Woman's Hour - Historic abortion law change in France and Pornography series

Episode Date: March 5, 2024

Two years after the US Supreme Court overturned the constitutional right to abortion, lawmakers in France yesterday made history by enshrining this right in their country's constitution - it was a global first. We talk to Stephanie Hennette-Vauchez about the change.Singer-songwriter Sarah Jane Morris performs live.We look at what's behind the cuts to Birmingham City Council's budget - equal pay or a new IT system? With Heather Jameson, editor of the Municipal Journal and Dr James Brackley, lecturer in accounting at Sheffield University.In the next part of our series about porn, Ena Miller talks to ‘Sam’ who, from an early age, measured herself by the women she saw in pornography.  And Imelda May talks about her new documentary Lilly and Lolly: The Forgotten Yeats Sisters, on Sky Arts. Elizabeth and Susan Yeats (also known as Lolly and Lilly) founded a women-only arts and crafts guild to promote women’s economic and cultural independence. Overshadowed by their famous brothers, W.B Yeats and Jack Butler Yeats…until now.Presenter: Emma Barnett Reporter: Ena Miller Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Steve Greenwood

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today I can promise you some powerful music, the story of two overlooked women who financially supported their much more famous brothers, and why some believe that America ought to look to France when it comes to enshrining women's rights into a constitution.

I say this on so-called Super Tuesday, the biggest day so far in the 2024 race for the White House, as voters in 15 states and one US territory choose candidates for the next president. But first, coming closer to home on the political front, people living in Birmingham are facing a 21% rise in their council tax bill over the next two years, as Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe, is also set to vote on a wave of cuts to local services, including bin collections, dimming of the streetlights, the adult social care budget, and closing 25 of the city's

35 public libraries. As ever, women will be disproportionately affected by some of those cuts if they go ahead, as society's primary carers, both professionally and personally. But as some are also pointing out, to make matters worse, women and their demands to be paid equally are being blamed again for the hole in the council's budget. And yet a new theory has emerged that has nothing to do with the equal pay claim. Instead, it could all be about a faulty IT system. On this programme, we do try to bring you not just the news we think you need to be aware of,

but also the stories behind it and how they impact women's lives directly and the perception of women in society. This story has both. And if you have anything to say about the potential of higher bills and how you're coping at the moment, especially ahead of the Chancellor's budget tomorrow, I'd love to hear from you. 84844 is the number you need to text on social media at BBC Women's Hour

or you can drop me an email through the Women's Hour website or WhatsApp on 03700 100 444. Just watch those charges. If you live in Birmingham and you have anything you want to get off your chest, especially when you hear a bit more detail about this story, also please feel free to get in touch using those same numbers. Let me tell you who I'm joined by now on the line.

I've got Heather Jameson, editor of the Municipal Journal, and Dr James Brackley, lecturer in accounting at Sheffield University, who's written an article today for the news site, The Conversation, about this issue in Birmingham. And good morning, James. I should also say, if I start with you, you're a Birmingham resident, your PhD is resident rather, and your PhD is in local authority finance. So you do have a focus on this. Tell us a bit more about the reality

versus what seems to be sometimes being blamed on women's equality or case for pay equality here. Yeah, so thank you. Good morning. So yeah, so we've done quite a bit of work through something called the Audit Reform Lab, looking at the latest accounts and paperwork as it comes out in Birmingham.

And what we're seeing, particularly when we look at the sort of support package that was put in place by the government, is there was a sort of pretty high-profile £700 million equal pay liability that was announced in September last year. And that was, you know, widely cited as the main reason for the bankruptcy. And just to say on that, that was female council workers demanding equal pay to men who worked at the council. We've covered the story a number of times on Women's Hour, but just in case people forget, do carry on. Fantastic. Yeah, so that's absolutely right. But what we're noticing is a couple of things

I think one is on the timing so there was very little understanding really of how that amount was reached at from various sources within the council really and that was sort of publicised before that liability had been shared with the auditors and it still, as of March 2024, hasn't been audited so it seems a little bit premature to publicise it at that point in time.

And now with our analysis, we're able to see that on the back of the failed implementation of the Oracle IT system, that they would have been bankrupt anyway, essentially. So we're seeing, even after the biggest ever cuts that we've ever seen announced recently, there's still a £240 million budget gap, none of which relates to equal pay. And there's a £400 million black hole in reserves, again, after you take away the £700 million equal pay liability. So your analysis shows that there would have been effective bankruptcy without the equal pay claims. Yes, absolutely. That seems to be the case. So we're fairly confident on that point now.

And the council's been in chaos, really, with regards to Oracle. So we've seen documents that have suggested 70,000 transaction errors, not been able to collect council tax debt, not been able to monitor the budget. Again, I don't wish to interrupt unnecessarily, but Oracle, it may be the first time anyone's heard of this particular IT issue. Of course, people may be thinking of another glitched IT system

when they're thinking of the post office, for instance, and what's gone on there. But just, I know it's not your area of expertise, but this is a system, what, that the council has to have to be able to run itself, collect money from others. Is that why it's so important? Yeah, indeed. So everything from all of the payroll for the tens of thousands of staff to the council tax and business rates for a million residents to parking charges. You know, all of these transactions go through the Oracle IT system. And this IT system hasn't been working?

No, it's been a complete disaster. So it was implemented in April 2022. And it sort of came to light in the subsequent 12 months, really, through various committees that it was posting very large volumes of transaction errors. And that was meaning the council was having to employ hundreds and hundreds of staff and very expensive consultants to address all of these transaction errors and try and fix this broken system. So in terms of the costs in the budget,

it is very much Oracle that we see as what's really pushing Birmingham over the edge. Bear in mind they've had a decade of austerity and very deep cuts as well already. So what do you see as the reason, bringing this back to the women who some have seen be repeatedly blamed, or rather their equal pay case be blamed for the state of the council's finances? What do you think the reason is for not being as clear,

which seems to be what you're alleging here, as clear as possible as to what has caused the issue financially? So, yeah, I don't want to speculate too much, but it's clearly a very political issue in terms of, you know, who's to blame for the and for our analysis and for myself as a resident of Birmingham is that if this had been recognised as an Oracle disaster, I think there would have been much more focus and scrutiny on assessing the financial position and doing a proper value for money assessment. cuts to statutory services, families, children's services, adult social care, where there's been no equalities impact assessment, no value for money assessment. And in many cases, we're seeing cuts that are going to implement increased costs in future. There was an £11 million overspend for temporary accommodation last year. We've got over 2,000 children in care in Birmingham. So I think much more focus needed to be put on getting this budget right. Whereas I think arguably the politics and the equal pay has become quite a distraction from that.

We received a statement from Birmingham City Council in which it said, savings of more than £300 million need to be made over the next two financial years. The in which it said, of support. This time of significant change for Birmingham City Council means we need to fundamentally change how we deliver services, including involving our residents and communities far more in decisions we must take. Let me bring in, as I told you we would, Heather Jameson, editor of the Municipal Journal. Heather, just listening what James had to say there, what would be your response? So I think he is partly right and partly wrong. I think there is a lot to do with the Oracle system. But I think the one thing that I would say is that there is a number of issues going on here for Birmingham. There is this equal pay Oracle, a near 30% cut in their funding since austerity began in 2010, inflation, rising demands across adult social care, children's social care,

and housing and homelessness. And all of these things have all added to the mix. I would also say that the equal pay issue, I appreciate it may feel to women who work in Birmingham that it's blaming them. I don't think the council is taking as much responsibility for that as it needs to. I think the issue that you have is that the equal pay was solved in 2012. It was all resolved. But because there were bin strikes later on in, I think, about 2015, the bin men had a pay rise, which then reintroduced inequality in the pay. This is not a problem that should be blamed on the women.

It should be blamed on the women. It should be blamed on the council actually making a mistake in the way that they handled the bin strikes of 2015. So it's compounded the issue afterwards. It was. So it was on the way to being resolved. And then it was reintroduced again, the inequality in pay. How aware, though, do you think the public are to that myriad of reasoning, but also about this potential IT system situation? Because you're seeing your council tax bill go up by such a significant amount, especially with a lot of people finding things very difficult as it is.

I mean, do you think that, you know, you working in the area that you do and covering local governments and local councils and how it works, do you think people are tuning in more to this? So I think it's starting to get a lot more publicity now, as you'll be aware. But if you look at your news story, the top of your news story this morning. The BBC. Having a diversity officer, which seems to be one of the issues that this government is focusing on, is not going to save Birmingham or cost Birmingham the 300 million pounds it's got to fund over the next two years. The central government is trying to deflect the lack of funding that they have put into local government by raising issues not really worth the amount of money that they're talking about. And I suppose just coming to accountability and, you know, that's what you and I do as journalists. We try to hold those with power, with money to account or with money, I should say, for public good and public use. Again, sort of coming back to a lot of people will think, well, perhaps it's because of the payout that they have to do, not necessarily because

of all those things and this IT system. Is there any way of avoiding this in the future or as we move forward, have you got any glimmers of hope? Because it's not just Birmingham, you've looked across the UK and there are a number of councils in this situation. No, that's right. This year there was 19 councils who were given capitalisation directives. I won't go into the technical details of that for you and bore your readers, but basically allowed to borrow more money in order to prop up their finances. That's more than double than we've ever had before. So, I think at the moment, it's something that the sector is concentrating on very, very carefully. The government has introduced something called Oflog, the office

of local government, which will be looking at the data to try and predict which councils are going to be financially struggling and failing in other ways over the coming years. But I think there is an issue that actually, I think all of us with our personal finances would know that if you had a third of your budget cut, of your household budget cut, you would be struggling, particularly when we're all facing inflation and the difficulties that we have at the moment. And just finally to you, Heather, in terms of the government, the council, excuse me, taking responsibility about those equal pay cases and for those women. Because I can imagine, just put it in human terms, that some of those women today may feel pretty bad,

you know, may feel wrongly so in the sense of because they won their case fair and square and were being underpaid. But they may feel like it's come to their door in some way, especially when this is talked about, not for the first time, but just because this is really focused today with the news of the hiking council tax bills. How do you see perhaps that being addressed? Or how could the council do better in taking responsibility as you described? Well, I think at the moment, the council and really all the senior people at the top, pretty much anyone responsible for that is not left at the council now. So I think at the moment, the council is going through an extremely challenging set of issues, both their budgets and an improvement programme. And I think it's not the first time we've been here with Birmingham, but I think this time round there is government intervention, there is an awful lot of people working to try and improve standards in Birmingham. And I think I'm hopeful that it's Europe's largest local authority.

I think it should be an absolute bastion of good practice. And that's not what it's been in the past and it should be in the future. Heather Jameson, editor of the Municipal Journal. Thank you. Dr. James Brackley, a lecturer in accounting at Sheffield University, talking about those changes announced and what might be coming as well in Birmingham.

Birmingham City Council, the largest local authority in Europe. Labour run, we've heard a bit and was referred to there about what the Chancellor said ahead of the budget tomorrow. And also wanting to bring your attention to the way that perhaps it's been framed around the issue of women bringing that equal pay, those equal pay cases and what's being blamed for the black hole in the council's funding. Interesting message here. There's nothing wrong with Oracle as an IT system. The problem is how it has interfaced with existing council systems. Right, someone who's obviously in the know or a bit in the know there. But if you have anything to say about those potential rises and how you're coping at the moment financially, please do get in touch and the potential for some of those cuts and what

you rely on councils for and also how you think perhaps the perception of women in light of this and where blame is being laid will be affected so it's always interesting to hear your views do you get in touch but if I say the name Yates to you who springs to mind perhaps the poet WB Yates or the painter Jack Butler Yates but those talented brothers also had two industrious and inspiring sisters. Elizabeth Yeats, also known as Lolly, was a printer and a teacher. Susan Yeats, known as Lily, was an embroiderer. Together, they founded a women-only arts and crafts guild to promote women's economic and cultural independence. They were the backbone of the Irish cultural and literary revival

of the 1920s, publishing over 70 books, and their embroidered pieces were commissioned by the Vatican, no less. But the legacy has been overshadowed, and their work by their brothers. A new documentary called Lily and Lolly, the Forgotten Yates Sisters, is out on 8th March, of course, Independent Women's Day, International Women's Day rather.

It's International Women's Day here every day on Women's Hour, I should say, on Sky Arts. And that documentary is hoping to change that, fronted by the Irish singer, songwriter and poet, Imelda May, who joins me now. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. How did you come to these sisters then?

I was doing a gig in Three Arena in Dublin and I was wanting to project names of inspiring women behind me while I was singing this particular song all about strength and stoicism. And I started investigating all the different people that I loved and should put up there. And as I was looking through, I came upon the Yates sisters and I had no idea, I'd never heard of them. And I'm a WB Yates fan and a Jack Yates fan since I was a teenager. And I thought, this is crazy.

I'd seen their portraits painted by their father, but I didn't know anything about them. And the more I researched, the more I was gobsmacked and I kind of told everybody about them constantly my cousins and my friends and sisters all got there was only two books I could find about them small snippets of information around and I just sent them to everybody all the time

and then I met a wonderful woman called Maggie Branagh that I myself and herself did a wonderful documentary for Sky Arts called Voices of Ireland I'm saying it's wonderful because we were delighted with it and then she said what do you want to work on next and

I said I totally know and she'd heard me going on about them and said let's do this we really need to tell their story. And the story is a remarkable one, isn't it? I mean, I've just I also have now educated myself and let's share it with our listeners, because the route at that time for these women would have been to marry, have children, go down that. But they go down a completely different route. How did they come to their arts and crafts work well um they were they thought they were going to they were middle class you know upper to middle class women they their um their their mother was from a really uh well-off family in sligo um but their father who was going to be a was supposed to be a barrister decided one day do you know what i'm not going to be a barrister, decided one day, do you know what, I'm not going to be a barrister, I'm going to be an artist.

And then off he went. And the mother got ill. She had a stroke really early and was very ill for a long time. And their brothers went off and did their things. Now, Susan had gone off to study embroidery with William Morris. And Elizabeth was a brilliant artist and she was an art teacher. But when this happened, there were no funds coming into the house. There was nothing.

And they were still trying to keep up with the family. And certainly the father was trying to keep up the appearance of having something and being somebody. At one point, he moved them to London. They moved back and forth and they even had a maid. And the maid documented that when she opened the cupboards, there was no food inside. They had nothing. So Susan and Elizabeth basically had to fund the family and roll their sleeves up, as women often do, and decided to make this work. But what I love about them is they didn't just, you know,

go out and work and make money for the family. They were true artists and they used their, everything they did was very, very thoughtful and they consciously did everything. They thought about everything the way they employed only women.

At that time, it was really, women weren't allowed to be printers. So they started up an embroidery company. They worked, like I said, with William Morris. Then they were involved in the Celtic Revival. They worked with Evelyn Gleeson. So they were embroiderers. They started up a publishing company. They were printers.

They employed only women, which you could have been arrested for at that time. You certainly would have been brought to court for employing one woman, and they employed only women. They employed young women, older women, widows, and they really invested in the education of the women and in their lives after they left working for them. So they were totally invested in the women that were there

and improved their lives. And were they a success with these endeavours? Massively, yes. They were massively successful. But at one point they almost went bankrupt because with the books, they decided to make these books beautiful, not just to make money.

They were trying to source local linens, things that we look to do now, they were doing then, local paper, hand binding. And then they took off, they got... Let me explain to you. With printing at that time, it was only men that were employed in printing and they had to serve for seven years

and they were not allowed to get married or to drink. It was like a vocation for seven years. Elizabeth decided they were going to print. She went and studied printing for four weeks, bought a printing press and then became the teacher. And that's how they began. And it was pretty heavy labour, wasn't it? Very heavy labour. I believe

you do for the programme. I could hardly lift them up and they're all led and everything was hand done. All the press. All the press and these women were like flinging them around and the other thing that they did, they could have signed you know, well

known, they could have signed well known writers that were already published and that would have guaranteed them success within publishing but they decided they were only going to sign or mostly going to sign new and upcoming writers

so they signed J.M. Singh, Patrick Kavanagh and loads of other people my mind's gone blank But in terms of just writers and how they were then and loads of other people, my mind's gone blank. But in terms of just writers and how they were then perceived, because that's what's fascinating, there was a pretty horrible reference to them by James Joyce, wasn't there? A reference to them as the Weird Sisters, is that right?

Yes, and they were kind of seen as irritating, you know, and they were talked about in the difficult, certainly Elizabeth was known as the difficult sister. And she was the more business headed of the two. So she was getting things done. And from all the letters that I've read of her, she wasn't difficult at all. She was just, as Sinead O'Connor said, I'm not bossy, I'm the boss.

And people didn't like that. But she was really pushing ahead. Because we should also say that they did never marry. They lived, they worked together, they carried on with their work. They never married. The father went off, John went off to America to paint and he said, could you send me some money? And they sent him money for 11 years. They funded him. So they funded their dad,

who wanted to be an artist, and went off to do that, leaving the law. And the relationship with the brothers, the much more famous brothers that we know the name for? Jack and them, they got along. And Jack did some artwork, he painted and did some beautiful drawings for them that they then turned into

embroidery, so they worked together as a family on that, because they were artists too but William, he I mean, it was a it was a fractured relationship as siblings often have, you know, he was back and forth but he had to come in and sign

things and elizabeth had to she was trying to get him to sign things over to her that she would also be able to to run the company without his signature basically well it's fascinating thank you so much for telling us what you've learned i talked really fast because this is there's so much about them and we tried to squeeze it into one hour of a programme. But there's way, way, way much more. Well, I squeeze everything into one hour of a programme every day and multiple things. I fell in love with them. I can hear that.

They're wonderful women. We owe them a lot. So thank you for giving me the time. No, no. And it sounds very beautiful as well, especially being commissioned by all sorts, not least the Vatican, with their creations and having that focus on beauty and the aesthetic. They were so talented. It's incredible. Their talent and their vision was amazing. I'm going to get into trouble

if I don't say the name of the programme again because people always go, hang on, I missed it at the beginning. So it's Lily and Lolly, the Forgotten Yates Sisters on Sky Arts from the 8th of March, presented created by Imelda May thank you very much for talking to us. Thank you so much

and I'm sure we'll get some response to that and I'm sure we'll also have some people who say I do know about them but now I want other people to know about them as well. Very knowledgeable listener base, spread the word indeed well last week on the programme I introduced a new Woman's Hour series about porn and how it's influencing real sex and a sense of ourselves. And today we're going to hear from Sam, not her real name, who's in her late 40s. Her awareness of porn imagery

goes back a long way and has had a profound impact on her self-image and sex life. Sam is a recovering sex and love addict herself. The relationship counselling service Relate defines this as any sexual activity that feels, quote, out of control. But experts also agree that simply having lots of sex doesn't necessarily point to a problem. One of Sam's relationships was with a man she thinks was addicted to pornography. And I should say, in what you're about to hear, she uses explicit terms from porn to tell her story. Our reporter, Enna Miller, asks Sam about when she first saw pornography. I would have been four years old.

We lived in tenement flats. And I remember like going out into the back garden and there was like an empty field and I remember finding pornography. I didn't know it was pornography and I can still see the woman's kind of like 1970s hair, splayed legs and just being really confused by it. Four is very young, so then when did you experience it again? Probably teenage years, aware that male friends had pornography magazines. Maybe always a little bit fascinated in shops and things, and like page three, you know, those kind of Sam Fox, beautiful, pale, blonde women. And also, I don't know if you remember, those tenants, lager cans with the women, blonde, beautiful.

And kind of like knowing that I was like a brunette, you know, like I didn't quite fit with who I was as a young teenage woman. So I think for me me there was always this maybe not being enough and pornography was like oh this is what I should be and this is what men like I looked much younger than I was so I would have been what 25 but I want to look at pictures now there was something that was quite childlike about me so I definitely had a couple of partners that were very into the brand of porn that would be like Sweet Sixteen. And I would have fitted like, you know, quite small chest.

Like I didn't have boobs really until I had babies. And I think I knew that was my category. Definitely schoolgirl, kind of like fantasies or younger type of porn-inspired role play. You seemed very comfortable with that. Yeah, I kind of accepted that I would never be enough, so I was always happy to kind of use porn as a reference of, like, this is the benchmark of what you have to be to be, like, a sweet 16.

When the relationship actually ended, it ended because I borrowed a laptop from him and on the laptop he had what would be described now as like MILF porn so it was an older, it was a woman being ejaculated on I remember she was very fat and I just remember like being really confused because I was like, that's what he likes looking at? Is it not okay to like two different things? I was confused. And I think you do have quite linear thinking at that age.

Whereas now, as you get older, you can fully see the plethora of like, ooh, I love, you know, all different colours of skin. I love all body shapes. Do you know what I mean? I see Eros in everything. I feel you're a bit of a rebel. And I've only known you ten minutes. I'm no longer schoolgirl. Now I'm in the MILF category. And again, that's like so boring. When you were the people pleaser,

was there times you were enjoying yourself? There's definitely been times in my life where I've allowed pornography to be in the bedroom VHS tapes of you know lesbian porn or whatever it was I think there was one bondage one that's coming into my head women being hung up and kind of whipped and my partners watching the VHS and using me as a body so not engaging with me at all so when you were in that moment you're telling me that he's watching a VHS and then you are there what are you doing I mean there's a lot of times when you're like self-pleasuring or you're doing stuff for yourself because there's this disconnect it's like a virtual menage a trois when you've got pornography

in the room so I think there's a difference from the porn that I experienced in my 20s which was probably just kind of quite pretty quite glamorous you know it was much more about like lipstick and high heels and pornography in my 20s was very different to the pornographies that was introduced to me in my 40s which was definitely much more hardcore what people do that that's weird oh my god like it's not even enough to be penetrated by one penis it has to be two. Did pornography ever enter your life without having somebody there as in just for your own pleasure? Where I would enjoy pornography is you know because I like looking at beautiful women like as a young woman there was a fascination with those magazines and what was in them and

that was maybe a little bit tantalising but I certainly never bought a porn magazine do you know I mean that would have been bizarre 30s maybe occasionally but not so much because I was like in the world of motherhood and like having babies so no in my 40s reintroduced to pornography through another person although I have watched content that was sent to me. Over the past couple of years I have explored like online dating apps but there is one particular app and I didn't realise it's got this function and it opens up into video mode. You open them up and it's just somebody masturbating. I have had one moment of self-pleasuring where this really cute guy in America who was in an office must have been what I don't know if it was the beginning of his shift or the end well like do you know I

mean it's 10 o'clock half 10 my time he was really cute and he asked really nicely he was like oh yeah do you do you want to have some fun and that's what we did he asked permission before he showed his penis and things and you know he asked me what I was into and what I wanted to be called or what the kind of narrative was so actually setting the scene up in that space where it's real time and I'm consenting as an adult and so is he I'm down with that you know I mean that for me is more fair trade ethical we both gave each other a virtual helping hand in a sense. I want to dance. I want to shag. I've been quite interested in younger men. I've refused to get into sexting or texting. That's something that I don't do anymore. I have to be careful because as a love and sex addict, for me, actually what I should be striving for is actually true connection and deep

connection but you enjoyed yourself pornography is a it's a beast isn't it it just needs a constant stream of new things weird things nothing sacred everything can be fetishized and wanked on we can mix a bit of this with that even with my own experience of like dating a porn addict it starts off quite vanilla and then by the end of it it's just so extreme. So you dated one how did it start? So he would have been my teenage love from when I was 13 he would have been 19 yeah when I was 13, he would have been 19. Yeah, when I was 16, I actually lost my virginity with him. He got in touch. My dad had passed and I remember at the time just being like, really like, my head was really messed up.

So he phoned up just to, you know, say sorry. He knew how I felt, to connect. And then it really quickly turned into this strange conversation of like he asked me was I having sex was that in the first conversation yeah he over shared with me about his wife intimately they weren't having sex and then he kind of playfully was like oh everybody needs to have sex everybody needs to have sex and I kind of just laughed and then for all of the stuff that was happening I definitely there's something for me now that I know when grief happens to me I can sexualize it in weird ways

as a coping mechanism because I am like you know I'm a bit of an addict so even like when my granddad died I found myself in a strip club after the funeral with five blokes I didn't know. The first time I put WhatsApp on my phone was at his suggestion. Then it was like a barrage of messages and things. Like what? Like love bombing of like, oh, you're beautiful, you're wonderful, you're this, you know. And then, yeah, he just wanted pictures. At some point, did it become exciting? It was intense.

And even when I was looking through some of the messages that I've kept, I was just aware of, like, oh, God, we were both in, like, fantasy role play. Can we have a look? Streams and streams. I'm reading this over your shoulder. Is this OK? That's OK. This one you're about to read me, I'm reading this over your shoulder is this okay? that's okay this one you're about to read me

this is at 19 minutes past 3 at night and then it goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth it's like every second you're texting through the night 1am, 2am, 3am

4am at 5am you tell him horny and he goes yummy. Oh, you send an attachment at 7am. Do you want to say what you said? I'm a fan of boosh. And then? Yummy, he says that. And I say no, too hairy.

I know, but I'm just trying to see when you stop talking it was continual he was into the idea of watching me have sex with other people will you come too what will you wear he was always really into like I'm your slut what do you want me to wear please can I come I've been edging for longer than normal. What's edging? Edging is like you're waiting to get permission from your partner to come. A lot of porn addicts maybe do it because it's just about taking longer and then it feels better. So sometimes with this person, he could be edging for days and it would be a constant flow of pictures, images. These are pictures that we started using to send to various apps and

online profiles to start doing things together as a couple. It was very much like on his terms and I knew my place. I was just there for his occasional fun and it was going to involve other people. And part of you was up for it? Oh yeah but I always knew it was going to involve other people. And part of you was up for it? Oh, yeah, but I always knew it was going to be enticing. As a codependent woman with a man who's a porn addict, I certainly knew how to manipulate and titillate, but all of it was quite sad. Like, he decided that he would take over, like I was saying,

almost like my PA, he would do all of that side of it, which actually I enjoyed because, almost like my PA, he would do all of that side of it, which actually I enjoyed because, you know, I wasn't particularly fussed about meeting people, but for him it was like there was definite fantasies that he wanted me and him to play around with and try things out. But I had real feelings for him. You know know I remember like meeting him in this hotel and I remember feeling really beautiful and sexy oh he basically just wanted to come in my face he wanted to have sex with me and then he was like working and I remember having this real disconnect from like the fantasy of what I thought it would be and the reality was like really quite uncomfortable like it was just a crazy

relationship like crazy in terms of what I would do the lengths of what you would do and then when you get your forties like if it hasn't been successful, you kind of do this thing where you go through all your past relationships and you're like, oh god, maybe that one would have worked, maybe that one would have worked and where I think I was really accepting with this relationship and this person was like, you know, I see porn addiction just in the way as I see alcoholism, You know, as a good codependent woman, there I was supporting all of the needs of this porn-addicted man. I was willing to go above and beyond and be like,

woo, I'm fabulous, I'm this, I'm that. Maybe as I get older, I'm much more comfortable with my sexuality and how flamboyant that can be or how I like to express it. I need to look after myself and my own needs. When we get told as women we're meant to stop feeling things once we get to a certain age. I think like I'm still going to be 90 and I'll still feel juicy and I'll still want to be like doing whatever I'm doing because I think that's part of who I am as a creative woman. You know it's not going away even through all this perimenopausal stuff. When I speak to

older women, they kind of laugh and they're like, no, it's, you know, I think you're taught this idea that it's meant to end or it is going to end. But actually, I think I'm only just beginning. Thank you very much to Sam there, not her real name. And Anna Miller was the reporter there. So far in our new porn series, we have spoken to women, but obviously it's a conversation that men need to be involved with too. So we should say male listeners have been in touch. One email saying, don't care for porn myself, but my partner used to say it warmed her up,

that she became less inhibited and it helped her have an orgasm. Another reads, I gave up porn when I realised I was actively seeking out weirder and even borderline nasty. The divide between naughty and nasty is quite narrow. We would like to speak to men of different ages, backgrounds and find out how porn has shaped your sex lives and relationships. A bit of an idea of some of the messages there. Please do keep getting in touch. We do want men to join the conversation. It's not about judgment. Do share your thoughts and experiences. The same numbers I gave before, but just to share again, the number is 84844 for texts on social media at BBC Women's Hour

or email us through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message on 03700 100 444. And women, keep getting in touch too. I hope I don't need to say that, but just in case. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. I do. Now, two years after the US Supreme Court overturned the constitutional right to abortion, lawmakers in France yesterday made history by enshrining this right into their country's constitution,

a global first. Parliamentarians voted to revise the country's 1958 constitution to enshrine women's guaranteed freedom to abort. The overwhelming 780 to 72 vote saw a standing ovation in Parliament in Versailles where the result was announced. Following the vote, the Eiffel Tower in Paris was lit up in celebration with the message, my body, my choice. Anti-abortion groups have strongly criticised the change, as has the Vatican. Well on the line, Stephanie Hennet-Voches is a professor of public law at the Paris Nantes University and a French constitutional expert. Stephanie, I've tried to paint a picture. Welcome to Woman's Hour of what happened. Tell us a bit more. Hi. Yeah, well, it's the completion of an 18-month process. I think that there had been some conversation about enshrining abortion

in the Constitution before. But of course, the Dobbs decision, as you recalled, really sparked this movement. And it's been a very interesting 18 months. It started out in a much more robust language than what we actually have put in the Constitution by the vote yesterday. Initially, the National Assembly voted a language that really spoke of a right and located this new right to an effective right to abortion in the Constitution independently. Whereas what has been passed yesterday is slightly different. It speaks of a guaranteed liberty, guaranteed freedom, as you said. And also, it's not a freestanding article in the Constitution. It's just listed among the

competences of the Parliament. So what this means is that it's a right, but it's indirectly a right. It's first and foremost defined as a domain of legislative competence. And it's basically the constitution telling the lawmakers, the parliament as the author of legislation, that if and when they regulate abortion, they have to do so in one particular direction. And that direction is that they need to protect the guaranteed freedom to have an abortion. And I suppose in terms of what, because it sounds like, you correct me if I'm wrong, that not necessarily anything changes day to day in women's lives. But is it the symbolism of that? I mean, there are legal ramifications of a constitutional change.

I'm not saying there aren't. But what do you think the signal it sends? Right. No, you're absolutely right. It doesn't change anything in either the access of women to abortion locally as of today, or it doesn't even change the rules as they exist. For example, abortion on demand is legal up to the 14th week, and that is not changing just because of the constitutional amendment. The symbolism is important, of course, because this would be, or this this is the first constitutional text to explicitly refer to abortion as a guaranteed right. So that, of course, means something for

women's groups and activists worldwide. And it also means more than that. I mean, it's not just the symbolism of it, but the idea is also that the French constitution makers really wanted to prevent any kind of future regression in the legislation. So the idea really is that if the political feeling around abortion and reproductive rights was to change in the future in France, this constitutional amendment would legitimize the intervention of the constitutional court to strike down any legislation that would go too far in restricting abortion rights as we know them today, because it could be read as a violation of this newly guaranteed, constitutionally guaranteed freedom. Not everyone is happy with this, although it does seem that the majority is, but not everyone is. No, not everyone is. But as you said, I mean, there's a wide support that the polling that's been going on over the past year and a half has consistently indicated anything between 75 and 85 percent of the people in

support of the constitutionalization of abortion rights. As you said, there's been a big celebration in the streets of Paris yesterday. I think it's important to understand that in France, I mean, although, of course, there are opponents to abortion and there were opponents to this constitutional amendments, it is an issue that is much less polarized than in many other countries. There has been a sort of incremental progressive equilibrium found throughout 50 years of repeated legislative interventions since the historical decriminalization in 1975. And I think the issue is much less polarized. And it was indeed very striking yesterday to hear the language that was employed pretty much across the spectrum, the political spectrum in the joint session of people celebrating feminist slogans,

like your body, your choice, was actually spoken by the prime minister himself. Yes, and that was very striking, and as well what was going on at the Eiffel Tower, as I mentioned. It'll be fascinating to see if the success of this French campaign will strengthen other abortion rights movements across the globe, how that impact may happen. We'll watch this space.

Perhaps you'll come back to tell us should things change. Stephanie, Hennet, Vosges, thank you very much for your analysis and putting it into greater context for you. The singer and songwriter Sarah-Jane Morris, who's just walked into the studio and is lip syncing along to that, of course, performing with groups from 1980s pop synth

that the Communards too, I groups from 1980s pop synth that, the Communards too, I should say, a hugely varied career, the Soweto Voice Choir and her work crosses genres, rock to soul to African blues, classical orchestras, jazz big bands, you name it. And now a new album she's published herself, The Sisterhood, which celebrates 10 women that blaze their own musical trails.

We'll get into some of them. Good morning. Good morning. What a pleasure to have of them. Good morning. Good morning. What a pleasure to have you here. Thank you. Lovely to meet you at last. And to hear your voice, your speaking voice, as well as what you do when you sing. The Sisterhood, you're speaking to a woman's hour. Tell us more. So the Sisterhood started in the second lockdown. I'm going to be like a

Meldomain talk very quickly because there's so much to say. You don't have to. No, because there's so much to say. But get some of it out. So I moved to St. Leonard's-on-Sea just before the lockdown. And first lockdown, walked and walked and walked, destroyed my knees, needed a new leg, knee, anyway. And then in the second lockdown, I thought, I'd like to find out about all those female singer-songwriters that paved the way for someone like me. And I made a list of 50.

And then when I realised it could be an album, I took it down to 10. We have extended it to 12 actually since, but on the album, it's 10. And I did a lot of research. And with my husband, we read to each other. We don't have a television. So we sit across from each other and read to each other. And I bought autobiographies and biographies of all of these singers that I'd chosen. And we made notes. And between us, we wrote their life story very respectfully. And then Tony Remy, who's my right hand, left hand man and my co-writer for many years, who was Annie Lennox's guitarist for 12 years. He came down when we had free movement. And we both together in my front room, decided to write each song in the musical genre of the singer that I'd written about, which stretched us.

It called on everything we had ever learned in our long careers. And it did take us to South Africa because one of the singers I wrote about who was very important in my education was Miriam McCaber. And I did a GoFundMe where people pre-ordered the CD, and that paid for myself and Tony and my brother Rod Morris, who's a filmmaker, to go to Johannesburg. And we stayed there with someone who had been a boyfriend of mine in the 80s, and he had, with Jerry Damers, set up Artists Against Apartheid. He was the son of Oliver Tambo, who was the head of the ANC. So he allowed us to come and stay with him.

In fact, we landed in Tambo Airport, named after his father, and stayed with the Tambos. And recorded with the Soweto Gospel Choir on the day that Miriam McCabe would have turned 90, had she lived. And I mean, that's one story and we could keep going with that. But there are many other women that you've been looking into, as you say. And on the album, you paid tribute to Janis Joplin, Aretha Franklin, Nina Simone, Billie Holiday, Joni Mitchell,

a great list. And today you're going to perform a song inspired by Ricky Lee Jones. Can you tell us a bit about her? Yes, well, she was a gift songwriter. Her grandfather was a one-legged tap dancer in vaudeville called Peg Leg Jones. Wow.

Gift. And she was hitching around America at age 12. She was for one year before either of them broke the partner of Tom Waits. They both influenced each other. But she talked in her book about how she was influenced musically by Van Morrison. So when we were writing her lyric, we kind of leaned towards that. Because of course, he did the bright side of the road, we call her song the jazz side of the road. But it's all about her incredible journey in her song. And the song itself, what are you trying to get across?

How are you trying to help people understand her, do you think, through this? It's always nice if people are about to hear something, if they can be thinking what you're trying to do. Well, I think I'm celebrating how individual they all are and how brave most of them were. You know, I mean, in the case of Billie Holiday, she continually sung the song Strange Fruit, even though the FBI tried to destroy her career again and again and again.

They would undercover sell her heroin and then lock her away for the same thing. And her bravery to sing that song, that's what our song's about. It's called junk in my trunk but with um with ricky she actually wrote to me because it was the first single and she wrote to me and and i i haven't got it here so i can't actually quote her but it was as good as saying thank you for telling my truth i cried well that's that's an endorsement isn't it when you're when you're looking to try and see perhaps how you can connect. Well, I'm going to let you go over to the microphone

because we are going to hear Sarah-Jane Morris now performing a song inspired by Ricky Lee Jones, Jazz Side of the Road, accompanied by Tim Cansfield and, as you're hearing, Tony Remy on acoustic guitars. I'll let you take it away. Sarah-Jane Morris, accompanied by Tim Cansfield and, as you're hearing, Tony Remy on acoustic guitars. I'll let you take it away. Sarah-Jone Morris, accompanied by Tim Cansfield and Tony Remy on acoustic guitars with Jazz Side of the Road,

a song inspired by Ricky Lee Jones. And I should say Sarah-Jone singing again with Tim and Tony on those guitars will be performing at the Tongue Auditorium in Liverpool on Friday and at the Alexandra Palace Theatre London on Saturday. And the album bringing those ideas together is called The Sisterhood, especially ahead of many celebrations that will be coming for women with International Women's Day with us on Friday. But as I've already said, it's every day here on Woman's Hour. So I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm David Yelland. And I'm Simon Lewis. We're the hosts of Radio 4's When It Hits The Fan, the podcast which looks at how big names and big companies manage their PR. But what about your own personal PR? How do you better manage your own reputation at work? We're here to help. With a series of special bonus episodes, we'll bring a little wisdom and share some tips to hopefully make you better at that job. Quick Wins is a series of short and snappy episodes with lots of advice aimed at improving your working life. If that sounds useful, then

please listen and subscribe on BBC Sounds. Just search for When It Hits The Fan. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now.