Woman's Hour - Hook ups, Identity Politics & Feminism, Surviving Grooming Gang in Rotherham

Episode Date: October 9, 2020

Jane Garvey talks to a woman who survived being groomed by a gang in Rotherham, also to Yasmin Alibhai Brown and Ruby Hamad about identity politics and feminism and we hear from the older women who enjoy dating younger men. Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Matilda Macari

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and it's the Woman's Hour podcast from Friday, October the 9th, 2020. Hello, good morning to you. Somehow we've all got to Friday, so thank goodness for that. Today on the programme, what I hope will be a really interesting conversation. Our guests are Yasmin Alibibi-Brown and Ruby Hamad. And we're discussing why white feminists have let women of colour down.

Or have they? To what degree have they done exactly that? At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter if you want to get involved on that one. Also, somebody who proved to be quite a talking point yesterday was our guest Richard. He was a 28-year-old man. That's not his real name either, who was enjoying a string of relationships with older women he'd found via a dating app. Now, a lot of reaction to Richard. Today, you can hear from Eva, who is a woman in her 40s, who's been hooking up with much younger men. So we'll get her

side of her story on the programme today. and we've also got some wonderful emails from you on that subject including stories about your own experiences and relationships and how much you've got out of them so that's a little later in the programme today. First of all, a survivor of child sexual abuse in Rotherham has told the BBC that she is petrified because Ashgar Boston, the man who raped her when she was 14 and 15, has been moved now to an open prisoner, Category D jail,

and she wasn't told about it. Now, once an offender goes to a prison like this, they may be allowed out to work in the community or to go for home visits. This is Elizabeth, that isn't her real name, talking to Newsnight on BBC Two last night. I was like, well, he's only done two and a half years. So then I started crying, hysterical.

And I just said, how's it even happened? You spend every minute from sentencing thinking and counting days down to that release. But I never, ever thought that I'd be counting it down after two and a half years. I had multiple perpetrators but that man has left the worst trauma of them all and it's every time you think of him it just petrifies me. My main fear is that he's going to come out and do it to somebody else and my other fear is that I'm not going to be safe. If they're not on top of things now, while they've got the offenders in prison, then what's it going to be like when they come out?

I've been failed as a child. And then 18, 19 years down the line, I'm being failed again for that man. The only difference is now that I'm actually an adult and I understand what's going on. Well, that is not her real name, but we are calling that young woman Elizabeth. Sarah Champion is her MP, Labour MP for the area. Sarah, good morning to you.

Good morning. Well, I mean, she's got it right, really, hasn't she? I've been failed. That's the most telling part of her statement. Yeah. I mean, Elizabeth has been failed from the very, very beginning. First of all, that the abuse went on so long when her and her family were trying repeatedly to alert authorities to it and they did nothing. Then she was failed through the whole process of trying to get a conviction. She got the conviction. And I have to say, Elizabeth is so strong just to keep on going and trying to get justice. She thought she'd done the right thing.

She went through a very adversarial court process, got the conviction. And then lo and behold, two and a half years down the line, the Ministry of Justice have failed her again by not even notifying her or indeed victim support or probation that this dangerous person is going into an open jail. Right. Just to be clear, what was the length of his sentence? He got sentenced for two counts of rape for nine years and that was almost two and a half years ago. Right. I've got a statement here from the MOJ. We sincerely apologise for the distress caused and have taken immediate action to prevent it happening again. Offenders in category D prisons are not automatically eligible for temporary release. This is subject to a tough

risk assessment and victims have the right to request restrictions such as exclusion zones. To what degree are you comforted by that, Sarah? Well, it's a joke, isn't it? I mean, you'll remember your programme covered two and a half years ago, the War Boys case, a serial rapist who only because two of the survivors put in a legal case managed to prevent him coming out into society. And because of that, the Ministry of Justice then said, you know, all lessons will be learned. We'll make sure that victims and survivors are consulted.

We'll do risk assessments. And yet two and a half years down the line, we're in exactly the same situation again. And the problem is that I get what they're saying, but a risk assessment clearly wasn't done because Elizabeth wasn't given the right to say what her concerns were and neither were victim support. So why, when they'd failed a month ago, should it suddenly all be different now? I mean, the problem for me is this is symptomatic of the way our justice system deals with sexual offences, whether they're against children or adults. I mean, we know that over the past decade,

rape charges, prosecutions and convictions have fallen to their lowest levels. And we're asking time and time again for victims and survivors to come forward, put themselves in physical danger in some cases, but go through huge psychological trauma, and then they're not even getting the convictions and when they do things like this keep on happening. Do you think this is a one-off? No of course it's not a one-off. It's not a one-off because I've just cited war boys

and the high profile cases get the attention. I mean what worries me is all the cases that don't get the attention and I know that there are women who have literally discovered through Facebook that they're perpetrators back out on the streets again. Can I just say, we're obviously in particularly difficult times right now, the justice system is, to put it mildly, stretched, the prison system is also, it's overcrowded, we don't have enough prisons, we could go on forever but he got a nine-year sentence, is it normal for someone who's got a nine-year sentence to be moved to an open prison after a short length of time? I mean, his convictions were for rape,

but this is a very aggressive criminal. You know, this is not someone who will, after two and a half years, change his pattern of behaviour. I mean, there's very little evidence that sexual offenders change their behaviour at all. But after two and a half years, we don't even know if he's had any rehabilitation whatsoever, he's not going to change.

And then what we're doing is, in Rotherham particularly, I mean, at the moment we know we have the National Crime Agency in and they've discovered nearly 1,600 survivors of child sexual abuse, and they are in the process of charging and identifying. They've got about 300 perpetrators, and all the perpetrators are from Rotherham. So this guy, I can guarantee it, will still have family in Rotherham, will have connections in Rotherham, and we're a small town.

So Elizabeth is right to be anxious and she's right to be asking for once for her voice to be listened to. Well, that is the most devastating impact, really, isn't it? It's the fact that, as she says herself, as we said right at the beginning of all this, failed once continues to be failed. And it's just it feels like society's judgment is upon you and you simply do not matter and we nobody should should be no one should have to tolerate this surely no exactly and i mean the other thing that we've got in rotherham is um we have got ongoing cases and we are expecting victims and survivors to come forward because the way that our criminal justice system's set up that the victims have to come and testify in virtually all cases of sexual offences to try and get a prosecution. And what we need to see is a complete change in that. We should be looking at a system

that is there to support the victims and survivors, not put them through trauma again. And unfortunately I've got no confidence in that. I'm part of the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse. And we had the head of legal from CPS come to us last week and he said, well, survivors need to understand that our legal system is adversarial and therefore they're going to get bruised. And that just that is appalling that, you know, on public record, he would say something like that. I get that the system's like that now, but let's change the system and let's focus more on preventing these abuses, these crimes from happening. And when they do, let's put wraparound care to those survivors so that they are able to come forward and testify, because this will have a chilling effect on other Rotherham survivors.

Did they really say they're going to get bruised? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's in public record, the transcript's in the public domain. Can you, as the MP for Elizabeth and for many others in that part of the world, guarantee that this man, Ashgar Boston, will not be let out into the community for a home visit or to work? No, not at all. And to be quite honest, the letter that Elizabeth got caveated the reason that he wasn't going to be out into the community for weekend visits was because of

COVID, not because they'd done a risk assessment and not because they'd put protections in place. Okay, thank you very much. That is the MP for Rotherham, Labour MP, Sarah Champion. And I'm sure many of you will have a view on that at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email the programme via our website. So this is a broad question. And it's not the first time it's been asked here or indeed anywhere else. But I'm going to ask it again. Why can't all feminists get along? To get this one going, and hopefully to get your involvement as well, we're going to speak now to Yasmin Alibai-Brown, writer, journalist and author of a new book, Ladies Who Punch. It's about 50 trailblazing women whose stories you should know. Also with us, joining us from Sydney in Australia,

Ruby Hamad, author of White Tears, Brown Scars, and the woman who also wrote How White Women Use Strategic Tears to Silence Women of Col colour. That went viral, that essay. Good morning to you both. Good evening to Ruby, I should say, I suppose. So Yasmin. Yeah, welcome, Ruby. Thank you for being with us. Yasmin, you say differences matter, but commonalities matter more. And that's essentially the theme of your book. Why do you believe that so passionately? Well, because my heroine in all of this is the woman who actually coined the term identity politics, Barbara Smith, who was born during segregation, American woman, was in the civil rights movement against Vietnam.

She's just the most amazing woman. She's been my heroine. She would have been in my book, but this was all about British women. And I completely agree with her that black women, Asian women, all of us with various identities and actually composite identities have the right to decide on our own agendas and priorities. But what she said was this, and this is what I believe, you know, they never bad mouthed white feminists then. And she said this, you cannot be so look for your mirror image all the time as a feminist, and you cannot be so immersed in what you are experiencing and what you are, that you cannot see the wider arc of a need to work for justice and find solidarity with others. And so I find this deeply depressing,

this splintering off of feminism and the battles for women's rights. We have so much more in common than divides us. Ruby, what do you think? Well, that is true. We do have a lot in common. But this idea of splintering off, I mean, we're also talking about power here. And as a group, obviously there are then, there's going to be distinctions and hierarchies within that.

As a group, white women have power as a result of their whiteness and they definitely have a closer proximity to power than we do and so what my book is attempting or is unwrangling is the history of that of how white women are able to lean into their race at certain times, while at the same time, you know, amplifying their gender

and so amplifying the sexism that they are subjected to, but using that to gloss over or negate the fact that they do have a power due to their whiteness. Can I just, let's try to find an example. If you don't, I'm trying to, obviously I am a white feminist, I should say. So I'm very careful. I'm going to be very, well, by my own standards,

relatively silent during this conversation. But Ruby, I just, let's say, let's say that during the course of this conversation this morning, you, I say something and then you say something to me which I find upsetting for whatever reason. I then tearfully take to social media after the program and ask for understanding. What would you say about that were that to happen? Well, the context is obviously important. I'm not so, you know, I'm not going to say anything.

You're not allowed to get upset at anything I say for any reason. Like that's certainly not where I'm coming from. Context is obviously important. Yeah, for sure. And you are allowed to get upset. But what I'm looking at is what is the actual interaction? What I say in my book is that because of the racial dynamics that have been in place for so many generations,

it's like the end is almost decided before the context is given, if that makes sense. So it's like, you know, as I said in the essay, is almost decided before the context is given, if that makes sense. So it's like, you know, as I said in the essay, it's like even before, like, we open our mouths, women of colour are positioned in such a way where position has been aggressive, where position has been overly emotional. I know white women are too, but we are even more so. So the likelihood of gaining sympathy or understanding is very, very unlikely. It's really important that you two talk to each other,

actually, essentially, otherwise it is slightly far school. So, Yasmin. Yeah, I completely agree with Ruby when she says it's very hard to be an outspoken feminist or even an outspoken public figure of another kind if you are a woman of color. And my God, you know, I am apparently, according to some study, the second most abused woman in this country online. So I know that. But I do not agree at all with this idea that all power rests with white women.

I didn't say that. Can I just finish? Can I just finish? Please. What I have found in my experience, and as Barbara Smith says, is that there are women who are arrogant and do not wish to know about our lives. But some of the biggest breakthroughs in my lifetime have been made by caring and brave white feminists. We would never have cracked

a female genital mutilation or honor killings or any of these big, big, terrible tragedies and cruelties among some people around the world and in the West without brave white women deciding in their hearts, in their heads that they had to do something. I mean, like the journalist, the late Sue Lloyd Roberts, like the policewoman who found the killers of a young Kurdish-British woman who was murdered by her father and her male relatives. These white women have been incredibly important in our fight. And I will not, I hate, I hate making these kinds of generalisations. As a middle-class Asian woman, I have more power than a poorly educated white young woman. Power isn't so simply divided. Ruby? I didn't say it was. I did at the start, I said, as generally speaking, sometimes you have to speak in generalities, not to condemn, but that's a reflection of the society we live in.

Are you telling me that we're not a white-dominated society? Yes, we are. And I'm not, you know, never have I written that there are no good white women or no good feminists who are white and that they're incapable of doing good things and that we're incapable of working with them. That exists at the same time as what I talk about in my book and what I talked about in that essay you know you're bringing up Barbara Smith and identity politics and what you know she was part of the Combahee River Collective and what that collective which is a black feminist lesbian Marxist collective and what you know they were very adamant that

their lives, their economic conditions could not be explained or improved by focusing only on their class or only on their race. They had to also focus on, sorry, only on their gender. They also had to focus on their race and on their sexuality. And that is... Sorry. No, no, go on. No, absolutely. But she says now that the whole thing has been terribly distorted.

That there has been a kind of narrowing and that coalition of interests. You know, what are white women supposed to do? Let me tell you a very quick story. I was at a book festival where an Arab woman, a very beautifully and very beautifully spoken, wonderful Arab writer, female, was speaking at a festival. 99% of the audience were white women. And she was talking about you know the terrible experiences

of arab women in in egypt when two white women asked a question she turned on them and said they had no business interfering with arab women and my thought was then i was a fellow fellow panelist what do you want these people to do if they they say nothing, you say they're not interested. You're talking to them. You're trying to sell them your book and you're insulting them. How is that OK, Ruby? OK, well, I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know. Like, as I said, context is important. And I still have a big believer in looking at each situation and judging it on its merits. I don't think that there's no place for white women to talk about these issues that affect women from non-white communities and cultures. Absolutely no, I don't think that and that's not what my book deals with you know I'm looking at a very specific dynamic of how

in Western society I say our society as in the whole West the Anglophone West especially is where white women have historically and to this day, they have a dual position where their whiteness as white females, white women is prized, but they are still subordinated and have been as a result of their gender. Now, what I am trying to sort of bring out is that sometimes, oftentimes, many

times, and this happens in white feminism or in feminism, if feminism is not immune to this, the white feminists are able to lean into that race privilege that we don't have in order to, you know, whether it's silence us, whether it's, you know, exclude us, whether it's to demonize us. And where you look at who are the most prominent figures, especially in Australia, in the feminist movement, It's, you know, it's white women have the microphone. They have the power. We do work along, we being women of colour, work alongside them, but we see very little of the gains. And when we start asking for some,

that's when we get told that we're divisive and we get told that we're problematic. And this is happening you know the amount of women of color from across the world that have written to me to tell me that they're the my book was the first time they've seen their life explained they feel seen so this is not something that that I'm just doing. Believe me, I could have made my life a lot easier by not writing about this. It's just kind of, the article happened and it all snowballed. These are real issues. And we do live in a

white-dominated society. We do live in a society that privileges whiteness including white women and that this this affords a status uh to white to white women including white feminists that they're not really sharing with us um so this isn't about me like bad, bad mouthing. Sorry, I do want to address that. You said I'm bad, you know, again, I know that. I was quoting, I was quoting Barbara Smith. All right. Okay. Okay. I was quoting her.

That's fair enough. And I don't know who or what she was referencing exactly. And I, I'm also not, I'm not going to say that there aren't some issues as well. Right. And, you know, I'm not going to going to say that there are, you know, there are instances where, you know, white women aren't, you know, are being put in this position where like, okay, if I say something, I'm not in my lane.

If I don't say something, then I don't care. I absolutely get that and these need to be ironed out for sure. Can I just ask you both to what degree you think the patriarchy and men benefit from disagreement between women? Can I answer that? Okay, Yasmin first then, go on. I think that that's exactly the problem. And it's not just with feminism. It's in terms of race politics. In race politics, I grew, you know, I followed the entire coalition response to racism, which was we had an anti-racist alliance of white, black, brown, and we were a political force to be reckoned with in the 80s. And now we are all splintered and we are unable,

and we were unable until recent, until Black Lives Matter, which is changing things for the better, I think, bringing us back together. It's in working class politics. Working classes were of all races in this country. They racialised it, used identity politics, splintered the working class. I don't want to see feminism weakened.

And I think men benefit when that happens. And that's why in my book, women of every background are featured. Men benefit from this. Ruby. I really, like, I take exception to this because we don't just live in a patriarchy. We live in a white. I don't even like to use the term patriarchy anymore. You know, we live in a society that has been structured, founded, built, maintained, perpetuated by whiteness. And this is something that white people can opt in or out of. Okay.

So I'm not saying that it's, you know, it's preordained and biological, but we're talking about political concepts here. And to say that white women and, you know, women of color disagreeing is benefiting men it's it's where is like what we've not gained why women of color have not seen the same benefits from feminism in the West that white women have okay it's and you can see that in, when there's in the, on TV, especially in Australia, where there's many more white women on TV. There's not many non-white women. You see it in parliament, you see it in business, you see that everywhere. And, you know, the feminist organizations. So this idea, so, I mean, if divisiveness means

that we're asking to be, you know, not treated, you know, as subordinate, then I don't understand, like I don't get where this is coming from, this idea that we're splitting the, you know, the feminist movement. If the feminist movement has never seen women of color um as fully equal to them then there's not a movement to split you know there's there's not a movement to split if i'm going to work alongside white women and then you know be like yeah we've

got to do this let's let's smash that glass ceiling but then i only see white women and then, you know, be like, yeah, we've got to do this. Let's smash that glass ceiling. But then I only see white women going through the glass ceiling. What is, you know, what's the point? Like there's no sisterhood in that. Ruby, thank you very, very much. Ruby Hamad, author of White Tears, Brown Scars, and Yasmin Alibi Brown, the writer and journalist and author of Ladies Who Punch.

I hope you learnt from that, as I did, at BBC Women's Hour, if you have a comment to make. The Women's Hour Power List this year is dedicated to our planet and thank you so much for all your suggestions for women who should be on that list, which we're going to reveal on November 16th. Anna Lacey, the somewhat beleaguered, for women who should be on that list, which we're going to reveal on November the 16th. Anna Lacey, the somewhat beleaguered, though still very enthusiastic producer in charge of the project,

has sent me an email saying she just wants to thank everybody. Over a thousand suggestions. People have been suggested who are working at the highest levels of global climate policy, right through to scientists researching glaciers, documentary makers, bloggers, sustainable fashion influencers, local volunteers, nature enthusiasts. So many great ideas from you. Thank you all. The Reveal programme is on the 16th of November. Instagram turned 10 this week. What impact has it had on you? We'd like to hear from you about this. Body shape, holiday ideas and destinations, fashion, politics. It has infiltrated many areas of our national life and influenced, too, the way we are encouraged to feel about ourselves. And if you have daughters in particular, I might suggest it's played quite a part in your life, too.

Let us know about your views on Instagram, please, via our website. You can email us there. Now, Henrietta Harrison is our reporter who is in her late 40s and she joined a dating app recently, got loads of messages from men in their 20s. And she was somewhat unsettled about this, also a tiny bit flattered. She wanted to find out more about this older woman with a younger man thing. And yesterday we heard from somebody we're calling Richard.

He's 28. He slept with around 30 women in their 40s and 50s. He used apps which have made it pretty easy for him to approach older women. He told us about the appeal. With an older woman, what you bring to the table is almost innate and effortless. It's your youth. Yeah, you're young. And because of your youth, that makes you desirable and that gives you the power.

And you don't really have to do anything. And yeah, that's fantastic. Whereas suddenly with a younger woman, you don't have that cheat code anymore. In a sense, there's much more equality between lovers of the same age. You know, OK, well, without my trump card of youth, what do I have?

You know, what am I bringing to the table, actually? Yeah, we are still getting a reaction to Richard. There is another side to this. This is a 48-year-old woman we are calling Eva. A year after her divorce, she went on a dating website and got together with a 20 something man we're calling Sam now this is quite frank I'd set my age range at I think 38 to 50 but there's a couple of guys well one in particular that just was really persistent he was 27 and I was like that's way that's not even a few years and then when I said to him look you're too young for me he was like well what's age got to do with it and I he made me feel a bit like well what's

the problem you know and I thought that was quite funny because I was like oh gosh yes am I ageist you know obviously ageism works both ways so I felt like he was very quick to pull me up on the fact that I had an issue with it and he didn't he wanted to move on to whatsapp quite quickly when we're on whatsapp it was got quite intense quite quickly so you got from the dating site to whatsapping and when you say it got intense what do you mean well he wanted to talk to me quite quickly and I was quite surprised because I thought I had heard that a lot of women ended up texting for ages and never hearing from again so I was quite impressed that he wanted to speak to me on the phone because I was like oh I thought again another generalization that I had to pull myself up on and we spoke on the phone because I was like oh I thought again another generalization that I

had to pull myself up on and we spoke on the phone and he he's got a very nice voice he's very articulate he is he had a great job and we got on very well very quickly and we'd spend hours talking of an evening and he had a great view of the world very bright and I guess I was I was kind of flattered I guess by you know him wanting to spend so much time talking to me I mean I have to say looking at my text exchange with him I was constantly going well this you know this isn't gonna work right because I would need 20 years between us but you know I just kind of thought why not do this as a bit of a dip in my toe into the water again so I just thought why not I kind of went with it so you had these long conversations on the phone that were quite intellectual yeah and sexual as well yeah there was definitely an element of

him wanting to fast track the sexual side of things I remember him wanting me to send photos naked photos and that really shocked me I mean I'm not a very minded person but I think it's to do that before you've met somebody I was like oh I didn't even know my ex-husband so you know so you didn't no I refuse to do that but yeah the conversation did turn quite sexual quite quickly which was quite exciting actually because I really liked talking to him and he had a really sexy voice and he sent me a picture of his body and he's really hot but he was obviously very very happy to send photos of himself I mean he didn't send anything like you know pornographic but sending pictures of his naked torso and you know he was a rugby player so it was pretty

well received so you'd been in a 10-year marriage yeah and I guess in that 10 years the dating rules have changed plus there's been the proliferation of online dating sites so you're navigating this this new world I mean what were your guides I suppose so it was interesting actually because it did it was quite intense quite quickly and I was quite turned on by it and I actually hadn't had sex for ages to be honest so it was all like about meeting my own needs as well and I thought I can handle this I really felt like I'm a big girl you know I'm not going to fall in love with this person I felt a lot more self-possessed it's funny because I came out of my divorce. Obviously, I was slightly broken during it.

But I only started online dating when I felt I was ready. So I didn't go on there. I knew that I had to be ready in order not to attract the predators, shall we say. And I really felt at that time, I'd moved into a lovely new home. My ex and I were co-parenting well. I was doing well at work. I've got a really good network of friends. I really felt like I waited until I was ready.

So I didn't feel particularly vulnerable. So you're having these intense phone calls, phone sex. How did you then actually get to meet? We arranged to meet up. And then he phoned me in the afternoon and said, look, I've had a really bad panic attack at work and I can't meet you. But I went out with friends from work instead, didn't expect to see him. And then he decided he, you know, he could navigate public transport and he came to meet me.

So you had a date that was off and then it was back on again. Exactly. So, and it was, I wasn't expecting it. And sorry, my cat's coming in. But we did really hit it off and we did, I found him incredibly easy to talk to. And I think there was not much small talk actually. But I did find him attractive. And I did, I did kind of like, I think I thought I just, just yeah I've been ages why not you said you used the word uninhibited so it's on the phone yes definitely and I mean I'm pretty uninhibited I think as I've

got older I feel much more confident about my body than I did in my 20s and 30s I think that my 30s were probably without realizing it a little bit of a race to have a family wittingly or not that was the way I was thinking my 20s I was a bit broken because my mama died and I was dating all the wrong people and going out too much and you know so I do think even though I'd had been through a divorce like better about myself than I had done in years. I know what works for me sexually. I feel like I look good naked, even though I've had a child and, you know, I work out.

So you like your body more as a 48-year-old than you did as a 28-year-old? Totally. I mean, I almost had, like, some self-loathing. It's interesting, isn't it? Sam very much, one of the reasons that he discussed he liked dating older women and never dated younger women is because they've got so many body image issues and they've got the whole conflict about whether they want a family and all that and I think oh my god you know obviously with me that was none of that it was was applicable so I think for him the attractive thing was yeah I wasn't looking to have a baby.

I wasn't looking, you know, I've got my own home, I've got my own house. I didn't need him for anything. I just wanted to have a good time with him. And he made it very clear that wasn't a very attractive thing for him. I spoke to a 28-year-old man for this series who has slept with a lot of women in their late 40s and 50s and he thinks

that there is a connection between older women and younger men in terms of sexual appetite I mean is that something that that chimed with you gosh yeah that's really good point actually I shocked myself by my sexual appetite since my divorce. I do think there is something in the whole women peak later. I think it might have also been because I spent a few years in an unhappy marriage where I wasn't getting any, having any sex or wanting any sex. And I do think that this, I felt liberated. You know, I feel like, gosh, I've come through the side. And I think that men find that attractive, that you know what you want and you're happy to give direction not you know in a military fashion but it's an attractive thing someone that knows what they want um and I I often think you know I don't think even

if you carry a few pounds men notice that it's the way you walk it's the way you walk across the room naked it's the way you carry yourself and I think that's since then in my 40s I've had the best sex I've ever had because I've never felt more comfortable and sexier than I do right now the young man I spoke to we spoke a little bit about milf porn and arguably this older woman younger man dynamic is fueled by milf porn is that something that you are uncomfortable with i don't think so i mean it depends isn't it i mean i almost think that's a bit demeaning to older women it's a bit uh patronizing as well i hate that label because i have to say i never for one one moment felt like he was fetishizing my age I just think we forget about the positives of sleeping with an older woman and I have to say from my point of view

I got to sleep with someone with a really fit body who kept up with my sexual appetite made me breakfast I mean god you know what's not to like exactly I just felt like you know he looked amazing he had great stamina it was also really fascinating to talk to someone exactly I just felt like you know he looked amazing he had great stamina it was also really fascinating to talk to someone that was just the mindset of someone who was 20 years younger than me and their outlook on life was just so fascinating to me after Sam I dated a couple of men my own age and they were a bit broken by divorce and in some ways it's a perfect match right because you've got a guy that you you know, you're thinking, right, okay, I want to just let loose and have some fun and have some great sex and be adored. And I felt like, I really felt like I was physically, like he was really adoring of my body and made me feel amazing.

And yet he had this great optimism about life and this future what he was gonna do and he he didn't he wasn't sat there moaning about his ex-wife did you ever see sam was someone that you could have a relationship with i underestimate the fact that when i had when you have really good sex and you have a really good chat really hard to then go next and i'm just not like i'm not built like that so he did get really attached he had quite a lot of anxiety issues he doesn't live near me in London and I didn't want to take public transport because of his anxiety and it became like a lot of like me kind of reassuring him and I felt like I was becoming a bit of a, not a mothering role, but I just felt that it was getting in the way of A, us actually meeting, but B, us kind of moving forward in any way.

But at the same time also, I mean, I didn't go to South Byron and think, oh my God, can you imagine coming out of the bathroom and there's, you know, three flatmates standing around getting stoned or something. I'd just be like, oh, hi. And also he had big student loans and we just it's a different place in our lives so I mean just in sort of retrospect I mean this was a positive experience for you over the last 18 months he sent me pictures of his chest going just to let you know it's always on the table for you I'm always

available you know and I've said to him like you must have other relationships but yeah but you're i'm not really set out and you know it just we had such a great chemistry and connection and i i'm kind of shocked that this amount of time has lapsed and he's still keen to repeat the experience and i'm still on his mind i mean it's quite flattering really that you know he was 28 now 28 year old is still kind of fantasizing about me so yeah I think it was definitely a positive experience and do you think you'll do it again yes or no maybe not any 28 year old but possibly him because I do feel there was a bond in the connection there but it's funny I just know that all I have to do is message him and he'll be round. And it's just kind of like, you know, it's kind of good for the ego.

Well, you can see that it might be. That was the woman we're calling Eva, who talked to our reporter Henrietta Harrison. And I enjoyed both of those conversations with Richard and Eva and we are still getting a lot of reaction from you about both speakers but particularly it has to be said about Richard. We'll get on to that in a minute. Lots and lots of emails from you today on the other subjects we discussed in this programme. So let's go to this one.

I am a victim of childhood sexual abuse and when I was in my 20s I took my abuser to court and got a conviction. Three other women also gave statements about abuse stretching over two decades by one man. He got 15 months, served seven. I was told I was lucky to have got a conviction. Unfortunately when my son was born I was unwittingly in a friendship with a couple who made themselves indispensable. Eventually, I found out they were abusing him and also probably his younger sister. He was four. These people had essentially been surrogate grandparents to him, but the police wouldn't charge them because my son, at four years years old wouldn't give a statement against them. The system

is so stacked against victims who are invariably women and children. Something has got to change. Wow. I mean, that's absolutely terrible. Another emailer says, referring to the first conversation on Woman's Hour today, nine years should mean nine years. Why do prisoners only serve a third of their sentence? Why is he being moved to a lenient prison after just two and a half years? I think the full term of nine years sounds too lenient anyway for such a terrible crime. The man was convicted of two rapes, nine years for each, i.e. 18 years.

With nine years, it feels to me like buy one, get one free. That's a very bleak assessment, but I can understand why you're driven to thinking that. I think the simple answer, well, it's never a simple answer, is we know that our prisons are overcrowded and therefore people on the whole do not serve their full term for a string of reasons but this area keeps cropping up and I suspect will unfortunately continue to do so. Many many people

really enjoy just hearing Ruby and Yasmin talk to each other and they were both very very interesting speakers. Elizabeth says, thank you for that thought provoking discussion today. My doctoral study was concerned with gender practices and my own feedback is divide and rule the fascist tool. Unfortunately, patriarchy will always benefit from the lack of alliance work between those of us who are subject to sexism. Another emailer, I don't deny what is being said as such, but further separating us could be divisive for all of us. I'm a white woman from the working class

who feels totally powerless against the forces we need to defeat, and certain men do benefit from this. Having been constantly judged for my background, my accent, my lack of education, I'm finding this a difficult listen. I've been abused, I've been held back, I've been harassed, and yet I have never ignored or backed away from issues of race or gender when challenged. I am not saying my skin colour doesn't give me privilege, but I wear it uncomfortably. I have fought to now get an education, and I still have had issues that would not occur if I were male. From Helen, I can't believe that Ruby can assert that white women are all privileged. This debate has followed on from the piece about a Rotherham survivor of sexual abuse,

whose whiteness surely made her a target of abuse rather than otherwise. Surely social class is the crucial indicator here, says Helen. From Isaac, a case in point of how black women and the particular issues they face are not supported by white women is something I've seen. The utter dismissal of the black Scottish model Eunice Ulamide on the Jeremy Vine show by two white women who effectively ganged up on her.

And this behaviour, says Isaac, is not untypical. Yeah, I think that is a reference to the Jeremy Vine TV show on Channel 5. But Isaac, correct, do correct me if I'm wrong there. Teresa says, I gave up my PhD about diversity in rural primary schools. I wanted to explore the structures of these communities and how they perpetuated ignorance and prejudice. But I withdrew from the doctorate due to negativity from students who were black feminists in my department. I was told by them I had no right to explore racism as a white woman and was made uncomfortable in our shared office space. And here's an email from a man,

Andrew, who describes himself as an expat. Feminism does suffer from this division. However, differences exist. So don't be critical of factions and camps. We cannot impose ideals on people, whatever these ideals might be. People will come to an understanding of other standpoints based upon knowledge and experience. My personal response to the broadcast was that one party is aggressive and reactionary, the other thoughtful and informed. But then I am a bloke, says the emailer. That is Andrew. I should say that not everybody took the side, if you like, of Ruby in that conversation. This is a remark from a listener who says Yasmin is one of those brown skinned women

that cause us black women more problems she didn't want to be interrupted but was happy to interrupt Ruby Hamad it's women like her that stop us as black women from being taken seriously my blood pressure just went up I did actually largely keep out of that conversation because clearly it wouldn't have been appropriate

but I'm very very interested to hear the views of everybody I did actually largely keep out of that conversation because clearly it wouldn't have been appropriate. But I'm very, very interested to hear the views of everybody who has emailed and used Instagram and Twitter to talk to us today about what they heard. On to relationships between older women and younger men. We heard Richard on Thursday. We heard Eva today. Let's hear what you've got to say today. Bettina, why are older women flattered by the attention of younger men there's an implication there that we are somehow less

as we age, which I find tragic we're fabulous at all our ages we as women need to believe that and stop worrying about age from Suze dear gawd, are you short of a story that was my impersonation of that had to switch

woman's hour off now. Somebody wittering on about her initial anguish about dating younger men. So boring, like yesterday. Could have been said in five minutes, but I thought Richard was indulged. Sarah says, my boyfriend, nearly eight years, is 22 years younger than me. We met when he was 26. We're as happy as any couple can be. He's an old soul, which helps. He's wise and not as immature as many men of his age. He's a beautiful person in mind and body. And I guess the fact that he doesn't aspire to have children is a stress we don't have to deal with. Age is irrelevant. Love is what matters. Emma says, Bravo, Eva. I'm 47. Haven't had sex for seven years. Happily married, but to a man with zero libido.

And it was refreshing to hear a different side of sex in your 40s. It's out there. She sounded fantastic in control, getting her needs met on her terms. Brilliant from Angie. What a really interesting conversation on your programme today. When I went through separation and divorce in my early 40s, nearly 20 years ago, I had several relationships with guys in their late 20s. It was wonderful. And I found it a real ego boost at a time when life was challenging. I felt I was in control of my life and confident in my body. Great to hear women able to feel positive about this. Thank you, Angie. I'm glad we pleased you with that.

Philip says, this morning was the last straw. Talking about MILF porn was horrible and I will never listen again if this is the level that you've reached. Unbelievable. Philip, there. I mean, still call Woman's Hour. You're welcome to listen, Philip.

I mean, you're very welcome to listen. And I've said it before, not quite half our audience is male, but we have a lot of male listeners. We want you to listen. And I'm tempted to say we want you to learn. Is it for you to comment? I mean, yes, of course it is, if you've got an area of experience that we would like to learn about.

But anyway, thank you very much to everybody. We've got to the end of this week, and Sangeeta Maiskar will be here on Monday, and I'm here with the highlights of our Women's Hour week on Saturday afternoon in program and podcast form. Have a good weekend. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.