Woman's Hour - Hope Powell, Dr Gladys McGarey, Deirdre O'Kane, suicide and young women

Episode Date: July 17, 2023

Nuala McGovern is joined by one woman who has had a huge impact on the women's game over many years - Hope Powell - the former Lioness head coach will discuss England's chances, the growth of the game and how to continue building a legacy for women's sport. A fifth of young women suffering a mental health crisis were asked if they were on their period, a new survey has found. Research by the prevention charity Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM) also found that women’s calls for help were sometimes dismissed. We talk to Wendy Robinson, Head of Services at Suicide prevention charity, Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM) Dr Gladys McGarey, cofounder of the American Holistic Medical Association, began her medical practice at a time when women couldn't even own their own bank accounts. Now a 102 and still practicing as a doctor, she was born in India in 1920. She started medical school just before the Second World War, married a fellow doctor, Bill and together they practised medicine, first in Ohio, then In Arizona. They also produced six children. Dr Gladys has now written a book, The Well-Lived Life.Deirdre O'Kane became a stand-up comic in 1996, getting to the finals of the BBC New Comedy Awards of that year. A co-founder of Comic Relief in Ireland, she also fronted her own talk shows, Deirdre O’Kane Talks Funny on RTÉ as well as a brand-new series, The Deirdre O’Kane Show on Sky Max. One of Ireland’s favourite comedians, she is also known for acting roles such as Chris O’Dowd’s Moone Boy and the biopic of philanthropist and children’s rights stalwart Christina Noble called Noble, for which she received an IFTA Award. Deirdre joins Nuala to discuss her wide-ranging career and her new stand up show Demented, which is coming to London’s Soho Theatre this week.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Gayl Gordon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Well, just a few days to go until the Women's World Cup in Australia and New Zealand. Woman's Hour is the home for women's football, so we are delighted to have Hope Powell, England manager for 15 years and a pioneer in the women's game. She is going to join us today from the other side of the globe. And as England take on Haiti for their first match on Saturday, how does it look for the Lionesses now that we are finally on the review carried out by Karen Carney into women's football on how to capitalise on the Lionesses Euro 2022 success. And I also want to ask

Hope about a quote I read where she said, if you like to be liked, football management is not for you. So that's coming up. But here's another quote. This is from another of today's guests, a comedian and actor Deirdre O'Kane. She says,

there's a point beyond burnout where all you can do is laugh. Well, Deirdre has a new show, Demented, it's called, at the Soho Theatre this week, so we'll talk all about that. And what a joy to interview Dr. Gladys McGarry, 102

years young, a practising doctor. Gladys hasarry, 102 years young, a practicing doctor. Gladys has written a book, The Well-Lived Life, as hers has been, and she shares her wisdom during difficult times. I realized, look what you have, not what you lost. I mean, you can spend your time picking that scab and hurting and hurting. Or you can let it heal and then you can look back and say, oh, I remember. Well, from speaking to Gladys and also seeing today, did you see this? Angela Rippon reportedly set to become the oldest contestant on Strictly at 78. We would love to hear your stories on the way older women are changing the narrative on what is expected or indeed what is possible. This morning on Woman's Hour, we are celebrating the skills of older women.

Now, to do that, you can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. You can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note and that number is 03700 100 444. Also today, we want to look at new research and a new campaign to tackle suicide rates among women under 25. It says calls for help were sometimes unseen,

unheard or dismissed. Right, let's talk football. Have you got your wall charts up? Your scarves dusted off? Have you set an alarm clock extra early? If you're an England fan, you'll know that this week sees the start of the Women's World Cup,

as I was mentioning, held in Australia and New Zealand. At the US, they're ranked number one in the world. They're chasing a fifth World Cup title. There are more countries than ever competing to lift that most prized trophy in football. Sadly, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, they didn't make the cut this time. Among the favourites are England.

They begin their World Cup campaign, as I mentioned, on Saturday. But with injuries to key players, it could be a big challenge, particularly for the head coach, Serena Weigman. Few women can understand the challenge as much as my next guest, that is Hope Powell. She's considered by many to have been a key driving force in women's football. She was England manager for 15 years. During that time, they qualified for four UEFA Championship finals, two World Cup finals. And more recently, she's been the coach of the women's team at Brighton and Hove Albion and worked with the men's under-20s team for their World Cup.

And joined us today from New Zealand. You're so welcome. How are you adjusting to life down under? Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's been fantastic, actually.

What a lovely place, I must say. So firstly, Kia ora. That's hello in New Zealand, Maori language, which is quite nice. Yeah, it's been great, actually. I've had the real privilege of travelling around a bit to see the country, to get to meet the people.

So I've been up in the Northland, the birthplace of New Zealand, met the local tribe, you know, a really, really warm welcome. And I think that's what fans and the teams can expect, a really warm welcome, an introduction to Maori culture and what their sort of culture stands for and what it means to have people visit their country. It's a fantastic place. And part of the travel, I've been to a place called Rotorure, met local girls' side, and I think just the pull of the World Cup,

it's seen that one particular club called The Lakes, they've had an increase in registered players by something like 500%, which is quite incredible. And now I'm in Auckland. And now you're in Auckland. I'm wondering about that sign up that you talk about with the registration. Is that put down to, do you think, the draw of the World Cup? Because I think the World Cup is something that pulls people in, perhaps, that aren't even the rest of the year interested that much in football.

Yeah, and that's what sport can do. And that's certainly what we've seen over the years in England. And to come to New Zealand and see that it's had a similar impact before the tournament's actually started is pretty pretty special um and you know the world cup again will leave a great legacy and hopefully inspire as we all want it to do the next generation of the young girls plan and the next generation of talent so it's quite phenomenal really and of course you have been um such a, as I was mentioning, when it comes to that. Let's run through the Lionesses for a moment.

We know a few key players are out through injury. Do you think the team is as strong as it was during the Euros, which, of course, ignited so much excitement for the game? Yeah, well, you know, it's really unfortunate that those players that were so instrumental in the Euros, unfortunately, you know, sustained some really bad injuries. Leah Williamson, Beth Mead, you know, Frank Kirby's been out for a while. We've had players retire, Ellen White, Jill Scott. But, you know, I kind of flip it and look at it in a different way, as I'm sure Serena has, that the talent coming through in England, there's some really exciting prospects. So while they will miss those key players, it really gives an opportunity for some of the new talent coming through to sort of stamp their mark and their authority on the world's biggest stage. So, you know, they should be really excited by it. And, you know, I certainly am. So the starting 11, there's these questions about who should be her main striker, Rachel Daly, Alessia Russo and Beth England, appropriately named, perhaps could be one of them.

Who would you pick if you were in her shoes? I put you on the spot on a Monday morning, a Monday afternoon in New Zealand. I think that the really nice thing is that she's got the luxury of picking any one of the three strikers that are in form. You know, they're all scoring, they've all scored for their clubs. At the moment, Rachel Daly is the top goal scorer. She had a phenomenal season from someone who's gone from left-back

to centre-forward. If I had to put a bet on it, put money on it, I'd probably say she's going to pick Rachel Daly. Okay, well, I'm going to be watching closely to see if that happens. And no doubt she would look to you as so many people have. I mean, there's few women that can take as much credit for the growth of the game.

And that work, of course, goes across decades. I want to play a little clip from former Lioness and now top broadcaster Alex Scott speaking on Football Focus. She was so diligent on everything in terms of our preparation, studying your opponent to become a student of the game, to push forward your analysis, every element that she did to push women's football forward. In terms of knocking on doors at the FA for many years ago when it was even harder than it was, it is now people are still fighting. It was Hope Powell that's got women's football to where it is now in terms of central contracts, turning the game professional. And then, yeah, I got my hundred caps under Hope.

So I owe a lot to her. How does it feel to hear that? Yeah, I've known Alex since she was very young, a kid, and really, really proud of what she's achieved um it's nice to hear to be honest it wasn't just me it was a lot of people um you know knocking on doors you know every day I felt like I had um an argument with well or a challenge with somebody just try and make it better actually it was more about arguing the case for women's football. But I'm just really proud that,

you know, the strides that the game has taken, the fact that players now and every young girl can look up and go, you know, I want to be a professional footballer. And if I had a small part to play in that,

I'm really pleased. I think they would say more than small part. Let's talk about those arguments though and particularly with that job as an England manager.

That quote I mentioned at the top, if you like to be liked, football management is not for you. What were the battles you were having? It was just about

trying to get more of everything for the players to try and professionalise it when perhaps the game wasn't valued in the same way that it's valued today. So, you know, my love for the sport, you know, outweighed everything else and I probably saw, as did others, the potential that it had. So I was prepared to fight for it you know central contracts I was

knocked back at first I had to go back and you know really try and convince people that that this was a good investment it was things like that investing in you know more training days you know investing in in more friendly fixtures to prepare players better for tournament play. I was always asking for something just to try and improve things and that, it always felt like a fight, a challenge, you know, because I don't think, you know, it definitely wasn't valued in the same way as it is today and that was hard.

It's so interesting. And you talk about that value that is coming from it now. But some are saying, you know, that there's a lot of men that are now trying to get in on the game and get in on the action who weren't there beforehand. And some saying this needs to stay in women's hands. Do you have an opinion on that? Sorry, do I? Do you have an opinion on that? Sorry, do I? Do you have an opinion on that?

You know, like now that there's cues to get involved in women's football by men. And you're just telling me what it was like over the decades, knocking on those doors and knocking heads probably as well, trying to get people to understand your vision. Yeah, I mean, I must say that I had some great allies in the game that were men. You know, I can talk about the likes of Howard Wilkinson, who at the time was technical director. He was very, very supportive. And without his support, I'm not sure some of the things that I was fighting for would have, you know, been granted or would have been done.

So there were a lot of allies back then that were male. And, yes, women's football now, it's in the spotlight. It means it's going to attract the attention of more men and hopefully more females to be part of the game. And, you know, sometimes people do it for the right reasons and they support it fair enough if that's what you want to do um brilliant but we we really want people engaged in the game that are in it for the long haul for the long when it goes rough you know not just the highs but but the lows of the game to to make it better than it is today so

am i surprised that it's attracting more people? No, because it's a great space to be in. And it's interesting, you mentioned allies. Leah Williamson, who was top of our power list as well, said that was so important to getting it to the next level. Let's talk about the review, though, into the women's game that was published last week. This was authored by former Lioness Karen Carney,

and I understand you contributed to it. One particular issue it focused on was the lack of diversity in the women's team. Just two non-white players make up the England squad. You were the first black and first female coach of an England national side. How do you understand that lack of diversity? Yeah, I think, you know,

when Karen approached me and asked me about my um views on you know the current situation um i i raised the um sort of the issue around diversity and inclusion i think um the sport now um you know where it is it isn't as accessible as perhaps we would like. And, you know, with the best intentions in the world, I think the F.A. sort of introduced the centres of excellence, as they were then called, and tried to align it to professional clubs, which meant that, you know, years down the line, you realise you've excluded a group of young girls who perhaps can't get to these centres. You know, I was part of that, you know, so I saw it. It was with the best intentions.

We went to professional clubs because we knew the facility would be free, but we didn't perhaps take into account that, that you know quite a few of the centres would be in leafy suburbia which would mean that it would be hard to access i think the most important thing now is that it's being addressed through emerging talent centres making them a little bit more localized easy to reach and hopefully over time we can see that the game becomes a little bit more inclusive and more diverse. Certainly it needs to reach those players that can't be reached. And not only in those centres, I think, you know, we need to go back into schools. Every young girl is in a school. And that's probably where we're going to encourage girls of, you know,

different backgrounds to participate in the sport. And hopefully in years to come, we could see it's a little bit different to what it looks like today. You were a technical assistant for the under-20s England World Cup men's team, which took place last month. Is it different coaching men to coaching women? No, the game, it's it's it's football i think you you have to be appreciative of um you know perhaps how you engage with with the females i think um as opposed to the mouths um but it is actually the same game it's just how you manage the people you're coaching is the most important thing i think i don't know if you caught that ad featuring the French national team,

that it has their huge male players scoring epic goals, playing incredible football. And then halfway through the video shifts and the visual effects are taken away to reveal that the top female French players instead were actually scoring. What did you make of it? It's gone viral, this video. I thought it was brilliant.

Yeah, very, very clever. Brilliant. You know, I think it just really captures the ability of female footballers and their capabilities today. It was absolutely brilliant. Whoever thought of that, genius, I must say. We need to see a little bit more of it. Thank you so much

for speaking to us. Hope you have a wonderful time over the next few weeks. Enjoy Saturday, if that's the right word. Enjoy, I don't know. Maybe it's sitting on the edge of the seat. And we are going to keep across the Women's World Cup. We want to thank Hope Powell for joining us as we really get into it.

We'll watch it as it progresses here on Women's Hour and you can watch and listen to the games across the BBC as I mentioned Saturday that's 10.30am as the first match

kicks off against Haiti now let me move on 84844 if you want to get in touch we are celebrating older women

today many of you getting in touch with what you've done I saw somebody has managed their first wakeboarding session on Windmere at 87. Keep them coming, 84844. But I want to turn instead to young women for a few minutes.

A fifth of young women suffering a mental health crisis were asked if they were on their period. This is a new survey that has just been put out. Research by the prevention charity Campaign Against Living Miserably, CAM, also found that women's calls for help were sometimes dismissed. The charity has launched a new national campaign, backed by the England footballer Fran Kirby, as we were hearing there she's not down at the World Cup, to tackle suicide rates among women under 25.

After ONS figures last year revealed one young woman dies by suicide every two days in the UK. I'm joined by Wendy Robinson, Head of Services at suicide prevention charity CAM. Can you tell me why you decided to look into this now, Wendy? Welcome. Yeah, good morning. We were really seriously concerned about the rate of the rise. So we've known for a long time that when you look at women who are struggling and people who are struggling and having thoughts around suicide, that actually there are more women attempt suicide. There are more women who are struggling with depression than men.

But actually when we saw that it was young women and the rise was so significant, it became impossible for us to ignore. A lot of the headlines in the newspapers today were saying that a fifth were asked whether they were on their period. And I'm wondering why exactly is that concerning? Because we often hear that your period can be an indicator of the state of your health. I think it's concerning because what we are hearing from young women is that it was asked of them in a way of diminishing maybe the wider concern and actually

you can look at the statistics around women who have attempted suicide and actually have died by suicide and often they were assessed as low risk prior to that. So I think that all plays into the sense that young women are getting that if they do reach out, which is incredibly difficult to do. So, you know, when you're at your lowest to actually go see someone or speak to someone, ask for professional help to then have it sort of be seen as perhaps less of a risk than it than it really is, will probably drive that person away and then not reach out at another point. There were some other figures also mentioned. One in five were told they were being dramatic at third rast if they were overthinking things. I mean, how do you combat that reaction

to the young women that are reaching out? And these are the ones that are reaching out. I want to underline that. Absolutely. And doesn't it speak to something around stereotypes of women as well, of kind of like that, you know, if we are expressing something strongly that we're overreacting or, you know, in some way being dramatic.

I think what we really strongly encourage at CALM is, you know, to stay hopeful. There is lots of hope, you know, with a campaign against living miserably. We're there to help Calm is to stay hopeful. There is lots of hope. We're the campaign against living miserably. We're there to help people live a better life. And actually, if you reach out and you're heard, you're seen, you're understood, and whether that be to a friend or to a professional, just to take time to sort of slow the pace down, to actually get to know what's really going on for someone,

there's masses that can be done and someone's life can really turn around at that point because i think what i'm hearing as well it echoes what i've heard in other situations not to do with suicide from women who believe that health care professionals aren't listening to them and those concerns they are informing the women's health strategy for England. I mean what do you think can be done to try and inform or educate the healthcare professionals that are actually taking care of them? I think it's tough at the moment there just aren't enough healthcare professionals who have the time to sit with someone to actually genuinely build up a sense of trust. It's quite difficult you, to go in and be really open about

everything that's going on for you. So I think for a start, we need more health professionals and their skills around empathy and compassion. You know, a young person or a young woman or a woman of any age, give her the time and the opportunity to talk things through. Quite often when women come forward, they will have spoken to others about it. Sometimes they will have already talked it through with friends, with family members, hopefully. So they're coming to that conversation sometimes with a sense of what is going on for them. So I think it's having time, really. I think also something we really want to encourage is that if you are concerned about somebody or, you know, just be serious about asking how they are. We know at Calm that people often worry about saying the word suicide, that they feel that if you ask someone directly,

are you feeling suicidal? Have you considered this? That that will put the idea into someone's head. Actually, the opposite is true. So I think for health professionals, families or friends, for all of us, really not to be afraid of that conversation. That's so interesting. I think you probably are hitting on something that a lot of people might be thinking about. But what do you hear from people who do get in touch with your charity? So we have a helpline. We have a helpline that runs every day, 5pm to midnight.

And we have many more calls from people than we're able to answer currently. But often it is that sense of not really wanting to be a burden to someone is why they might choose to call a helpline rather than speak to someone. So often what we're trying to do on the helpline is help people kind of think through how they might share that news with someone or let them know how things are going for them. There's a lot of shame around it, I think, as well. There's a lot of shame still around mental health. We've moved on massively, but there's still that sense that if you admit you're really struggling. I think for women as well, and young women, you know, maybe in a stage

in their lives when they're trying to kind of progress in so many different ways, to admit some vulnerability around struggling, they might fear that it'll get in the way of their careers, they fear that it'll get in the way of their relationships. So there's a lot of fear and shame. And that's what we have to try and help reduce because then people can come forward at an earlier point and not leave it to crisis. And I mean, it's impossible to ever know what's really going through anybody's head

if they do take their own life. But how do you understand this rise in figures that you are seeing for those young women under 25? There are so many ways to think about it. We need more research. Actually, we need to really understand what's going on. But there are many theories around. And we know the pressure of being a young person and all the pressures that are coming from whether it be externally or internally, how you feel about yourself or how the world is kind of telling you. There's loads of pressures in society currently aren't there as well. You know, fears for the future. How am I going to make my way in the

world? How am I going to manage economically? A whole range of things around that. And I think something for younger women, it's true to say that they don't necessarily have the perspective. I mean, someone when you get to my grand old age, I've been through enough scenarios to kind of have a sense that, okay, there's a pattern to some of this, you get through it, you reach out for help, things will improve. I think for younger women, they don't have that lifespan yet to give them that sense. So that's often again, why if you are someone that a young person trusts, and that you know, you can actually be a real leading light for them in helping them see that there is a way through. Thank you so much for speaking to us.

Wendy Robinson, Head of Services at Suicide Prevention Charity Campaign Against Living Miserably Can. And as we mentioned, they have a helpline. And if you have been affected by any of the issues raised in our conversation, there are links on the Woman's Hour website. Interesting also to hear Wendy there talking about age and the difference of age. I've been asking you this morning

about older women and how they're changing the narrative about what is expected and what can be done. Many of you are getting in touch. Here's one My mum is 85, a professional artist and still making new work of contemporary life, including people with disabilities and refugees. She's ahead of her time and her last exhibition was this year.

She's had five children and cares for a large family and has always continued her serious career as an artist. Here's another left school of 15 with no qualifications. At 48, I am a commercial pilot. At 50, I qualified as a boat builder. At 56, I qualified as a hypnotherapist. I received a certificate in CBT the following year and I've started a psychology degree. At 71, I'm still working as a therapist.

Never give up or stop learning. Gosh, I love that. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Let me turn to my next guest. She was born in India in 1920 and now at 102, she is a practising doctor and what an interesting life she has lived.

Dr. Gladys McGarry is co-founder of the American Holistic Medical Association and began her medical practice at a time when women couldn't even own their own bank accounts. She started medical school just before the Second World War. She married Bill, who was a fellow doctor, and together they practiced medicine, first in Ohio and then in Arizona. They also had six children. Dr. Gladys has now written a book, The Well-Lived Life, and I had the pleasure of talking to her recently and started by asking her about her life in India. Whoa.

Where to begin? Well, to begin at the beginning, my mom went into labor with me at the Taj Mahal, which I think is kind of dramatic. It is. Wow, what a birth story. And then had a wild ride in the Model T Ford to get to the hospital where I was born. But to me, growing up in India, before I went to school, it was idyllic. I mean, everything was just like it should be. My parents took their medical work out into the jungles of North India. And we were living there and it was just, it was wonderful. And it wasn't until I got into school and found out that I was, well, I didn't know what was wrong. I was dyslexic and the

teacher told everybody that I was a stupid one. So I was, my first two years in school were very, very difficult. And how did you, because we are talking decades ago, how did you manage then to fulfil your dream of becoming a doctor? Because I would imagine there wasn't much knowledge or education about dyslexia at that point. Well, I had an amazing family and my mother understood things that she taught me things by the way she lived and the way she responded. Let me tell you one story. After I spent the two years of being the class dumbbell, which really impacted my psyche. And I didn't really reclaim my voice until I was 93. Personally, I mean, I was doing all these things, but I didn't personally reclaim it because of

those two years. But when I went into third grade, our class had a play and I was the frog that jumped over the pond. And I was very proud of this. My mother made me a green frog suit and I walked out on the stage with great confidence. But as I looked out onto the audience, I saw my two older brothers in the first row, and it threw me off my step so that instead of jumping over the pond, I landed in it. Splash. So I'm standing in it. I'm crying. I can't move. I'm just immobilized.

I'm stuck. And the audience is hysterical. Oh, no. They're just laughing at themselves. And so the teacher finally comes and takes me off the stage and we come home. And we're at the table and my brothers are telling my mother how hysterical it was and how funny it was. And finally, she says, all right, boys, now you've had your fun. What can we do as a family so that if this ever happens to Gladys again, she'll be able to get people laughing with her and not at her?

And it's helped me. I can't tell you how many times I've started to walk off onto a stage and tripped or done something that was awkward. Because with this dyslexia stuff, your balance isn't quite right. So, you know, but I always was able to start off with something that got the audience in my hand before I ever got to, you know. I well believe it. How wise your mother was? something that got the audience in my hand before I ever got to, you know, say much. I well believe it. How wise your mother was. Oh, my mother was amazing. I want to move forward to 1978.

You and your husband were among the co-founders of the American Holistic Medical Association. How important was that to you? And how would you describe to our listener holistic medicine? When I started medical school was just as World War II started. I started in September in medical school and the war started in December. So all of our training was the war. The war was all about killing. We had to kill and destroy. But that shifted into medicine so that the whole focus of medicine was to kill disease and pain. So that's what we were being taught. And I was in medical school, and that's not what

I saw my parents doing in the jungles of North India. I saw them bringing love and caring to their patients and taking care of them because they didn't have much in the way of facilities. They had nothing but what we took into the jungles. But they had the healing work going on and amazing things. I was watching them take care of these people who had no one else to take care of them. And that's what I thought was medicine. So in reality, our dean in medical school sent me to the psychiatrist two different times because she thought I didn't have the right attitude towards medicine. But anyway, what was missing was the real essence of what I thought medicine was all about.

And when Bill and I got married, well, we came to Phoenix in 1955. Things were beginning to change because there was a woman who had written Silent Spring. You know, life was getting glimpses of, you know, there's something else that can be done too. And Bill began writing a letter that was called Pathways to Health. And we sent it out to other physicians who had corresponded with us. And we began to get this group of people who were thinking the same thing as we were, that there's more to medicine than is being taught or that we're expected to work with. And so we did. We started the American Holistic Medical Association. And it took us two years to decide how to spell holistic

because we realized that the word that we were looking for needed to be with health, healing, and holy. It was that essence that was missing in the word holistic. And so we started with saying the Holistic Medical Association was to be said with or written with an H anyway. And, you know, amazing things began to happen. And you know, an interesting thing. One day we were sitting, there were 10 of us doctors sitting around a table. And as we got to talking, we realized that of the 10 of us, six of us were

severely dyslexic. Really? And we looked at each other and we said, well, that's why we're doing the holistic, because we know there's something more. Because, you know, it leads me as well to a phrase that you use in your book, that healing comes from within. Not that it's everything, but it is part of it. How would you explain that to our listener?

Well I'll explain it with another story because my oldest son is a retired orthopedic surgeon and when he came through Phoenix to start his practice in Del Rio, Texas he said to me Mom, I'm real scared. He said, I'm going into the world and I'm going to have people's lives in my hands.

I don't think I can handle that. And I said, well, Carl, if you think you're the one that does the healing, you have a right to be scared. But if you can understand that this work that you have learned to do, orthopedic surgery is huge. People need that. If you've got broken bones or something that needs orthopedic work, you want a good orthopedic surgeon working with you. I said, you do your job to the best of your ability. And then you turn the healing over to the physician within the patient, who is your colleague now. There's that healing aspect of that patient, of every one of us, which is what does the healing we reclaim our own healing ability

and then cooperate with the physician on the outside to do the healing which has to be done within us because you know if each one of us don't accept the fact that we are responsible for our healing, that the doctor is giving us tools and we can use them or we can't, you know, it just depends. It's such an interesting concept because I think definitely I think I have grown up in a world where the doctor was all powerful. You know, that it was doctor-centered, if that makes sense. Absolutely. In fact, I have gone through issues about what I have done in the field of medicine, because when we started women birthing babies, women were given what was called twilight sleep. My first two children were born. I didn't know that I had sons for 24 hours after they were born

because I was totally anesthetized. Twilight sleep just absolutely puts you out. We learned this in medical school, and I learned it well. And so the only way the mother could not push the baby out, the only way that baby could be delivered was with forceps. And I was very good at doing that. I could get after coming ahead and have the baby delivered. So, you know, the way we were doing it was, as I look back now, it was horrible. But it was the way. It was the only way that we had of allowing women to birth their babies. And my theory is that what happened and how we got into that was when men began to become obstetricians, they couldn't stand the yelling that women did in labor.

And we women can handle that, you know. I mean, so you're in pain, so holler, let it out, you know. So they shut us up. And now, even to this day, we have so taken away women's actual power of their own being, we say that we have the doctors deliver babies. I have to catch myself when I'm talking about a baby that I helped birth and say, oh, I delivered her. I didn't deliver babies. We deliver pizzas. We deliver speeches. We don't deliver babies.

We women have the power to birth our own babies. And it's time we reclaimed that. Now, it doesn't mean that you have to be the one that suffers all of this. There are ways, you know, I have learned since, oh, man, there are ways that women can birth babies that are actually bliss. I had one woman who danced her baby out. Oh, yes. I loved that story. You know, kind of tricky for me to try to catch that baby. But it was the whole idea was,

this is your job. You know, I'm here to help you, but this is your job and you can do it. I know that's going to provoke so much discussion with our listeners. And obviously there may be medical interventions needed at time. But I take the concept that you're talking about, and that's fascinating about twilight sleep. I want to stay with medicine because you don't eschew conventional medicine. You have had cancer twice yourself.

The first time you did not have conventional medical treatment. The second time you did. And people might wonder why the change? Because medicine had evolved to a point where I did not feel it was as invasive. I felt it was the thing to do. It was available and much less traumatic to the body than it was when I, the first time. So my idea of holistic medicine is that it's working with conventional medicine and holistic medicine. They're a team. And you're working together to see which direction you're going to go.

Life is so good, but it has its hard places. You know, you alluded to there that life can be hard. And you, like many listening, have suffered some big losses. The death of your daughter, Annie Lou, who died in her 50s and the end of your marriage when your husband, Bill, after 46 years together and six children later, when you were nearly 70, announced he was leaving you for another woman. And I will say it was a nurse who worked in your practice. That's a lot of life challenges. I don't know. How did you cope with that? It sucks. There you go. That's it summed up in a phrase. Well, you know, I was another story. I was coming home from work

and well, actually, my youngest daughter and I started our practice Scottsdale Holistic Medical Group two weeks after we left the ARE clinic where Bill and I had started this whole movement and we moved into Scottsdale and started our own practice But I was riding home to my home, which was empty now because Bill wasn't there. But I did have my dog, Crystal, so I had something to go. So I'm riding, but I was yelling in my car. I was in my car. Nobody was there to listen, but I was letting God know how bad I felt and how broken I was and all of this. And all of a sudden, I pulled my car off to the side of the road and I stopped. And the words came down to me.

This is the day the Lord has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it. And I said, okay, okay. And so I went home and I had my license plate, be glad. So I changed my license plate. And the rest of the time that I was in practice here in Arizona, my car went around the state saying, be glad. It was a message that I had to get for myself

in order that I could share it with other people. And the fact of the matter was, I realized, look what you have not what you lost I mean you can spend your time picking that scab and hurting and hurting or you can let it heal

and then you can look back and say oh I remember That is Dr. Gladys McGarry The Well-Lived Life A 102-year-old doctor, six secrets to health and happiness at every age. I found her such a calming and powerful interview. I hope you did too. Lots of you getting in touch while listening to Gladys. We're asking about what you or somebody you know did at an older age.

We're celebrating older women on Women's Hour. Here's one. At the age of 66, when I became a pensioner, I decided to do something I've always wanted to do. I became a solo jazz swing singer. I've had about 13 gigs with more planned for the summer and I've already booked some for Christmas and I love it. Definitely, if you want to have a go, it's never too late.

I have bright pink hair too, so says our listener. Here's another one. Jean, I'm 71, currently rehearsing the lead role for a feisty older woman in 24 Day, a new community production soon to be on in the Almeida Theatre.

This is my first pro acting role for 50 years. I started acting as a kid and gave it up in my early 20s and I am loving it. It's very physically demanding. There's singing, there's dancing. I'm learning new skills, including cheerleading and goal scoring, bringing us back to our first item with Hope Powell. I've never felt younger, says Jean.

That sounds amazing. Best of luck with all the training. Let me turn to another woman who has done a lot of the things that Jean has done. Deirdre O'Kane has a vast resume. She became a stand-up comic in 1996 and got into the finals of the BBC New Comedy Awards that year.

She also has an acting career, playing the lead role in the 2014 biopic Noble, as Christina Noble, a children's rights campaigner, for which she received an Irish Film and Television Academy Award. On telly she's been Deborah Moon in Sky Comedy's Moon Boy and also one of the narrators

of the Irish version of Gogglebox. Was also runner up on the Irish version of Dancing with the Stars so the Irish thought strictly but called Dancing with the Stars in Ireland. And the past few years have also been a whirlwind. She's co- called Dancing with the Stars in Ireland. And the past few years have also been a whirlwind. She's co-founder of Comic Relief in Ireland.

She had a talk show, Deirdre O'Kane Talks Funny on RTE, as well as the Deirdre O'Kane Show on Sky Max. So I'm just kind of giving a smattering there, Deirdre, of your life. This week, you're bringing your new stand-up show, Demented, to London's Soho Theatre. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. It's lovely when you get older,

your CV is very long. Well, they're all wonderful and interesting things. I like the ladies that are getting in touch today that are adding things even in those later years, which we are loving.

But you know, about your show, I read that there's a point you say beyond burnout where all you can do is laugh um have you reached that point oh I definitely have absolutely because uh in in this show I mean the title of it is interesting demented because I wrote it during COVID but also I kind of started writing about menopause and I was in the thick of it, you know, and we all know it's

rubbish. There's not a lot to recommend it. But I also didn't want to write about it because I'm quite vain, you know, which is actually a good thing to be. It's important to have a bit of vanity. So I thought, no, I don't want to be talking about menopause. You know, there's a lot of women who go, no, that's not coming into my house. Because of ageing or what was behind the vanity of talking about the menopause? I think because of the stigma, the old stigma that you're kind of done, you're dried up. You've come into that sort of middle age phase in your life and you just don't want to go there. So you kind of even subconsciously, you go into some kind of denial. Go, no, no, I'm not there. I'm not dealing with that.

That's not happening until you go mad and you realise, no, yeah, you really need to address this love. So and then, you know, I totally accepted that there is really no room for vanity in comedy. It's not going to serve anybody. I've got to talk to my audience and my audience is largely women who've come up with me. Although interesting, interestingly, they're getting younger because of Instagram. Thanks be to God. But I just thought, OK thought okay i'm gonna i have to embrace this and then once i did you know i found it very funny so that's the point i suppose where you go you go beyond it um but yeah i was when i finally went to see a doctor um she said to me well what's going

on with you first of all she was the first time I'd ever got to a doctor who was considerably younger than me, very blonde and very pretty. I hated her on sight. And I said to her, I'm just demented. I'm actually, there's so much, I'm actually just demented now. I don't know where it has started. It's a very good Irish word as well, I think. We'd often hear, I'm driven demented by X.. Yeah it's just a thing that we say. I'm sure there are people who don't like it now and that says all sorts of connotations that don't work with the woke brigade but I can't I haven't got the time for that now. I've no patience is a thing I'm very short on so I just plough on. Go ahead so you get to the doctor and was she helpful? She was eventually.

She was. I mean, you know, she said to me, well, could you narrow it down? Like you're demented. Like, what is it? I said, well, the brain fog. I said, I can't remember.

I cannot remember. I don't know who I'm talking to. I said, names are absolutely gone from me. I've started numbering people. I'm saying things like, oh, look look there's 52 at 12 o'clock you know so I said that that's really bad and then I said I have this instant such as I haven't people are not just annoying me as I've gone I've gone off people I've actually

gone off them everyone and everything annoys me I said well you're annoying me now and you've said nothing and she said okay and then I said and it's more than annoyance it's like a rage it's more like a road it's like a road rage except I'm not on the road I'm in the house and it could happen very very quickly I could go from naught to 100 very fast and and then I I ended up saying to her I'll do it for you because you're not going to understand I said you won't get you won't get it unless I do it for you so I was up you know the way you just this is probably an Irish thing when you get up to perform because you were always made to as a child it's kind of you. So I was up. You know the way you just, this is probably an Irish thing where you get up to perform because you were always made to as a child.

It's kind of a trauma. Anyway, I was up. I was up on my feet going through. I said I could come into the house after a perfectly good day. I could have had a good day and I could say to them all, how was school?

Was it good? Did you have a good day? Great, that's great. And how was the office? Good, good, brilliant. So have you eaten or is the dinner on? Now, that's a loaded, loaded question. But what happens is if I was met with a dozy, dopey response,

saying, huh, what do you mean, the dinner? I don't know about the dinner. Was I meant to get the dinner? I go, oh my God, have you eaten or is the dinner on? And you get, oh my God, I don't know. What does it mean, was I meant to get the dinner? And that's it. That's it. I would blow. I go, oh my god i left it ready a tray of food chicken potatoes chorizo because you like it you little i can't say it on radio four right and then the

next thing i'm screaming and there's kids diving behind sofas and hiding behind chairs the cat the cat was in an awful state because she couldn't cope with the shouting in fact i actually had to take the cat to the vet recently because she had digestive issues and the vet thought she was a rescue cat, a traumatised rescue cat. I had to pretend that I'd smuggled the cat back from Gaza with me. I said, no, no, there's nothing wrong with that cat. I said, that cat comes from Gaza. She's just used to warfare.

That's another story. That is part of comic relief, actually, just to let our listeners know why you might be referencing Gaza as well at this time. So you have low tolerance, you're role playing in the doctor's office but this is very good material for your show. Well this is the thing, I mean the thing about, the best thing about comedy is that comedy plus tragedy plus time you know makes things funny and I've never gotten anything funny out of the good things in my life. Nobody wants to hear about your lovely life. Seriously, people just would like to know

about the awful things because that comforts the rest of us. Well, an awful thing that did happen is your father did die. And I know you bring him into the demented show as well. And perhaps menopauseause the pushing back against it is not just vanity but it is about the passage of time and these big life moments that happen that can be very sad but can be very funny too well of course i mean you've you've if we don't find the humor we will go mad like we what choice do you have like you know it you know that phrase um let the good times roll you you don't understand phrases like that until you're older and then you suddenly realize oh my god i had a period of time there where nobody was dying and nobody was sick and and nothing and i

didn't have financial problems and that was a golden hour and maybe i didn't realize it you know so then when when the stuff goes, if we do not laugh together about this stuff, you know, we will crack up. So, I mean, my dad, my lovely dad was very eccentric and I didn't appreciate really quite how cracked he was until he passed. And I started writing about him, but it was very cathartic for me. And I have some people think, I think that I'm a bit derogatory about him, but he wouldn't care. My father was all about make money, love, get the money in, make hay, for God's sake. So if he thought that I was making money out of whatever I'm saying about him. He'd approve.

Delighted, yes. In particular, he hated the banks and he hated rain, which is extraordinary because he was Irish. He was an Irish man. And I used to say to him, you have to make peace with this. This is where we live. But you'd also have to lose out on 50% of conversations that you have in Ireland. So that's another part.

You know, if you're not talking about rain, you could be talking maybe about money. But you were pretty much the only woman when you started out in comedy. How does it look to you now? There's so many, not just female comedians, but Irish female comedians on the scene. I know. It's fantastic, isn't it? It's so great. Yeah, you know what? I didn't notice. I did notice, but I didn't take in what an obstacle it was to be the only woman. I didn't fully understand that.

I think my coping mechanism was that I became one of the lads and I was very very fond of my male comic colleagues very I got on great with them but you don't realize that it's a disadvantage to be the only woman in the room and they say it's the disadvantage to be the only anything the only black person the only woman the the only whatever is a you know is a is a tricky position to be in it's a and I didn't get that um and I would have loved to have had some other women in the room but there just weren't any um and I and I had to become one of the lads to to survive it that was that was how I did it but yeah it is the business is full of women doing exceptionally well and you know what it's we're not talking

about anything different by the way we all cover the same subjects it's just that for the first time you're actually getting the female perspective so people think that we're talking about different things we aren't we aren't and even my audience if they've to listen to me talking about menopause as the men in my audience love that stuff. They live with us. They share our lives. This impacts everyone around us. So they love when I'm talking about this stuff. I want to turn

back to age again. In 2018, you were runner up in the Irish version of Strictly Dancing with the Stars. We see today Angela Rippon reportedly set to be the oldest contestant at 78. In our last minute, Deirdre, did age make a difference to your taking part,

do you think, as we celebrate older women today on Women's Hour? You were, what, 50 and you were in the final? I turned 50 on the day of the final. I was more than the combined ages of the other two.

They were 19 and 23. And yes, it did affect me. I was physically broken. I was literally held together with sellotape. In fact, don't tell anyone, but I took steroids. My husband had had a bit of cancer and there was a few left in the house and I took them on the day because I thought I cannot get up. I might have to remind you that you are on national radio, so not telling anybody that might be gone out the window. Yeah, we've lost it there. You are heading up to the Edinburgh Festival Fringe. You have been an actor, but you are obviously doing your comedy.

How do you feel going back up to Edinburgh? Well, I'm not really going to do much of Edinburgh this week. I'm in London next week in Soho Theatre for four nights. Yeah, sorry, I should have said Fringe this summer and it's Soho next week. But Soho next week. I lived in London for 10 years and I have missed it.

I've missed it a lot. I have great friends there. So I am dying to get back. And I used to go back every year to London to do shows, but COVID kind of stopped it. So I, yeah, I listen. I can't wait.

I'll be there from Wednesday night next week until the Saturday. In the Soho Theatre Demented is the name of her show. Deirdre O'Kane thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Good to have you with us. Tomorrow

an actor who has appeared in three of the highest grossing movies of all time that's the Avatar films and the Avengers Endgame. Zoe Saldana is taking a break from sci-fi and fantasy to star instead in a new Earth-based TV series. It's a spy thriller all about a covert programme to train female soldiers as undercover operatives around the world. She recorded an interview with me before the Actors' Strike was voted on last week. So do join me for that. And thanks for all your messages.

Anna, getting in touch. I'm still working at 81 as an Alexander Technique professional. I'll speak to you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, Woman's Hour listeners. I'm Dr Michael Moseley

and in my new BBC Radio 4 podcast, Stay Young, I'm investigating some simple, scientifically proven things you can do to rejuvenate yourself from the inside out. Which will you try? Maybe a slice of mango to reduce your wrinkles. Mmm, delicious. Or learning something new to stay sharp.

Hi, OK. Hi, OK. How about lifting some weights to protect your muscles against the ravages of time? To hear all about how to stay young, subscribe to the podcast on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.