Woman's Hour - Home Schooling, Reusable Products and Coronavirus

Episode Date: March 23, 2020

After school closures across the UK many parents will be at home trying to support their children do some school work whilst also working from home and 'social distancing' themselves. Are there lessons to be learned from those who already home educate?Ten organisations across the UK including Rape Crisis and Ending Violence Against Women have issued a joint statement about the impact of Covid 19could have on the lives on women and children. Recent reports from China and Italy show an increase in domestic violence since the pandemic began. One Chinese province said reporting had increased threefold. Jane talks to Lucy Hadley Campaigns and Policy Manager for Women’s Aid about what action they would like to see taken. We hear the story of Goli, an Afghan born refugee who used to live in Iran but is now settled in Denmark with her younger daughter Baran, now featured in Girl Taken, a Radio 4 series and podcast. In this Woman's Hour interview Goli talks about how her older daughter Bru came to be separated from her and the extraordinary lengths she has taken to see her again.And with people reporting low stocks of nappies, sanitary products and other regular household items on supermarket shelves, we take a look at what reusable alternatives are available. Is this the time for cloth nappies to make a comeback? What about reusable sanitary protection? And what can vinegar, bicarb and beeswax do for you in the kitchen? Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Monday the 23rd of March 2020. Hello, good morning to you. At BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, if you want to ping us a question this morning about home education, it could be day one for you. You may be somewhat reluctantly taking it up.

And if you'd like some advice, this is the place to be. So please do feel free to contact us today on that or indeed on anything else that is on your mind. Our website, of course, is the place to go to email us, bbc.co.uk forward slash women's hour. We welcome all comers there. I've got to tell you that home education isn't something everyone's all that enthusiastic about.

Grace tweeted earlier, seriously, if it's not enough, we're now required to do our jobs from home, deep clean, fashion three meals a day out of the random shiz that's been in our cupboards for four years. We also now have to homeschool our kids as well and you're going to give us tips.

So Grace, you're not going to enjoy the first bit of the programme, but you never know. You might pick something up. Let's talk to Anna Massau, who has three young children. She writes a blog called Homeschool Guru. She was a secondary school teacher for eight years. Her kids are six, four and one. And Professor Helen Gillespie, she teaches teachers at a university. She's a former primary school teacher. Her children are 12 and nine. Now, Anna Dusso, I do apologise, not Anna Masso,

so that's one cock up already. Anna, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, you are someone who has chosen to home educate. So take us back to how you started and what it was like and how you established order in your home school. Sure. Well, we started in reception year with our daughter and sort of didn't really think of any other option, didn't really consider homeschooling, although we knew that it was an available option, but that was certainly never the plan. And we had mostly an OK first year. There were some concerns that I had that I had not thought that that was anything other than exactly what is to be expected of school. Sometimes they don't want to do their homework, things like that.

I wasn't particularly concerned. And then we got into the first year and with the change of teacher came a completely different tone, different vibe. My daughter was disengaged at school. It became evident that the first year teacher, the receptionist year teacher had been superb and that she was struggling with a bit of a change. Okay, I'm sorry to bustle in. It's just that we've got a lot of material we want to get through this morning.

Sure, sure, sure. I just really want to get some advice from you on how to start day one. If unlike, I mean, you're a trained teacher, I'm not. The vast majority of our listeners aren't. What sort of atmosphere do they need to create? Yeah, I mean, it needs to be productive. I think that timetables are very useful because you can get a sense of what you like in a week. Recovering, it's useful to get your children to do that with you, not for you to be the person implementing the timetable on them.

Having said that, the best way to get children engaged, what I've learned through home education, is to let them pursue their interests. I know that's going to be alien to a lot of people, but I think that is the way that you're going to be the happiest over the next couple of weeks and months. Bearing in mind your children will be plugged back into school at some point, and at that point the teacher will pick up whatever national curriculum agendas they need to follow.

Okay, let's bring in Helena Gillespie. This is an important one because it's impossible for most of us to even begin to think about how to teach our children. Is it worth anyone having a bash what would you suggest well um i think that it is important that we make sure that we give our children time um it's an incredibly anxious time and even if they're not expressing it our children will be anxious so um my i think my first piece of advice to parents would be if you can only do half an hour and make it a really great half an hour to start with do that and then get the lego out um you know or get the art out or kick them out in

the garden if you can or whatever and and try to build up from there um i think it's really important that um we both both both parents and children try and cut each other a little bit of slack at the moment. So I definitely advocate, you know, as Anna said, thinking about happiness and trying to start off gradually. Yes, without radiating your own tension, obviously. We also ought to say, of course, a lot of people, for a start, don't even have the space for a table. How do you go about attempting education in that sort of environment yeah i think space is a is a is a main a major challenge um and i think particularly if you've got parents who are trying to spread out and work and kids are trying to spread out and work that's going to be really difficult so um we've got a sort of in our house we've got a kind of um turn-taking schedule

um and some demarcated areas. And we're going to be really strict about that. And we're also going to be strict about putting away and tidying away at the end of the day. But ultimately, if there's no space to do anything else with children at the moment, I think as long as you are reading with your children of all ages, as long as you're trying to do maybe a little bit of writing or maths or other activities, it's really important to try to make that sort of learning interaction positive because, you know, one of my worries on this is that it could really build up

tension at a time when everybody's already feeling tense. One real bone of contention a lot of people are saying on Twitter or were saying over the weekend the household might have one laptop I mean that's that's if you're lucky obviously there'll be people listening at home now who are trying to work from home and they need their laptop but the kids will want that too. Absolutely you know and I've sort of seen over the weekend as i've been sort of chatting to my various friends about there's lots of different expectations from different schools and i think very very well intentioned a lot of schools are trying to

communicate digitally with children quite quite regularly um but my feeling is that ultimately the headteachers that I've spoken to over the weekend really just want you to do your best to stay in touch and help the children stay in touch with the school. But I think a schedule is going to be all important. So my view is that we all have to prioritise ourselves at different times. You know, I know from my own experience this morning,

online learning platforms have already fallen over once. So it might be best to also think about what can be done off screen. Right. We know as well, of course, the BBC is offering resources via BBC ByteSize. I gather there's some terrific stuff there available right now. They're also putting more really good history documentaries available on the iPlayer. So if you're a history student, that might be a good place to go. I understand we've got Anna back. So Anna, what if the children are really reluctant, not least because they are

pretty uncertain about what's going on around them. What would you say about that? Yeah, I think that probably the best way to target that is to look and listen to your children, to what they would like to do. It's undeniable, and I completely agree with everything Helen said. I think that schools have a real hierarchy of subjects, you know, favouring maths, English, science, and then with arts right at the bottom. You don't know whether your child is maybe wanting to do mathematics that morning. I wouldn't push them. I wouldn't say it is necessary, helpful at this point

to try to put the teacher hat on yourself and try to force your children through a curriculum. But at the moment, the world is on the floor. At the moment, we'll all just be happy to get out of this. I think it's much more important to listen to what your child's interests are, ensure that they get enough sleep, ensure that they're eating properly, engaging nicely with their family, and try to cultivate those non-academic skills, which actually in adult life serve you just as well as the academic qualifications that you emerge with.

Yeah, we do live in extremely difficult times, though, and I wonder, space or lack of it is surely an immense challenge for many, many people. And certainly around my way, the parks are now shut. It is, we know that we should be staying in as much as possible. Helena, how on earth do you achieve that with any degree of cordiality when you've got, say, three under eights in the house or in the flat? Yeah, I think that's going to be a major challenge and I think, you know,

it's not necessarily parents' teaching skills but parents' organisational skills that are going to be challenged here. I think it's also important to make sure that you're using the space that you have. So, you know, if you're not going to teach your kids to do the chores now, it's never going to happen. So, you know, if somebody's working in the kitchen, finishing the washing up, that might be a time when another person can maybe have the laptop. It might be a time when somebody else can have the kitchen table to do some art or whatever.

And that's going to take some coordination. But, you know, I think that what we need to do is to try to be creative. And as Anna says, try to find learning in lots of different situations. Because, you know, we are trying in my house at least to see this as a bit of an opportunity to do some things with the children that we haven't had time to do because, you know, we both work and they're both out at school and so on. So try to think about all of those spaces that you can learn to do things and not just think, well, the learning has to happen around the table

or around the computer. Thank you very much. Some interesting thoughts coming in on this at BBC Women's Hour, but we'll leave it there for the time being. You heard there from Helena Gillespie and from Anna Dusso. I don't think teaching people at home is going to be something that, let's face it,

the vast majority of us could do with any great ease. What made me laugh earlier today, and not much is making us laugh at the moment, but my Five Live colleague, Rachel Burden, did tweet earlier, one of the mums on our local WhatsApp group has already designated today an inset day.

I think a lot of people will really understand that. What's this from Deborah? Thankfully, we're not being asked to teach our A-level and GCSE-level sons at home. Schools are sending them work to complete and return online. Families with no computer or just one, who gets it, the parent or the kids? And what about a refund for my eldest who's missed half a year of uni because of the strikes? Yes, the strikes.

We'll have to just put everything in perspective, I think, won't we, for the time being. Please do feel free to get involved with the programme today. Now, recent reports from China and Italy show an increase, unfortunately, in domestic violence since the pandemic began. One Chinese province said that reporting had increased threefold. Well, we know today that 10 organisations across the UK, including Rape Crisis and Ending Violence Against Women, have got together. They've issued a joint statement. We can talk now to Lucy Hadley, who's Campaigns and Policy Manager for Women's Aid. Lucy Hadley, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, in brief, what is it that you all would like

to happen? We want to see the government put women and children experiencing domestic abuse and other forms of violence against women and girls central in the response to COVID-19. It's a really challenging and difficult time for everyone as your programme has covered. But we know for women and children experiencing domestic abuse, home is not a place of safety and the experience of being in enforced isolation with an abuser at this time of, you know, we're seeing increased economic stress, tension and anxiety for everyone,

for people living with domestic abuse, that's a really serious concern. And we're very worried about the safety and access to support for women and children experiencing domestic abuse. Right. Let's deal with the practicalities then. In terms of access to services, we're all being encouraged to stay at home. It's going to be very difficult to make a call or contact an organisation who can help because you're going to be at home, it's going to be very difficult to make a call or contact an organisation who can help because you're going to be at home and your abuser could be there as well. That's right. It's a really big concern. We want to send a clear message that support and help is out there, is available. The National Domestic Abuse Helpline operates 24-7.

But how can you access it if you can't make a call? Also, there are other forms of support that are available. So Women's Aid hosts a live chat support service, which provides online-based support, which some women tell us they find easier and safer to do if the perpetrator is close by. If you're in immediate danger, of course, the response is always to ring 999

and the police are there and they're there to protect you. There's a range of different ways that you can access support from domestic abuse services, both locally and nationally. Many are adapting their ways of working during this challenge to provide more remote and online forms of support too. So support is absolutely out there, but we really recognise this is a very scary time for women and children. Of course. We know the Chancellor, for example, has made a couple of public pronouncements about huge amounts of taxpayers' money being pumped into all kinds of initiatives and schemes. Are you actually saying that you feel that your particular area has been missed?

Is that what you're worried about? We're very concerned about that at the moment. We know that demand for domestic abuse services already outstripped supply. 64% of referrals to refuges in England between 2018 and 2019 were declined. And if we see, you know, even further demand from the impacts of COVID-19 for help and support with domestic abuse, we're really worried our services aren't going to be able to sustain that, particularly as many are small, they're delivered by charities, they have largely women-only workforces who are going to be hit by the larger caring burden over the coming months. It's really good that the government has categorised domestic abuse frontline workers as key workers during this time so they can access childcare for their children.

But absolutely, we need to see that financial injection of support from the government now. Right. OK. Any idea how much money are you calling for and where will it go? We need to see funding for services to adapt to remote working, so investment in technology, which many of our services don't currently have. We also need to look at what the demand for their help looks like in the coming weeks and months and make an estimate on what kind of additional resources they're going to need. But to put this in comparison, the Canadian government recently announced 50 million for refuges and sexual assault centres. So I think, you know, we need to see the government take quick steps to ensure this life-saving sector is sustainable.

We talked actually on Friday's programme to Amber Rudd, who was the Conservative Home Secretary not that long ago. Her point was, and she felt very passionate about this, that she believed that women had been left out of some of the key strategy-making parts of our national conversation conversation that the so-called war cabinet was entirely male. Would you agree that she was onto something there? I think that's absolutely right. If we don't have women at the decision making table, we're not going to understand and make decisions based on the impacts the virus is having specifically on them. We've got a lot of guidance from the government on all sorts of things related to the pandemic, but there's no guidance currently for if you're not safe at home and if you're experiencing domestic abuse. There's nothing formal published on the government's website about that.

And I think, you know, we that that the experiences and impacts on women are missed if women aren't there at the decision making table so I we'd completely support that and call for equal representation and you know a really specific focus on on the impacts that this virus is having on women's lives. Our earlier conversation was about a home education and just how challenging it is, even in the best of circumstances, to try to recreate education in your own home. We know that domestic abuse is not in any way restricted to one part of our society, is it? There is a temptation to see it as being something that happens perhaps in poorer families, but that simply isn't true, is it? We need to make that absolutely clear. That's exactly right. Domestic abuse affects all of us. And women from every social class and every walk of life are impacted. We should say, of course, there are indeed some male victims of domestic violence.

That's right. And whilst everyone can experience controlling and coercive behavior and domestic abuse um we do see that those who are from particularly marginalized groups face the biggest barriers to support so women with insecure immigration status disabled women and black and minoritized women face the biggest barriers to seeking help. So we need to send a clear message that, you know, domestic abuse is unacceptable. It is because you're self-isolating, you know, and it's a time of stress for everyone. That doesn't mean abuse is acceptable.

That needs to be a very clear message. We also need to send clear signals to people about where they can access support. And then we need to see the government act to ensure those particularly vulnerable and marginalised can access support. And, you know, we're seeing some announcements about how the homelessness community are going to be supported. But we need to see women and children escaping domestic abuse and fearing for their lives as central within that. Right. I should say we are going to be discussing homelessness a little bit later this week. It's also worth saying that one listener has said on Twitter that we should also mention parents who are victims of violence inflicted on them by their children. That is also something that

unfortunately happens. A tweet here from a listener who says, I'm a frontline refuge worker. We've been designated key workers by the government, as you say, and I'm continuing to commute into London for my job, but we desperately need funding for alternative options for women. Alternative options, what could they or should they be, Lucy?

I think we need some clear action to ensure that safe self-contained accommodation can be available for women and children. Like I said we've seen those kind of announcements about the rough sleeping population and how they're going to be supported. We know women and children are more likely to be in temporary accommodation in B B&Bs, in hotels, in unsuitable, unsafe hostels. We need to ensure that there's suitable and safe self-contained provision for women and children that may need to self-isolate because of the virus. But it's really important to make clear that refuge services are not just a bed, they're not just a roof over someone's head they're specialist um support services that enable and empower women and children to cope and recover from their experiences and give them that wraparound holistic support

they need to um to cope with the experience of domestic abuse so just simply saying you know we we turn hotels into additional refuges that's not going to work unless you've got the support the support staff there that make it a refuge and a place of safety. So you're asking for the government to do something do you expect a response or demand a response imminently how do you think this is going to play out? We're working very hard you know across lots of different sectors, including the police and with the new independent domestic abuse commissioner to try and call on the government to make some clear statements about the action they're going to take. And we really hope,

given the seriousness of domestic abuse, that they will. Of course. And we should also say that the government, there is no doubt that people at the top of government, I don't suppose any of them have slept more than three or four hours for the last fortnight. There will be people listening who are really pretty impressed by the efforts that the government has made. Many people, I'm sure, are impressed. You're not suggesting that you've been deliberately forgotten? What are you saying lies at the heart of you having to sign this joint letter today do you honestly feel you've been missed i think i think many issues and and um many challenges that we're going to experience over the coming months are have have um not been at the top of the agenda um or the top of the priority list and for obvious reasons you know it's it's an

incredibly challenging time for the machinery of government um to be able to respond to every vulnerable group that's going to be impacted by this this pandemic we just really need to ensure that that this doesn't lead to preventable deaths from domestic abuse and doesn't lead to the escalation and increased physical and emotional harm to women and children. We really recognise the large package of support that the government has committed to, to ensuring communities can cope with this crisis. We just need to ensure that vulnerable women and children

are part of that too. Thank you, Lucy. Lucy Hadley, who's Campaigns and policy manager for Women's Aid. So later this week, we are going to discuss homelessness, as I said. And also, if your children, while it's inevitable, they are going to be looking at their screens because they don't have much alternative. But how do you teach children how to distinguish between fact and fiction, particularly when it comes to stories like the coronavirus? Just how irresponsibly is that issue being covered? In some parts of the internet, you'll find stuff that, frankly,

you would not want your children to see, and you certainly wouldn't want them to believe it. So how do you try and get the right information across to them? And on the Woman's Hour website, later on today, you'll find a short film starring the brilliant Daisy May Cooper, who talks about what she learned from making the fantastic BBC comedy mockumentary This Country, which I have to say has been my little treat over the weekend.

I've been working my way through this country's third series for at least the fourth time, but I've really enjoyed it. So you can find Daisy Mo Cooper on the Woman's Hour website. Now, we know that it's pretty tough at the moment to get hold of certain things, nappies. There were reports over the weekend of people struggling to get the right size nappies, tampons, pads, kitchen sprays. What can you do to source this stuff or to do it rather differently? Natalie Fee is the author of How to Save the World for Free and founder of the plastic pollution campaign group City to See. Natalie, good morning to you.

Good morning, Jane. So let's discuss, first of all, nappies. Disposables, certainly I use them. I didn't think of an alternative you're going to tell me there is another way on you go there is although it was 16 years ago since i last used them um on my son um there is a huge range of of um washable nappies out there and and i think they are increasingly popular actually and now i've heard reports of some of our home workers at city to see who are

getting back into washable nappies because they've got a bit more time on their hands they're at home looking after the children. They've got a bit more time on their hands how have they achieved that? Well as in as in they're actually at home they're not having to commute into work some of them are are sort of are self-isolating so yeah i mean there's lots of different types obviously at the moment we've got some good weather as well so we can actually hang them out on the line to dry but i think it can be expensive initially getting yourself set up so there's a lot of second-hand online resources that you can use to get second-hand nappies from right um in terms of um sanitary um, I don't really like that expression,

but anyway, tampons and pads. I did have to go to my local corner shop had them, but I couldn't get them in the big shops. I guess one of my tips would be don't go to your usual supplier. Supermarkets aren't the answer to everything. Your good old corner shop may well have the stuff that you want. but period pants are something that you can buy and how do you rate them Natalie? Yeah well there's a huge range of washable menstrual products out there now the the marketplace for reusable menstrual products has absolutely exploded in the past three years and definitely for me my favourites are the washable pads and washable period pants because I preferred the external products I've

tried menstrual cups to varying degrees of success but I think now is is actually a really good time again we're home-based so for a lot of us that are home-based we can actually give these products a try because some of them do take a bit of getting used to like menstrual cups you might need to try a few different can we can we just avoid suggesting that people while away a bit of time during their self-isolation by getting to know their moon cup or menstrual cup that might be even peak woman's hour even for me that actually but the washable period pants can also be used for incontinence as well so if people are struggling to get hold of um disposable pads, then these products have like

anti-odor and sort of properties and they're machine washable. So they save a huge amount of resources. And over time, they save quite a lot of money as well. So yeah, washable pads, washable period pants, menstrual cups and reusable applicators. These do actually exist now as well the the inventions are all around us now so for people that actually still um who find it uncomfortable maybe using non-applicated tampons they can use reusable applicators and really reduce the amount of plastic they're using throughout the lifetime of their periods now um kitchen sprays we need to make very clear the stuff that is quite tricky to get hold of at the moment, there is no denying, is the antibacterial.

What you can suggest, though, is an alternative that you can make with the usual sort of stuff you have knocking around that isn't antibacterial, but will at least buff up a surface if that's what you're bothered about. Exactly. And funnily enough, I saw on my shelf this weekend a 1974 Woman's Hour almanac. And I thought, I wonder what DIY recipes they've got in there. Tell me. They have not changed. It's basically white vinegar and bicarb. I mean, but perhaps instead of adding cologne to it, we're going to be adding things like tea tree oil and lavender, which have got antimicrobial properties. Obviously, we're not going to say that they're going to kill sort of all bacteria, but they'll certainly smell nicer.

So you can make your own washable wipes as well by cutting up old rags and T-shirts into squares and soaking them in white vinegar and bicarbon essential oils. And you can even put them back into your wipes pack to keep them moist. And then you can just throw those in the washing machine. Again, refilling your your cleaning products the sort of the plastic cleaning products refilling that with the white vinegar and bicarb mix is a way that you can just spray down your surfaces and keep them clean can i just ask

you a completely open question because i think we're all feeling a little bit frayed at the moment how are you how are you feeling natalie um? Well, it's a good question. Personally, I have health anxiety, which is something that generally I cope with on a day-to-day level, but I found that it's been particularly triggered through this crisis. My dad's ill, so obviously that's a concern. But yeah, at work, we're coping with it. We've sent everybody home. Our campaigns are being impacted by it because obviously we've run a big refill campaign. And of course, at the moment,

we're not being encouraged to refill things. So it's certainly affecting us, affecting us all. But I think it's also a time when we're seeing incredible cohesion and connections between neighbours in our communities and that's something I'm really really grateful for yes we do need to be positive about the good stuff we are all seeing around us and and the good stuff we're feeling I just I think there's a lot of conversations going on I've spoken more to people that I wouldn't normally speak to over

the last couple of weeks than at any time in my adult life. So having said that, though, Natalie, I'm struggling to sleep and I suspect I speak for many when I say that. I think we're all a bit frazzled, aren't we? Yeah, I think very much so. And I think I'm sort of encouraging people to meditate more and to take care of themselves and look after their mental health as well as their physical health. But that's certainly what I've been experiencing here on my street in Bristol, the level of connection between our neighbours. They did a two-metre Macarena dance out on the street for the families that are self-isolating

to try and cheer them up. So we're seeing some really lovely moments amid the chaos. But you kept at a safe distance. They did. They were two metres apart. All right. I really appreciate your honesty. Thank you, Natalie. Thanks for having me. Natalie Fee, author of How to Save the World for Free.

Now, if you want a podcast to listen to, this is one I highly recommend. It's called Girl Taken. And it's about the refugee experience and one family's journey across Europe. A four-year-old Afghan girl, Bru, made headlines in 2015 when she was found in the back of a van driven by a man called Rob, a former British soldier who'd been

volunteering in the Calais refugee camp. Bru's father, Reza, had told Rob the Taliban had killed his wife and he wanted Rob to bring his daughter to the UK. Fast forward to 2018 and Rob gets an email saying Bru's mother Goli was very much alive and living in Denmark with her other daughter Baron. This podcast attempts to get to the truth. I talked to Goli and the BBC reporter Sue Mitchell who made Girl Taken. I asked Goli first of all what Bru's Reza, was like. Very complicated man. I don't know. Even now, I really don't know what he like. He left us for many years ago, so I cannot think positive. He loved us, or that moment he like, he care.

There was not any for him. This is my family. When he left, he took one of your children with him, didn't he? Yeah. Leaving you with your second child. Yes. That must have been terrible. What was it like for you?

I have to feed Bar Baron all of the time. Yeah. And I was very, very weak that time. I couldn't walk with this little baby. I couldn't go even to the court or something looking for my mum. But I did actually. With all of this barrier, I did. Like complaining against his parents, where is your son? And they just denied me and said, we don't go and ask about your husband, about your daughter from this parent, because they have caused this decision.

And this is exactly them was behind Reza to do it, because Reza is not a very strong man. After I find it very difficult looking for my rights in Iran. That was not possible. I tried three months. Every day going to the court is not easy. And you have to put a lot of money, a lot of money for everything. Because if you want to make just complaining, you have to put money, give to the someone and okay, they will send you to another office and another office will send you to another office. And that's just going on like this and nothing has happened. And also at the end, they say, okay, you cannot prove your husband disappear now. You don't have enough documents.

So what we want to do, we want to talk with his family. His family didn't show up in the court. They didn't come. And just that was like, they stopped actually my case because they couldn't actually believe me because there was not any document I show my husband disappear now. I was near to be crazy. Just I think, OK, this is my situation. I can accept everything. But I can't be just naive and idiot as I have been before in my life. Is that how you think of yourself? I think. And for first time, I just feel I can't do it.

And was it then that you decided you had to get out? Yeah. And take your daughter with you? Yeah. So how did you get to Europe? That was quite very hard. I just get airplane. It's as simple as that.

But it wasn't as simple as that, was it? No, no. That was very hard. Very hard. Sue, it's really important that we... In fact, Goli's story is a hugely complicated one. It's very hard to explain exactly what she's been through and how she got to the situation she's in now. But it's a very good illustration of the refugee experience, which it isn't clear-cut, is it? None of it is. It's all a muddled mess.

But above all, it's an illustration of a woman's sort of journey, because what Goldie's done is sort of totally transformed the life she had in Iran, where her life was very restricted, where she didn't work or have her own bank account. Couldn't have her own bank account, or just didn't? No, I didn't have. I never had bank account in my life. That was the first time.

And something was very, actually, I was very unlucky because I came exactly to the one country which I find it very digitalization country as Denmark. And everything is digital. Everything have a very good security. I find it very difficult country to live. And I think that was a wrong decision. Yeah, I think that is very hard. What Jokoli's done is like coming from a life where she didn't have really any say and she's come to Denmark, she's made a life for herself. She's got an education. She's done fantastically well. And she's fought all along for rights to try and be back in contact with her daughter, to find her daughter.

It's an amazing story of a woman, really, who's living in one system, wearing her hijab. I think they are. And you get to Denmark and you totally sort of change your whole life. And you've got freedoms now. And sometimes when you talk, the love of those freedoms. Yeah, all of these I have done. I agree. At what point in your story, Sue, because it's a podcast I'm sure people will listen to. I know it's going to be incredibly popular. But at what point in the story does Goli appear?

Because it didn't set off to be about her, did it? Well, when we started the story we were just covering the refugee crisis and I was particularly sort of focused I went to the Calais jungle to look at the case of the little Afghan girl who had captivated hearts when she was picked up on the border a British soldier tried to smuggle her into the UK and it was a big story at the time and i'd recorded with that soldier rob laurie and did it we actually made a couple of programs then and when the jungle was demolished we'd gone back to try and find brew see what had happened to him we couldn't brew was the little girl yeah and we really we'd lost touch with them and we had no idea where

they were but you know it was a very sort of powerful message because it showed you the way children were living on that refugee camp. And that's what really, why it became such a big global story when she was picked up. It was because the conditions were so terrible for children and people's hearts went out, I think, to this soldier who tried to help her, the father who was with her and the little girl herself yeah so and then I had no idea about Goli because at that point Rob had

been told originally that the mother was dead we had no idea there was a mother and that mother Goli was you yeah yeah that was a very hard situation for me as well yeah and it was quite because I saw that video and after just, I went to the police station, big police station in Denmark. I just told them my situation and just, this little girl is exactly my girl. I saw pictures of Sue and Rob. What happened was a translator that was working with Goalie had spotted the pictures I put on the BBC website

and Goalie sort of saw it was her little girl, Bru couldn't believe really that she this translator said this you know made the link and she couldn't believe that after all these this time of searching she'd basically walked being been stowed away in buses cars traipsed through almost died at sea crossing from Turkey to Greece she'd made a really desperate journey across europe looking for your daughter and then suddenly you got this lifeline because she saw the pictures and that gave you a lead and eventually it's led us to sort of work together to try and try and look investigate what's happened but amazing coincidence really i think that was quite hard period i can't. I was crazy that time.

I cried most of the time. Because Denmark was like a cage for me that time. I couldn't get out and I didn't have asylum. And Goldie wanted to head to the UK because she thought that's where Brew... I mean, most of the refugees in the Calais jungle were trying to make their way to England. So your instinct and your thought was that Brew would be in the Calais jungle were trying to make their way to England so your instinct and your thought was that brew would be in in the UK and you wanted to try and get here but I didn't have any solution and the story isn't over yet actually we should say and there

are some details that can't be discussed or made public now Sue but what is your hope for this podcast for people listening to it? And let's face it, people in Britain have a range of views on refugees, I think it's fair to say, and not everybody is particularly sympathetic. Well, I think ultimately what I take from it is that a woman can travel the world and because at the root of it is a mother who wants to be reunited with her daughter and that is one of the most important bonds at the root of it is a mother who wants to be reunited with her daughter and that is one of the most important bonds the most important bond for a mother i mean goalie will explain that better than me but having met her realized that love that she has for her

daughter that's made her overcome every obstacle and the refugee system has supported her and wrapped around her in denmark to try and help her so there is real good and there's real kindness in people that you've met in the asylum centers and people have helped you that you've had some really fun you know fantastic input from people yeah but that bond try as you might whatever culture you live in what Goldie's done really is go to the ultimate lengths as a mother to try and reunite with her daughter. And most people would have given up early in that journey. Most people in that culture and system would have... I know a lot of women, actually, they will give up

and looking for just another life, another chance with another man, another beginning. I think a lot of people did it from my country because there is a lot of violence against women in my country and it's not easy for women just to stand up against these men's families and with a lot of tradition, wrong culture, shit culture actually. And it's not easy to stand up against this. Yes, but I'm just looking, your little girl is next door,

and she is going to have, she is having a very, very different kind of life, isn't she? Yeah, I think she's very clever. I think this part of my life is beautiful, ever, ever. For me as a woman, as a daughter, as a mom, everything. I think that's beautiful part of my life. And even I die, there's nothing I would be sad for because I see Baha, I see Bro, however. I met my daughter in the UK. That is Goli. And you also heard from the brilliant BBC reporter and producer Sue Mitchell,

who is the person behind the podcast Girl Taken. If you haven't heard it, I do really encourage you to have a listen. It's just such a fascinating, it's a saga, really. But it also gives you an incredible insight into what it's like to be a refugee. It is a muddled and complex business with all sorts of different sorts of issues in the mix, but really, really worth your time. So that's Girl Taken. It's available now on BBC Sounds. And when Goli came in for the interview, her little girl was there as well. And she really is full of life.

And I'm sure she will go far. So it was really interesting to meet Goli. Now to your tweets and your emails. Home educating. Alison says, interesting advice. But it seems to assume that parents at home have nothing else to do but be there for their children. Many are still having to work at a full-time job from home at the same time and many of those are single parents or a single spouse of

a key worker yeah well i did say that the biggest challenge of all of course was trying to wrestle the laptop from the children that's going to be a massive problem and then of course let's not kid ourselves there are loads of households where there is no laptop. And that's where the libraries came in. Of course, they were brilliant, but the libraries are shut. and then write or draw instructions to go with it. What about building a den? Write a list of things they need, like pillows and chairs and sheets, and then build and then take an image and then caption the images. Yes, you do need space for all that, don't you? And I've got to say, when my kids were younger and they built a den, they never put it back. The thing was, they never put the stuff back.

That would always be up to me and I'd get very resentful and then I'd raise my voice. Hard to believe I know. Jessica says, I homeschooled my children for three years and we spent much less time in the house than out and about. We went to galleries and museums and libraries and stately homes and parks and pottery shows and classes. Yes, Jessica, you cannot do any of that right now because we are all being encouraged to stay at home. And anyway, the galleries, the museums, the libraries and in some cases the parks are all very firmly shut. The current situation, she says, is more akin to formal schooling than to homeschooling, where children are going to spend most of their time

in the same rooms with the same group of people day in, day out. Please don't propagate the ill-informed nonsense that is the usual premise for discussing education other than at school. From an ex-teacher, if you let children do the subjects they like, what happens to the poor teachers when they get them back? That's a good point. Lynn says, I'm a teacher currently teaching from home. My year nine business group have been set an assessment online and they're up for it. They're all sending me

their completed work ready for marking. I think it's a really good start. That does sound brilliant, Lynn. And we shouldn't underestimate the children because I know so many of them are committed to their learning. They're desperate to keep going. Sally says, I was a teacher in a primary school. I'm a very keen advocate of cross-curricular learning. For example, if a young child bakes a cake, there is maths, of course, in the weighing. There's art in the presentation, geography in the kind of country which has the recipe,

multimedia in videoing the entire process, and so it goes on. Before that, there's english in working out the order of this event writing it up following the instructions then going back afterwards to make amendments and then criticizing your own work finally it can all form part of a booklet and then be shared with friends collating all the various recipes especially good in a multicultural community, says Hallie. Hallie? Sally. Jodie, could parents get their children to write and send letters to their friends,

thereby learning by accident? Working on handwriting, punctuation, etc. Started to decorate my window, says a grandma, and I know my daughter is going to do this with her son. My other grandchildren are busy working in the garden and they're planning to build bird boxes and feeders and also preparing veg beds. It's all learning and it requires teamwork and cooperation. Screens will not be a major part of their days. The adults are also continuing to work from home.

That does sound brilliant, but all this, of course, depends on who the adults are, what kind of work they're doing, how much space you've got in the house, how much equipment you've got. And of course, you are very fortunate or your grandchildren are very fortunate to have access to a garden. Judith says, I'm an ex-teacher. Children are used to timetables. So write a timetable for the day with periods no longer than an hour each. You can include formal lessons interspersed by play, art and free time. If you're concentrating on more formal lessons for half a day,

then put the children into school uniform for that period. To a greater or lesser degree, they'll respond accordingly. That's a thought. What else have we got here? On domestic violence. When is equality and common sense going to be applied to this field? There are domestic abusers out there, both men and women. People who are abused, both men and women, need support.

It's time for the bias to be taken out of this. I was heartened to hear you correct the bias to be taken out of this. I was heartened to hear you correct the woman speaking, pointing out that men are abused too. This has to be done every time. And Ruth, I do it every time. We do it every time on this programme. But I will also say, as I do every time,

that the overwhelming majority of the victims of domestic abuse are female and the overwhelming majority of perpetrators are male. Reusables. What have we got? In my last pregnancy, said Julie, I used a nappy service that dropped off my terry nappies and a liner and a bin to place the soiled nappies in. The nappies then sat in a waterproof popper pant. The service picked up the soiled nappies and brought me back clean ones. It was fabulous and it worked out cheaper than using awful landfill disposable nappies. I need to say something as well about the conversation we had about antibacterial spray. And I said what was really important was that the spray that our guest was talking about

making yourself wouldn't be antibacterial. A number of you said she's wrong, Jane's wrong, you're wrong because antibacterial spray cannot do anything in terms of a virus, in this case the coronavirus. So let me just explain exactly why antibacterial might be what you need. I'll just read this to you. This is from the UK's independent fact-checking charity Full Fact. Here we go. The question is which hand sanitizers work on COVID-19? The NHS says you should wash your hands with soap and water for at least 20 seconds to avoid catching or spreading the virus, but that you should use hand sanitiser gel if soap and water aren't available. The US Centres for Disease Control and Prevention and Public Health

England specify that hand sanitisers with at least 60% of alcohol content are the next best option after soap and water. Some people are claiming that hand sanitizers aren't effective against the coronavirus as they're antibacterial and the new coronavirus is a virus. Hand sanitizers do work against viruses. They are effective as the virus that causes COVID-19 has a lipid envelope. This has been proven to be susceptible to sanitizers with a high percentage of alcohol. Hand sanitizers with 60% alcohol are also effective against a broad range of bacteria too. So it's just worth saying then the antibacterial stuff may be of assistance in these circumstances because this virus COVID-19 has a lipid envelope. Right I know this is

complicated and we're all going to get things wrong and we're desperate obviously to make things as clear as possible in the circumstances. Thank you for listening. We're back tomorrow, the usual time. And of course, the podcast will be available too. Amongst other things, we're going to be discussing gardening. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.