Woman's Hour - Hollywood film producer Deborah Snyder, Young women and voting, Machinal star Rosie Sheehy

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

Deborah Snyder has produced some of the biggest blockbusters and action franchises in the last decade including Wonder Woman, 300 and Watchmen. Her newest work, Rebel Moon - Part Two: The Scargiver arrives on Netflix this week. It's the second instalment of the Rebel Moon series, a space opera set in a fictional galaxy with a female protagonist. Deborah produced it alongside her husband and long-term creative collaborator, director Zack Snyder. She joins Jessica Creighton live in the studio.A proposed new UK tournament for women's tennis at The Queen's Club in London is facing a set-back. They need to convince the men's professional tennis circuit that they won't damage the grass for the men's tournament at the same club the following week. The week-long women's event would be staged for the first time in 2025, and would replace Eastbourne as the only Women's Tennis Association 500 event, taking place in the UK in the run-up to Wimbledon. Jess speaks to tennis broadcaster Catherine Whitaker to discuss.Today is the deadline to register to vote in the local elections on May 2nd. The most recent data suggest that 4.3 million young people in England aren’t currently registered. Jessica speaks to Sharon Gaffka, who’s supporting the Give an X campaign, calling on young people to get involved. A survey by the youth led charity My Life My Say also says that fewer than 1 in 6 of young women trust politicians and more than four in 10 believe their vote won’t make a difference in an election. Also joining Jessica is Rosie Campbell, Professor of Politics and Director of the Global Institute for Women’s Leadership at King’s College London, to explain the trends behind the latest data.In 1927 journalist Sophie Treadwell attended the sensational trial of Ruth Snyder, a New York woman accused murdering her husband. Ruth was found guilty, along with her accomplice lover Henry Judd Gray, and both were executed by electric chair in January 1928. Those events inspired Sophie Treadwell to write the play Machinal, which premiered on Broadway later that year. A recent production has just transferred from the Theatre Royal Bath to the Old Vic in London and its star, Rosie Sheehy, along with US academic Dr Jessie Ramey join Jessica to discuss the case of Ruth Snyder and why Machinal still resonates with audiences today.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, you heard the link there to register to vote. Have you done it? Today is the last day to do so ahead of the local elections on the 2nd of May. It only takes five minutes online, but the latest figures show that more than four million young people are not yet registered. And a recent survey shows that young

women are less likely to trust politicians in comparison to young men. Former Love Island contestant, now campaigner Sharon Gaffker will be joining us. She wants to tell young people your vote does matter. Also, how a play originally produced almost a century ago is still engrossing audiences today. Mackinac first opened in 1920s America and focuses on a woman accused of murdering her husband. But many of its themes, including societal expectations of women, are still relevant today.

We'll hear from the star of the production, currently running in London, and have what I guess we have for you coming up in the Women's Hour studio this morning. A powerhouse Hollywood producer, Deborah Snyder has been the driving force behind countless big-budget blockbusters, including 300, Wonder Woman and Batman v Superman,

will be discussing not just her career, but also female representation in the movie industry. And I do wonder, has Deborah Snyder ever had to deal with the kind of incident that we saw recently involving actor and singer Hannah Waddingham? You might have seen the video that's been circulating online when she was on the red carpet at the Olivier Awards over the weekend. A photographer asked her to show a bit of leg as she was posing in her gown. She gave him a bit of a hefty telling off and she said, you'd never say that to a man. Have some manners. It's not an easy situation to deal with, is it? My question to you this morning is how have you dealt with unsolicited requests like this or unwanted behaviour maybe?

What happened? How did you respond? It can be in any setting, of course. It can be so hard to know what to do for the best depending on whether there are other people around or whether you're one on one with the person. But get in touch and let us know what happened. You can text the programme on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. We're also on WhatsApp where you can send a message or a voice note, 03700 100 444.

Hopefully you've got that number saved by now. On social media, we're using the handle at BBC Women's Hour. And you can almost always email us through our website. Excuse me. So the text number 84844 and WhatsApp [phone]. So all of that to come. But first this morning, a proposed new UK tournament for women's tennis at the Queen's Club in London is facing a setback.

They need to convince the men's professional tennis circuit that they won't damage the grass for the men's tournament at and would replace Eastbourne as the only Women's Tennis Association 500 event taking place in the UK in the run-up to Wimbledon. I'm now joined by the tennis broadcaster Catherine Whittaker to discuss this. Good morning Catherine. Good morning Jessica, thanks for having me. Yeah of course, so just tell us a bit more about this tournament that's been proposed. Yeah. So as you said, the ATP, the men's tennis tour, has held a pre-Wimbledon event at the Queen's Club in London going back to the 1800s. It's widely considered to be the most prestigious and high profile event in the lead up to Wimbledon. Past champions include Pete Sampras, John McEnroe, Rafael Nadal, Andy Murray five times and there's a notable history of Queen's champions going on to win Wimbledon just a few weeks later. Now the Women's Tennis Association do have on paper equivalent level

size of events in the UK ahead of Wimbledon however anybody will tell you that they don't come close to matching Queen's for profile or status without question having a women's tennis event at Queen's would be a huge win for for the tour for the sport particularly in the UK and the LTA the governing body of tennis in the UK, are heavily backing this plan and pushing for this change to go through. But as you say, standing in the way is the ATP, the governing body of men's tennis, who as, if you like, existing occupiers of the territory, have to give the green light to women's tennis, rolling onto their lawn and sharing it. And as the story broke yesterday by the BBC's tennis correspondent, Russell Filler, there is apparently significant resistance among the men's tennis ranks.

Existing occupiers, you say. So why is there such resistance? Tell us more about what's going on behind the scenes there. Yeah, tennis seems to have finally managed to create the perfect metaphor for the patriarchy. The men's tennis, I think, will tell you that the resistance comes from a concern over the quality of the grass. The grass at the Queen's Club is famously some of the very best in the world. Some people will tell you it is the best in the world, even better than Wimbledon. But of course, famously at Wimbledon, the grass is played on for two weeks.

And okay, there is some deterioration in the quality over the course of those two weeks. But with the best groundskeepers in the world, which they have at Wimbledon and at Queen's as well, it is possible to maintain a good quality of grass over the course of two weeks. And that is something that Scott Lloyd, the LTA's chief executive, is pushing very hard. He says they've got the data, they've sought reassurances. There is absolutely no question that the quality of the grass can be maintained for two weeks, but among a number of other minor quibbles, that's being posited as the main reason for the men being sceptical. They see it as their grass and they're unprepared to compromise on its quality.

So what have the ATP had to say about this officially? Not a lot officially so far, which is going to be very interesting indeed. I rather suspect that had this all stayed behind closed doors, they would have just very quietly vetoed the plans and we wouldn't have heard anything much about it. But the fact that this has come to light creates a problem for them because to stand in the way of these plans looks optically extremely poor, I think. And at a time when Andrea Gaudenzi, the chief executive of men's tennis, is publicly talking a very big game about a potential merger of men's and women's tennis and, at the very least,

far closer relations and more collaboration, optically, this would be pretty disastrous, I think, for the ATP and men's tennis. So it's going to be very interesting to see what their move is next. It kind of feels like a game of chess now. What do you expect to happen as someone who immerses themselves in the tennis world? How surprised are you by this disagreement? And what is the likely outcome then? I'm not, sadly, I'm not surprised at all that there is resistance from men's tennis. As I say, a lot of people within men's tennis talk quite a good game about wanting there to be further collaboration, maybe even a merger, something that Billie Jean King has been calling for since the early 70s, of course. But very few figures, stakeholders in men's tennis are prepared for what that looks like in practice.

It obviously involves a long term view of growing an overall high, whereas tennis is an incredibly fragmented sport not just along gender lines and men's tennis is is fundamentally when it comes down to it concerned with protecting their piece of an existing pie and they see themselves as the gatekeepers of that pie um so it doesn't surprise me at all that there is resistance uh from men's tennis i i do wonder, though, if they can withstand how poor this is going to look optically now that it's all in public, if they do stand in the way. I rather suspect that PR will win out and they will give in in the end.

But the fact that we're in a situation where men's tennis is the gatekeeper of the success of women's tennis, I think, is is an interesting metaphor for a wider state of affairs. And it's certainly a theme that we have explored here on Women's Hour countless times, not just in sport, but in other areas as well. Catherine, thank you very much for that update. Tennis broadcaster Catherine Whittaker there joining us on Women's Hour. Now, I did ask you at the beginning of the show to get in touch about how you've dealt with unsolicited requests or unwanted behaviour. How you what happened, how you dealt with it, what you said. And lots of you have already been getting in touch.

Let me come to a couple of them now. Someone has messaged in to say, in the 70s, in my first job after leaving university, myself and another young woman found ourselves having our bottoms pinched by two slightly older male employees. So we began pinching theirs. The tactic worked beautifully. No more pinching and a more respectful attitude all round. Another message here from Sandy. When I applied for a job many years ago, I was asked how I would manage if my children were ill. I told the interview panel that I would answer the question if they also asked the male applicants. They gave me the job. And another one here. My wonderful daughter worked as a waitress during uni. A group of chaps were getting a bit leery and one told her she had nice boobs, using a four-letter word. She smiled sweetly and said, thanks, I grew them myself.

Brilliant. That's a great retort. Perhaps one of us, me myself, I might use that when I need it as well. My next guest has just walked in the studio and smiling. I wonder if you have been in the same situation. Let me introduce her first, though, because Deborah Snyder has produced some of the most popular films in the last two decades, including Wonder Woman, 300, Watchmen, Suicide Squad, Batman v Superman.

I could go on and on and on. But Deborah's newest work, Rebel Moon Part 2, The Scargiver, arrives on Netflix this week. She produced it alongside her husband, the director, Zack Snyder, and they've actually worked together on a number of films over the years. This is the second installment of the Rebel Moon series, which is a space opera set in a fictional galaxy, which follows the heroine Cora, who decides to fight the armies of a tyrannical ruling force to protect her new community. Good morning, Deborah.

Good morning. Thanks for having me. Great to have you in the Woman's Hour studio. Did you hear the messages I was reading out there and how women have dealt with unsolicited requests? Yes, I heard some of them. And I imagine being a woman in the position that you're in, in a male-dominated industry, you might have had to deal with similar situations yourself. Yeah, you know, I feel like it was a lot worse. I came from advertising.

And in the 90s, working in New York, it was so male-dominated. And I feel like there was a lot of inappropriate things that went on and it was before people started really talking about that and you just kind of accepted it and, you know, it was before Me Too and before people were like, no, this is not okay. I can imagine. Let's talk though, firstly, about Rebel Moon. And what struck me was the fact that the heroine leads the way.

Was that important for you? The heroine is Cora. She's played by Sophia Boutella. Was it important to you to have a woman at the center who is strong, leads the way, fierce? Yes, absolutely. You know, I am a genre filmmaker, and I think a lot of times in genre, you have these very thin female characters. And I am so happy that my husband, who does a lot of the writing is that she's on this hero's journey. But let's focus on Wonder Woman. And how important was it for you to have women front and center in that film, both on and off screen? Yeah, I mean, listen, I think a lot of times we talk about the script, we talk about the leading roles being female, but having women behind the camera is equally important.

And having a woman director bring Wonder Woman to the big screen for the first time was just something that, like, it had to be a woman. And it was just exhilarating. You know, there were so many comic book movies, but really Wonder Woman was the first that we had this, you know, there were so many comic book movies, but really Wonder Woman was the first that we had this, you know, it was all about bringing this amazing character, who is a woman and a superhero to the screen. And it was the first it was not really done, was it? It wasn't really seen and heard before you had done it. And no, you had produced a movie like that. No, not at all. And it was really important to get it right. And it was also, I think, the first big franchise film to be helmed by a female director. Patty Jenkins.

Yeah. Patty Jenkins, sorry, I should say. Yeah. And were you behind the decision to include older women as well? Because sometimes older women feel like they are left behind both on screen and off screen. And you had Connie Nelson playing Wonder Woman's mother. Yes, absolutely. I mean, we've been a fan of Connie's. She's a good friend now. But I think it was really important to have all these like very believable characters, women of all ages

and ethnicities, you know, represented in Wonder Woman. So how did you first get into producing movies? Because you've already said you started in advertising, didn't you? So your experience, I think, really, for me, translated to the features very easily. And most of what we do is try and sell our ideas, right? We sell them to the studio. We sell it to an actor. We sell it to if we're trying to hire a writer to write something. And I think advertising really taught me how to do that, how to pitch, and also how to, you know, deal with different personalities.

Because as a producer, you know, a lot of people don't know what producers do because we wear so many different hats. You know, and a lot of it is problem solving. It's dealing with safety. It's dealing with any HR things that come up. It's dealing with the studio and communicating, being the dealing with any HR things that come up, it's dealing with the studio and communicating, being the liaison with the director. It's so many different things. Now, I mentioned it right at the beginning, but you do work very often alongside your husband, who is a director and producer himself, Zack Snyder, has a very high profile in Hollywood.

Now, you must see an awful lot of each other. Tell me, what is it like to work with your partner? Well, it's amazing, actually, because we really take care of each other. And we support each other. And it's nice to, you know, it's a lot of pressure making these movies. And it's nice to have someone that's always on your side, not to say that we always agree. But we might have our differences. And then talk those out and we always will have a united front. And at the end of the day, you know, he is the director. And as a producer, it's my job to get his vision to the screen. So you can't take some of the things personal if you don't agree necessarily, because it's still my job to get that vision.

So you feel comfortable critiquing each other then? We do. We do. if you don't agree necessarily, because it's still my job to get that vision. So you feel comfortable critiquing each other then? We do. We do. And we met in advertising on a soft and dry deodorant commercial. So we've worked together basically since we've known each other. Now, I'm almost reticent to ask you this because I know you get asked it a lot. But if there's an audience that cares about your answer, it's the Women's Hour audience. How many times have you heard the woman behind the man? Does that get thrown at you a lot?

Does that get leveled at you a lot? And do you think your success and your achievements are slightly overshadowed because your husband is also so successful? You know something? I think we complement each other, actually. And I feel like I've had an enormous amount of recognition as a producer. So I don't feel like I'm overshadowed. I feel like we do different jobs. And I am very fulfilled with the job I do. And I love the relationship that we have, you know, the working relationship as well as the personal one, obviously. And do you feel as though your success is in any way defined by what Zach is doing?

No, no, I don't. Because, you know, there are things that I have produced that he's not directing. You know, I had a successful career in advertising before that, that, you know, had nothing to do with him. And I feel like, again, I feel like we really complement each other. I feel like, you know, I am the most of the time the only woman at the table. You know, a lot of the times when we're in meetings and I'm trying to change that. I mean, that's something, you know, again, I think that we talk a lot about what we see, the actors, even the director. But there's so many, you know, jobs on a film set, you know, especially our films. When we do these big films, there's over 500 people.

And I like to see more women in the technical roles, you know, in the camera department, in roles that, you know, we have, we traditionally work with a first AD who's a woman, and she's like one of a handful of women working at that level. So really being able to hire more women and because I can change that, I can shape what our crew looks like. And I can also, you know, one of the things I'm very proud of is that every single movie that we've done, we've brought in, like when we did Wonder Woman, we shot here, we brought 30 young women who are in like high school age that came to the set to learn. You know, when I did Justice League, I had two young women that worked basically most of the shoot and they were on, you know, social programs with the government. So these aren't

kids in film school. These are kids that are seeing what opportunities are out there because the kids in film school are already lucky. They're getting exposed to that. And I feel like that's how we start to change things by mentoring. You know, I've done the mentorship program with the academy, but also just bringing groups of kids to set and having them meet different department heads and seeing what opportunities there are. And that's something that's important to me. And I know you've done a lot of advocacy work in that and mentoring, as you said. I just want to bring people's attention to research from the San Diego State University,

which has tracked women's employment in 250 of the top grossing films in the US over the last two decades. And its newest report says that women accounted for 22% of all directors, writers, producers, executive producers, editors and cinematographers in 2023. Is anything changing? Is representation of women in the movie industry getting better I think it's slow and I think we need to make conscious decisions to hire women and I think that hopefully someday it won't be it'll just be the norm but I definitely think you have to make a choice and you have to make a choice when you're looking for people to have representation, not just with women, but with, you know, all people, you know. It doesn't sound like that's happening, though.

Yeah, it's slow. Change happens slowly. You know, I wish that there were more women. And that's why I'm trying to do something to change it. And I think that, you know, we all need to do our part, for sure. Yeah. What can be done though? I mean, the conversations are fine. I understand that. But in terms of tangible change, you say it's slow. What can be done? What more can be done? Well, you know, I think if more people actually made that effort, I think that that's important. You know, I think that some of the organizations are taking steps to include representation like the Producers Guild. Now, when you kind of apply for your producer's mark, you have to say what you did for representation, you know, and you don't I don't know if you get a qualifying PGA mark if you don't. You know, I don't know exactly how that shakes out, but I think more people will become aware of it. And I think little by little, I mean, for me, I can't change the whole industry, but I can change someone. I can offer an opportunity on the the last movie, one of our

young women wanted to be in the camera department. And since we were shooting two movies and it was a long shoot, she got her union card. That's a change. I help someone in getting to their goal. And for me, that's where I can see a real change. It might not be industry wide yet. But I can touch people's lives. And I can, you know, I can help other women and support other women. And I think that's what we need. We need to be supporting each other. And we need to be, again, making those conscious decisions. I think that's really important. Sounds like change, particularly in the movie industry, is quite incremental. Yes.

Now, with all the success that you've had, there does become a darker side to this with having the high profile that you have. And I know that you were caught up in an alleged scam where someone impersonated you. Tell us about that and how you came to find out that someone was pretending to be you in Hollywood. Oh, that was a horrible, like, it went on for about three years. And it was, he was known as the Hollywood con queen. He was actually a man who was impersonating me. You know, there were the scam took two parts, it was either getting below the line, you know, a lot of stunt people, stylists, trainers to go to Indonesia, and they were scamming them out of money. But for me, in particular, it was targeting young actors. And for someone who really fights for equality and fair treatment, and this was like the biggest nightmare because this person was getting these young actors and trying to role play very sexualized scenes with these actors. And the way I found out about it was that I was getting calls like they, you know, these agents would go, this didn't seem right.

And they'd call like the casting director I was working with. And they'd call my attorney or my press agent. And it would happen. And there would be a lot of victims for like a good two months, and then it would go quiet. And then it would, you know, raise, he would come back. And he was just making his rounds with all of these women really targeting and impersonating a lot of powerful women in the industry. It was horrible. And for people that aren't aware, a man who has been labeled the con queen of Hollywood was arrested in 2020 in the UK.

And last year, a British judge ruled that he could be extradited to the US to face eight charges. So you're caught up into this and your reputation, though, is on the line here. How did it impact your career, your life? Well, you know, everything is about your reputation. And I've worked really hard to, I think, be fair and to that's obviously not close to who I am or any of the values I stand for. So it was really, really tough. And a lot of the work we do, and this was also kind of in some of the pandemic, it was on the phone, you talk to people before you hire them and everything. And it was, it was scary. And I didn't, you know, you didn't know, at the time, we didn't know who

this was, where they were, you know, and just to think that they were in my name doing these horrible things to people was not it was it was a horrible time. Oh, I'm glad that you were able to get to the other end of that, because my goodness me, that must have been a terribly scary time for you. It really was. And for a lot of people. And I think it was scary, too, for all the people that got scammed and the people that actually went to Indonesia thinking that there was a job, that they were getting a break. And they, you know, some of them were put into very bad situations where they were afraid. So what's next for you? Will we be seeing more heroines on screen in action superhero movies? Always, always. I think, you know, having these strong female characters and, you know, I am very proud of the women in our movies, these characters, like whether it's Gorgo in 300 or our Lois Lane who saves Superman as much as, you know,

he saves her. Our women in Sucker Punch and now Cora. You know, I'm really, really just proud of that work and being able to bring these strong women to genre. It's so good to hear from you, Debra. Thank you so much for coming into the Woman's Hour studio. Oh, thank you so much. It's been really nice. Hollywood producer Deborah Snyder there.

Thank you very much. Great conversation. Now, next, today is the last day to register to vote in elections on the 2nd of May. They're taking place in 107 local authorities across England. Voters will also choose the Mayor of London, London Assembly members, 10 mayors outside the capital and 37 police and crime commissioners. So lots is at stake, clearly,

but the most recent data suggests that 4.3 million young people in England aged 18 to 34 aren't currently registered to vote. A separate survey by the youth-led non-partisan movement My Life, My Say also found that fewer than one in six young women aged 18 to 24 trust politicians and more than four in ten young women believe their vote won't actually make a difference in an election. Joining me now to discuss this is Sharon Gaffker, former Love Island contestant and now a spokesperson for the campaign Give an X, which is organised by My Life, My Say. It's calling on young people to get registered to vote. Good morning, Sharon. Good morning. Also with me is Rosie Campbell. She's Professor of Politics and

Director of the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at King's College, London. Sharon, so tell us more about what this data says and how many of these young people are women that aren't registered to vote? Because it's millions. Yeah, so actually, I think the amount of young people that are missing from the electoral roll could make up the UK's second largest city. And we know that a majority of these young people don't have any interest in showing up to vote because they don't believe that it will make a difference. And actually, I think it's around about 50% of these young people think that voting for reality TV actually makes more of a difference than voting in their local elections or in the general election. Really? Yeah, it's quite a stark difference.

And actually participating in reality TV and in politics quite actively, it's something that I've experienced throughout the years, yeah. Rosie, what's behind that? Why do young women in particular not feel as though their vote counts? Well, there isn't particularly a gap between young men and young women on this. Women are just as likely to participate in elections as men are. But indeed, you know, there is a big gap with younger people being less likely to register and less likely to vote. It's always been the case, but it has increased over time. And I think there's a disconnect between our politics and

the issues that motivate young people sometimes. And I think it can be a vicious circle because the more older people vote, the more likely political parties are to develop policies designed to please pensioners rather than young people who are struggling to get on the housing ladder, for example. So when we say over time, how long are we looking at and when did this trend begin, I suppose? Turnout in the UK has declined since the 1970s. Younger people have always been less likely to vote. And as that turnout decline has happened, a greater proportion of young people are therefore in the category of those who are not voting. Right. And in terms of the issues between young women and young men in particular, is there a difference in what they're concerned about. Now, that is where there's a difference. So they're just as likely to turn up and participate in an election. But there is a growing divide on some issues between young men and young women. So women under 50 are now more likely to support the Labour Party than the men. But if you look in the youngest generations, there's a big gap with women more likely to support the Greens, young men more likely to support the Conservatives or reform.

And on some issues around, particularly attitudes towards gender equality, there is a divergence with young women being, on some items, you know, more passionately feminist and young men more feeling that feminism has let everybody down. Have you recognised that trend, Sharon, when you've been speaking to people? Yeah, obviously as a Violence Against Women and Girls campaignerer actually talking to a lot of young women what I say

resonates with them and you know when I'm speaking I'm speaking for them and things that people that follow me have told me and people that I've met out at specific political events or young people engagement but it's one thing I've always found no matter the age category, but is particularly with young men is that I get a lot of negative backlash or comments thinking that being a feminist or feminism is going against young men as opposed to trying to put women on an equal footing to some of these young men. And another of the issues that we've highlighted is that the lack of trust that young women have in politicians, Where does that stem from, do you think? I mean, we're seeing it quite often, the level of misogyny or misogynoir that sits within Parliament. We saw what has been happening to Diane Abbott and the way that

politicians deal with it. And politicians should be a reflection of society when we see that, you know, we keep being told that we have more female MPs than ever. But are these female, firstly, it's disproportionate to the number of women in the UK, but are these women, female MPs actually really advocating for what young women are really looking for? So, you know, when I come to the ballot paper, is there an equal number of women that I'm potentially able to vote for? And are these women representative of intersectional feminism or not? What do you feel is behind this distrust among young women? Well I don't think young women are necessarily more distrustful than young men but I think some of the issues that

you've raised particularly resonant with young women obviously and we do have a gap in terms of there are fewer women in parliament but that really varies by party you know over 50 percent of Labour MPs are women so there's there's other parties really need to catch up. So I think that issue of seeing representation and intersectional representation is critical. So not being able to see it, so not believing it? Well, I think we know that it is important. Having more women in politics has made a huge difference to our society. Things like childcare, domestic violence, they were not political issues 30, 40 years ago. They're standard political issues now.

So there are issues that are off the table because certain groups of women are not as actively represented as others. So how do you... OK, so there's clearly young women out there who have issues that they're concerned about, but they believe that their vote won't make a difference. So how do you narrow that gap? How do you explain to them that voting is worth it, Sharon?

I think so going back to the Give a Next campaign, obviously, we were talking about how a lot of the time the issues we don't see ourselves represented. And that's the same with young people. And I think that, you know, voting isn't the only thing that we can do in democracy and to be to be active politically and to sway policymakers into making policy that actually does well for young people and for young women. But voting and registering to vote and starting to turn up to the election days is actually the start to having our voices being heard. The reason why policymakers aren't necessarily listening to these groups of people is because they're not the biggest people that turn out to voting. So why should they listen to you? Because they want to win votes. So to win votes, you have to be able to be able to go to vote. It's almost a catch 22, though, isn't it, Rosie? It is a catch 22. And I think sometimes we've been very lucky in this country for a long time that perhaps we've got to the point we can take democracy a bit for granted. But democracy is

fragile. And we need young people to get involved, join political parties and change them from the inside, so that we have a democracy that works for us, because it won't if we sit on the sidelines. What could be the impact on the local election results if we see that the trends from this survey actually become a reality? I'm afraid that turnout in local elections is very low and you know very very low amongst young people so there'll be nothing unexpected if that's what happens in this set of local elections. And then we know that there's likely to be a general election by the end of this year so then how is that impacted? How can you make sure that what happens in the local elections isn't then happening again for the general elections and that more young people are getting involved?

Well, I think that parties and politicians have got a moral duty to put forward policies that will excite and motivate young people. To be as strategic as you describe and just go after those who are definitely going to vote is long term catastrophe, because in the longer term, today's younger people are going to be tomorrow's middle aged people and we need to actually draw former Love Island contestant and now a spokesperson for the campaign Give an X. Thank you both for coming on to Woman's Hour. I just want to come back to a couple of the messages that we've been receiving when I asked about how you've dealt with unsolicited requests. Lots of you getting in touch still. Sophie says, when I was on a school trip at the V&A Museum in London, aged about 12, some boys from another school came up to me and commented on how I was flat chested, feeling outraged.

I replied, it looks like you haven't got much of a package in your trousers either. They were not expecting that. I bet they weren't. Emily says, when traveling by train as a medical student, I was being pestered by a man who wouldn't accept that I was not interested. My response was to open my pathology textbook to a chapter on malignant diseases of the male genitalia. The pictures were very graphic, I bet. Needless to say, he backed off fast.

It's not and never has been a compliment to receive persistent unwanted attention thank you so much for the messages i'll try and get to a few more later in the program you can get in touch via text and via social media as always now recently we asked you to tell us about the things that you've taken up after a long time today we feature Joanne who has rediscovered her rhythm after a couple of decades. She told our reporter Sarah Swaddling all about it. So I started when I was about 18. So it was lessons then gravitated to a boyfriend that was in a band and so I got the drummer to teach me a bit more and so to play on their kit um eventually got my own drum kit and kind of just dabbled in and out for years was in a little band but we never performed we

it was just a constant cycle of practicing in church halls um and I can never say that I was absolute you know I wasn't great at it but I could you know I could I could hold a tune and a rhythm that was about it and and that's how it was dabbled for years um then got married and I guess you know life takes over and those sorts of hobbies just it just drifted away I didn't and then I didn't do it for a long time and I had children and um all of that um then when I got to about 40 my husband said maybe I should take up drumming at that point um uh yeah so I then sort of started to dabble again but it never it was just playing in the spare room um and um yeah move on a few years and I'm no longer married um I I really love music and I think once I got divorced I realised it was a real joy in my

life and I wanted to get back into it. So I started seeing a lot of bands that I hadn't seen for a long time. I started to travel on my own to go to gigs. I flew to Holland to see a band a few years ago. First time I'd ever been to a concert on my own uh really scary but also really invigorating it's wonderful thing and I've done it many times since and at that time I thought actually I'm going to take up drumming again and so um because I've moved to a smaller house I couldn't have a kit in my house so I signed up for something called the jam drum school a music school for adults and it's for people like me who want to take up music and just want to play with other musicians and so I started doing that and I now do that once a week and I play with other music

other oldies like me we learn a song and then we play together at the end of the evening and it's and it's amazing um I'm so happy to be doing it. And I've met another group of people who we now are a little band that rehearse in the studio once a week, purely for our own pleasure. How does it feel to be drumming again? Yeah, I think that it's probably, yeah, maybe it's a bit of a cliche, isn't it, to say that, oh, is it a release of emotions? It's not. It's I think if you're somebody that enjoys music and you're rhythmical, you know, you have rhythm.

I really like dancing. So maybe it's a bit of that. I think it's the whole process of playing with other people that really is the pleasure when what you're doing fits with what another musician's doing and another musician's and together you produce a sound which is really pleasing and it's a song and it's sometimes it's not pleasing sometimes we're completely out of time but yeah there's just some intrinsic pleasure in playing music with other people and I can't say it's even with any skill but us playing together and trying and achieving something and getting better over time has been fantastic you've talked about the collective aspect of music making but is there a bit of you that really loves performing and showing off as well well actually there's not I

mean the bands want to play more stuff live they really want to I really don't no I quite like being at the back and not being seen but last year we played at the Bosworth Music Festival so it's a market Bosworth lovely lovely town in Leicestershire and they have a big arts festival every year and the music school provides the music all day on a stage and that was the first time ever that i've played in front of people and that was surprisingly pleasant it wasn't quite as scary as i thought it was going to be and it was a proper stage i mean it was a big stage an outdoor stage um i liked it actually because I was hidden behind the other musicians and the amps and things so um I liked it when it happened but it's not something that I desire for its own sake no music making is one of those things that

often people have a bad experience with it in childhood or or at school what would you say to people who might be or women who might be thinking do I dare give music making another go I mean I would say what have we got to lose I think if there's something great about reaching your 50s and you know for me I'll be 60 this year I'm more courageous um I say I'm more confident and yet I've just said to you I don't like playing in front of people but you know I mean the fact that I travel to gigs on my own and I do do things that scare me um I would never have done that as a younger woman so I would say absolutely do it. You know, you realise that, and another cliche, life is so short and you'd be surprised at the things that you can do if you just try.

And music is so pleasurable and you don't have to be that great at it. We certainly aren't, but we absolutely love it. Joanne there talking to our reporter Sarah Swadling about taking up drumming again. And if you're feeling inspired, we still want to hear your stories. Maybe you started up something that you used to do when you were younger. It can be absolutely anything. Get in touch with us via text 84844, on WhatsApp [phone] or on social media at bbc women's hour and you can also email us as always on the women's hour website now my next

guest sitting in front of me has been described as an astounding stage talent. Oh, you like that. Oh my God. You like that description. Thank you so much. Rosie Sheehy stars in the play Macanel, inspired by Sophie Treadwell's 1928 production of the same name. It's based on the sensational trial of Ruth Snyder, who was found guilty of murdering her husband and executed by electric chair in New York. Good morning. Good morning.

Also joining us to discuss how a play that was originally produced almost 100 years ago is still relevant to modern day audiences, Dr. Jessie Ramey, Associate Professor of Women's and Gender Studies and History at Chatham University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the program, Dr. Jessie. Good morning. Nice to be with you. Now, Rosie, I sat in the audience watching Mackinac recently, and at the end, I was exhausted just watching you. It's such a physical powerhouse of a performance that you put in. How was it playing that character?

Yeah, you're right. It is exhausting to do two in a day. I'm kind of like, wow. It's like, oh my God, by the end. But yeah, it's expressionism. So it's that style of theatre that's incredibly physical and direct and, you know, visual. It's like being in a graphic novel, I feel sometimes in that yellow triangle.

So yeah, it's kind of brilliant. It is exhausting emotionally, I guess, but it's nine episodes. So you're being kind of propelled along. I sometimes just say to myself, just step on the train. Just take the first step. Yeah, just get on the train

and then it'll take you to the end. Well, it was a phenomenal performance. Thank you. Jessie, first, let's just get some context here. Who was Ruth Snyder? Because this is a character that has inspired so many different books, plays, films. But tell us, who was Ruth Snyder? Well, Ruth Snyder was a pretty average middle class, white, suburban housewife living outside of New York City

when she had an affair with, of all things, a corset salesman. And the two of them plotted to kill her husband. And so the trial became a media sensation. She was absolutely a household name. As you said, this is 1927 when Ruth Snyder and Judd Gray committed this murder. So why was it such a sensation? Because this got so much publicity, everything, the trial, the execution itself was well publicised. This was huge. The trial was a media circus. It's hard to overstate what a big deal this was. It was on the front page of all the papers. The tabloid press and there were souvenir vendors selling little sash weight stick pins. They were selling counterfeit tickets to get into this trial. Really a massive media circus. Everybody was anybody sat through this trial. came from, you had folks like the filmmaker D.W. Griffith was in the courtroom, the songwriter

Irving Berlin, the producers of the soon-to-be-written Chicago, the musical, of course, about women murderers in prison. And the author, James Cain, went to this trial and based his very classic film, Double Indemnity, on this case. So there's a real long cultural tale on the Ruth Snyder case. Wow. And something that struck me was that the photo, there was a photo that was put on the front page of one of the biggest newspapers in the country as Ruth Snyder was being executed, as she was being electrocuted on the chair. Yes. So she was found guilty, she and her lover both. They were both executed in New York in 1928 in the electric chair. She was not the first woman to be electrocuted. But this very famous photograph was taken by a journalist who snuck a camera into the

execution chamber and snapped the picture. It was on the front page, as you said, the next day. It was a huge scandal. It led to changes, actually, in the way they handled executions. But that also created even more drama around an already very large media circus. Rosie, you're sitting across from me in the studio, shaking your head at some of that. How much were you aware of before you took on the role that your character is inspired by, obviously being Ruth Snyder? Yeah, I was very aware. I initially saw the play when I was about 20 years old and was completely blown away.

I saw a drama school production of it. And then after seeing that, went away and did some reading, which, and there's so much on her. But then our play veers off. I play a young woman who eventually is named Helen Jones halfway through the play. Well, we don't find out until right towards the end what her actual name is. Yeah.

That was obviously done on purpose. Yeah, it is. I think it's slight. You hear Helen in like episode five and then she's named in the trial. And I think Sophie Treadwell's trying to, it's sort of a playwright's device to sort of start to name her or make her individual

when things start to become criminal or illegal or illicit. But before that, episodes one to four, she's named as the young woman. So I suppose that's making a point that it could be anyone. How would you describe the character that you play? Because I was watching her so closely, just, I suppose, engrossed by the claustrophobic nature of her surroundings and how she wanted to break free from absolutely every scene apart from one. Yeah, yeah. It's, well, I think she's incredibly soft at her core, very shy. I mean, she has all the qualities of a human being. We see her really vicious quite early on. But I often think that she'd prefer to just be by herself. She needs somebody who's, or she's somebody who needs time by herself and yet that's not going to happen at all in her life. She's always overstimulated, always drowned

by the noise or by being nitpicked by her mum or the minutiae of life, you know, the intricacies of getting the tube and having a man stand too close to you or having unwanted attention, male attention in an office or gossiping or yes, as well as the big things, which are like convention and female expectation of having a baby or yeah. And with that came some mental health issues. What role does mental health play in your character's life? Because we definitely see postnatal depression, which perhaps wouldn't have been diagnosed as that in the 1920s yeah but we would know it as that today yeah um sophie treadwell does an incredible job of not giving any diagnosis um i know that she herself suffered nervous conditions as a young woman and then she suffered with them for the rest of her life but whenever I've researched her there's no real um diagnosis so I guess she's trying to depict

somebody who we might say is neurodivergent we might say is sensitive to sound or to light um but I so yeah it played a big role I sort of did did a lot of research on mania and depression. And yeah, as you said, postnatal depression. But I think the point that Sophie's trying to make is that it could be if you put any human being under that much duress, those conditions develop as a side effect as a symptom. It's not something that she was necessarily born with or it's in her DNA. So environmental, right? Yeah, yeah, that's it. Intrinsic. And Jessie, you've written about this play, Sophie Treadwell's play, of which Mackinac is based, on how it speaks to women's roles within society at that time and the expectations put on them. What can you tell us about that?

Yeah, the Ruth Snyder case really at its core was about gender. And the reason that it was such a big media sensation was that it really is in this fraught moment, right? In 1927, 1928, this is just a few years after women have gained access to the vote at least white women in the united states have just gained access to the vote in 1920 but women still can't serve on juries in most states so she's not going to be tried by a jury of her peers for instance and so many rights have not yet been won by women and yet it's the 1920s it's the 1920s. It's the flapper age. It's the jazz age. There's all this concern about women getting the vote and becoming modernized. So the concerns and the conversation happening around the case are all about are women getting too many rights, right? So you've got men writing into newspapers saying, if Ruth Snyder is not executed, then no man is going to be safe to sleep in his bed.

So lots of concerns about modernity, about gender, about whether or not Ruth was too sexual or not feminine enough. So those are the kinds of conversations happening in this case. And the themes, it seems, Rosie, are still relevant today. The themes that are explored within Macanel are still relevant to audiences today. Yeah, absolutely. What does that tell us about where we are today, I guess? Are we still fighting women? Are women still fighting for the same things? Yeah. Yeah, we are.

Yeah? Yeah. There, we are. Yeah? Yeah. There's that whole gender pay gap still. I think everything that's the themes of every episode still happen to every woman today. It's incredibly relatable, that kind of gossiping in the office, that chasing sexual freedom,

having a baby, trying to rebel against convention, I guess,, having a baby, trying to rebel against convention, I guess, or have a choice. Have a choice whether you want a baby or not. Should you focus on your career? Do you come from a background of poverty? Do you come from money? Everyone's conditions are different, but it's incredibly relatable, all of it.

And postnatal depression can happen to anyone. It can happen to any mother. It's a natural occurrence, you know. Yeah. So it's how, before we get to the criminal act or before we even get to what's illegal and what's not, the first half of the play is definitely, I think, incredibly relatable. Or even having a mother who nags.

That female relationship between mother and daughter. Yeah, very important and so relevant. And a really, really powerful performance from you in that play, Rosie. Thank you so much for joining us, Rosie Sheehy and Dr. Jesse Rainey over in the States. Thank you for waking up to speak to us. Much appreciated. Mackinac is on at the Old Vic in London until the 1st of June. And now before we go, I just wanted to come to a couple more texts.

When I asked you about how you dealt with unsolicited requests or behaviours, Nicola has said as a 20-year-old bride in 1985, the photographer asked if I was wearing a garter. My response. Yes, but you're not going to see it. Not what he was used to. Also, Robin has got in touch. I suddenly appreciated what women have to put up with when leaving a Burns supper resplendent in Highlands dress. A woman I had never met before decided to investigate what was worn under the kilt. With a curt, kindly keep your hands to yourself, madame. I left, mortified, but a little wiser.

Thank you for joining us on Women's Hour. I'll be back tomorrow. And that's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4. I just remember shouting and screaming, get off my sister. Life as we know it can change in an instant. I was just punching frantically. I wasn't going to let it take away my sister if I could help it. A single transformative moment.

I heard this engine sort of go past and I was like, what is that? And mum had looked up into the rearview mirror and she went, oh my God, he's here. I'm Dr Sian Williams and this is the programme that explores the most dramatic, personal and poignant stories from the very people who've experienced them. I always pass it there and say, hi John, hi John. You've got to find some joy in the sorrow, you know. You've got to find some joy. Subscribe to Life Changing on BBC Sounds. no pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.