Woman's Hour - Hilary McGrady DG of the National Trust. RCN's Pat Cullen. Dance like no-one's watching

Episode Date: December 13, 2022

Hilary McGrady, the Director General of the National Trust, one of Britain's biggest heritage organisations and the custodian of hundreds of our finest castles, great houses and beaches and countryside. They’ll be discussing some of the recent controversies that’ve left to criticisms that it’s become too politicised in recent years. Critics say that in its pursuit of becoming more accessible to more people it’s fallen short of its original remit to acquire and preserve Britain’s heritage. After four years in the job, Emma Barnett speaks to Hilary about what she sees as her greatest achievements to date and her vision for the National Trust in the future.Thursday will see the first ever national strike action in the Royal College of Nursing's 106-year-old history. This comes after talks between the nursing union and the government dramatically collapsed last night. We hear from Pat Cullen the General Secretary and Chief Executive of the RCN.With Christmas party season in full swing for the first time in three years, many of us will be taking to the dancefloor. But how often do we truly get to dance like no one is watching? As we get older, do the opportunities become more scarce, and the internal shame more inhibiting? What are the songs - and who are the dance partners - which force us onto the floor? Emma Barnett is joined by the queen of the kitchen disco herself, Sophie Ellis-Bextor and comedian Ania Magliano to discuss the joy of losing yourself on the dancefloor.Former F1 driver David Coulthard on why he's determined that women are not forgotten when it comes to Formula 1. Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell Photo Credit. John Millar. National Trust.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. I'm aware that some of you right now will be affected by today's rail strikes as snow and ice continue to add problems to travelling around the country. Today's strike is the latest by the members of the RMT Rail Workers' Union and at beginning fresh strike action, the government is banking on the public sympathy running out on this particular front, strike, a historic strike of a predominantly female workforce still set to happen nationally on Thursday. I'm talking about nurses.

With the first ever national strike action in the Royal College of Nursing's 106-year history, it's still on after talks between the nursing union and the government collapsed last night after it was reported that the health secretary would not engage about wages. It's still on, after talks between the nursing union and the government collapsed last night, after it was reported that the health secretary would not engage about wages. But that's the key ask. The unprecedented strike action comes as the RCN is calling for nurses, nearly 90% of which are women, to be given a pay rise of 5% above inflation.

Despite our best efforts this morning, neither the Health Secretary or any of Steve Barclay's health ministers are available to come on Woman's Hour to talk about this predominantly female workforce and the requests that are being made. Pat Cullen, the head of the Royal College of Nursing, who was in those talks, can, and you will hear from her shortly. What I would like to ask you this morning though is about your sympathies, where they are with the striking nurses asking for better pay. It's estimated that average nurses pay ranges from £33,000 a year to £37,000 or perhaps you find yourself feeling the opposite. Maybe you're one of the millions on a waiting list for medical attention.

Do you find yourself concerned and hoping the strike will not happen on Thursday? Or do you not agree with this action for other reasons? You can text me here as always. The number 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, at BBC Women's Hour. Or send a WhatsApp message or voice note with 03700 100 444. Just check for those charges. Or as always, you can email via the Women's Hour website.

Give you a bit more detail about Thursday. Around a quarter of hospitals and community services in England will see nurses walk out. And nearly all those in Northern Ireland and Wales. Strike action has been suspended in Scotland after there was an acceptance of a higher pay offer. About 6,000 non-urgent operations are likely to be cancelled at the 45 hospitals in England and Wales affected by the nurses' strike, if they go ahead on Thursday,

and up to 64,000 outpatient operations, procedures, I should say, or appointments, including MRI scans and cancer checkups, are also expected to be called off. And in terms of the mood of our politicians, because I can't actually talk to one, I'll go from my colleague, the political editor on Newsnight, Nick Watt, who said the mood among cabinet ministers was mildly nervous. We know cabinet, of course, is meeting this morning with one telling him it was tricky because people would be instinctively sympathetic to nurses. Are you? Get those messages in. I look forward to seeing what you have to say on this.

A recent opinion poll suggests, that's the company Opinium, not Opinion, suggests nurses enjoy twice as much support from voters as opposed to the government. And backing for the rail strikes is more limited. Coming up on today's programme, away from the strikes and away from what's going on in the nursing field, the woman in charge of the second largest membership group in Britain, the National Trust, Hilary McGrady, will be here. have any questions get them in and David Coulthard

a 13 time race winner in Formula 1 will be joining me to talk about his quest to find the first female Formula 1 world drivers champion and dancing

with Wild Abandon maybe you did it last night Christmas parties are in full swing for some again can you do it are you good at it what does it give you

if you can or do you run a mile from the dance floor? Now, Thursday, we'll see the first ever national strike action in the Royal College of Nursing's 106 year history. It comes after those talks between the union and the government dramatically collapsed last night. The strike action comes as the RCN is calling for nurses to be given this pay rise of 5% above inflation. Pat Cullen is the General Secretary and Chief Executive of the Royal College of Nursing. Good morning. Good morning.

You were in those talks last night. I was indeed. How would you describe them? I have done a lot of reflection on it and I really don't know how to describe it. We were pretty upbeat yesterday morning when the Secretary of State's office contacted my office to have a meeting. I've been calling for that now for some time. And inevitably, when the Secretary of State called that meeting yesterday with ourselves, we felt very strongly it must be about pay because we've made that clear. We got into the room and within a matter of minutes in the room, it was made clear

there was going to be no discussion about pay. And I'm still trying to work out why. I had to rearrange my full day, which I did with absolutely no problem, thinking I was going to be able to go and come back with something to the 320,000 nurses that voted for industrial action. And I came out with not one single brown penny, except for the Secretary of State telling me on many occasions during that half hour, the books are closed. 30 minutes, face to face? Face to face, to face absolutely yes and from the off there would be no discussion of money so what did you discuss um i did a lot of the talking and reminding the secretary of state um and maybe in some respects even though it's not my psyche to do this almost pleading with him to to um put an offer on the table for me so that I could go

back and speak to my profession. And also saying to him very, very clearly, it was in his hands to avert these strikes on Thursday. And I did ask him, why did he bring me to the meeting? If he was making it very clear, the books are closed, he was not going to talk to me about pay I described the meeting as belligerent and I still stand by that I think it was very disingenuous to bring me to his office and tell me that we could talk about other things but we were not that pay was not going to be on the table so I have no idea why I was there. And I think he has let down the public once again, and he has let down our profession.

We have a statement. We don't have a minister. We certainly don't have the Secretary of State, but a statement's been sent from the Department of Health and Social Care, which says, The Health and Social Care Secretary, Steve Barclay, has been repeatedly clear his door is always open, arranged a meeting with the RCN as soon as they indicated they were willing to talk. He said that any further pay increase would mean taking money away from frontline services

and reducing the 7.2 million elective backlog. Mr Barclay said he would continue to engage with your union, with the RCN, as we move into the pay review process for next year and on non-pay related issues. What do you say to that? And that is the same conversation we had last night for that half hour. And what I said back to Mr. Berkeley time and time again, addressing those waiting lists, those 7.2 million people that deserve much better and addressing the issues amongst our profession in relation to pay are inextricably linked. He will not address his waiting lists unless he addresses pay and why are those people languishing on waiting lists? Because of the almost 50,000 nursing vacancies that we've got in this country.

We have a message here. I have to say many messages coming in in support of what you're doing or continuing to do, it seems at the moment on Thursday. The focus is wrong, this message says. The elephant in the room is that the NHS is overwhelmed principally because of staff shortages and in an underfunded social care structure. Nurses deserve good pay and employment conditions, absolutely, but this is even more true for underpaid and undervalfunded social care structure. Nurses deserve good pay and employment conditions, absolutely, but this is even more true for underpaid and undervalued social care workers, most of whom are not supported by a union, which is speaking to that bigger point about other parts of this system that are creaking.

Has the government been in touch this morning? Has anything shifted at all? No, absolutely not. I left the Secretary of State in no doubt at the end of that half hour that Thursday would be going ahead and asked him once again, are you walking away? And he closed his books and his team and him walked out of the office and that was it. So the strike is on on Thursday. And that is so unfortunate. Can we come, please may we come to that in just one moment about the strike on Thursday. I do want to hear your feelings on that. But just again on that meeting, while there's just another detail I wanted to ask about, you've said in an interview in The Guardian, I'm a woman negotiating for a 90% female profession that's trying to operate with a government that's particularly macho and tends to operate with a bully boy tactic. Were those bully boy tactics, as you described them, on display last night?

I actually think they were. Yes, I think they were. I think it was bullyish to bring myself to his meeting last night and actually kept me waiting for some time before I went in. And you can understand that's a signal out to my profession. But I could spend the next hour telling you why I believe very strongly, as does our 90% female profession, that there are bully boy tactics being used with us. But you think the health secretary deployed bully boy tactics last night? I think in his belligerence towards me last night yes he did and towards our profession yes. Are you willing to compromise on your ask? Are you are you willing if there is an engagement if it comes because we've still got a couple of days left to go are you willing to compromise?

You see I've made it clear time and time again i would not negotiate on our ways but i don't have a room to negotiate in either that was made very clear last night to me so we have nowhere to go um every table that we go to were turned away um and that that's for me um very soul destroying for for those nurses i represent because these are the very people that everyone stood, including Steve Barclay and his colleagues in this government, stood and clapped and clapped for on a Thursday night. But those claps are very easy. They don't pay our nurses bills. And what the nurses say to me is they turn to slaps very, very quickly.

And again, that's turning their back on a 90% female profession. What do you say to Callie who says, I don't support the strike. Nurses earn a fair wage. They have a good pension scheme, which they will appreciate at the end of their career. Nurses have very generous holiday entitlements. Are they willing to give up some of their benefits? A pay rise is not going to improve their working lives. More staff will, who will also have to be funded.

That's from Callie. And what I would say to Callie is, I get where she's coming from, because a lot is put out into the media about the average nurse's salary. There's no such thing as an average nurse's salary. 67% of our profession earn between £27,000 and £31,000. And that's for a degree-based profession. And they can sit for 15 years and indeed 20 years on £31,000. So I don't believe that they are greedy people.

I keep saying this. I don't believe they're asking for their pockets to be lined with gold um and they work 12 to 14 hour day um days and 365 days a year and 24 hours a day and where would we be if we didn't have them work on all of the extra hours and also to callie i would say um leading economists brought out a report a month ago and it was damning to say that nurses now are working five days a week and being paid for four. Now any government that thinks that's okay for a 90% female profession I would suggest needs to really hold up the mirror again to themselves. So I don't believe for one minute they're greedy, they're entitled to a pension the same as everyone else and I think they work really really hard for

that. The government has already announced you tell me anything that may not be quite right on this but this is what I've got here has already announced a 4.75% pay rise for nurses next year what would you say to people who hear that and think times are tough for us all and there's already been an increase? I wasn't aware that they had announced a pay rise for next year that's the first thing. It's a three percent pay increase across the whole of the NHS since the pandemic it's been reported to be 4.75 percent for nurses and for other health staff that's how it pans out in that particular direction it's the point I suppose is I know it's not what you're

asking for which is above inflation at that figure that you've gone in for. But there has been an increase across the NHS. But that you have to balance that with the fact that nurses pay in the last decade has dropped by 20 percent. So this is not about a pay increase. This is about pay recovery and restoration of the pay that's been taken off those people. And I also want to make it clear, at no stage did this college say we were looking for a 19% pay rise. That's not true. That was never an ask from us. What we asked was 5% above inflation. We asked that in February, and inflation isn't where it was now.

But because this government dragged their heels and turned their back on nursing, of course, inflation has continued to increase. And inevitably, then our ask has increased as a consequence of that. But nurses have bills to pay. Those women that work very, very hard in our profession, and it's a safety critical profession have got child minding they've bills to they've bills to pay they've got utility bills they've got travel to work and on on those bills i mean well on travel to work that's a whole other thing today if you're able to get in with ice snow and rail strikes but this year has seen the sharpest fall in living standards on record public sector workers have been hardest hit with the average annual basic pay rise of 2.2%.

That's miles behind inflation. The BBC's got a team called Reality Check, and they've been looking at this. They found that if everyone in the public sector had a, I know I don't represent everyone, but if everyone in the public sector had a pay rise in line with inflation, it would cost an extra £18 billion, which is around £640 per household. That figure is less than what the government's saying, but it still would be, this is what's been calculated, £640 per household. Pat Cullen, how can you justify that at a time when households finances are incredibly tight? The money has to come from somewhere. And what I'm saying, if we value the health service and we want to save the health service from continuing to fall over the precipice, we're going to have to pay nursing staff a decent wage.

And it is just a decent wage. We're not greedy. And if we want to keep those nurses in and stop them going to other jobs, working in supermarkets. We are losing nurses in droves because they can earn two or three extra pounds an hour in supermarkets, in retail and elsewhere. The facts speak for themselves as far as I'm concerned. If we are serious about wanting to retain our health service so that the people that are homeless that I pass day and daily on our streets, right through to our monarchy, is entitled to care free at the point of delivery. If we're serious about wanting to retain that service for absolutely everyone, then we must invest in nursing. You cannot run a health service without nurses.

And where should that money come from? Because Steve Barclay, the Health Secretary, said any pay increases would be taken away from frontline services. I recognise that's not your area. You don't have to make that call. But I'm talking about either household finances, how much it would cost, or frontline services, as it's been posited by the Health Secretary. Well, it's entirely up to the Secretary of State and his government where the money comes from. I let him do his job. I'm doing mine. But do you have any concern that the working...

So let's say pay did go up. Let's say in a miraculous world, because it seems miraculous after what you've said, the government were to meet your demands on some level, get close to what you're asking for. Would you then have a concern? Because, you know, you've got to have your conscience. You've got to think about what's going on and you know the system better than most. Would you have any concerns or qualms that services could get worse because of that? We aren't going to be able to deliver those services if we don't have nurses.

The two of them are inextricably linked. That's the simple fact here. So either we retainffordable? And is it unaffordable to save the health service and try and bring it back from the brink? That's the questions that Stephen Barclay needs to come on today here and answer, not me. We did try and do it. As I say, we made all best efforts this morning on the phone to number 10, on the phone to the Department of Health

and just that statement. Another element of this I must ask you about, for instance, you know, there's a message here against what you've just said. I'll read some of those in a moment, but there's many coming in from, we know lots of nurses listen to Women's Air. We also know lots of different people listen to the programme

who've got their views. And Pauline is bringing me on to something else I just must ask you about. She says, I completely support the nurses' strike, even though it will impact my family. This is, again, the idea of people being on waiting lists. The government, as she sees it, isn't fit for purpose. I mentioned non-urgent operations likely to be cancelled.

6,000 it's been put at. You may agree or disagree with that figure. 64,000 outpatient appointments, including cancer check-ups, also expected to be called off. Pat Cullen, as the head of the Royal College of Nursing, ahead of this historic strike from your union in its 106-year history, what do you say directly now to patients who are listening impacted by that

and could be cancelled? First thing I would say to every patient that's had their operations cancelled, probably day after day after day and consequently find themselves on those waiting lists for up to years at a time. We are sorry that it's probably taken us so long to stand up for you and that's what we are doing on Thursday. That's what we're doing on the 20th. We are saying to this government, we're no longer willing to stand back.

Aren't you making it worse on Thursday? Well, I would suggest if we talked to each one of those 6,000 people that they say will have their operation cancelled on Thursday. And I would dispute those facts. But because if we looked at some of the facts that were were um put out at the weekend it was 15 000 and then it has gone now to 6 000 so i'm not sure they know themselves but this we are doing this for for our patients but how many of those 6 000 people that they say will have their operations cancelled on thursday have had them cancelled time and time again. And for those 72.2 million people on waiting lists,

our nurses didn't put those people on waiting lists. Our nurses have never taken strike action before, so they can't be blamed or accused of putting people at harm. No, but I take those points and I take the point about numbers changing. I'm trying to use the most up-to-date figures. But some of those people are not necessarily on waiting lists. They're going to be going for their appointment on Thursday and then they can't be seen. And I wonder just about that and the reaction to that, because, you know, I suppose the question that's been in your mind,

I'm sure it will have been discussed with your members, is whether you can guarantee that no one will lose their life as a result of the strikes on Thursday. What's your view on that? Well, we've been working night and day with our organisations, our hospitals and our community staff to make sure that we continue to provide life-preserving services. I'm a registered nurse myself. We are going to do nothing on Thursday or on the 20th that will add any additional harm or unsafe care for our patients. I've made sure that we have

exempted a significant number of services from taking strike. And indeed, only on Friday past, I signed off what is known as derogation or exemption for paediatric A&E services as a consequence of the strep A cases. So we have taken a very steady measured professional hand. So nurses won't be striking if they're in paediatrics? No, they absolutely won't. And there's no such thing as our nurses on Thursday walking away. We have made sure that we continue to have minimum staffing levels in all of our wards and organisations. Finally, Pat Cullen, I've taken enough of your time. I'm aware that you probably want to hear if the government are going to get back in touch. Maybe they won't and focus on what's happening for Thursday.

Where will you be on Thursday? And you were going to say at the beginning what you felt about it as well. I'm approaching Thursday with a very, very heavy heart. A nurse of 43 years and I never thought and I would get quite emotional about it. Never thought that I would lead my wonderful profession onto picket lines, standing out in the cold. And not only standing out in the cold, but metaphorically being placed in the cold and not only standing out in the cold but metaphorically being placed in the cold by this government we want to be in our hospitals we want to be in our patients homes we want to be in our community basis looking after our patients but this government has turned their

back on them now where I spend my Thursday is where I will feel most best I will be on every single picket line that I can be on, meeting with my profession and the nurses that I represent and thanking them for everything they do and telling them that I will never, ever turn my back on them. Pat Cullum, the General Secretary and Chief Executive of the Royal College of Nursing. Thank you for your time. As I say, there was no one made available from the government, but we read aloud that statement in full. Liz says, I support the nurses strike and have great sympathy for them and all other striking workers. I am furious with the government for causing these crises, refusing to negotiate and trying to blame union members. No such thing as a union baron, says Liz, as I say,

in Sheffield. Dr. Amanda Owen, I'm totally in support of nurses. This government's attitude towards them in the NHS is shocking and abhorrent. Another, the government is a disgrace. They've brought the UK to its knees. I fully support all public servants striking, there are many other strikes, as the only way to get the message across. Total sympathy with nurses and all public sector workers. Another one, this government only cares about the wealthy.

As you would see there, that message, 12 years of austerity while they up private sector bonuses and refuse to up tax. Carrying on, totally support the action. See the King's Fund report on the NHS in The Guardian today. The government are determined to privatise the NHS by any means. Well, the government would refute that, but this report to which you refer is a government commissioned report, which talks about a decade of neglect by successive conservative administrations. Yes, COVID made things worse, but it was exacerbating an already existing crisis,

if I was to praise and summarise that report to which one of our listeners refers. Nurses, from a patient perspective, just let me read this this i'm day 10 in hospital after major surgery i cannot express how broken and alone i felt in the first few days it is only nurses who are getting me through this i do not mean this sentimentally their energy knowledge relentless care and humanity has helped so much says michael and so it carries on another one from a message here saying i don't agree with the nurses' strike. 34,000, but we heard there that it's between 27,000 and 31,000 for 67%, but 34,000 is a decent wage.

It's in line with other public services, such as the police and military. The police aren't allowed to strike and have suffered a lack of pay rises too. It's the same for the military. Can you imagine how offensive the military will find the fact they can't strike? They haven't had pay rises in line with inflation and are being called on to support nurses, paramedics, fire service, border control with

their strikes. What the government needs to do is address the lack of resources and the backlog of patients and not expect the current nurses to do double the work. Many, many messages. I hope I've reflected a flavour of them. Keep them coming in, please, and I will come back to them if I can. But I'm joined now by a different woman in charge of a different organisation. It's actually the second largest membership group in Britain, the first being the National Union of Students. Political parties could only dream of such membership numbers. Makes it bigger than the entire Trade Union Congress. Who am I talking about?

Or rather, what am I talking about? The National Trust, 5.7 million members. It's the biggest conservation group as it styles itself in Europe. Hilary McGrady is the Director General. Good morning. Good morning. I gave a few statistics there. I mean, political parties would sort of kill for your numbers

and perhaps the passion that your members have as well. I mean, 780 miles of coastline, the nation's largest landowners with 600,000 acres of land, more than 1,300 tenant farmers. There's also castles and pubs and tea rooms, stately homes, all of those in there. And I believe you welcomed His Royal Highness the King at a house in Wales yesterday. It's all going on, it seems. It is all going on. And yes, we did welcome the King to Erding and Wales. It was a wonderful day and a lovely event. And membership numbers are rising again after the pandemic.

But I also know there's been a return to growth. It was a very difficult time for many organisations. But you've talked about this being one of the most difficult things you faced in your time at the Trust, and especially because over 1,000 people were made redundant because of the financial fallout of the pandemic. With your figures looking a bit healthier, the finance side of things, will you be increasing jobs again, do you think?

Well, you're right, our membership did rise. Well, it dropped for obvious reasons during COVID. We were just, we were in fact one week off having 6 million members the week before COVID was announced. Our membership dropped quite rapidly for lots of very obvious reasons, but I'm very glad to say it has bounced back brilliantly actually over the last two years. So we're up to 5.7 million again and growing. But of course, the trust isn't immune like everyone else to the cost of living crisis, energy crisis, all of the pressures that are on just about everybody out there. And we're facing into that. But I'm glad to say that even despite all of that, we are still growing. And that's a tribute to all of the things you've just said, actually, you know, wonderful places to visit, a sense of release for so many people when they come to our places. And I think that's why people love the Trust. Yes, they do. And because they love it, they're very passionate.

I mean, if I was looking back at the reason for the National Trust, some ways, I mean, people could compare it to the BBC and set up with this big vision of what it's meant to do. In the National Trust's case, it's to preserve buildings, the British landscape. That was the mission of the founding members. But it was very striking only a couple of months ago, I mean, she was only in there for six weeks or so, when Liz Truss was briefly Prime Minister. You came out with a rather political stance. You issued some red lines that couldn't be crossed on issues like fracking. She announced an end to the ban on the drilling for shale gas or the ban on that. Is that what you would say the Trust is also for? It has to stand up politically at times? Well, the Trust has a very long history of

standing up for the protection of our heritage and our environment. From the day they started, to be honest, they worked to protect places that were important to people in the nation. You know, whether that was landscape and Octavia Hill, our wonderful founder, was adamant that people who were affected by the Industrial Revolution would have space to breathe, as she said, outdoor sitting rooms. And then post the war, we actually engaged politically again to protect our wonderful country houses. And it was an act of parliament that allowed us to care through the country house scheme for that to happen. So we have on occasions absolutely stepped forward. It's part of our, I mean, that's what charities do.

They step into where there's gaps that the government are not filling. And so we step into those spaces with confidence. But we only do that as a very last resort. We also have a great history of working with government, working hand in hand to do the things they also want to do to protect our environment and so on. So we choose our moments. But it was important for us to step forward at that moment when it really did feel as if there was an attack on nature. I suppose it's just how popular is that with your members? Because the idea of the trust being how you've described is not necessarily at odds, but it's different to perhaps those who think it should be about preserving history, works of art, gardens, you know, the ability to provide that space that you're talking about.

But it should be separate from politics. Well, absolutely. And I respect that. As you said, 5.7 million members. It's unlikely that everybody's going to agree. And I don't expect them to. And I don't I don't profess to sort of speak for all of them. But what I would say is that I do know that our members are passionate about care of the environment. They are passionate about care of the environment they are passionate about care of our places and and while they may disagree on occasion as to how we go about doing that actually they're very united in that and and I knew clearly from from my own post bag just how supportive people were of of our stance on this one and but look everyone will have a

different view and and that's okay um and But I would stress that actually doing this kind of campaigning work is a tiny proportion of what we do. The vast majority of our work, the vast majority of our money goes to the day and daily care of the places people love. And as you say, you know, each individual will have something that's important to them. You know, whether that's a house, whether that's a collection, whether that's a garden. You know, we don't try to be one size fits all. We try to appeal to everybody that, you know, has take some joy from the trust. Yes. I mean, there have been headlines. I'm sure you will have read the whole articles.

I've read some of them in preparation of talking to you today, such as the crisis at the heart of the National Trust. This was actually one of the pieces I read after Tim Parker last year resigned as the chairman of the National Trust. And people can look into that particular story, but there is a concern that you have gone away from the roots and what the organisation is meant to do. A lot of people, too, please, you've also got to move forward. I recognise that. One of the things that did generate a lot of people too, please, you've also got to move forward. I recognise that. One of the things that did generate a lot of publicity was a report that was commissioned

by the Trust into Colonialism in 2020. It set out to show the history of any properties with links to colonialism. What has happened as a result of that? Are any big changes happening? Why did you feel the need to do that? So again, there's so many things that you've just said in that little intro. The trust has always moved with what the nation needs from it. You know, from the day we started, as I've said, Octavia wanted to create spaces for people in the Industrial Revolution. Later in the war, the nation needed us to care for these country houses that were being knocked down I think at a rate of 10 a month at that point then in the 50s we stepped in to secure and care for our coastline so we've had to move all the way through our history to what the nation has needed and how the nation has responded and at the minute we've lots of different things going on out there

climate change is one of the really big crisis and lots of biodiversity that's facing the nation. But equally, we have to recognise we have a more diverse population in Britain. We have a more, an older, an ageing generation. And so the trust, again, needs to keep moving and responding to what's going on externally. Again, 5.7 million members. We reflect what's going on in society so actually the report that you referred to was was something that was in a long line of um interest in telling history in all of its different guises in our places so what will happen as a result of that will will will something change will when will any houses be closed down absolutely not just to finish that, we've taken a long view as to different stories and different histories that we've told, whether it was women's suffrage at

one point, which was a theme throughout the year. And we happened to then move on to stories of colonialism and slavery that was only one in a long line. I'd also quote Corrie Bank Mill, where we've looked at the impact of social change and how Corey Bankmill is an illustration of that. So what will happen is that every time you come to a property, you will get a greater depth of history. We'll not take anything away, but we'll add to it. We'll enrich it and we'll give you more to to see yourself in your history. And I think that's what's important to it. We really want to make sure that what we do at the National Trust reflects people's lives and people have different lives these days.

And that's what we're interested in. I suppose it's also just, you know, you're talking about how it's changed over the years. And of course it has. When you did acquire those historic properties, those stately homes, they were ceded to the trust by owners who could no longer afford to keep them. The trust maintains those properties. What would you say to those who argue perhaps that's creating a burden for future generations who may not see the point of keeping buildings that you may have found have been funded by colonial money? Let's put it like that. You know, if you've looked at that, you found the provenance of the money. What do you say to that? Well, and I think it's exactly one, only one of the reasons why we think it's incredibly important to retain the relevance of why these places are important. Our history tells us where we've come from and helps us understand where we're going.

And that is why our houses are so central to what is wonderful about the National Trust. But of course, houses sit in landscapes, don't they? So there isn't a separation in my head between built and natural heritage the two sit together but we do need to make sure that they retain their relevance and that is why we want people to find themselves in in the stories that we tell and be able to recognize that there are people like them visiting our places that is how we will sustain the National Trust into the future and it's why we need to face into some of these you know quite they are quite challenging subjects and I respect how people can feel uncomfortable about that but I do want to reassure that we're not trying to

take anything away we're not changing direction we're actually continuing on the path that the trust has been on since we since we first opened our doors and And that's really important to me, that we bring people with us. Culture is something in my, certainly in my own personal career, I really believe that you may not always be able to get people to agree, but you can build understanding, define common ground. I'm getting a flavour of your inbox with some questions that are coming in from our listeners, many of whom are members. They're very diverse, these questions,

but you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't in some of these messages. For instance, an anonymous one here says, the National Trust has just got, I've got no idea if this is the case, but has just got planning permission to build a car park on an area of outstanding beauty slash greenbelt at Intham Moat in Kent.

Excuse me if I've said that wrong this is an example of the trust's departure from its stated remit its relentless growth principle is destroying its original ideals what would you say to that for instance yeah so they're referring to item moat so it's a really good example there you go i knew i said it right absolutely stunningly beautiful place in kent so it's a really good example what people and you referred earlier that people view the trust and through a certain lens and that's right what what they often will think is you care for places but actually our cause is to care for places for the benefit of the nation um and that is a really important principle it's a 50 50 we care but we

there's no point in caring for them if we can't ensure that people can access them and draw benefit from them. And you have to do that in a sustainable, measured, careful way. And we go to great lengths to make sure that we do that well. Can you do a sustainable car park? Well, yes, you can. You can certainly do it very, very sympathetically. And it's a really good example that the car park was originally in the walled garden. And of course, that walled garden was not ever meant to be a car park. It was meant originally in the walled garden and of course that walled garden was not ever meant to be a car park it was meant to be a walled garden and so we want to move

cars out of that very important historical space into another area I accept that it's still not perfect there's never a perfect solution in these things we try to find the best solution for the place. Do you enjoy your job as I say I'm just getting a little insight here into having to explain certain things. Is it good fun? I absolutely love my job. I have the best job in the world, but you absolutely have got a taste of my post bike. And I often think, and you mentioned the BBC,

I often think if I'm getting abuse from both sides, then I'm probably doing something right. Well, Hilary, that's stitched on my pillow. I think if I'm getting abuse from both sides, then I'm probably doing something right. Well, Hilary, that's stitched on my pillow. And it's an interesting one. I mean, people do feel very strong. I'm not poking fun at that. There's some very interesting messages that have come in.

But equally, it's good to have you on to hear it from your perspective and get a bit of a response on that. Especially also after a lot of people thought about whether it was right to hear from you politically at that time. We definitely also wanted to hear what you had to say about your intervention during Liz Truss's brief premiership. Hilary McGrady, Director General of the National Trust, thank you and all the best. Merry Christmas to you and all of your volunteers and staff, I suppose, as you get ready for the houses to look particularly festive. I can see a very nice Christmas tree behind you as well in our Zoom window, our video call window. Now, I mentioned David Coulthard would be on the programme. Why? Well, it has been a monumental year, again, in raising the profile of women in sport.

I just mentioned the word lionesses. You know what I'm talking about, but women's rugby as well. Is it time for women's Formula One to take pole position? David Coulthard, a 13-time race winner in Formula One, has launched an initiative to try and find the first female Formula One world driver's champion. There's still a first to be had, David, and you want to be in pole position.

Good morning. Good morning. Why are you drawn to doing this? Well, it comes from family experience. I'm the middle of three, an older brother, a younger sister. We were all given the same chance to get into motorsports. And I feel that my sister, who was six years younger, missed the opportunity because when I got signed by Jackie Stewart's son's team, everyone got very excited that maybe I could become a Grand Prix

driver. So the focus went on to funding and supporting my career. And Lindsay, my younger sister, who's no longer with us, she passed nine years ago. But I feel that she had the talent and speed. She won in karting. So I lived the reality that I was given more support. And I don't want to see any other young girls come through karting and there's a lot of them in karting that when you get to the difficult position of where the the funding becomes a bigger challenge that either they don't believe or other families don't believe or others don't believe that it's a good investment because I think that our sport unlike others is not based on physicality it's based on

decision making and I think we can all see there's there's no there's there's no real difference there between us well so if it's key around decision making and funding and and that investment the technology all of that side of things what is blocking that because there have been role models in this space there have been names for instance Susie Wolfe you know I don't know much about your world that but I know her name and I've seen her and I've read a bit about her story and spoken to her, I believe, once a few years ago. There have been role models, but we've not got that breakthrough yet. Why is that? Well, absolutely. Susie is a great example of someone that was supported by her family. She was from Auburn, even further north than I. So, you know, I know what the commitment was like for me

coming from the southwest of Scotland to come down and compete at a higher level in the UK. You know, tremendous commitment from my parents. But Susie's one out of thousands, tens of thousands of young boys that are in karting. You know, I know, I've lived it. And, you know, I've lived it. And my quest to make sure that someone doesn't miss out again,

like my sister, is, as I say, based on that personal experience. We need more Susies. Susie was from a family that had a motorbike shop, I believe. So there was mobility directly related to what they were doing. Not every young girl in karting has that benefit or a family business that can support them. So what we want to do, along with my partner and the people we're putting in place, is to apply a science to this,

to try and understand what we know already, that there's not a physical reason why girls can't compete with boys or men with women. So that that's already established and eliminated. But what are the other hurdles? Is it an investment? Why do partners and sponsors, you know, many, many partners involved in Formula One? I know from my involvement with W Series talk about having a diversity and inclusion department but that's all it is in many cases it's a department it doesn't actually invest in the same way in women's sports I mean is it just pure sexism then is it that they just don't think women I accept there are fewer girls going into it as girls but is it just when they are there they think no we're gonna go

for the boys they're better well I think that in professional sports, that male sports are so established. And motorsport is different in that men and women can compete together. But if we do football and tennis and all of these other sports, historically, there's been more eyeballs watching the male sports because they've been established for longer. Therefore, there's been more investment because there's been more return on that investment.

So I think that's a pure business decision rather than sexism. But I think that... Well, it's laced with sexism. I'm not asking you to comment on other sports, but I'm trying to understand in your world where you say men and women can compete together. It's not going to make a whole new separate category necessarily. What do you think it is? They just take a look at the women and they say, no, not going to work.

Well, historically, there hasn't been as many women coming through so you know if you've got a thousand young boys coming through karting and you've got two or three young girls then um if if the the two or three young girls were showing signs of brilliance then they would have been supported but you know i think that hoping that two or three out of a thousand or whatever the numbers happen to be, you know, you really are sort of hoping for that one unique individual. I think that if we can have the equal amount coming in, and then we've got a much better chance of getting it. You're going to try and boost the numbers but then once the numbers are there is your program also going to fund the next stage of this or how will it work with what you're trying to do specifically well we will we will help fund the development of young girls in karting the natural process thereafter has to has to take its course because when you move into cars

you've got to be running in the top three of any major championship to progress typically um there's also a process where you need a super license to race in formula one and those super license points are awarded on the basis of your results so to to quote uh robbie williams song you know we can't manufacture a miracle they've got to be lewis hamilton or maxstappen or Giles Leclerc. That's the level that the women that are racing in cars have to be at. We've got Jamie Chadwick, who's won the W Series three times. She's going to race in America next year in a championship below their Premier Championship.

And I very much hope that she achieves the success necessary to move forward. But it's in her hands, in I in wanting to support I accept that and any advice for anyone listening who who's maybe you know any woman who's trying to get into this or in it already what would you say because your your experience is going to be invaluable yeah well what I would say is that if you are already in karting and you feel that you have the talent with a little bit of support and guidance, then to reach out to us, reach out to us at More Than Equal. You know, we have a team there that will be able to advise on not only your physical and mental preparation, but we'll also be wanting to scout and support if they're showing the speed and talent. And, you know, we have to be absolutely clear on this. It's not the family standing in the wings that Britain's Got Talent or The Voice.

And, you know, they're all going, oh, this person's going to be like Mariah Carey. And then they start singing and you all go, well, they're there for the entertainment value rather than their talent as a voice. You know, the stopwatch doesn't lie. So if I didn't have the speed, if my sister didn't have the speed, we would never have progressed to the level we did.

So anyone that is out there competing at the moment, and I have a 14-year-old son who's racing and karting, so I'm seeing some of the young girls in UK karting when I go to those events. And they've got to be showing speed. And then with that, we can help develop them and guide them in the right direction David Coulthard, lovely to have you on the programme it's called More Than Equal, the initiative

thanks for explaining the story behind it but also what you're hoping to do with it, we will see, the stopwatch doesn't lie, I'm nearly out of time so I'm moving on to the next discussion but good to have you on the programme and let me tell you what's inspired our next discussion which is a little bit about timing because it's about dance.

A scene from the new Netflix series about a much-loved female member of the Addams family, Wednesday Addams, has gone viral. You may have seen this. In this particular scene, Wednesday finds herself totally swept up in the music at her school prom, takes to the floor, moving her body with all of the characters. Wonderful trademark oddness.

It's a very joyful moment. Her partner looks a bit bemused but is smiling at the end. It was actually choreographed by the actor playing Wednesday Addams, Jenna Ortega. In light of the popularity of the scene, we did want to ask, when was the last time you danced with Wilde Abandon? Are you able to put out of your mind

that anyone is watching? I'm joined now by the queen of kitchen disco herself. Her live performances on Instagram kept many people smiling during lockdown and have continued to do so. The singer, songwriter and presenter, Sophie Ellis-Bexter, who I'm told only needs to hear this song to start moving.

Sophie Ellis-Bexter, are you on your feet? I would be if I didn't want to sit and be cosy when I chat to you. Yeah, to be honest, I hear beats, you know, I can be out Christmas shopping and hear something playing over the, you know, the shop and I get a little tip, you know, tip tap going. The toe tap in the supermarket aisle just starts away.

Yeah. I was going to say say we've also got on the line uh let's not forget because we definitely want to hear about her moves uh the award-winning comedian anya magliano good morning anya hi how's it going all right um are you moving a little bit of music if we couldn't help i was moving a little bit when that came on as soon as i heard the intro i was like yeah, yeah, okay, we're dancing. All right, good stuff. Anya, I will come back to you. But Sophie, wild abandon,

trying to get it out of your mind that other people are watching. Any advice? We've had some people getting in touch already today saying they do love to dance, but it's very hard in front of others. What would you say, Sophie Ellis-Baxter? Golly, I mean, I totally relate to that, first of all.

I feel like I spent the first half of my career keeping very still on stage actually when I first started doing dance music like Groovejet and Murder on the Dancefront things like that when I was performing it I would keep really really still oh I thought that was a stylistic thing no I think I did it's mainly because I didn't really know I didn't know how else to approach it because I'd never done any dancing like in public. Never had dance lessons until I did Strictly. But I think also I feel like the older I've got, that lovely thing of just not caring as much. Although this might be a bit of an odd one.

I dance as if a lot of people are watching and I think I'm doing a great job even though I also know I'm rubbish it's like I've got like both things going on simultaneously I don't think you're well it's not about whether I think you're rubbish or not but I don't genuinely and that must help uh in some ways although I know that it's important for you you want one of the messages I know that you try and get across is that other people want to dance with you that's that's part of it completely and all the all the people that catch my eye if there's you know a dance floor the people that catch my eye the ones that are having the most fun it's not the ones doing the the most awesome moves it's literally the people where you think I want to be dancing with that person

and that is magnetic and I do think that music is just the most incredible joyful thing that can flip the script and you can go from feeling a bit you know in the doldrums and you hit the right tune and suddenly you're in the right place and I just I just always lean into that because that's always helped me my whole life you know even when I was you know teenager with my Walkman um I know those don't exist anymore I relate I relate Annie let me bring you in you're very popular on TikTok with your comedy

and elsewhere of course and performing live this particular dance routine from Wednesday Addams the new incarnation has gone viral

in particular on TikTok what do you think it is about it and how do you feel about trying to go for it and being yourself on the dance floor

I think well it's kind of what Sophie was saying like seeing someone do it is really appealing because there's a part of you which is like oh I want to be that person as well and I think you do need like a leader in those situations to be the brave one who's going to do it so I think seeing videos of other people do stuff like that can be very encouraging because you're like it's possible like a human can do this and it's okay um so I don't think I'm definitely not like a leader in terms of like being on the dance floor though I do want to be like I'm not particularly keen on just standing around and chatting all night I'll be like keeping an eye to see who's who's going to make the first move and get out there. And then like very quickly afterwards,

I'll be like, right, I'm in. And are we talking big moves when you get there? I can do the worm and like that's my only move, but you can't do the worm at the start of the night. Like that would set a really bizarre... You can't do it for that long, can you? Yeah, I can do about three undulations of the worm and then I have to stand up and sort of go get a drink. But usually I will whip out the worm towards the end of the night

when I've really completely lost my sense of dignity and I'm ready to crawl around on the floor. Sophie, let me bring you back in. There's some messages here saying, I mean, for instance, someone said, I once danced with a different rhythm to the band, but that doesn't stop me. I love the freedom that dancing brings. Another one says, I love dancing with Wild Abandon,

but I've learned it's best not to do it when my husband's there. So people feeling more that they can be free when they don't know the people necessarily around them as well, which is an interesting one. Yeah, and when you were saying about about you go big with the dance moves I think you know work with the space you're given if in a cramped space I'll do it small but if I've got room oh my word twirl around just use that space um but I think yeah I think once you're really in the moment and you realize that people they don't really care that much what you're what's up with you they just want you know to have the as you say the permission to get involved themselves most people want to be dancing it's quite unusual to meet people who just actually don't want to be doing it at all it's more often it's people who just think oh i'm not sure if i

can get myself up there with that confidence but once you're up you're not looking back well yeah i'm going to apologise in advance to all geography teachers you may be listening. This is not from the team here at Women's Out or anyone here at the BBC. This is from someone

who said this to our listener. And I'm sure there are many amazing geography teachers who can dance. I used to love dancing at parties, read this message, until 20 years ago, a friend told me I danced like a geography teacher

somehow that has lived with me and I haven't been able to dance with about abandon since uh that also falls into the category Sophie and I'll come quickly back if I can to you and you of like the whole trying to say to somebody oh you look like a dad dancer or a mum dancer or like trying to label people in a negative way can really stop people can't it yeah very important go on sophie you go first and i'll bring you back in on you go on well that's not how i mean i suppose the whole thing of this mum dad mum dancing dad dancing is supposed to be reductive um and it's supposed to make you feel like you don't know what you're doing anymore and it's all a bit frumpy i mean i found myself when i was first um became a mum I was 25 and I remember dancing

and thinking oh is that me now but then actually the the flip of that is that when you're young you know it's all about finger on the pulse and knowing what's cool so if you're basically being told well you're not kind of part of that anymore then surely that can be quite liberating in itself because actually that was that's quite a straight jacket to wear anyway, isn't it? Wearing that people are thinking about what you know, if you know what you're doing, if you look cool. So I'd say use that as permission to go crazy. Geography teachers, they can dance, too. Everybody can. I didn't know that. I wasn't going to predict that was going to come out of your mouth this morning. Sophie, I expect to thank you. Lovely to hear from you.

You get back to toe tapping and kitchen dancing and your final word from you. Have you been labelled in a way that's made you feel bad about your dancing? Yeah, I remembered as you were talking about, as I was thinking about this topic, I went to a festival last year and was just like dancing, you know, having a nice time. And on the tube back, one of my friends turned to me and was like, you always said you're bad at dancing, but you really are. I had no idea. That is going to be on my mind for the rest of my life. Thank you so much. But it doesn't stop me, you know.

I'm happy it doesn't stop you, especially as we get more into the festive season. I hope you have some opportunities. Anya Magliano, thank you to you. Sophie Elisbetster, thanks to you. Thanks to you for your company this morning. So many messages about all of the discussions and still coming in about the nurses' strike on Thursday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your company this morning. So many messages about all of the discussions and still coming in about the nurses' strike on Thursday.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.