Woman's Hour - How Fat Feels, Rosamund Lupton, Sexual Violence in Conflict

Episode Date: January 10, 2020

Back in 2018 we had a series called How Fat Feels. It included 16 year old Phoebe who told us how she felt about her body and how her weight has affected her as a teenager. Today Phoebe joins Jane in the studio to listen back to that interview and reflect on how she is now.The Preventing Sexual Violence in Conflict Initiative was first championed by Lord Hague and Angelina Jolie in 2014. This week's review by the Independent Commission of Aid Impact says that it's been “valuable & worthwhile” but its fallen short. Baroness Arminka Helic, who was part of the Initiative from the start, joins Jane to discuss.Rosamund Lupton has brought out a new thrllier. It's called Three Hours and is about a school shooting in rural Somerset. As the minutes count down, the adults and children involved refuse to let evil win and look after each other instead. Rosamund Lupton explains how and why she chose to explore such a distressing story from all angles and perspectives.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning to you today. We've got the thriller writer Rosamund Lupton with us. Her new book is called Three Hours and it's about a siege at a school in Somerset. Rosamund, our guest today, also on the programme, How Fat Feels. Our guest this morning is 18-year-old

Phoebe. We last heard from her when she was 16. You'll hear that interview again. And then you'll hear Phoebe live. In fact, let's prove Phoebe's here. Good morning to you, Phoebe. Good morning, Jane. I don't like talking about people when they're sitting in front of me. So it's good to have you on the programme. Thank you. I know you're slightly different from the person we heard from when they were 16. So

we're going to hear more about your experience a little bit later in the programme. First, though, the British government's global initiative against sexual violence in war got a great deal of attention, partly, it cannot be denied, because of the presence of Angelina Jolie at an event in 2014. She supported that initiative alongside the then Foreign Secretary, William Hague. Fast forward then to 2020, and the government's own watchdog says the campaign didn't deliver and sexual violence in conflict continues with almost total impunity. Well, the Tory peer, Baroness Aminka Helic,

came to Britain from Bosnia in 1992 and you were William Hague's special advisor. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Thank you were William Hague's special advisor. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Good morning. Thank you very much. Now, I know that this report from the Independent Commission for Aid Impact has caused you a certain amount of distress, in fact, hasn't it? What would you say about it? Well, a little bit, I would say. First, I would say I actually welcome this report because this is too important an initiative to just be left to operate on autopilot.

And it needs to be open and it needs to be reviewed. And we need to have an honest and open assessment about how much and what has been done. It actually comes out as a result of an ad hoc committee, which I helped set up in House of Lords. That was my first thing I did when I became a peer in order to really enable an outside body to look into the progress or not. and made huge strides until 2014, didn't have the amount of political power and support that William Hague managed and that he put into it when he was a foreign secretary. There are any number of potential problems here or problems that are illustrated by the relative lack of success of this initiative.

One of the issues is just the short-termism. I think this is something that Isabel Hardman, for example, has written about in The Spectator. Foreign secretaries just don't stay in post very long. William Hague was followed by Hammond, Boris Johnson, now, of course, the Prime Minister, it was Philip Hammond before that, Jeremy Hunt, now Dominic Raab. That is the state of the affairs in our country, I'm afraid. And I hope that now that the Brexit seems to be going in the direction of being out of the way, we are going to see some more stability and more long-termism.

Because being a foreign secretary is not just like any other portfolio. You really need to know your counterparts. You really need to get the issues. You really need to get relationships. Can we assume that William Hague's successors did not share his interest in this area? I can tell you I have, I personally went to see every single new foreign secretary, apart from Dominic Raab.

He was very busy until recently we had election, etc. And I am hoping that he will have time to see me to impress it upon them how much was achieved because we had some 123 countries attend. We had a protocol for investigating and crimes of sexual violence that has now been translated in 11 languages and is actively used. It was set up by the experts and the survivors. After that, we also had a commitment from these countries that rape and sexual crimes are never going to be sort of not used, given amnesty in peace accords, etc. So much was achieved. I went to see every single one of them. And to every single one of them, I tried to explain that this is not a William Hague initiative. This is an initiative that we as a country ought to be proud of. And I was listened to whether that was acted upon. Right, but that hints at a suggestion of ego playing a part here that people don't want to necessarily be attached to somebody else's big idea.

Draw your own conclusions. Well, am I onto something? I don't know. I mean, I personally, if I was in a position that some of those colleagues were when I went to see them, I would genuinely take it because it's not costly. It is all about political will using the machinery of the government or using your foreign office or MOD or DFID to work together to actually think about this as an issue where you can make a difference. Because this really isn't about statements and summits and communities. It's not about ego either. This is extraordinarily important. There are some very vulnerable people who've been...

To be honest, right now, as we are speaking, Dr. McWiggy in DRC, he is treating... Dennis McWiggy, he is treating a woman who was raped. Right now, as we are speaking, somewhere in Syria, in Iraq, in DRC, in South Sudan, in Central African Republic, there are women, girls, as young as, you know, five-year-olds, eight-month-olds, they're examples of these cases. They're going through this.

They need support, justice, and actually they need acknowledgement from us, people who consider themselves to be living in democratic countries, who consider themselves to be strong and progressive we cannot know about this right so not do anything you're absolutely right to draw our attention to the very real victims of this truly horrific violence but it would appear from that government report its own independent watchdog i mean it's independent up to a point it is a government watchdog, that actually, some people may have been harmed by this initiative, which I know is the polar opposite of your intention. It says they were at risk of being harmed, and no one was going to be harmed because they came to the summit. It is the fact that you come and talk about something really

painful and personal, and you expect something to happen after that. And to be honest... Well, you're entitled to expect that, aren't you? Absolutely. Absolutely. I have personally, you know, as of a couple of months ago, I spent time seeing and meeting survivors of sexual violence, and it is enormous trauma that they go through, they and their families.

And when they gather strength to open up, they have a hope that someone cares that something's going to happen. And to give credit to the government, if you want to have a look, it is something that the very body that you're talking about says that this is an initiative needs to be supported. This is an initiative that has created, you know, there have been successful prosecutions there for the first time in Kosovo. For example, women are receiving some level of compensation for what they've been through. So we need to continue. I welcome the report. I hope my colleagues are going to read it with care.

And I hope that this may be a moment when there is a moment of truth and rallying cry so that we inject necessary effort behind it. There was going to be a conference. It was initially cancelled, wasn't it, because of the election campaign? That's correct. Now it's going to happen, we are told, sometime this year. Absolutely, yes. Right. The plain fact is, during the election campaign,

I can barely remember a reference to foreign policy, let alone issues like this. One of the reasons, I guess, these initiatives are allowed to flounder up to a point is that, to be really blunt about it, the average voter the government doing about it? But if we look at the last election, we have to understand that it was a very particular one, driven by the whole saga of Brexit and driven by, you know, new era that this country is going into. So I don't think there was no space to discuss Iran nuclear deal. Why would there be a space to discuss Iran nuclear deal. Why would there be

a space to discuss PSVI? Do you think funding is going to be increased? Because I've been led to believe if you read some of the reports on this initiative, it was reduced to about 2 million quid and just four people working on it. Yes, yes, that's correct. But that is over from 2014 until 2020. And I am sort of excited to tell you that for the last two years, I have been campaigning and trying to inspire my colleagues in DFID and FCO, etc, that we dedicate 1%, a minimum 1% of DFID money to fighting violence against women. because it is exactly what you're saying. If someone, like in the case of Rohingya's post-ethnic cleansing in Burma, if women are waiting for some sort of funding to go through 10 loops in London and internationally in order to get help, that's nothing.

What you need, you need to have access to funds. I'm not saying this shouldn't be handouts, but it should be in the same way that we think about plastic sheets and food when people move, particularly women and girls. We ought to think about their well-being and what is it that they go through. We know that every single war has this element of sexual violence. We sometimes know about it. Sometimes the stigma is so thick and dark that nothing comes out until years later. And here, if I can just pay tribute to Nadia Murad, who so courageously came to speak about her experience and experience of her people in Iraq, Yazidis. And I think, you know, I was very pleased to hear when she was awarded Nobel Peace Prize with Dr. McVeighy, because we need people like her to speak up. And we need people like Dr. McVeighy to be acknowledged. Well, nobody doubts your commitment to the cause.

Thank you very much. Indeed. That is Baroness Aminka Helic. Thank you. Thank you for coming in. Quick statement from the Foreign Office. This report doesn't fully recognise the impact of the UK's leadership, which has mobilised the international community and brought what it describes as real change for survivors. That's a statement from the Foreign Office. Thank you very much for coming in. If you want to go to the Woman's Hour website, which of course you should do, almost on an hourly basis, bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. There's a new article there entitled Embracing the Joy of the Ordinary. It's written by the author and journalist Catherine Gray, and it's about how she improved her outlook on life and her day-to-day happiness after she stopped drinking six years ago. Also,

next week on the programme, we're talking about housing. I don't know if you recall Listener Week back in the summer of 2019. Housing was a subject we discussed then because one listener contacted us to say, what about middle-aged renters? It's really tough for us out there. It can be very, very difficult if you perhaps leave your house that you owned for a string of reasons, stuff may have happened. You then move into a rented property. You can't get back into home ownership. And that was tough. So that's something we'll be discussing, loosely speaking, next week when we chat to women who run housing associations. We'll hear about their roots in the women's suffrage movement, when housing,

just like now, was a key concern. And we'll consider whether the needs of women today have changed all that much since then. So that's next week on the programme. Now, to How Does Fat Feel? and our guest Phoebe, who was 16 when our reporter Enna Miller went to talk to her and to her mum, Ali. Now, Phoebe, you're with me now because we're going to hear from you again in a couple of minutes after we've heard from your previous interview. And that was you then, this is you now.

Have you heard your 16-year-old self then this is you now have you heard your 16 year old self recently yes i have in the last few weeks i uh me and a friend listened to it and it's it's a shock it is a massive shock just it's such a different person well i mean at your age because you are so young two years is a significant chunk of time it feels like nothing to me but it clearly is significant all right um we're going to hear your 16-year-old self. Here you are. We should say that after puberty, you did put weight on and you got a lot of negative attention. And well, let people just listen. Here you are at 16. Here's Phoebe. I'm not too keen on the word fat. I just think it's just got quite negative connotations surrounding it.

But that's what some people will label me as. So I'd go along with that because that's their label. It can be quite rubbish at times. But then sometimes it can be lovely. Like sometimes I love my body and it makes me feel happy about myself. And then other days it's like, oh, why do I have to have all this fat on me? And you just sometimes wish you could just take it off you that's something I'm coming to terms with that it's

okay to look like this it doesn't have to be such a bad thing and I think a lot of people associate oh fat's such a bad thing which is annoying. Women's Hour asked on Instagram to its listeners how does fat feel you wrote into us do you want to tell us what you wrote yeah definitely so I said I'm size 16 18 to 20 and to be honest fat shaming from myself and from others has made me feel horrid my PCOS and thyroid problem are not the only factor but are the main factors to my weight and what make it difficult to lose weight. I have a personal trainer and try to exercise as much as I can but it doesn't make weight loss any easier with my mental health physical health conditions making it that one bit harder.

So when strangers or idiots think it's okay to comment on my body it's disgusting because no one has the right to comment on others bodies.. Mentally, it is crushing if someone calls me out on my body because they don't know my situation. It's also a huge knock-on in my own mental health that my mind instantly turns to self-hate when it comes to my body. I dislike the word fat, just like I dislike the word thin. These labels don't define us. Size, appearance doesn't define us.

Only you can define yourself. So what made you decide, right, I'm going to write in and I'm going to see that? I think I just thought I wanted to share my opinion in a place where I felt other people will appreciate that and understand that opinion because where I live it's very rural. Not many other people I know are my size, so it's really hard to find someone to connect with

who really does understand how it feels. And when you see how fat feels what does fat feel like? I always felt like quite an outcast because I was the fat one. It makes you think why have I let myself do this to my body? People say stuff like no one will ever love you and it's like well that's not true especially when you like meet new people but I'm trying to make it not feel so crushing and trying to sort of embrace it more if that makes sense because there's not much I can do right now to change it apart from exercise and take my medication and eat well which I'm all doing so it's like I kind of just have to let my body do that bit for me if that makes sense. It sounds

like from what you say that sometimes being bigger as a child stopped you from being a child? Oh definitely I think it kind of took up a lot of my time I was just obsessive over how I'd look in clothes and in the mirror said I couldn't go swimming and stuff like most people at that age like 12 or 10 or whatever do go swimming and I loved swimming and what's put me off from it is because I got laughed at once in a swimming costume and I've never swum since. Why do I let someone else stop me from doing something that I love? But I'm going to try and get back to it. Also from being a 10-year-old who had boobs before anyone else and who was getting fat on her and all these very thin children surrounding me

and being called out for it. That was hard because it was like I was an outcast again and what became normal for you? I think just people laughing when I was running and peeing and stuff or I don't know being called fat by random boys who I don't know or people pointing at me randomly and laughing. you know they're looking at your body it's like a sinking feeling that you can tell and I'm sure other women who feel like this know that feeling you can tell when someone's judging you or looking at you for your weight or your body they're not laughing with you or anything they're laughing at you when year seven boys would say oh why are you so fat or if she's

so upset about being fat why doesn't she just lose it and stuff like that I got told that once yeah like being called a whale and that I should go back to the sea and it was like well done for your metaphors but how's that fair to me it just didn't make sense but it did start to feel like the norm so how do you feel you got bigger I ate when I got sad from my depression and anxiety I think I ate a lot because I didn't really have any true friends when I was in a really low place the food was my friend and I'd just eat when I was bored but then I'd be bored a lot because I wasn't doing anything

because I felt so bad in my head and that I'd get upset and then think, oh, I'm just going to eat some more because I'm upset. And it felt like no one understood how hard it was to kind of stop that cycle after a while. I'm Ali and I'm Phoebe's mum. What's it been like watching Phoebe go through all of this? It's been a really difficult time. Looking back over the last few years,

I feel we were in a place that we didn't understand. We couldn't see really what was right in front of us and what was happening and so as a mother do you blame yourself maybe when people see parent and their child is bigger they naturally blame the parent because they think well it's the parent that's feeding the child I did think that I thought that the food I was giving her was the wrong food. I was giving her too much food. I was very conscious of not talking in terms of calories with her. And I kept saying to myself, no, I can't be talking to her about going on diets because, you know, that might just trigger another really bad food problem. You know, she might stop eating. And so it was a real dilemma as to which way to turn with it. I mean, she just wasn't in a place to take on board

any information. Her self-esteem was so low. I never thought it was mum or dad's fault. I always thought it was just me and that it was who I was. What's it like hearing that your daughter describes herself as gross at one point? It's horrible to hear, really horrible to hear. She's always been wonderful in our eyes and lovely and sunny. She's always been the sunniest of the three girls. But I had an underlying feeling that there was something clinical going on with her as well. And it took a long time for that to become apparent as to what it was. You had lots of blood tests, didn't you?

It was found to have just a borderline underactive thyroid and is on thyroxine to support her thyroid gland. And also it was found to have a degree of polycystic ovaries. Phoebe takes metformin, which helps to metabolise insulin in her body. So enabling her body to convert glucose into energy. so that is working really well at the moment in helping her to lose a bit of weight. Did it have an impact on your family? It had a great impact on the family as Phoebe's mental health deteriorated and her self-harming increased that became a real crisis point for us all. I think it's isolated her. People have shied away from her I think. I think that's very accurate. I did isolate from family and friends and peers and yeah I never

fitted into a group because they all looked the same at that age and everyone dressed the same and no one really had cellulite or stretch marks and talking to my friend last night we were just talking about stretch marks and she was just saying like everyone has them I feel like as I'm getting older people are kind of realizing what mum said there's more to someone than what you just see you've got to get to know them and you've got to hear what they have to say and hear what they've gone through before you can make a clear judgment on them. We're in the centre of Bristol at the shopping centre, just going round the corner to one of Phoebe's favourite shops.

I get nervous coming to shopping centres because not many people are large. When was the last time you came down into the city centre to go clothes shopping? Probably about four years ago. When we used to come out shopping together, I used to start to feel nervous inside about were we going to find something that would fit her,

that she would like? I think it got to the point where it was like I'm kind of just fed up of feeling like, ugh, about shopping. Shall we go in and have a look and see if there's anything that you like? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I've gone for stuff I probably wouldn't usually have picked out in a shop like this. The only place I've ever got jeans

was online or in vintage shops. So I've got a pair of dunderies which are American Builders ones. So they're very big but they fit so well and it's like my best find ever so I've got a long sleeve jumpsuit and I have a black one exactly the same but it's a playsuit it's a lovely stretchy fabric and I've got another dress that I picked out

am I forcing you to wear this I think it's lovely it's lovely I think I've always been worried about dresses though when I suggested this dress? I think it's lovely. It is lovely. I've always been worried about dresses, though. When I suggested this dress to you, so it's burnt orange, what material would you say this is? I don't actually know, but it's very stretchy. It's like almost corduroy, but not. The thing that I noticed was that you instantly said to me, OK, I'll try it, is that an extra large?

Yeah. And I was like, oh, well, that'll fit you, I think. Yeah, it's a medium, but... So you automatically now think extra large? Yeah. And I was like, oh well, that will fit you I think. Yeah, well it's a medium but... So you automatically now you think extra large? Yeah. So, do you want to try? Yeah, definitely. Okay, I'll be back in a minute, yeah?

Thank you. I actually really like it. I can see myself wearing it in the summer. It's like a summer dress. Phoebe, you're in a medium. I know. You asked me to get you an extra large or i'm in a medium ah i will go home and tell dad and my sisters i fit into a medium today i was thinking why does this have to be such a revelation next one next one yes One? That's one, yes. I'm in love. Oh, my God. A high street jumpsuit fits me.

And it's not from online. It's crazy. Maybe I'll wear this to prom. Doesn't it look nice? I just see mum smiling. This doesn't happen often. This is something I don't remember for a while. She looks great

absolutely great and just to see the happiness in her like she's just said she's found something in a high street store that fits her really well and compliments her figure yeah it's quite emotional really. Obviously I've been looking through all your Instagram pages. And there's two photos that I really, really like of you. One of them is looking at a mirror, taking a selfie. And the caption is, red lipstick instantly makes me feel like a queen. Oh, I love that one. Yeah. Mum bought me this red lipstick.

I've never had red lipstick before. All of a sudden, I just felt like this goddess and this queen and I was like I can do anything that's what I loved about it I'd spoken to you before and I thought here's a girl who's been through a lot is going through a lot if you look at her Instagram account she is happy full of life but when I have been feeling sad you put on a bright colour and if I'm feeling really down about my body that day you suddenly distract you that red lipstick you put on this like oh I feel like so much better now it's like fake it till you make it and then the other picture that I like I've got your hands on your hips and you've got pink or white ballerina long skirt is it my

tula skirt yeah and you've got your hands on your hips and you're smiling and your eyes are closed and then underneath you say I feel like a queen in this skirt and you just look absolutely and utterly content oh thank you I did feel very happy in that that was the first time I felt pretty in a long time and didn't have bits of my fat coming out or anything I felt really perfect and I wanted to share that with people so in a way time and didn't have bits of my fat coming out or anything. I felt really perfect and I wanted to share that with people. So in a way you've come a long way. Oh, I think so. I think so.

I'm not completely there, but I think I am, yeah, getting there definitely. I know I'm only 16, but I look back on my 12-year-old self and I think you've got to embrace it and I never did and I feel like if I'd done that earlier then I wouldn't have got to stages like in my mental health felt like I was the only person in the world who was gross had fat all over me and I felt disgusting and then now I've kind of got to the age where people don't care about that anymore I'm looking forward to moving on because I get to almost create my new self and I have to deal with this past of these people who have said things and I can surround myself with people who I know will accept me no matter what my body looks

like. Seems like it's been a long journey. It's been very long it has been very long tiring it's been tiring I feel bad that I've put my family through this but like we were saying well we're a family and that's what you do and we have these bad experiences but that doesn't mean that you don't love me and I don't love you and that my sisters and dad were all there for each other. I'm just grateful for them, really. You're 16 and got your whole life ahead of you. What's Phoebe going to be like in even a couple of years' time? In fact, what do you hope for yourself?

Could you live with this weight forever? Yeah, I think I hope that I'll be happy and content and I will have a love for myself because if you can't love yourself how in the hell are you gonna love somebody else that's one of my favorite quotes ever I won't want to be a size 18 to 20 forever if I'm this size and I'm really not happy then I would change that because that's what I want to do. But I have to change it for the right reasons and the right reasons are for myself, not for someone else. And now 18-year-old Phoebe is here.

That was our reporter, Enna Miller, in conversation with her when she was just 16. What strikes you most about hearing that interview now, Phoebe? For me, it's just how different my opinion of myself is now I think it's just the mindset is different um like just hearing like it's just it's just so odd hearing me back then and now it does sound from that interview that school was an uncomfortable place for you to be definitely yeah you're not there anymore no no I'm at college now New friends, new surroundings And people just don't

It's not about how I look It's about the person I am To go back to the school I gather that some of the pupils at the place Did speak to you after that interview And acknowledge that they shouldn't have spoken to you In the way they had Yeah, I had one girl a few weeks ago message me and she said um I remember her calling me fat or whispering

about me whatever and she said I'm sorry and she said um there was one girl that after the interview was aired who said oh my god that was amazing like you were so good and just in my head I was like well like a few weeks ago you literally called me a whale and I was just thinking it was just shocked me really so what does that tell you about them I suppose and about the insecurities that let's face it we all have whatever age we are but particularly when we're teenagers I think it's it's just a reflection of their own they're obviously very troubled inside because I would never dream of calling someone that or commenting on how they looked in a negative way it was always trying to be positive to people so it just reflects that

they're obviously troubled and they're insecure and because I looked different then to everyone else that I was the one they targeted and yeah and at college people are more mature and more accepting and you're more accepting of yourself? I think, as well. And I've completely accepted that this is my body and I'm not unhealthy in this body. So why do I need to change this body for someone else? Because they might not like how I look. Why do I need to do that? Tell me, if you don't mind, what your GP has said to you, because I know you have spoken to your doctor.

So I asked her, I have quite regular checkups, not too often, but I asked her the weight I am now, am I unhealthy? Do I need to lose weight? And she said no. And that is the opinion. I was my own opinion of myself. And my doctor's medical advice is what I will listen to, not anyone else's. In that piece, you go shopping for clothes. And I mean, I go shopping for clothes. I can't stand it. It's one of the most difficult things I ever do. Tell me about that experience of going shopping.

It was incredible because I had not been shopping for a few years. Or if I had gone shopping with my mum or friends, I hated it because nothing would fit. Or I'd have to go into the women's at the age of 14. I'd have to go into the women's at the age of 14 I'd have to go into women's or even younger because I was bigger so to finally kind of make that step into going into a changing room

a mainstream shop not just like a charity shop or something and tried on clothes in a medium for me at 16 that meant so much to me well we could hear that and of course enna congratulates you and i totally understand why she does she's thrilled for you because you're so happy but then i'm asking myself is that right that i should feel happy for you that you're in a medium yeah do you see what i mean well yeah no now looking back i don't care what clothes size I wear I try

something or if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit if it fits and it's a certain number or a certain size then that's that it fits I'll buy it if I want it and go home but back then I think because nothing had ever really fit before I was always just mindset was so different I was always large or extra large or I was a size 20 22 so it meant so much to me to be a smaller size and now I'm just like I don't I really just don't care your mum Ali is here today but and she also featured in that recording um tell me about your relationship because I've got daughters and sometimes it can be there are moments of tension around food I'll be honest with you I think there are and i'm

not i'm i don't know whether i should apologize for myself or not here but mothers are protective of their children end of and they don't want them to stand out or to be picked on yeah i think it was just at the end of the day we've have had a strange relationship when it comes to food and my weight and i think she was just concerned for my health as well because I was under lots of investigations because I gained so much weight periods vanished I didn't have a period for a long time and um it was just kind of piling on even if I was eating like normal just sort of day-to-day you know just a regular food routine and um so I think she was just concerned for my health and I was being bullied so my parents and my family were just I think she was just concerned for my health and I was being

bullied so my parents and my family were just I think they're just worried they didn't like to see that at all well for the benefit of our listeners most of whom are more likely to be parents than to be children of your age what do you want and need from your parents um I think acceptance is one of the things I think I don't want their approval I don't want them to um yeah just acceptance I think they they do accept me for who I am um I think at a time it was hard I think now they accept that I am I look how I am but I liked that I like how I look and me and my mum were talking about this last night we were just having a general conversation and I think we've come really far in in our relationship and I think it's so important

for parents to if your child is unhealthy I'm not because if you are overweight or obese or whatever um and you are unhealthy and a medical advice is to lose weight then you should probably listen to that but um my situation every situation is unique my situation is that I don't need to lose weight then you should probably listen to that but um my situation every situation is unique my situation is that i don't need to lose weight and i think my mum's kind of come to terms with that now i think we've kind of settled in a good place well it's fantastic to talk to you um i should say here's here's one supportive tweet for you from helen who says i'm amazed by the strength self-confidence and maturity of that young woman on Woman's Hour now. And may your light continue to shine so bright you're an example to all young people.

Oh, that's so lovely. And I know you've got journalistic ambitions. Well, as far as I'm concerned, I'm feeling quite threatened, actually. Phoebe is 18, we should say, and you're phenomenal. Thank you very much. Fantastic contribution. And any other thoughts, welcome on that, of course,

at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, or you can email the programme via our website, bbc.co.uk slash Women's Hour. Actually, this is not unconnected because the author Rosamund Lupton is here. Welcome, Rosamund. Hello, nice to be here. Your new, well, this is a thriller, isn't it? I think that's okay. It's called Three Hours. Yes. And teenagers feature very prominently in this book. They do. They are absolutely central characters to the book. And I was very keen that in this situation where it's a very frightening situation that they behave with astonishing courage and fortitude. Well, let's just outline what that situation is.

So the first paragraph of the book, the headmaster of a liberal English school is shot and badly wounded. And two teenagers grab him and drag him into the library. And it doesn't have a lock on the door, so they barricade it with books. They pull the books from the bookshelves. And the story then follows the next three hours what happens. And you have the kids and the teachers who are in the school and are captives. You have the parents, desperately anxious, of course, gathering in a nearby leisure centre.

And you have the police who are tasked with getting everyone out alive. So we follow the different things. And I was interested that the people who are captives, the world is shrinking around them. So smells are more intense, sounds are much louder, and it's very claustrophobic. And then outside, this thing gets very big. So the police are joined by counter-terrorism,

Cobra is convened. And of course, the media are also there. Yeah, and international media get involved and social media's catching fire. Yes, and to be honest with you, I've got to say I found this quite difficult. Yes. Not least because we know,

I don't even want to mention the name of the place where that horrific shooting happened in a school in this country. And it is deeply troubling territory this, isn't it? It is very troubling territory and I think possibly that's why I wanted to explore it. And I thought I was motivated by wanting to look at quite dark things as well, what might cause this kind of incident.

So hate speech and terrorism and also our treatment of refugees, all sorts of things. But as I was writing it, by the end of the first chapter, probably as those kids were dragging in their headteacher into the library, I realised that it was actually about the strength of love and community that means that these ordinary people, on what really should be an ordinary school morning, behave with astonishing courage. As a reader, you are flung headlong into the action.

Yes. This is incredibly, it's staccato. Is that the right, it's just wham, wham, wham. And I was frankly quite frightened. Yes, I think it's got a very strong narrative drive. I think it's quite pacey. I was a TV writer, so I'm quite used to cutting between different scenes. And I wanted to start with, I thought I was going to tell it from one point of view.

So the wounded headmaster or the teenage girl who's looking after him. And there was another teacher who's looking after a class of seven-year-olds or a police officer who's pregnant and dealing with that and trying to sort out what's going on in the government's heads. And I kept thinking, I don't know which one to choose. And then I thought, well, I'll have to tell it from all their points of view to make this one story. So that's why it's got this staccato thing. You're going from place to place to a parent and she's terrified she hasn't heard from her son. And then you go to a little boy who's hiding or you go to their teacher or you go to a police officer. And I found by looking at all those different points of view, this whole story started to emerge. And it was a story about the victims.

You know, it's not a story about the gunman. It's not glorifying. No, it isn't. I mean, there will be no spoilers. I should say one of the, for me, one of the most impactful relationships was that between Jamie, who's one of the boys, and his mum, Beth, who was on the outside, of course, and as any parent would be, utterly petrified, trying to make contact with him. Exactly. And I think she just remembers back to conversations between the two of them and you get the closeness between them. And what's interesting for me in that situation is she thought she loved him in quite a selfish way.

She thought that when he got a girlfriend, when he went to university, she would be possessive. And she realises during this that, first of all, she's never going to give him grief about his A-level work again, or if he goes to university. But more than that, she wants him to grow away from her. She wants him to grow up and have a life. And it's a letting go. So her love for him is much more selfless than she originally thought. And I was interested in the book in looking at love and how people can discover things.

I mean, there's a teenage couple, and he's terribly terribly brave for her and she's very selfless for him. And they discover they love each other. And in the middle of all this kind of darkness and horror, there's this kind of joy and almost incongruous elation that they discover this. I suppose there's also, I'm slightly haunted by Jamie's mum's desire to make contact with him. This is before this event. And she pins her hopes on tiny events where they both chat about Wolf Alice in the car, for example. And if you have teenagers or you've had them,

you do understand that because you don't get many moments of genuine connection. I think that's right. And I think also you might feel you're losing connection. So when teenagers grow up or change, sometimes they become closer and sometimes they go away and that's part of the process of growing up, but it can also be worrying, I think, for a parent.

I know that you did speak to a school, didn't you, who helped you write this book? Well, I mean, I have teenage sons. I think they were the most helpful thing in their friends, you know, being around teenagers and realising that the snowflake thing is a completely ludicrous label for teenagers. Phoebe agrees with you there.

Yeah, Phoebe's nodding, which is lovely, thank you. Expand on your thoughts on that. I just find it odd that we label an entire generation with this terrible label of snowflakes when actually they're the most extraordinary, resilient and courageous group of people. And it didn't reflect on the people I knew of that age, it simply didn't reflect it.

And in the book I wanted to capture that energy and that kind of zest for life and the love teenagers have for each other, which I think is not shown here for friends, the friendships they have that are so strong. And love between teenagers is as real and important as adults. I mean, in the book, I think the teacher's a little bit in awe of it. Yes. I mean, we know, because we've often discussed it on this programme, that teenagers today do suffer from anxiety.

There's a lot to be anxious about. And I've got to put it to you, Rosamund, that reading this book is not going to make any teenager any less anxious. I don't know. I think they're quite empowered. I think, yes, it's a terrible situation. And it's something I think teenagers think about. They have to practice these lockdown drills. And I think one of the interesting things for me was researching the book. And I actually was as I was writing it there were teenagers in America, two of whom fought back and they actually died saving their classmates and I think it's because they'd had time to think about

what would I do, what would I want to do and they weren't passive and I think that that kind of heroism is very inspiring and I hope that teenagers who read the book won't be frightened by it but will actually think that's a good way of looking at how we are. I mean, look, you're a great writer and writers can always make a case for writing their books because you're highly intelligent people. And I'm on thin ice, too, because I enjoy reading books about crime and I enjoyed psychological thriller.

But I've got to say, I did find this a tough one, the scenario. I think what I do want to say, it's not like an American school shooting where a shooter goes in and just goes on a terrible rampage. It is not a book about carnage. There's those shots at the beginning of the first paragraph. And then it's a hold off. It's really what's going to happen next. So it's about tension. It's not, it really isn't. I couldn't write a book about that kind of carnage. It would be awful. So that's not what it's about. And also, unlike the States, it's very hard to get a gun in the UK. So there's a much bigger... Thank goodness for that.

Yeah, exactly. Thank goodness for that. Yeah, OK. So would you, just trying to think whether you'd advise schools to teach this book? No, I think there's other things in the book that are useful for schools. I think there's a lot about extremism and how young people can be if you like radicalized and influenced and i think it's important that

maybe teachers are also on the lookout i was very interested in my research there's a lot of things i didn't know before i wrote the book in terms of you know schools have their lockdown procedures it's every school does so they don't yeah and i don't know i mean i the the my kids and their friends they haven't been horrified by the book and nor have their parents maybe that's because they've been kind to me but i think on the whole they've come away from it feeling quite optimistic about human nature and how as i say people who care for one another in a community like a school do look after one another. And I think that's quite inspiring and empowering. That's the author Rosamund Lupton, whose new book is called Three Hours.

Now, to your thoughts on the programme today, loads of stuff about Phoebe. We'll do those in a second or two. But Mrs Holland, good morning to you, Mrs Holland, just wants to know what was the name of the guest discussing sexual violence in conflict? Because I thought she was impressive. I'd like to add my support to the work she's doing. Well, indeed, she is a hugely impressive woman and it's Baroness Arminka Helic and her surname is H-E-L-I-C. She's a woman who actually came to this country from Bosnia in 1992 hugely impressive she's now a conservative peer in the House of Lords

now to Phoebe and this is from Julia I connect and identify with Phoebe as I've been fat and I feel that my relationship to fat did have an impact on my daughter who suffered with anorexia the Thyroid Trust said it's great to hear teenage Phoebe's journey over the last couple of years and to know that her underactive thyroid is now well managed and she's healthy and happy. Thank you and go Phoebe.

Sarah, more support for Phoebe. Oh, to be as articulate as Phoebe. She was brilliant, really interesting and sensible. Another listener says, I was really impressed by Phoebe's confidence and her self-possession in dealing with the issue in such a mature way. I just want to wish her all the best. Louise says,

What a wonderful young woman. Thank you for bravely opening up and sharing your experience. I am sending this episode to my daughter's school and asking her head of house to play it to their year group. I hope it's going to deter would-be bullies and empower those at risk through her voice. She really resonated and made me think we can do more to positively enforce our little girls' egos and views of themselves.

Jill says, On a day when one young woman has left our country due to spiteful, misogynistic and hateful comments, it's been heartening to hear Phoebe this morning. Thank you, Woman's Hour, for giving her a platform to tell her inspiring story. And Pam just cuts to the chase. Woman's Hour should snap up Phoebe as a regular contributor to the programme. I mean, Pam, that is it is a good idea.

She really is. She's a great broadcaster. I know she does have an interest in journalism and she should most definitely pursue it. And an email from Karen who says, I was really interested in what Phoebe had said about swimming. I'm a year round cold water swimmer. I swim mainly at the ponds in Hampstead and at a Lido, but I'll get into any body of water. I'm sure you and Phoebe will have heard of all of the many health, mental and physical benefits of cold water swimming. But the point is we are all shapes and sizes.

And in fact, being bigger is a plus. It keeps you warmer. Okay. Right. I will have to take your word for that, Karen. I can tell you absolutely straight out now, I will never see you in the pools on Hampstead Heath doing cold water swimming.

But thanks very much for listening to the programme. We do appreciate it. Now, Weekend Woman's Hour, the highlights of our Woman's Hour week, two minutes past four tomorrow afternoon. We are discussing concussion in women, the perfumer affair. You might well have seen the BBC series running about that at the moment. Christine Keeler was on Woman's Hour with Jenny back in 2001. And you can hear some of that interview in Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow

and also get the thoughts of Joan Bakewell and Professor Kate Williams. We'll also discuss why women lap up fiction in the company of Emeritus Professor Helen Taylor. And we'll talk too about the government's youth justice advisors calling for a review of the age of criminal responsibility it is only 10 in England and Wales and there are many people who think that really does have to change that's weekend woman's hour tomorrow afternoon two minutes past four you'll also of course get the podcast if you're listening to this you certainly will and we're back live Monday morning on the radio at two minutes past 10. Henry Akeley disappeared from his home on the edge of Rendlesham Forest somewhere

around the end of June 2019. They come every night now. The police don't believe me. Please, I just need you to get in touch. What we uncovered is a mystery that has sent us deep into England's past, to an area steeped in witchcraft, the occult, secret government operations. Now we have multiple sites of five lights with a similar shape. And something that might indeed be altogether otherworldly. This is The Whisperer in Darkness. Available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.