's a current issue. It's a contemporary issue.

There's a man called Leo Igwe who's working away on a group called Advocacy for Accused Witches across the continent of Africa, where mostly women, generally vulnerable, older, younger people are excluded from society and sometimes killed. It's a dead issue. That is a very, very relevant point to end on and bringing it right up to the modern day. Zoe, thank you very much.

And the podcast, as you say, Witches of Scotland and Marion Gibson, thank you to you. And thank you very much to you today for listening and for all of your contributions. Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello. I've got a story to tell you. It's called The Coming Storm, a new podcast series from BBC

Radio 4 and the World Service. On January the 6th, 2021, a mob stormed the Capitol in Washington, D.C. It looked like a strange fantasy had gripped America, about how a cabal of satanic paedophiles had stolen an election. I'm Gabriel Gatehouse, and I've been looking for the origins of this twisted tale. It was a puzzle, and it kind of compiled a story. But what began as a quest to understand a conspiracy theory known as QAnon turned into something else, something bigger. It is remarkable where we've ended, and we haven't ended, have we?

Subscribe to The Coming Storm on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlyn's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.