Woman's Hour - How do you feel about sending the kids back to school?

Episode Date: May 5, 2020

Many parents have been longing for the the day the kids can go back to school following the lockdown. How are you feeling about sending your children back into the classroom? Over the last week, a number of old and offensive posts on Twitter have resurfaced. Many of them were written by influencers, artists and presenters. The majority of them contain abusive language towards dark skinned black women. Now the "court of public opinion" is calling for these individuals to be "cancelled". What's behind highlighting something some one said years ago? And what impact is it having on young black women online? .Despite having no experience of crofting or of island life, Tamsin Calidas moves with her husband from London to a remote island in the Scottish Hebrides. It’s idyllic, for a while but as the months wear on, Tamsin finds herself in ever-increasing isolation. She talks to Jane about beginning her journey back from the brink. Plus a report out today from the Child Poverty Action Group and the Church of England suggests that tens of thousands of families newly claiming Universal Credit because of the pandemic and shutdown will be affected by the benefit’s two child limit. It means that for claimants with three or more children only those born before 6 April 2017 will be counted in the benefit payment. We hear why they want the cap to be lifted.Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest Tobí Rachel Akingbadé Guest Bella Frimpong Guest Tamsin Calidas Guest Dr Emma Kell Guest Jonathan Ball Guest, Louise McGeehan.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and this is the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday the 5th of May 2020. Hello, good morning, welcome to the programme. We're live at BBC Woman's Hour. If you have a question or a point of view you want to put across this morning, particularly on the subject of going back to school, which is our first topic today. Also later on, there probably hasn't ever been a better time to start fantasising about doing something

dramatic. And our guest, Tamzin Khalidas, did something very dramatic. She moved from West London to a very remote Scottish island. What happened after that? Tamzin is live from that island on Woman's Hour this morning. First, we do know that the Prime Minister is scheduled to make a speech on Sunday about how the lockdown will be eased. So let's talk today about going back to school. What do you think about it? Are social distancing measures remotely feasible within schools, particularly perhaps within primary schools?

What about children with special needs? How are parents feeling? What about school cleaners and dinner ladies and classroom assistants? The lot. Dr Emma Kell trains teachers and also works for a pupil referral unit and Professor Jonathan Ball is a virologist at the University of

Nottingham. Good morning to you both. We've had a huge response from the audience on this, perhaps entirely predictably. Miss Marble said on Twitter, I'm a primary school teacher. I think a lot of teachers are anxious about returning. How is social distancing possible in a school? Toby said school is about much more than education. That's true, of course. Another tweeter made in Brighton, not just teachers. What about teaching assistants and individual special needs assistants who wipe noses, who are expected to sit next to children to support learning and behaviour? Plus lunchtime supervisors, office teams and our cleaners.

Sarah asks, how can an 11 year old remember not to hug her friends who she hasn't been able to see in two months. There's so much anxiety, so many questions out there. Emma Kell, what are you and the people you talk to about teaching most concerned about? Well, the first thing to mention is that actually that anxiety seems to be completely overwhelming. So I put out a question to teachers last night and I've had almost 400 responses. And one of them almost just reads like a plea. It says, please help us say we're scared, and it's too dangerous. And that a few weeks of misschooling is no big deal in the scheme of things. So people are genuinely terrified. They're terrified because the practicality of social distancing and the advice being given to businesses simply isn't practical in a school

context. So things like, yeah, the distancing, social distancing, if you've worked with teenage boys, you know, they can't keep their hands off each other. And one of the pieces of advice to businesses is to limit contact to 15 minutes. How we're supposed to do that in a school context, we just don't know so levels of anxiety are very high but you understand the focus on education because there's something about it it's it's normality isn't it for kids to be going to school that early morning scramble the return at half past four it's part of the rhythm of our life it whiffs of normality and we all want that back we really do yeah we really do and i don't know a single teacher who isn't desperate to get back into the classroom and see their students.

It's actually really hard work, despite some of the hype recently. It's really hard work setting work remotely and actually trying to keep an eye on students and worrying for our most vulnerable. And yes, I'm desperate to get my kids back to routine. But as people keep saying, we're just not reassured that it's safe at the moment. Professor Jonathan Ball, virologist, over to you. How safe is it at the moment? Should we even be contemplating returning to school? Unfortunately, we're still learning about the virus

and we don't fully understand the role that children play in the transmission of the virus. There are some reports, some stories which give you reassurance. I think one in particular is a UK school child who was infected whilst he was visiting the French Alps. And they contact traced about, I think it was just over 70 people who had been in contact and there was no evidence that he transmitted virus. Also didn't transmit virus to siblings. So, you know, that shows that in that particular case, and it's a single case, that the children or the child infected didn't easily pass on the virus. And in fact, if you look through various reports reports it's very difficult to get a good idea that children are particular drivers of the outbreak but if you think about other diseases

things like influenza we know that schools and children are incredibly efficient incubators for the spread of those viruses not only in the school but outwards towards the community and I think that's the dilemma that we're facing. And unfortunately, there is no clarity. I'm glad you've been so honest because we are confused. We are still ignorant. And that makes decision-making all the more difficult, Jonathan. It makes it incredibly difficult.

And I think what we have to do as society, and certainly the government is to you know appreciate individuals own drivers as to why they may or may not want their children in school so for example something we don't really consider is there maybe somebody incredibly vulnerable at home who could suffer very serious COVID disease or indeed that the child themselves might have some kind of underlying condition that makes a parent worry very much about sending a child into school. And I think if we do return to school, there has to be some acknowledgement and some acceptance that some children, for very solid reasons, may not wish to return to school. And we have to make

sure that they're not neglected. Right. A listener's just asking about a child with asthma, would they fit into that category? Well most children even with asthma do tend to suffer a very mild disease but particularly things like severe immune suppression is obviously something that people are particularly worried about and I think you know the child's long-term health is probably more important to somebody than maybe three or four weeks' worth of schooling. But equally, other people may feel that their children are being deprived of those interactions and that education

and do wish to go to return. And I think that's the dilemma we're facing. Yeah, I mean, it does sound, Jonathan, I'm not putting words into your mouth, that the truth is you cannot, in all honesty, offer huge reassurance to Emma and the people who've told her how worried they are. No, what we know is that at the moment there's little evidence that children are particular drivers of the outbreak. It does seem to be adult transmission, but we can't discount the role of children because we don't have enough studies and and therefore there's always the the potential risk and i think that the practicalities

of social distance and in school it's doable if you think about how a school is set up it's it's very much about discipline and children probably would would heed the rules maybe more than than some adults at work but it's still a, and therefore we need also to make sure that the numbers out in the community are a lot lower than they are at the moment. So if you were advising the government ahead of Sunday's expected announcement, what would you say on schools? Personally, I think it's a little too early to expect them to return. I think also with with the half term coming

up um it can't be more than what a couple of weeks away be the end of may yeah yeah so so you know i think in all reality it would be a rather silly thing to do to allow children back for maybe a week or two um and and potentially allow the spread of virus to then have them back on holiday for a week to then return so i think it's likely after half term if that's a reality. What about individual school years, Emma? I'm thinking, I feel very sorry for kids in year six and kids in year 13 whose school lives have just come to a halt without any real resolution. But then there's the children taking important exams next year. Who do you prioritise? Well, this is the huge ethical dilemma, isn't it?

That if we're going to bring some students in, who decides who and where does that decision come from? Who takes responsibility for that decision? You know, I mean, I'd be inclined to prioritise our most vulnerable students, the ones who, you know, let's face it, at worst, most of us are a bit bored and a bit restless and putting on a bit of weight. But actually, there are children out there who are at home in the most appalling situations. So that question over who actually goes back first, yes, logic would seem to suggest that it should be the year 10s and the year 5s who are actually going to be taking those big exams next year. But that decision is huge. And I don't know who ultimately takes responsibility for that. I think I need to make this point, actually. And also, we would include year 12 students will be taking their A-levels next year. But a listener

here says, this is really for Jonathan, please remember that schools are open now, and teachers are in school, and there's no real thought to protection. And in some areas, younger siblings in nappies are also there. We're doing a massive experiment on teachers, and it would be good to acknowledge this. Well, what do we know, Jonathan, about what is happening within the schools that are open for the children of key workers?

Well, you know, the actual levels of infection control and how the schools deal with the children in their charge will be primarily a decision made by the teaching body and the governing body. And one would hope that they will take into account the advice around limiting the spread of coronavirus, which is the normal social distancing and hygiene measures that we've been hearing so much about. And that's all you can do if you've got people in your charge. And hopefully anybody who's feeling unwell won't be turning up to school, but there has to be a lot of trust here.

But I'm afraid the reality is that social distancing for children just isn't a reality. So the colleagues I know who are in work with younger children, they're sucking on biscuits and passing them to one another. I had a colleague the other day who said to me that they had their face licked. You know, I mean, with the best will in the world, trying to convey social distancing to a group of five-year-olds is nigh on impossible. Pigwich on Twitter says, children would heed the rules. That was a quote she'd heard. Nope, it's not about discipline. Many of our special school pupils will not be able to comprehend the rules in order to comply with

social distancing. That's another, it's a really important issue this, Emma, because some of these children with special needs will be desperate to get back to school. Their parents will also be very keen for them to get the sort of help they need. But what do you do? Well, I mean, that's the big question. And I'm afraid the answer is we just don't know. I mean, another teacher got in touch and said every day, this is in a special school, but every day there's some kind of emergency,

you know, a nosebleed or a cut finger, which means that they need close personal contact. So I think that's what's causing the anxiety, is the reality is that a lot of young people simply won't be able to process these very, very strict social distancing guidelines. What about the amount of work provided for the pupils who are at home?

What are people telling you about what's required both of the teachers and whether pupils and their parents are satisfied with what they're getting, Emma?? Well I've just had my daughter come in and ask me and demand an explanation of ratio. There's quite a big disparity so some schools are providing all-day video lessons. Now frankly as a parent that would completely do my head in because apart from anything else you know we've got limited bandwidth in the house. But the vast majority of parents I know are very happy with what schools are providing.

And it seems quite reasonable, quite balanced. Teachers are showing emotional intelligence and reassuring parents that actually they don't have to be the teacher at home. And they need to give a balance of creativity, a bit of English, a bit of maths and a bit of outdoor space. I'm just going to interrupt just to say to anyone listening who's got a view on that, if you are really happy with what your school is providing, let us know. If you're not so happy, also let us know. You can either email the programme or contact us on Twitter at BBC Women's Hour. Carry on, Emma, sorry.

Yes, so the vast majority are happy. And the teachers I know are working extremely hard from home. So they're spending their days contacting students by phone or using video calls or actually running online lessons. And then they're spending their evenings doing their planning and their marking. So actually, if anything, their workload is either the same or higher than it was before.

And of course, we need to remember teachers have got lives. They've got children. They've got relatives they're concerned about. It's not as if they're not in the mix as well. They most certainly are Yeah, absolutely and yeah, I mean on one level I'm desperate for my kids to get back to school

because my own productivity has gone down to about 10% of what it was before so yes, teachers are doing all of this with their own children in the background or elderly relatives they're looking after or indeed, you know, teachers have been bereaved. So it's remembering that teachers are human beings too. It's really important.

We also need to say, I think, Jonathan, that testing is much discussed, but the swab test is pretty invasive and pretty unpleasant, isn't it? Yeah, it's not the most comfortable thing that you can do, and I'd imagine even worse for for children but of course it's the one of the only weapons we have at the moment against the virus is to identify where it is and to then try and limit its onward spread and I think I think one of the wider discussion points here as well is in terms of the the school and the closure of the school is is which group are you trying to protect?

Now, obviously, most people probably turn around to me and say, well, both teachers and pupils. The reality is that the evidence so far is that the vast, and I mean the vast majority of children who get COVID-19 will have an incredibly mild disease. And that's why we think it may be the case that they don't pass the virus on very easily. Whereas teachers going into those schools who are potentially infected,

you know, on the evidence so far, pose the bigger transmission risk. And I think that's where, for example, lots of testing needs to be taking place. It is out in the community so that we can limit how much ultimately would be in the schools. Right, got you. So if you could prioritise anything, it would be that, Jonathan? It would definitely be, you know, we have to prioritise testing when we come out of lockdown, whether or not that's in the context of schools or whether that's in context of us just going back to work and trying to lead a normal life as much as possible. If we can't actively identify and track where the virus is, it will very quickly ramp up to the levels that we saw just before

lockdown. And we'll go into another lockdown and we'll have a constant flurry or cycle of out of lockdown in lockdown. Thank you both very much. Really enjoyed talking to you both. So many different points of view coming in. I just want to mention this one from Fraser who says, why are we so focused on returning to an arbitrary school calendar this year? Why not move everything around to suit a safe return to school and just turn the annual dial around a couple of months and have people continue and finish their academic year later. Well, it's an idea, Fraser. I think a lot of people will probably be supporting you. And from somebody else on Twitter who calls themselves Northern Head Teacher, I was spat at by a three-year-old last week. She wasn't being naughty. She just got excited about the story I was reading.

And I guess that just shows you that there's a whole range of different experiences out there. And it's tough, to put it mildly, to make the right decision at this time. And I think most of us are just glad we're not in a position to have to make it. But thanks to everybody who took part. And please keep your thoughts coming, particularly on Twitter at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, Tamsin Khalidas joins us now from her remote Scottish island, the place where she now lives. Well, you tell me, Tamsin, you're living there happily now, aren't you? Absolutely, yes, and very established.

It's been just over 16 years now, and that's been quite a journey, but it's very much home. Right. Now, for reasons that are clear, are made clear in your book, I Am an Island, you're not naming the island where you now have made your home, but it is in the Scottish Hebrides. That's right, isn't it? That's right. And the idea behind that is to protect friends and community and really all of our privacy. You know, it's a very close community and we all cohabit here and um i suppose it's like um any walk of life there are times of joy and also times of struggle and that's something that you have to resolve and and find a way through which is really um you know finding the way through is really what the book's about

um not just as an individual um but also as a woman um alone um after my marriage broke down and in my case without children trying to forge my own path in a in in a traditional society um which which i think i've now done so um yeah but the the book explores um what was involved with that and really quite quite the hardships of sure that were experienced you know sometimes experienced. Sometimes 21st century technology sort of lets you down, but in the wrong way. I'm not really phrasing this very clearly, but you sound so clear. You could be next door, but you really are on an island in the outer Scottish Hebrides. We need to make that clear. You're just almost too clear and it's too crystal clear to be believed.

But trust me, trust everybody, you are. I'm pretty much on the roof at the moment in order to get the signal. So I'm in one single spot where it's possible. All right, well, I'm really glad that you are. Now, you better just tell us what your life was like before you moved and why you did it. Yeah, sure. So we were in London. I'd had, I guess, quite a busy life working both in publishing and advertising in the BBC.

And I actually crossed roles. I started off in photography and I then moved into all sorts of other areas and territories that then had a big car smash. And that meant that I had to really reset my path. It took a little while to recover from that. And I actually gave up that work for a while and started to work alongside trauma victims and also assisting with midwifery services. And then I met my then-to-be husband, Rab, and we moved from where I had been to a much smaller, low-key property up the road. And unfortunately, we had a whole series of events there where the community changed very, very fast. We went there to be part of a sort of

family more family-based community and it ended up being very very feral and we just wanted to get out and have a safe place to raise a family so what made you think that crofting would be for you did you have any links to scotland at all yeah well in childhood i, I mean, my ex was Scottish and in my childhood, I'd had very many happy experiences up in Scotland. So it was kind of somewhere where I really felt that I was being pulled back to and to to really sort of put our own hard work into building and making a place our own in which then to hopefully gift our own children and then to grow organically with it. And very much to be part of a community and to have that sort of tight knit support around, which was something we worked very hard at when we first arrived, integrating and building friendships. Yeah, I think it's fair to say you were not exactly welcome with open arms, to put it mildly. No, not from everybody. There's always going to be a minority in any community that has resistances. But we did build friendships when we first arrived. And I think anyone that's moved

into a small community world over, you know, you have to be sensitive to the sort of dynamics at play and to actually watch and observe and to see how things are done to try and live quite quietly. And I think in a sense, we live too quietly because we kind of almost silenced our own voices. The interesting thing for listeners to this programme is the way that you were treated as a lone woman crofting when your husband left. I don't, I obviously read the book with real interest. I knew nothing about this. You were treated with disdain, suspicion and actually, well, things were even worse than that. Yeah, well, it was a very difficult scenario because we'd been so much, I suppose, part of the community. And when you're in any traditional society, there's kind of more of a sort of

traditional split of roles. So because we were farming and crofting, my interface was my partner. And there was a very fraught series of events that led us to our relationship building down. And it was very important to both of us to keep that trust and to keep that confidence so that if there was ever a chance of reparation, we wouldn't have abused our own um our own walls if you like and so um after i left people sorry after after rab left um people didn't actually know the um detail of what had been going on and i'd urge people to read the book for that um but at that time i had two broken hands i wasn't able to work and there was crippling and really pressing debt. The house that we'd been working on wasn't finished. The regulatory paperwork to sell wasn't in place. And also the whole legal framework around a separation meant that everything went into our own kind of trapped. I wasn't able to leave and I was really struggling to keep afloat. And I think that was probably made all the more difficult by not having my own family close by, not having children of my own and those traditional frameworks and supports that would often help to get you through those times. And possibly there were some, there were some that, you know, would have liked to have

had that croft back. Well, yes, to defend them. I suppose it is debatable, just, well, your entitlement to working this land. It isn't entirely clear, is it? And there is obviously a traditional way of life there that you were usurping. Well, I suppose so. But at the same time, we were on the wave of, we were probably one of the first of a fresh wave of people coming in. And I actually sort of throw that back and say, well, ask the question. Surely it's the people that are selling that have the power there. We just answered, you know, there was an application to make an application on a house.

There were many others, no doubt, that were also considered. And surely it's the vendor and not the purchaser that makes the decision. When you said that, what was the reaction? I think people accepted that and, you know, in some quarters and clearly they're going to be other areas where try and establish bonds because it's that rather than fear that creates those walls between. And that's what really the last few years have been all about. I think it's important that we make clear just how physically tough your life was and is i'm sure um as you as you croft and it's it's physical labor and it's at one point you had two broken hands at the same time which is just incredible um yeah there was very little money um not much heating. And you formed one particular notable friendship with another woman,

which came to a tragic end when she was killed in an accident. I mean, there's an awful lot of abject misery here, but you kept going. And there was beauty within it. Yeah. You know, so that friendship, which was more than just any normal friendship, it was, she was like a just any normal friendship. She was like a mother figure to me. It felt very sort of much like a kinship.

And actually when I was supporting her, when her own husband was dying, he asked me to make a promise to him because we were all so close. They were actually a Scottish family originally. And he asked me to make a promise to him just before he died to look after his wife. And I did that. And that's really on the basis of that friendship that, yeah, we discovered together, I suppose, a different way to approach the soil and the land, you know, working with plants in a more perhaps organic way and also with the animals as well. And that really set a path for me. It just kind of opened my eyes to a completely different way of connecting with the land and the fabric of my home around me. So you are, yes, you're now content. Well, it's all relative at the moment,

but you are relatively content living there. And your companion is your border collie Maud, who I gather hasn't been too well lately. No. So Maud, I trained from a pup and I worked the sheep with her. And I've done that over the last 16 years. But she's actually only 12, but a very, very fit young dog in herself. But yeah, she's been desperately ill the last few days. I've had very little sleep actually since Thursday with a series of strokes. So it's a little bit touch and go just now.

But she pulled a corner last night and I'm hopeful. She's a very strong spirited animal and we're very, very close. So I'm just hoping against all odds that she pulls through. Well, I really hope she does, Tamsin. And thank you very much for talking to us. We appreciate it. The book is called I Am an Island, and it's about a really extreme form of life change

and some beautiful descriptions of life on this remote Scottish island. It's in the Hebrides. Honestly, that's all I know about it. And the population is just over 100. And it's beautiful. Thebrides. Honestly, that's all I know about it. And the population is just over 100. And it's beautiful. The book is really, really enjoyable. So seek it out. It's called I Am an Island.

Now, on Friday's edition of the programme, we talked about why babies laugh, what makes babies laugh. And so a lot of people just said, oh, please, let's just play more laughing babies if you possibly can squeeze one in. So thank you to everybody who's told us about the Laughing Baby in their life. And today the star attraction is Elizabeth. Elizabeth is six months old and here she is reacting to a plastic bag being scrunched up.

Brilliant. Thank you very much, Elizabeth. May plastic bags being scrunched up continue to give you pleasure for many, many years to come. Now, nearly two million people have applied for universal credit since the lockdown, and many will never have done so before, of course. Some will be affected by the benefits to child limit. Now, in simple terms, that means there's no money apart, we should say, from child benefit for a third child in a family born after the 6th of April 2017. Now, a report by the Child Poverty Action Group and the Church of England says the cap should be lifted. Louisa McGeehan is from the Child Poverty Action Group.

She's director of policy there. Louisa, good morning to you. Good morning. Now, this is a difficult time for so many people, and we know that far more people than normal have applied for this benefit. And as I've just said, a lot of them will be very new to the system and to the way it works. Yeah, I mean, it's been with us for three years now, and we've been tracking with the church of england and talking to people about their experiences and there's surprisingly little awareness really of the policy amongst even before the pandemic of people who are affected because most of them are working most of them are couples and at the point they go to say look we need a bit of help here from

our social security system, then they come up against this new policy targeting babies and toddlers to say that, you know, your third and subsequent child, I'm afraid there's no support for you in universal credit or tax credit. We better just remind people why the policy was put in place, what the thinking was. Well, I mean, the thinking, as it was expressed at the time, was to say that anyone getting help from Social Security should make the same choices about family size as anyone who wasn't getting that help. But it works on the basis that, of course, everyone can plan for the future. And one of the reasons why it's so relevant now

is, you know, nobody could know if somebody was going to get ill in the future or would lose their job or any change of circumstances and of course nobody could predict the pandemic and the scale of lockdown and people losing businesses they've built up over many years where they've been financially secure whenever they've made their choices about their family size and suddenly now you, the government has said, we'll do what we know, we will do everything we need to do to support you. But it won't lift this policy that's actually going to restrict the help that a lot of those families get.

I've got a statement from the Department of Work and Pensions. The two-child policy ensures fairness by asking families getting benefits, as you say, to make the same financial choices as people who support themselves solely through work. And there are exemptions and safeguards in place. So the exemptions and safeguards in place, what about those, Louisa? Well, they're very limited, really, in very particular circumstances. So if your third child is part of a multiple birth, you can have an exception. If you're looking after a child in the family as part of a kinship care arrangement where otherwise they'd be in care, you can have an exemption. And then there's another exemption, which is

known as the rape clause, which basically covers if your child was conceived non-consensually, either through rape or as part of a coercive relationship, then in certain circumstances, and as long as you're not living with that child's biological father, you can, through a third party, disclose that and ask for an exemption. Right. I mean, to put it mildly, that causes extreme discomfort. Even just hearing that is pretty excruciating. Yeah. I mean, I'm expressing it as neutrally as possibly I can. But of course, there are all sorts of issues around survivors of domestic abuse and being able to talk about these things or disclose such a personal situation purely in order that your child would be eligible for support from the government. It's a horrendous situation. And we're very sure that something is going horribly wrong. So in the last sort of government official statistics,

there were 156 households affected, but only 510 exceptions for the non-consensual situation. So something is clearly going wrong in either how it's operating or whether or not women feel confident using it. We know that in our recent survey of almost 1,000 families, one woman had tried to do this through a GP and this had been refused by DWP. So it's a very difficult set of limited exemptions. Yeah. And as you said at the beginning, as we both said, this is now a world into which many people have been plunged with no previous experience.

It doesn't look as though the government will lift the cap had no intention to make any changes at all to Social Security other than the increase that, of course, was very welcome that they made to the standard adult allowance. Yes, and we should make clear that has indeed happened. Yes, it has. previous Secretary of State, Amber Rudd, who decided that it would be illogical and completely unjust to apply this policy to, initially, the plan was all families where a third and subsequent children, even if they were born before the policy came in. So, you know, we're very grateful there's been this degree of movement on it. But at the moment, when if you look at, you know, 1.8 million people needing to come onto universal credit over the first six weeks of the pandemic that's a failure anyway in terms of the degree of support

available through either the uh the job protection scheme or the self-employed income support scheme but of all those people are you know looking for help in good faith because they've been stopped working or their businesses have failed as a result of the close down. So they've got a reasonable expectation, I think, that the government will give them support for their families, such as it is, because they couldn't have predicted the situation. Thank you very much for talking to us. The thoughts of Louisa McGeehan, who's from the Child Poverty Action Group.

And do let us know if you've applied for Universal Credit, how has it been? Has the money come through? Are you still waiting? At BBC Women's Hour or you can email the programme via the website. Now offensive Twitter posts have been resurfacing some of them written by influencers

musicians, presenters the majority contain abusive language about dark-skinned black women. Some say these people, the people whose tweets have resurfaced, should now be cancelled. Well, this is all part of so-called cancel culture. What does that mean? And what does this tell us about the way women of colour, in particularly dark-skinned black women, are still treated online, particularly on Twitter. Toby Akingbade is a freelance journalist. She has a podcast, too, called Yellow Cup.

And we also can talk to Bella Frimpong, who's a freelance writer and journalist. Bella, Toby, good morning. Welcome to the programme. Hiya, how are you? All right, thank you very much. Can you just tell us all, tell us first of all, Toby, how you came across these resurfacing tweets? When did you first know about them? I mean, when it comes to resurfacing tweets, it has been something that has happened before, maybe about once a year. But I think in this lockdown, I think a lot of people have had more time to, you know deep look for tweets so I think it really started in in this in this season it started about last week where you know influencers um rappers musicians people who

are quite popular online you know offensive tweets about particularly about dark-skinned women and began reservicing online so I mean when I saw them it did take me back to when those tweets were first tweeted I remember seeing some of those tweets back in 2012, and they were offensive, especially as I'm a dark-skinned woman myself. It wasn't really nice to see them again. No, I mean, I'm not going to read any of them out because, frankly, they are horrific. And, Bella, Toby's right, isn't it? This has quite an impact on people it's it's deeply upsetting yes absolutely and i think it's even more upsetting because being a dark-skinned woman offline is also not necessarily the easiest experience and therefore and online is often a form of escapism for a lot of us a lot

of people go to twitter for entertainment and so it's difficult to be faced with the exact same abuse that you face in real life on online spaces. So yes, these are things that we've been seeing from 2012. And unfortunately, I don't believe that they've necessarily ended. I think people are a little bit more careful about what they say, but I don't necessarily believe that these attitudes towards dark-skinned black women have necessarily changed. Some of the really offensive tweets come from other women of colour. We should also say

some also come from men, although they don't seem to get the criticism to quite the same extent. Can you explain that, Bella? Yes, I think that it's extremely disappointing. Sorry. I think that there was a lack of almost a nuance and empathy. I think we really failed dark-skinned black women on this one because we do have to realise that a lot of the influencers, women specifically, who were making these offensive statements were also seeing these statements about themselves back then. Of course, it's not to something that I engaged in back then. But it's also easy to see how seeing a certain narrative about yourself, you'd come to believe that and reiterate those same points. Yeah, it's well, it's classic. It's like bullying at school. I wasn't bullied. Did I do anything to stop other people being bullied? No was just glad i wasn't being bullied it's is it

a bit like that i think it's a bit it goes a bit deeper than that i think you with dark skinned black women sometimes we we internalize um the abuse that we see and then project that onto towards other people um so again uh back in the day i don't necessarily believe that I was active in stopping this but I knew it was wrong but I think the onus doesn't necessarily have to come from exclusively dark-skinned black women I think as a community everyone should have been vocal about the fact that this was not okay. And till this day, I think sometimes we do take a step back based on how much of a social following whoever is at fault does have. And I think in this case, we also saw that a lot of the men who had big social followings were almost shielded from the impact and dark skinned black women were not, unfortunately. Well, quite. Toby, just a brief word. If you could define cancel culture began online when people realized they could use resources online to seek justice for victims of high profile names who moved around for decades committing heinous crimes with no remorse or accountability.

But I think what has happened is a sub-genre has emerged where people may be using it to drag individuals who they maybe have more access to across the timeline. And now it appears as if it's been done for entertainment um you know cancel culture was about um what is the end goal should i ask you know should it be about forgiveness should it be about people you know asking um and reaching you know those levels of accountability so now i think you know what we have seen is that you know a lot of dark-skinned women have ironically tragically ironically become victims, even amongst all of them. Yeah, well, they've become victims yet again. Yeah, yet again.

Yeah. That is Toby Akinbade and she is a freelance journalist. She also has a podcast you might want to listen to. It's called Yellow Cop. We also heard in that conversation from Bella Fringpong who is a freelance writer. Now to your thoughts on going back to school which was a big topic of the day really. This is from Bill I drive a school bus with 50 seats if we have 2 metre distancing we can

only use window seats on alternate rows. A total of 12 kids will need 4 times the previous number of buses. It's just not possible he says. Tom on Twitter says, I'm a peripatetic music teacher. It's my job to visit at least 10 schools a week, mostly sharing a small room with a few students for 20-minute sessions.

Is it a good idea for me to return to work as soon as possible? I don't think so, he says. From another listener, never mind about nosebleeds and cut fingers, we need to be clear about the fact that most special schools are changing children often numerous times a day. This can involve at least two members of staff

and clearly requires close proximity. There needs to be a true awareness of the level of care provided by special schools. Thank you for that. I think that's a very important point to make up. Isabel says, I'm a secondary school teacher in a deprived area of inner London. We've got around a thousand pupils, classes up to 30. The school, due to its location, is one building and not by any means spacious. Social distancing would be impossible. Crowded corridors, classrooms and playgrounds, grazing shoulders with hundreds of individuals every day.

The prospect of returning to this scenario anytime soon is scary. While saying all this, our pupils are the most disadvantaged and they are the ones that need a return to education the most. And that's, Isabel's right, that's at the crux of all this, isn't it? It's so difficult to make this decision. Anonymous says, I'm a teacher and I know in my borough alone, two teaching assistants have died from COVID-19.

I've been teaching the children of key workers and it is impossible to distance them, even though sometimes there've only been six children in. Lucy says, I was in school last week with only 16 students and they still cannot stop the lolloping and the jumping around. I never knew I could repeat two metres so many times in an hour every single hour. Yeah, that's an insight as well, isn't it?

And I know what Lucy means about the lolloping and the jumping. We should also say, and in a way, this is a great thing, we have raised probably Britain's most tactile generation of children. They are physically affectionate with each other in a way that I think we've all encouraged and we delight in seeing. It didn't happen back in the 70s and the 80s when I was at school. But I guess that doesn't really, it's not great at the moment, is it? That sort of way of expressing friendship is rather unfortunate. Alison says, I'm a chair of a small rural primary. I've got one teacher across year five and six.

She's doing valiant work with remote teaching. But if year six is in school, how does year five get its remote teaching? Equally, we'll have a few parents who won't and can't send the child to school. They'll also need remote teaching. How will she teach all these three groups at once? Alison, I don't know, but it's a really good question. Tim says, I'm a secondary school teacher with 35 years experience and going back to school frightens the living daylights out of me. I say this because having been into school, looking after key workers and vulnerable students recently, six in total,

trying to keep them socially distant, not to use each other's equipment, not to touch us or be near us etc was impossible. We were using a room that would normally have 30 students in it. I cannot see how moving around school corridors, lunchtimes, practical work, sport, drama, assembly, all the normal things can happen, let alone standard lessons. Class sizes would have to reduce to no more than 10 for most subjects and classrooms. I'm at a loss now. How can we protect the teachers and support teams, let alone the children? We have had so many of these. Akua, I will not be sending my children to school considering they only have a few weeks left. The schools are doing a good job, I think, with the e-learning courses.

The economy will always revise, but the loss of lives will be irreversible. Linda, no one seems to be addressing the issue that we would be traumatising or could be traumatising children going back to school in the circumstances of social distancing. Back to school at the moment will be artificial and scary with worried and stressed out staff. Even as an adult before lockdown, I wasn't able to cope with seeing friends from a distance and having to remember not to touch this or that. It's going to be very hard to go through a controlled lockdown like school. I worry about children's future mental health. And Mary, I'm teaching at an international school in the Netherlands

and we'll be going back to school next week with mixed feelings. Many feel it's an experiment made in order to enable others to return to work. The irony is that because children will only attend two days a week, they'll have less schooling than they do now online. Mary, thank you for that and it would be interesting actually if you can contact us again

when you've gone back to school. Let us know how it's getting on in the Netherlands as education resumes there. Thank you to all. I could keep on going because we've had so much response from you today, particularly on that subject of going back to school. But keep your thoughts coming. You can chat to each other on Twitter at BBC Women's Hour. Thank you very much. Jenny's here tomorrow. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.