Woman's Hour - Historical Records, Kasi Lemmons, Sarah Hall

Episode Date: November 26, 2019

The Irish government is proposing that important documents about industrial schools should be sealed for 75 years. But some women who stayed in them, like Rosemary, pictured here when she was a baby, say they don't want the files and testimonies to be kept secret. They say they're crucial, historical documents. The government disagrees, believing it's about confidentiality and preservation. We hear from Rosemary and Elizabeth, women in their 60s and 70s, who describe what it was like living in these places.There's a new film out called Harriet. It's based on the story of Harriet Tubman who escaped slavery in the States in 1849. She became a leading abolitionist. As a ‘conductor’ she enabled hundreds of enslaved people to gain their freedom along the route of the Underground Railroad. The film stars the British actress, Cynthia Erivo. Jane speaks to Kasi Lemmons, the film’s director.Gentleman Jack was on BBC One earlier this year, and ever since visitors have flocked to Shibden Hall. They've also traveled to Halifax and York to see where Anne Lister lived and worked. Many are lesbians who've been inspired by her story. As hundreds sign up to attend the Anne Lister Festival next year, we hear why Shibden has become an important trip for gay women and the impact it’s had on local tourism.A mythic bird-woman stalks abusers. An old lady calmly switches off her own heart. And a grieving daughter breast-feeds in a car-park as her mother’s grave is dug. Sarah Hall’s unsettling new collection of short stories explores female rage and whether we're ever really able to change.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Yes, good morning. And on the programme today, amongst other things, we're talking about why lesbians are flocking to Halifax. That's a bit later Timing's everything in show business I didn't quite get that right But hey, it's good to hear them Also today, the director of the new film about the life of Harriet Tubman, Casey Lemons, is on the programme today. That's really interesting. The film is great. If you haven't heard of it, it's all about the life of Harriet Tubmanifting short stories, and she'll talk to us on Woman's Hour today. Now, on the programme over the years, we have reported a lot, actually, on Ireland's Magdalene laundries and on mother and baby homes.

They were part of a network of so-called industrial schools, now notorious, unfortunately, for cruel treatment and harsh conditions. The Irish government did run a compensation scheme for victims that has now closed, but the controversy is not over. The argument has moved on to what will happen to the millions of documents of evidence collected by government inquiries. Should it all be destroyed or sealed for 75 years? Well, today an Irish government committee will hear evidence

from survivors, from lawyers and historians. And we can hear from two survivors this morning. Rosemary Adassa is 63 and from the Association of Mixed Race Ireland. Rosemary, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Now, I know you have a story to tell and we are going to hear some of it on the programme today because I appreciate it's not easy to talk about this stuff. Elizabeth Coppins is also with us in our studio in Cambridge, also a survivor. She is 70. And Elizabeth, you were born in a mother and baby home yourself. No, I was born in a county home,

which was originally a workhouse and the Irish government owned them. And they're making more fuss about the mother and baby homes and they're ignoring the county homes because they own them. And they're making more fuss about the mother and baby homes and they're ignoring the county homes because they own them and the Catholic Church own the mother and baby homes. Right, and Rosemary, you're nodding along to that. I am, yes.

County homes is a much neglected area for investigation and the county homes are actually considered worse than mother and baby homes. Right, OK, well that's something hopefully we'll have time to explore this morning on the programme. Dr Sarah-Anne Buckley is also with us she's in our Dublin studio she's a lecturer in history in Galway and Sarah-Anne you're giving evidence to that committee this morning so tell us exactly what is happening today. Hi Jane well today what we're going to do is we're going to try and address the reasons why we believe that this bill should not be passed.

So as a historian, I would argue that we need more openness, not less, when it comes to this history. And I think the point that Elizabeth just made about the county homes is really relevant. So Ireland had what has been known or was called by James Smith an architecture of containment. And this involved a number of different types of institutions. So today we're mostly discussing the industrial schools and reformatory schools because they're the institutions that this bill directly refers to. Right. And this bill, can I interrupt, is the retention of records bill. Now, just explain to the British audience what exactly that bill intends.

So they may be aware or people may be aware we had ayear-long committee, the Committee to Investigate Child Abuse, which published its report in 2009. And it spoke to 718 Confidential Committee witnesses, and it also had a redress scheme where thousands of people gave evidence. Now, the Department of Education are arguing that the survivors were told it was confidential. Therefore, they need to seal the records. Whereas we're arguing that there are ways that you can make them available. I'm a historian, so we have best practice when it comes to archives and as do many people in the UK.

So 20 or 30 years is normally the time limit. This is at least 75 years, which is three generations. As a historian, that is very problematic if we want to know about how women and children were treated in the 20th century in Ireland. Well, to make sure it never happens again,

of course, would be your overriding concern. But the government do say they have to try, I've got a statement from them here, to reach a balance between the original commitment to confidentiality and protecting the wishes and rights of survivors and their families with the wider public interest of retaining records for posterity. Now on the face of it that doesn't seem unreasonable. Well what I would argue is that even if initially the intention was to keep these records closed. Ireland has changed a lot in the last 10 years. Survivors have become more vocal and what they deserve is to be asked again,

just very simply, do they want access to their own records? Do they want those records to be available with redaction? This should be coming from survivors and we should be supporting them. And just to say that in Canada and in Australia, they have followed a more liberal policy in this regard. And even presently in England, in regards to commissions that are ongoing there, There is a far less restrictive regime. So our argument is international best practice, talk to survivors, listen to survivors, like Elizabeth, like Rosemary.

They are the ones who should be supported in this regard. Well, you mentioned there that survivors have become more vocal. I guess, Rosemary, you're in that category, aren't you? You were telling me earlier, you've only really just begun to own all this. I have. It's only been in the last maybe six years, six, seven years that I've really begun to investigate my past, investigate the trauma that I and at least 50,000 other women and children endured in institutions. I spent almost 18 years amongst five different institutions, starting off in a mother and baby home in Belfast,

winding up in a mother and baby home because I got up the duff, as they say, and my son was illegally adopted. And in between, I endured tremendous, I could only use the word torture, racism. And it's in the last five years that I have created the Association of Mixed Race Irish to highlight the specific historic racism of my community in these industrial schools.

You feel, I think, that as somebody of mixed race, your dad is from Ghana, you've only also very recently come to that awareness as well, that you were very much at the bottom of the heap? Oh, totally. I mean, all of us, and I'm sure Liz would agree, regardless of where we were, it was, these institutions were maintained

along workhouse environments, indenture, scrubbing floors, but there were three categories that I maintain were probably at the bottom of the heap because every institution is a pecking order and I would say it was the traveller community, the disabled and the mixed race community

within these institutions. And our particular history has never been acknowledged by the Irish state and the abuses that we suffered have never been acknowledged, which is why we're going to the UN Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination next Monday to tell our story because Official Ireland refuses to acknowledge the historic racism of my community Jane and this has been it's a long road for you to have traveled isn't it um and you've had some tough times oh yeah I I would say yeah I left Ireland actually very damaged I left Ireland very damaged because um I think all of us were very damaged by these institutions. And, you know, the thing about this retention of records bill is that when you grow up with no family, Jane,

you've got nothing. You're reliant on charity. The only thing that's yours is your history. It's your story. And you want to bequeath that to your family. This retention of records bill is a really cynical attempt to shut us up. It is about silencing the voices of survivors. Can I just bring Elizabeth in? Is that how you feel too, Elizabeth?

Yes, everything Rosemary said I would agree with. I believe the Irish government have got something, hide and they don't want the Irish public to and as I've already mentioned, they do say this is about reaching that balance between the original commitment to confidentiality and protecting your rights as a survivor. Right. I'd like to answer to that, please, Jane, if I could. Of course. First of all, I've dealt with the Irish government. You can't trust them. They're always reneging on their word to us survivors. You cannot trust them. Secondly, they reneging on their word to us survivors. You cannot trust them. Secondly, they're talking about

confidentiality. Well, I personally went to the investigative redress board. You had a choice of going to the confidential one or the investigative one. I went to the investigative one. Never once

was I told that my records would be kept confidential. And you don't want them to be? No, I certainly don't want. And I'm sure even some of those who went to the confidential committee, they now, down the line, when they've got over the serious impact and the enormity of what was happening to us, the shock of it all. I have spoken to them and a lot of them I do know

they would like theirs made public as well. It's not our shame, it's the Irish government's shame and the quicker the Irish government and the Catholic Church, both of them wake up to the abuses they've inflicted on all of us collectively and in particular innocent children, boys and girls who grew up to the abuses they've inflicted on all of us collectively. And in particular, innocent children, boys and girls,

who grew up to be very angry and bitter and not very trusting. Could you expect us? And they're still trying to pull the wool over your eyes, Jane, with the statement they've put out. You just cannot trust the Irish government. They have never been for the survivors of institutional abuse. Never. Again, I don't want to be in a position of frankly defending any government,

but I do think that many outside observers like myself might have thought that at least this was beginning your suffering, and I don't doubt it, by the way, and I cannot begin to imagine it, that at least your suffering, yours, Rosemary's, and yours, Elizabeth, has begun to be acknowledged at least. Is that true, Rosemary? No, I mean, this 75 years, it's just a way, it's not even reasonable. Our suffering has, we were stigmatized. You were put into these institutions and along with that incarceration,

we refer to ourselves as inmates, along with that incarceration, Jane, was a stigma. There was a stigma attached to being in one of these institutions. When you left these institutions, you carried that stigma with you for the rest of your lives. I went to the redress board. At no point was I ever told that my information would remain confidential. And it's so important, Jane, that because this is not about the likes of Liz and I,

this is about the Irish people themselves, looking at how these institutions were created and maintained by not just the state, not just the Catholic Church, but by medicine, social worker, the courts, the police and society. That's why it's important that we don't wait until 2094 when we're all dead and forgotten. Yeah. Well, that's the danger, all dead and forgotten history has a habit of repeating itself and we have to learn from history and you don't want that to happen you don't want that to happen no we were talking earlier Rosemary and you mentioned

Ireland and you referred to it as home and I was surprised by that because you've made your life in Britain now and I know you've made a good life in difficult circumstances I do I mean I came to Britain and it was the great escape for me, quite honestly. It was the great escape because I was anonymous.

I wasn't experiencing racism. I could build a life and Britain's been very good for me. But I'm an Irish woman. I am an Irish woman. And my daughter used to say to me, you know what, Mum, your trouble is that you're an Irish woman, but you don't know you're one. Because I never owned up to the fact that I was Irish. But I love Ireland. Ireland will always be my home, regardless of its history.

Elizabeth, how do you see Ireland? At first, I was very, very bitter about Ireland. And like Rosemary, there comes a turning point in your life. I think it's when you've got children or something. I don't know. You want to find out your heritage, your identity. And do I see it as my home? Well, I'd like to think I'm an Irish citizen but I have to

remember the better breaks I got in this country but I would never have got them as an ex- county home, an ex-industrial school, an ex-Magdalene woman I would never have got that in Ireland

they would, as Rosemary has pointed out, we were stigmatised. We were just outcasts, really, of society. And we still are up to a point. Yes, the Irish government gave us an apology, but not once were the violation of my human rights mentioned when I was in the Magdalene laundries. And that goes for people whose children were taken from them as well.

Thank you both very much for talking to us. I really appreciate it. Brief word from you, Sarah-Anne. Is it really that simple, a choice between destroying all these records or keeping them sealed for 75 years, as Rosemary says, until we're all dead and gone in 2094? No, not at all. It's far more complicated.

I thought it might be. There's a number of options. Go on. Well, there's a number of options that we can choose here. Archivists know how to use redaction, anonymised records. We just need more resources. And that is a big question here. It will cost more not to seal them. So this is also a cost

issue and I'm arguing as a historian that this is so important. The Minister for Education recently reinstated history as a core subject in the junior cert and he said that he wants us to know about Ireland's dark history. How can we fully understand this if I, as a researcher, cannot get access not only to more contentious files, but to administrative files? And also survivors, they should have their own personal file. This is so important. We can't move forward. There will be no historical justice if we do not move forward as a society and support survivors today. So there is not only two options.

No, really interesting. Thank you very much. And well, I'm sure you'll be a formidable contributor to that committee meeting today in Dublin. Thank you, Dr. Sarah-Anne Buckley, who is a lecturer in history in Galway. Lovely to meet you, Rosemary, and the very best of luck at the UN.

You're going there on Monday. We're going next Monday. Best of luck. And Elizabeth, thank you very much. I know you had a dicey journey into our Cambridge studio, so we appreciate it. Thanks very much for your help this morning. Bye, Liz.

Can she hear us? Bye-bye, Elizabeth. Thank you very much. Bye. Take care of yourself. And thank you, Rosemary care of yourself and thank you Rosemary Now, Harriet Tubman, acknowledged now as one of the great American heroines

She escaped slavery in 19th century Maryland and then risked her life to work as a conductor on the Underground Railway, helping other enslaved people gain their freedom But until now, and perhaps incredibly really, there has never been a film about her Harriet is out now It stars the British actor Cynthia Erivo and it's directed by Casey

Lemons. Here's an extract. Harriet, against the odds, has escaped her owners and reached freedom in Philadelphia. So where are the others? We're no others. You know, you can trust me. I'm a friend. Who'd you make the journey with? I left my husband and family. It was just me and the Lord. Well, I don't know if you know how extraordinary this is, but by some miraculous means, you have made it 100 miles to freedom all by yourself. Would you like to pick a new name to mark your freedom?

Most ex-slaves do. Any name you want. They call my mum a Rip, but her name Harriet. I want my mum a name and my husband, Harriet Tubman. Well, I talked to Casey, the director from her home in New York, and asked why it's taken so long to make a film about Harriet. It's interesting because we have a very cursory knowledge of her, even in the States. She's somebody that is one of the most admired people in history and yet most people

don't really know the story that well. And I think that in terms of the film industry and being able to make a film about Harriet, I think it's really only recently that we've been able to reliably make films starring women. Sometimes that's been a hard sell. And so here's a film that in the title role is a black woman. And so I think that it's taken time because of that as well. Did you meet much resistance? How long have you been involved with this project? No, it kind of came to me in a magical way. The producers had been trying to put the film together for years, decades. In fact, the original writer had written it 20 years ago. And then they brought me

on three years ago now. So for me, it's been kind of a magical journey where I was invited to a meeting. One of the producers, Daniel Toplin Lundberg, was assessing my interest and I could feel my heart racing. And I thought, okay, well, this is interesting, you know. And I thought that they wanted me to rewrite their script. And so I kind of cavalierly said, well, it would be much more interesting if I were directing. And she said, that's what we're talking about. And I kind of took my hand off my hip and leaned forward. To set it up for our listeners, Harriet Tubman was a conductor on the Underground Railroad,

which means what? It's people that are basically hiding and guiding fugitive, freedom-seeking slaves from one place to another. So conductors might be rescuing slaves actively from the plantations and then they take them to safe houses where station masters are the people that run the safe houses and so they had all these kind of code terms but it's really an organization of people both black and white that are working together to abolish slavery but also to actually move freedom-seeking slaves into freedom. And do we have any idea how many slaves got out through the Underground Railroad?

Well, certainly hundreds and hundreds. And this is at a time in the mid-19th century when the United States was really divided. The South was a place where slaves lived and the North was rather different. Yes, in the decade before the Civil War, which is when Harriet takes place, there was this incredible division in the country. It had really been going on for three decades, where the South is knowing that they're going to have to assert their rights to own people, slaves, their entire economies based on slave labour. And the North is increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of slavery.

But Congress is trying to appease the South to prevent civil war. And so you go through this very active decade where they're really struggling to keep the peace and then that eventually falls apart. In the film, some of the characters bear the physical scars of the brutality they suffered. But it's got a certificate 12A in this country, which means that everybody can see it pretty much.

And I imagine that when you were getting the film together, you did have to make a decision about how honest you could be about the brutality of it all. Well, I didn't look at it as honesty. We have had very good movies and television, frankly, that showed the brutality of slavery. And I think it's very well known in our country. But yeah, I wanted to create Harriet for a wide audience. But beyond that, I wanted to talk about physical scars. Yeah, but psychological scars. What is the trauma of family separation as opposed to the damaging of the body, which we're very familiar with, and some might say overly familiar with? These are people that loved and had children. And in fact, the slave owners exerted control over enslaved people through their families.

And I wanted to talk about what that feels like, because it was very motivating and very much a part of the Harriet Tubman story. I have read interviews with you in which you say that occasionally in film African-American heroines can be made a bit too warm and fuzzy and you wanted to be somewhat different. Yes heroes and heroines I call it the fuzzification of African-American heroes where they become kind of cuddly and all the edges taken off. And I think it had historic purposes. And for the purposes of teaching Harriet Tubman to young children, she's kind of like this old lady. And we would read of her heroism, but it was hard to access just how fierce she was. And I wanted to bring her fierceness

to the screen. This was a gun-toting young woman who was very, very strong and very fast and very, very brave. The spiritual aspect of her personality, because there's been quite a lot of discussion, hasn't there, already, about perhaps your film dwelt too much on the fact that she had visions and saw into the future? Well, it was the Harriet Tubman story. So once I realised that that was the Harriet Tubman story. So once I realized that

that's the Harriet Tubman story, and that it's actually something that we don't hear of as much, but as soon as you delve into kind of the more scholarly works, you realize that it's so intricately important to her story. It is the story. It's a Joan of Arc story. This is somebody who believes she was in a personal dialogue with God with a higher power who guided her steps and she said it over and over and over again and she had these visions and she not only told people about them but other people witnessed her going into these trance-like states or falling completely unconscious in kind of these seizures and waking up and saying she had a revelation from God

and she'd been told something and repeated what she had been told. And so it had been documented. I had to deal with it, or if I didn't deal with it, I would be in some ways hopping out. Since it came out in Britain, the reviews here have been really favourable. And, of course, the star is British, Cynthia Erivo, which didn't go down all that well in the States initially, did it? It didn't. I mean, I understand that.

And in some ways I was prepared for it. But Cynthia was incredibly right for the part, physically right for it, tiny, strong, fast, an extreme athlete, a a singer a wonderful performer and she's got this incredible force of will so I thought that she was uniquely suited for the role and the amount of research and preparation that she brought it really allowed her to create what I think will be not only a believable performance but an enduring performance. You also direct your husband in this film. I did. It's Vondie Curtis Hall plays the Reverend Green.

In practical terms, how does that work? Well, it's my fourth film with Vondie, so we're very comfortable working together. He says when he's on set, I treat him differently, I treat him like an actor, and I start looking at him more objectively. And usually I don't make a big announcement that this is my husband, he just comes in like an actor, and I start looking at him more objectively. And usually I don't make a big announcement that this is my husband. He just comes in like an actor. And it usually takes the crew a while to catch up to the fact that he's my husband.

And my son was in the film as well. And, you know, it took weeks and weeks for people to catch up to the fact that he was my son. But don't they get into embarrassing situations? And perhaps they don't, when a member of the crew might come up to them and go, God, what's this woman like? And then they have to say, actually, that's my mum or my wife. Are you saying that's never happened? They might enjoy that.

They haven't mentioned it to me. I've also read that you've said that, look, there've been loads of films about the Holocaust, rightly, because as a world, we need to face up to the horror that presented. But slavery, I mean, of course, slave ports were in Britain, there's no doubt about that, we played a part too. But it's less weighty an issue for the British than for many people still in the United States. Yeah, it's a fraught issue in the United States. And I think there's some people, African American people who feel like, okay, feel like, OK, we've lived under the weight of this for so long. Do we really need more movies about slavery? To which I say, yes, like films about wars and the Holocaust and these incredibly traumatic historical events and periods of time.

We should be willing to examine them and to learn from them. However, I look at the Harriet Tubman story as a freedom story. It's what any child could tell you that has studied Harriet in school. She escaped from slavery and then went back to liberate others. And so I really looked at this as a liberation story, as a freedom story. Yeah. Why is she not on that $20 note then? What's happened? Well, I think that Trump happened and I feel that it's been stalled, but I think that it's

inevitable. I think that she'll get her due recognition. That is Casey Lemons, who is the director of the new film Harriet. It's on general release all over the UK. Well worth seeing. It's a good slice of history, important history at that.

Now tomorrow, well, the manifestos are all out, of course. So we're asking on the programme tomorrow, what are the parties offering women and what actually matters to you? What are your big issues in the election of 2019? You can email the programme via the website bbc.co.uk forward slash Women's Hour. And on Decembercember the 4th that is our 90 minute long election 19 debate we'll have representatives from the political parties and you can ring in and take part ask questions give a view we're looking forward to it starts at the normal time 10 o'clock on the 4th of december now tourists lesbian tourists in particular have been flocking to halifax this is on the back of Gentleman Jack, of course. There's also an Anne Lister Festival.

It starts in April of next year and there are events in and around Halifax over the course of her birthday weekend. Anne Lister lived between 1791 and 1840 and left behind 23 volumes of diaries, in code, of course, famously. Jennifer Grant is the founder of Diva Destinations, and she's in our studio in Brighton. Good morning to you, Jennifer. Good morning, Jane. How are you? I'm very well, indeed. Thank you. And Zora Zankoudi is Director of Public Services at Calderdale Council.

And Zora, I guess the area has really benefited from all this. It sounds like Zora has recently gone to Mars. So we'll see if we can reconnect. But we'll go back to Jennifer. In Brighton, where things sound relatively... There hasn't been an alien invasion in Brighton as far as we know. Not as far as I know, no. They just haven't got there yet. So tell us about your company and your interest in Anne Lister.

Where did all this start? Right. Well, I run Diva Destinations. I founded Diva Destinations in 2013. And we're a specialist holiday company for gay women. And we specialise in hosted group holidays and trips, both in the UK and abroad. Being a gay woman obviously we are very aware after the fantastic BBC TV series Gentleman Jack about this incredible story, true story of Anne Lister and for the LGBT community it's just been a phenomenal journey. It's an incredible true story about this remarkable woman.

And on the back of that, we decided and we developed two Gentleman Jack tours that took place just in October. And they were popular. And they were very successful. Oh, very successful, yes. And what we did, we made a bespoke tour for our guests. And we took them on a walking tour of Halifax, which took them to all the places that Anne Lister frequented, ranging from her bank, where she met with her banker on regular occasions,

and also houses of the Rawson family and other families that she was. Yeah, I mean, her sexuality is obviously really important and at the heart of her life experience. But there are other aspects to it. She was just this remarkable, independent, not perfect business person. No, absolutely not perfect by any means. But yes, she was fiercely independent. She was renowned for doing things in in a time when women were you know very much sort of stayed at home and uh and did you know uh various tasks around the house

really and didn't get involved in the running of any business affairs at all but she did that and she did it very well um and actually she got know, there was quite a lot of abuse, both physically and verbally throughout her life for being so independent and successful. We've made contact again with Zora. Zora, hello. Hello. Oh, that's better. It's not brilliant, but it's better. The impact has been actually incredible. Visitors to Shibden Hall, which is where Anne Lister lived, up from about 2,500 last August to 14,000 this August. I mean, you must be absolutely delighted by this. We are absolutely thrilled.

I mean, I guess we always knew that Anne Lister and her story was special, but to see it brought to life and put on screen has just been phenomenal and this year alone in Shibden Hall we think will exceed 50,000 visitors which is just huge and it's great for the area and great for the whole of Calderdale. And there's been no resistance at all the locals are really enjoying it presumably more hotel rooms are going as well? Well, hotel rooms, businesses are saying they've had a 20% increase in demand, which is superb. But again, we wouldn't get resistance because Calderdale has always celebrated diversity. Hebden Bridge has been known as the lesbian capital of the world. So we've always embraced all different cultures. Yeah, I mean, I'm not laughing at Hebden Bridge at all, but why is it the lesbian capital of the world?

You know, I actually have no idea. I think it's because we're open, we're welcoming, and it's just built that sort of reputation. Yeah. So for people coming to visit Shibden Hall, the whole length of the Calder Valley is friendly, it's welcoming, and there is just so much to offer. I'm hoping that somebody from Hebden Bridge will make contact.

But Jennifer, have you got any theories on that? What is it about Hebden Bridge? Yeah, I thought you'd come to me on that one. I know that there is a large, well, one of the highest densely populated areas of lesbians living in Hebden Bridge, which has created this almost mecca for lesbians. I've been there myself, and it's a beautiful part of the country, as we know. The whole of Yorkshire is stunning. So we will need to expand on that when we know for sure.

So if anybody in Hepton Bridge can make contact, that would be very helpful. It's one of those things that we are very aware of, but um we're not 100 sure as to why okay um just very briefly you mentioned that you'd set up the holiday company because well essentially to create a safe space for lesbian couples or lesbians to go on holiday it's sad in a way isn't it that that was ever required um what would you say about that well i wouldn't like to say it's sad in a way isn't it that that was ever required um what would you say about that well i wouldn't like to say it's sad basically what it is we as you say we create a very safe space for women to connect with other other like-minded women and it's not always easy to

do that there is a lot of prejudice about still um i have to say across the UK and the world, as we know. But we bring like-minded women together in a relaxed and friendly environment. And they enjoy that because you can be open, you can be yourself. So it's not sad at all. It's actually creating a really nice environment for women. And we run some fantastic holidays. And women, you know, come back time and time again to do that, to connect and be amongst other women and enjoy a fantastic holiday as well. Good to talk to you. Thank you very much, Jennifer. Jennifer Grant from Diva Destinations. Big plug

for them. And thanks to Tesora Zan Kudi. Sorry about the line there. It was a bit dodgy, but we got there in the end. And big up to Calderdale, which is having so many more visitors. And we're still waiting for contact from Hebden Bridge to just some theories on why it is the lesbian capital of the UK. We'd welcome them. Now to the writer Sarah Hall, who has a new collection of short stories out exploring female rage and shape-shifting amongst other topics. It's called Sudden Traveller. She's in our studio in Norwich. Sarah, good morning to you. Good morning. Any theories called Sudden Traveller. She's in our studio in Norwich. Sarah, good morning to you.

Good morning. Any theories on Hebden Bridge? No. Yes. Go. Lumbank. Lumbank, very close by. So writing centre,

lots of cooperative shops. I think it's quite a progressive place generally and a place of creativity and a place of liberalism. So I think, you know, not just lesbians going there, lots of liberal minded people, lots of progressive people going there.

And it's always been wonderful whenever I've taught at the centre nearby. That's interesting, isn't it? There are just parts of Britain where creativity is allowed to flourish for whatever reason. And we should we should definitely celebrate it. Can you tell me, I mean, you've been a hugely successful, critically acclaimed novelist. For you, what's the appeal of the short story? Oh, it's difficult to say. I mean, they're such potent items. And I have always loved the short story as a reader. So, you know, when I was studying literature, I was studying the short story, but they take quite a lot of time to

get right when you're trying to write them. There's quite a long apprenticeship, a bit like poetry. So it sounds strange to say that you would think the novel would be the trickier item to write. But short stories really require a combination of sort of economy and condensed meaning distillation of the world. But I always loved reading them. And I always did want to write them. It just took me a while to kind of get the confidence, get the practice and get them right. I want you to read from us from one of the short stories in this collection Orton now this is about an elderly woman just tell us a little bit more before you build it up. Oh I thought we were reading from M. Oh M I do apologise carry on.

That's okay I was gonna have to flick my pages very quickly. Actually the reason I mentioned Orton was because I just read it but anyway carry on carry on, go on. Ah, okay, good. So the story M is about a woman who is working as a solicitor in London. And she in the daytime, she's working on a case to keep a women's shelter open. And it looks like a very hopeless case. There's a lot of secret money in the city behind the shutting of this refuge. But in the night, something very strange is happening to her. She's undergoing a kind of strange change. So we're joining the story sort of about halfway through where this has happened to her

and she's begun to realise that she has a sort of secondary self at night. Go on then. Such a raucous call. There are so many she could not have known before, and she cannot find them all. She seeks first the ones who transmit loudest, smell strongest, those who cannot hide and for whom it will be worst. Girls. The girl given animal tranquilizers, shared by seven of them, a lottery of seed inside her. The girl found on the estuary bank, inside a suitcase, not able to speak English, who left the hospital before the interpreter arrived, ghosting every camera. The girl who was filmed, and filmed after giving her consent.

The girl whose uncle. The girl whose mother's lover. The girl whose uncle, the girl whose mother's lover, the girl whose cousin, the girl who jumped from the bridge and was caught by an angel with wings so vast they looked like moons, who was made love to in the sky and set down by the lion on the bridge, and that lion was no more a lion than a lapdog then. And that is a story about a woman who changes form and takes on unearthly powers, is that right? That's right.

So the character's based on a kind of a worldwide sign or cipher that shows up in folk tales. It's the kind of older, childless woman, you know, in oral stories and written stories across the world and in different guises. This character shows up with powers, you know, in oral stories and written stories across the world and in different guises. This character shows up with powers, you know, whether she's a witch or something else, always slightly potent and very worrisome,

mostly to men. But this particular character, M, is based on a folk creature from the Philippines called the Manananggal, which is a very frightening creature, a body splitter. At night, she leaves behind the lower half of her body, legs, genitals, everything cast aside, grows huge bat-like wings, and takes

to the air. And she is mostly an abortionist. So pregnant women were often warned not to sleep on their backs just in case this creature arrived and used this long kind of proboscis tongue to kind of abort the foetuses. It's a terrible, grotesque, frightening story. But in some ways, my version of M is much more positive, empowered story all about female agency and choice. Now, because I mentioned Orton, I do want to talk about this. This is the story of the older woman who makes what is actually a positive decision to take her own life. That's right. So all of the stories have a slight uncanny quality or a supernatural quality or a science fiction quality. And the story of Orton has a science fiction aspect to it in that this

woman has been fitted with a new generation of pacemaker for her heart. She's suffering heart disease, but she has the ability to turn it off when she's ready. So really, it's a story about euthanasia and again, agency in your life, making those momentous decisions. And so we sort of, in the story, she's thinking back to her life. She chooses a place to go to that's very significant for her in relation to facing fear. You know, this is a book about facing fear. The stories are all facing fear, facing power dynamics, thinking about how they take that on

and how the women particularly in these stories take back some control in their life as far as that's possible. And of course, you know, life is an uncontrolled thing often. Yes, you do write passionately about sex and death, don't you, frankly? Well, I do. But I think other short story writers have said as well that those are the kind of calling cards of form. They're the sort of big items. And because short stories are distilling the whole world into small bite sized bits of literature, you kind of can't get away from those main operating keys. So whether it's happening off stage or being tackled directly,

those are the themes, I think, that crop up again and again. And because the short story is often about pulling the rug out from under the reader, you know, you think you're safe. You think you understand the human policy and the systems of the world. But hang on a moment. This might happen to you. It's unexpected. What do you think about that?

Again, those moments are often kind of sex and death related where something might shake up your way of thinking or kind of create a rift in your life. Really interesting to talk to you. Thank you very much. Is it a novel next for you? It's a novel next, yep. That was the writer Sarah Hall, whose collection of short stories, Sudden Traveller, is out now.

But as she said there, she is going to go back to the novel form. Interesting talking to her. Thanks to Sarah. Now, to your thoughts on, well, the first conversation we had today, and I have to say it's pretty unforgettable, actually, listening to Elizabeth and to Rosemary. Really powerful testimony from them both. And actually, they're really contained. They aren't really

able to go into the detail of what they went through as very, very young children. But it's just not easy to be able, or to carry on with the rest of your life with this always in your history as being your start in life. And Valerie says, it was a real privilege to listen to such articulate and brave women communicating the details of the issues the alternatives and their rationale their cause is one of humanity and justice which they presented concisely and clearly another listener says hierarchy in mother and baby homes is no surprise to me after hearing about a class-based hierarchy amongst nuns themselves from a friend's great-aunt.

Interesting and important discussion this morning. Surely the Irish government must be led by survivors regarding these papers. From Susan, in 1968 I was in a Baptist mother and baby home in mainland Britain. Treatment there wasn't as harsh as in the Irish homes, although we were used as convenient domestics. We would walk to the local Baptist chapel on Sundays where we sat segregated from the general congregation. Although nothing was said, it was difficult to escape the feeling that we were there as an example of fallen girls with loose morals. These were the people who would go on to adopt babies from the home yes i mean it's important

to say these these homes of course were certainly not restricted to ireland um from joe i was reminded of a friend who went into clapton mother's home in london to have her baby back in the 60s it was run by nuns and it took in laundry for restaurants and hotels the regime was draconian and the girls were made to feel ashamed and worthless. She lasted a week in there and then got a message to me pleading to break her out. Her baby was due to be adopted but I did go to get her which caused quite a commotion. Nevertheless I took her home. Everything should be done to get these girls stories out there. I know it's a long time ago but it still isn't right to ignore it or cover it up.

Quite right. Now, and we'll keep in touch, by the way, with Rosemary and Elizabeth and make sure that we do follow up on what happens to them and to those records. To the question of why Hebden Bridge is, I think it was described on the programme, as a lesbian mecca, which is possibly a loaded term.

But anyway, at least one of our contributors did say that. Judith got in touch to say, actually, it's Todmorden that's the lesbian capital. The lesbian disco has been going there for more than 30 years. Frankly, I'm sick of Hebden Bridge getting the credit. So there's always a bit of needle, isn't there? Whatever you're talking about, it's never simple. Laura, when local industry died out in the 60s and 70s, lots of cheap property was bought by hippies and creative types

who were basically left to their own devices. News spread and voila, tolerant and artistic Hebden Bridge was born, as we know it. Right, and they had another one of other contributors. I'm just looking at our Twitter feed. Just bear with me, I'll plough on. Oh yes, here we are. Elaine says, about Hebden Bridge being a so-called mecca for lesbians,

don't forget that Sylvia Plath is buried just up the road, possibly a consideration. You're quite right, Elaine, and I should have known that, and I apologise. I think that a lot of other people have also mentioned that. And what else have we had here? My neighbour, we'll keep this one anonymous. My neighbour moved to Hebden Bridge with her lesbian partner, and she now runs a business turning umbilical cord into a powdered product you can eat. That, says our contributor, is Hebden Bridge. Okay, Todmorden, beat that. I doubt you can. And from another listener, I met a lovely social

worker years ago whose mum had worked in the mills here in Hebden Bridge. She always said that women were the top earners in the town and this was always a woman's town, which led to great support and acceptance of all women, lesbians included. That's a very interesting point, isn't it? I wonder whether that is also a factor. There's a lot to unearth here, which is why I am certain we should do Woman's Hour from Hebden Bridge in the very, very near future.

We'll work on that. And actually, if you are perhaps somebody who owns an establishment in Hebden Bridge of any kind, and you might want to extend a warm welcome to us, that is possible. Contact the programme via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour. Get involved. And yes, we'll come. And we don't cause that much trouble. It's inconvenient, but it can also be quite exhilarating, I've been told. Thank you very much for listening. We're back tomorrow.

Amongst other things, we're going to be talking about what the parties are offering women in election 2019. Hi, everybody. I'm Caitlyn Jenner, and I am a guest on Simon Mundy's Don't Tell Me the Score podcast. We talked about everything, the Olympics, trans issues, and all the lessons that I have learned along the way. I really enjoyed recording the podcast, and I hope you enjoy listening to it. You can hear it on BBC Sounds. Just search for Don't Tell Me the Score. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.