Woman's Hour - HER Ensemble, Dame Margaret Hodge MP, Surrogacy & IVF in Ukraine, Anne Dickson

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

Emma speaks to BBC Ukraine correspondent Zhanna Bezpiatchuk about the situation in Ukraine. Today the Commons discuss the long-awaited Economic Crimes Bill. A cross party alliance of MPs will be tabling amendments to strengthen the bill. Amongst them is Labour MP, Dame Margaret Hodge who has been calling for tougher anti-corruption laws for many years, and has said there are "worrying loopholes in the bill". She joins Emma Last year, just 5% of the classical music pieces performed worldwide were written by women. That’s the highest percentage recorded to date. When the violinist Ellie Consta found this out she brought together a string orchestra called Her Ensemble to perform a range of music written by women. Ellie and violinist Sarah Daramy-Williams joins Emma. Anne Dickson's book, A Woman in your own Right: The art of assertive, clear and honest communication, was first published 40 years ago. It has been in print ever since. Anne joins Emma to outline the skills and techniques she pioneered and to discuss why she believes they are as relevant today as they were 40 years ago. One of the unforeseeable consequences of the war in Ukraine is how it has affected the hundreds of people from the UK and Ireland who visit the country every year to undergo fertility treatment or use Ukrainian surrogates. This has left families in a quandary about whether or not to continue treatment, and worried about the welfare of surrogate mothers and what could happen to any babies born during the conflict. Emma hears from Senator Mary Seery Kearney who is campaigning for surrogate women to be given refuge in Ireland and from Rend Platings who was due to return there this month for her next round of IVF.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. This morning the government has called Russian plans for a temporary ceasefire to allow civilians access to humanitarian corridors which lead to either Belarus or Russia, cynical beyond belief. James Cleverley, Minister for Europe and North America, has told the BBC that providing evacuation into the arms of the country that is currently destroying yours is a nonsense. A spokesperson for the Ukrainian president, President Zelensky,

has called the proposal completely immoral, saying Russia was trying to use people's suffering to create a television picture. That suffering has included four people, including a mother and two children, killed in mortar fire as residents were fleeing Irpin near Kiev. As pressure grows on governments around the world to make the war end, what do you want to see happen to force change and ultimately end the war? One woman, Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge, thinks part of the answer comes from economic sanctions and exerting pressure on major city or European banks to shut their Moscow offices.

She joins me shortly. But what about you? You'll hear the details from a cross-party alliance of MPs of what they can do perhaps to exert pressure economically. But what do you want to see change? 84844, that's the number to text me here at Women's Hour. Text will be charged you a standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website.

Also on today's programme, talking assertively. Do women still need lessons in how to do so? Anne Dixon thinks so, you'll hear her case. And some much needed music for you, for us all, in the shape of Her, a relatively new string orchestra performing music written by women. But first, a lot has been made of the fundraising and collection efforts of volunteers here in the UK for Ukraine. But what about Ukrainians and their volunteering efforts? A report from the BBC Ukraine correspondent Zana Bezabit-Piatchuk in a Ukraine community centre where locals have been working around the clock to move up to 100 tonnes of food and medicine

out to the front line every day has become one of the most watched videos on the BBC News website. Zana joins me now from Lviv. Zana, thank you for joining us. Just tell us a bit about this community centre. Where is it and what did you see there? Who were you talking to? Okay, first of all, maybe I have to explain from the very beginning that we can't disclose locations

even of such humanitarian aid centers, volunteering groups, etc. Because unfortunately, even in Western Ukraine, there are air raid alerts and it's not safe completely even here. So actually, there is no absolutely safe place in this country anymore. So we are taking some precautions uh as for uh the initiative this initiative and what they are doing they are trying to um collect and then serve it back humanitarian age this includes food uh water uh toiletries, bedding, clothes, both for the army and for internally displaced people from all over the country.

And this particular volunteer centre tries to do its best to deliver humanitarian aid to the most attacked and difficult places in the country, those cities and towns which are under attack which are besieged also they help the territorial defense units and army in kiev so they really working very very hard they have to um to to host all this first of all and they have to pack and deliver on average from 50 to 100 tons of food and other essentials every single day around 300 people volunteers all of them are volunteers civilians are working at this around the clock they told me they have no time for sleep very often, but it helps them get through these extremely troubling times, this hard work and their belief in their cause, in their efforts, that it really helps the frontline.

And the frontline there to talk about what is actually being delivered. Are we talking about food, clothing? There was also descriptions of power packs. Yeah, it all comes together. So they actually divide all humanitarian aid that they have to deal with into two major sections. One is civilian food, water, for example, potatoes. They even have some beverages, et cetera, for the frontline, toiletry, cosmetics, bedding.

And on the other hand, the other section of the humanitarian aid that they started working on is about the military equipment and also devices that the military need. As one of the goals in the military oh sorry in this this volunteer incentive explain us our army our military is that they spend lots of time in forests so we have to provide them with batteries with power banks with other devices that they need

to stay there for days and nights, to stay in trenches for days and nights. So, yeah. If I may, the girl that you're talking about, she was the daughter, I believe, of one of the women you were being shown around. And this mother and daughter combination, trying to help and coming together was very powerful to see. And also they were describing the fact that it was largely men in the woods

doing this fighting and needing these sorts of supplies. Yeah, exactly. And by the way, the whole family of this female volunteer is involved in helping the army. Her younger son, his schoolchild, he also helps. Her husband is also involved in the supply and delivery of essentials for the army. So that's the whole family that is now doing its best to help the army and also internally displaced people. And do we know where the supplies are coming from? Yeah, they are coming from the neighboring countries, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, some other countries.

So they ship humanitarian aid, bows for civilians and also some equipment that might be used by the army. And also it comes from ordinary people and this is amazing there are even very old people the elderly that bring the last maybe things that they have their disposal at home like to toothbrushes for example or some food that they kept for themselves and their stockpiles but now they want to share it with the army or with refugees so like, there are ordinary people. They don't have much to contribute, but they still find something in their stockpiles to bring to the humanitarian aid centre. And also VIP restaurants, big lunch enterprises and humanitarian aid organisations from abroad.

And what is the mood like in this particular center? Very mindful of the fact that you can't describe where it is or too much, but the morale amongst the people. Yeah, I can share my impression with you. I came to the center after we evacuated from Kiev. So we had a week of bombardments and as a result hiding in shelters and basements in Kiev. And then we moved to Lviv. And it was one of my first assignments in Lviv to go and film a story there in this humanitarian aid center. And, you know, for me, it was such a relief to see how these people were working, to see that their spirit is very high they're very positive and our major character our major interviewer this lady Yarina Chernyavskaya she she's such a strong shining personality when you talk to her you just have no choice but to have very great hope to be yourself in high spirit so it was

really infectious to stay there in a very positive way so yeah i'm very thankful to these people really very thankful for their hard work around the clock that's one point but the second point not less essential and important in such troubling times, their high spirit, their belief in the better. Yes, well, I think that's a very important point to bring alive at the same time as the morale point. And may I ask how you were doing, how the team around you are? Yeah, right now we are trying to, you know, to find the ways to do journalism, to tell stories of the people, to continue to work as long as possible, as much as possible we can, covering this war in our homeland. It's a very difficult experience, sometimes heartbreaking to tell the stories of people

in your own home country when it's in war not of it's making a toll and for example when we went to film at the railway station here in western ukraine of women and children arriving into the railway station then getting on to buses and trains to poland and you know i saw a sea of children and women queuing for very long hours eight ten twelve hours in the freezing cold after dark and i was just standing on the platform and trying just to come to terms with the very idea that that's my country is happening right now in this country, a lot of suffering. And for me, it was very difficult to hear the

accounts of women coming from Kharkiv, the city that still under relentless shellings, artillery fire and bombardments of the Russian army this city is literally destroyed destroyed fully historical center University schools residential areas I have a female colleague in Harkiv that is stuck there she she's trapped she can't escape the city and she spends all her days and nights in the corridor or in basement with her old mother that is totally disoriented by what is happening around so and then you understand that

yes you might have a lot of old emotions and um it might be very striking to observe but then you don't have much time to to for yourself a journalist, you have to continue to tell the stories, to explain to your audiences what is happening. So on the one hand, it's difficult, but on the other, it helps us also as journalists get through this time. Thank you very much for giving us those insights, both personally as what this is like around you within your own country, but also, of course, working professionally as a journalist and bringing us the the insights of those who

are on the ground trying to make a difference at the moment in Ukraine. Zana Bezpijachuk who's our BBC Ukraine correspondent there with the latest from a community centre but which she can't disclose the location of but also what she's seen around her as she's trying to do her job. Well I asked you and you've responded about what you want to see happen and how you think things could change or perhaps the governments around the world and not least the UK government could have an impact. Later today, the Commons will debate the long-awaited Economic Crimes Bill, which will crack down on corruption and money laundering in the UK. That's the intention. And in this instance, this context, thereby placing pressure on Putin's allies

as the invasion of Ukraine escalates. It will create a register that will mean foreign owners of UK property must declare and verify their identity with Companies House, stopping them from laundering money through property transactions and anonymous companies. A cross-party alliance of MPs, including the former leader of the Conservatives,

Sir Ian Duncan-Smith, Labour MP Chris Bryant, for the Liberal Democrats, Leila Moran, will be tabling amendments to strengthen the bill. One of the other people joining them is the Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge, of course, former chair of the Public Accounts Committee, who's been calling for tougher anti-corruption laws for many years and is worried about loopholes in the bill. Good morning, Margaret. Good morning, Margaret. Good morning, Emma. That was terribly moving. That was so moving. And, you know, I feel terrible following on from that because, you know, they're at the front line

and I'm full of admiration for that sort of calm and clear way in which she expressed the horribleness of what they're all going through. And yet at the same time keen to stress that, you know, they want to fight and they want to stand up for people around her. And they want also support, not just food, water, but they want this to end. And you're looking at this from the point of view of economic sanctions. What concerns do you have that you want to see reflected in the bill? Let me say one thing first Emma, this isn't really an economic crime bill, this is one bit of legislation that I've been calling for

since 2015. I was promised it originally in 2015 by David Cameron and it's been sitting on the stocks ready to go since then but there are lots of other things that we've got to do to toughen up our regulation, to ensure that we enforce it properly, to ensure that we fund the enforcement agencies properly with proper resources to actually tackle dirty money. What we're worried about today is, and it really shocks me, this bill has been around forever, and it still appears to be riddled with some loopholes. So, for example, it looks, Leila Moran has raised this issue that you don't have to register your property on this public register if it interferes with the economic well-being of the UK. Now, we're talking here about oligarchs who are bringing billions of dirty money into the UK. Now, you can say that's supporting the UK economy, but do we really want our economy built

on dirty money? So we don't want the economic well-being of the UK to be a criteria for not registering your property. The second thing is, I'm worried that you can still get away with putting up nominee directors. So an oligarch owns a property. He hides behind what are known as corporate service providers, those people who facilitate a lot of this money laundering. He hides behind that. You have a nominee director

and you are no clearer as to who actually is the beneficial owner. These are drafting amendments that should never be there, given that this bill has been around. There are also issues of substance that we want to improve the bill. But having drafting amendments seems to me so basic that we hope that the government will listen and put these right. Are you hopeful? I mean, when you look at who's coming together here, a cross-party alliance of MPs coming together to try and strengthen this, as you would all say it, are you hopeful that these loopholes can be tightened and actually that these sanctions, just zooming out from the bill, can have the impact? Because we've heard the prime minister saying, you know, this is the largest and most severe package of economic sanctions ever imposed on a major economy.

Well, I mean, I have to say largest and most, you know, they've only sanctioned about 10 people. I think my latest count was around 10. We've been struggling to find that number this morning. Some reports have it at 13, some at 12, some at 10. How many oligarchs have actually been targeted? Quite. Very few. Very few. But let me just say the other thing is where we're really worried, where we want to amend the bill. Am I hopeful? I hope the government will listen. But where we want to amend the bill is let's take the Abramovich and Chelsea situation. Abramovich could sell Chelsea and take all the money from that out of the country whilst we're still busy trying to get him sanctioned because we're so slow at doing that. And so there is an amendment done, which David Davis has put

down, which we're all supporting, which would say that the moment you're considering somebody to sanction them, at that point, their assets gets frozen. And that would stop the Abramovichs of this world transferring them to their children, their family, or selling them and taking the money out. Another amendment is around, actually, this government in particular, often puts stuff on the statute book, and then it doesn't use it. So it's no point having these new powers and these new duties if you don't resource the agencies that are then responsible for implementing it. So those are just two examples of strengthening and lots of examples of loopholes. Will the government listen? Well, I have to say the government is engaging in talks.

So we are talking to them. I think we all want the same thing. But this is very, very much a first step in the battle against dirty money. Britain has become the jurisdiction of choice for dirty money, not just from Russians, but from people right across the old USSR and from Africa and from the Middle East and India and elsewhere. So we, you know, we want to stop the dirty money coming into Britain. That's why this thing has been around. This today's proposal has been around for six or seven years, but there is much more to come. I mean, Carol wrote in to say something along the lines of what you were saying in part of your answer there, saying, I'm a 75-year-old woman. I've been saying for weeks that the way

to hurt the Russians would be to seize property, apply sanctions. Why then give them plenty of notice to take evasive action? The reason given by Parliament is legal implications. So they've signposted what their actions would be. If they're illegal, come back, so we'll take time, and hopefully Russia will have felt the effect and the war will come to an end. Then and only then could we make amends if called for. But concerns about notice given. And yet Anne wrote in hearing you were coming on the programme and what we were going to talk about to say economic sanctions are an attack on citizens, especially the most impoverished, not governments.

As someone who has been working in this area for some time, what do you say to that? I mean, I have to say these sanctions are on the rich oligarchs. I mean, I produced a list in Parliament using parliamentary privilege of 105 last week. There is another list that Nivellini, who is the opposition leader, put on his Facebook, actually, of people against whom we should take sanctions. These are rich and powerful allies of Putin. And the hope is that by sanctioning them, they will bring pressure. Do economic sanctions hurt the ordinary citizens? Yes, they do.

But they're better than actually engaging in war. And if they do achieve the end, I don't know whether they will, Emma. I just think it's worth trying. And I think anyway, in the longer run, we don't want to be a country that's dependent on dirty money. No, no. And that's the bigger picture. But I suppose with, you know, the reports that we're hearing with people, you know, dying at the moment, there is a concern that this just isn't going to do what it needs to do. How concerned are you about that? I'm mindful of a message that's coming from Sue's listening in Dorset to say, I'm so incredibly pro-peace, I think most people are, but for the first time, I'm 100% behind us sending our troops in to help

protect the Ukrainians. They need our help and support. We shouldn't hesitate to help, as even if it means us having to deal with the fallout. Well, I think I would take a little different view to that. And I think what I want is to try and de-escalate the situation as much as we can. I mean, you know, Ukrainians are dying because in part to save us. We've always got to remember that. We're not intervening militarily, but they are dying

whilst we fail to do that. If these economic sanctions, I don't know if they'll work. I think they I just feel that this is a much, you know, it's a more peaceful way. It's a way of attempting to de-escalate and we should try it. How long are you going to give it? You know, you've been in politics a long time. How long are you going to give it to see if it's having the impact? Well, I wish to goodness that the government would get on with stop talking and start acting, which is why this...

Well, the government would say they have. I mean, I've got a whole list here of what the government said it's been doing since last week with regards to economic sanctions and also further actions around this. They are taking action on the banks, and that's very welcome. They're taking action on the wider economy. That's very welcome. That will impact on citizens in Russia, and that's the price.

I think it's a legitimate price. It's a better price to pay than engaging in physical warfare. You're asking me to put a time limit on it. I'm not going to. I want to do all we can to try and to de-escalate, to try and halt what Putin is doing, and to try and prevent, actually, warfare, which the impact of the pictures we're seeing out of Ukraine now

are all women and children coming out of there. It is, you know, it is It's so, so distressing. It's so close to us and we want to stop that happening. This is just one route that might help. Well, yes, another suggestion coming in is cutting off oil and gas, preparing to turn down or help. I mean, is that the sort of second part of this as far as you see it? Because that's still what you would call economic.

Yeah, I would support that. You know, I'm not an expert in that field as I am on the sanctions that I've been talking to you about and the other measures that we can take to prevent dirty money being used. But entirely, all those sanctions, I think, are preferable. And the idea that, of course, that'll impact on us. Of course, that'll impact on fuel prices and energy prices. But isn't that better than engaging in warfare?

And I do think the other thing is that we should be much more generous in the way we're welcoming refugees. We've only taken 1% 50 refugees from the 5,500 refugees that have applied to come here within the first 48 hours. And just to give you an idea, Emma, wouldn't it be good if Abramovich's villas and Deripaska's villas were seized and used to house those refugees in temporary accommodation as we welcome them into Britain? Well, there's the idea coming from ministers this morning, work is ongoing to speed up that application process. But as you say, it's only at 50 visas being reported at the moment.

And I know that you have a personal connection to that that makes you think even perhaps harder about the status of refugees as well. Yeah, I mean, I myself, as somebody who came in at the age of five, I'm of German, Austrian, Jewish heritage, and my parents left Europe, went to Egypt, and then after the war when the State of Israel was declared, my dad had a stone thrown through the window of his place of work and obviously still absolutely, you know, overwhelmed by the Holocaust. He decided it was time to leave. And we were turned down by the Canadians, the Australians and the Americans and the Brits were the only ones to accept us. It was a bit of a hostile environment, even in those days, Emma. But my family have always been forever grateful for that. And I think we should welcome, we were not escaping from war,

we were escaping from the threat of persecution. But we should be ever grateful. And we should, just watching those pictures, we should open our doors. We can do that. We can absorb them. And Britain should be one of the places that welcomes refugees from this terrible, terrible crisis. Well, more details are promised from the government about that process and speeding it up. And no targets have been set and no limits have also been set. The government, through James Cleverley, the minister put forward for some of the interviews this morning, was saying Dame Margaret Hodge, Labour MP,

and somebody campaigning around the economic sanctions and as she sees it, the loopholes in this bill today. Thank you very much for your time and insights. Many messages coming in about how you feel we should be moving forward. There's a message here just with regards to this, what Margaret was saying, it's very sensible. We don't want a loophole in the new ways,

the new rules about oligarchs, money to allow UK's economic prosperity to depend on dirty money. Another one here with regards to how we go ahead with this is precisely as Margaret was saying, freezing existing assets, not sanctioning what comes in next.

But others amongst you talking about the need to actually go in and intervene on a military point of view, on a military perspective, but also with your views on oil and gas and what to do on that. We'll have a lot more to say and a lot more to cover, I'm sure, as we go through this time together. And of course, for all updates, do stay with BBC News. But just to bring you something else completely, and it's an important thing to, I suppose, do at the moment is some music and to have the difference, I suppose, in our minds of a soothing thing

and a soothing way of thinking about the world that we're in. According to new figures, just 5% of classical music pieces performed worldwide last year were written by women, just 5%. That's the highest percentage recorded to date, I'm told by these figures, which you may take either way. When the violinist Ellie Conster found this out, she decided to do something about it and brought together a string orchestra called Her Ensemble to perform a range of music written by women, both pop and classical. They're performing in Manchester tomorrow night. Ellie joins me now

along with another violinist and member of the group, Sarah Durami-Williams. Warm welcome to you both. Ellie, the inspiration wasn't just the group, Sarah Darami-Williams. Warm welcome to you both. Ellie, the inspiration wasn't just the figures, I believe, though. Yeah, so it was both stumbling across that statistic and also it was during lockdown. I was living with friends who are singer-songwriters working in the pop industry. And I started noticing the differences between our worlds, the scenes that we were circling in. And I just started questioning why that was. Things to do with, well, obviously representation, the clothes we wear on stage.

There are so many differences. And then I just started wondering, why can't we do things a different way? What would it be like if we put classical music in a pop context? Would it be more accessible to different people? Would it encourage people of different backgrounds and cultures to listen to these women who've been overlooked? Is there a way we can include lots of different people? Well, I suppose music's meant to take you to a different place

but if it's always being formatted in the same way, perhaps, or in similar ways, perhaps it doesn't take you on quite that journey. I wonder about a piece of music that we've got an excerpt to play part of by Florence Price. Can you tell us about her, Ellie, and what we're about to hear? Yeah, so she was an African-American classical composer and music teacher and pianist and organist. And she was the first African-American woman

to have her piece played by a major symphony orchestra. She composed over 300 works, symphonies, concertos, choral works. Yeah, so really important figure to remember in history let me bring in sarah before we hear the piece of music good morning good morning why does this matter to you why did you want to join i wanted to join because of the rigidity that it helps me to let go of and it makes a way to connect to the audience in an even more intimate and honest authentic way and that's what I stand for I've always wanted to express to the yeah to the highest possible way I can and that includes how I present myself how I connect

to them not just musically emotionally and yeah so are you are you talking about how you're not just the music here, how you're presenting yourself, how then people are being encouraged to listen to your ensemble? Yes. In a way, I'm the vehicle for the music, but I'm also the presenter, and that also matters. And music is a universal language that we all can relate to. So are you going to be dressing differently and presenting yourself differently during this? Just because I feel we've got to describe this because we're on the radio.

Yes, yes. Yeah, it's we're also promoting the. Yeah, the fact that we can also dress in ways that make us feel more connected to who we are and how we want to express ourselves in a way it yeah it that's part of what we're wanting to help others to feel like they can come no matter how they're dressed or how they look like you know so ellie is this a little bit like disrupting i suppose how you look on stage but also how people are able to respond especially when listening to classical music because you're meant to sort of I say you're meant to it is the thing to sit and not really move yeah totally um there's the other thing with the dress codes a lot of the time in orchestras um the dress code is men wear suits or tails and women have to wear long black and I started

questioning you know why is it that we've been told to cover our shoulders we have to cover our ankles um seems actually really strange um in a pop context no one's ever questioned that I think it really feeds into you know the sexualization of women's bodies and um well the unwilling sexualization and where does that leave anyone who doesn't fit into the binary um how if we don't see people on stage that we can relate to we're not going to feel like we belong or this music is for us because I think classical music is for everyone to enjoy but it's just not accessible to anyone although perhaps you could argue about that you know the music it's all about the music it's not about the players one one point of view and also is it not helpful sometimes to have a uniform so you don't have to think about what you look like totally so we have a very loose uniform oh you do okay

we're kind of like playing around with the gender stereotype so um it's kind of a very loose like suit theme playing on the fact that um you know men have to wear suits and women aren't allowed to um in orchestra um oh really you're not allowed not allowed to wear a suit i'm not sure if you're not allowed it's just not the done in the um on the emails and like on the when you're sent the dress code it very specifically says men this women this a lot of the time yeah right so you're gonna you're gonna play with that let's hear a bit of the time. Right. So you're going to play with that. Let's hear a bit of the music and then let's come back to this discussion. Andante Moderato. This is an excerpt of that by Florence Price. Well, that was lovely to hear. We did need that, I think, in some ways,

more than ever at the moment. And I wonder what you make, just to come back to you, Sarah, I know music's been a huge part of your life for most of your life. James Murphy, the chief executive of the Royal Philharmonic Society, said people are less inclined to engage with music if they don't see themselves in it do you buy into that sarah do you mean um literally how how um what they see yeah so the the players but also i suppose just thinking there about florence who you told us a bit about

uh you know who who the music's actually by yes well so i so I've been a part of Chineke Orchestra since it was founded. And I remember after the first concert, I heard this comment that said, I feel like I can play in this orchestra now because I'm seeing people that look like me. And that left such a mark on me to see that, yeah, many people feel like they're not welcome in this area

because they don't see any representation. So I think it is very important. Chinake, we should say, celebrates and promotes diversity. The foundation does that and therefore the orchestra does. And what about if, for you, Ellie, what are you hoping to achieve with your ensemble? Of course, this is at a time just ahead of International Women's Day tomorrow. It is Women's Day every day on Women's Day.

I just have to point that out at this point. But, you know, it's ahead of that and trying, of course, I know that there are other initiatives, for instance, on Radio 3, on our sister station, they're broadcasting music only by female composers today, for example. But what are you trying to achieve with what you're doing? Well, I hope in the future we'll see a real gender balance in the industry and the music we're taught and the music that's programmed our accessibility to it and I hope to inspire

future generations to show that you can look any way you like and you can belong in the classical industry and you can be accepted in all your imperfections. And I hope that future generations will have female role models to look up to as well. Well, good luck with it. I hope you have a wonderful time. Whatever you're wearing, whatever you're doing, whatever you're playing, people will, I'm sure, enjoy it. And I know you want people to move around, don't you,

if they feel they want to. So's starting in manchester uh tomorrow evening the her ensemble concert forgotten in history and as i mentioned there you can listen to radio 3 not right now uh but at another point and celebrate and enjoy some of those female composers that we uh we perhaps don't know the names of and should but i hope you don't mind me saying this. Would you mind? I'm terribly sorry to trouble you. I'm really sorry, but any chance that you could? Classic phrases, that's what those are,

often used when we fail to ask for something or express what we want clearly and directly. My next guest is all too familiar with these patterns of speech and behaviour in women. The psychologist, counsellor, trainer and writer Anne Dixon has spent over four decades teaching the art of what she calls assertive communication. Her first book, A Woman in Your Own Right, was first published in 1982.

It's been in print ever since with a new updated edition just out. Anne, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Let's start with the definition. I like to get definitions out of the way so people know what we're talking about. Assertive communication. What is it and what is it not? What it is, is clear, direct communication and it is not aggressive. That's the important thing.

It's very much as an equal. So you don't override somebody else. You don't diminish. You don't belittle somebody else. But you approach somebody with your needs as an equal to somebody else's needs. And so it does mean you need to take responsibility for what you want and be clear about it. Is there a good example you could share in a, I don't know, you have many contexts in your book. There's personal context, there's work context, but of somebody being assertive and not being assertive could you could you share that in if you imagine you want you've been criticized by somebody and none of us like being criticized but if you are criticized and you're given a label for example like you you know you're very uncooperative. Now, one option, which is not the assertive option, is to react very strongly to that and be defensive about it, or to attack the other person and find fault with them, so it gets into a little bit of a battle. Or you could say, I'm not really sure. I'm not sure about

being uncooperative. It feels too general. I'm interested in what you want to say, but can you be more specific? And that's just one example. So you keep the gate open. You keep a conversation going rather than shutting it. But you're not mincing your words either. You're speaking clearly about your feeling or your reaction to what's being said. You're engaging with it. Absolutely. That's essential. It's essential. And bringing your feelings in is a very important part because if we don't, it tends to distort our body language,

all the gestures, tone of voice, the way we look at somebody, our posture, all that kind of thing, because that actually counts for three quarters of what we communicate, not just the words. Do you think we still need to learn how to do this as women? Because I'm minded of the fact that since you wrote your book, we have things like social media, Instagram, filled with confidence mantras,

people saying all sorts of seeing is believing, her story, these sorts of slogans that are there, showing in some ways that women perhaps do have more confidence? In some ways we do, but what is missing is still a knowledge of how to deal with things when they happen. It's one thing to feel confident on social media and to promote an image. But whatever age you are, you're still faced with an inherited situation. Say, for example, you have a woman at the top of her profession. Maybe she's a doctor and she's very confident, achieved a great deal, very successful. But she can be faced with a male colleague or male boss and still find herself being intimidated.

Why? Because the man will never have had any doubt about his right to be at the top of the ladder because he's got centuries of tradition behind him. But she can still feel intimidated. She can still feel awkward. She can still not know what to say. And a younger woman who's been brought up with, you know, a much more equal sense of gender in education can arrive in a job and not know how to deal with somebody patronising her or asking her to do errands rather than what she's paid to do. And it's not knowing. It's one of the most empowering things to be able to know how to deal with it in the situation how do i speak differently how do i stand how do i approach differently

and that's what was in the book 40 years ago and it's still in the book now although you've mentioned social media and that that's an that's obviously an update because that produces problems of its own it does although what i was going say, which I found interesting in the book, looking through it again, is that there are lots and lots of circumstances in people's personal lives. It's not all about, we often think of things like training or how to be, in your case, you're talking about being assertive, as to do with the workplace, whether that's negotiating pay or how to deal with colleagues. But you've got a whole chapter on sex and love and how to speak in those circumstances assertively yes that's right i mean it's very much to do with

relationship and i think relationships have taken quite a toll not only with our culture which doesn't really value relationship very much because it can't audit it. But also, you know, with recent experience of lockdown, I think we have become, it's easy to become remote and to communicate remotely, but that doesn't help relationships. And in close relationships with friend and family, we still have a choice. You're right, it's not only work. How do you approach somebody? How can you build a relationship rather than separate? How do you deal with a criticism? How do you change a pattern in a friendship or a partnership?

It's really hard to do unless you know that there are skills to do it. So assertiveness is entirely based on relationship, how to keep the relationship strong and deal with all those problems in between. We do have a lot of male listeners and some may not feel they're very good at this as well. But I wonder if you had a take on, and I'm sure you've heard this a lot, it's in the book, but you will have also been in person with women in training sessions, what to do about the fact that so many women still worry in their, certainly in their personal lives even more, about not being liked. So that's a concern that is there that can stop them from actually saying what they want or what they need.

This is what goes back for 40 years and much longer than that. And it's a habit we haven't kicked at all. We do want approval. And it's very hard because we don't want to be alone, basically. But obviously, we depend to some extent on being liked by people who are close to us. But it becomes an over-dependence. And it gets in the way of saying what you want or when you want to disagree with somebody or you have a minority opinion or anything or saying no. It's a really important skill to be able to do that at the same time as keeping, as I said, as keeping the relationship going, which is what you use the skills to do. But that need for approval gets in the way of work and it gets in the way of friendship. It gets in the way of everything else. Do you ever lose an argument?

Do I ever lose an argument? Yes, but this is the whole point. It's not about winning or losing. I know, I know. Sometimes it's just being different. It's about differing. No, but it is a bit about getting what you want. That's what you're trying to help women do in this.

You know, I'm sorry to boil it down slightly, but I'd love to spend more time with you, Anne, and see where we got to. Sorry, go on, what were you going to say? I was going to say it's not about winning and losing. This is the structure we have. It's all about aggression. It's all up, down, winning, losing, you know, and one of the... Well, it's sometimes not about letting

them know you've won as well isn't it well you're you're you're taking a different approach all right i suppose i'm going when i talk about social communication i'm talking about being honest and direct in it but that sometimes means giving way because you choose you know if you've got a choice but that can be winning i think winning i i think there's a broader meaning that's what i mean by that that can be winning that can be winning for you you know what what actually what i'm sorry if like my language is clumsy i was just trying to be assertive and straightforward yeah winning for you is great you know i mean sometimes it's important just to know you've lost and day and finds a way of saying it you know those sorts of conversations are incredibly hard and she may not have felt good about it but in a

way she she won and hopefully the daughter could see that in time as well and dixon thank you very much for talking to us this morning fascinating thank you to hear about how it's how it's changed and how it's not changed over the last four decades the book's called a woman in your own right many messages still coming in uh of course with regards to ukraine and our initial discussions this morning day margaret hodge uh is out on the on the political moves today if i could put it like that with other with other politicians cross party trying to close as she puts it loopholes in this economic crime bill that's in Parliament today. One of the suggestions or one of the actions that she also said she had support for was reducing our reliance or cutting off our reliance on oil and gas from Russia.

And a message here says, all very well for the likes of Margaret Hodge to say that it's OK for energy prices to increase for the sake of Ukraine and we must all absorb it. Just shows how disconnected from reality these people are. They're genuinely poverty-stricken people, old-age pensioners, cases in point, who cannot afford to keep warm even and are panic-stricken about coming cost rises in this country.

She and her ilk can afford it. How dare she and so many people, how dare she, excuse me, and so many people just can't. Same as those who advocate military action. That was actually from one of our listeners. That's not what Dame Margaret Hodge was saying. Mr. Putin will not be stopped, whatever. What on earth is the point of risking the suffering of millions more when nothing will be achieved? No name on that particular message, but critical of what they see as what Margaret Hodge was saying. Of course, she said that's not her expert area, but she was unequivocal in her support for such a move. Well, to another politician about Ukraine again, but with a very different lens. Senator Mary Siri Kearney is campaigning for Ukrainian women who have undertaken work as surrogates to be given refuge in Ireland. I'll also be shortly talking to Rend Plantings, who's undergoing IVF in Ukraine and due to return

this month for her next round. But first, let me come to you, Senator Mary Siri Kearney. Good morning. Good morning. A bit of background on this. Ukraine is the most popular destination, I believe, for surrogacy in the UK. Why is that? Well, I can't answer for the UK, but I know certainly from an Ireland point of view, we don't have legislation covering surrogacy, as you do.

And I came into this because I'm a campaigner for us to have a provision for legislation in Irish law. And I am the mother of a child that was born via surrogacy, albeit not in Ukraine. So consequently, when matters took a turn for the worst and we became aware in January that we needed families in Ireland who were expecting babies via surrogacy in Ukraine. We needed them to contact our Department of Foreign Affairs to register, to know when they were travelling, when they were due dates. If we take all of last year, there were 46 babies born via surrogacy in the Ukraine to Irish families. So we have on average somewhere in or around one baby a week born in the Ukraine. And I recognise you're talking for Ireland and across Ireland, but that picture across the UK

as well is it's quite stark. People may not have known about it, they may not have realised. And the Law Society in the UK, I should say, is looking at this as well, with regards to the laws around surrogacy. So in terms of Ireland specifically, you're talking about very few people in one sense, but and yes, at the same time, deep bonds and we're talking about babies here. Yes, we are. And I suppose that the laws that stood in normal times in Ukraine was that they accommodated heterosexual couples who were married to each other and there had to be a medical need for them to access surrogacy. So in all, you know, if we take all of the of the island of Ireland, there are only just five

million people here. So proportionately, but the numbers for surrogacy in Ukraine don't account for same sex couples who attempt to go to America or Canada. And the one great thing in normal times also was that parents could be there for scans, could develop quite an in-depth relationship with their surrogate mothers. And it is that, and that relationship goes back a number of years because we have children in school now here who were born via surrogacy in Ukraine. And so there are, there are very deep bonds with the surrogate mothers, the women who, who facilitated the,

the giving life to couples who would otherwise have been unable. Many women in these situations are cancer survivors. So we've been working with the families to facilitate Ukrainian women and their families coming to Ireland. Ireland removed all impediments, all necessity for visas and otherwise for anyone from Ukraine coming to Ireland. Ireland removed all impediments, all necessity for visas and otherwise for anyone from Ukraine coming to Ireland. Have you been able to bring over any of the women or any of the children? What is happening at the moment is we have numbers of families who, yes, people are on their way. At the moment, they're taking respite in Poland and are travelling out via Lviv to

Poland. And really, a lot of the families are working on, you know, providing them with accommodation in either Krakow or Warsaw, just to gain a breath and then get flights out and come to Ireland. And at an Irish government level, we're looking at accommodation for anyone who comes from Ukraine, looking at supports, financial and otherwise, to just envelop them as they come out of this horrific situation. Some people will be very uncomfortable listening to this, that this is the focus. Of course, it's people's lives, it's what's going on, but they may also be uncomfortable with surrogacy. That's a slightly separate

conversation, I expect. But they may be thinking, this just somehow is the wrong focus in some way. What would you say to that? Well, I would say, first of all, our focus is on anyone who wishes to come from Ukraine are very welcome to travel to Ireland and will receive exactly the same supports. Secondly, surrogacy is about having an ethical pathway to parenthood. It is a medical fact that we can facilitate surrogacy and an IVF in countries like Ukraine, but also in Ireland. And part of my job as a legislator is to ensure that we have a very ethical standard of legislation. We're about to embark on a 12 week committee at our parliament level that will really explore the things that make people uncomfortable and understandably so to ensure that both the surrogate mother, the baby's right to their identity and having a transparency about who they are,

and the pathway, the parents. In Ireland, when we come home and there are parental orders, currently only a father can gain a parental order and And the mothers of surrogate born children, most of whom would have a biological connection to their child, that this is their biological baby, albeit born via someone else. And they don't have any rights. So that child has no succession guarantees, no succession provisions. So that is a situation that needs to be addressed. I suppose we could talk again about surrogacy and the concerns around it because of the law being looked at both in Ireland and in the UK. The issue, of course, here is just trying to get back to the detail of Ukraine. Do the women want to come? No, no, no. Because of course, they're not having a baby that they're then wanting to that. It's not that, you know, the baby is not there. So they'll come, they'll have the baby here and then will they be given right to remain?

How will that side of things work about the concern for those women? Well, first of all, when I speak about surrogate mothers, I'm not talking only about women who are pregnant. I'm talking about women who in the past have had babies via, you know, for Irish couples. Right. So you're talking about both? It's a long standing bond. So we're not, we're not, this is, I suppose, out of respect for that relationship, out of respect for the deep bonds that have occurred there. A lot of Irish mammies will call their surrogates their tummy, the tummy mummies of their children. Their children are very much, will have a relationship with these children so we couldn't but it would

be morally reprehensible not to support anyone who wants to come to Ireland but there's no question that anyone is being obliged Irish families are also supporting um their their surrogate moms families uh to stay in Poland to go to Lithuania, to go to wherever they have links, because a lot may have family and friends in the surrounding countries. On an EU level, we are implementing a situation where anyone who comes can stay from one to three years, will have an automatic right to work from the moment they arrive. But also we are looking at the funding mechanisms and supports because people are coming out of trauma and are going to need time to just just take a breath and just rest and come to terms with the horror that we are seeing and the horror

that will be ongoing for many because their their husbands and brothers and sons and fathers are still fighting in Ukraine. So I think that we as a nation, we are getting ready to support that. And there's an overwhelming offer of support, accommodation, goods, money. The reason also it's important to stress, I suppose, that wider network is that we had a message from one of our listeners, Jan, who says, what about the Ukraine surrogate mothers, other children? They're often single parents. And your point there is there's that wider support being offered for the whole family.

And one of the first things that we did was a lot of Ukrainian children don't have passports. So I went to the Irish government, I'm a member of the government party, and went and had that waived. So any person, whether they have a passport or not, that is from Ukraine, they just need identification to prove who they are

and they will have passage to Ireland. Time slightly against me. Rend Plantings, let me bring you in at this point. Can I just say, the surname is Platings. Platings, forgive me, I'm so sorry. It's okay, you're not the first and you won't be the last to make that mistake. My first name, Rend, is Iraqi, actually,

and there's not many of us, so you can just use that. I think there may only be one of us in the UK. And you were meant to be going to the Ukraine this month for your latest round? Oh, I go to the Ukraine all the time for more than just the fertility treatment because I absolutely fell in love with the place. But I was supposed to be going this month and I was supposed to be going at half term

with my little girl who also adores it. I took her there for her last holidays and she absolutely loved Kiev and made really good friends. So we have really close friends and connections in Ukraine. And your embryos are stored there for this round or you're going to do a fresh round you were hoping to? So we we have really close friends and connections in Ukraine. And your embryos are stored there for this round or you're going to do a fresh round you were hoping to. Or what's the situation for you now moving forward? Well, that's a good question. It's not it's not actually the focus on my mind right now, because I'm hearing about babies being born in bomb shelters and this kind of thing. So right now, I feel, you know, we're still in

the first couple of weeks of this crisis, of this war. And the shocking reports that you hear back, you know, I can't be too focused on myself. I know I should. I know I need to pick up on this conversation with my husband. But when I'm thinking about my friends over there and what they're going through right now, I'm not alone among my other sort of fertility warrior friends whose minds are really on that at the moment. Why were you there in the first place doing fertility treatment? Because it was the clinic, the particular clinic in question was really recommended to us. A friend of the family got good results at that clinic and she said that their fertility services were second to none. And when we went there, we did have, you know, sort of half success.

We had actually pregnancies from the tries that we did do, but we, and they were IVF, it wasn't surrogacy, I should stress. And they, but there were miscarriages. And the treatment was very, very good. And the fact that I got pregnant in the first place, despite, you know, having, you having you know well miscarrying five potential babies actually in the course of this journey well we're going to have to leave there ren platings thank you very much uh for how you have come into this and senator mary cn kick siri keeney kerny excuse me thank you to you about the latest with regards to what's being offered to those ukrainian women and their families and thank you to you for your messages and company this morning.

Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. All right, here we go, Oti. Five, six, seven, eight. Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain.

And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that. Dance, it really, I think, saved my life. Join me, Oti Mabuse, as I delve into the lives of the innovators and the mall breakers who have changed dance forever. Gene Kelly was this working class guy that I just really connected with that. Ultima Busa's Dancing Legends on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.

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