Woman's Hour - History of Knitting, Labour Conference 2019, US Black Maternal Health Clinic

Episode Date: September 24, 2019

It is widely expected that continuing conflict over Brexit will result in an early general election. Research suggests that younger women who vote Labour are more likely to favour remaining in the EU, while many of the Labour Party’s older female voters and traditional voters are thought to have backed Leave in 2016. So, how will Labour Party appeal to all of its women supporters? On Woman's Hour this week we’re hearing from people with dementia about how music helps them cope. The Alzheimer's society organises Singing for the Brain groups across the country. Henrietta Harrison went along to one of them in Hackney in North London and met two daughters who are caring for their mothersJennie Joseph is a UK trained midwife whose work has successfully reduced maternal and perinatal mortality in the most vulnerable groups of women in the US. Her community based maternity centre in Orlando, the JJ Way, offers free care to all women and has dramatically improved outcomes for mothers and their babies. And The Birthplace, a clinic founded around her model of care has become a renowned pregnancy care centre. So what might the UK learn from work now being done in the US where black women of all backgrounds have long faced a much higher risk of maternal death than white women?When Esther Rutter received a gift of some unusual Shetland wool, she was unsure what to make with it, and so set out on a voyage of discovery through the knitting history and culture of the British Isles. On the way, she discovered the secret feminist history of knitting.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Anneliese Dodds Interviewed guest: Jennie Joseph Interviewed guest: Esther Rutter Reporter: Henrietta Harrison Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast, the 24th of September 2019 on Woman's Hour Today. We visit Singing for the Brain Group, organised by the Alzheimer's Society, in Hackney in North London, because we're discussing, we're featuring really music and dementia throughout this week. Also today, an interview with Jenny Joseph, who is a UK trained midwife now doing some really pioneering and important work in Florida. This is in the light of the, to me anyway,

shocking figures about black maternal mortality rates in the UK. Black women in Britain are five times as likely to die in pregnancy, in childbirth and postpartum. The situation is slightly better in the States. So Jenny Joseph will attempt to explain why and tell us about her work on Woman's Hour today. And also we've got a lovely discussion about the history of knitting with an author, Esther Rutter. First, then, to the Labour Party conference in Brighton. And I talk today to the Shadow Financial Secretary to the Treasury and Labour MP for Oxford East, Annalise Dodds. The first question really was all about the somewhat negative newspaper coverage today around the Labour Party's Brexit strategy or policy, or quite possibly lack of it, depending on your point of view. So I promised Annalise we'd talk about that later in

the conversation, but I wanted to start with her party's flurry of policy announcements. What was their offering to women? Well, I hope some people will have heard about John McDonald's announcement yesterday around free personal care. That's something that we've been working on for a very, very long time. Obviously, we have a complete lottery across the country. Most places now, unless you have really, really severe needs, you won't get that covered anymore. We don't think that's fair. Of course, in Scotland, there's already free personal care. And so we have set out plans now to ensure that that will apply in England as well.

OK, for anyone who isn't 100% certain, what are we talking about here exactly? So we're talking about those services, so not so-called hotel services, but those services that people might need to help them to get up in the morning, to get dressed, to have food, to have a wash, and as well as ensuring that those services would be provided free for people at the point of use, we would also make sure that they would be provided through a proper national care service where workers are properly paid. And of course, the vast majority of those workers are women. Yeah, I think it's over 80%, isn't it?

And indeed, the majority of people who require the service are also female. That's right. Yeah, I think it's over 80%, isn't it? And indeed, the majority of people who require the service are also female. That's right. Yes, exactly. How will it all be funded? Well, at the last general election, we set out our plans for spending and also for revenue. And we were quite explicit about the fact that we would be shifting towards a more progressive tax system. As I'm sure listeners will be aware, the tax paid by the top 5% proportionally has reduced. There's been tax cuts for the very best of people. We've also seen tax cuts for profitable companies as well. We have been very explicit and said we think that's the wrong direction.

We think that needs to change. That will liberate funding for a whole variety of different things. And we will be setting out those plans, those precise plans at the time of the next election so that people can judge for themselves just like they could at the time of the last election. There'll be plenty of women listening who are fortunate enough to earn a decent amount of money.

They, I'm sure, would argue spiritedly that they have earned that larger salary. They might not feel they're big earners, though, and they might be a bit concerned that they're going to be clobbered by a Labour government. Well, we're talking about the top 5% of earners though and they might be a bit concerned that they're going to be clobbered by a Labour government? Well we're talking about the top five percent of earners now of course there will be some women who would be covered by that but actually when I talk to people of whatever income level they're really deeply concerned about the lack of investment we've had in our public services in particular recently and obviously that affects, we think that a new approach is necessary.

Just let's pin it down a bit. The top 5% of earners, what are they earning? So we've said, for example, that we would change the income tax regime for those earning over £80,000 and those earning over, I think it's 124k as well. That is really quite a small proportion of people in the UK. We'd also change the inheritance tax regime, which of course isn't paid by people, it's paid by estates. That affects 4% of estates. And we would also change the corporation tax regime.

And of course, overwhelmingly, those who've benefited from the corporation tax cuts have been men it hasn't been women and um we're going to get a shorter working week how many hours a 32 well we we want to do this in a planned way in a sensible way so we've set out a variety of mechanisms to eventually achieve that reduction we think that's necessary because we've got obviously appalling levels of stress people finding it really really difficult to get the to eventually achieve that reduction. We think that's necessary because we've got, obviously, appalling levels of stress, people finding it really, really difficult to get the right work-life balance. I would say that that policy is going to be coupled, of course,

with Don Butler's announcement last year to say that people should have the right not just to request flexible working, but to actually have flexible working if it's feasible in the workplace. So stopping it being often the women's responsibility to try and ask for it and a lot of time not get it and making employers take much more of a responsibility there. What about the funding of all this if, in fact, we leave the European Union? Well, obviously, it particularly depends on how we leave there will be a fiscal hit either way but if we look at a no deal brexit for example philip hammond while he was chancellor spelled out the

fact that that would have a significant impact on revenue and obviously we would need to take that into account it would be only prudent to do so i think actually in those circumstances there would be a lot of additional calls on the public purse. We'd be looking at people potentially finding it very difficult to afford food. Obviously, in many, many cases, women trying to keep their families afloat. Which is diabolical, isn't it, Annalise? When you actually think about it, the potential, and it is only the potential because we can't be 100% certain, for rising food prices in the event of a no-deal Brexit. I mean, that is potentially, for some women listening right now, who are, you're right, running households,

largely up to them to make sure there's a decent meal on the table at night. They're going to be very frightened by that prospect. They will be. I would say, I mean, certainly as a constituency MP, I've been kind of talking to the local emergency services and others. And I think there's a widespread awareness amongst those services that there needs to be a joined up system to make sure that, you know, where there is need that people would receive those resources. For me, the question isn't so much about, I guess, the kind of first couple of days or week, etc., if there were extreme shortages. It's actually about the cumulative impact of this when so many families are already struggling.

And, you know, if they have some other life event on top of increased food prices like the cooker breaking down or whatever, we can see that pushing really quickly people into debt. Well, life is full of events and not all of them are positive, of course. Let's talk about Brexit then. You're an interesting constituency, actually. Oxford East, I imagine, is overwhelmingly Remain, isn't it? It is, but just like the rest of the country, it does vary. So the estate where I live voted to leave. Most of our estates voted to leave. But overall, it was about 70% of people who voted to remain. But let's say there is a general election and you are going around, you know what I'm going to ask you, you knock on a door, ring a doorbell, you encounter somebody

you need to woo, someone whose vote you need as a party. Maybe it's a mum with a couple of kids, she's got two part-time jobs on the go, She's quite busy, preoccupied with a whole wealth of other things going on in her life. She'd just like to know what your party's policy on Brexit is. And you say? Well, I can say to her what the party's policy was that was determined at conference, which is that they would seek a deal to then put that to the people. I have to say in my own constituency, I've made it very, very clear to my electorate, and I've done that for a very long time, that I would personally campaign to remain in that event. So I've made that commitment and I'm not going to renege on

that commitment. So you are a Remainer, you remain a Remainer, nothing will sway you from that. You were also an MEP, we should say. So all this is actually for you personally, quite excruciating, isn't it really? Well, no, I don't think it is. And actually, you know, we have to... Well, if it's not excruciating, what is it? Is it just really confusing? I don't think it's really confusing. Well, I think it reflects the nature of Brexit as an issue, actually. And, you know, I know lots and lots of people are pretty sick of it, and I can understand why after three years. But, you know, we had that initial period after the referendum,

where even although I'd personally campaigned to remain exactly as you say, I thought it would have been possible to get a compromise. I really thought it would be possible to somehow develop some kind of a deal that wouldn't be too damaging. I thought that was something that could be done. Did you vote for Theresa May's deal at any time?

I didn't vote for her deal because her deal, I felt, was an extreme deal because in particular it didn't cover customs and that's really fundamental to ensuring that we have that frictionless trade. So I didn't think her deal was something that could be supported. But now you're in a position where you're relying on a better deal somehow or other coming back to the House of Commons in the next couple of weeks. Is that likely? Well, this is what Boris Johnson has told us he's going to achieve. I have to say when I talk to friends of mine who are in the EU, they say that they don't feel that there's been a lot of serious

attempt at negotiation. What do your friends in the EU, what do they think about the chances of Labour negotiating a new deal, which is also something else we're being told will happen? Well, of course, we've already had some of those relationships made. We've had Keir and Jeremy indeed going to speak to people in Brussels, in fact, a number of times.

Yeah, but that's interesting in itself, isn't it? Keir is a known Remainer, a passionate Remainer. How can he honestly go to Brussels and negotiate an effective deal? Well, I really don't think we should assume that under Labour we would have the same kind of shambles that's occurred under the Tories because we've been clear about what we think needs to be in a deal.

In particular, we said we need to have those assurances around customs going forward, so important for keeping the Good Friday Agreement held to, so important for our business. Now, we could achieve that kind of a negotiation, actually, I think, in a couple of days, right? Really? It's just a question of confirming what we've always been asking for. When I've talked to my friends in the EU about this issue, they said, well well that's what we want as well we want to have that security and stability on customs also so I don't think that we would be talking about the kind of negotiation that they can say well the problem

with the Conservatives is they haven't said what they've wanted for so long they've been focused on trying to placate some very very right-wing individuals for whom only no deal really is acceptable and you know we're kind of reaping the consequences of that. So you're confident the some very, very right-wing individuals for whom only no deal really is acceptable. And, you know, we're kind of reaping the consequences of that. So you're confident the European Union will give a better deal to a Labour delegation led by a man who's a passionate Remainer? Well, I think it would be a better deal because it's one that would be focused on preserving jobs in the UK. It would be focused on not turning our country into some kind of bargain basement, deregulated tax haven, but instead saying, right, we need to keep in pace with the EU on working

rights on environmental protections and so forth. So I think it would be a much, much better deal. And actually, as I say, that reflects the nature of those discussions that I know have been occurring for many months now. I know the polls aren't everything in fact sometimes they're absolutely nothing but if you believe any polling at all recently your leader is not popular do you believe now that his critics have a point when they say he's actually not an electoral asset the man's a liability? Well I think it's quite interesting to compare where we are now to what happened with the last election. So at the last election, there was naturally more of a focus on policies and people started listening more to what Jeremy was actually saying. And I had people on the doorstep saying to me, oh, actually, I've changed my view because I've

heard what he's putting across. I think we're likely to see that at the time of the next election. Now, of course, it's going to be harder for Labour because there'll be more of a focus on Brexit and people will be focused on that issue, not so much on our domestic policy agenda, which is overwhelmingly positively received in my experience. So, you know, we've got to work harder. We've got to get better at communicating what we're doing. And would I like us to be doing better in the polls? Of course I would. But I don't think that that means that we can't win the next general election I think that's still

possible. But is he the man to bring the country together genuinely? Well you know Jeremy has done something quite different so you know at the very beginning of his leadership campaign he was saying that he wanted to have a different style of politics. And that is what you get with Jeremy. You don't get the spin. You don't get all of the stage management. You get him saying what he thinks. Well, saying what he thinks, at the moment he's telling us that he doesn't have a view on the single most important topic on the agenda. Well, I think to be fair to him, he's saying he wants to look at what would

come out of that special conference um so i uh you know i'm sure he'd be he'd be guided by that um so i don't think it's fair to say that he doesn't have any view and i think he does but he feels that it's important to actually go through that process of trying to get another deal now we've talked a lot over the last couple of weeks about politics on this programme. I've talked to Sal Brinton of the Liberal Democrats, to the Brexit Party MEP, Claire Fox. And I'm going to put the same point to you, that the toxicity in much of British politics at the moment

and in political debate is plain nasty, isn't it? I don't know how you've suffered or whether you've suffered to any degree, but what would you say about that, Annalise? Yeah, I think it is incredibly damaging actually and I think it puts off a lot of people from becoming politically active because they think as soon as they put their head above the parapet they'll immediately have a huge amount of negativity thrown at them. I think there are many many different things that need to be done to deal with that. I think that actually a lot of the time unfortunately social media has fuelled a bit of this

because, of course, it's anonymous, so people can say whatever they like. I mean, I find, for example, that sometimes my staff have to have a bit of a pause on the phones after I've been on the television because people are very, very concerned about my hair, for example, my makeup, my clothes. It's something that I guess women in politics are kind of used to. But the big problem with it is that I think it does put off new people from coming in. And we really need that. And that is a real danger because women's voices need to be heard because so many of these decisions are going to affect women in their lives. Well, I'm sorry you get stick for your hair if it's any comfort. My own hair is abundant and uncontrollable. Thank you very much. As it should be.

Exactly. Good to talk to you. Thank you very much. That's the Labour MP for Oxford East, Annalise Dodds. Any thoughts on that? Of course, you can be polite and I'm sure you will be on social media at BBC Women's Hour. That's Twitter and Instagram. Now, it's BBC Music Day on Thursday, the annual celebration across the BBC of the power of music to change lives. Now, on this programme, we're hearing from people this week who are living with dementia, and we'll also hear about how music helps them to cope. You heard yesterday from the brilliant Teresa. If you missed yesterday's programme, make sure you get the podcast. We know that music therapy can be helpful and the Alzheimer's Society

organises singing for the brain groups across the country. Our reporter Henrietta Harrison went to one of them in Hackney in North London and met two daughters caring for their mothers. There's an old passing cottage I lie in the window Hello, everyone. Hello. I'm Glenn Bassett. I'm singing for the Brain Group Leader. You all right?

Yeah, I'm okay. So the part of the session where people do solos, sometimes you do it at the start, sometimes in the middle, sometimes not at all, but it comes from this radical notion of just asking people what they want to do. And so it would feel wrong to not include their special talent in the group if they've got it. It's their way of participating. Everyone will be enthusiastic about whatever anyone in the group can contribute that's special to them.

My mum sang, there's an old-fashioned lady and a boy to school was marching. Singing merrily. Wonderful. Do you know these songs, Nelly? No. Sometimes I can sing a bit of it, but not all. Where did they come from? She learned it when she was in primary school. She grew up in Ghana, West Africa. How does music play a part in your mum's life?

Oh, she loves it. When she listens to music, she's OK. She feels happy. We play church hymns, mostly. She loves gospel music. How do you find listening to the music? Oh, it's good. It inspires us. It helps us

think of our Heavenly Father and who we are. Yeah. How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found. Tell me, what benefits do you get from bringing your mum to this? I just love to see her happy. Although sometimes it's hard to get her out of bed, to get her ready to come to this place. We don't live far from here, but we are always late these days.

And it's getting worse. But she enjoys it. The moment I say, you're going singing, then she'll realise, oh, she has to get out of bed and get herself ready, which makes me happy as well because I've got somewhere to bring her. So it gets you out of the house? Yeah, it does.

It gets her out of the house and it gets me out of the house as well. We leave. OK, ABBA or John Denver? ABBA. Oh, that's a definite thumbs up for ABBA on that one. OK, we'll do that ABBA. I have a dream That's all I can see

It seems quite a diverse group. You've got men, women, people with different backgrounds, probably at different stages of the disease as well. How hard is it to effectively find a playlist for them all? It's tricky, but I think as long as you include something for everybody and make it participatory in some way, then everyone's really happy. Tell me, what are your top three songs that always go down really well?

Well, it depends on which group I do, actually. So the top three songs in Romford might be very different to the top three songs here in Hackney. So here any Bob Marley songs will go down well so One Love or Three Little Birds something like that but also country and western type things as well so with Jim Reeves, Elvis, Cliff Richard is a very very popular one. My name is Jennifer Tobias and I'm 57 years old. I am Veronica Tobias and I was born 1938-39. Veronica, tell me why you enjoy coming to this singing group. Well for coming here, you meet friends and you relax yourself because you cannot stay in the house all the time.

And what sort of music have you listened to over the years? My music is my music my people play, you know. Calypso, mummy. Music's always played, it's always played in our house. You know, dare I say, Jim Reeves, Elvis, Cliff Richard, all those kind of people. You know, Jimmy Cliff, Bob Marley. So my parents were very musical. Every day we had music on.

But because my mum's also from a Catholic church background, music has always been something that has meant a great deal to her and myself. So what do you find that you get from this group? Mummy becomes energised, wonderful Glenn there, he has something about him. I was one of these sort of individuals when I was told to bring mum here because it would make her smile and give her that little oomph that she needed. I was one of the disbelievers, I just thought what is singing for the brain going to do for my mother, what kind of music would they play? Would she respond to that? But we came, we've been coming out for about four months, something like that. One of the best decisions I made,

mommy's just a different person as you may have seen her today. She's dancing, very sociable, wants to be part of everything, singing away even though she doesn't know the words, she'll be humming, she gets people involved as well so her old self sort of, that sort of comes back to life. Everybody feels like you're just in one big community and that's what I like about it, there's no airs and graces or you do this song or you don't know that and why don't you know that we just do what we can do and our reporter Henrietta Harrison was at that Alzheimer's Society singing for the brain group in Hackney in North London and on Thursday Jenny is going to be talking to some people who use dementia in who use music I'm sorry in dementia care and asking why it is proving to be so beneficial in so many cases. And if you missed Friday's edition of Woman's Hour, it was a very upbeat, jolly

affair, basically just in praise of dance, because Strictly was coming back to the telly on Saturday night and Shirley Ballas was one of the guests and I danced awkwardly with Curtis Pritchard. You had to be there really really. But if you were, you'll never forget that sight. That was Friday's edition of Woman's Hour. Again, the podcast is available via BBC Sounds. Now, in July, Woman's Hour focused on black maternal mortality rates in Britain. And it's an astonishing truth that black women here are five times more likely to die during pregnancy, birth or postpartum than their white counterparts. In the USA, the situation is marginally better.

Women of colour are three to four times more likely to die. Jenny Joseph is here. I'm delighted to say good morning to you, Jenny. Good morning. A UK trained midwife now working in Florida, where you are the founder and CEO of Common Sense Childbirth. That's right, isn't it? That's right. And you were in Britain yesterday for a conference on that very subject, the horrendous black maternal mortality rates in Britain. First thing we need to emphasise, Jenny, is this is not new, is it? Absolutely not.

Sadly, the truth is this has been going on for a very long time. And in the United States, obviously, for decades, I would almost say centuries. It's quite ridiculous. And the fact is that now as we bring this information forward, people act very surprised, horrified, just incredulous. But actually, it's been in plain sight. And we need to now really start moving forward with changing, fixing. This cannot go on. It cannot stand. You did work as a midwife in the UK for quite some time, didn't you? Absolutely. I was trained here. In fact, I was a midwife in Edgeware General Hospital. It started in 1979. I immigrated to the States in 1989. So I've been in the United States for 30 years. But I took that British midwife with me,

I was compelled to use my midwifery skills. But interestingly, the Americans don't use midwifery as the main support for women's health and pregnancy. What do they do? Literally obstetricians handle most of the cases, I would say 90% of the maternity cases. So what's happened is obstetrics became a specialty. You have to acknowledge that it's because money changes hands. And in that specialty, women have suffered because midwifery, as you know, worldwide is taking care of women in their prenatal, postpartum and during birth. And when you have specialists doing that, they kind of come up with things to do, interventions, surgery, things that are harmful, it seems to women. And that has some part to play in the morbidity and mortality of women. But what's most important to recognise

here, Jane, is that it's the structural behaviours that are lethal. Okay, now I want to take you up on that. I know you've made a big difference in Florida, and we'll talk about that. When you talk about structural change and difference in Britain, I would assume everyone can, whether they do or not, it's neither here nor there, but they can access antenatal care because it's free. Money isn't part of the problem. So why do we have problems? Well, you see, it's really not about access. We thought it was. And in the United States, that's a big problem because health care is not free.

You have to be able to pay for health care or you have to be insured. But here in the UK, when you have free access, what we haven't really considered is the quality of care that you're accessing, the type of care that's delivered to you. So it's not to suggest that the care is poor, but there is definite evidence that the biases, the unconscious or conscious biases and ways of being are what impacts the quality of the care you receive. So for example, what I'm talking about here would be a woman of color, perhaps an African American, I'm sorry, an African descent woman may have different treatment, whether it's on, you know, purposeful or, an African descent woman may have different treatment, whether it's, you know, purposeful or not. In the UK.

In the United Kingdom, simply because of the race, because of her colour. And that the, you know, the choices for her may be different or the response to her may be different. One of the things we know across both continents is that women, black women especially, are not listened to, not believed, not trusted, not engaged in terms of their, you know, being self-determined in their care, having an opinion in their care, being ignored. I mean, people are dying for being ignored. Take me to that conference yesterday then. What was it you said in a nutshell? Basically, it's time to tell the truth. We have to acknowledge what's going on here. We cannot put the blame on women, which is what happens quite often. Oh, well, she's overweight. Oh, well, she should have eaten better. Oh, well, all of these reasons that we put on the women, the conditions of the women are not their fault.

This is because of the fact that we've allowed structural behavior to impact their health. We have put barriers in ways. We have prevented women from being able to be safe inside of environments that are there for their very safety. So the conference yesterday was really powerful. And it was entitled Sankofa, a reproductive looking back in order to go forward. And that's why it was important to bring the historical context into that. This has been over a course of decades that we have structurally disenfranchised women of colour, black women, in the system. And that's why the outcomes are showing us that we are now in these dire straits, that we must act, that we need to look at equity. It's time to look at why is it that there's different care delivered to different people according to their race or colour? What about the impact, though, of women of colour who work within the system? Britain, absolutely rightly, owes a huge debt of thanks to the many women who

came to work in the NHS. That is so important. We have really realised that, you know, black women were the backbone of the NHS. And to this day, we know there's discrimination inside of that. There's more disciplinary action, for example, against black nurses and midwives. There's less promotion, there's less opportunity. Certainly, the way that they have been treated in the system has also impacted health. So you've got a sort of a double edged sword here from the perspective of the women themselves, the patients and the employees. You've got both sides suffering under the impact of racism within that system.

And the long term, there's not an investment in both sides thriving and flourishing and having full agency inside of this system. So grateful that we may be for the fact that you can access the care. We now have to acknowledge that that care has not been of the same quality for everybody. It is not equitable care that's being delivered. You are absolutely just straight down the line about this. I've read about you and you say being black shouldn't be a risk factor, but we have to acknowledge that racism is. Absolutely. So it's racism, not race, that's causing the problem. But we continue to look at this as if it's, well,

there must be something inherently wrong with black women. It's not genetic. It's not physiological. It has to then be the treatment. You see, because in the United States, we look at this as, oh, well, women can't access the care at all. If they don't have insurance or they're low income, or they're in rural areas where there are no services, that's the reason why they're dying. No. Because here we are, clearly in the United Kingdom, we have access and for all dying. Yes. The one thing you never have to worry about here, and we don't give thanks for this often enough, is the cost of it. So take me to Florida and your clinic. What happened? Why have you had success rates?

And let's focus on, for example, low birth weight. Yes. Well, historically, black women in the United States have premature babies how low birth weight, I'm sorry. Yeah. Yes. Well, historically, black women in the United States have premature babies, low birth weight babies, and they themselves are pretty ill during pregnancy and in between a pregnancy. Because? Because of the fact that they can't access any kind of quality care or support. So when I got there as a midwife, I was really keen to practice as a midwife and midwifery is not very common in the United States either. So you can imagine. So I started a practice where I was very keen to open the doors to anyone who wanted the care. And it was simply an offering that unrestricted access to care, whether you could pay or couldn't pay, whether you were insured or not. And over the course of these

last three decades, we figured out that just being compassionate, open, trusting, listening, those kinds of behaviours have literally eradicated prematurity in the population of women I serve. And I do serve majority women of colour, women who are at risk for these poor outcomes. Suddenly they're thriving. So if you think about that, what I'm doing is not even expensive. It's not anything unusual. How is it funded? Well, it's very difficult. We are a nonprofit organization. We have some grant funds. We have some donations. But really, we just sort of break even and we just keep going.

I feel like it's from the perspective of it's a human right to have access to quality care that's going to keep you safe, that you are going to be able to survive your pregnancy and your birth and your child will thrive. So we do that from a place of this is our work. This is our mission, if you will. But that is unconscionable to not offer care in this way, especially with the outcomes being so clear. And it starts the minute, let's say it's a girl of 17 who walks through the front door. She happens to be a black, young black woman. How is she treated?

She's welcomed. There's no judgment. There's no judgment. There's no blame. There's no, well, where have you been? Oh, my gosh, surely not. Like none of that kind of judgment that can be so demoralizing. Having eye contact, smiling, right, welcoming, so that this woman feels like we're here to support you.

What do you need? From working with her from where she's at, what's her situation? What does she need? So there's some physiological support for the pregnancy itself, but most of this is emotional support, Jane. It's looking at the whole picture. Who is in your team? Where are they? Can they come to? Let's bring everybody on board. We have a mission here. Full-term healthy baby, mother thriving, breastfeeding supported all the way through to the other end infant mortality is rife in the united states babies don't make it to their first birthday you know i don't think many people will have forgotten the serena williams experience which exactly just for anyone

who has just briefly outline what she said serena really considering wealth celebrity power everything agency yes she was still in the dire straits because as a black woman, when she put her head out of the door and said to the nurse, I need help, she was ignored. Right. And this really confirms for us that it is about racism. It's about classism a lot. It's definitely about sexism. Okay. And certainly the structure that supports and condones that behavior. In other words, there isn't the same disciplinary action for, oh, you're the one that didn't call Serena's doctor. You're out. No, it's OK. Well, you know, so that's where we know that that's where the work has to be done.

We have to change our responses. I call this maternal toxicity. And it's a pop-up situation. The response to who you are, your race or your social economic status, that response can be lethal. That's where you bring the maternal toxicity around yourself just by being who you are. That's what we have to address. Thank you. I find it absolutely fascinating. You're a compelling speaker. And I hope that yesterday was constructive. It's the beginning of a conversation here, a conversation that should have started, as you say, a long time ago. But as we always say, if you're on maternity leave now, and we must emphasise, Jenny, that thankfully in this country, maternal mortality rates are low. They're very low. And they are across the spectrum. It's not during childbirth itself, but often through pregnancy, postpartum as well. So keep in mind, it's not

very common, but it still has to be addressed. It certainly does. Thank you very much, Jenny. Thank you. Jenny Joseph, who's heading back to Florida at the weekend. Great to speak to her. Thank you very much. Now, guerrilla knitting, yarn bombing, feminist knitting. I think we've done a lot over the years. And of course, Celia Pym was one of the finalists in the 2017 Woman's Hour Craft Prize. She spectacularly I thought used knitting and embroidery and darning for her piece which you might remember was called Darned Fingertips. Today we're focusing on a new book called This Golden Fleece, a journey through Britain's knitted history written by Esther Rotter. Esther is in our Edinburgh studio. Esther good morning to you.

Good morning, Jane. Now, you are the right person. You grew up on a sheep farm, and I imagine wool and sheep played a part in your early life then, to put it mildly. Absolutely. Not only did I grow up on the sheep farm and helped out with the sheep, but my mum is also a fantastic spinner and weaver herself. So I learned to spin from her, but she wasn't a knitter. In fact, it was it was my best friend's mum a woman called Suzanne who taught me to knit when I was seven and I've been knitting ever since. Right and you've got a gift relatively recently I think of some particular kind of wool what happened there? Yes so again this was my mum she gave me this amazing characterful Shetland wool as a present a Christmas present and it was just amazing and I just kept looking at it and thinking,

wow, I need to make something really special from this. And that sent me on a quest to knit my way around the entire British Isles and to recreate 12 historic and culturally relevant garments that told the story of Britain's knitted history. I've said that knitting is political and feminist, or it could be. Should it be? Oh, absolutely. There's a really long pedigree among knitting,

knitting history, of knitting being really political. So, for example, the first Luddites, the workers from Nottinghamshire who smashed frames, they weren't weaving frames, they were actually knitting frames. And the reason they were smashing them was because these people were making stockings and the income that they were able to draw from this was so marginal that if the machines came in they were threatening this already very marginalized income that they had and so the

phrase poor as a stocking girl was actually common at that time so we're talking about as a stocking girl stockinger somebody who makes stockings right okay sorry carry on no, carry on. No, not at all. So, and yes, and so they smashed these mechanised knitting frames because they were just such an incredible threat to their livelihood. And in fact, Lord Byron, when he goes to give his maiden speech in the House of Lords, it is about these knitters, these professional

male knitters that he speaks and he tries to protect and says that the reason they've done this is to protect their own livelihoods and their families. Well, there's no doubt that's a real slice of history about which I knew nothing. We can track women's lives, actually, to a degree, through knitting, can't we?

Absolutely. So, particularly historically speaking, when literacy rates were a lot lower than they are today, when you have a knitted item, it allows you to have that communion with the past, with the person who made it, however long ago that was. I mean, Britain's oldest surviving needle-made fabric comes from the 10th century. And although we don't know the individual who made it, we can see the actual output of their hands from that.

Also, something I found whilst I was doing my research is that people have a lot of stories related to the knitters in their own family. So people would see me knitting in public. They'd come over. They'd tell me about a grandmother, a sister, a wife. And suddenly we'd be bringing these people to life by talking about them. So it's a really powerful tool, actually. I do. I love the fact that it's a craft that inspires conversations

and takes people back into their own family histories. That's brilliant. It seems a shame to ask you about your knitted bikini, but I am going to ask you about it. Tell me the story. So when I was doing my research, people who were born and growing up in the 40s, 50s and 60s kept telling me about these knitted swimwear

that they had made by their family members and how itchy it was and how saggy it was. Oh, the thought of it. Sorry. No, I was just thinking about it. Carry on. And so I thought, well, as a child of the 1980s, I haven't had this cultural experience. So I set about making myself a bikini.

And as part of my research, I discovered that there was a huge, huge industry in the Scottish borders of making underwear and swimwear knitted on machines. And so I thought, well, this is brilliant. I can, A, have this cultural experience of my own hand-knitted bikini, and I can also tap into this history,

which employed thousands of people from the beginning of the 19th century all the way through to the mid and even to the late 20th century. So I made a bikini from yarn spun in the borders, and I tested it in Northumberland. Sorry, you got into the sea in a knitted bikini from yarn spun in the borders and I tested it in Northumberland. Sorry you got into the sea. I got into the sea. Knitted bikini. And I'm very very relieved to say that it stayed put. It was a bit like a wetsuit in that it gradually kind of took on water but that actually kept me

very warm because wool can absorb up to 30% of its own weight in water before it stops losing any of its insulating capacity. Oh, really? I'll never need to know that. It's actually a really good choice. And in fact, whatever you wear when you go swimming, providing you wear something, is likely to be knitted anyway. It's just knitted from man-made fibres and knitted on machines. But there's nothing like knitted fabric for following the curve of your body absolutely perfectly. So, yeah, we all wear knitted swimwear. We just don't think of it like that. I think people can see on our website and on social media the knitted bikini.

No one in Britain needs to see me in a knitted one piece. It really nobody nobody needs to see that ever. Oh, no, I'm not sure that's true. I'm not going to let you go without mentioning pussy hats. So many of the listeners, I'm not going to let you go without mentioning pussy hats. So many of the listeners, I'm sure, will know that the pussy hat was developed in California by a woman called Kat Coyle at the Little Knittery. And it was developed specifically in response to the election people to wear at the women's marches in washington and all over the world in protest against trump's racist viewpoint and policies and people it's a brilliant thing because it's visible all pussy hats are handmade and you can't

buy them and it means that people who weren't able to physically go to the marches themselves were still able to register their political point of view by making them and sending them to people to wear at the marches. So it's an incredibly potent symbol. And of course the name, pussy hat with the little ears at the top, echoing some of Donald Trump's less savoury remarks about women. And it's by far and away not the only kind of knitted, handmade symbol that has real political power. That was the writer

Esther Rutter and her book is called This Golden Fleece. Now to your thoughts on what you heard. James says political hyperbolic claim of the week from Annalise Dodds of the Labour Party. I think we could negotiate a better deal frankly within a couple of days. It's always easy, says James, to promise when you're in opposition. Another listener, just listening to Annalise Dodds explaining how she's going to steal my hard-earned income and wreck my company, which will end the income for nearly 100 other people. I think socialism is utterly worthless. From Nigel, nice to hear some sense from Annalise Dodds. If France is more productive than us, why can't we try it this shorter working week?

Thank you, Nigel. Jules says, it's really easy and I'm not even a Labour voter. This is Labour's policy on Brexit. They'll give us a referendum based on a choice between the best deal available and remain. The party will accept and implement the result, which will be possible this time as both options are clear. There we are. Thank you for that, Jules. And Anita.

I'm just fed up with the BBC saying that Labour doesn't have a clear policy on Brexit. They do. It will be decided by the people in another referendum. Jeremy Corbyn is very popular. He was elected twice by Labour supporters. I, for one, I'm excited about politics for the first time in my life. I'm now 61 and I'm excited because of his policies.

He's a Democrat and will accept the country's decision. How else do you suggest Labour sort out this issue which has split the country in two? Not taking sides is a sensible and democratic stance. Yes, I understand why you might come to that view, Anita. Of course, it's not one that's necessarily easy to sell on the doorstep in an election campaign in two and a half minutes in pouring rain

to a woman who's already got other things on her mind. But yes, OK, I know plenty of people will share your view. Yvonne says, this is about music and dementia i'm so enjoying um those features that we're putting out this week i hope you are as well yvonne says my ukulele teacher andy does gigs in care homes and i've been to a couple with him and honestly the results are amazing the audience reacts with smiles singing along there's a bit of heckling and even a few getting up to dance they remember the words of songs they haven't heard for years and they clap along and the happy mood lasts long after the gig is over music is so important as a therapy it's excellent it's becoming more widely recognized in terms of helping people

with dementia. And this is from Kate, putting a rather different point of view, which, by the way, Kate, I hope you're listening, we will cover later this week on the programme. But Kate says, do take care in implying that music always has beneficial effects for everybody with Alzheimer's disease. I realise this is the Alzheimer's Society view and an approach that they're pushing, but my mum is 82 and she's five years into her diagnosis, a lover of classical music all her life.

She can now not listen to any music at all without extreme grief and distress. One's Now Dead that she associates with various favourite pieces of music and her distress seems to be linked to her inability to process, understand and manage the emotion that music evokes for her. I'm really glad you made that point Kate but as I say we are covering that aspect of this. And Joanna says I've been songwriting with dementia sufferers at Opera North Dementia Cafe this very month. They have been coming up with amazing lyrics. I'm happy to send some examples of our songs sung by the groups if you'd like to hear them. They are amazing. Well, I think we would like to hear them, Joanna. So if you can do that, that would be great. Now on to the conversation with Jenny Joseph. Sophia says,

I'm listening to Jenny and she is hitting the nail literally on the head thank you for giving her a platform BAME women's voice matters Wendy says what about the hostile environment put in place by Theresa May's government that means if you're not white or you don't have a so-called English accent then you're likely to be challenged about your eligibility to free health care here, and that is a barrier to women accessing services. Also, many migrant women here do not have eligibility for free health care. For them, maternity care can cost thousands, which they will not be able to pay.

From Dorothy, I'm listening to Jenny and feeling her grace and her patience as she talks about the impact of being black for women using midwifery services. I worked as a midwife for 20 years in the NHS. I'm a white middle class woman and it was easier to progress my career in the NHS. I wonder if that has changed in the years since I left. Dorothy, I should say in the interest of transparency that I am on an NHS board. I'm a non-executive director of an NHS trust. And I can tell you, it hasn't really changed, but it is now beginning to be recognised as an issue that needs to be tackled. And from Angela, why do BAME women have such dreadful health outcomes in maternity? It's racism, pure and simple. Nothing genetic, just racism.

Wake up, folks, and address it head on. That's Angela. Well, we're starting to, I hope. Thank you to everybody who's contacted us today. Jenny is here with the programme tomorrow, and amongst other things, she's talking about how you get your children interested in learning a musical instrument

and taking up music. I find quantum mechanics confusing today. Well, we hope you've enjoyed that podcast. I don't know why, actually. I don't even know what the podcast was. This whole thing has been recorded in the 1940s. But anyway, if you didn't enjoy that podcast, another podcast you can also not enjoy

is the one that I do with Professor Brian Cox, The Infinite Monkey Cage. There are well over 100 of them now. We cover all scientific subjects, from dreams to dinosaurs to the end of the universe. We even did quantum gravity and the end of the universe at the Glastonbury Festival. And ravens. We did one on ravens.

And there was a raven. We actually had a live raven that outstared you. And I think even the radio listeners, or the podcast listeners, you have to say now, Watch radio! Watch radio! Look, it's on BBC Sounds as well, and that's enough, isn, you have to say now, watch radio, watch radio. Look, it's on BBC Sounds as well, and that's enough, isn't it? Just say that. It's on BBC Sounds. Download them on BBC Sounds, all of them.

They're fantastic. And, I mean, everything's brilliant, isn't it? Is it really? Well, I don't know. That cat may be as dead as a rat You can wage in the infinite monkey cage. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.