Woman's Hour - Hints and tips on helping your child settle into primary school.

Episode Date: August 5, 2019

Hints and tips on helping your child settle into primary school from early years consultant Helen Stroudley and mum of two Vibha Ghei who are part of a new BBC Bitesize Campaign. According to the TUC, half of women have experienced sexual harassment in the workplace. Rights of Women have just launched the only specialist free legal advice line in England and Wales to help them. We hear more from Deeba Syed, senior legal advisor from Rights of Women, and Dame Heather Rabbatts, Chair of TIME’S UP UKPlus Dame Victoria Sharp the new President of the Queen’s Bench Division - the first woman to hold the post - which makes her the third most senior member of the judiciary of England and Wales. And dress historian Amber Butchart with another in her series about our summer wardrobe staple - today espadrilles.Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; DEEBA SYED, Guest; DAME HEATHER RABBATTS Guest; HELEN STROUDLEY Guest; VIBHA GHEI Guest; DAME VICTORIA SHARP Guest; AMBER BUTCHART

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It is the 5th of August and this is the 5th of August, appropriately, edition of Woman's Hour. On the podcast today, what it's like to start primary school and you can hear an interview with the new president of the Queen's Bench Division, Dame Victoria Sharp joins us. She is now one of the most senior members of the judiciary. We're going to start this morning with a helpline, a new helpline. The actress Emma Watson actually is one of the people who's helped to fund it. It is free legal advice on a helpline for women who've been sexually harassed at work. According to TUC figures, that is half or about half of all working women in this country.

Astonishing. But maybe you're listening and thinking, no, that isn't astonishing at all. Again, you can get involved, of course, via social media. Deba Saeed is the Senior Legal Advisor from Rights of Women. This is a charity which will help to run the helpline. Deba, good morning to you. Good morning. And in our studio in Edinburgh is Dame Heather Rabatz, who's chair of Time's Up UK. And you're very much a part of all this as well, aren't you, Heather? Does it depress you that it's needed at all?

It does in many ways. Ironically, a long time ago, I was a volunteer at Rights of Women and we were talking about sexual harassment then. And sexual harassment is still deeply rooted in our culture and that's why having this advice line and why Time's Up in helping to fundraise the monies to support this we believe it's crucially important that women get this advice immediately so that they can both feel less isolated and also understand what their rights are. Right, we wouldn't normally focus too much on the showbiz angle here, but it is worth saying that Emma Watson has put her money where her mouth is here. She's made a very big contribution

to this. She has made a very big contribution alongside, I have to say, you know, many, many others who, through the movement that Time's Up has catalyzed, has raised the profile of this issue. Sexual harassment, ensuring that women are treated with dignity and respect across all sectors is fundamentally important, alongside the work that we're trying to do to bring around longer sustainable change, which is why working with the government's proposed consultation paper on ensuring employers have responsibilities to tackle sexual harassment is

also important. Right so it's about the atmosphere in your workplace and employers ultimately are responsible for that. They are and I think one of the hugely important dimensions to the work that Time's Up is supporting and promoting is absolutely about tackling that in the workplace across many different levels, including, of course, trying to ensure that we move to organisations where women and men are equal in terms of seniority so that we don't have this position of men always being in power in the most senior levels we know that will make a difference right and of course we do know deeper that men with power can use that power in very constructive ways and in enormously destructive ways as well and women can all too often be the victims of that yeah we are concerned about the power dynamics that come into play when a woman's been sexually harassed at work. So from that same TUC study, we know four out of five women choose never to report the sexual harassment that they've experienced. And I think that really

speaks to the fact that sexual harassment is just very normal and commonplace in the workplace, and it doesn't seem to them worth raising a complaint about. So really what we want to do on the advice line is educate women about their legal rights, tell them that they don't have to accept this kind of behaviour and that they have recourse to action, whether that is if they want to raise a grievance, so a complaint with their employer, or if they want to pursue a claim in the employment tribunal. But we are going to be there our women employment lawyers who are volunteering on the line are going to be explaining the law

that's relevant to them and also things like knowing that if you want to bring a claim you've got three months to do so which a lot of women might not know about so that's the kind of information you can get on the line. You are still looking for volunteers are you to help with the helpline yes yes we've got some volunteers but we're always looking for more volunteers so we all of our services are by women for women so we are looking for women employment lawyers who have a specialism in sexual harassment law to answer the phone and give advice directly to the women calling when does does the helpline open? So it opens tonight at 6pm. The opening times are on our website. So if you want to go to www.rightsofwomen.org.uk,

you can see the phone number and the opening times there. And we are hoping to add more opening times too. What sort of stories are you expecting to hear? So there's not a lot of data on sexual harassment. So the government haven't been collecting it up until sort of Me Too happened when people started deciding that we should care about this issue more. But what we've done as an organisation is conduct research and focus groups into sexual harassment in the workplace. And what we know from those focus groups is that women are very unhappy with the way that their sexual harassment complaints have been dealt with to date. So they felt that their employers weren't taking the issue seriously

enough. They weren't protecting their confidentiality and making it extremely difficult for those women to come forward in the first place. And all the burden is on the woman to raise a complaint in the first place. So as Heather says, what we'd like to do is see that responsibility shift away from women and more onto employers so that women are encouraged to come forward because it will be ultimately the employer who will be held responsible if they don't. Sure. Heather, does it frustrate you that we're still, even on this programme, in this environment, still having the conversation, why don't women report,

when perhaps we all ought to be asking, why are men still doing it? Well, that is the million-dollar question. Of course, in many ways, this is disappointing that we are still fighting these battles that we've had for decades. However, what I would say is both with Me Too, with Time's Up, and what is now happening, I think there is a stronger and stronger voice of women, both about coming forward, but also fundamentally about organisations recognising that they have to come to grips with this. They cannot stand by

and have a culture where women are harassed in the workplace. You can no longer be complicit. And I think that getting to that point, I think, is hugely important in terms of creating long-term sustainable change. Okay, but how do you make companies or big organisations suffer? Unless you hit them where it really hurts, how will this have any impact? to catalyse times up. So the reputation, I also think that people do, you know, both men and women do want to be better in terms of the culture that they have in their organisation so that women and men can enjoy workplaces with respect and with dignity.

So it's not about just blaming people. It is about constructively, how do we make this difference together? The advice line will provide support at that moment of crisis, sadly, for many, many women. But also, how do we build change organisationally? That's why the government's consultation paper is important. And that's why the work that we do at Time's Up is also important to promote those longer term changes. These issues are live everywhere. There have been problems at the BBC. There have been problems at Westminster. Very well documented.

Deba, what would you say about all that? Yeah, so we know that sexual harassment affects women across all sectors, but we want to collect more data on this. So we think having this advice line will help us build a picture of what's happening and the kind of women who are more vulnerable. We know that younger women tend to be more sexually harassed, but we know that organisations who deal with BME women are telling us that they are seeing sexual harassment as a big problem. And also there was a recent study by the TUC as well about how LGBTQ people are also more vulnerable to sexual harassment in the workplace. So we're hoping the advice line will help us build a better picture so that we can work on our policy work and create sustainable change.

One of the big problems appears to be that many women who have suffered in this area have signed or been made to sign or gently encouraged or more than gently encouraged to sign a non-disclosure agreement. Deba, what would you say about them? So non-disclosure agreements will be the kind of thing that women can call our advice line about and get information on. What are they? Just for the benefit of anyone listening who isn't entirely sure, what are they?

So that is a clause in a contract which says that a person has to keep the claim or they have to keep the complaint of sexual harassment private and we are concerned that this was being has been used unethically in the past to almost silence women and use as a weapon of silence against them so what we you know there are legitimate times where a non-disclosure agreement is something that could be in a settlement agreement if you're leaving your job, for example, protecting a trade secret. But we don't want non-disclosure agreements to be ever used to cover up harassment in the workplace or protect a serial harasser. But you're pretty certain they have been used in exactly that way? Yeah, we know that they have been used in that way. So that's why the government is consulting at the moment about what kinds of things a

non-disclosure agreement can cover. So that's the kind of thing we'll be telling women on the advice line. So for example, we don't want it to be difficult for them to go to the police or speak to their GP, which sometimes non-disclosures agreements prohibited. They can ban you from talking to your doctor. Yeah, that has been the case. Wow. And that's why it's hugely important with the government consultation paper that issues around these disclosure agreements are really tackled

so that you can't use them to hide the fact that you have a sexual harassment claim in your company and in your organisation. That's the point about being complicit. You can't be complicit. And we want to see the use of non-disclosure agreements restricted to their proper and legitimate purposes. Thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Dame Heather Abatz, who's the chair of Times Up UK and Deepa Saeed, who is one of the people who works for Rights for Women.

She's a senior legal advisor there. That's the charity which will help to run the helpline. Details of which are on the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. Now we are talking later in the programme today about starting primary school and I asked what you thought.

Katie has tweeted to say, I'm a TA about starting primary school and I asked what you thought. Katie has tweeted to say, I'm a TA in a primary school. One really practical thing parents can do, and there is still time, she says, make sure your child is confident using the toilet on their own and can wipe their own bottom. It makes a huge difference to the child's ability to settle in at school.

So that's the stuff we need. Your questions, your comments on starting primary school, please. You can ping them off to us right now because we'll talk about it in about 15 minutes' time, something like that. Now, Dame Victoria Sharp has been sworn in as the new president of the Queen's Bench Division. She's the first woman to hold that position.

It does make her one of the most senior members of the judiciary in England and Wales. Now, Victoria became a barrister in 1979 and a QC in 2001, and she practised in defamation and media law. She's been talking to Tina Dehealy about her career, and Tina asked Victoria if she hoped we'd ever reach the point where there'd be no more female firsts in our legal profession. I do. And I strongly believe that time is getting ever closer. Optimistic. I am always optimistic. The law chief justice said Dame Victoria, this is a quote, has taken on one of the biggest jobs in the law. Is it a job you ever expected to get?

No, I never expected to be where I am. So I have to pinch myself on occasion to remind myself I'm here. But it's a fantastic job. It's a privilege to do it. And I work with some of the most intelligent people in the country, making very important decisions that affect people's lives. And it's something that I am proud to do. How did you get it? Well, there's a long journey before you get to the point where you can apply for a job like this. But in fact, the application is made by an open competition

from amongst the senior judiciary. I have watched your swearing-in ceremony on YouTube. Have you watched it back? My children have watched it. I have not watched it. You need to watch it. I mean, on the one hand, it's so old school, isn't it? Were you nervous being sworn in? What was that like? No, I wasn't nervous. I think I was very conscious of the fact that it's an important public occasion because I'm not there for me. I'm there in the role that I do.

My role involves being a judge, it involves a great deal of what other people might call management, but it also involves a public-facing role, including on criminal policy, as I think the Lord Chief Justice said. It's taken a lot of hard work and a long time to get to where you are. You were called to the bar 40 years ago. Can you tell us a bit more about what that was like back in 1979 as a woman? The world has changed so much that it's very difficult for people of your age, may I say, to imagine what it was like back then. When I started, women weren't allowed to wear trousers and a special dispensation was

made for one woman because she had a problem with one of her legs. There were very few women at that stage, including when I became a QC and took silk. There were very few women who had maintained the path because although a lot of women came into the bar and started work, most of them found it was too difficult to carry on. And so by the time I took silk, I was one of the few women of my age who had actually stuck with it. It's fantastic that you are blazing a trail, but it must be challenging, certainly in the past, working in a male-dominated environment. Yes, I've never really seen it like that because I've always seen myself as a person doing a job in a profession. And I think one of the great things about being at the bar and indeed being a judge is that what matters is how well you do the job.

There are other circumstances that prevent women from entering professions and maintaining their path within it. But actually, it's a meritocracy. If you do the job well, you will succeed. You have a reputation for hard work, we learnt, and stubbornness, but also a sense of fun. Can you tell our listeners who don't know the story of the exploding cigarettes when you were doing your pupillage? Yes. When I was a pupil, I never liked the smell of cigarette smoke. My pupil master smoked a particularly strong brand of French cigarettes. And so I decided to show my feelings about the matter by putting in a little exploding device. But I think in the swearing in, they said it was gunpowder. Of course, that would have been very dangerous. I didn't do that. It was a little device specifically to make

cigarettes explode. Unfortunately for me, it exploded at a time when he was having a conference, but he took it in good part. And he wasn't hurt. He wasn't hurt, no he wasn't. Good and it was your stubbornness that got you back into work on a Monday morning having been knocked down by a car outside the Royal Courts of Justice on the Friday. How did that happen? How did the accident happen? Yes and you get going into work on the Monday. I'm not sure that the word stubbornness quite describes it. It's a real, it's a dedication actually to the job because when you are acting for individuals,

their day in court is the most important day for them and you don't want to let people down. And so I think that's part of what drove me on that occasion to leave hospital and go straight back to court which is what I did. Dedication is a better word I think. Is that what has led you to becoming a third most senior member of the judiciary of England and Wales? Yes you can't do the job I do you can't actually do many jobs without dedication and extremely hard work. I mean, I think you've said yourself on several occasions that you've reached your position,

which is a very eminent one as a journalist and as a presenter, by working very, very hard. And I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said, the harder you work, the luckier you get. And that's absolutely true. And it brings its own reward, the reward of doing a job well. And if you're given the right opportunities, the reward of advancing in your career, which is what has happened to me. What drew you to law in the first place? Was it an inevitable career choice for you? No, no member of my family had ever been a lawyer. But I had, and still have, fortunately, a very naughty twin brother. And I think my mother's view was that I spent most of my time defending him. And the other thing I have to say was, I decided I wanted to be a barrister when I was 14. Because I knew it was going to be a huge challenge. At that stage, it was one of those professions that had very few women there. And I knew it was going to be difficult. And I decided I was jolly well going to do it.

What compromises, if any, have you had to make along the way? You can't do the work that I do. And I say judges work very hard. I know many other people do too, but you can't do everything. I'm very fortunate. I have a lovely family, a very supportive husband, and I've devoted my time really to them and to my work. I'm often asked the question, how did you manage it? And the truth is very little sleep and no social life. Don say that but people are following your path yes no you do you do have to you do have to make sacrifices because you've got to be in a fit state to do the job the next day and so you can't do everything and i decided when i had my children i decided i was going to take a very positive attitude so that I wouldn't feel guilty about not doing my job when I was

with my children and I wouldn't feel guilty about not being with my children when I was doing my job. But not everybody is the same, I know that. What happens once women enter the law profession as solicitors or as barristers? Because we look at the figures that say 2017 to 2018 and law society entry figures show of the uk students accepted onto courses 68.8 percent of female 31.2 percent of male since 2000 half of barristers are women that's great but in 2016 2017 only 31 women were successful in their application for qc status out of 113 in total. There were also 16 new QCs from black and minority ethnic backgrounds. So it seems like the higher up they go, the fewer women or ethnic minorities there are.

Well, it's a very important thing to concentrate on the roots of the tree because you need to nourish the roots in order to persuade people from different backgrounds. We're not just talking about gender here, we're talking about ethnicity and different social backgrounds. And a great deal of work is done by diversity judges who do a huge amount of work to encourage people from different backgrounds into the law. And initiatives are undertaken every day. There's a very good one going on in Liverpool at the moment called Young Detectives,

which involves bringing people into Liverpool Crown Court where they are shown how the law works. What becomes more difficult later on, which is why there is a bit of an attrition rate, is the inevitable difficulties that face women when they have families, because it's not easy to maintain a home life and a very full working life. And so although we can encourage people, we want to recruit, but we also want to retain. And that is something that is a challenge and we are working very hard

to deal with it. I mean the obvious answer would sound like part-time flexible working being an option is that not the case at the moment? For judges of course we're older so most of us have had our families and they're although big children big, I think most people would say. So you never cease being a mother once you are one. But the difficult time, I think, for people in their careers and when most part-time or flexibility is required is when they are actually at the bar and with young families. So I see it more of an issue for people who are in their 20s, 30s and 40s. The Bar Council has highlighted female

retention as a concern because, as we've just been talking about, the more women who drop out mid-career, the smaller the pool of future judges or QCs. One said change is happening but it's painfully slow. Would you agree? If you want change to happen, it's always going to feel like it's slow. But all I can say is that there have been huge improvements. I said I'm positive about it because I know how much things have changed, even in the last 10 years. When I became a high court judge in 2009, there were very few of us. The number of women applying and being successful in their applications for judicial appointment has increased enormously. So I think we want to talk about good news, but not be complacent.

Your father, when you went into law, suggested you could possibly become a High Court judge. What do you think he'd say if he could see you now? I think he'd be made up, I think is how he'd put it. Yes, he'd be made up, I think is how he'd put it. Yes, he'd be very proud. I think the day that I was sworn in, the person I was most pleased for was my mother, who's a brilliant, brilliant woman, dedicated herself to bringing up her children,

but regarded it as a full-time job. And I hope I can say she did well. Here you are now. She did well. Your children, what do they make of what you do? Well, you know what children are like. I mean, they're never going to say it to your face. They should.

I think they are. I hope they are. I hope they're pleased with their mum. I'm sure they are. Dame Victoria Sharp talking to Tina Dehealy. Thursday of this week, Women's Hour is all about money. Now, over our lives, women earn less, we save less, and often we need more money. We're going to take a close look on Thursday at managing our relationship with money,

where things go wrong and how you might start to fix it. Lots of rueful smiles around the office as we were discussing this earlier on, but that's Thursday's edition of Women's Hour, Women and Money money on friday i'm going to be talking to kathy burke i'm really looking forward to this she has made three documentaries for channel four about being a woman it's called kathy burke all women and she's our guest live on friday morning and it's listener week here on women's hour beginning on the 19th of August. This is where you dictate the content of the programme. I look forward to this every year. We want to know what you want us to talk about.

Rather than carping about the content of the programme, listening at home, you can listen at home and tell us what we should be talking about on the programme. Get your ideas in now via the website bbc.co.uk slash woman's hour. Last year, I remember we talked about books that changed our lives and that got a really, really interesting response and we revisited some wonderful books. I really enjoyed that. We could do that again this year if you fancy it.

Tell us about the book you have loved for reasons that you've just begun to reflect on maybe recently. Just tell us. We'll take anything from you via the website bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. And last year, we asked you for your family secrets and six listeners were brave enough to tell us some really compelling stories. They reflected for us on what it was like to keep a secret, whose secret it was and whether in the end, it was better to know the truth. Now we're looking for more from you for Series 2.

First of all, here's a brief reminder of what we heard last year. Prue, who found out that the man who'd brought her up wasn't her biological dad. Liz, whose father had had an affair that resulted in a brother she knew nothing about. And first, Moira, on her secret. I knew that there was a secret, and I kind of knew, almost knew what it was. I just didn't have a name for it.

Even by five or six, I was very, very aware of things I was allowed to say around this subject. When we were kids, probably quite little kids, playing kids playing you know playing out in the street and I think I must have had an argument with another child who just came back to me and said your mother's mental it's the time I remember thinking that it wasn't just our secret or that actually it wasn't a secret and that we hadn't contained it in our household. This has grown to be one of the big, if not the biggest thing in my life, because it's about my own identity. It's about me and who I am. It's a primal thing.

I have to know. I can't rest till I know. Finding out that my parents had kept a secret from us for so long, that was the hardest thing. So not the secret itself? Not the secret itself. Well, speaking for myself, and I think my brothers would probably say the same thing, it was finding out that my loving parents had kept a secret from us for so long. You heard that from Prue, from Liz, and first of all, it was Moira. So do you have a secret you're willing to tell us about? Talk about the impact of it on you and perhaps on the rest of your family and other people close to you.

Contact the programme via the website, by email, or you can use social media, of course, Instagram or Twitter, at BBC Women's Hour. Now, we've been talking over the last couple of weeks on the programme to the dress historian Amber Butchart, the fashion historian, really, and here she is with another in her series about summer wardrobe staples. Now, today it's controversial stuff, this,

because we're discussing a type of shoe which, I admit, I can't bear. It is the espadrille and when we spoke I told Amber I couldn't bear it. They are by far my favourite type of summer shoe. I think they're so incredibly elegant. One of my earliest memories is seeing my mum wearing her espadrilles having them tied right up the leg and just thinking they were the chicest thing I'd ever seen. Okay, do they have to be tied up like that? They don't have to be tied up around the leg, no. There are a number of different espadrille styles but well, so firstly if we sort of give them a bit of a definition, they're a very distinctive shoe. The upper is usually made of sort of canvas or linen and it's the sole that makes the shoe

the espadrille. It's made of braided hemp or jute originally it was a plant called esparto which kind of gives the shoe its name that we have today and they're originally from catalonia and the french and spanish basque regions around the pyrenees and they were originally worn by peasants who were clambering up and down the mountainside exactly exactly not in those wedges surely, not in the wedges, in the flat versions. Okay, right. The wedges came about later. I do have some wedge versions here, but this is the flat shoes,

the flat espadrilles that peasants were wearing, which are cheap. They're very hard-wearing shoes and they're really good in hot weather, which is why they were worn so often. It's thought that they date back to even the 13th century in this region, at least. But some people have actually discovered a similar type of shoe in a 4,000-year-old cave in Spain. So think that they could be some of the earliest types of shoe. How would they have made them 4,000 years ago? Woven with what? How did they do that? I guess you would plait them. Weaving is an incredibly old technology.

Weaving has been around for a really, really long time. So, you know, making them out of the local materials, which is exactly what it was with the esparto or the jute or the hemp. And these are certainly not exclusively female shoes, are they? No, this is another unisex summer staple. And we see there are some great pictures of men, like a very young JFK wearing espadrilles. Artists like Salvador Dali, of course, you know, was displaying his heritage wearing espadrilles.

There's something that in the 20th century became sort of, again, associated with a kind of Mediterranean lifestyle, with a sort of slightly bohemian artistic lifestyle, I guess, and so became very fashionable. Hollywood as ever played a part in the sort of rise of the espadrille as well especially in the 1940s. Women like Rita Hayworth and Lauren Bacall wearing espadrilles in films in the 1940s so really sort of setting them on this road to becoming a very sort of chic glamorous fashionable summer shoe no longer associated with peasants in the Pyrenees. Yeah, well, it's all right for the peasants in the Pyrenees. I don't suppose their lives were easy,

but it probably didn't rain as much as it does here. So what happens if espadrilles get wet? That's true. Well, a lot of espadrilles today are actually made with a sort of rubber sole. Is that just in Britain, the waterproof espadrille? No, actually, these are some espadrilles that I got in Spain well over a decade ago. These are from a company that hand make them in Barcelona. They have a rubber sole and this is how well made they are. They are still going really strong over a decade. This is going to

be a daft question probably, but you can't have a heeled espadrille, can you? It's got to be either a wedge or flat. Yes, either a wedge or flat. And the wedge really came into popularity in the 1970s. There was a Spanish company called Castaña who met a young Yves Saint Laurent at a trade show in Paris. He was really keen to get someone to make a wedge espadrille for his collections. And so he partnered with this company. And so it's really from that moment in the 70s that we see them adopted into high fashion as well.

Don't they smell? No, they don't smell. I don't know why you've got such a problem with espadrilles. I'll pass you my shoe now and you can check it. No, you've gone too far now. Yeah, I did say it was controversial. Amber Butchart and the espadrille, Vicky on Twitter says, I can't bear them either. I think since wearing them on a school trip to France when they got wet on the ferry. There we are, Vicky and I.

We share the same thought patterns. At BBC Woman's Hour, if you want to get involved, particularly on our next subject, which is starting primary school. So with me in the studio is the early years consultant, Helen Stroudley who works for the charity People. Welcome to you Helen. And in our studio in Salford, Viba Gay who has children aged seven and nine. Hi Viba. Hello. So tell us how was it for you the starting primary school, your children I mean of course. So I've got a little boy, he's nine and got a girl, seven.

They're both really different you know as my boy is like an extrovert, you know, open. My girl is a bit shy, so I really had different experiences with both of them. It was easier for Arvind to make friends. He walked into school, he had so many friends straight away. With Anvi, she was a bit shy. The teacher had to assign buddies to her that she could talk to. Arvind was allowed to go and see her during lunchtime, you know, so that she felt at ease that there was somebody in school that she knew already. Yeah, and because you'd gone to the school and you'd said that your little girl perhaps was a little bit nervous, that they were understanding, were they?

The teachers were so understanding, you know. One of the advantages that I had was when my son started school, my daughter always used to go with her dad to the school, you know, to drop him, and she would always get those five minutes to play in his class when she was like two, two and a half years old. So when she started school, she knew the teachers, and the teachers were so welcoming to her. They even visited us at home before she started. So she, you know, the teachers knew what she liked, you know, what she got excited about.

She would like to read about Peppa Pig. So she was welcomed with those sort of books. Right. So they really did lay out the red carpet from the sound of things. That sounds absolutely fantastic. Absolutely. Helen, how much preparation should parents do before primary school well it's really about everyday things that they've already been doing all of these years leading up to this point but it is a big big worry all of a sudden they're thinking the summer summer holidays are going to be over and off they go and what haven't

they done um and I absolutely would say not to worry. All the things you've been doing in everyday life is what's been important, getting them ready. Well, how? You mean by, I don't know, chatting as you go about your daily business? Absolutely. So talking, but also listening to children, because learning to listen, you need to be listened to. So that's a really important skill. But just as everyday independent things, things like getting dressed every day, putting on your clothes, being able to put your shoes on, being able to collect things that you need, listening to instructions. Lots of things that you're doing all the time. Well, the listeners have been getting involved all morning.

And here's one listener who says, make your child excited, not scared by talking about how fantastic school is. I did this every morning for a fortnight before my fall began and none had tears on their first day. Parents can project their own fears and add to a child's worries. Well, that's true, isn't it? Absolutely. But it's very hard not to be worried. So I would say to parents, absolutely. But it's really good. You know your child best. So you share some fantastic experiences maybe that you had at school. Or if you didn't, maybe it's a case of thinking about what could be happening there that is exciting, because really it's play in that classroom

when they're going to be learning. So the more confident and happy they go to school, the better they'll get on. Around this time of year, we get these sorts of headlines. This is actually from the June of last year, 2018. Children starting school unable to speak or use the toilet, Ofsted head warns. And this was Amanda Spielman talking

last year. More and more children starting school without being able to talk properly or even use the toilet. Is that actually a problem that is getting worse? And it's undeniable, Helen. It is a problem that schools are finding. But actually, obviously, things make headlines. So they sort of write these big headlines. But actually, it's about every child is very, very different. But yes, speech and language is an area that we really need to support parents and children in. And it is those everyday things that they're doing and having time to do. So doing that listening as they're going around their everyday lives, when they're going to the shops, talking about everyday things. It really helps their speech and language. It's not about the reading and writing that people often worry about

when it's getting to school, it's getting ready for those things. But toilets, because our TA who contacted us earlier to point out that it really, really helps the school if every child in reception can wipe their own bottom and frankly can get to the loo on time. Absolutely. And is that problem getting worse? It's not necessarily getting worse. in reception can wipe their own bottom and frankly can get to the loo on time absolutely is that problem getting worse it's it's not necessarily getting worse i think it's a um it is a a situation where we need to support families and there is lots of advice out there and and actually it's quite straightforward if we support i'm going to play the part of the yeah go for it

well the somewhat cynical person here. Support families. If you have children, then the least you can do for your child is make sure they're continent when they start school. I mean, lots of people will be thinking exactly that thought right now, surely. So actually, what usually happens is around the age of two, which developmentally children are getting ready to be getting used to being around the toilet yeah so it's usually around that age that we think about it but actually we don't know how to toilet train our children unless we get support so there are ways that we can support them and usually the health visitor has this conversation when they have their two-year check and they talk to them about different things that they can be

doing things that are straightforward there are children that will have incontinence issues and that's very different than toilet training so it's a gp that can help there that's a totally different thing and there's lots of support for that but it is just about these everyday things and it's not just the toilet trains things like being independent like washing your hands after going to the toilet and being able to wipe yourself. But you take my point, these are basics which any carer of a small child should be able to communicate to their offspring or the person they're caring for. Yes, but actually it's one of those things that we often get worried about. So parents often worry about sleep, eating, toilet training. And actually, the more worried we are we are actually the more problems often happen

so we need to give some really clear ideas of what to do that really puts the force if we put pressure on children too early they actually have more problems which we don't want we want children to be able to feel confident to be able to go to the toilet uh v but can i just ask about your kids um in terms of what they could read or whether they could read i mean my children certainly couldn't read before they went to primary school. Did you show them books or encourage them to read or try to teach them? Before they started school. We always have had books in our house.

Obviously, you wouldn't expect them to read and write A, B, C, D. But as far as they know how to hold a pen, they know that they need to scribble on a book rather than on the wall. I think that's job done, you know. And I actually agree with Helen. You know think that's job done, you know. And I actually agree with Helen, you know, every child is really, really different. It's not about having your ambitions on your child, but letting them grow with their speed. For example, with toilet training, you know, it's summertime, and I always used to leave them open, go and play out in the summer.

At the max, what, you will get wet. That's it, that's normal. That's how they'll come and tell me, you know. And surprisingly, they left their diapers by, they were 18 months. Right, okay. You ought to write a book about that, actually. I think a lot of people will be saying, right, I need to know Weber's method and I need to know it quickly. A question for you, Helen. my daughter is summer born says this listener and has global development delay but she is reading and she's academically able so we've enrolled her in primary school this september how will we know if we've made a mistake and put her in too early we are worried she's going to struggle socially that's a really, really good question, actually. And I think I would say to your listener there that she knows her child best. She knows how she is.

And talk to the teacher. Listen to your child because they will tell you how they're getting on. And listening to them and actually having conversations, talking to the teachers, you'll be surprised how much you'll be reassured. Often it's us that worry more than the children that when they go but you know your child best uh and from caris label everything i get the impression that caris may have suffered a bit here label everything she says let your child know where the label is we have a fabulous mountain of mystery garments at the end of every year it sounds like she's in the teaching profession. I agree completely with the toileting advice. It's crucial. And buy a coat a size bigger so

your child can do it up easily themselves. There we go. I hadn't thought of that. That's a very good top tip. Veeba, you actually also made a point of reaching out to other new parents, didn't you? Yes, that's correct. Yeah. And that helped? It did help because unless you know people around unless you are comfortable you will not be able to communicate to your child. The child will pick up very easily that my parent is stressed so by talking to other parents by making friends

I knew the community I knew the teachers I knew where the child was going and I could you know communicate that to my children. They were at ease when they started. They already had been on play dates with the school friends. Yeah. So there was nothing new for them, really. That was Veeba on the live programme today, and our thanks to her for taking part.

This is from Judith. It's about toileting and starting school. And Judith is actually angry with me she says Jane there are many children out there who have additional needs many of which can impact on the capacity for independence my daughter has a condition which affects her muscles and therefore toileting was affected particularly when she was tired and therefore less in control of her muscles please when you're making statements like every parent should have taught their child how to use the toilet independently, remember that when you say all children and all

parents, there are many who cannot fit in the all camp for no fault of their own. Yeah, well, we did, I mean, I'm sorry if I offended anybody in that position, but it obviously wasn't my intention or the programme's intention. I think we did and certainly Helen you acknowledged that incontinence, continence is it's an issue for all sorts of people at various stages in their lives including adults obviously in later life and not always in later life, post-childbirth and in various other stages and children with a disability when they start school will obviously find toileting an issue but you did make make that clear, I think, in the programme. Absolutely. And schools are very, very supportive. So even children that aren't quite ready to look after their own toileting needs will be supported.

And it's about talking to your teachers and they understand. And they're very used to having spare clothes around because all children, even if they're toilet trained, will occasionally have an accident. So please don't worry. This is from Sue. I'm a TA with 40 years experience. And Sue says the toilet issue is getting worse. It is not the school's place to toilet train. Well, this is Sue's experience. Speech and language is also a huge issue with parents on phones as they pick children up and not speaking to them it's very common sadly says sue who is a ta in cheshire helen yes i mean we have technology

around now and i think it's about us um as working in education to actually talk to families and just to say these are some great things for you to do. So hopefully, you know, you can use your tablet sometimes, but not all the time. But it is very true. We are seeing more and more of that. Can I just say, I remember seeing in the park, I don't know whether it was the mother. It could have been the carer. Who knows? Pushing a child on a swing, except she was standing to the side of the swing and looking at her phone and absentmindedly pushing the swing. I do see a lot of that and it cuts across all ethnicities, all ages, in all sorts of different circumstances. It cannot be good for children, can it really? And I'm sounding like an old fart and I'm conscious of that. But I do I do feel this strongly. Yeah, it's really about.

I know you're being very careful not to criticize parents but i do i do think that there isn't we all and i think and it's about not necessarily 100 of the time having to be on the ball talking listening but it is about um sharing the messages that it that there are times and it's about interacting with the child is so important and and it's not about making parents feel guilty, but if they understand the small things they can do. So if there are times when they are listening to children, are talking, and in their everyday lives,

so when they're going to the shops, when they're going to the park, pointing things out, talking to their children, it makes a massive difference with their speech and language and their development as a whole. Yeah, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody that if you talk to your child and look at them while you're talking from as early an age as you can do it they might even before birth before absolutely you're serious i'm absolutely serious yep you can speak to your baby they can hear you um while they're in the, yep, that's the time to start talking. So although you might feel like an idiot, you should attempt it.

Absolutely. Any time of day or night. Absolutely. Let's face it, you'll be awake about 10 to 3 in the morning. So why not have a natter? Have a bit of practice. And do children in this country start school too early? I mean, that is part of the problem that, you know,

if you've got a summer-born baby, they might have just turned four and they're off to school. So it is about knowing your child and knowing what they're capable of and supporting. But actually, what we really want is children that are happy and confident going to school, because if they're happy and confident, then they'll be up for learning. And they're like sponges. They do learn so, so quickly. And they're learning all the way, like I just said said from antenatally all the way through to when they go

to school it doesn't just all of a sudden happen when they walk through the school doors yeah okay um let's bring in some more emails this is very sweet from chrissy um many years ago my first day at school was at dunedin in new zealand so at break time probably about 10 15 my neighbor and very new friend dennis and i just left the school and went home thinking, well, that was the end of the day. It was all right. We found our mothers relaxing over a cup of coffee. They then had to send us back. Those are the days when you could just wander out of school. Quarter past 10, I suppose it was. Dunedin's quite a big place in New Zealand so obviously they got home safely this is from Anonymous who just says we must talk about and this is a recurring theme I have to say Helen

we must talk about parental responsibility I am astonished at the number of children who enter primary school not able to go to the toilet themselves or hold a pencil or behave reasonably well and who've obviously not even held a book in their hands i have to say um we've got to be honest about this that there's been deprivation of various

kinds around forever i remember going to primary school and there were kids who perhaps hadn't or i don't think they had ever had access to books before and it's still happening well i was definitely not new my point was this isn't new this has been around a long time yeah and we're not using our libraries as much for example

and there is a fantastic resource there well libraries are closing yes exactly which is such a shame because you know books are expensive but it is really important

but we need to share with families why is it so important to be sharing books and there's lots of resources out there the importance of sharing books and reading and even making up stories about your day.

So it's that language-rich environment that we want for our children and having books around. We know that children that have books around, even before they start school, so from birth, it makes a big difference to how well they do at school. You do get books, don't you? Doesn't your child get a free book or several free books yes books start books um do go out but even those change yes one of my colleagues just saying you get at least two free books i remember getting

and that's if you access and and go to the health visitor to collect them all or wherever it is or a setting again stating the obvious but that the real problems are in those people who or with people who do not interact with the services engage with them at any point there are many families that are isolated and maybe they've moved to a new area they're very isolated they're not accessing the services that are around so it is about services that are out there. I work for a charity that... That's people, we should say. Yes. Spelled P-E-E-E. P-E-L-E, that's right.

And we're about supporting families to do the things with their children. And it's about the interactions and learning through everyday opportunities. So it's not about spending a lot of money. And there are, I mean, the children's centres have closed around the country, but there are people groups out there or similar groups, which are free for families to go to but it's hard to go to a group sometimes if you're isolated. Let's just briefly

point people to BBC Bitesize how do they find it? Absolutely if you go to the BBC Bitesize website there are some fantastic resources for children that are starting primary school and as well as the short films and some fantastic children telling us things there's a fantastic interactive game as well so do go and have a look at the game first day at school and you can go in the game to school

helen thank you um great help this morning thank you um and just a couple more emails on other subjects today a lot of people hugely admired um dame victoria sharp so many changes in my lifetime and i'm merely 80 says a listener called Wendy. The first female barrister was a few years ahead of me at school. She lived in the same village and got the same train every day. She was my first live role model. The name is on the tip of my tongue, but my school was Manchester High School, says Wendy. She also says, note my literary role models were Just William and Biggles and I don't think either did me any harm um wendy thank you very much for that um i'd like to hear what you liked so i quite like just william as well

biggles didn't reach me but certainly just william did um wendy thank you and another listener robin says great joy to hear dame victoria this morning rather than being young angry and in a hurry she was mature thoughtful and realistic about the process of change. It was also so pleasant to hear her refuse to be led by questions, but just sticking to her very clear and intelligent beliefs. Thank you, Robin, who obviously hugely admires Dame Victoria Sharp. And onto the hugely complex and difficult area of espadrilles. Annette says, I bought espadrilles on holiday in France every year as I grew up. They were cheap and chic.

I chose a lovely wedge pair in cream to get married in. I think that's a good place to end. I hope you're still married and happy as whatever the French for Larry is. Laurence, Annette. Thank you very much for listening and the podcast and the programme are back tomorrow. Hello, I'm John Ronson, the author of So You've Been Publicly Shamed. This is my journey into the lives of the shamed, people ruined by a badly worded tweet or work faux pas.

Along the way, I turned from being a keen shamer myself into somebody unsettled by this new zeal to judge and condemn, often on very weak evidence. That's So You've Been Publicly Shamed, read by me, John Ronson, and abridged specially for BBC Sounds. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.