Woman's Hour - Horror films, Women's FA, Teen pregnancy, MPs standing down

Episode Date: October 31, 2019

On Halloween we ask where are the women in the horror film industry? How much do women create and view horror differently and who are the women film-makers to look out for? Jane is joined by Aislinn Clarke, the writer-director of ‘The Devil's Doorway’, Lizzie Franke, production executive at the BFI and Anna Bogutskaya, co-founder of The Final Girls, a film collective exploring the intersections of horror films and feminism. So far seventeen women MPs have announced they'll be standing down and not standing in the general election. Newsnight's Katie Razzall joins us to look at the significance of prominent female politicians such as Amber Rudd, Nicky Morgan and Gloria De Piero standing down. It's 50 years since the Women’s FA was created in 1969, officially reviving women's football for the first time since it was banned it in 1921. We speak to Patricia Gregory, one of the players who was instrumental in founding the WFA and reversing the ban, about how they did it - and to Eniola Aluko, who has played over 100 times for England, to reflect on where the women’s game stands today and what the the FA has done for women's football since they regained control in the 1990s. And, teenage pregnancy rates have been falling in the UK and are now at the lowest level since records began in the 1960s but it continues to have one of the highest teenage birth rates in Western Europe. Pregnant Teens is a new BBC podcast that follows three girls Nicole, Megan and Robyn through their pregnancies in Middlesbrough, a town that is bucking the trend - with the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in England and Wales. Jane looks at the realities of young motherhood with Dr Kim Jamie, Assistant Professor in Sociology at the University of Durham and young mum Chyna Powell-Henry. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Ruth Watts

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Today we are talking politics. Why are apparently so many women heading for the Westminster door marked exit? What is going on there? We'll talk about that this morning. It's Halloween. There are many sad things about your children getting older. But a good thing is that you don't have to worry about Halloween. But we are marking it on Women's Air today. We'll talk about women and horror films. We'll talk too about the 50th anniversary of the creation of the Women's FA. And we'll discuss teenage

pregnancy. Were you a teenage mother? How was it for you? Perhaps your own mother was a teenage mother. Your parents were teenagers you? Perhaps your own mother was a teenage mother, your parents were teenagers when you were born. What was that experience like and was it actually wholly negative? We're going to hear much more about the positive side of being a teenage parent on the programme today. Now, Nicky Morgan is the latest in a long line of prominent female MPs to head for the door. Also going are fellow Tories Caroline Spellman, Amber Rudd, Mims Davies, Claire Perry, Seema Kennedy and Sarah Newton. Labour's Kate Hoey is off, so too is Dame Louise Ellman

and Gloria de Piero, and former Tories Heidi Allen and Justine Greening. Katie Razzell is the UK editor of Newsnight. There are other MPs who are going as well of course and certainly not all of them are female but there does appear to be something of a pattern forming here Katie It does look like it, that is for sure I think Nicky Morgan's decision last night that did come as a surprise to me

and some of them are less surprising I suppose but a lot of them are talking about this sort of toxic culture. They're citing the abuse that they get as a reason for leaving. I mean, Nicky Morgan said in her resignation letter that the impact on her family and the sacrifices and abuse a modern MP receives a part of it. Although she did also mention the need to ensure that Parliament does what the people want. And that's obviously a nod to Brexit more than a nod to Brexit, more than a nod. I guess what I've been thinking about is, you know, if it is the case that a lot of them are standing down because of the abuse, or very much because of the abuse, not entirely, obviously, you know, is that the same for the men? Is this something that,

you know, has any man, I haven't trawled through everybody leaving, but no man I've seen who's standing down has cited the level of abuse as being you know a major reason for leaving. Although you're right we don't know that they haven't been abused. Of course we don't and I'm sure they are and they say you know many men say they are abused but I guess they don't get the rape threats and you know the awful things. Well none of them we should say should get any of this abuse. Of course. I'm interested in a tweet that Paul Brand from ITV tweeted out last night just bumped into an MP in floods of tears and distress about the sheer volume of abuse she's had this week. And I apologise for this language, but people do need to know that this is the sort of stuff that is chucked out at this time.

Hundreds of messages this MP has had, including, you stupid fat bitch um this is why would anyone do a job a difficult job under trying circumstances and get stuff like that thrown at them and the tragic thing i suppose is that is par for the course i think i mean there's a question should we even be be talking about this should we even be referencing that tweet because you know it just incites other people we know to do similar things people as we know think that because there's this sort of anonymity about social media they you know say things that they probably wouldn't say in public although we've started to see that people do also say it in public I can't remember which MP it was but one of them standing there I know

it's Antoinette Sandbach who's not standing down she says she fears she gets fearful when she's on the doorstep. As a female MP, she always takes someone with her. She wouldn't knock on somebody's door because she'd be worried about the reaction she'd get on the other side. I mean, that is a terrible state of politics, if that's the case. But that MP that you're talking about, that Paul Brown was talking about, she received 2,000 abusive messages in a week. I mean, Anna Soubry, who's now an independent, said on Newsnight last night, there's a difference, we all get abuse, but there's a difference between abuse and

threats. And actually, what's happened to a lot of these MPs is prosecutions of people who have threatened death. You know, we could not forget that it was only in the last election that a female MP was killed, Jo Cox. And there have been, you know, attempted murder cases

carried out, successfully prosecuted against other MPs too so it is a really dangerous, worrying time. Joe Cox actually died didn't she around the time of the European referendum in 2016, a devastating incident and we cannot actually reference that often enough in this context

to remind people of what actually happened in Britain not that long ago. There is a fear, there must be a fear, that we've got about, what, 30% of the House of Commons is made up of female MPs. Bearing all this in mind, are we likely to see that figure go down after this election? Because are women going to rush to stand at this time? Well, that is the question, exactly.

What message does it send to female voters? What message does it send to female candidates? Clearly what we've known before, people have said the House of Commons isn't a very female-friendly atmosphere anyway. Add to that this, what does it mean? Now I do know, because clearly Boris Johnson put aside Brexit, if we all can, for a minute. There's an awful lot of One Nation stuff

that he wants to send out that message. He's not a hard-right politician. He's actually very consensual. Look at what he did with the mayor of London. So my understanding is they're desperately trying to find, you know, promote some female candidates to stand in winnable seats for this election so that they'll, you know, the intake won't change. I'm sure Labour's doing the same. All the parties will be doing the same. But, you know, it's such a fluid election, isn't it? We don't know where it's going to end up. It is also a possibility that Labour MPs like Caroline Flint, Yvette Cooper, might actually have problems hanging on to their seat.

They're both in what you would imagine would be rock-solid Labour constituencies. But Yvette Cooper is not a lever, is she? She's absolutely not. There's so many seats, of course, in this election where it's very difficult to know what will happen because, you know, as we wondered in 2017 too, if you're in a seat which voted very much to leave and you're a Remainer, but you're a Labour MP

and that seat has voted Labour forever, are people most loyal to the fact that you have a policy on austerity and they believe trust you in the NHS and all of that? Or is Brexit trumping everything? And that's what the Conservatives thought was going to happen last time. And it didn't. But we do know that Boris Johnson's strategy this time is to win some of those Labour leave seats. He has to win some of those Labour leave seats. Otherwise, he's not going to form a majority and we'll be in the same situation as we're in now. And I'm sure nobody in the country wants that.

Whatever way you want to vote, we can't, you know. Do we want a hung parliament again? Who knows? Can we make a date? Friday the 13th of December. We'll have you back. Great. Love to.

Let's find out what happens. Katie Rouswell from Newsnight. Thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning on Women's Hour. And you can get involved as well, of course. It's at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, or you can email the programme via our website, bbc.co.uk

slash womenshour. Maybe, actually, you've got a favourite horror film. The ten highest grossing horror films of all time were directed by men. This is according to a list compiled by Forbes. So where are the women in the current, in the contemporary horror industry? And how much do we enjoy horror films? Well, we can talk to Aisling Clark. She is the first Irish woman to write and

direct a horror film. She's in our Belfast studio. Good morning to you. Hello. The Devil's Doorway is the name of your film. Came out last year. I was lucky enough to watch a little bit of it last night. It is terrifying. And we'll discuss it in more detail in a moment. With me in London, Lizzie Franke, who is Senior Production Executive at the BFI, which helps to provide funding for British films.

Good to see you, Lizzie. And Anna Bucketskier is the co-host of a podcast called The Final Girls, co-founder too of a film collective of the same name. Welcome to you. Good to see you, Anna. So, Ashlyn, let's talk about The Devil's Doorway. It's set in a Magdalene laundry. Now, tell us more. Well, Magdalene laundries were Irish church state run institutions for women where you didn't have to do anything illegal you could be put in there for basically any kind of female behaviour that was considered to be aberrant in any way so you could be put in for being too considered to be too easy or for getting pregnant out of wedlock or or for, in some cases, being too pretty and considered a danger to the men in the community.

So what you've done is you have firmly rooted a horror film in total Irish reality, haven't you? Do you find that more frightening than the crazy alternative universes of some other horror films? Yes, I do. I think the best horror for me is horror that's rooted in some kind of social trauma. And in the case of Magdal horror films. Yes, I do. I think the best horror for me is horror that's rooted in some kind of social trauma. And the

case of Magdalene Laundrie is the last one closed in 1996, so we're not talking about total ancient history here. This is in living memory. And I myself had my son when I was 17 and that was 1997, so I always felt that I could have been one of those girls and I wanted

to tell that story. I think horror can be very useful as a way of a metaphorical tool that helps us to unpick and understand social trauma. You're getting a lot of supportive nods in London this morning, I can tell you that. We'll come back to you. Let's just play a short clip from The Devil's Doorway.

What are you crying, child? They're lonely. They have no mothers. I want her cleaned up and given medical attention. I forgot to get the girls some proper food. Remove these chains now. I'm not going to ask again. Reverent mother.

How much did you have to exaggerate ashlyn well i mean i think the scariest things the most horrific things in the film for me always were the real things that happen to real people in this in the world in these places so about 10 years ago i was working in tv and working more in kind of documentaries. And I did a lot of research into these places. And I've used some of those stories in my writing. And for me, that's what's scariest. The horror is just used as a... The supernatural things that happen are a metaphorical tool

that helps us to kind of get into that. I think in your film, you use a lot of what's called found footage. What is that exactly? Found footage is a device where you present the film as though it was shot by someone else. So if we think of something like the Blair Witch Project, you're presenting it as a found artifact rather than a film that was contrived by someone. That's the device of found footage. If anybody wants to watch your film, and believe me, you should, Sky Cinema and Amazon Prime, it's available there. So, Anna, where do you see women in horror in 21st century Britain?

Who are the great filmmakers we should know about? I think there's a real movement right now, not just with British filmmakers, but with international filmmakers as well. There's been what people have been calling a wave of feminist horror or of female directors who are approaching very different sub-genres, from slasher films to psychological horrors to more metaphorical things. And currently, I think there's a number of British female filmmakers, like Ruth Platt, like Prana Bailey Bond, like Rose Glass,

who have all either made films or are in the process of making horror films. And the audience, is the audience still, well, I was going to say, is it still overwhelmingly male? Maybe it never has been. I don't think it's ever been. Traditionally, and this is one of the misconceptions that there's always been about the horror genre, is that the audience is predominantly male. But actually, even statistically, it's always been pretty gender balanced. So it's always been pretty 50-50. But the marketing mechanics and the way the distributors position and promote the films has traditionally been oriented towards men. And it's true that in some cases, female characters in particular have not been particularly well

treated by the horror genre. But there's been an abundance of talent always behind the screen and on screen that has been female and have led stories and female anxieties kind of really surface in some of the best horror films made in history. And there's a particular new wave coming through now where women are really both writing, producing, directing, and twisting the genre on its head to prioritise those female stories. Well, Lizzie from the BFI, you've brought along a clip for us. We're very lucky to have this because it's from a film that doesn't even have a name yet.

It's from a production company called Stigma Films, directed by Corrine of Faith. And let's just hear a clip from this. It is a bit of a maze, this place. We have to move nearly all the patients out because of the cut tonight. Place people die in should never be allowed to get that dark. I need a girl for tonight. The dark shift.

The only ward left here tonight is antenatal and intensive care. There is a pattern forming here. Antenatal, children. What do you think is going on in our collective subconscious? A lot of anger in the world at the moment and a lot of female anger. Just hearing the previous item about abuse in Parliament, the films that Aisling's described and the film that Karina's just made about is about institutional abuse within organisations. In Karina's case, it's set in a big teaching hospital in the 1970s against the backdrop of the three day week. I'm seeing women directors coming to us with projects that are really slashing to the pulse of the times.

They really are tapping into lots of anxieties. Lots of anxieties. I mean, motherhood is a really rich territory for the horror form. And we've got a film that we're developing that's about post-natal depression and psychosis. I think these are really rich subject matters. And I think the sort of wave of anger has finally bubbled to the surface and it's very exciting because those feelings are finding fables

and modern-day fairy stories to sort of work out those anxieties. And you don't think Rosemary's Baby, Carrie, The Exorcist, they were all around. Do you really think things are changing? I think there's a lot of women have given themselves permission to tell stories and there's an infrastructure, whether it's the work that Anna's doing, the work we're doing at the BFI

to welcome those stories. But, you know, I was inspired as a teenager by Halloween. That was co-written by Deborah Hill, produced by Deborah Hill. Actually, there's a lot of women have been in the history of horror. I mean, the greatest horror novel ever written was by a 19 year old called Mary Shelley. So it's sort of there in the ether. And now I think women are running with the ammunition of being given the camera and the writing tools to come up with great stories.

And Ashlyn, do you consider yourself part of that movement? I think I am sort of by default because I'm making horror films right now, yes. I know you're Irish rather than British, we should say. Well, I'm Northern Irish, so technically. Oh gosh, don't get into that. Well, you can be whatever you want, of course, these days. So your next project, what is that going to be? I have a couple of things in development.

I'm working on a folk horror film. Of course, everybody's in the horror scene. A lot of people are talking about folk horror at the minute called Godmother. That does get into some of these issues around motherhood and femininity and female power in a negative way as well as in a positive way. And when you look back to your adolescence, was there a horror film that you saw and you could tell, although it might feature female characters, it was emphatically not made by women? That's an interesting question.

I think I was never a big fan of a certain type of horror film that's really about just slasher films the likes of Friday the 13th and I know women that love these films too but for me I never really chimed with them and I think there's a lot of films where we're just piling up

women's bodies and basically reinforcing a virgin whore dichotomy where the final girl at the end of the film is the girl who's virtuous and who is played by all the rules and all the other girls who go against the rules and have sex outside marriage and so on. They all get dispatched,

and I never really chimed with those films. Can I just ask you very briefly, as you mentioned being a mum when you were young, was it a positive looking back? I think it was for me because I have that done. My friends now are having babies and they're dealing with all of that. I had my son and I'm not going to have any other kids. And I've been able to focus on my career and moving forward with that.

Whereas my teens and early 20s and right up to my 30s actually were taken over with motherhood. And as a single parent and not having very much money and going through university and postgrad and everything. It wasn't easy. So yes, in a way, I think it was better to do it then. Thank you very much, Aisling. Aisling Clark, the first Irish woman to write and direct a horror film. That's The Devil's Doorway.

And you also heard from Anna Booker-Skyer and from Lizzie Franke. Thank you very much to you both. Tomorrow's programme, we are live from Tobacco Dock in East London. This is part of BBC Introducing. So if you know somebody who wants to get into the music industry, or if that person is you, make sure you're listening to

Women's Hour Tomorrow, all about careers in music. Now a huge amount of excitement about the women's football match at Wembley next weekend. England against Germany is a complete sellout. You might not know that the 1st of November tomorrow marks 50 years since

the women's FA was created. Officially reviving women's football for the first time since the FA banned it in 1921. Patricia Gregory was instrumental in founding the WFA and reversing that ban. Eniola Aluco played over 100 times for England, now plays her football in Italy for Juventus.

I asked Patricia if she could ever have imagined the sellout women's match at Wembley. Oh, heavens no. I still quote people our record crowd of 5,471, which was back in about 1984, I think. Tell me about your love affair with football, actually. It's not too grand a term. When did it start? Long time ago. My brother played football. My father used to attend Spurs. I think that's why my brother became an Arsenal supporter.

And my father wouldn't take me to football. I wasn't allowed to go because I was a girl. And he finally took me when I was about 15. I can't honestly remember feelings of a great passion for it at all. But I did think, you know, this was something that girls could do and why weren't they doing it? So what happened when you tried to set up a girl's team? What happened? Well, I wrote to my local newspaper and said, why didn't girls play football? Girls responded and said, I want to join your team, which took me, took me aback. And we met in my parents' front room and we formed a team. But when I got in touch with the local council in all innocence to try and get training facilities and a pitch they said oh no you can't do that

um can't we can't hire you anything because in 1921 the FA banned women from playing football and that is it's true it's actually still a little known fact, isn't it, that? I think it is, yes. It stayed. The women were not legally, shall we say, under the FA's rules, allowed to play football until we got that 1921 rule lifted in the late 60s. And you played your first game when? Oh, we were playing before that. I put an advert in a soccer magazine and men's and boys teams challenged us.

So we had to go to their facilities to play matches. And this advert was seen by Arthur Hobbs, who was then running. He ran from 67 to 69. The deal became an international women's football tournament. And out of that tournament in 69 grew the Women's Football Association. What is interesting is that those men's and boys' teams who were challenging you to games, they were flouting FA regulations. Yes, they were. I can't for the life of me tell you if any of them were banned, but they did.

I mean, there were referees who were suspended because they refereed women's matches. And because, of course, that was the other thing we couldn't get. We couldn't get official referees. What was the logic to the ban on women playing in these spaces? Was it thought that simply the game wasn't right for women and girls, was too physical? Well, in 1921, the Football Association, and bear in mind this is just after the First World War, the men were coming back and trying to reclaim the jobs that a lot of women had

taken on. So I imagine part of the thinking was that they were going to reclaim football because women had started to play quite a lot. And to big crowds too. And to big crowds too. And to big crowds. Their statement was something like that it wasn't suited to the female form to play football. And also that money ostensibly raised for charitable purposes they weren't convinced was reaching those charitable purposes.

Enia Luko, listening to that, this is all, well to you actually as listening to that, this is all, well to you actually as a young woman, this is practically ancient history, no offence to Patricia. Do you know much about how the women's FA got going? I don't know much about how they got going, but

obviously we've all been sort of keenly aware that the FA banned women's football 50 plus years ago. And that's been very much part of the history of shaping and affecting what we do now, because it means that although women's football has moved on, you know, commercially, broadcasting, you know, we're always sort of 50 years behind the men's games. But you have stuck your head above the parapet and point out, amongst many other things,

that you actually lost money playing for your country, which is just crazy, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. When I say we, I mean the England team. We qualified for the World Cup in 2007 in China and we got to the quarterfinals and it was the first time we'd been to a World Cup in 2007 in China, and we got to the quarterfinals, and it was the first time we'd been to a World Cup in 12 years. The pay was sort of, we were on a day pay of maybe less than £100 a day.

I distinctly remember a lot of the players sort of saying, well, you know, this is not sustainable. Like, you know, I've got to pay a mortgage, or I've got three kids. Real life, basically, issues that women had that financially, you know, we were taking unpaid leave from work and we just couldn't really sustain it. And yet we'd been to, you know,

World Cup for the first time in 12 years. We were effectively financially suffering to play for England. At this point, the FA had brought the women's FA into the main association it had taken ownership of the women's game but appeared not terribly willing to go much further than that. Well I think I think to be honest the FA and a lot of associations around the world have always got away with it because no one questions it and everybody sees women's football as an amateur sport. The contradiction is when you do well at a World Cup,

everybody wants to make noise about that and shout at the rooftops. But you can't have won without paying the very athletes that got you there. I think the FA got away with it for a long time and I think it was until probably I said something on BBC and other players said listen this is actually the reality that the media then thought is doing what you've done now I said well this is ridiculous that needs to change so slowly slowly that's become you know central contracts and you know the FA effectively bought the time of players but for a long time it was just that's

the way it was and we all just got on with it and played for england patricia are you surprised to hear that the fa were quite reluctant to really embrace the idea of paying the women properly you have to remember any probably doesn't realize that when we formed the women's fa FA formed the England team in 1972, there was no money. And the girls, throughout the time of the WFA, which ran until 93 when we handed it over to the Football Association, all of those England players were holding down jobs and families

and everything else, and really paying themselves to play for England. We couldn't even afford to have the caps that they won properly made. And so one of our number, Flo Bilton, she actually sewed the England caps. We should point out, in case anybody doesn't know, these are caps that are given to anybody whenever they represent their their country yeah any you do you did you get them for when you played for england yes i did i did um and you know i certainly framed mine and and put mine in one of those special boxes on display in my house and it's literally a daily reminder of you know i mean i played for england for 11 years of the 11 years of sort of

honor and sacrifice and play at the highest level so it's very very important and it's amazing to hear that players had to pay for those before i'm always conscious to be grateful of those players because without them we wouldn't be where we are now it's about about being fair. I mean, it's about allowing women to do something that they are being told, usually by men, that they can't do. And I suppose, you know, there is something in most of us, perhaps not all, that when somebody tells you you can't do something, that makes you even more determined that you will do it. Annie I don't know whether you were aware of the debt that you and your fellow players owe to people like Patricia who put the work in many many years ago. Yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure I call it a debt I just think it's it's something that we have to be very aware of when we complain

or when we you know we don't understand that actually it's been a journey to get to this point and it's about keeping your feet on the ground and being humble. Women's football now is at a point where we are making a lot more money. The contracts are better, commercially they're better, superstars are being made and it's important not to forget where it came from. What is important, I think, Annie, is that women don't want to be too grateful, do they? Because if you're too grateful, then nothing's going to get any better. Yeah I think I think I don't think women should be too grateful in terms of their mentality towards how the game is

worrying you know so for example the model now is very much that women's teams are an extension of the men's team the men's club so women's you have Chelsea women who sit within the men's club now obviously that's an investment from the men's club and the women's teams aren't necessarily breaking making any money and so there's this problem of well the club the men's clubs are investing in the women but they're not making any money and that's why I feel like there shouldn't be too much guilt about that or there shouldn't be too much gratitude about it because ultimately that's where the men's game was.

The men's game had to take investment too, and it didn't make money straight away. And some clubs still aren't making money. So I have a lot of conversations around women's teams and saying, don't put pressure on yourself to be selling out stadiums in the first two years of your professional status. That's not going to happen. And it didn't happen with the men. So I think that's where the mentality shift is really important,

of this kind of changing from this sort of charity mentality to, no, this is an elite programme that deserves the level of investment that men previously had. And do you care about the difference between the words women and ladies? I think it's a little bit like saying, you know, what do I prefer to be called? Any Ola or any, you know, in a sort of formal setting. I think any Ola is what I prefer to be called if you don't know me very well. I mean, there's nothing wrong with being called

ladies, but I think it's more professional and it's more modern to call women's teams women. Women, yeah. Do you have a view on that, Patricia? Well, we were told in the very early days, sort of months of forming the Ladies' FA of Great

Britain, we were told by the sporting authorities not the FA that women was a more all-embracing term. Ladies played golf women played cricket and football and whatever else.

Can we just have a brief word, Eniola about the England game against Germany? It is a sell-out. Wembley going to be packed, we believe, which is great. On the other hand, England haven't actually won a game for quite some time, have they? Yeah, I think they've not won in five now. So there's a bit of pressure on Phil Neville. But, you know, playing at Wembley, again, five, ten years ago, was something that was a dream for all of us.

And now it's becoming the norm, you know, and selling out Wembley. No one batted an eyelid. It was kind of expected that that would happen. And England-Germany game is always something that fans want to see. And, you know, I remember in 2014 playing Germany at Wembley, and it was the biggest day of our lives. And so, you know, it's going to be a massive game, a massive occasion. I'm going to be there and the FA are honouring former England players.

So it's going to be a big, big event. But on the pitch, I think it's important that the England team perform and win the game because there is pressure now on Phil Neville, I think, to start turning around these performances. That's the voice of the former England player Eniola Aluko. And you also heard from Patricia Gregory. She is looking for women who've played football for England who could be at that match on November the 9th. So if you know anybody, contact Women's Hour via the website.

Now, we have mentioned in the past that teenage pregnancy rates have been falling in the UK that teenage pregnancy rates have been falling in the UK and they're now at their lowest level since records began. But nevertheless, we do have one of the highest teenage birth rates in Western Europe. Pregnant Teens is the name of a new BBC podcast. It's about three girls from Middlesbrough, Nicole, Megan and Robin. And that town does have one of the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in England and Wales. The girls in question are Megan and Robin

and Nicole and you'll hear first from Robin I just think there's a lot of negativity out there with like teen mums At the end of the day we are young, we are having kids young We can still have a career as well as having a child We're probably more mature when pregnancy does hit us Yeah, we are young, we are having kids young. We can still have a career as well as having a child.

We're probably more mature when pregnancy does hit us. I've matured a lot, even my mum said that. I used to go out every weekend now, like, I don't move from the house. Every penny I get goes on the baby now. So how do you think it's changed, you being pregnant? You think now, don't you? Like, when your child's here, you're not going to be able to just get up, get your stuff and go out. The child needs to depend on you.

You make a routine. I know it sounds funny. I'm in the bath and I've got my charmers on by seven, like watching the soaps, because I just think when the baby's here, I'm going to have the baby in a routine, like in bed for seven, so I make sure I'm in bed for seven and a half.

You said that being pregnant has changed you as well Robin didn't you like how it's made you mature a bit yeah I was really bad I was going out every weekend getting pissed I'd come home

get my stuff it'd be like half twelve my mum would say like what are you doing? You need to go to bed, you're drunk. We'll speak about this in the morning, you're not going out. And then I'd just say, well, I am going out. Give me some money.

I'm going, there's a party. Whose party? Anyone's. So this is when you were 15, you were coming in on a weekend, it was midnight, and you were saying to your your mum I want some money, I want to go to a party. Oh yeah and then I met my boyfriend that carried on

and then he said he can't be with someone like that, he's like he can't be with a child so that settled me down and then the babies just totally changed me. People say you're a skit or you're a slag

because you're 16 and pregnant, but I don't get why. Why? There's 30-year-old women out there who do drugs and stuff like that and they're not getting put all over social media saying that they shouldn't have their babies. So, like, I don't get why it should be different for teenagers. There's a lot of things in place for teenagers so they can do what they want. I'm going to be going to full-time college.

My baby's going to be in nursery and some people are saying like well you're not going to be able to see your baby but I will because I'm living at home. I'm going to full-time college and my baby will be in nursery. It's not as if she's going to be sat in the house all day. She's going to actually be doing something. And then I can spend the time, and any normal mother would spend the time with the baby. Have you been, like, called out on social media? Have you had some, like, bullying on social media for being pregnant?

There was one lass who messaged me. She just said, it's wrong. It's wrong being pregnant at your age. I said, well, no-one plans it. I don't think any 15-year-old lass plans to get pregnant. But if it happens, like, I don't believe in abortions, so if it happens, you deal with it. It shouldn't make a difference about your age.

If you can take care of that baby, then you should keep that baby. Megan, how do you think being pregnant's changed you? Well, I wasn't, like, really bad at all before I found out I was pregnant, but it's changed me in a way. I sit down with my partner, we write stuff out what we need we like he's finding jobs he's got loads of interviews which I find really really beneficial he's trying his hardest to support both me and the child we know that we have to grow up we are young but it's not the end of the world and no matter how old you are nobody's really ready to be a mother

like yeah people can plan it people might not plan it but you learn as your baby grows with you it's like no wrong way of raising your child if you agree with one thing then that's your opinion and with the judgmental people out there then so be it they're entitled to their own opinion it doesn't really bother me anymore yeah i'll go to college and I can hear a few whispers oh my god look she's pregnant things like that and like yes I am but I don't regret making him because yeah it was a shock I wasn't planning it but I do not regret this very Very young voices, but also some really mature words there from Megan and from Robin and Nicole. And the presenter is Philippa Goymer.

The podcast is called Pregnant Teens. You can find it on BBC Sounds. Kim Jamie is Assistant Professor in Sociology at the University of Durham. And Chyna Powell-Henry is with me. She is a young mother. Her son is one. Chyna, welcome to the programme. You were listening to that with me. What did you think of it?

I thought the same thing as them. I had the same view. A lot of people view teenage pregnancy and young parents as a negative thing. And I'm not saying it's amazing to be a young parent, but I don't think it should be viewed so negatively as well because it does happen a lot. And young parents shouldn't be made to feel as if they're you know isolated or iced out of society because they've made a mistake everybody makes mistakes and teenage pregnancy can happen to anybody

and we're all just normal people you know that's how I think. Have you ever faced judgment from anybody? Yeah I've faced judgment a lot from my own family members, I would say, and also from people just on public transport. People on public transport giving you dirty looks, or I would say me giving me dirty looks. Or, you know, if they see a middle aged person that's pregnant, they're likely to get up and give their seat. Whereas for me, they just look at me like you know why are you why are you standing on the bus pregnant like and I also look so young so they don't even they just assume that I'm like this 15 year old having a baby you know that's going to be on benefits for the rest of my life and they don't realize that young parents actually have aspirations and dreams and goals and want

to do more for themselves and their child. Kim, are you surprised, I'm sure you're not, that people like Chyna are still subjected to that kind of judgment? Well, morning, Jane. Thank you so much for having me on. Sadly, no, I'm not really surprised at all. I mean, what we saw in the research that we did is that these judgments are so persistent and they are influencing all sorts of things about the ways that that these young women are living their lives the places that they're choosing to go and not to go the conversations that they're actively avoiding and I think we have some real

hangovers of really problematic stereotypes well that's what I was going to ask you where does this stuff come from? Oh, I think it's varied. It's hugely mixed. A lot of it is really comes from this idea of how life should be lived so that young people should be going through particular trajectories and doing things in particular order. So going to school, then university, then a good job, marriage, then kids. And of course, when young women kind of disrupt that by having children young, it kind of sends people into a little bit of a panic, really, because I think it's questioning actually the legitimacy of that standard trajectory through life. But also, I think actually it also goes deeper.

And I think it touches on some deeply rooted kind of prejudices around poverty and inequality, social isolation, and also, too, I mean, young women's sexuality, to be honest. And I think, you know, young mums, they're kind of saying, look, I'm a sexually active young woman. And I think as a society, that's quite an uncomfortable thing to be faced with. We need to point out, of course, they don't get pregnant on their own.

Absolutely, yes. There's somebody else involved. Earlier in the programme, we talked to Ashlyn, the film director, who herself had been a teenage mother. There's a great example of someone who'd harnessed that, has had her son and has moved on. And Chyna, you have also said you're aspirational, you're at university. Yeah, I'm at university studying sociology. I'm in my first year and my son goes to nursery while I go to university.

All my family and his dad's family take care of childcare. And I also work. I have a part time job. So it's not I don't just sit at home and want to sit at home for the rest of my life. I want to achieve something with my life like every other person. Yeah, of course. And it used to be said, Kim, um that i mean it's a terrible cliche but i'll wheel it out this business of getting a council house um but that's still out there though isn't it it really is um it annoys me personally actually um because i think the idea that young women are actively choosing to have a child with all the responsibility that that entails,

the financial implications, the interruptions to education, the effect that it has on women's bodies, and the idea that a 15-year-old would plan to do that to get a flat is laughable. Plus it's laughable, to be honest, that in today's society a young woman would actually have much of a chance of getting a council flat. I mean, you know, we know what's happened to council housing. I mean, it's just not particularly likely. And yet this stereotype really sticks.

Yeah. Well, Chyna, I know you continue to live with your mum, don't you? And she's been supportive. Yeah, I live with my mum and she supports me a lot um she drives me and my son to his nursery every morning that i have university um the two mornings that he goes to nursery she drives us there she helps pick me up you know um and i don't think having a child to get a council house is even a thing because of the pressure on social housing at the moment that that isn't even possible I don't think no um but we do need to say though I suppose from from the other perspective

it is a big responsibility when I was your age at China I was just having a laugh frankly and I wasn't capable of doing anything else do you have moments of just thinking I wish I could be free of responsibility um I think when you decide to keep your child and have a child because obviously we Do you have moments of just thinking, I wish I could be free of responsibility? I think when you decide to keep your child and have a child, because obviously we all know that abortion is legal in this country. I think you already know that you're signing up for responsibility. Every mother, I think, whether you're young or old, you want a moment of freedom. But I don't want to be away from my son. I miss my son when I'm at work, when I'm at university.

Whatever I'm doing, I miss my son and I spend a lot of time with him. So I don't feel like I ever want to be free from responsibility but I think everybody deserves a break at times. That is the voice of Chyna Powell-Henry who is the mum of a young son and you also heard from Dr Kim Jamie, Assistant Professor in Sociology at the University of a young son and you also heard from Dr Kim Jamie, Assistant Professor in Sociology at the University of Durham. To your emails then, I was a young unmarried mother back in the early 70s and it was really difficult. My parents disowned me and I was sent to a mother and baby home run by nuns where my daughter was born. Many of the other girls had their babies adopted

and I really remember them crying as they gave them their last feeds. I eventually married my baby's father, but it ended in divorce because we were just too young. I worked all hours to survive without any help. I do think it's easier now because it's more acceptable. We are more tolerant. Thank goodness, says Fran. Thank you for that, Fran. God, I'm sorry you had such a tough time.

That is such a potent image, isn't it? The idea of, I just can't think of anything, giving your baby their last feed, knowing that they were going to be adopted. That is horrific. From Anna, I was first a teenage mother at 17 in 1959. Sorry, this is from Jean. Get this right.

This is from Jean. I was first a teenage mother at 17 in 1959. I had three children by the time I was 19. At 25, when my youngest started school, I started teacher training and went on to have a long and successful teaching career and I am now a great-grandmother, says Jean. Congratulations. From Anna, my mum was 16 when she had my sister, and 19 when she had me and then my brother four years later.

It was a difficult time for her, for me and my siblings, but we've always had a really strong, positive relationship with our mother. And although I wish for her that she'd had more of her teenage years it definitely hasn't been negative from our perspective as her children. Now on to the subject of women's football my daughter's under 12 team finalists for the last two years have now had a couple of female refs at games and even young female trainee refs I think they're really positive role models, says that listener. Liz and another listener, thanks for helping raise the profile of girls and women's

football. I set up football in Liverpool for girls in 1986 and I was amazingly well supported. I was a qualified coach, then a referee. When I had my own children, all boys actually, I began coaching again and took my eldest son's team through from under eight to under 16. I took my level one and part level two coaching award again. I managed and coached and didn't come up against another female manager in all that time. I have now, with my local junior football team, Clitheroe Wolves, helped set up an all-age women's football in August of last year and we play our first friendly next week. Well, I hope that goes well.

I hope you win. It's still tough out there, says this listener, but there is a lot of support growing again. It sounds like you really have done a tremendous amount of work in this area. Well, I really do congratulate you on that and good luck, as I say, in your first women's fixture for your new team next week or with your new team.

Political abuse. This is interesting. I stood for the Lib Dems in my very conservative village in a local election 28 years ago. Nobody from Labour stood. I got hate mail in my letterbox and then they broke the windscreen wipers off my nanny's car. This has been happening for years. It certainly put me off going any further in local politics. And quite a few people are making this point. I'm listening to your discussion on the abuse of MPs and while I am appalled at the abuse they're being subjected to. I am once again upset this is being discussed, but the fact that NHS workers are daily subjected to equal verbal abuse and also frequent physical abuse doesn't seem to warrant equal coverage or outrage.

Do those of us who work in the NHS not deserve the same regard as politicians? Yeah, I understand why you've made that point, Lorraine. I mean, of course, people who work in the NHS deserve respect. What you're also right in saying is that there's a kind of coarsening in the, what is it, the expression people use, the public discourse these days. And I notice actually, when you go to places like your post office to get a parcel, the sorting office, there are signs up there as well saying, please respect our staff. And actually, I always think to myself, why in this situation,

as I queue for a parcel, would I ever be abusive? Clearly, the sign is there because people have been abusive to somebody in a postal sorting office. I don't know what gets into the head of these people. I really don't. I agree with you. There's too much abuse everywhere. But we know, because of what happened to Jo Cox, that the threat to female politicians, unfortunately, is clearly a real one. Another email.

Read this morning's item on women leaving Parliament. I was struck watching PMQs yesterday by the different reception given to MPs asking questions. When Jess Phillips asked her question about reduced teaching time in primary schools, the Speaker had to call the House to order because of the raucous reception coming from the Tory benches. If MPs themselves behave like this in the course of debate, isn't this a green light to those likely to abuse online? Male MPs do get a more sympathetic hearing. Why would women put themselves up to work in that environment? Perhaps the camera should pan out and show us exactly which MPs are behaving like this

when women speak. Yep, good point. Maybe we should see exactly who is behaving in what is clearly a moronic fashion. Right, that's it for today. If you can, make sure you're with us tomorrow for either the live programme or this, the podcast. We are tomorrow at Tobacco Dock in East London as part of the BBC Music Event, BBC Introducing. And this is a programme designed for anyone

who would like a career in music. Here's a question. A man escapes from one of the world's most brutal dictatorships. He's risked everything to do it. But once he's free, he digs a hole and he tunnels straight back in again. Why? I'm Helena Merriman, and over the past six months I've been investigating an extraordinary escape story Why? I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.