Woman's Hour - Hilary Swank; Miscarriage in lockdown; Muslim women write about love and desire

Episode Date: September 4, 2020

Hilary Swank, the two time Oscar-winning actress of Boys Don’t Cry and Million Dollar Baby, stars in new Netflix drama Away. She plays Commander Emma Green who leaves behind her husband and daughter to lead an international crew of astronauts on a perilous three-year mission to Mars. She talks to Jane about being an astronaut, dealing with claustrophobia, caring for her Dad, Devon cream teas, and parrots.1 in 4 women will lose a baby during pregnancy or birth. During lockdown NHS maternity services carried on, but new rules were brought in to minimise patient contact to protect pregnant women and staff – but how did this affect people who were going through a miscarriage? Helen and Fatma who both miscarried at the height of lockdown share their experiences and we hear from consultant gynaecologist Dr Christine Ekechi.New book A Match Made in Heaven – British Muslim Women Write About Love And Desire tells many different stories about sex and relationships. Featuring emerging writers who took part in writing workshops in Leeds, Bradford and Glasgow as well as more established talent, the aim was to get beyond the stereotypes of subservient Muslim women. Editors Nafhesa Ali and Claire Chambers and the writer Noren Haq join Jane.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, very good morning to you. Hilary Swank is one of our guests this morning. She is part of a very exciting, I have to say, very involving new Netflix series about a trip to Mars. It's called Away. And Hilary Swank will chat about that in a moment or two.

One in four women we know will lose a baby during pregnancy or birth. What was it like to have a miscarriage during lockdown? There were new rules brought in to minimise patient contact to protect pregnant women and staff. But what was that experience like? Not easy, to put it mildly. We'll discuss that on Women's Hour today as well and we'll also celebrate a new anthology of writing by British Muslim women.

It's called, got it here with me, A Match Made in Heaven. And we'll hear from one of the writers on Women's Hour this morning. Let's start then journeying to Mars in the company of the Oscar winning actress Hilary Swank, star of Boys Don't Cry and Million Dollar Baby. She's going to Mars and it's quite a long trip in the new Netflix series Away. Now she plays Commander Emma Green, who leaves her husband and daughter behind to lead an international crew of astronauts on that perilous three-year mission to the red planet. Here she is talking to her daughter on Earth. It's time for decompression, Commander. Copy.

I gotta go, sweetie. Okay. You're my reason. My reason to hold on tight. I love you, Lex. I love you too, Mom. I love you too, Mum. I'll talk to you soon. Well, dramatic stuff.

I have to say, perhaps that doesn't give the fairest illustration of this show. It's not as schmaltzy as that sounds. Here is Hilary. First of all, I wanted to be an astronaut before I wanted to be an actor. So it's kind of fun to scratch the surface there. I got to speak to some incredible astronauts who are the best in their field, which is such a great thing as an actor. When you dive into these other worlds, you get to speak to the people at the top and pick their brains. And it reminded me of why I wanted to be an astronaut at six years old, which is just the idea of something bigger than us, the idea of the unknown. And I think together. We're all one people in a way. It doesn't matter if you're Russian or you're British

or you're American or you're Chinese or Indian in the case of the astronauts on this spaceship. And that's what I love so much is we represent all the different colors of what you see when you walk around in daily life. And that's not usually depicted on the screen. No, it isn't. But I guess the pandemic has also made that a reality. Whether we like it or not,

we are all in this parlous state together at the moment, aren't we? Yes, exactly. In the end, we're all humans. We're trying to figure out what our purpose is, give and receive love, have no regrets. When you strip down the stereotypes, you know, that's what's underneath all of us. That's the humanity that connects us all. I've been fortunate enough to interview a couple of astronauts, including Britain's first astronaut, who's a woman called Helen Sharman. And they are just an extraordinary brand of human being, aren't they? And they're incredibly humble. Yes, their brain is remarkable. That's when I knew I couldn't be an astronaut. I don't have that brain. It's out of this world. Sorry,

bad pun. I spoke to Jessica Meir when she was on the ISS, the International Space Station. She was up there for seven months. And then subsequently, I spoke to her when she touched down. And she said she felt like she was landing on a foreign planet because she touched down during the coronavirus. They had to touch down in Kazakhstan and quarantine for like four weeks because your immune system is very different after coming back from space. But she just said, when you touch back down, you don't realize that you take for granted what you're smelling. The smell of the earth is so distinct and beautiful. And then you hear the sound of the wind ruffling through the leaves. And she just said she just is

in awe when she touched back down at what we take for granted. You are the commander of this spaceship in this new show. And that brings with it its own challenging dynamic for you. But you're also a character who's facing three years away from your partner and child. And that would seem to anybody a quite colossal undertaking. Do you think humans are going to be prepared for something like that and be willing to do it? Oh, 100%. You see, a lot of the show is about this mission to Mars and the dream of that, but also this gravitational pull to Earth and the love of family and the sacrifices that we make for both. And that it's a daily choice. When do you choose your career? When do you choose your family? And that's also something I think so many people can relate to right now, especially so many more women are in the workplace, thankfully, doing what they want

to be doing. And as we find equality across the board, and as you say, you know, this is a woman leading a mission to Mars, but that's not the drama of the story, which I think is also exciting. You know, five years ago, that would have been the drama itself. Her husband would have been emasculated and would have been upset. wasn't going. But instead, the drama revolves around other things, which I think is super exciting. If you look back over your career, what are you most proud of? A lot of our listeners, I think, will have invested in Boys Don't Cry, for example, for which you won an Oscar. Now, that is a very significant film to a lot of people. You play a trans man and a real person as well. And this is a film that a lot of

people really care about, Hilary, still. Yeah, you kind of just teed up my answer, because you're right. And that would be for certain, I think, the film that I will always be the most proud of being a part of and telling. It's a story that started an important conversation about really a group of marginalized people that weren't even accepted by the gay and lesbian community at that time. I think I had, I looked back and seen the impact that it made, the responsibility on my shoulders might've made me kind of, kind of, you know, been over overwhelming. So, but yeah, that still needs to continue to be talked about. We're still not even close to where we seem to be with you, but you've got a talking parrot. I mean, haven't we all? rescued another one about a year and a half ago. And they're so funny. You know, we take a lot of road trips.

Your husband and the parrots? Yeah. And the dogs. We don't have the means to fly around in private jets like some other people in the business. So we drive and so that we can take all our pack. But we also love a road trip anyway. We spend a lot of time in Colorado. So we drive back and forth from California to Colorado. And just about a year and a half ago, we found another dog pregnant on the side of the road and we helped her deliver her babies. We raised them. Well, really I did. They raised them until they were about 12 weeks old and found them homes. And so I just love animals. They don't judge people. They just kind of really see you and they're the best. I have a couple of horses as well, and there's just no happier place for me. I'm right now sitting on 168 acres in Colorado,

and I'm so blessed to be able to have this, this land and this place to kind of get away from everything and recharge. Well, it could be a lot worse, couldn't it? A lot of our listeners and a topic that comes up time and time again on our kind of program is the subject of caring. And you are someone who took time out to look after your dad when he was not at all well. How important was that period of your life for you? It was so important. I just said, yes, this is what you do. My dad is in the greatest need of his life. They gave him approximately three years to live. And if he didn't get a lung transplant, and it was a no brainer, he didn't have anyone in his life. Becoming his health advocate was, of course, what I was going to do. My dad is super fun to be around. My grandmother's from

Devon. He's got that great British humility and sense of humor. He's very witty. But the hard part was the ups and downs, the struggle and his fight for life. I'm so glad that I was able to be by his side. What a blessing that I have a job that I can walk away from and have the means to live and be there for him. It was supposed to take one year because it takes a year to see if an organ takes, but he was having so many complications,

it took about three. He still lives with us in California, which is so wonderful. Probably not for him. I think he would like to get back to where he was living in Iowa and the such. But there's a lot of things, which I'm sure I'm boring you with now, but there's like spores and things in certain areas that affect your lungs. And if a doctor looks at your lungs, they can tell you where you're from approximately due to the condition of them inside. Isn't that crazy?

Right. I must admit, I didn't know about your British heritage. Have you never played anybody British? No, I haven't. Well, that's disgraceful. It is disgraceful. We got to change that. Let's put that out there.

Well, we have. Devon is so beautiful too. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what um you know that business about the devon cream tea yeah uh so is it jam first or cream or what what do you go for you put your cream in before your tea don't you no you're proper like that's a cup of tea i'm talking about a scone no i know i know but i'm i'm i'm going to i'm starting with that okay do you put your cream in first no with a cup a cup of tea, I'm afraid. I'm

afraid I lop the cream in last, the milk or whatever. Okay, good. Well, so do I. So we're in the same. Then I put my clotted cream on first, but I put it last in my tea. But I put it on first because it doesn't stay well over the jam. Right. It kind of falls off. So you need the jam to sit on top of it. That is the swank way to do a Devon cream tea. That's Hilary Swank. Turns out to be a little bit British and she did say that

she would love to play a British woman. So if you're out there, casting agents, get in touch with Hilary. That series on Netflix, Away, is available to watch

from today. And if you'd like to hear the interview that we did on Women's Hour with Helen Sharman, I think there are a few, actually. You will find those interviews on BBC Sounds. But she is a brilliant woman and, of course, Britain's first astronaut. Now, one in four women will lose a baby during pregnancy or birth.

And during lockdown, obviously, maternity services carried on. But new rules, sensibly sensibly of course were brought in to minimise patient contact to protect pregnant women and NHS staff but what impact did those new rules have on people women going through a miscarriage? Helen is from Kent and you'll hear her experience first. She had her fourth miscarriage in March of this year. This is something that had never been experienced before. The whole country, as we know, went into disarray. There was no protocol in terms of what to do in a pandemic situation. The recurrent miscarriage unit actually immediately closed down due to COVID-19 restrictions. And the consultant that I've been seeing was unfortunately having to self-isolate

so as part of the meetings I've been having with St Mary I'd had some vital blood tests and it was essential for me to have the results of those blood tests back. What happened next at a time of high anxiety anyway was every day for at least two weeks I was on the phone, on email trying to hunt down my blood test results. I was trying to understand how I could have the early pregnancy scan that under any normal circumstances I would absolutely have been entitled to and it it was, I think, only best described as chaotic. The words that I kept hearing over and over again from the people that I spoke to within the NHS were, we're so sorry, we're so sorry, we can't help you, we don't know what to do. But all the time you were trying to chase this down, you were having a miscarriage.

I didn't know at the time. I needed the scans to know whether or not my baby had a heartbeat. Right. I mean, incredibly stressful. And what happened in the end? So eventually I managed to secure a scan at Pemberley Tumbridge Wells Hospital. The protocol at that point is that you can only go in on your own.

I went in on my own. My partner sat outside in the car park on the tarmac. And then I had to be told on my own that my baby had no heartbeat. There were no actual external signs that there was anything wrong with the pregnancy until that point. So that was very difficult to hear and then I had to go down and I had to speak to Dan my partner and and give him the news that would have otherwise been delivered by a doctor just standing in the car park and I remember a nurse as I was going in I asked for directions and she she asked me what I was in for and I said potentially I need a scan see if I'm going to be miscarrying and she said to

me if only I could put my arm around you and that that really resonated. So your treatment in this miscarriage because unfortunately you you have had others was very different from what had happened before? Completely different and actually there were potential risks involved because of the impact of COVID-19. So I had to go back a couple of weeks later to have a second scan to confirm that the baby definitely was not growing. When I went to the second scan, they then give you medical treatment to speed along the miscarriage. It was what's known as a missed miscarriage where there's no external signs

that you need to remove the products of pregnancy because of the risk of infection the doctors at the time as I was on my own told me that they would recommend after seeing the scans that I stayed in but I wasn't absorbing information I was distressed I desperately wanted to go and see my partner and as a result of that I was given the medication and unwisely I went home. I then had a horrendous experience. I went into contractions for four hours, projectile vomiting, blacking out. We were about to call an ambulance when the contractions finally subsided and if I had somebody else there just in a capacity to listen and absorb the information, then I most definitely would

have stayed in hospital and listened to the advice that the doctors had given me. Well, that is the experience of Helen and our best wishes to her and thanks to her for speaking out as well. Fatma is 25. She is from Wiltshire and she has a daughter. She went through her second miscarriage during lockdown. I found out I was pregnant on the 16th of March. I was absolutely fine. I had a bump. I started growing a bump. I had all the symptoms. I felt really sick. And I went in for my 12-week scan in May, on May the 12th.

And I was obviously by myself because of COVID, so my husband wasn't allowed to come in. She was scanning me and kind of looked a bit distressed when she was scanning me. And then I got told that there wasn't actually a baby inside my sack. So I was pregnant and I had a sack that had been growing and growing and growing, hence the bump. But there was just no baby or placenta or anything like that inside it.

So obviously I started crying and everything like that. I managed to text my husband who was sitting outside. They brought me into another room and luckily enough, I was actually allowed for him to come in as well. She basically just told us that unfortunately, like stuff like this is very rare, but stuff like this does happen. And she doesn't really know why it happened. It's just something that, you know, the baby dies early on and gets absorbed into the sac. And I asked for the surgery, asked for a DNC. And the doctor kind of said to me oh because of covid they

wouldn't put us to put me to sleep under general anesthetic and obviously i don't want to be awake for that so so uh she said just i've had a previous miscarriage that all came out naturally and was was absolutely fine so she said i'll just try you know pass this one naturally again so i said okay so i went back home and to be honest I didn't really have a lot of pain it was completely different to my first miscarriage so I was like do you know what like as horrible as it is I kind of felt a bit lucky because I didn't have to go through all the extreme pain and blood loss that I went through last year um and then I did a pregnancy test again three weeks later which was like my checkup one, and it was still positive. So I went back in for another scan and they saw that I had a lot of pregnancy tissue left.

And basically I hadn't actually passed anything. So they gave me a medical management treatment, which is they inserted some pessaries to basically soften your cervix to let everything come out. That, which I assumed had worked, I had about nine hours at home in agony and just so much blood loss and clots, and oh, it was horrible. Luckily, I was at home for that, so I was with my husband, so I wasn't alone, so it wasn't too bad. I assumed everything had passed. Three weeks later, I stopped bleeding, sorry, after that, and I was absolutely fine.

I had a little bit of cramps here and there, but nothing unusual. Three weeks later, I took another pregnancy test and it was still positive. Fatma, in essence, your entire experience went on for weeks of discomfort, to put it mildly um pain I'm sure severe pain at times and just the mess and the stress of it all yeah yeah it was it was not only emotionally like horrible it was also physically you know it was I kind of got like you thought you'd think oh a miscarriage would be over within two to three weeks.

That's what they normally say. But it just wasn't. It just didn't stop. And it was like every time I went to the hospital, I got the bad news. I got the bad news. I was that rare person that had everything go wrong that could go wrong. How much of that do you think was just your really unfortunate experience and how much was down to the lockdown um i think if it wasn't for covid when i asked for that operation in the first place straight after i found out that there was no baby i think i would have got it with the general anesthetic and they wouldn't have longed the process because they kept saying because of covid because of covid they didn't want to keep doing the surgery.

I think if it wasn't for COVID, I probably would have had it done straight away. And again, our thanks to Fatma for being willing to tell her experience of that second miscarriage in her case during lockdown. So let's bring in consultant gynaecologist Christine Akechi, who's speaking on behalf of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. Christine, good morning to you. Good morning. Just my final question there to Fatma. Did she go through something that she might have gone through anyway? Or was her experience uniquely dreadful because of the lockdown and the impact of COVID? Well, the first thing to say is that to hear the distress that Helen and Fatma went through

is very difficult for me to hear and to listen to. We know that for any woman who unfortunately experiences a miscarriage or indeed any other complication in early pregnancy, such as an ectopic pregnancy. There is the physical and also the emotional impact. What we also know, in addition, is that due to the restrictions put in place during the COVID or at the height of the COVID pandemic to keep women, their family and staff safe, this would have added an extra layer of difficulty as experienced by the women.

So Fatma mentions the restrictions to surgery. And she is indeed correct about that. And that is because, as well as the implications with the reduction in staff at the acute stage of the pandemic. Also, making sure that we had the facilities available for the acute need, people who were arriving very sick due to COVID. But also, because of the risk of administering a general anaesthetic, not only to the the patient but also to the staff in the theatre the sensible decision was taken that we would only perform surgery where we felt the

benefits outweighed the risks. Right just to interrupt you there you're talking about the it's normally referred to as a DNC. Yes so the terminology that we use now is an evacuation of retained products, so an ERPC. But many women will commonly know it termed a DNC. I mean, it doesn't actually matter how you term it. It sounds brutal either way, to be perfectly honest. Anybody who's been through it will know exactly what that is like. So actually, I think speaking on behalf of myself, I've had miscarriages, I know many of our listeners will have been through it too. It can be rather difficult to have a D&C, if we use that terminology, even in the best of circumstances, and there's no great time to have a miscarriage.

Absolutely. And this is one of the things for those of us that work within early pregnancy, we're very concerned to highlight, which is the resources that is dedicated to delivering quality, safe, effective care for women who are diagnosed with a miscarriage and need a D&C, for example. Unfortunately, it tends to be in some areas, a service that is very much at the bottom of the ladder. And just as you have mentioned, for any woman and indeed their partner, who unfortunately has to go through a diagnosis, and then the steps to make sure that they have the correct management, it can be very difficult to access the services when they need it. So you're effectively saying this is something of a Cinderella service? It has been, but there are many of us that are working to highlight this issue and to improve the level of service where we can. ar gyfer cyhoeddi'r mater hwn ac i wella'r lefel o gwasanaeth lle gallwn.

Mae hefyd yn bwysig bod hyn wedi'i gyflawni'n dda iawn gyda chyfweliad pwysig a pwysig iawn a chymorth o ran ymgyrchu cynnar. Ac yn olaf, i'r gwirionedd, i'r gwirionedd i ddweud am y profiadau a'r profiadau. Ar gyfer hyn, mae ymdrech a'r ymdrechau ectopic pregnancies has been something of a taboo subject. Many women would not have been aware as to how frequent miscarriages occur. And I think that on an advocacy level, it's very important that women do talk about their experiences so we can see where the gaps are and work very hard to plug those gaps. I think a really important...

Improving the services that we deliver. Yeah, sorry to interrupt you, Christine, but I think a really important question would be what has been learned during lockdown in case, unfortunately, we have to go through all this again? I think it's a very important question and I think it's a question that's not only pertinent to early pregnancy services, but indeed any service within the NHS. Well, can we just focus on early pregnancy? Because obviously that's what we're talking about this morning. Of course. Of where we've had restrictions to partners for women who have been diagnosed with a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancies, we know how difficult that is, how important it is to have an advocate's second pair of ears at a time when hard news and difficult news is delivered.

I suspect that we probably would not find ourselves in a similar situation again. I think that we have learned a lot about where we need to restrict services and what impact that may have on the delivery of services. Of course, where there has been a significant impact on the availability of staff, that of course that will determine the level of service that can be delivered. But I think it's very important that we hear what women are saying and we learn from that going forward. And where we can, we try not to limit the access for women and their birth partners. Earlier in the lockdown, we had a very memorable edition of Women's Hour when we talked to women who had indeed given birth during lockdown. And it was in some cases a terrifying and let's be honest, a very lonely business for some of them. It was incredibly moving stuff. Actually, I was in awe of their sheer guts.

But we need to emphasise and we emphasise then and we'll do it again now that if you have any concerns about a pregnancy, you must seek help. Absolutely. Many services now have restored their services to what they were almost pre this pandemic. But it's very important that women are reassured that services remain open, if at the very least by way of telephone access. And we are here waiting to see women. I also want to reassure women not to feel nervous about entering any clinical space if they are asked to do so. That for us as healthcare professionals, the infection prevention control measures are in place to keep women and staff safe. There are many ways to access information, not least from your local early pregnancy unit, but of course, by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists,

or indeed the Tommy's Charity. There are many ways to access information and I would encourage women to do so. Well, we'll put some links on our website later. Thank you very much. I'm grateful. Consultant gynaecologist, Christina Ketchy, who is representing the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. So the Woman's Hour website, the source of so much useful information, of course, bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. I'm sure you did enjoy Listener Week. That was last week. So that's all still available on BBC Sounds. At the beginning of this week, we did a bank holiday programme about the 40th anniversary of the brilliant Willie Russell play, Educating Rita. I think that's one of my favourite ever editions of Woman's Hour to present. And that is on BBC Sounds as well.

You can get that. There were so many great contributors and some wonderful emails from you afterwards as well, just about the sheer power of learning and how wonderful it is to go back to education. Next week on the programme, we're asking Botox, would you? Stephanie Yaboa talks about her new book, Fatally Ever After. That's interesting.

That's going to be a real talking point. And later in the week, how not to be late is being late a bad habit you can change. No, I haven't had Botox. I think that was the implication from next door, rather an appalling lack of support from the production area this morning. Although would I have? No, I won't have Botox. I've decided. Now to A Match Made in Heaven. British Muslim women write about love and desire. This is a new anthology, lots of different stories about sex and relationships. And it features the work of emerging writers who went to workshops in Leeds, in Bradford and in Glasgow.

And the aim of the anthology is really very simple. It's to get beyond the stereotypes of subservient Muslim women. The editors were Nafisa Ali and Claire Chambers. And one of the writers is with us as well, Noreen Hack. Noreen, first of all, good morning to you. Good morning. We're going to hear a little bit of your story rearranged in a moment or two, but stay with us. We're very grateful to have you. And also welcome to Nafisa and Claire. Good morning. How are you both?

Morning. Very well. Good, good. Nafisa, would you mind just starting for us? These workshops, whose idea were they? worked at the University of Sheffield and we were funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council in order to break down the range of stereotypes around Muslim women and living in patriarchal societies and also the negativity around Muslims in general as well. So what we wanted to do was actually change these stereotypes and actually look at the range of experiences and look more towards the everyday experiences that Muslims have. The additional element to this was the love and desire side of it and looking at personal relationships.

So that's how we started with the project. And was the intention that these workshops would be, well, for a start, they were accessible. They're completely free. Yes. Did you have to have any qualifications at all to turn up no i think what we were looking at was actually just um trying to include more people um into creative writing but also looking at um the element of diversity within creative writing so you you did um you know the the you did, you know, you did have to be Muslim.

That was one of the criteria that we were looking at. But also we were looking at young Muslims as well who could tell new stories. And you didn't have to have any experience. You could be a novice. You could be a budding writer. You could just even have an interest previously. And, you know, you might have left it for a while and come back to it. So no, no experience at all.

And that was actually the benefits of it, really, because we had such a group, a range of people within the groups that these fantastic stories came and everybody had a different lens in which they viewed love and desire. Yeah, no, some really interesting stuff in the anthology. Claire, probably a daft question in a way, but how did you know the appetite for these workshops was there? I think there really is an appetite and too often British Muslims are associated with problems. And when we think about love and desire, we think of Rotherham and grooming gangs on the male side. Or if we think about women, we tend to think of Rotherham and grooming gangs on the male side or if we think about women we tend to think of passive or repressed women and that's not most people's experience at all and I think what Nafisa was saying about ordinary non-stereotypical non-sensational experiences was something that writers were very keen to get across.

Go on. And so in the anthology, I mean, there's such diversity, not only of the writers themselves, as Nafisa's been outlining, but in terms of there's a real variety in the tonal palette. So there's, you know, greatly humorous stories, you know, very irreverent pieces, you know, sometimes, you you know very edgy and shocking yes well there's at least at least one story genuinely shocked me oh but that's a good thing that's a good thing isn't it well that was the one about the porn um which we'll see if we

can get on to that um let's bring in nori nori and i want to know a little bit about how you felt when you went to the workshop what What was that like for you? I absolutely loved the workshops, every single minute of it. I mean, you know, my experience before that, I'd only ever been to another kind of course. And when I went to that one, it was quite negative in the sense that the teacher of the class turned around and did as apropos of nothing and decided to say muslim women who wore the hijab were downtrodden and oppressed and i remember sitting there the only one with my hijab on and all eyes were on me and i was just so utterly shocked and that comment was just delivered so casually as if

it was nothing so coming to these workshops was just so it was just like a breath of fresh air to meet other creative mus Muslim women who had really similar experiences and interests and were passionate about writing and it was I remember feeling at the time it was like being in a room full of unicorns you know like but not that it was not that the talent isn't out there but having access to women who were given that space and opportunity to be openly creative and it was just an amazing thing to witness and experience and be part of and um you know they were hosted in um Glasgow Women's Library which is a fantastic place it's just so kind of um welcoming and open and and the really good thing is that the workshops have actually

continued there and specifically on playwriting so in conjunction with um Stella Quine's Theatre Company so um I've actually just finished writing a play, which will be read at Glasgow Women's Library, hopefully February of next year. So this has had a real impact on, well, your interest in work and your ideas have been sparked by the workshop and you feel more confident, clearly. Oh, definitely, yes. I mean, you know, the workshop's finished in 2018

and since then I have written flash fiction, short fiction. I've started writing my own novel. I don't think I would have considered these things possible before. That's fantastic. Can we hear a little bit of your short story, Rearranged? Just set it up for us. It's about a woman whose husband has died. That's right.

So she's an older woman and she has realised that she's been in this unhappy marriage and she feels like she's never really lived. And now she's finally free to make a fresh start and choose her own ideal husband. So the story catalogues her experience on a matrimonial website and going online and meeting people and the disasters that she faces on this kind of journey to self-discovery, her search for happiness and it's about her love of life and poetry as well. Okay, can we just hear a little extract from it? Yes, sure. She had been married to Gesumfer for over three decades. It had been 30 years of bland indifference. Even on the day she accepted his proposal, she had suspected she would one day find herself telling the story of their engagement with a sigh. But her family wanted her to marry him, and that was the way things were. Not like now, when young people did as they pleased.

She sighed and waited for her laptop to snap into life. She brought up the website, took a bite from her cheese and chaat masala sandwich sandwich and typed in her login details. Username 58jaffacakes. The road not taken. And what had her parents based their decision on? Did they admire his wit? Were they impressed with his charisma or recognise the traits of a kind, caring, selfless nature? No.

He had the right job, was the right colour colour sported the appropriate amount of facial hair she was stabbing at the keyboard and had to force herself to stop and breathe out her frustration well now there was no one left to disapprove she typed out the words yes let's meet and clicked send and i don't want to spoil it but she does meet him. And Noreen, I suppose I listened to that and listening to it and I read it too. There's a real attitude about that story. And it probably says a lot about my understand that there is no simple Muslim woman cliche. No, exactly. Yeah. And I find it funny that there is that cliche out there because, you know, my experience is just so the reverse of that. And I use the characters to kind of, and the humor to kind of portray all those wonderfully confident, opinionated, at times matriarchal and eccentric Pakistani women that I've encountered my whole life.

And it just made the story a lot of fun to write as well. And it's clearly set you off on a real creative journey. So brilliant. Obviously, your involvement has meant a great deal to you. Naveesa, some of the writers have used pseudonyms. Now, why is that? Yeah, so our project was bringing people in as well. So as Muslim women and some were South Asian, we had a range.

So we had some who were Middle Eastern as well. When you're coming into groups and talk about love and desire, it's not something that Muslim women with these intersections can just openly talk about. So we had the advantage to say to women that when you're writing fictional pieces, which doesn't have to be based on your life anyway, you have the advantage that you can actually fictionalize your name as well with a pseudonym. And that really created a safe space for these women to broach upon topics that they were actually sometimes quite fearful of talking about.

Not that they don't talk about all women talk about these issues, you know, personal relationships and marriage and, you know, their hopes and aspirations. But it's not something that you will go and talk to a stranger about openly. You know, I wouldn't do that myself. So we had to create these spaces that were comfortable for them. So whether it was fictionalising your own experiences or whether it was placing a pseudonym on your own name in the book or just in the stories that they were creating, actually gave these women the spaces that they needed to explore, know their hopes their fears and their desires really clearly noreen is now going to well she is a writer and she's clearly doing all sorts of writing but i imagine some women came along had a real sense of achievement but perhaps won't do it again is that right yeah so we've it's

interesting because everybody's had a different experience with the group and with the creative writing like I said everyone you know there were a lot of people who are apprehensive at the beginning and for me it's fantastic because I've seen the women grow you know from the first group when you know from the first moment they attended to even you know just messaging me and saying you know come attend to actually the end product and some people won't actually you know continue their writing however they've grown in confidence which is fantastic you know they've grown in confidence of how they want to approach things and actually even if they don't change their behavior they've actually been able to voice that they would like to do, how they would like to approach relationships.

And sometimes that's hard, especially when you're from diverse communities and you've got potential judgements placed on you. Did any woman who took part in the workshop face judgment or problems at home as a result of taking part? I think what we've got to remember as well, you know, just because they're Muslim women or, you know, they have a culture group, their fears are not necessarily any different to any other women. So, you know, everybody... I was going to mention, actually, of course, that when we talked about educating Rita earlier in the book, Rita was also thwarted in her attempts to educate herself by her partner.

So it goes right across the board, doesn't it? Exactly. And this was a fantastic thing of it as well. They did come as Muslim women, but mainly they bonded over their experiences as women. So some people had mixed relationships outside of their community group. And it was about sharing these experiences. And they bonded over the connections of, you know, the personal relationships, you know, what they want, what they'd hoped to have, and maybe how they'd approach things. We do have to remember there are some constraints, cultural constraints or religious expectations that they actually want to embrace as well. It's not necessarily negative, but there's so many multiple layers

that they could actually speak to each other on. And this is a good thing about the anthology as well. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry to interrupt you, but thank you very much indeed. That was the editor of the anthology, A Match Made in Heaven, Nafisa Ali, and Claire Chambers played a part in that as well. And you also heard from the writer Noreen Hack.

So look out for that name because I think she's going to do a lot of interesting stuff over the next couple of years. Now, I did say on the radio programme, so I'm going to say on the podcast as well, that I do sound so pompous, but I do have to announce that I have decided to leave Woman's Hour at the end of the year. But I'm hanging around like a bit of a bad smell until the end of December of 2020. So still much to enjoy. And of course, still so many occasions on which I could get it spectacularly wrong

between now and the end of December. So stay with us. I will be getting really maudlin and emotional, but not until December the 29th. And I'm staying on Radio 4 as well. So let that be a warning to you. Thanks to everybody who contacted the programme today. It was really our interviews about miscarriage that resonated with you, as I would expect.

It's such a difficult subject and it must have been awful to go through a miscarriage, particularly during the early months of lockdown. Truly, truly awful, I would imagine. So my heart goes out to anyone who has or any couple who have been through that over the course of the last couple of months. Sarah emailed to say, I'm listening to this and in particular, the experience of the young woman who miscarried. And it took several weeks of repeated drugs and medication, which failed to bring the pregnancy to an end following that scan with no heartbeat. A close family member had an almost identical experience, but in 2018, long before lockdown. It took over a month before she was finally offered a DNC. It isn't correct, I don't think, for your speaker to use lockdown to explain the limitation of a DNC.

It was happening long before and it was extremely traumatic for my family member. Well, to be fair to Christine, who was our expert, she did acknowledge my point, actually, that it was indeed sometimes very difficult to get a DNC. But thank you very much, Sarah, for that email. And it also resonated that item with a listener who will, I think, stay anonymous. But she said, I've just stopped cleaning my house. I'm just here in tears listening to your miscarriage stories. I've had three myself and it's bringing it all back. You never forget them and how distressing it is. We should talk much more about this as I didn't know

how common it was when my first miscarriage happened. And you can feel very alone and desperate to find a reason for it so you can mitigate it next time. Sadly, I found after lots of tests that sometimes there's just no obvious cause. The information overload feeling is to be expected and it's easier to have somebody with you. It must have been so hard for these women to go in on their own. I have done it on my own, once with my mum and once with my partner, but it's a horrific piece of news when they scan you and there's nothing there. When previously that little heartbeat was flashing and you still feel pregnant.

Yeah, those poor women to be dealing with this during such a difficult time. Sending love to all, says the listener, who goes on to say, Now wiping my face and back to the cleaning, Thank you to that listener for emailing us today. It does mean a huge amount to the programme when people take the time to contact us with their own experiences. Now, next week, amongst other things, I'll be talking to the author Deborah Harding, who's written a memoir about the impact of violence on families. It's called Dancing with the Octopus. We'll talk to her about Botox. Would you? Could you? Should you? I haven't, and I don't think I ever will, but who knows? I reserve the right to change my mind. And later next week, Stephanie Yeboah will talk about her new book, Fatally Ever After, and we'll talk too about how to stop being late.

I just can't stand it when people keep me waiting. I mean, I can keep them waiting. Obviously, that's an entirely different matter. Join me on Monday, live just after 10, and the highlights of the week on Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow afternoon, just after four. BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts. A new podcast drama series on BBC Sounds. No Place But The Water.

The story of a hotel at the end of the world where there's no place else to run to. But there's just one thing, one thing I try not to remember. When I first saw the hotel, when it dived out the water, so big, so strange, I couldn't help looking at its reflection. And when I did that, it was so weird. I think I saw, I mean, I know I didn't, like an optical illusion. In the water, in the reflection. I saw someone standing there, waiting for us to arrive.

No Place But The Water. A new drama podcast series from BBC Radio 4, set in a future flooded world. When there is no place but the water, where do you go? Subscribe to No Place But The Water on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.