Woman's Hour - Hilary Grime on her daugher Phoebe, Catherine Lee on Section 28, Tidying up v mess

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

Hilary Grime’s daughter Phoebe, a student at Newcastle university, took her own life in June 2021. Hilary has since come together with other bereaved families to form the Learn Network with the aim of preventing future deaths of students by suicide. One of their first targets is to ask the government to legislate for a statutory duty of care for students in Higher Education. Hilary joins Nuala to talk about her daughter Phoebe and why she thinks it's so essential to get a statutory duty of care.Japan's decluttering and tidying expert Marie Kondo has admitted to 'kind of giving up' on tidying up after having her third child. Joining Nuala to discuss whether to ignore the mess or try to keep on top of it, comedian Helen Thorn, one half of the Scummy Mummies podcast. In her latest book, Crazy Old Ladies - The Story Of Hag Horror, Caroline Young explores the subgenre of horror movies in the 1950s and 1960s that cast iconic movie stars in often grotesque roles. She joins Nuala McGovern to explain hag horror or 'hagsploitation' and to discuss how actresses were treated in Hollywood as they got older. It’s 20 years in England since the repeal of section 28 – a law that came in from 1988 to 2003 to ban the ‘promotion of homosexuality’ in UK schools. Professor Catherine Lee of Anglia Ruskin University is a lesbian and taught in schools for every year of section 28. During that time she was a PE teacher in inner-city Liverpool before moving into special educational needs and pastoral leadership in rural Suffolk. So how did this law affect her other gay or lesbian teachers and her students who identified as lesbian or gay? Catherine has written a book Pretended: Schools and Section 28: Historical, Cultural and Personal.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Welcome to the programme. I hope you all had a good weekend. Did you spend part of it tidying up? And do you think that was a good use of your time? Maybe you're at home and the remains of the weekend are currently scattered around you. Well, can you ignore that mess and do something else that you really want to do instead? I don't know, make a cup of tea, really tune into Woman's Hour. Or does that place need to be straightened up with Woman's Hour in the background before you can even think straight? Now, I ask this because this morning we're seeing that Marie Kondo, that doyen of tidying up,

has said that after her third child, she's kind of given up on her own method to enjoy time with her family. So what would you be doing if you could give cleaning up any mess a rest? I want to hear. The number is 84844, text charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Also, you can email us on our website. And if that's not enough, you can also WhatsApp message us or a voice note using the number 03700

100444. Again the text 84844. Also, some of you will remember Section 28 which was introduced by the Conservative government in 1988 and it remained in place until 2003. Now it was a law

that stopped councils and also schools, and I quote, promoting the teaching of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship. What did that mean? Well, we're going to discuss that and also what life was like for a lesbian teacher during those years. And that will be with Catherine Lee. She describes her life and also the history in her new book, Pretended. And let me turn to another word, hagsploitation. What do you think I'm talking about when I say that? Well, I watched Whatever Happened to Baby Jane again last night, and that is a film that is part of the hagsploitation genre.

So superstar actresses who were over a certain age in Hollywood were only offered roles in horror type films like that one. It is fascinating. I think over 45 years of age was when you were more deemed to do those movies as more suitable or even younger in certain cases. The only way to stay on that silver screen. So we're going to talk about that as well. I'm looking forward to that conversation. But I do want to turn to a sad story first. Hilary Grimes' daughter, Phoebe, was a student at Newcastle University when she took her own life in June 2021. Now, since then, Hilary, with other bereaved families,

have joined together to form the Learn Network with the aim of preventing future deaths of students by suicide. Their first campaign is to gather support for a petition urging parliamentarians to address the shortcomings in higher education through the provision of a statutory legal duty of care for students. Towards the end of the interview, Hillary talks about a video that Phoebe made six months before her death. This, as well as the petition, can be found on the Learn Network

website. I first asked Hilary when she came to speak to us to tell me about her daughter, Phoebe. I'm really, really proud of Phoebe. She was an incredible daughter. She was everything that you'd want a daughter to be. She was great fun, enthusiastic, energetic, loved family, loved her dogs, loved nature, was very passionate about global warming. She liked extreme sports. She loved her surfing and ice hockey. She was studying philosophy at Newcastle Uni and really enjoyed that side of the university, but hugely struggled with all the rest of it. why we're speaking today because so sadly Phoebe took her own life on June 21st. To what extent were you aware of the difficulties that Phoebe was having? I had gone to stay with Phoebe two weeks before she took her life so May the 20th for the weekend, stayed in her student accommodation. I completely understood what the problems were,

why it was difficult for her. In April before the May, her father had been diagnosed with terminal lung cancer and she had taken a month out to try and look after him in the month of April, so got behind in her studies. She was really conscientious, so that was a really big deal to her. I knew how difficult everything was for her, but I had no idea that she'd ever thought about taking her life.

There was never a discussion. The most unbelievable thing is that Phoebe knew how much we loved her and I knew how much she loved us. She left a note for us before she died which said she left with love in her heart. But love actually isn't enough to save somebody. And I thought the fact that I could tell her a million times a day I'd do anything for her and my two sons and how much I loved her, that that would save her and help her. But the one thing that you can't do without is hope. And Phoebe had lost all hope. She'd be given extensions until the end of August for her work. Her father was dying.

In fact, he died three months after her. He died August the 19th. So my sons have to deal with losing their sister and their father within three months of each other. So it's really, really tough. So let's talk about the university as well. You were up visiting, you realised that there were some issues, but not the extent of them. Was there any communication between the university and you about Phoebe?

What was incredible at the inquest, or just before the inquest, we received via the coroner's office a 93-page mental health timeline and a 75-page academic timeline, which had in detail all of Phoebe's communications with them. first term in um september 2019 um what's that october actually um i was already really worried about how i rang the university i gave them my number they said that they would tell the ops team and that they would contact me um it's written down in their notes. It's their timelines, universities. It's not me saying this. So they had that information, but they never phoned me. So there were many occasions when you could think that they should have phoned me, particularly 20 hours before Phoebe took her life. The last adult she saw was the university counsellor. And in the university's notes, it says that Phoebe told the counsellor she wanted the pain to end and put her hand on her heart. And that was at 3pm on a Wednesday,

and she took her life at 11 on a Thursday morning. And nothing was done about that. Nothing was taken any further. Nobody was contacted. In the notes, it doesn't say, Phoebe, do you think we should contact your family? Nothing. And also in their notes, they have,

which I had no idea that Phoebe had a suicide plan in October 2020, and she told the university that they knew that. And you did not? I had no idea. At Phoebe's inquest in March last year, the coroner said the university had done nothing wrong. And the university in turn told the inquest that staff didn't know that Phoebe was high risk. I want to read a little bit of the statement from the University of Newcastle and get your thoughts if that's okay

they talk about being devastated by Phoebe's death and that their thoughts go out to her friends and family they talk about her being talented and popular with great potential and remembered so fondly they said that she studied with them for 18 months and received ongoing help and they'd been working hard to support her that there was a support plan in place to help her with her academic studies and she had a

dedicated counsellor who was helping her through a very difficult time. It goes on to say the coroner and Phoebe's inquest found they could not identify any point where things could have been done differently either in the case of the university or her private counsellor and nonetheless we are never complacent and continuously work to improve the services and support we provide students. They say they are aware of the increasing number of young students seeking mental health support and that they are working with key partners to offer a range of options. What goes through your mind when you see that and hear that? I try and be calm about hearing that. The inquest was two hours. It was sort of a time when there was a backlog of inquests. I felt very

much it was sort of like in and out. I mean, two hours and then quite a large part of that is talking, taken up with reporting or the pathologist report. The coroner didn't ask any questions of the university that i can remember the university stood up and said things like we don't believe that we could have done anything differently or they didn't know that phoebe was high risk and also they stood up and said that their representative said that normal counseling is for normal issues such as homesickness and relationship problems. And I just want to just shout out, does everybody know that, that their counselling is only for that? Why are they taking on somebody and still counselling somebody that they know in their notes has had a suicide plan if they're not up for that and to

say that they don't they didn't know that Phoebe was high high risk is again I'm speechless because they have that the suicide plan they had a call in January when Phoebe said please please help me but Newcastle only provides six counselling sessions every six months. And Phoebe had to wait till May, which is what she did for her next lot of counselling sessions. So she had two, didn't get from them what she was requiring or didn't give her hope because they told her to go home and practice self-care and compassion and took her life after two counselling sessions. So six counselling sessions doesn't take into account the needs of that particular person.

To say that they thought that they'd done everything that they thought that they could, they didn't phone me. They didn't, nowhere in the notes does it say, you know, did they encourage Phoebe to talk to her family or her friends. You know, they didn't do enough. And following the suicide plan, that was when Phoebe's father was diagnosed with lung cancer. And then following that, she was in the house in lockdown,

so she couldn't do the things that she loved, the surfing and the ice hockey. They knew all of this. She told, there's a record, she told about 12 different mental health related people at the university. And she wasn't assigned one particular person. And the coroner who had all the notes for some reason didn't question. Which leads me to your campaign with some of those issues that you outlined there, Hilary, you've joined with other bereaved parents and you want to get the government to legislate

a statutory duty of care for students in higher education. What is that exactly? First of all, I just want to say that following the inquest, I just thought, this can't be it, this can't be right. Managed to get in touch with a wonderful couple called Bob and Maggie Eberhardt, who were part of a group called, are part of a group called the Learn Network, which is lived experience for action right now. So there's at least 20 of us that have lost children to suicide at university.

And I suddenly just found out all this information that there is no legal duty of care, there's no statutory duty of care, there's no common law duty of care. So there's nothing that you can do. Universities aren't accountable. They can say and do whatever they like. It's just unbelievable. And yet their staff are covered by statutory duty of care, as are people, you know, all over the country in prisons and anybody in the workplace and all those in lower education. So there's just this huge gap for students, which was created in 1970, when the law changed that they became adults at 18 instead of 21. And I'm on Twitter quite a lot. And, you know, when I put this out there, people are replying to me going, I had no that they're going through or mental health issues. What would you say when people raise those issues? If there was a legal duty of care with the white focused and measurable objectives relating to core processes such as academic tutoring, teaching and student support,

then all these things like opt-ins and all of the questions that people ask that they're all so unclear about. Even the staff are unclear. The tutors themselves don't know. So there needs to be clarity so that everybody understands what to say when somebody says that they don't want their parents contacted. You know, there's a professional way of asking somebody that question. And if there was proper opt-ins that were put in by professional people students would be encouraged to opt in in the beginning and while they were in a better place obviously they don't want their parents

contacted every five minutes but just in times of an emergency bristol's done actually quite well in this and i think last year they phoned 96 parents who they were concerned about their children. I mean, that's incredible. And if they'd phoned me or my other colleagues of lost children, you know, I believe our children would still be alive today. So don't get me wrong, there are definitely things that are happening I think that everybody realizes how important it is to have clarity in in 2018 student minds who's a remarkable charity that was set up for the mental health of supportive students did a really thorough research paper and identified the fact that there was such ambiguity and a lack of clarity among anyone's associated with universities regard to duty of care. So it needs to be made clear for the students, the parents and the staff.

How do you understand the reluctance to adopt a statutory duty of care? I think that's a really interesting question. From speaking to quite a few different people that we've been able to do as part of the Learn Network, I see that it's acknowledged there's a student mental health crisis. It's acknowledged that more than 420 deaths in the five years since the student minds brought out the report is unacceptable. 3% of students attempt to take their lives. 25% of students have suicidal ideations.

It's a massive problem. That's acknowledged. And I believe that the majority of people think that there should be a duty of care. I absolutely do. And the importance about the duty of care is to make sure that there's no omissions and no not doing things for students' mental health.

Because the omissions, which seems to cause the death, omitting to information, the death, omitting to information share, omitting to tell parents or omitting to tell the student who's got mental health problems that they've failed their end of year exams, all of those things, it's to make sure there are no emissions. The major issue is that for some reason universities or even the government think that there is a statutory duty of care. I want to turn to Universities UK, which is an association or a collective voice of universities in England, Scotland, Wales and also Northern Ireland.

They are speaking out about it. They've partnered with Papyrus, which is prevention of young suicide. They've published recommendations calling on universities to be more proactive in preventing student suicides and also about when universities should involve families, which, of course, is what you're talking about, Hilary. And it could be, of course, I should mention parents. It could be carers. It could be trusted individuals when there are serious concerns about the safety or mental health of the student. But I wanted to read a little of a statement that they had, and I'd be curious for your take on it.

It says, it is for government, not universities, to create the legal framework within which students learn. But if an additional legal duty is to be placed on universities, it is essential that this does not result in unintended consequences for students

and improves mental health outcomes and safety for all. It's absolutely the government needs to make it a statutory duty of care which is what our petition's about but we're so disappointed because a couple of days ago we got a government response to our petition which says that there is a duty of care and our big question is is if there is a duty of care. And our big question is, is if there is a duty of care and the government thinks that there's a duty of care, show it to us. Where is it? It has to be made legal.

And then what happens is it's uniform across all of the universities all over the country. Everyone, all the universities are doing the same thing. We can't have some universities being good at opt-in, some at better in information sharing. It's just not right. We need to have some universities being good at opt-in, some at better information sharing. It's just not right. We need to trust our universities that they're keeping our children safe. It has to be across the board.

Do you think your campaign will achieve the goal it set out to do? I'm never giving up this campaign. I absolutely believe it. I haven't heard an argument that makes me think, oh yeah, right, maybe. I don't know if you've heard Phoebe speaking in the video that she took six months before she died, when she says that, do you know how hard it is to get help? And the people that get the least help from the government are the students. And I feel that I'm Phoebe's voice. I'm taking this on for you, Phoebe. I am going to do this. And it needs to happen because we need to save the lives of

our students, protect them, and be proud of our universities, that we've got really good, strong universities with proper foundations and legal frameworks to support our students in their mental health. It's so elementary. Hilary Grime there, thanks very much to her. She did mention the video her daughter Phoebe made six months before her death a moment ago. That, as well as the petition, as I mentioned earlier,

can be found on the Learn Network website. And if you feel you need support or information on the topics we've covered, please do go to our website where there are links to relevant organisations. I just want to read a comment that came in during that interview. It is anonymous, but it says, I lost my son to suicide, a sentence I can barely be brave enough to write. My son also lost hope. Everything must be done to save these youngsters at university. Government must wake up. I've signed Hillary's petition.

Well, thank you for being brave enough to write in to us this morning. We very much appreciate it. 84844 or at BBC Woman's Hour, the 84844 is our text number, if you'd like to get in touch with us this morning. Now, I want to turn to the Women's Hour Power List. Who do you think should feature on it?

Well, this year we are looking for 30 women in the UK who are making a big impact on sport right now. They can be athletes, coaches, policymakers, grassroots volunteers. In fact, any woman making a significant contribution to sport at any level.

Just head to the Women's Hour website for more information and make your suggestion. Thank you very much. Looking for your help with that. Now I want you to take a look around you. How messy is it? I am particularly interested if you are in your own home.

Is the weekend's detrius surrounding you or have you spent the first couple of hours of your day tidying up? Why am I asking? Well, Japan's decluttering and tidying expert, Marie Kondo, has admitted to, her words, kind of giving up on tidying after having her third child. Now, you'll remember she became an international success with her books and Netflix series Tidying Up, aptly named, in which she helped people clean

up their messy homes and also declutter their spaces in an attempt to restore calm and spark joy in their lives. Maybe your knickers are folded in a certain way this morning, all because of her. I don't know. But is this beginning of the end of all that? Joining me now is comedian Helen Thorne, one half of the Scummy Mummies podcast. Good morning, Helen. How are you? Hello. Oh, what a happy day. I love that the headlines of the newspapers of the world saying,

woman of three children has a messy house. I mean, what a bombshell. What a big, big news item this is. Hopefully a big, messy bombshell. I'm looking at your cushions behind you, but they look very well arranged. Your house looks very tidy at the moment. Well, this is like my display home.

I'm in Ellie Gibson's house, who's the other scummy mummy, and she has read Marie Kondo three times, okay? And she actually gave it to me as a present a very subtle present because when you go to my house nothing matches you know there's a you'll find a baby bell hidden somewhere all those sort of things so I am the messy one of the scummy mummies but I like coming here because it's ordered and it's very nice but I can turn the camera around and we'll see an array of plastic toys so I think this is the thing is that as a scummy mummy and as just as mummy in general, it's about balance, isn't it? You know, there's some corners

of your house that you will let people see on Zoom and other corners that you wish didn't exist. And I think that's, I mean, that's the joy about this news item in a way that Marie Kondo is not saying, look, I'm going to live in a skip from now on. She's just saying, look, the reality is that my children spark joy. And part of the joy of children is chaos. It's mess. It's letting go and it's having fun. And I think that's something to be celebrated. Ellie and I have been doing Scummy Mummies for 10 years now. And one of the loveliest things that we get told is that when we share photos of our messy houses, that women say, gosh, thank God you've made me feel normal because having clean surfaces and children,

it can't happen, it doesn't exist. Or it does for about two minutes. And I know with Marie Kondo, it is very much after the third child. But, you know, I'm also sending this out to the people with no kids because, you know, there's kind of that aspect. Is that where you want to be putting your time and effort?

I see there's a lovely Japanese print over your shoulder as well, Helen. Actually, a bit of Mount Fuji there just to kind of keep it in the theme of Japan and Marie Kondo. Here's a message. Let me see. I don't have a name on this one,

but I do like it. She says, Happy Monday, Woman's Hour. I have to laugh. I've just spent an hour going around my home, tidying, changing sheets, best part of Monday night, putting away toys. I've just spent an hour going around my home, tidying, changing sheets, best part of Monday night,

putting away toys. I'm just getting that. Putting away toys from grandson's visit yesterday. But now across the garden in my studio, beginning my week's work. But that tidying time is kind of like my journey to work. It's a process that starts the day. And instead of a drive to work to contemplate my day,

I do the same while I'm tidying. So it never seems to be a problem. So that person is very happy with the tidying aspect and finds, I suppose, a certain sort of zen and organisation for the week. But you don't need that. No, look, I just take it in terms of hiding my mess in my two children's bedroom. Like if I've got guests coming over, I'll go, oh, I'll put everything in Matilda's room or I'll put everything in Hugo's room. Or what I used to do, one of the methods I used to have is before visitors would come over, I'd just get a giant box and just get one arm and sweep the kitchen table contents and put it in a box and hide it underneath the table.

I mean, you know, my lifestyle or the way I approach things makes me happy. It sparks me joy. And I think that's it. And I think you've got to find your own zen, don't you? And I think that's what sort of Marie Kondo is saying is that you evolve, you change, and when you become a mother of three, you are outnumbered. And I think that's fine. But if you enjoy alphabetising your spice

drawer or colour coding your underpants, go for it. That's it. We're not here to judge. But is the difference really with kids? I mean, some people are classified as messy for their whole life or tidy for their whole life. What do you think? Look, I think, I think you have to be able to let go when you have children. Like there is no way when you have a small child that you can have the same cleaning stances. And, and I think we, we all start with great expectations when we were first time parents,

like we're not going to be like that guy, but turns out you are, you know, you, you will have banana on the, on the wall. You'll are, you know, you will have banana on the wall. You'll have, you know, Rice Krispies everywhere. And I think you've got to be able to laugh. And my great saying, which I got from my own mother, is if you don't laugh, you cry. And, you know, don't cry over spilt milk, embrace it. Or, as Ellie and I have, made a career out of it.

Which I suppose Marie Kondo did. Maybe she'll have like this other career now on how to be cool with mess. Let me see. This is Lizzie getting in touch. Laugh to myself as I listen to the opening of your show. I'm doing exactly what you described, tidying up after the weekend.

I often wish I could leave it and please myself, but I just can't focus on anything. If there is mess around me, I'm definitely in the tidy space, tidy mind camp. Oh, here's another one coming in, quoting Quentin Crisp, who said, after seven years, the dust doesn't get any thicker. So I leave the cleaning until it offends me. How far does it have to go before it offends you?

I don't know. This is it. I think now I have teenagers. It used to just be mess, but now it's stench. You know, now I have teenagers um it used to just be best but now it's stench you know now I have to count how many and I'm talking to all the parents of teenagers out there how many wet towels are in your child's bedroom right now and yeah I need more cleaning products as in like Febreze and and things to other cleaning products are able just to get the stench out of my house we have to keep the the windows open. So every age brings a different joy, Marie Kondo. So it'll be interesting to hear what she says about teenagers

because that's going to be a whole new game as well. And I suppose with the kids then, the stench, the wet towels, whatever it might be, how much importance do you place on them being tidy or clean? Well, yeah, I'm now, I've been a single parent for three years and we've sat down and written out tasks. So I say, look, you know,

we are now sort of a unit. We've all got to do a bit. And so like the other day, I went upstairs to do some tidying and I told my 11-year-old to hang out the clothes. I mean, I don't know how he thought hanging out looked, but it was just sort of an explosion over the drying rack.

But at least it got done. It was arms and legs everywhere, pants on, you know, radiators, all the things. But I think, you know, you've got to start somewhere. And it is about self-respect. You know, you can't just live in a tip. I mean, it's funny and, you know, you can do a funny Instagram post about it, but there has to be an element of helping out

and understanding what it means to kind of run a household. And I think I've learned a lot more being a single parent because there's no one else to rely on. I've got to, you know, if I don't tidy the house, nobody else will. So there you go. There's no Mary Poppins, unfortunately. Unfortunately, there is not. So you obviously have your podcast and that, would you say, is the thing you are doing instead of tidying up? Yeah, yeah. Podcasting. We're currently writing our show, which starts on Wednesday. We probably should finish that off, actually. We're going on tour around the country and yeah, and we do lots of different things, Ellie and I, mainly jump about in gold catsuits talking about how we're dreadful parents.

But we love the job we do because it brings mothers together and gives them a night out and also a bit of time out on the podcast. Well, it's been a journey. It's really interesting here because that's, you know, I'm really interested in our listeners, 84844, what they do instead of tidying up, if they can push the mess to the side and just forget about it. And also, you know, you mentioned Marie Kondo, you know, it's not like she's going to live in a skip. I'd say I still think her house is probably in pretty sharp order compared to some of the rest of us. We all have that friend when you go there, like, sorry about the mess. It's such a mess. You know, a pizza brochure on the table. Yeah. Oh no, kill yourself.

The spices alphabetised and colour coded, as you mentioned. Helen Thorne, one half of the Scummy Mummies. Some food for thought there. Oh, here's another one. Mum of four kids. Yay for messy condo. Let's be gracious to ourselves and our friends. Clean what you feel you have to

and allow others to leave the rest. For me the room I'm currently working in needs to be reasonably neat and the toilets have to be clean. Currently training my 12 and 10 year old to do that. Sorry I thought you were potty training them. No it's to clean the toilet. That's great Helen thanks so much for joining us we'll talk to you again soon and good

luck with the tour. Let's just move on. We were mentioning this a little bit earlier. Some of you also getting in touch with us about this. Let me see I on. We were mentioning this a little bit earlier. Some of you also getting in touch with us about this. Let me see. I want to read this one. This came in from Claire. I was in school growing up when Section 28 was still in place.

This law still has its effects on me today. As an adult lesbian, I felt completely alone growing up, discovering who I was. I thought there was something wrong with me. No one ever talked about how you could fall in love with someone of your same gender. The feelings of shame are still there today as much as one tries to suppress them.

Okay, so think of that text as I tell you this next part that it is 20 years in England since the repeal of Section 28, a law that came in from 1988 to 2003 to ban the so-called promotion of homosexuality in UK schools. Professor Catherine Lee of Anglia Ruskin University is a lesbian and taught in schools for every year off Section 28. During that time, she was a PE teacher in inner city, excuse me, Liverpool,

before moving into special educational needs and pastoral leadership in rural Suffolk. So how did this law affect her and other gay or lesbian teachers and her students who identified as lesbian or gay? Well, Catherine has written a book, Pretended is its name, Schools and Section 28, Historical, Cultural and Personal Perspectives. And she joins me now. You're so welcome. Morning. Good to have you with us.

I'm going to say your room looks very, very tidy. Just looking behind you to let our listeners in on the transparency. Well, let's turn to Pretended, the title of your book that refers, as I mentioned, to Section 28, prohibiting schools from promoting, let me quote, the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship. What do those very specific nine words mean, particularly the word pretended, which you've called your book? I think, you know, none of us knew. It's looking back, the wording's really vague, but the inclusion of the word pretended was debated for hours in the house of lords um and the the inclusion of it created confusion in in how on earth all teachers were expected to uphold section 28 but i've called my book pretended because for me and countless other teachers who were in same-sex relationships, actually, we pretended to be somebody that we weren't every day of our lives under this law

in the school workplace. So from my perspective, I pretended to live alone. I pretended not to hear homophobic language in the corridor. I pretended not to be homophobic language in the corridor. I pretended not to be interested in leadership because that came with a level of visibility that I couldn't risk. And I should probably point out as well, it was really the local authorities in charge of schools that were prohibited from promoting, not the schools themselves, just to be very clear about that aspect. But they were, the Section 28, it did come about as part of changes to how schools were run or funded or tested their pupils. Tell us a little bit about that time

when you look back. I was conscious of Section 28 for every one of those 15 years that it was law um I know for many other people particularly those who were teachers in London they felt that it didn't necessarily permeate their lives to the extent that it permeated mine but I was in a I was in a convent school um originally in Liverpool and then in in village in Suffolk. And, you know, what happened to me and the things I write about in the book are not unusual. You know, I had friends who were also teachers during Section 28 and they had exactly the same sorts of experiences.

But I guess for me, the overwhelming kind of emotions during that time were firstly fear, fear of being found out, fear that my professional self and my personal self would collide. And it was just exhausting to permanently not be in the moment, two sentences ahead of myself, trying to make sure I was ready to deflect any personal questions. Can I turn to an example in the book that really struck me, I have to say, because you have these stories about your time during those years. And this was about going to a gay club in Liverpool when you met Julie, perhaps not her real name. Can you just talk us through what what happened that night for our listeners so they kind of get an idea of the mental gymnastics you were doing at the time yes absolutely um you know i as a as a young as a young PE teacher i would i would go down to these dark underground bars in Liverpool and they were always dark, they were always underground, which compounded this idea of shame as well.

I was there one evening and yes, one of my one of my netballers was there as well. So I saw this student in the bar and I hastily left and spent the rest of the weekend fearing that, you know, this would mean the end of my employment on Monday morning. Actually, that isn't what happened. That sixth form student came to see me at school during one of my PE lessons the next day and wanted to talk to me about the struggles that she was having with her own sexual identity and the fear she had that actually I might tell somebody at school about her being in in the bar so um you know but because of section 28 I was too fearful to spend any time with her

I closed the conversation down I I you know sent her sent her back um into into the sixth form common room because I couldn't risk under section 28 having that conversation. So as a teacher, you were concerned about ever being out or being a lesbian in the sense that that could be interpreted as promoting homosexuality and also to the extent of speaking with other students about it.

Yeah, that was that was absolutely my understanding and the understanding of all of us of that law during that time. You know, looking back now and revisiting the wording, you know, nobody was prosecuted under Section 28. No teacher was prosecuted under Section 28. And the sort of protracted and awkward wording of it, I think, meant that it was pretty much unenforceable. But actually, though, that vague and awkward wording just meant that all of us were confused. I suppose coming back to also the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship. So a homosexual relationship would not be a real family relationship. It could be interpreted as. And for you then, when you were in a relationship, I'm just wondering, you know, conversations that you had in the staff room or social events or, you know, how you navigated that? Well, as is common with other lesbian and gay teachers at the time, I didn't socialise with the staff of my school.

I lived outside the school catchment area and I gave the impression that I lived on my own. I gave the impression in the staff room, I remember everybody used to describe me as a private person because I wouldn't talk about where I'd been at the weekend or who I was going on holiday with. And, you know, this law said that my relationship was pretended. It said it was not legitimate, not as good as that of my heterosexual colleagues.

And when that happens every day for 15 years, you can't help but kind of internalise that. And I certainly look back now and wonder why I wasn't braver. But all I can say is the era was very different then. Well, with that, and I know you allude as well to internalised homophobia, and, you you know I can read the pain or conflict that you had but tell me a little bit how it felt during those years the 80s the 90s um to keep all that inside the real you for me I didn't know any different because I entered teaching and Section 28 began at the same time. And actually, it was only in 2010 when I left teaching and entered a career in higher education that this enormous weight was lifted. And I was able to take my whole self to work and actually concentrate on the job.

So, you know, after more than 20 years in teaching, I didn't necessarily have senior leadership roles. As soon as I could, as soon as I could concentrate on being me. And, and I knew that, you know, the place that I worked felt like a safe space. You know, everything else started to fall into place. So interesting. But that was seven years after the law was repealed. And I can even say for our listeners that your hand is almost in front of your chest, which I almost feel like it was a burden that was unloaded. It was. And yes, it was seven years after Section 28 was repealed. But I think it's also important to note, as Section 28 was a law affecting local authorities, I'm not aware of any letter or circular that went to headteachers to say that Section 28 was over. And when something is embedded in a part of school culture for 15 years, it doesn't suddenly stop in 2003. I think, you know, the media pretty much

ignored the repeal of Section 28. It wasn't covered in any of the papers apart from The Guardian, who buried it in a small piece on page six. And, you know, lots of heterosexual teachers weren't aware that Section 28 had ended. And I should just say, forgive me for interrupting you there, Professor, but that was in England. It was repealed earlier in Scotland. Absolutely. It was appealed in 2000 in Scotland. Absolutely, absolutely right. But yeah, the spirit of Section 28 carried on more or less as it always had.

I talk in the book about don't ask, don't tell. And, you know, that's something we're familiar with from President Clinton's concession to allow gay and lesbian people to serve in the military. And that was what happened. That was the that was the climate in schools after the repeal of Section 28. Sort of as long as you are discreet, we'll turn a blind eye. And, you know, that felt in some ways like a concession at the time. Looking back, actually, don't ask, don't tell is a very homophobic thing to do because it's it doesn't give you the space or the time in the workplace to speak your authentic self into existence. You know, as I was reading your book, I was wondering if a young person who is LGBT came to you now and said, I want to become a teacher, would you have any reservations? No, I wouldn't. And I think it's an absolutely wonderful career. You know, I've spent my entire life in education and the work I do now in part is educating the next generation of teachers.

And, you know, working with some brilliant schools in the east of England in 2016, we set up a programme that was for, specifically for LGBT teachers who wished to become school leaders. And it's been an absolute joy to work with over 100 teachers to help them achieve leadership roles in schools as their authentic selves and be the role models for young people and staff that I could never be. So certainly that work.

The programme's called the Courageous Leaders Programme, and that's what these brilliant teachers are. So no more pretending. No more pretending. And I go into schools a lot these days, and it's always a real highlight to see schools celebrate LGBT pride and LGBT History Month. And it's a very different world. Professor Catherine Lee, her book is Pretended, published on the 3rd of February to celebrate LGBT plus History Month 2023.

Catherine was also an advisor. I just want to let people know on the BAFTA nominated film Blue Jean about a lesbian PE teacher working during the years of Section 28. I believe that's out in the UK on February 10th. So nice to speak to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Lots of you getting in touch about some of the stories we've been covering this morning. A lot on tidying.

Thank you for making me feel better. This is tidying up Marie Kondo. She's not going to tidy up so much anymore. When my children were young and I worked full time, I ignored a lot of the mess in my home. I now have time to keep the house clean and tidy, but often look back and felt guilty about the past state of the house. I don't feel guilty anymore after listening to

your programme. Great. Well, that is already something achieved this morning. Let me turn to Girls World. How much independence did you have when you were a teenager? These days, parents can track their children via mobile phones if they want to, many do. For our occasional series, Girls World, Enna Miller went to a school in Glasgow to talk to Olivia, Francesca and Saskia, who are all 13 or 14, to ask them how that feels. How are you balancing moving on and being independent

and still being 13? I think we're all at an awkward age where we want to still obviously be involved in our parents' lives or whatever, but we also want to be able to do things by ourself. For me, my parents, they don't like stalk my location how do you know because my dad my dad has my location on like I have turned on for him so he can see like what I'm doing but even though I have on sometimes I come back and he's like where where have you been

so I know that he's not like he still could have been and he's lying but I don't think he would do that I don't really mind about it because it makes me feel safe so if I'm walking home from someone's house and I'm scared if it's dark or something then I know that my parents won't know where I am if my phone's with me but we all have like independence still even if our parents know where we are but it's also like security and safety and stuff I feel like it's kind of a trend with all our mums as well that like they don't reply because whenever we text our mums and we're like oh um I'm just gonna go here so that we can update them in case they need to know where we are and then they don't reply and like the next day when I'm

in the same room as her she replies and goes okay if I want my parents to know where I am I always text my dad first because my mum will either leave me on read not even open the message or she'll reply like a week later personally I think my mum just ignores my message I think she looks at her phone she sees my message like oh god here we go again what's she wanting now and that sense, what is she wanting now? What are your expectations of your parents? What do you want from them? I'm not ready to be independent, like, at all.

I definitely do need somewhere to stay, like, somewhere people to look after me and give me food, so I'm really grateful that I have somewhere to, like, be. Obviously, as soon as I turn, like, 18, I'm not going to just, just like move out and like be like bye losers or whatever to my parents but I don't want to be living at my mom and dad's house when I'm like in my 30s I want to experience that whole it may sound silly but like I want to experience that whole like oh no I don't have enough money for this because then I feel like

I'll have character development if I'm like oh no I don't have enough money to buy, like, my dinner tonight, then I'll have to be resourceful. I like being independent because it makes me feel grown up. It makes me feel like I've got meaning. But then I also, whenever, like, I'm home, I don't ever do anything for myself. Like, for dinner and stuff, if my mum's home, I'll be like, what's for dinner? And, like, expect her to make it. My meals consist of, of like cheese toasties

or something and that's not very nutritious if I have that every night so lovely to hear from them on our occasional series of Girls World right from the young ladies

we want to turn to a book called Crazy Old Ladies the story of hag horror Caroline Young explores the sub-genre of horror movies in the 50s and 60s that cast iconic movie stars in often grotesque roles and examines how actresses were treated in Hollywood as they got older. She joins me now. Welcome, Caroline.

Thank you. Thanks. Okay, hagsploitation, I quite like that word as well. Can you explain to our listeners what that is, the hag horror or the hagsploitation, I quite like that word as well. Can you explain to our listeners what that is, the hag horror or the hagsploitation? Yes. So it is a genre of horror movie from the 60s and 1970s, which cast a recognisable older actress in the role of either the monster or the victim in these films. And she was single. Typically, she was childless. She may have lost a child or she could also be a bad mother as well. And she lived in a creepy house. And that was symbolic of her descent into madness. So, yeah, there was a lot of films that came out during that era and they all followed similar patterns.

There was also this kind of idea of celebrity as well. So there were faded actresses in the films as well as in real life. You know, last night I did watch Getting Ready for You, Caroline. Again, whatever happened to Baby Jane. But for people who haven't watched it, I think that's a good example maybe of this subgenre. Absolutely. Yeah, it was really the film that started it all. So a lot of them came afterwards that copied it. So explain that for our listen we have Joan Crawford we've Betty Davis yeah so it's um it was a low budget horror film

it cast Joan Crawford Betty Davis who were huge huge stars in the 1930s and they just really struggled to find good roles but this film came along and it gave them this opportunity to really camp it up and and um star in this in this film that had a huge impact on culture, really. And it represented the start of a new genre for horror movies as well. So, yeah, it's a wonderful film. So I guess they're in their 50s maybe when they made this? Yeah, they're in their 50s. Yeah, they're about 55. So, yeah, at that point point it was really a struggle for

women to find good roles for characters of that age. And I'm wondering as well when you had to move over to the exploitation. I was reading the studio head Jack Warner, also actress such as Carrie Grant, that there were scathing of women that were, I don't know, middle-aged for example

depending on how we term that age of middle-aged. It could be anything from 30, maybe, in Hollywood at that stage. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think women... Caroline, I think you've frozen for one second. Let's see. Let's see if Caroline comes back to life. We're going to leave that for a second.

But meanwhile... Oh, no, you're back. I see you there. Of so much money. Sorry, Caroline, you froze for one second. Pick up your point again. I was just asking you, what is middle-aged in Hollywood back in those times? Yeah, so it would be mid-30s

would be considered middle-aged. So I know that Marilyn Monroe was getting worried. She died at the age of 36, but she was worried at that age, you know, what would come next for her. So Betty Davis and Joan Crawford, they were huge, huge stars. They'd made so much money for Warner Brothers, but Jack Warner dismissed them. And that's kind of where the title for my book came from, because he dismissed them as being old, washed up, crazy. He wouldn't

want to cast them. Then Baby Jane came along and it surprised him. But I'm wondering, you know, what did Bette Davis or Joan Crawford think of doing those movies? I think they it was a challenge for them. So I think so. Bette Davis loved to throw herself into doing unusual characters and taking on different personas. Joan Crawford liked to be more glamorous. So I think she was always a bit sad at not being able to do the sort of glamour roles. But I think for these actresses, it was a challenge for them. It gave them a chance to keep, to stay relevant. They wanted to appeal to young audiences. I think when they took on the films, they always had hoped that they'd be better than maybe some of them turned out. I think they sort of thought, you know, it's a challenge for them. It's giving them a chance to be treated like a star.

They enjoyed working on sets. So, yeah, I think there was a mixed bag for them, really. Yes, and that was 1962, whatever happened to Baby Jane, for example. But there are film examples from the UK as well. That's right, yeah. So Hammer Horror, actually. I remember that.

Yeah, we think of them as vampire movies but they did a lot of psychological horror films They did one called The Nanny with Betty Davis They did one called The Witches with Joan Fontaine So she came to London, she had a fabulous time She lived at Vivien Leigh's apartment in London and was chauffeur-driven to the studio So yeah, there was some really good British examples as well.

There's also The Killing of Sister George, which is a really interesting one. It's actually very, it's very forward thinking for its time. It had the first depiction of lesbians, actually, in one film. And yeah, so there's a lot of interesting films that come into this genre as well. And do you think exploitation is a thing of the past? You know, when you look at movies now or the roles that are there for maybe not women in their mid 30s, but let's say if middle aged is more 50s now, I'll probably get texts on that, but continue. Yeah, I think I mean, I've actually noticed there's quite a few films that are picking up on this genre. There's Last Night in Soho, which was the last role for for Diana Riggs so she plays this older woman in a creepy house um there was

a film called Ma with Octavia Spencer and she plays a single older woman who's living in regret um but there's also great roles for older women now such as Jennifer Lopez you know she's in romantic comedies in her 50s she played a stripper when she was in her 50s. Emma Thompson is doing some amazing roles. Good luck to you, Leo Grand, for example. Which I actually, what would I say, unconsciously actually started watching that after whatever happened to Baby Jane last night. I have to finish it. I didn't finish it last night, but I will. So it is, I suppose, a more a moment of opportunity for women of a certain age within films than during that era of hagsploitation. So interesting, though, I don't think I'll look at them in the same way again, Caroline. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

So hagsploitation, hag hag horror that is what it's all about crazy old ladies is the name of the book the story of hag horror thanks so much for all your messages that have been coming in shall we go back to the tidy house of marie condo whose house isn't so tidy anymore apparently after three children um let's see I thoroughly enjoyed your piece on a tidy house the wet towels mentioned by your interviewee resonated I recently found I recently found ten damp

mouldering towels piled all over my 14 year old's tiny room ten that's impressive on being asked how she had collected so many a shrug and a grin were all I got that's from Rosie Boom. Ten. That's impressive. On being asked how she had collected so many, a shrug and a grin were all I got. That's from Rosie. Thanks, Rosie.

One more from Emma, mum of three teenage girls. We say it's time to hidey up when people are coming over. Everything gets chucked into cupboards or the spare room. Thanks for your stories. Keep them coming. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Are you confused about why your mortgage rate is going up? Unsure of what causes inflation or befuddled over what GDP stands for? I've got the perfect podcast for you.

I'm Tim Harford, and in my new Radio 4 podcast, Understand the Economy, I'm taking you back to basics. I'm going to explain all the complex financial terms you're hearing in the news as clearly as I can. Inflation, interest rates, growth, bonds, banks, I'll explain it all. Search for Understand the Economy, available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.