Woman's Hour - Holly Walsh on Amandaland, novelist Ilona Bannister, Greenlandic mothers in Denmark

Episode Date: May 8, 2026

Motherland spin-off Amandaland is back for a second series, starring Lucy Punch as Amanda and Joanna Lumley as her frosty mum Felicity. Nuala McGovern talks to the show’s award-winning writer and co-creator Holly Walsh about what’s in store for the SoHa crew second time around, as Amanda navigates life as a single mum of teenagers, juggling online influencing and her ‘co-lab’ with her dreams of moving up in the world. A review into the death of 21‑year‑old showjumper Katie Simpson has found 'institutional misogyny' and 'systemic failures' within the Police Service of Northern Ireland. The review, commissioned by the Department of Justice and released yesterday, found that not one officer seriously considered abuse or coercive control during the initial investigation. Katie died six days after being admitted to hospital in in 2020 and her death was initially treated as suicide. The PSNI has acknowledged the review and apologised to Katie's family. Nuala is joined by Allison Morris, Crime Correspondent at the Belfast Telegraph who's been following the case.What if the next five minutes were your last? That’s the question the American born author Ilona Bannister wants us to answer in her latest novel Five. Set on a train station platform we meet five strangers: a child, a mother, a businessman, an old woman and a gambler. Unbeknownst to them they are facing a countdown where in just five minutes one of them will die. Ilona tells Nuala what drew her to this idea. A case in Denmark is prompting public debate and urgent questions about child protection practices and the treatment of Greenlandic people. The case centres on a Greenlandic mother, Keira Alexandra Kronvold, whose newborn daughter was taken into care just two hours after birth in 2024, following the use of controversial psychometric assessments known as FKU tests. Critics say these tests, conducted in Danish and based on culturally specific assumptions, have disproportionately led to Greenlandic children being removed from their families. Her case has now reached the Danish high court, with a decision due imminently, and now the United Nations has intervened. Joining Nuala to discuss are Miranda Bryant, the Guardian’s Nordic correspondent, and Tillie Martinussen, a former MP in Greenland from the Cooperation Party.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, this is Newellamogarine, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Amanda Land is back on our screens this evening. We can thank my guest and creative force Holly Walsh for the return of that much-love TV show. And why do we like excruciating comedy just so much? We're going to discuss all of that. Also today, we'll hear about Greenlandic families living on the Danish mainland, who are fighting to get their children returned to them,

after they were removed by social services using controversial parental competency tests. We'll discuss the details of that as well. We'll also meet Eleona Bannister, American lawyer turned author, whose observations of life in the UK is woven into a latest novel, which is called Five. It's a thriller with a countdown that kept me at the edge of my seat. Now, there are mother-son relationships at the heart of this book.

In fact, Alona says daughters will only understand their mothers and that particular relationship when they become a mother to a son themselves. So over to you. Did that happen? Was there some great understanding that did occur? What was it? And also, how do you understand

your mother's relationship with your brother compared to her relationship to you, thinking that you are a sister in that? Or perhaps you are the brother that's listening in and want to chime in too? Also, what about your relationship with your son compared to your daughter. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media where at BBC Women's Are or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0-3700-100-400-44. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. But I want to begin with a review into the death of the 21-year-old showjumper Katie Simpson. It has found institutional misogyny and systemic failures within the police service of Northern Ireland, the PSNI. The review commissioned by the Department of Justice and released yesterday

found that not one officer seriously considered abuse or coercive control during the initial investigation. Katie died six days after being admitted to hospital in 2020. Her death was initially treated as suicide. The show jumping trainer, Jonathan Cresswell, was later charged with Katie's murder. But he took his own life one day after the trial began. That was in 2024. The PSNI has acknowledged the review.

and apologise to Katie's family. But I want to speak more about this case to Alison Morris. She's the crime correspondent at the Belfast Telegraph. Welcome back to Women's Hour, Alison. Good to have you with us. You've been following this for a long time. Can you explain more background to the case and also Katie's involvement with Jonathan?

Yeah, so Katie was a show jumper and Cresswell was a horse trainer. He was in a relationship with Katie's sister, Christina, and Katie was living with the couple and their children at the time of her death. She had been living with them for quite some time since she was about 10 or 11, and it's believed that the abusive relationship

between Cresswell began then. He was coercive to Katie. He not just sexually and physically exploited her. He also was financially exploiting her. She was working at sometimes 10 and 12 hours at a time in the yard with the horses. He was keeping her wages. He was just controlling every single aspect of her life.

And the report states that increasingly over those years, Katie was shown up at accident and emergency departments with increasingly more serious injuries. And at no stage did anyone red flag those are referred to social services. They were always just passed off as injuries that she had sustained from falling from a horse. And on a lot of those occasions, he accompanied her to N.E and never left her side so she could never speak freely to the hospital staff. And as I mentioned, her death was initially treated as suicide.

side, but what prompted the Department of Justice to call for a review to be carried out? Well, it seems looking at the review, it's almost impossible to understand why it was treated as suicide. What happened on the day that Chris Will had, the day before, he had found out that Katie had been with a boyfriend, someone who actually genuinely heard about her. This had sent him spiraling into a rage. He had picked her up from a horse show, and he had stopped several occasions on the way home to assault and rape. Katie before reaching the house where he spent most of the night

doing the same thing until she was dead the next morning or just clinging to life. He rang 9-99 and then put her into the passenger seat of her own car and started driving towards the ambulance and when police stopped police came along with the ambulance and told him to follow behind them. The report states he should have been

detained at this stage. The car should have been seized and it should have been treated as a crime until he could prove his version of events was true. Instead it was just accepted. He didn't follow the ambulance. He went home and had a shorn changed his clothes and then arrived at the hospital. Katie was covered in bruises. Her arms, her legs. When a nurse went to insert a catheter, she was bleeding. She noticed that there was trauma. Her underwear was bloodstained and by the way, that's all she was wearing at this

stage. And it was bagged up but never examined. No one thought to speak to anyone but Cresswell and his version of Vents was the only one the police listened to. It is very distressing details that we are hearing. And I know it is necessary to understand. understand why some of these issues should have been followed up and what we're realising now. I do want to let people know if you've been affected by any of the issues that we are discussing, there are links to the BBC Action Line for help and support. Yesterday, the Justice Minister Naomi Long, she said the report made for uncomfortable reading, that it's set out in stark and uncompromising detail, what went wrong.

Institutional misogyny, systemic failures, is how the case was dealt with according to this review. Can you explain a little bit more how you understand some of those comments? Yeah, a lot of these are very similar issues that arose after the murder of Everard when there was a look at the Metropolitan Police

and looked at that very institutional misogyny. So the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman looked into this case and why the police fail so badly. Among the officers they interviewed, one described Cresswell is a bit of a bad boy. The other one says, oh, it's just a bit of a philander. And at no stage did they realise that that kind of language diminished the experience. And by the way, at this stage, Creswell was already a convicted domestic abuser.

His former partner, Abigail Lyle, who very bravely waved her anonymity and spoke out, he had went to prison for his attacks on her. And when he was released from prison, that equestrian world, that horsey set through him a party to welcome him home, Abigail Lyle had to move to England to train because she was victim shamed within that world because he was held up with some sort of hero. The police seemed to play along with this idea that this man was just a philander and all these women were just jealous of each other and this is why Katie had attempted to take her own life. It was a shocking. I think that one of the things that stood out from the report said that there was a complete lack of investigative

curiosity by police. They just accepted this version of events and there were whistleblowers. There were people who repeatedly tried to say this is not as it seems. There is one line that stands out. It said police in action rendered her Katie invisible in her own murder and allowed Cresswell to maintain control even after her death.

It's quite shocking. It is because Cady's lying in an intensive car on life support. Creswell's in the room with her. We know he shouldn't have been. Her mother was her next of kin. he is the person speaking to police and she is laying there with the signs of her murder and assault all over her body and no one is paying any attention

there was no pictures taken of those injuries there was no pictures taken of Katie until the pathologist carried out the post-mortem over a week later by which stage most of those would have faded anyway there was no attempt to make the house where he claimed he found her crime scene to make the car crime scene to seize her phone or his

in fact her sister one of her sisters states in that report that four months after her murder, she noticed that Katie had left the family group chat. And she thought it was this was police who were going through her phone looking for evidence. The police hadn't even seized her phone, nor had they attempted to. This was Cresswell, who still had possession of Katie's phone at this stage. What has the response been from the family to the findings? Well, the family have welcomed the fact that so many people have spoken to the review and that is to be

welcomed. They have accepted that there will never be justice for Katie, but also what the review you find is they identified 37 other victims of Cresswell, the youngest, just a nine-year-old girl, and two other potential predators from within that equestrian world. And so you would hope there's changed. The PSNI have apologised, and I think they can do little else, but apologise. And there are also other departments who are being criticised as a result of this, the safeguarding, the Telf Trust, all of the people who let that abuse go on without red flagging it over the ears, despite the fact there were so many signs of abuse. I want to read the PSNI statement. This is a

is responding to the review assistant chief constable Davy Beck. He said we accept and welcome this review and accept the findings in full. The review makes clear that we missed opportunities. Warning signs were not fully recognised early enough and we did not listen to some of those who raised early concerns. Patterns of coercive control were not sufficiently understood or challenged. Investigative decisions did not always reflect the level of professional curiosity and rigor that should have been applied.

Since this case, we've strengthened training on coercive control. We've also increased emphasis on professional curiosity and an investigative mindset. I want to take this opportunity to appeal to anyone who believes they may have been a victim of Jonathan Cresswell or anyone else. I would urge victims to speak to us. We're here to listen, to help and to keep you safe. My understanding, there have been 16 recommendations put forward, mostly police-focused. What are they? Yeah, there are a number of recommendations and a lot focus around what you said, coercive peace in the training in relation to. to that. They're also in relation to

safeguarding. I was not aware until yesterday that despite the fact that you need to have access NI, as they call it, which is vetting to work with children, you do not need it if you're in the equestrian world. There's also a lot of recommendations in terms of the management of junior officers. Some of the officers involved in this at an early stage, I think one

was only six days out of six days into the job at the time. And so there's a lot of the recommendations are about overseeing those junior officers and someone taking responsibility or overall responsibility. for an investigation and we do hope that there's changed

and I would hate to think that this would stop anyone from coming forward in reporting abuse. You know, we need to know that there are people who are out there who are willing to listen

and the PSNI are attempting to try and change the right the wrongs. There can be cases that are tragedies but that are game changers in a way on how things are seen

within a certain environment. Do you think this is it? I do think it is. It's a sea change moment. It's highly uncomfortable reading for all of the departments involved. I have seen even change since then. So now when we do have a sudden death, sometimes it will just be that. It will be someone who has taken their own life. But we're finding that the police are maybe taken two or three days before they're saying what the death was. And that's to give them time

to actually properly look at what's happening and try and investigate it right. We do know that there are going to be oversight, put in charge of that equestrian world to make sure the children who are working with horses are working with people who are properly vetted and the health trusts are also going to be held a client. But there's also one of the recommendations to some of these officers who were under investigation

by the ombudsman for misconduct just retired during the investigation. That means they cleared off with their pension and they weren't able to be held a client. And so there's going to be steps put in place to stop that happening if officers are under investigation for misconduct. In the future. Yeah. Alison Morris, crime correspondent at the Belfast Telegraph.

Thanks very much for joining us this morning on Woman's Hour. 844, if you'd like to get in touch, asking for your experiences of being mother to a son, or maybe having a mother who treated a son differently to you, her daughter, 84844, if you'd like to get in touch. Now, today, seize the return of Motherland Spin on. of Amanda Land, which, after a hit,

huge Christmas special last year, is back on our screens for a second series. You can actually find it on iPlayer right now, but it's on the television tonight. The BBC comedy follows the escapades of Amanda, played by Lucy Punch. She is the motherland character, Mani Love to Hate.

She navigates teenage children and single motherhood. She's juggling her dreams of becoming an influencer with an aging mother, the exquisite Joanna Lumley, Let us begin with the flavour of what to expect as Amanda chats to her fellow schoolmums on the side of the football pitch. Hey. Hi. Hi.

Hi, guys. Wow, you look very fresh. I'm not wearing makeup. Some days. I don't. I just want to be my authentic self, you know. Full focus towards beneath the surface, not what's on it. You sure you're not wearing any makeup?

I'm not. I can see. It's nude makeup and which means nothing on. so just because you can see it doesn't mean it's there because it's not. Yeah, I'll rather you than me, babe, honestly. Without a lisa of mascara, my eyes look like gerbils' bumholes. Oh, same. Well, not exactly.

It's a personal choice, I suppose, which I'm all about. Free will. I'm actually reading 1984 at the moment. Again, George Orwell, I just love the social satire as seen in his allegorical novella Animal Farm, which I've also read. Well, if you like those, Amanda, I recommend Handmaid's Tale. Oh, okay. Yeah, sure. I'll check that out. Yeah. Love anything handmade.

Joining me is the show's award-winning writer and co-creator Holly Walsh. Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you for having me. How does it feel to hear that as round two is being released to the world? Yeah, the impossible second album. It's, you know what, when I listen to that, because it's a while since I listen. I've obviously seen every episode a trillion times, but I did, I just love, I love Lucy Punch. And I love Philippa Dunn and I love that whole combination of people. So it's just really fun with hearing their voices again. So we first met Amanda in Motherland as I mentioned.

That was about a decade ago. And she was the kind of character, maybe that people kind of love to hate. Everybody's met in Amanda. That was one headline I read when talking about her, perhaps at the school gates. But do you think that audiences have changed their relationship with her? Yeah, because she has revealed herself as being deeply unhappy. And I think if the great British public love one thing, it's watching beautiful, successful people suffer.

So we've really locked in on that. So I suppose there's a vulnerability there. And she does have kind of the outsider dynamic going on that perhaps people can relate to. I think it is the feeling, I think even though she seems like she's got everything sorted, she doesn't and I think that is what everybody understands

is we all going through our own version of Amanda whether it be reinventing ourselves in middle age or just trying to fit in and find your crew I think everybody gets the same has the same experience

I like that idea reinventing in middle age because middle age is mentioned I can't remember it was episode one or two but it comes up in the series almost as a dirty she's in denial about it though she would never admit she was middle age she thinks of herself as a similar age to her teenage daughter she but she is a perpetual uh teenager really that's

every time we were sort of talking about what amanda does we were saying whatever her teenager is going through she is sort of going through a version of that herself so it's the awkward teenager in her even though definitely middle age as she has the teenager and she also has her mother, Joanna Lumley, who is Felicity. And I suppose there's kind of questions raised about will she need to care a little bit more for her ageing mother? Is it difficult to make that funny? Well, she's the classic sandwich generation,

although I don't think she eats any carbs, so she's not got the bread in it. She's a naked sandwich. Okay. But she is stuck between, yeah, looking after her own children and also looking after her mother, who is gradually, I think, beginning to understand that she's not as independent and, or come to terms with rather than understand the fact that she's not as independent and, you know,

carefree as she once was and maybe needs a bit more help from her, from people who love her, which is her daughter. And so life moves on. Now, I've read that you sit in cafes and listening on other people's conversations and write it down word for words. Yes, verbatim. So don't say anything you don't want to. If you see me in a cafe, I'll look like I've got my headphones in, but actually I'm just listening on everyone else's conversations.

I'm a terrible, terrible thief. Is there a particular place that you find is best to do that? Well, luckily I live in Southeast London, which has its fair share of pretentious cafes. And I mean that with great love. I love personally spending six pounds on a cup of coffee. So I sit there and justify my... justify my expenses to my, yeah.

Could that be, because I'm perhaps ahead of others, I say smugly, in a Mandelaan preparing for this interview, but there is a coffee shop, Banta Black, that makes an appearance. Is that plucked from real life? I think, you know what, I think anyone who watches it, we did go around taking photos of loads of cafes. It's the sort of plywood minimalist, Nordic. lots of house plants, you know, a very large noisy coffee machine.

I think there's a type. I think everywhere in Britain now has experienced a version of that. Do you talk about, you know, don't say anything. It might be written down and used in an episode against you. But do you think people hold back from sharing their stories with you? You know what? It's funny you say that because I wonder if people, do and I don't realize it.

I think you're pretty astute. I think you'd pick up on it. I wonder if people keep back terrible stories about their teenagers from me now. But to be fair, people do send me great screen grabs of school and street WhatsApp groups with conversations that have gone on over the years. So I've got a good source of friends who will reveal to me, which is great because there are some brilliant arguments going on in middle class Britain. that we can just steal for our show.

You know, you, of course, are so immersed in comedy. You began your comedy career in stand-up. Do you miss it at all? No. A resounding, no. I love staying at home in the evenings. No, I don't, I miss, I sometimes miss, if I think of a joke, I'd like to go and see if it worked.

I miss the kind of nerdiness of it. I like trying out jokes and I also being a writer, I miss having the opportunity. opportunity to try stuff out and see if there's a, if other people laugh. Because sometimes being a writer can be really lonely. And you're writing stuff down thinking, is anyone going to laugh at this? Luckily, I've got a team. I'm very much a collaborator on Amanda Lawn. So we've got a really good team of writers. And so we laugh at each other and see if we can make each other, we can top each other and add extra jokes to it. So it's very collaborative. And I was just struck at the beginning,

you were also saying, you know, somebody who's got it all together. British public don't like anything better than having a lot of that. Do you think, so it's kind of excruciating comedy is the way I would describe. And I think my first introduction to that sort of, hiding behind the sofa moment was curb your enthusiasm. It's the best. I couldn't watch it. Really?

I used to watch this is going back in the day. Ed Sopranos followed by that. But, you know, there used to be such a huge gap between US American and UK comedy. And I wonder, do you know, do you? think that's still there or has it just kind of intersected in a way? No, I think there's still very much a sort of British comedy thing going on and I think that's what I mean I would say this because we're on the BBC but I think that's where the BBC is really great in that it's really championing that sort of British voice as it were in all its different you know, iterations

iterations exactly but I think yeah I think there is something still I think we still have a slightly different sense of humor to the Americans. Having said that, some of the best shows I've watched recently have been American sitcoms and shows. What do you love? I love hacks. Have you watched that? Yes, I do love it. It's excellent. Yes.

But again, I love that because it's too messy women intergenerational, lots of, like, just I love seeing women be stupid and big slapstick moments and just slightly humiliating themselves. So I'm all aboard for those sort of shows. And with the... How do you create... that excruciating feeling. You know, the kind of pull your cushion up in front of your face and be kind of watching with one eye closed. Well, with Amanda, what we always do is we always say

she's saying one thing, but it means the exact opposite. So if she says everything's fine, it's definitely not fine. And she's a gift in terms of comedy for that because you can really mind that sort of opposite, you know, say one thing, me and the other. So I think also it's just we're really specific with what we're trying to take the Mickey out of And I think if you even if you don't know that exact reference It's relatable and also being the mum of a teenager

You're going to get a lot of side eye and eye rolling So that's going to be excruciating anyway So it's a combination of all those things And for you, because you are a parent Yes But you've kind of been on a slightly different track to Amanda You're a few years behind Yeah I'm completely absent

I think when I was writing Amandaland, when we were writing Motherland, I think I had a baby. Then coming into Amandaland, which we're now writing about teenagers, my children are very much in the motherland primary school world. Which is sort of a shame because sometimes things happen and I think, oh, this would be great to do a motherland. You have to keep writing it down though. I do keep writing it down. Yeah. Yeah. I'm out of sync, but it's all. Maybe not having teenagers is quite a good thing because I'm slightly separated from it.

So I'm able to write because we never want to write something that you only get if you've got children. We really wanted to write. What we always talked about with Motherland was that it was a workplace comedy. And even if you know nothing about, say, parenting, you're going to kind of get in the same way that you watch Cheers. You may never have worked in a bar, but you're going to get the gist of what's happening. So it's very much that workplace feeling. It's just very specific to that type of work. And I think with the Mandaland part of the work.

is really on the sidelines of a football page. Yeah, literally. Talk to me a little bit more about how that particular environment is conducive to your writing. Well, when we had Motherland, it was really helpful having school gates because you always had points in the show where everybody came together and they could sort of dissect or set up the next whatever was happening. You had big group moments where everyone could chat. And then obviously the big thing about having teenagers is that there just isn't that

communal place. There's no school gates community. You literally send your children off school. You have no idea what they do all day and then they come home. And so we needed to kind of find that communal place where everybody sat and met. And so, or stood and talked. And so the

sidelines of the football pitch became the sort of school gates. It's an interesting one because you're kind of standing shoulder to shoulder but maybe not really in the sense of standing shoulder to shoulder. I want to go back to Christmas

and the special you had. It was a huge hit. The most watched comedy episode off last year. Joanna Lumley was with her Abfab co-star, Jennifer Saunders, playing sisters. I mean, that's quite something to take in. The most watched comedy episode. I mean, we were thrilled.

Honestly, we are just a bunch of people who sit in a room making stupid jokes and writing them down. Tell me what it's like being in that room. It's really good fun. We're really lucky because we've got, at the moment, well, we've got Larry Rickard, who people might know from Ghosts. He plays the prehistoric man, Robin, in Ghosts, and also the man with no head. And then we've got Helen Serafinoitz, who is a genius. She's been on the show since we started in Motherland. We all created Motherland together, so she's seen the whole journey. And she is genuinely got some of the best stories. many good stories. Some of them are so insane. You can't even put them on television because people would go, that's not real. And you're like, it is real. But she's a gift for really good stories. And then we have, what we often do is get a room of parents together for a couple of days. And then we all just sit in the room and get them to tell us all their stories. And this is a real cross-section of people

from all our different parts of our lives, most of which have never sat in a writer's room before. but they're really fun days because you start to feel like the areas that everybody you can relate to and then you're like, okay, there's something in this. If we do a storyline about that, then I think a lot of people will get it. It could also be like a massive therapy session. It is a therapy session, yeah. It's genuinely a therapy session. I think we probably should have a trained therapist in the room.

But, you know, we're not going to stand that. Comedy writer next best thing. But, you know, you hint at something there. We won't go into, we won't do any spoilers for the series. but it must be difficult at times to know where to draw the line on what to include or what not to include, particularly when it comes to teenagers, you know, if we talk about some of the challenging issues that we often talk about in this program that they're up against, whether it's, I don't know, their self-image or stuff online or anxiety, whatever it might be. Because you do delve into those topics.

Yes. But in a way, I suppose, that people can understand them, but also perhaps be able to... Yeah, and it is difficult because being a teenager is hard. And I was thinking, we were talking about it the other day saying that a lot of the storylines are evergreen in that a lot of what we write about is stuff that happened to us as teenagers, because that experience of being a teenager is everybody goes through it and it's the same... Laughing at teachers or whatever might be. We all have the same sort of stories. I do think nowadays this added social media thing adds a massive huge turbocharged craziness to it all.

So what we always try and do is do we always want it to be funny. So if it is touching on something that is, you know, a difficult subject, that's okay. As long as we can find a really funny angle for it and doesn't make anyone feel like we're laughing at the subject, rather that we are trying to like investigate it through humour. So we try and be really, we think long and hard about if we're going to do something that's a slightly difficult subject, how are we going to do it in a relatable and sort of a way that people will find a way into without feeling like we were taking the Mickey, which I think is why teenagers, you know, a lot of teenagers watch it, but I think maybe teenagers watch it because they just see their mum in Amanda and Anne and that generation of mothers. And the interactions between them. Of course as well. You talk about second album vibes.

How's the second album feeling now? Well, it goes out today. So we shall see. I will not be watching it this evening because I cannot, I can't watch it. Can you not? No, I find it. I have to like, I have to just sort of go out. I think I might go off and do some tapestry or something because I'm very...

Do some? Tapestry. I'm really into tapestries. I think I might sit alone and do some tapestries this evening rather than watch it. When I say, what are you working on, Holly Walsh? I wasn't thinking that. But tell me what are you working on tapestry-wise? I do a lot of portraits of people's pets.

I sew a lot of portraits of people's pets. Like dogs, cats? Yeah, you know what? It's because I am terrible at meditating or doing anything remotely, sort of self-carey for my mind. Yes, sure. But I find the sort of repetitiveness of doing a tapestry, it's just colouring in with wool,

but I find it so therapeutic that it just chills my brain out a bit. And current work? Doing a portrait of a cat. I'll keep you pasted. I'll send you a picture. Thank you very much. I'll do a portrait of you now. You know, ginger.

Holly Walsh, thank you so much for joining us. I'll let everyone know. Again, Amanda Land, Series 2 arrives. It's already there on BBC iPare, but airing tonight, BBC 1, 9pm. Holly won't be watching, but you probably will. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in. about sons, daughters, your mother's relationship to your brother compared to you.

I'm going to get to those in just a few minutes. But I want to first tell you about a case in Denmark that is prompting public debate and urging questions about child protection practices and the treatment of Greenlandic people who live in Denmark. So this case centres on a Greenlandic woman. Her name is Kira Alexander Cronvold, whose newborn daughter was taken into care just two hours after her birth in 2020. It was following the use of controversial psychometric assessments known as FKU tests. Critics say these tests conducted in Danish and based on culturally specific assumptions have disproportionately led to Greenlandic children being removed from their parents.

Kronvold's case sparked widespread outrage and prompted Denmark to ban the use of these tests for Greenlandic families in 2025. But more than a year on, she is still Kira separated from her child cam. with only limited supervised contact. Her case has now reached the Danish High Court with a decision due imminently, and now the UN has also intervened. I spoke to Miranda Bryant, the Guardian's Nordic correspondent,

who's been following the story closely, and Tilly Martin Newsen, a former MP in Greenland from the Cooperation Party. I began by asking Miranda to tell us more about the banned tests and why they are controversial. So the FQU tests or parenting competency tests are something that have been going going on for a long time in Denmark.

So when social services see a cause to intervene with a family, parents and a children, they might do a FKU test. But the problem with the FKU test is that it's culturally specific and has been found to be unsuitable to be used on people with Greenlandic backgrounds. Despite this, warnings that have been made for years and years about it, they were finally banned last May and since then a new system has come into place with a body called Visu which is supposed to be more culturally sensitive to Greenlandic people. However, old results are still being used. Lawyers say the new system is unsuitable and seemingly the vast majority of the women who are separated from their children using FKU tests.

remain separated from their children still. Let me bring you in here, Tilly. Research from the Danish Centre for Social Research suggests that Greenlandic parents in Denmark are 5.6 times more likely to have their children taken into care than Danish parents. How do you understand it of how it got to that point? I mean, first and foremost,

there is systemic racism that we're looking at here, course, there is also difficulties understanding each other's cultures, I think, as well as the language barrier, which has been a huge, significant part of this. People who are very eloquent in Greenlandic will struggle answering or understanding context that the language in Danish, and they don't have an interpreter oftentimes, and they don't know the ramifications when there's, if you say a sentence like, how do you take care of your child, they might answer very straightforward. We take care of our child together with my parents, for example, if it's a young mother, and my parents are great people. And then a Danish caseworker might interpret that as,

okay, so you can't take care of the child alone, but will not ask that directly. They might ask, okay, so your parents are involved with this, are you living with them? And a young mother or a couple may say, yes, it's very common in Greenland to live together for more generations, especially especially when there's a new child on the way, which is always celebrated by all generations in the family. And the Danish caseworker might interpret that so you're not able to take care of yourself when it's actually a choice. So there's so many things along the way culturally, language-wise,

and understanding the language, even though you speak Danish, actually. In Greenlandic, for example, just to clarify, we do not have a sarcasm and we do not have irony. We don't use that in Greenlandic. So Greenlandic is a very straightforward, direct language, and it's describing language more than it's something with, like, subtext and everything. If you want to say something, you say directly, otherwise you shut up, basically, in Greenlandic. So there are so many pitfalls for the families there.

And the Danish caseworkers don't have any training in cultural clues. They don't have any understanding of how it's different. I mean, I'm a very well working Greenlandic person who has been living in Denmark for a long time. My father's Danish too. And I have been while I was studying and everything living in Denmark. And I just went to one of the municipalities here to get a passport yesterday. And the jokes that I was making, the caseworker who were issuing my passport just didn't get. I mean, that's how far we are from each other.

And I have the Danish culture under my skin. So it's a big, big problem. So it's fascinating, isn't it? how things can be interpreted in such a different way. But coming back, Miranda, to this particular story that we're going to delve into. The UN has intervened in this particular story. Tell me a little bit about how.

Yes, so the UN came across Kira Alexander Cronvold's case, who is a Greenlandic woman living in Denmark, and her daughter, Zami, was removed from her two hours. after giving birth in hospital in November 2024. Now Zami is nearly 18 months old and still lives on the other side of town from Kira in Denmark with a Danish family. And Kira can only see her daughter in very short controlled periods of time. And the reason for this is because of old FKU tests that were done on her, which she and lawyers have said are faulty.

they have the wrong information on them and they've been used to separate her from her daughter. And the time she was given it just before Zami was born, she was told that the test was to see if she was civilized enough, was the words. So anyway, the UN have said that they have written to the Danish government now saying that the parenting competency test that we use on Kira and on other Greenlandic parents may amount to ethnic discrimination. So they've given the Danish government

until the end of May to respond. They haven't responded yet and they currently don't have a government. So they're still in coalition talks. Indeed. We did contact the Danish Ministry of Social Affairs and Housing. They said the Ministry of Social Affairs and Housing can confirm that the joint communication

from the three special rapporteurs from the UN has been received. Denmark is currently without a government and cannot respond to the inquiry at this time. But you have a friend, I understand Tilly, who went through the process that indeed Kira is going through and had her child removed for two years.

What did she tell you about that experience? I'm always cheering up while talking about it. Needless to say, that was one of the most traumatic things, the most traumatic thing that she has ever experienced. She's a very fit mother. she has her child, thank God, at home now. The trauma from being separated and being deemed unfit when you are fit, especially, but I think also when you're unfit in the manner that the Danish state has been doing to these women,

as you can hear secondhand, we get traumas too from hearing from them. I saw that one of the things that Kira went through was that the caseworker said that she wouldn't be able to make her child navigate the Danish. language and codes and the subtext culturally. And that was one of the reasons why the child was taken away, which is, of course, both ridiculous. And I think also a very colonialistic, white way of looking at it. And it's just a completely ridiculous and very racist foundation that they have been standing

on in Kira's case. But it's true for most of the others who have had their children taken away, too. So Tilly, you've said that all cases involving Greenlandic women should be re-evaluated. Yes. Do you think that will happen? It has to. That is what the ones from Greenland who were chosen for the Danish parliament, one of the things that is their key task to do after a government has been formed here in Denmark

is to make sure that that is happening. We would have to have interpreters. We would have to have someone with a cultural background to sit in on those cases and be advocates for the families. I think there's a lot of children that didn't have to be removed at all from home, not only the cases that we've heard about were brave enough to step forward to that trauma. But I mean, like every case has to be re-evalued. It really does. And I'm just thinking about that in a very practical way. Yes. In the sense that my understanding is a lot of these children would have been removed years ago. They've been living with Danish families for years. You've talked about

some of the challenges that there are between Danish and Greenlandic. Do you think is really feasible for those children to return home? Of course it is. I am half Danish and I am half Greenlandic and I've managed to merge those two cultures together very well. It is no problem at all. Of course it's feasible and I would hope that the families, the Danish families that have taken care of the kids while they were placed by the state would be cooperative

and work together with a Greenlandic family, and maybe they can come visit at some points. But I think that we would see if there was a proper evaluation, taking culture, taking language, taking the way the Greenlanders live into consideration, a large, large portions of those kids would go back. And of course, there will be adjustment problems for the children and the parents would have to explain.

I mean, there's going to be a lot of things. That's really what I'm thinking. about kind of the adjustment for the children. But hold that thought Tilly for a moment because I think Miranda wants to come in. Just to add on that point that many of the parents I've spoken to who remain separated or have been separated from their children,

their children have either are or have been suffering from mental health consequences of being separated from their parents. So many of the children are not necessarily in a good mental health state being separated. Yes. I want to return back to the test You mentioned Miranda, the Denmark, ban the tests. They have been replaced with a new system.

Visu. Do you think that's working? Tilly, I can see, is shaking her head. No, go ahead, Miranda. All the lawyers and campaigners I've spoken to have said that Vsu doesn't work. The system isn't set up appropriately. For example, I know that in Kira's case, she, via Visu, spoke to a psychologist,

but that psychologist may have had a greener. Greenlandic background but didn't speak Greenlandic. So she still had to do the test in a or the assessment in a language that wasn't her native language. A lot of people are calling for a reform of the system that VCU needs to be changed. Tilly, you shook your head saying no, VCU doesn't work. I'd be curious for your thoughts on that. But also how the debate over these tests sit alongside other scandals involving Greenlandic women there was forced contraception, forced adoption,

other historical abuses. Yes. No, the visa test doesn't work. And it seems like they're trying, like really grasping at straws and trying to do something that they can measure and then everyone would be satisfied. And you can't do it like that. You would have to have an old-fashioned caseworker

who has some experience. I mean, a lot of experience, being open-minded, going in there and then working together with Greenlandic people because the culture is very different, the language is very different. And of course, we're discussing all of those cases that has been against Greenlandic women that has been very much discriminated against. For example, with the IUDs, and a lot of these women had contraceptions put into them, into their bodies where they didn't know what they consented to or didn't consent at all.

And I know personally in my family, we have someone who had been unable to have children since then. And I mean, that's a long life without children that you will never have. And this has happened to numerous of the women. So there is a problem systematically, but especially for Greenlandic women, but also for Greenlandic men, I have to say, in Denmark with racism against Greenlandic people. And we have to address that to be able to move on. And with that, Tilly, the reason we're speaking about it is that Kira's case is in a number of courts, I understand, Miranda. What's at stake in these rulings?

The city court case that's happening, if the case rules in her favour, she could be reunited with the Zami. The High Court case on Friday is a little more about the principle of it. And although it's a big deal for Kira, it could also be a big case for many other families who are in this position because it would set a legal precedent. Tilly, what do you think it means if Kira wins her cases? First of all, I would say she would have to win the case. I mean, Denmark ratified the Indigenous People's Tata on Greenland some time ago. And it would mean the world for a lot of families. I mean, every day that we're talking about this,

instead of those children going home to their families, is that they, apart from their family. And it's just horrendous. I mean, those families, they need their children home. And do you think they will get them? I think they will. They have to. Tilly Martin Nussen, a former Greenland MP and Miranda Bryant from The Guardian, thanks to both of them.

I do want to bring you an update. This morning, the Danish Ministry for Social Affairs and Housing has responded to the UN's letter about the case, saying they're ready to engage constructively and proposing a meeting with the UN to review the framework for the recently established unit with expertise in Greenlandic language and cultural affairs. affairs. So we will continue following that story. Thanks for your messages coming in. One on Amanda Land says I loved season two episode one. I sat down at nine o'clock this morning to watch it as I couldn't wait any longer. I'm out of the pub quiz this evening. At least that's my excuse. Am I shallow? It's kind of to do with that episode, I can tell you. I'm glad you did nine and then you're

ready for Women's Hour at 10. Excellent. If you want to get in touch, 8-4-8-44 is one way to do it. Now, what if the next five minutes were your last? That is the question the author, Ilona Bannister, wants us to answer in her latest novel, Five. So the story takes us to a train station platform among five strangers, a child, a mother, a businessman, an older woman and a gambler. Unbeknownst to them, they're facing a countdown, where in just five minutes, one of them will die. Lona Bannister is a New Yorker who now lives in Brighton, was a US lawyer and a UK solicitor before she started writing fiction and she's in studio with me this morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me.

So tell us a little, this premise, five different stories linking to a five-minute countdown to someone's death. Where did this idea come from? Well, I had a bit of a lightning bolt moment, sort of one of those rare moments where an idea came to me and I thought, oh, that's it. I was on the top deck of a London double-decker bus trying to think about stories. I was watching people the way that I always do as a writer. And I thought, well, if I started speaking to every person on this bus about their life story, it would be so much better than any fiction you could write. People would say that's not believable, all of the things that people carry and survive,

their joys, their triumphs, their grief, their loss. It would be so much to write about. At the same time, in the background, there had been a very, tragic cycling accident near my home. A cyclist in the morning rush hour on the way into central London was killed on impact. And I was very moved by that because I knew the street where it had happened. And I was just thinking about that person and the last five minutes on the bike, passing that apartment block, passing that school, looking at that pub, what were they thinking about? Probably just their day ahead. And then suddenly it was over. And they had said

goodbye for the last time that morning and they didn't know it. And it just struck me that last five minutes when we're still in before and it's just about to be after. But we're in this space of time. And that we have no idea. And we have no idea. Yes, we go about rushing to things and trying to, I don't know, plan and organize even though really we have no control over any of it. It all happens awaiting the 706 to Victoria. I was actually reading your book, Leaving Victoria. Excellent. Why did you set the scene at a train station?

I am always intrigued by public places and the behavior of strangers in public spaces. It is fascinating. And a train platform, when you think about it, is actually a highly dangerous environment. We take it for granted. but many, many dangerous things could happen there. But we have a social contract with one another that we're going to behave in a certain way. And we trust that everyone, even though we don't know them,

are going to follow those rules. And I was just very intrigued about what might happen if we don't follow those rules. If someone begins misbehaving, how do you react? And I just find those reactions in that type of crisis moment to be a fascinating place to tell a story. Let us hear you reading a passage from your book. Great.

this is from the opening scene when the mother and child enter he loses his footing and the platform disappears underneath him he looks at his mother as he begins to fall he meets her eyes and in them he sees something he does not yet have the words to name it is not anger or fear

it is hesitation it would be easier if I lost him is the thought she thinks for a sliver of a moment a granule of time 39 hundredths of a second to be precise pause here for a moment. Please do not judge this mother for having this thought. Thoughts like these come to all mothers.

They are involuntary. Sometimes they appear precisely because they are the opposite of what the mother truly thinks. The mother's anxious, exhausted brain plays a sinister game with her. It makes her think that she will say and do things that she would never, ever say or do. So please do not think badly of this mother for having this thought in this moment. It is her thoughts that come after it. that should concern you. They'll say it's a shame if he falls, she thinks.

The next step she takes imperceptibly slower than the last. They'll say it was an accident, she thinks, reaching out, but not quite reaching him. Wow. So the scene you just read, it gives us an insight into some of these stories within the book, focusing on motherhood, as I was mentioning to my listeners. And what came across for me is the exhaustion that that mother Emma is experiencing with her child, Gideon. I think I'd even go as far as to say it's suffocating. Do you think we hear enough about how difficult motherhood can be?

No, not nearly enough. I always write, when I write about mothers and children, I think it is very important always to cast light on the more difficult stories. on the darker stories, some of the darker feelings that women are dealing with, particularly if they have children who have any kind of neurodivergence or any kind of emotional issues, particularly when they are very young and you're still trying to work those things out. I think it's very important to reflect to women that they are not alone in whatever challenges they may be facing, both in the shift in identity for them as mothers and as people, and also in not having all the answers

with how to deal with children, especially if their children are having a hard time in one way or another. So you're a parent to two boys. You're a New Yorker, but living in the UK. And I read it in an article where you described yourself as a neurotypical type A rule follower,

squarely in the box operator, former spelling bee champion and perpetual listmaker, and find yourself surrounded by your husband and children who are neurodiverse. That could be a different. difficult fit. How has it been rising to the challenge? Well, yes, all of those things are true. So my my sons are teenagers now. They both have ADHD and dyslexia in the process of diagnosis. We saw in my husband that he had many of the same traits and dealt with many of the same challenges.

I had to learn that in order to accommodate them and to help them to grow and to learn, I needed to change my way of being. And as a result, I became. a much more flexible person. I learned to think outside the box the way that they do. It really expanded my creativity. And it really expanded my empathy. And I really don't think that I would be writing the stories that I write about neurodivergence and difference and nonconformity

if I hadn't had this experience with them. So one of your characters, Luna, has a sharp tongue and she's ready to rebuke those who publicly disapprove of her neurodivergent child's actions that he may not be in full control of. And I was just wondering, as I read it, have you given any of those retorts to people who have tutted at your children? Because I read in the acknowledgement that you have that spirit of fighting to raise extraordinary children. Yes. It was important to me to cast light, particularly in that story of Sunny and Luna, to cast light on the impact of judgment from schools, from the medical system, from society, on neurodiverse families. that you may not understand what it is that you are seeing.

You may not understand a mother's or a parent's decisions, but the impact of judging it, particularly if you're looking at it negatively, is very long-lasting. And the consequences can be severe because they weigh on the children over time. And what we see in the character of Sunny is a person who has been trying and trying his hardest.

His mother has been defending him against a world that wasn't built for him. and the consequences of continuous judgment last a lifetime and lead him to some very difficult decisions and choices. And I just want to cast that light to perhaps expand understanding of what that feels like.

And so that is a relationship that you are reflecting. There are others as well between mothers and sons, as I mentioned to my listeners. And I was wondering, you know, did people feel that their mothers treated them differently as a woman or as a daughter, should I say,

than their son. There's a couple of messages. My eldest is a teenage boy, my youngest, a nine-year-old boy, two girls, 13 and 11 in between. I want to say I have quality relationships with each, some differences because of boy-girl differences, but equal in terms of respect, expectation and love. And then I think, I wonder if the girls see it like that. Maybe we'll chat about it over dinner tonight. Here's another. What is staggering is the difference in expectations around what brothers and sisters do as parents age. Still, my brothers are enlightened, feminist, in outlook, but I'm the one carrying the load for our ageing mum. And then I think my mum, who's a highly successful career woman, has the same expectation that I do more. Somehow my brother's careers and lives are prioritised. I'm single, no kids, I have a demanding job. I've no idea how

sandwich generation women cope. And this dynamic around caring goes on, being modelled to daughters and sons. Ah! And there's a few messages like that, I should say as well. So very interesting to read people's experiences.

I read that you like to write stories about otherness. And I just have a few seconds for this. But will we have that in your next book? Otherness. Yes. I always am attracted to those stories. And I think that in otherness, we find the most humanity. So yes, absolutely, that will always be a theme for me, I think.

Is there anything else? Would you give us another nugget of where you might be going? I'm going to continue, hopefully, in this thriller suspense space. It feels like a place where I have found a home and I'm grateful to readers for allowing me to do something a little different with a thriller and still reading it and letting me have a little room in the genre. I think, well, I'm always a bit wary on train station platforms anyway.

I think that's the New Yorker after living in New York as well. I was taking a step back. But I definitely will after reading her book 5. That's Alona Bannister, a real thriller. Thank you so much for coming in to join us. Do join Anita tomorrow. Influencer content is putting some women off using hormonal contraception. They'll have a discussion on that.

That's all for today's women's hour. Join us again next time. If you've got a scrolling problem, then this is the podcast for you. It's called Top Comment with me Matt Shea. And me, Marianna Spring. We both investigate social media for a living. Whether it's disinformation, conspiracy theories, internet culture, memes. We're going to be getting behind the stuff that is popping up on your feed on this podcast.

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