Woman's Hour - Hollyoaks star Sarah Jayne Dunn, the military and women, Russia advisor Fiona Hill, New induction guidelines

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

The Defence Secretary Ben Wallace, has called for an extraordinary meeting today of senior army leaders. Concerns about the culture of the military are on the agenda, in particular towards women. Mr Wallace has said he will raise the case of Agnes Wanjiru, a Kenyan woman who died in 2012, last seen in the company of two British soldiers. Emma talks to journalist Hannah Al-Othman and Emma Norton, director of the Centre for Military Justice.Fiona Hill was the top Russia advisor in the Trump administration. The daughter of a coal miner and midwife, she grew up in Bishop Auckland in the 60s, moving to the U.S. to escape the class and accent discrimination she faced in the UK. She has written about her experiences in a new memoir, There Is Nothing For You Here: Finding Opportunity In The 21st Century.Hollyoaks star Sarah Jayne Dunn is defending the OnlyFans pictures that led to her exit from the long-running soap. Sarah - who has played the character of Mandy Richardson on the show since 1996 - was reportedly axed after refusing to delete her OnlyFans social media account. The platform is often used as a means for people to sell pornographic photo and video content to paying subscribers. Sarah joins Emma.The National Institute of Clinical Excellence has published new guidelines on the induction of labour for pregnant women with what has been called a u-turn on their original proposals in the summer. Elizabeth Duff, senior policy advisor at the National Childbirth Trust (NCT) and Asma Khalil, Consultant Obstetrician at St George's Hospital in London and spokesperson for the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists explain what these changes mean.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Hope you're faring well this Monday morning and had a lovely weekend. Shortly, we'll be trying to understand what the Defence Secretary Ben Wallace is hoping to achieve today with what's being described as an extraordinary meeting he's convened with the Army Board. That's the most senior figures in the British Army. But we do know women are a priority, as Mr Wallace has said prior to that meeting,

that the Army is woefully behind the rest of the public sector in enabling women to have careers and it must do better. More on that shortly. But what I wanted to ask you about today is related to another guest we have on the programme, Fiona Hill. A woman who has described her career as going from the coal house to the White House, Fiona Hill was one of the top Russia advisers

under President Trump and served President Obama and President George W. Bush before that. The daughter of a coal miner and midwife, she grew up in Bishop Auckland in the 60s, a town impoverished by mass de-industrialisation and the closure of mines. Her father advised her to leave, saying, quote, there is nothing for you here. She became much better known after giving evidence at the first impeachment inquiry of President Trump,

at the beginning of which she outlined some of her personal story. My questions to you today are around what some call social mobility, others call opportunity. How far have you travelled from where you grew up to transform your opportunities? Perhaps you were the first person to go to university in your family, or to travel abroad, or even to emigrate. Fiona Hill talks in a new book that she has out about being a woman adding to the complexity of leaving relative poverty behind. Sexism to surmount, preconceived ideas to debunk, as well as contending with people writing her off

for her strong North East accent. Perhaps you can relate to that. Fiona Hill also says because of class barriers here in the UK, she doesn't think she could have had the same success here as she has had in America. Tell me your experiences of striving for such opportunity, whether it worked, maybe it didn't. What you have to say about that from perhaps your own experience or those close to you or just witnessing how things are at the moment. 84844, you can text me on that number here at Woman's Hour. Of course, just to say, text will be charged at your standard message rate.

You can get in touch with me via social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through our website. And as ever, I will endeavour to come to some of your messages and read them out. Also on today's programme, the Hollyoaks star dropped from the soap because she wants to sell provocative photos of herself and changes to health guidance regarding giving birth, how they were conceived in the first place and what some are calling a U-turn, how that happened as well. But first, with regards to that meeting, the Defence Secretary Ben Wallace has called for what's being described as an extraordinary meeting today of senior army leaders. Concerns about the culture of the military will be raised, in particular with regards to women.

Mr Wallace has told Sky News, quote, We've got to make sure we are doing more than enough to make sure we have women welcome in the army and enjoy a future career in the army. We are woefully behind the rest, not only of parts of the armed forces, but the rest of the public sector. We have to do more on that front. Mr Wallace has said he will also raise the case of Agnes Wanjiru, a Kenyan woman who died in 2012. She was last seen in the company of two British soldiers and a Kenyan magistrate concluded after an inquest in 2019 that Miss Wanjiru had been murdered by one or two British soldiers. First, I'm joined by Hannah Al-Othman, one of the Sunday Times reporters who broke more details

about that Kenyan story last month. And then I'll be talking to Emma Norton, a lawyer who runs the Centre for Military Justice. But first, Hannah, let me come to you. Good morning. Morning. but first Hannah let me come to you good morning morning what can you tell us about Agnes Agnes Winduru about her life and death which I know you you've been covering extensively but some of our listeners may not be across so for people who aren't familiar with this story she was a young mother she was 21 she had a five-month-old daughter called Stacey and she was a hairdresser by trade but she was very poor and she basically turned sex work to make some money to feed and clothe her young daughter. Women could earn sometimes the equivalent of a month's salary in one night from British soldiers

so it wasn't uncommon in Nanyuki, the town in Kenya where she lived for them to do this and it was on the 31st of March 2012 um she was drinking socializing with soldiers in a bar and was last seen walking towards a room with um soldiers uh in the Lions Court Hotel which is in Nanyuki and that was the last time she was seen alive she had two friends with her in the Lions Court Hotel, which is in Nanyuki. And that was the last time she was seen alive. She had two friends with her in the bar. They saw her leave. And basically, her family continued to look for her for two months. There was no trace of her.

And then a hotel worker two months later found her decomposing body in a septic tank in the hotel. Nothing happened with her case for several years. The Kenyan police investigation was slow. There's been suggestions made that this is because of diplomatic relations between Britain and Kenya and no one wanted to make a fuss about this for fear of harming those. Eventually there was another inquest which started in, there was an inquest which started in 2018, concluded in 2019. And the magistrate that presided over that ruled that British soldiers had murdered Agnes. And so my colleague, David Collins, and I started looking into that.

The judge made the unusual step of publishing the names of some of the soldiers who checked into the hotel that night um and what we discovered was that actually uh her death and the name of the man alleged to have killed her were an open secret in the Duke of Lancaster's regiment everyone um not everyone but a lot of men attached that regiment knew the name of the man alleged to have killed her and it was actually something of a joke. We published Facebook posts of men from that regiment joking about her death. One had posted pictures of himself outside the hotel and others have commented with things like the word septic tank and a ghost emoji and crying with laughter emoji. So that's kind of what we've exposed through our reporting. Well, I was going to say to that, Mr. Wallace, the Defence Secretary,

said he and the Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office had provided help to the Kenyan authorities with their investigation. He said the Ministry of Defence had given the names of British soldiers in Kenya at the time nine years ago, but he said the Ministry of Defence had given the names of British soldiers in Kenya at the time nine years ago, but he said the UK was unable to conduct a separate investigation when it fell under Kenya's jurisdiction. What do you make of the response of both the government to this and to the, you know, the light you've been shining on this with your colleague at the Sunday Times and also to the army's response? It's been very slow, basically.

So what the Ministry of Defence are saying, what the Royal Military Police are saying is that Kenya needs to put in what's called a mutual legal assistance request. And without that, they can't really do anything because any evidence that they collect will be or could be inadmissible in court. But the thing is, this has been an open secret for so long. The Kenyan investigation was only fairly recently reopened. But nine and a half years have passed since this murder where it's been laughed about, joked about, talked about.

A key part of our investigation we had, and we ran an interview with a soldier who claims that he was taken by this man to see the body in the septic tank and that he went back to the camp in Kenya and he reported it to senior officers. And they basically, I think his words were they told him to shut up and go away. So he is alleging and others in the regiment are alleging a cover up by the army. So that, you know, they are now saying that they can't do anything. But there has been an action on this for several years when they very much could have done. So what are you actually wanting to see on this? Because this is going to be part of this meeting that happens today, which is being billed as something extraordinary. Well, I think what needs to happen, I mean, obviously obviously we're in touch with Agnes Wanjiri's

family and they have been fighting for justice and fighting for answers for nearly a decade now and so on their behalf we would like to see a full proper criminal investigation and you know these that we have spoken to so many witnesses so many people with information and I think they need to be spoken to by the authorities as well but But also, I think what is needed is an internal investigation in the army into why this has been covered up and the extent of that cover up and who knew and why this wasn't acted upon and properly investigated. And I'm going to come to the lawyer, Emma Norton, in just a moment. But a lot of the sounds about this meeting today with regards to women, and of which it seems to be a large proportion of this meeting is going to be focused on women, have been about the culture of the military, the culture of the army, I should say specifically, with regards

to women working in it. But what your focus is talking about is the culture, in this particular case, let's be specific, of perhaps the men working in the army, their attitude to women outside of the military, outside of the army? Yes, I mean, we've been contacted by serving and former soldiers who have raised issues about the treatment of women within the military, but also looking specifically at the behaviour of British soldiers abroad. We've been told that this, I mean the murder I'm sure was an unusual incident but aside from that the actions that went on that night, the behaviour, the drinking, the fact that they were paying women sometimes just one or two pounds for sex is what some of these soldiers told us. None of that is unusual and we were told this happened elsewhere, Cyprus, Belize, Germany,

these drunken, debauched nights out and using vulnerable women for sex and sometimes paying very little money and also putting their sexual health at risk because we were told that on many occasions this would be unprotected sex and the army knew about this because we were told that on some occasions regiments were mass HIV tested when they returned to the UK and this has been going on for decades. Hannah Al-Othman one of the Sunday Times reporters breaking a lot of the information around this particular story in Kenya, but also reflecting there on what else she said. Thank you very much for your time this morning. And of course, I can just say there, I don't have a particular statement with regards to what the army has to say about the sexual health side of things. Perhaps we'll seek to get that.

But what the army have issued in a statement with regards to this meeting today, an army spokesperson has said the army board is due to meet with the secretary of state in order to address several issues which are at the heart of the army's reputation and capability. The secretary of state is determined to work with the army's leadership to drive out unacceptable behaviour at all levels, particularly with respect to the treatment of women. The army's core value of respect for others must underpin everything it delivers on behalf of the nation, whether in the United Kingdom or operating around the world. Now, let me welcome Emma Norton, a lawyer who runs the Centre for Military Justice, as I said, but also has represented a number of women in the Army who have been victims of sexual assaults. Good morning. Good morning. How hopeful are you with regards to this meeting today with some of the experiences you have heard about and also been representing? Well obviously you can't take issue with the fact that an extraordinary meeting has been brought and that's a good thing

and any strong public statements about some of these issues is only a good thing and it's important to acknowledge that the army is taking some steps to address some of these unacceptable behaviours, but it's not going nearly far enough. And one of the things that is incredibly frustrating for the women that are contacting our charity is that the Secretary of State knows very well the things that he needs to do to properly address some of these issues, because he's been told time and time and time again by independent reviewer for independent review and he has failed to take the fundamental changes that have been recommended. So for example if you're talking about serious sexual harassment,

serious discrimination, more than two years ago the Wigston Review recommended that the investigation of those kinds of really serious complaints should be taken away from the single services. So don't let the army investigate them, don't let the navy, don't let the RAF, etc. Put it in a central body. And he has rejected that. He's not moving forward with that. And similarly, the repeated recommendations that in the investigation and prosecution of serious sexual crime, that those should be taken into the civil system in the UK. That has been rejected as well. There are lots and lots of other examples. I was going to bring up a fact, of course, and we covered it here on this programme. In July this year, a major inquiry has found that the majority of women in the British Armed Forces who came

forward for this inquiry said they'd been bullied, harassed or discriminated against. And something else you're speaking to there, I suppose, which is that the report also found the complaints are swept under the rug uniforms ill-fitting very few women getting on who are mothers and there are also other horror stories within there which people can look up that particular review and also our coverage of it to get more of a flavour but just so that people understand what we're talking about, could you give us an idea of the sorts of things you're hearing? Yeah, so it's like the defence inquiry said, it's when things start to go wrong for women, they go very badly wrong very, very quickly, and you kind of see this sort of snowball effect. So to be fair, I have had women say to me,

I didn't have a problem in the army until I had this sexual assault, and then everything went wrong. And what's clear is that the systems that are supposed to be in place to support and protect those women, first of all, to prevent the assaults from happening in the first place, of course, but then after they happen, are just not working. And so you're seeing things like women complaining about concerns about the quality of the military policing that they're receiving. And those concerns have been endorsed by an independent review called the Lions Review that they're receiving. Those concerns have been endorsed by an independent review called the Lions Review that reported last year. Problems about the service

prosecuting authority and the conduct of those cases at court-martial, if they get to court-martial, and the majority of course don't. And then really serious problems inside their units, where women are really coming up against really ingrained misogyny and really pernicious kind of rape myths, the kind of stuff that is really quite shocking to hear about. But of course, there'll be people listening to this thinking, you know, all sort of, especially the public sector, are reflections of the society that they come from. And yet the army here from the Defence Secretary is being told it's far behind in terms of the public sector. What do you make of that as a potential defence that some would say? Well, of course, the civil system is not great, and we know that,

and there are lots of people that are rightly taking really good action against the civil system for the poor outcomes for women. But the problem is the military system is even worse than that. So it's not an answer just to say that the civil system is bad when the military system is worse. And the fact is that in the civil system, women can have access to much greater quality, greater levels of quality of victim support as well,

and that is just not available to them in the armed forces. The fact is they keep tinkering with this and they're not delivering the fundamental reform that's needed. Do you have faith that Ben Wallace could? I think if he wanted to, he would have done the things that Wigston recommended, that the Lions Review recommended and the Defence Inquiry on Women recommended and he's not even given his formal response to the Defence Inquiry on Women yet. So no, not really.

Well, there's an open invitation to Mr Wallace here on Woman's Hour. I hope you will take me up on that and the programme up on that. Emma Norton, thank you very much for your time this morning. Emma there, who runs the Centre for Military Justice. Of course, anything you wish to say on this, do get in touch. And I've shared with you the statement from the army on this. You have been getting in touch this morning to my questions around opportunity and how to take it social mobility if you wish to call it that perhaps you were the first in your family to do something this is in light of my conversation i'm about to have with fiona hill who i'll tell you about more in just a moment but on some of these

messages uh one here no name on it born in grassington york in yorkshire dales in 1936 at 19 i went to france as an au pair the local paper had a headline, local girl goes to Paris. Another one here. My family background is one of poverty and workhouse stays for grandparents, but my parents strived hard and succeeded in bringing up four children who all went on to higher education and have had professional success. Two of us have worked abroad. You have to have a goal and go for it. P.S. I'm also from a northeast background, an anonymous message. And one more here. I just wanted to read before I come to Fiona. I left Loughborough University as a working class graduate. I got myself to America

by working in factories. It was the best thing I ever did. I went on to work as an art director and loved my life in Austin, Texas. I came home 13 years ago. I married the boy next door and had our son and I'm now living on a farm in Devon. I'm so glad I pushed myself to have that part of my life. Well, let's go then to a woman who has described her career from starting in the coal house, ending in the White House, or not ending, but, you know, culminating in some ways. Lots more for her to do. Fiona Hill was one of the top Russia advisers under President Trump, serving as Senior Director of European and Russian Affairs on the National Security Council from 2017 to 2019.

The daughter of a coal miner and midwife, she grew up in Bishop Auckland in the 60s, a town impoverished by the closure of mines. Her father advised her to leave, saying there is nothing for you here. She took his advice and moved to the US, serving as a policy expert on Russia under three presidents, two more in addition to Trump, Bush and Obama. But she was catapulted into the public eye for her testimony at the first impeachment inquiry of President Trump,

where she debunked the theory that Ukraine rather than Russia attempted to interfere in the 2016 election, as well as sharing her own very powerful personal story. Her appearance was so lauded that a hashtag Fiona Hill fan club started up on social media. She's written now about her experiences in a new memoir, There Is Nothing For You Here, Finding Opportunity in the 21st Century, and joins me now. Good morning, Fiona. Morning, Emma. Thanks for having me. You're in America as we speak, so it's a shame we're not together here in the UK, having this conversation.

Yeah, I'm sorry not to be there. No, no, but I felt I was transported very much into your life. You write incredibly vividly and powerfully, and I thought we'd start with what your father said to you. There is nothing for you here and he meant it didn't he he did and actually the the full quote would have been there's nothing for you here pet you know using the government even for the northeast of England but uh Maya I just thought that would be a bit weird for my audience might not it might get a completely different idea you know something to do with dogs and cats and goldfish or something.

Indeed. We left that bit off. But, yes, he did mean it. And, you know, it was the times, and I'm sure this resonates for many of the listeners of my age and older, of course, because, you know, beginning in the 1960s, there was quite a lot of decline already. You know, by the time i came along um in um

bishop auckland county durham the coal mines were already closing in the 60s when i was born my dad had lost his job repeatedly he'd gone from one mine to the next i mean he'd lost count himself of how many mines he'd worked in that had then closed he tried to steel works brickworks and then eventually he ends up working in the local hospital bishop auckland general hospital you know by the time you get to the 70s and 80s, you know, the NHS is starting to have crises as well. And, you know, all kinds of things are going on. And in 1984, when I left school, it was, you know,

getting towards the peak of the unemployment crisis in the 1980s. And for kids in the UK at that point, only 10% had something to go on to. I went back and looked up some of these, you know, the facts and figures from around the time, and I was shocked myself. I was like, wow, only 10%? No wonder my dad wasn't telling me to, you know, get the heck out. And I was one of the lucky ones. Like some of the people who've written in, I'd got a,

I wanted to study at university. I was already starting to apply. And basically it was a conversation with my dad when I was telling him about applying and what I was thinking about doing. We were talking about it and he said, well, if you do go on to university, you've got to go on after that

and do something else somewhere else. He said, you know, there's nothing for you here, pet. You won't find a job and you won't be able to use the education. Just go wherever you can. And we started going through all the things that I might do. And also he said, can't you go to the United Nations? Can't you tell someone about what you've seen? I mean, talk about setting your goals onto something you probably didn't even clock existed in quite the way that you'll understand it now.

I just wanted, if I could, to take a moment to pause on the description of his mother. You describe your grandmother in the book on the description of his mother. You describe your grandmother in the book and the life that she lived. And it's heartbreaking what went on with her and what happened to her. And I know, you know, you've talked about being a woman in the book and the additional cost, if you like, of sometimes trying to break free from poverty, because you talk about people not just dying of poverty, but dying of despair. That's right. And look, there's a lot of analysis and research on this right now in the UK, and especially in the United States, where there has been the documenting of deaths of despair for people who, you know, literally, their mortality rates are affected by the level of deprivation,

but that overall feeling that there's nothing for them at all, there's definitely nothing for them there. And my granny and granddad, my dad's parents, lived in the pit village in County Durham that he'd eventually grown up in. Roddy Moore just started a place called Crook in County Durham, or Crook, as we'd say in the North East. I've had to modulate a few things I say

since I get to the U.S. You could be free. You could be free here. Yes, I can be free to use my proper accent here to Crook in County Durham. And the place really fell on terrible times in the 60s and 70s because it had only been built to serve the pits, the local mines. And when they all closed down, there was a paintworks there as well. That closed down because it was just for serving the mines.

My granny and granddad got trapped in their row house because lots of other people left if they could. The bus stopped going into the village. There weren't really any shops close by, although, I mean, for the young and healthy, they actually didn't seem that far away. But my granny was crippled with arthritis and she'd had a lot of accidents in her past

and she'd had a really hard life as the wife of a miner and she'd worked in her own time in a leather factory in Crook and had an accident there and you know there's just lots of things that just snowball for her so she was in terrible health and also living in really terrible poverty they just couldn't make she had no pension really beyond what my granddad had and it was very meag basically, you know, by the time it got along to the seventies, they couldn't make ends meet at all. And they couldn't get out to get to any shops. So my granny just became obese and stuck in the house. And I was sent up after a while to, when I was old enough to help look after them. And it was just really harrowing because I realized my granny

never left the front room, part of them to go to bed or to go to the bathroom. And, you know, basically her whole life had shrunk down to this one room in a row house with only myself and my mum and dad and the odd neighbour coming to visit, hardly any of the relatives. And it was just, she just came, it fell into just a deep despair. And as a kid, you don't realise this. You just think, well, somebody's being quiet. They're not really speaking.

I just thought, well, that's kind of how she is. Because I would try to talk to her, hey, Granny, and I'll tell you what I did and what you're interested in this. And she just wasn't. And eventually, when my granddad passed away, and she had to come and live with us in our house for a couple of years. And she had to live in the front room because we had no extra room for her and she couldn't get up the stairs because she just really you know had such limited mobility that was a really harrowing time I have to say I

mean it was traumatic for all of us and especially you know when I think back for her but you know as a kid you don't quite appreciate what somebody else is going through to that full extent and when she finally got a place in a subsidized you know um residential home she just told my dad she'd had enough she just wanted to go it was just really crushing you know kind of feeling of just nothing you know even with your family around nothing yeah it was that line i kind of paused on it for a long time in the book when you know you just you don't want to think anyone that you know or love would ever just say, as you say, with family around them as well. I'm done. Yeah. I've had enough. I've had enough.

She said to my dad, I've just had enough. It's been too much. And, you know, when she was much younger, she had this box of letters. In fact, I mean, I'm thinking about this. You this is around the period of um of Armistice Day and she had this box of letters of all of her friends who she'd been at friends at school and she was born in like you know the very end of uh the 1890s and they'd all gone off to fighting the war with the Durham Light Infantry and almost none of them had ever come back you know the boys and it was clear though in that period she had a lot of hope and aspiration and there was all this letters back and forward and she would sometimes ask me to look through the box of the letters. how it relates, how Westminster, this very far away thing, sentences like Norman Tebbit saying, get on your bike and find a job. And

then you talk about your dad as a hospital porter, losing the bike or having the bike, sorry, stolen, and then not being able to afford another bike and having to walk, you know, so you bring these things together. And role models are often cited as hugely important for people to change their circumstances or mix things up. And I know you talk about a cousin in the book who'd been part of the Greenham Common Women. But you also talk about just because I want to bring us to also your career and your role with leaders. But you also talk about the fact that Thatcher, how could she, Margaret Thatcher, be a role model for somebody like you? That's right. I mean, of course, you know, she had an amazing accomplishment. She'd broken the glass ceiling, the ultimate one, by becoming prime minister and all eyes were on her.

She was obviously really tough. And, you know, I certainly admired what she'd achieved, her educational attainment, you know, you name it. But she, you know, for that period, was the person who presided over the whole collapse of the communities in which I was growing up. And, you know, though much later I appreciated that she wasn't the entire architect of our demise, it certainly seemed like that. There was a long tail to the disaster that befell the steel industry, the coal mining industry, shipbuilding, railways, you know, everything in nationalised industry in the United Kingdom. But it was under Margaret Thatcher where you had the mass layoffs and literally hundreds of thousands of people in the northeast of England lost their jobs all at once. And the workplace is closed down. So it actually meant that there was no opportunity for the people to find work. It took my dad a lot of time to find work in the National Health Service. And the work for most people like my dad, who hadn't got skills and qualifications and depended on the community around them, it was very low skilled manual labour.

And it was right at the very bottom of the economic rung. So my dad was worse off working as a porter in the National Health Service than he had been as a coal miner, you know, in the 1950s and the early 1960s when that had been kind of like the peak of British coal. You also recall a much later meeting with Tony Blair, just keeping with British leaders for a moment. And, you know, one of the things people always ask each other is, where are you from? Especially with your accent,

that was a big part of what people used to say. And how did you get here? And with your conversation with Tony Blair, there was some disbelief because we, I mean, I should say, you won a fellowship to Harvard after studying at St. Andrews, which again, getting there and the sort of social things you were meant to know, how to navigate these sorts of interviews to get into university.

I'm seeing, for instance, we've even got a message here saying, my parents didn't let me go to university. They just thought it was for the upper classes. But you did. But with Tony Blair, there was some disbelief that you had just sort of got to where you'd got. Yeah, and actually that letter underscores it, right? Because also in the 1980s, only 5% or 6% of kids from the UK leaving school would go on to university. And at that point it was universities and polys and even technical training and other programmes. It wasn't that usual to always, you know, kind of launch yourself onto these and certainly a long, tortuous path for many people going back to then.

And so, you know, fast forward rather a few decades, I'm at something called the Aspen Ideas Festival in Aspen, Colorado, with another colleague who was originally from UK who had a really compelling story herself. Her family were refugees from, you know, 1930s Germany who'd come to London and then, you know, kind of work their way around. But my background seemed most perplexing to Tony Blair, even though he was the MP, you know, at one point for Sedgefield, the next constituency over for Bishop Auckland. So we knew the history of the region very well. But, you know, as soon as I said where I was from, you know, and he hears my accent, he just couldn't quite get it.

And he just thought, how did you get here? And I said, well, I took a plate. I mean, anybody was asking, but I thought, oh, no, you can't. You've got to be kidding me. He's not asking me this, is he? But he was. And, you know, he eventually said, no, come on. You know, how did you get here?

And I said, well, Mr. Blair, I'm the Prime Minister Blair. I'm the Labour Party at work because, you know, back in the day when I was starting off, it was all Labour Party. This was before, you know, the breaking of the Red Wall and the 2019 general election. And, you know, my local MP at the time, Derek Foster, had been the chief whip of the Labour Party. And he was really dedicated to his constituency and, you know, old style MP, knew everybody's name and was really focused on education. He'd come to the school when I was about 13 or 14, maybe a bit older, and it was a really memorable visit. And he'd said, look, you don't have to be confined by circumstances. You can all get an education, just go as far as you can. You can do whatever you want

to do. And he'd tell his own personal story and that telling the personal story giving a kind of path to success he'd come from sunderland a very poor family he'd had all kinds of challenges in his life and he'd gone on to university it was the days of the grammar school so there was a you know pathway but he was basically saying you can do it too and that really struck me and i thought you know he's one of the first people who'd said you can also go to university and you can do something. But he did say education is a privilege. And if you do get an education, do something with it. And so I've done something with it. And then suddenly I meet Tony Blair who's a bit perplexed. It's a great story. It's a great story. I wanted to make sure we could we could get into that.

There are a lot of great stories, of course, about your time working in the White House. And I know that you were offered the job as the top Russia advisor on Trump's National Security Council the day after you'd attended the Women's March, protesting Trump. What motivated you to say yes, or maybe not protesting him per se, but you tell us more about that decision? Well, I was definitely protesting misogyny and sexism. And, you know everywhere not just in places like Kenya I mean it's just sometimes things never change that sort of callous disregard and the whole atmosphere during the campaign was obviously one of pretty heightened sexism and so like many people you know I did feel that I needed to protest this it's a general fact that it was all kind of normalized it was when I was growing up in the UK, just to be clear, and I write about that also in the book.

But it was also what I was really concerned about at the time was the intervention by the Russian security services, the intelligence services in the US presidential election in 2016. I'd been the National Intelligence Office of Russia. I'd written a whole book about Vladimir Putin with a colleague from Brookings. I knew a lot about what was going on. And when I got asked, which was, I have to say, something pretty unexpected, but based on my previous job and all the things that I'd done professionally, I felt like I had to step up, no matter what I might have thought about the person. It was a national security issue, and I felt I had a duty and an obligation. I'd spent all of this time working on Russia. I saw what was happening. And yet? I just stood back at the sidelines, then what? I mean, you know, I was just giving that to other people. So that was really the motivation there.

I was just going to interject with, and yet, one of the first occasions you met President Trump, despite all of that experience, he mistook you for a secretary. That's right. He did play to type. And, you know, as I learned throughout the whole time that I was there, I mean, he had a pretty high disregard for most people, but especially for women, unless they were from his immediate orbit or his immediate family. He didn't really pay very much attention to them. He didn't think that, you know, kind of a woman could really give him any information of any particular value.

He listened to Gina Haspel, who was the director of the Central Intelligence Agency, when she and some of the other briefers who also happened to be women, you know, came and gave him his intelligence brief. But beyond that, he didn't really want to hear. You know, he basically, with many of the men as well, he was under the impression that, you know, those titles in the United States, Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State, also meant that they were secretaries. And so even people like Rex Tillerson, who was the Secretary of State and former CEO of ExxonMobil,

had a hard time getting traction. Yeah, I mean, you do also say in the book that a former White House official said in relation to you that Trump doesn't, quote, trust women who are non-players in this world. So yes, the lack of trust for a lot of the people around him, regardless of sex, seemed to be there, but specifically around women, perhaps even more so from what you're saying there.

I did mention that inquiry, the impeachment inquiry that sort of catapulted you. And one of the things that you have to spend some time even thinking about is how you dressed. And I was particularly obsessed with one bit because I also do TV and I love radio for it not being about what we're looking like right now and about what we're saying. I'm wearing a sweater right now, actually. You are. We do have you in vision, to be fair. I can see you on the video. I know, but it's OK. It's about five, it's 30 in the morning or something. The bit that I thought was also really brilliant advice for you, if I can put it like this, is that it was going to be cold in that room because the temperature was set for men wearing their suits. And you were going to be going in probably in, I don't know, a dress or something and make sure that you weren't too chilly

to be uncomfortable. That's right. Yeah. I mean, it was the first thing that the PR guru for my law firm told me. First of all, I had to have a law firm, which I was extremely grateful I had a really good friend who was a lawyer and who offered to step up and help me. And he immediately brought on a PR guru who works for the law firm. And I thought, why are we doing all of this? And immediately became apparent why, because it was all about presentation and about kind of dealing with everything in the moment. And then the first thing she said, we'll have to figure out what you wear. And I thought, seriously? And then, you know, realising that, you know, for guys, there's always, you know, they've got undergarments, and then the shirt on top, and,

you know, the kind of big jacket. And as you said, there's an assumption that women will be more likely dressed. And she said, you will literally freeze. And so she gives me all of this advice about what to wear and how to press the balls of my feet into the floor to push out the energy, the nervous energy, and also to stop your teeth from chattering. So just that was a tip I thought I'd leave in the book for anybody who finds themselves in an unexpected predicament, testifying or something else, and just press your balls of your feet into the floor. And it really helps with dealing with the situation. It's extraordinary. And what I was also going to say, I'm just looking at some of these messages here.

And of course, you give that evidence. It's all there for people to see. And as I mentioned, it was about debunking this idea that it was Ukraine, not Russia. And you talk about some of the legacy of that, the truth still being questioned in America. And we've got a message that's come in from another Fiona from Bishop Auckland who says, I was brought up two streets away from Fiona Hill in Bishop Auckland.

There's a two-year difference in our age. There's much I agree that Fiona has to say about social mobility and prejudice. At the time, I look at the achievements of many of our peer group in Bishop Auckland. I'm one of eight children. five of us are university graduates. My former next door neighbour is a professor at UK University. I could go on. Others who have not been to university or become professionals also have fulfilling lives and careers. Some people messaging in about that. This is not to say that there aren't others in our hometown that could have been left behind.

And I think these are the people we should be concerned about foremostly. So a message of large agreement with you there. Can I just bring our time together to a close? Actually, on that point, there's so much more I could ask. And perhaps we'll talk again about Russia, Ukraine and democracy and truth. But it is about opportunity and social mobility. Could a girl from Bishop Auckland today get to the White House? I think it would be more difficult. And it's interesting. I think I know the other Fiona.

Good. And a couple of years behind. But, you know, in the time when we were, you know, growing up there in the 80s, the early 80s, there was somewhat of aspiration. You know, I mean, our parents, my parents really wanted me to have an education. And you made a point earlier from another person who sent in a comment saying that, you know, kind of people said it's just for the upper classes for education. I think there was a shift, you know, kind of over the last several years where a lot of the aspiration from the family part has dissipated. If you get multiple generations in poverty,

which we didn't really have at that point because there had been a period when all of our dads had work and this was kind of the town was really changing. If you get kind of multiple generations who haven't had opportunity, then they just start to think that there is nothing for you here

and just don't bother. And I've been really disturbed in the last kind of 30 odd years since I left the UK, that in is nothing for you here and just don't bother. And I've been really disturbed in the last, you know, kind of 30-odd years since I left the UK that in and around Bishop Ork and I've talked to a lot of people who were in education in my old school, at the county level and the education authorities who I've kept in contact with, because, I mean, they really boosted my opportunity. They say, you know, that they're finding that a lot of kids in the schools

don't think that they can, you know, kind of blaze that same trail. And I'd like, you know, through the book and try to speak out about that to tell kids what Derek Foster said to me, yes, you can. And it's just, you know, kind of having that supportive community around you. And if you don't find it through your parents and your family, through teachers, I have at the back of the book, a whole load of suggestions that I kind of picked up along the way for people, especially important for teachers and other people in the larger community to give kids a boost. And to the other Fiona and people, you know, like the other classmates who went on to college and universities,

speak out as well and tell kids how you can do it. So you have those role models. There are many suggestions in there. The book's called There's Nothing for You Here, Finding Opportunity Underlined in the 21st Century. Fiona Hill, thank you very much for talking to me and to all of us today. Thanks Emma, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. Many messages also coming in around that opportunity in your life. And if I can, I will come back to them, I promise. But to my next guest, Sarah Jane Dunn, who was of the

Hollyoaks parish, if I can put it like that. Former Hollyoaks star Sarah-Jane Dunn is defending provocative pictures posted on the OnlyFans website that has led to her exit from the long-running soap. Sarah, who's played the character of Mandy Richardson on the show since 1996, was axed after refusing to delete her OnlyFans account. The platform is often used as a means for people to sell photos and video content, usually of quite an explicit nature and for some pornographic, to paying subscribers.

Good morning, Sarah-Jane. Good morning. Thanks for joining us today. Is it Sarah-Jane or is it Sarah, actually? Either or, I don't mind. Either or, okay. Just on with regards to OnlyFans, because people can't access your content unless they subscribe,

what are you sharing now? Can you describe what you're trying to put out? Yeah, I can describe it exactly because it's exactly the same type of content I was previously putting onto my Instagram account and my Twitter, so a really public forum. And all I've simply done is move the more, I guess you described it as more provocative, but the sort of lingerie bikini shoots that I have done all of my career, I've done all of my life through my job.

I've just moved those images onto a subscription platform now. And I wanted to make my... So you've not changed the content. You're still clothed, but in lingerie. Yes. Radio is about pictures of the mind. so I'm just trying to describe it also if people don't follow you they may not know and were you aware that this could cause problems with Hollyoaks no not really because like I say all the only thing I've done is move this content from one

platform to another and actually what my intention for doing so was to keep my Instagram as a more sort of family friendly, user friendly platform where, you know, I can be more wholesome, I guess. And the majority of my followers on Instagram are 75% women. And actually, I get tons of support from women when I do put images up in bikinis, because people are motivated, people are inspired. I train hard. I'm really into my fitness. I'm really into healthy eating. I'm really into women. Just because I want to make sure we get through enough here. But that's not going to be, of course, what OnlyFans is about, is it? Because that's for people to look at you in a different way well actually only

fans i think this is the misconception of only fans like it's an over 18s platform because actually there you know there is explicit content on there there is pornography as you said but actually it's a content creators platform you can use it for whatever you like there are musicians on there there are people doing recipes on there there are yoga teachers on there and it just gets this association with the explicit content because that is available too. But actually, that is not what I'm doing. So that's also why there's been some controversy about it,

not just to do with you. I mean, if I was just looking through this morning, there has been discussion around it, for instance, because we've seen that there are underage accounts. There's two BBCbc investigations one in 2020 one earlier this year several accounts were found to have been made by underage teens i mean do you have concerns about being on the platform in that regard well i found the platform really really difficult to actually set up my own account so i i'm i'm unaware of these um investigations

but what i do know is that it was difficult for me to get on as a 40 year old woman and you've got to provide ID there's facial recognition and even then I got rejected for the first couple of times um so I I don't know about that but from my experience this is me about me making my choices and what I want to do with my body and not forcing anybody to swap swap over to a subscription site and for, this was about taking back control of my image and what content I create. And making money, I suppose. Yeah, of course. And, you know, that's obviously part of it.

And why not? You know, why shouldn't I capitalise on my own image and my own image rights? And let's come to that in just a moment, because, of course, some will remember the Hollyoaks calendar, right? Yeah. Which, yes, I mean, we should say is no longer a thing. And we've got a statement with regards to that.

A decision was taken to stop these calendars taken in 2013. Prior to 2013, Hollyoaks cast who wanted to participate in the calendar shoot were able to do so on commercial terms? It was a contractually, a contractual thing, I would say. It wasn't really an optional thing. And so this is what I mean. I've been doing these type of shoots for years and years, but with no control over what I'm wearing, the location, the photographer, the choice of the image at the end any editing there's photos out there of me that look nothing like me um i am very much into not editing pictures so that you know again i can be that motivation for women i must add as well that you know a lot of women

have followed me over to my only fans account because again it's it's for fans it's for that interaction and it's actually a safer space for me you know if on the on something like instagram i get sent direct messages and there's unsolicited pictures on there and you can block you can report that account account instagram don't do anything about it that person will set up another account and it happens time and time again whereas what i've found with only fans is if i report someone block them because they've had to sign up with id they get and shut down immediately so it feels like a safe space for me. If someone sends me an image, it's pixelated. So it would be my choice to open that image if I wanted to. Channel 4, a statement made by the makers of Hollyoaks, say Hollyoaks is a youth-facing

drama with many young viewers who follow our cast very closely, both in the soap and outside of it. We take our responsibility to our young audience very seriously and therefore the show does not allow any Hollyoaks cast members to be active on certain 18 plus websites. We had hoped we could reach a resolution with Sarah that would allow her

to remain in her role as Mandy but we respect her choice to continue to produce content on OnlyFans. What do you make of that? Well, see this is the thing. It wasn't my choice to to leave the show the show yeah is is a youth-facing drama but again these like i say these photo shoots i've been part of for many years of my career most of my career a lot of them have been um through the show um the show covers a lot of controversial

issues and topics um and you know I can't speak too much about it because of the situation that I'm in with the show right now but what I would say is is you know take to social media and just look at some of the sort of comments but do you feel morally judged by Hollyoaks I do feel judged yeah definitely and I feel disappointed. And I feel like I've been reprimanded for something that I've been contractually bound to do by the show for, like I say, for most of my career. And I'm actually not doing anything different

to what I've been doing for, you know, for as long as Instagram's been a thing. I've just, like I say, moved my content personally onto what I feel is a safer platform because actually the younger audience can't follow me over there. Do you have any appetite if they reverse their decision to remove you to go back? Again that's something that I mean that's not been offered and that's something that I can't really discuss. It was just more that once you're in this situation you've been on it on it for a long time I can't really discuss. It was just more that once you're in this situation, you've been on it for a long time.

I didn't know if you could, because I know that perhaps negotiations are ongoing, but perhaps your feeling about that you could share. Well, what I will say is that I love the people there. I mean, there's a reason that I've been part of the show for 25 years, more than 25 years. There's a reason that I've gone back time and time again. There's a reason that I didn't choose to leave.

I love working there. I love to leave. I love working there. I love the cast. I love the crew. There's a whole wealth of wonderful, talented, incredible people. So, you know, I'm very sad that I'm not a part of that anymore. And I will miss those people desperately. Well, and just, I mean, a message that's come in with regards of, is it worth it to you?

Is this really worth it? Some would say perhaps you're going to be losing your position in this soap, whether they think that's fair or not. Is it financially really worth it? There's been a lot of talk of finance around this. And what I would say is don't believe what you read in the press. I mean, some people have been saying I've been making seven grand a week. Some people are saying I've made 120 grand in two days. People are saying there's 120,000 pound a year for Hollyoaks.

People don't know the financial side of things unless you're in it. And I'm not here to disclose that. But what I will say is actually this conversation that this has opened and the fact that I've stood my ground with this and this is something I have chosen to do for me and I am taking back control of me and my image and I guess my career now. And actually it's presenting quite a lot of opportunities. And I feel like I'm standing my ground for other women out there and other 40-year-old mums out there that, you know,

not just doing this, just in life in general, just making their own choices and standing their ground and setting healthy boundaries. Sarah-Jane Dunn, thank you very much for your time. A message, a statement from OnlyFans which says, OnlyFans is an inclusive social media platform welcoming creators from all genres. OnlyFans supports the creator economy

and allows creators to develop authentic relationships with their fans while empowering them to maximise control and monetise their content. For individuals like Sarah-Jane Dunn, this gives them unparalleled creative control over their content. Well, I did say that I'd bring you the latest before we end the programme today with regards to the National Institute of Clinical Excellence, known as NICE,

and new guidelines on the induction of labour for pregnant women. It's been called a U-turn on the original proposals in the summer. Let's speak now to Elizabeth Duff, Senior Policy Advisor at the National Childbirth Trust, the NCT, but first to Dr Asma Khalil, consultant obstetrician at St. George's Hospital in London and a spokesperson for the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. What's changed, Asma? Well, the NICE guideline has published the final version of the guideline.

They've taken on board the feedback and modified some of their recommendations. And the current guidance is that pregnant women should be informed about the risk. So when they go beyond 41 weeks, that there is increased risk of needing cesarean section. There is increased risk of needing cesarean section, there is increased risk of the baby needing admission to the intensive care unit, and increased risk of the baby dying.

And also women who are from, who have some additional risk, such as women who are Black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds, that they are informed about the increased risk of stillbirths. And therefore, women should have the choice, should have informed choice about whether to have induction of labour or to continue with the pregnancy. So the major change, having listened, is what? And mainly that we give information to pregnant women and give them the choice whether they would choose to have an induction of labour or to continue the pregnancy and wait for labour to start by itself. Thank you for that. I'll come back to you in a moment.

Elizabeth, your response to this change? We commented on the earlier version, mainly with a view that there appeared to be no evidence base for the proposed recommendation to black, Asian and minority ethnic women that they would be recommended induction of labour at 39 weeks of pregnancy. It was surprising to us that there was no evidence put forward for this because our understanding was that NICE is an institute

that is specifically intended to base their guidelines on evidence. It also seemed to be in conflict with the spirit of individualised care and women-centred care that's been very much part of maternity policy since Better Births came out in England five years ago. So we made those comments. We're quite pleased to see that the recommendation in the current version has not been retained, but quite agree that giving women that information and I think more importantly, a lot of emphasis on discussion with the woman, allowing her time to talk about such things with her family and partner.

Those are really important. And we are concerned, of course, about the very considerable understaffing of maternity services at the moment, which may impact on how much those discussions are in practice going to happen. And how much people can have access to professionals to have those conversations. To come back to you on that, Dr Khalil, what about that? What was the evidence with regards to black and Asian communities?

Well, the evidence is that black women have more than twice the risk of stillbirths compared to white women. And Asian women are more than 50% higher risk of stillbirths. And we also know that women from the bright background, again, they have twice the risk of stillbirths. And maybe just to clarify this point, the final version of the guideline does not necessarily mean that we recommend induction of labour. I think the guidance is that we should inform women. We give them the information so they can make informed choice. On that point, with regards to black and Asian communities, this is with regard to socio-economic and racial inequalities across the country.

Yes, absolutely. Yes, no, I just wish to clarify that. I mean, we had a conversation linked to this very recently. And so in terms of, I mean, on that point, are you confident that when women are given this information, Dr Khalil, they'll know what to do with it? Well, it is the job for the healthcare professional to be able to communicate this risk without worrying the woman, because the absolute risk is small, ensuring that they understand what that means, answering all the questions, so they are in a position to make an informed decision.

Thank you very much for that. Elizabeth Duff, what about you on that point? I agree with nearly everything that Dr. Khalil is saying there. Of course, we want women to be aware of the information and also not to worry them over much, but that is an exceedingly difficult thing to achieve, in my view, particularly at the moment when we know there is not what there should be, a proportion of one midwife to one woman in labour, being able to spend time with her and her partner and really having a calm discussion about issues like that, quite difficult decisions. I'm making those tough choices with someone to help you. Elizabeth Duff, Senior Policy Advisor at the National Childbirth Trust. Thank you to you. And Dr Khalil, Consultant Obstetrician at St George's Hospital on those changes. So many powerful messages today. Thank you for those about

finding opportunity and social mobility off the back of our discussion, my interview there with Fiona Hill. A message here, I grew up in a mining community too, so I really connect with Fiona's story. I lost an old school friend this summer. She drank herself to death. Her son is a drug dealer, a victim of the county lines grooming, which is tearing these areas apart. But another one here from someone listening who came from Wolverhampton and a single parent family who, through education, has been able to transform her life and wanted to get in touch this morning. Many of those stories coming in. Thank you so much for those and your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.