Woman's Hour - How to have difficult conversations

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

We all have to have difficult conversations at some point in our lives. We have them at work, at home, and with friends and family. So why do we often feel ill-equipped to initiate that challenging chat? And why are we not more optimistic that airing our issues will lead to a more positive outcome for all involved? In this special edition of Woman's Hour, Nuala McGovern explores how we can have better difficult conversations. She is joined by psychotherapist, international conflict mediator and author of How to Agree to Disagree: Turning Conflict into Connection, Gabrielle Rifkind. She reflects on what makes a conversation difficult and the skills we require to tackle them. In our personal lives, difficult conversations can feel especially daunting, because they’re usually with the people we care about most. TV and podcast host Vicky Pattison and comedian and author Helen Thorn reveal how they approach discussing sensitive topics with their loved ones. And difficult conversations at work can make even the most confident among us feel strangely tongue‑tied: asking for a pay rise, giving feedback or managing conflict. Entrepreneur Izzy Obeng MBE and former social worker Sophie Baker explain how to have the hardest conversations at work. And romance author, Talia Hibbert, explains how she scripts difficult conversations and explores how they work as plot devices in novels and on screen.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Sophie Powling

Hello, this is Neu La McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. This hour, difficult conversations. Even the phrase can strike fear into those who avoid conflict. But it is pretty much impossible to go through life without having them. And for many women who are raised to be people-pleasers, it can be a real challenge. But we need to have those conversations in work, at home, with friends, and family. But why do we often feel so ill-equipped

to initiate that challenging chat? And why are we not more optimistic that airing-festering issues will lead to a more positive outcome for all involved? Well, this hour, we want to learn why many women avoid those difficult conversations and how can we overcome that avoidance.

We'll also discuss the skills we're required to tackle them and what can we expect if we do seize the opportunity to get down to brass tax? We have brilliant guests. to help us navigate this tricky terrain. Psychotherapist and international conflict mediator, Gabrielle Rifkind,

will be telling me how her work in the Middle East has informed how she deals with everyday conflict resolution. We'll hear from the TV and podcast host, Vicki Patterson, and comedian Helen Thorne, who've approached discussing sensitive topics with their loved ones. And we have the entrepreneur, Izzy Obeng, MBA, and the social worker, Sophie Baker, who'll explain how to have those hardest of conversations

at work. And we will also hear from the romance author Talia Hibbert, who'll tell us about scripting difficult conversations and how they work as plot devices in novels and on screen. We are not live today, but if you have got something you want to share, you can still contribute to the conversation on social media. So let's get to it. Some difficult conversations change everything. Others never happen. And that too has consequences. At times, We soften our language. We don't really say what we mean. Sometimes we avoid the tough topics altogether.

We worry about conflict, rejection, are simply saying the wrong thing. But what if learning how to have difficult conversations is an important skill that we can develop? Well, Gabrielle Rifkind is the director of the Oxford process, a conflict resolution organization that works quietly behind the scenes to keep lines of communication open during international disputes. She's been working as a mediator in the Middle East for over 20 years and is advised on conflicts globally.

She also has a new book. It's called How to Agree, to Disagree, Turning Conflict into Connection. So a lot to learn. Gabrielle, welcome. What do you think makes something difficult to talk about? There are probably many reasons. And I think partly because we've all had experiences where conversations have gone wrong. And also maybe we've even seen in our...

own family where there's been conflict and we haven't seen it resolved. We've seen it actually get worse. But I think the other idea I wanted just to sort of set the scene with is I think one of the reasons it is so difficult to have these conversations is we have in our minds at the end of it we need to agree. Now I wanted to throw this idea upside down and and say, what would it look like if we started a conversation right at the beginning by acknowledging that we might not end up agreeing, that we don't have to pull people over the barricade, they don't have to think like us, and that we might, just in a spirit of curiosity, whether, you know, it's someone who's different religion, different politics, thinks profoundly differently to you,

maybe someone your family who annoys you, what happens if you, open your mind and say, I want to learn how they think and also end up landing in a space where you might not agree. Could that be fine? That is kind of what I want to throw in. We often think with the difficult conversation that there has to be a resolution of sorts, but perhaps we're framing the resolution in the wrong way? I think that is part of the problem because people have different histories, different back, different traumas, different scripts in their head. And in fact, I kind of learnt this from my work in the international conflict resolution

that if you assume people are going to end up agreeing, you're going to be actually paralysed. And disappointed. Frustrated. And it might well end going back to war. So it's big stakes. But even in everyday conversations, that you might actually land in the terror. Well, you still don't agree, but you did understand each other's point of view.

And that can actually be a huge relief. And that shying away from conflict, how do you see it? How do you understand it? And is there a difference between men and women? Ah. Slat. I sighed. Because I think it's complicated.

People have different styles. You know, I don't think you can assume that all women are people. pleasers. Some people rub salt in the wound and they make it worse. Others avoid conflict, men and women. So I think what I say in the book throughout is it's worth exploring your own conflict style. How do you manage it? What do you do? If you do avoid it and are in the pleasing camp, it can blow up because you've avoided it for so long. I have a story in the book where when the couple eventually have a fight, it's so enormous.

They don't know how to pull back. So there's a lot for saying for having small little conflicts that you work on resolving. But there are others who maybe they've seen it around its natural state is actually to stir it up, make it worse, and make it very unsafe. And so the essential message is conflict is normal, but we can make it all better or worse. And if it's at our best, if we can manage a good conversation or several conversations, in that space you can possibly feel more connected. Well, an area where a lot of difficult conversations happen,

or with the ones we love. Maybe you're with your family right now listening to this bank holiday special and there's a few issues bubbling under that you haven't approached. In our personal lives, those difficult conversations can feel daunting because there were people that we care about,

partners or parents or friends, sometimes the ones who know exactly how to press our buttons. Joining me to discuss a little bit of these tricky conversations is the TV presenter, podcast host and women's health campaigner, Vicki Patterson. She was a star on last year Strictly Come Dancing. You'll know her from a number of topical documentaries. Good to have you back with us, Vicki. Thank you so much for having us. And writer-comedian Helen Thorn and the author of How to Face Big Change and Come Back Stronger. Also good to have you with this, Alan. Thank you so much. So, Vicky, you host the podcast, Get a Grip. We do. Called an unapologetic group chat for women. And you hosted with Angela Scanlan. Does that mean that you're good at difficult conversations? I'm a difficult woman in general, I think.

And anyone who's familiar with my previous work will probably attest to that. I think over the years I've mellowed and softened, done a lot of work on myself. I'd like to think my difficultness is more, it has a purpose now rather than just being for the sake of it. But yeah, I think me and Angela together are incredibly spicy, quite fired up about the things that matter. and aren't afraid to have an opinion and advocate for myself, which I think is very important. How about you, Helen? Do you lean into conversations that are difficult or avoid them?

I'm getting better at it. I'm so cute. Trying my best. You're doing great. I'm a bona fide people pleaser. Like, I'm the daughter of a vicar. My father was emotionally explosive and my mum was conflict avoidance,

which is a magical recipe for someone becoming a place. people please it because I hated seeing them fight and I hated seeing my mum shrink. And she would say, well, that's just men. So just, you know, be quiet. And I was bullied at school. So I was like, I learned to shrink myself a little bit more. And then I think that's why I became a comedian because that's the ultimate validation, isn't it? But then as my personal life sort of progressed, I met my ex-husband when I was 19th.

And I sort of followed this pattern. I can see the modelling. And then 22 years later, after meeting him, I found out he'd been having an affair. And we did 18 months of couple counselling. And during that time, he was having an affair. So I know. So, you know, there was many an opportunity to tell me about having it off with another lady, so to speak.

But he was so conflict avoidant as well. So I think that was that whole situation. And then having to turn around and tell the children about us separating and getting divorced was one of the hardest things I had to do. And I remember sitting the children down And I think I was just about to change their lives forever I bought a big bowl of sweets And we sat down very calmly and said, you know

Dad has met another lady and this has consequences But I sugar-coated it by saying And we're getting a kitten because your dad's allergic to cats Out with the old, in with the new So Not saying that you have to promise a cat for every divorce conversation But it helped. It did help.

And yeah, but I'm getting better at it. And I think I was forced to actually have these big, because I think for so long I avoided it, and now bit by bit I'm getting better. That was a very long answer to your question. But it was a fascinating answer. I'm so sorry you went through that because I'm sure it was incredibly difficult,

along with small children. Gabrielle, when you hear that, how to have a conversation while you're in pain and about to cause pain, to put it frankly. One of the key things is when there is conflict is you have to take responsibility for yourself. You cannot start by blaming somebody else. Or if you do, you end up in a cul-de-sac. It actually takes a great deal of honesty on your part to think,

what can I do to change the conditions? It's just, and we are very, very prone want to go into blame. And the first thing we want to say, it's all your fault if you hadn't behaved like this. And of course, you know, we have to think how do we create the conditions for a different kind of conversation. But if you're going to start one, you do have to bring the temperature down. I talk about this idea of the pause buzzing. How can you actually find a state where you don't feel quite as emotional? And then you have to get quite strategic.

what's my end game? Where do I want to get to? Now, you might have decided it actually is the end. As far as I'm concerned, that deception is enough. Or if you say, and there are plenty of people who do stay together who've had affairs,

I think I want to see if there is still space to change it. The question is, how do you have that difficult conversation? So if we can, we might start with, look, we have been very close. This is really hard for me,

but I want to understand better how this has happened, why it's happened. And I do want to listen to the story. This is only if you want to retrieve it and turn it into something different. And then when you start listening, now that's the tricky one, because usually we're listening,

we're not really listening, we're listening trying to insert ourselves as to what we're going to say next to look smarter and cleverer. I think you may be wanting me, to pours on the listening talk. She's having a difficult conversation.

Trying to tell me to do a bit more listening, I think. Well, I'm not meant to talk. I'm to listen. But I do want to. All that is really interesting. And I think it's a very, what would I say, contentious, fiery area, which will resonate with many people

that are listening as well to try and, I suppose, understand them and then make a decision afterwards what it is you want to or what way you want to proceed. Helen was talking about our kids. It sounded like you created the best situation possible to have that difficult conversation at that time.

Vicki, I want to talk about kids with you because some of our listeners will have found the conversation about whether to have kids or not a difficult one with their partner. This is something you've been really open about and it is one thing to approach you within the four walls of your own home. But it must be much harder then to be public about it.

I know you made the documentary, maybe baby, for example. And I'd be curious just how those conversations went or how you found them? I suppose, so I'm 38 now and I've been married for two years nearly. And it felt like a natural time for us to be having these conversations. But that's not to say it was easy, you know. I also think as well to sort of and say a point about having them in a really public forum

I'm someone who has been in the public eye in particular in like a reality TV space since I was in like my early 20s you know and I think when you do something consistently in those like formative years it absolutely blurs your perception of what is normal to share I don't necessarily know when to stop

So we chose to make the documentary because I felt like if I was feeling quite confused and alone and conflicted over the decision of having children then potentially there was other women out there feeling the same. I think women's fertility and infertility journeys are often met with judgment and there's a bit of stigma there too. And I just realised that if we're hoping to break down this stigma I encourage people to foster more empathy and compassion,

then these conversations have to be had in the sunlight. So even though it was difficult at times, I knew we were doing the right thing. And I suppose with this sort of conversation, it's never going to be one conversation, right? I mean, it takes quite a while before there's any sort of line drawn under it, whether it's to decide not to have children or whether you have a child and then people will be maybe asking whether you're going to have a second child.

It's never ending. It's never ending. But I think with something like this in particular, because you'll need to have that difficult conversation or tricky conversation again and again to see where the other person's head is at. Yeah. Well, I mean, this conversation originally started for us about five years ago. Right.

I froze my eggs. Yeah. And that was born from a place of me being significantly older than my husband. So I'm about six years older than I. and at the time I remember thinking that our relationship was just in its infancy I think we'd been together about three years and even though I was mid-30s and you know felt those biological body clocks ticking and the societal pressure and all the rest of it

I felt like we weren't ready to take that leap so we had the conversation about freezing more eggs he was incredibly supportive as he's always been I don't want to sound smug especially after you've just told us I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm happy for you. And Urquan is his name to give him. Sorry. Herkhan is a really lovely man. I feel awful. Yeah, he's a nice man. So we had the conversation and it's been in the background and in the forefront over the next few years.

And I think, yeah, in the last six months, it's definitely become a more prominent conversation in where everyday life. But, you know, you're not always going to agree. Oh, yeah. We fundamentally agree on more stuff, but ultimately, like, we are going to have some disagreements about stuff. So I think honest and clear lines of communication and, you know, a little bit of respect,

patients, being a bit of having a measured approach really goes, like, a long way. We've flip-flopped on whether or not to have children quite a lot because it's such a huge responsibility. And myself have got PMDD. Yes. worried about what type of mother I would be able to be with that.

But ultimately, I think that's approaching this conversation and this very serious, difficult topic with respect for each other and patience and sort of both wanting to do the right thing. I think that's how we got through it. Can you tell me, PMDD is premenstrual disorder. Disorder. Yeah, yeah, which can be very debilitating. Yeah, I mean, it manifests itself differently in absolutely everybody.

But for me, in the luteal phase of my period, so sort of like seven to ten days before, I suffer with anxiety, insomnia, body dysmorphia, dark thoughts. And yeah, it can be incredibly heartbreak and debilitating. You can't articulate yourself properly, which I really don't like. I like to be able to communicate.

Get this little brain fog and it just, takes away all your good bits, I think. And I think a lot of women can find it challenging to talk about health, whether that's with their GP or at work, for example, if it's something that is affecting them in a day-to-day way. You have spoken about your experiences, Vicky, of medical misogyny. You discussed it with the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, West

Streeting, who was in with us a few weeks ago as well. What was that like? Difficult or not? So I think I found advocating for myself in that space quite difficult initially because I suppose the very nature of medical misogyny. I was just ignored for so long, dismissed, gaslit, made to believe that the things I was complaining about were inconsequential, were insignificant. I was essentially hysterical. I was told a number of things like every woman has a period

they're just dealing with it better than you are and you know periods get worse as you get older and this is just PMS I was told have you tried losing weight honestly from the sublime to the ridiculous and it became incredibly frustrating but I suppose the one thing that really bothered me the most out of this is that

over the course of about five years getting passed from Pellipost and as I say a victim of medical misogyny being ignored. I went silent. I went quiet. And I think it was the shame I felt, you know, feeling like I was maybe wasting people's time. Maybe I was just weak and I couldn't deal with it as well as every other woman. So I did. I went a bit silent and I retreated into myself and didn't want to be a bother. And then it was through social media, funnily enough. Like I started to find a bit of a community on there.

and I spoke about my symptoms and, you know, I found it to be comfort and a bit of an outlet for what I was going through. And that was when I first heard about the term PMDD. A woman said, this doesn't sound like a normal period. This sounds like PMDD. And I had that a couple more times and I felt bolstered, in fact,

by, you know, the fact that somebody was listening. I felt heard, you know. And I eventually was able to get a diagnosis. And I think that entire experience, the medical misogyny, the feeling lost, alone like I was slowly slipping into insanity and no one cared. I felt emboldened to do something about it, to use me platform for good to try and make this

situation slightly better for any women suffering with female reproductive health issues, you know, and it was through a film I made with JNB that where Streaten got in touch and yeah, we ended up working together to come up with the new women's health strategy which I feel incredibly proud to have played like even a small part in because fingers crossed it is going to change the lives of women suffering

and I can see that you're emotional about it because no, not at all, not at all. I think it's really important because I think what you've done by having that difficult conversation and repeating it again and again until you got heard you're going to make it easier for other women. So the conversation won't

be as difficult for them. Because that takes a certain sort of perseverance, Gabrielle, to be able to not only have that one difficult conversation. I think Helen, I'm sure, has gone through this with her children as well, in the sense to go back to it again and again and to have the gumption and the resilience and the tenacity to be able to do that. That's what I've been hearing from both of you as you speak. And maybe it's partly to do with how you've used your ability to communicate both with humour and the most extraordinary seriousness. But what I hear is resilience. And actually, even when you're not back, you somehow find the resources to continue, which is inspiring for people because I think it's quite easy when things

are very difficult or you feel it's a conflictual environment to want to withdraw. I want to stay with family for a moment because conversations with parents can be some of the hardest and often the caring responsibilities with older parents and discussions around them. It can often fall to women.

Here's a message from a listener. This is Ruth who said, explaining to my mother that she could not return home from hospital and that her days of independent living were over that she needed to move directly to residential care. Any of these issues of caring for elderly parents can be very difficult.

Helen, I know you lost your mum a couple of years ago. There were conversations she didn't want to have before she died. No, she didn't want to talk about death and she didn't want to die. She kept saying, oh, no, it'll be fine. Oh, you know, I've got this and that sorted. And I always wanted to talk to her about her funeral. And she would say, I've told the vicar. And that was the end of the conversation.

She shut it down. I was like, okay, well, okay, that's the funeral arrangements. And so even that, and I remember after she died, I went to the vicar and said, right, so the hymns and the prayers. And then she said, oh no, your mother never contacted me. I was like, oh gosh, we have to make that all up. But I remember just in the last couple of weeks before she died, she actually brought up difficult conversations that we'd never had about her own mother. She'd always told me her mother was an alcoholic. But all these conversations came up that she shared.

And they were the most precious moments. And I suddenly understood why she was like the way she was. And I was really grateful just to be able to sit there and listen to her, let her direct the conversation because I always thought, oh, I knew she was dying. And I thought, well, I've got to have these big conversations. But actually it was the small, tiny conversations that meant the most to me. And yeah, but it was, you know, as I explained before,

she was quite conflict avoidance. So to still allow her to have those conversations. And again, it was the right context. It wasn't going to happen any other time. It sort of came to us then. I'm thinking also people listening to Helen, like Ruth as well, who got in touch, about how to have difficult conversations

when it's somebody you're caring for who's either ill or maybe coming to their end of their life as well. Any thoughts on that, Gabrielle? Yeah. I mean, it might not be the resolutional outcome that you want. Maybe her mother didn't want to go into a resolution. residential setting. But I suppose what matters here is to show that you're doing it from love and the love will stay alive and stay strong. And it doesn't in any way undermine some of the

transitions that need to happen. Because I think underneath everything, we need to know we are capable of love and being loved. And when there's a difficult conversation, it's quite easy to imagine that you're no longer lovable. So holding on to that is really important. The other thing with your mum, it's a very beautiful story. But it did leave me thinking, what would have happened if you'd known that a few years ago? Might have that affected your relationship. It brought a beautiful intimacy at the end. But it could have even, for a number of years, brought another kind of closeness if you'd understood that about her. I think Vicky's probably going to have something to say on this, because the last time we met, actually,

you were on to speak about the documentary you'd made about your dad's alcoholism. And I remember you saying how difficult that it was to talk about and you'd kept it a secret from people. But I'm wondering, what did it mean when that conversation, difficult conversation that was avoided was finally opened up? I think it was an incredibly liberating moment for all of what.

I grew up understanding very little about my dad's illness, but I understood enough to know that it was a secret and you didn't talk to anyone about it and you pretended like everything was fine. And I suppose because of that, there was an element of shame that came with it which fuelled my misunderstanding as I got older

and ultimately my quite complicated relationship with alcohol as well. And it wasn't until I sort of I reached my late 20s, early 30s, where I started to worry about, you know, my relationship with alcohol and whether there was a huge genetic element to addiction and if I'd been fair to me dad, you know, if I'd been what he needed in so many moments

through the course of his addiction, I feel like there was a vulnerability to me dad. You know, normally I'm quite direct and quite sure. strong, at least I can be. But with him, I always fell short. I always fell short. I just knew he didn't want to be this version of himself. So I didn't want to make it worse by holding them accountable and making them feel guilty. I think you bring up something really interesting, which would be curious for Gabrielle's take on this. How do you talk to people with addiction? Because that is a different circumstance completely. Yes. And you've used the word shame twice. And you

are so right because often people become very defensive because they feel shame. I'm actually an ex-probation officer, so it's not unfamiliar territory to you. You've lived a life. Oh, I'm losing my thought now. Shame, addiction. Yeah. You certainly start with empathy. At your right of the enormous vulnerability.

And you really have to get a sense of, is there a way I can help or support you at this point? Can we help you get some treatments? Is AA irrelevant? Whatever. But then if you absolutely not getting through. And sometimes people's defences are so strong when they've got addiction and they're not ready to make those changes. I suppose you are faced with what does this mean for family life. And so the whole question about what limits, what boundaries do you set becomes a big question, but not to be unlikely. Do it with really so many conversations with people who care about and love because of the consequences.

We've covered quite a bit of ground with Helen Thorn and Vicki Paterson. Thank you both so much. You're going to stay with us, as is Gabrielle. I do want to say also if you've been affected by some of the issues we've been discussing, you can. find support and help on the BBC action line. You're listening to BBC Women's Hour on this bank holiday Monday and I'm hearing about how women can lean into difficult conversations. We're not live today but you can share your thoughts on social media.

I want to move on to a different sphere where we can have sometimes difficult conversations. That's work. This can make even the most confident among us feel a bit tongue-tied. Maybe you want to ask for a pay rise. Maybe you have to give feedback. Maybe you need to manage conflict or say no without sounding awkward or defensive. The stakes can feel high when professionalism, reputation, livelihood can be on the line and all wrapped up together. Well, two people who are very used to having these difficult work conversations on a daily basis are

Izzy Obeng, MBE, an entrepreneur, executive coach and CEO of Founder Vine. She joins us down the line from Accra in Ghana. Hello, Izzy. Hello, thank you for having me. And we have Sophie Baker, a qualified social worker who spent over 20 years working within child protection and safeguarding. Hi, Sophie. Hello. Izzy, how can asking for things from your boss, like a pay raise, for example, still be one of the most difficult conversations for women to have?

So I've been running a company for over a decade now. And in that time, I think I've had probably over sort of 50. 50, 60-odd conversations about pay rises, performance management, all those things. And I think one thing that I find over and over again, particularly as women, is that there's a tendency not to separate your sense of self and your sense of self-worth from a conversation about your job and how much you think you deserve. And I think one thing that I think more women need to do, more people need to do is to say, hey, this isn't a conversation about who I am or, you know, what I'm good at, what I'm bad at. I'm actually coming to the table with evidence that says,

you know, this is the market rate for my job at the moment. This is the contribution I've made for the organization. And based on that, this is what I think I should be earning. You know, earlier I was hearing Vicky talking about the difficulties in not separating your emotion, and we were talking about emotional regulation. I think the same happens at work. We spend so much time at work and so much of our personality, you know, comes into who we are at work,

separating it out, seeing work as a system and yourself as a system as well and being able to say, hey, this is what I need. I think it's so important. It's not personal, it's business. I hear what you're saying. Take the emotion out of it.

Okay, so asking for a raise, you're doing a great job. There's some things to think about. But what about this conversation having to tell somebody that they're fired? How do you go about that? It's tough even now. I think about some of the more difficult firings that I've done, and even resignation conversations.

And I think that when you're having a conversation with someone about poor performance or a lack of fit, it's so important that you're not kind of killing them with your kindness. And, you know, particularly if you're... Explain that. Explain that a bit more. Yeah. So I remember reading this book ages ago called Radical Kander,

and they were talking about ruinous empathy to this idea that sometimes you think you're helping someone by not addressing the issues that you're facing with them or that something's not quite going, right? But what you're creating instead is the kind of feedback debt, which over the time is kind of growing and growing and growing. And so sometimes the kindness thing you could do is to act of clarity as a business owner. You know, this is what the business needs. This is where your performance has been.

And I think for me, what I've made sure to do throughout my career is to always make sure I know that I'm treating that person with integrity. I'm respecting them. And I'm doing a kind of doing due process. So we're having the conversation as early as possible. I'm giving plenty of opportunities to correct the behavior. I'm investing in a person. And then you just kind of give yourself a point where you say, actually,

it's actually not good for this person to continue in this role. And it's not good for the organization to have this person continuing into this role. And if you feel like you've done everything to that point and you're having the conversation with someone, the best thing you can do is to be clear. And if you have to exit that person,

as much as possible communication-wise, I think it's really important to let people define how they're leaving. So shape the communication, you know, shape the comms around their departure. You know, no one needs to know the details of it. And that way that person's left with their dignity, left with respect. They can go onto a role that is actually a benefit for them as well. It's interesting. You use the word dignity there.

I want to read a message that I got from a listener. Years ago, I was tasked with a difficult conversation when I became a trainee in a shop. I was 19 and in my first week surrounded by very experienced staff. The store manager pulled me aside. There'd been an ongoing issue with one of the team, a lovely lady in her 60s,

but she'd quite severe body odour and no one had managed to address it. And somehow this became my first mission. In the end, I found a way around it. I arranged for her to see the store doctor framed as a routine medical check and the doctor could gently raise the subject in a more appropriate, dignified way.

It taught me that difficult conversation aren't just about what you say, they're about how you protect someone's dignity while still dealing with the issue. Issey, how would you have handled something like that? It is a tricky situation, I think, as a business owner, because on one hand, you're wanting to do the right thing and address something that is affecting other colleagues and that also the person may not be aware of, but if it comes to their attention, they can do something about. So on one end, but on the other end, you need to think about the potential impact of not having that conversation sort of legally. You know, I've heard instances from other business owners

of, you know, a person taking someone to an employment tribunal based on discrimination after a very similar thing around kind of body odor and the impacts of someone at work. In that case it wasn't handled in the best way. I think there was something about, you know, buying a kind of beautiful toiletry set for the person, which probably wasn't the best way to do it. But I think not talking and yes, not directly addressing it, but instead trying to find a workaround, which actually can be quite offensive to the person, if not done correctly. So what I would have done in that case is probably quite similar to see whether I can get the person to self-disclose, whether there are any underlying reasons there that are causing that challenge

and kind of working with them on addressing them. If they don't self-disclosed, then finding a kind of trusted professional, a doctor is good in this case to see if they can take that conversation forward. And of course you bring up as well there are, it can be a legal minefield, I suppose, as well, within the world of work when it comes to having difficult conversations. Izzy, one last question for you. You're in Accra in Ghana currently on maternity leave. Congratulations. But you also work there.

Were there cultural differences that you need to think of there or in other places that you worked around the world? I think it's been a real learning journey for me working across different continents. We work in the US in Ghana and in the UK. And culturally, for example, it's incredibly tough to have difficult conversations, I think across African countries, I think particularly as women.

There's a feeling of kind of being quite modest and respectful. It's ingrained from school, church, from upbringing. And so you don't talk back to your seniors, including your boss at work. And as you know, in the UK is a bit different. You know, you're showing you're ready for progression if you're able to kind of challenge your managers. And so I think being able to build a culture of, you know, autonomy and a culture. of people being respected for their opinion has been a really big thing for us here. It's nice building that kind of cross-cultural working between our UK team and our Ghana team

and in my maternity leave as well, just picking up on something Vicky said about fertility. So I had my own fertility journey, both in Ghana and the UK, and one of the difficult conversations for me as a boss who had no maternity leave policy, had no one to be. to talk to you about what I was going through was actually how difficult those journeys are for women in the workplace. And I think I've come back in wanting to build an organisation and a culture where women can actually feel comfortable talking about the journey about their own fertility-wise if they want to start a family and building an organisation in all the locations that we work in that's actually very kind of like open and respectful of those kinds of

conversation so you're not doing it in silence and I can be more present in that journey for colleagues as well. I want to go to another job. Sophie, you have 20 years as a social worker. When I say difficult conversations, I'm sure you must have had so many. Many, many difficult conversations over the years. And I think for me, before I even sort of talk about some of those conversations, the way in which I tend to try and frame conversations is around them being challenging or even kind of courageous rather than difficult. Courageous? Courageous.

Because if we can reframe the language around conversations, we're moving, sort of leading into the intention of a courageous conversation rather than the focus of discomfort, which kind of, when I think about difficult conversations, I just feel discomfort. Whereas when I think about courage, I know that's the kind of intention behind why I want to talk about a particular subject with someone.

I'm working with. I should be specific as well when speaking to you about some of these conversations that you've had to have. It could be removing children from their parents. It could be tackling sexual abuse or issues of grooming. Yes, all of those things. I think in my career, I've worked with children that are in need of protection. It might be that we're worried about risk of abuse from women.

within the home or outside the home being groomed or exploited online, children that looked after in foster placements or residential settings and having those direct conversations with children about matters that really matter, as well as conversations with parents and other professionals. Do you ever get used to having those conversations? I guess you get used to having the conversations, but I'm not sure if they get any easier. Uh-huh.

I think, I guess with experience, And I talk a little bit about having something called like a professional script. So if I know that I'm going to speak to a child because they want to report some harm or I'm speaking to a parent about perhaps the way that their alcoholism is impacting on their care of their children, it might be that if I've done it before and it's worked well, I might want to use a similar language or a similar tone of voice and prepare carefully if I can, knowing the aim of the conversation, what do I want to get out of it?

And what do I want to give them the opportunity to get out of it as well? Because I would imagine in a conversation like the one you've described there, there is an inherent power imbalance with a child. And I'm just wondering how that comes into the difficult conversations as well.

Yes. There certainly are power imbalances for sure. our sort of safeguarding and child protection legislation, as well as the systems kind of within which we work, can really create power imbalances. The majority of the work that we do is with parental consent, but there are times when worries are at such a level that we have to involve ourselves within a family on a compulsory level.

And that can, for families, feel like the professionals hold all the cards. And also just that sort of complexity is caught up with the fact that we work with many families that have experienced oppression already. Maybe because of race or socio-economic background or culture. So we have to be really, really mindful. And from my perspective, I like to name it. I like to be very open and transparent with those that I work with around the fact that it might feel like there's an imbalance. And similar to what Gabrielle was talking about in terms of empathy.

you know, my role is to keep that child, the rights and the welfare of the child, is by paramount concern. What can we do together to keep that child safe or to make the changes that you need to make? What can we do together? And when you say name it, you're talking about that. You would say to the child, this may feel like I'm telling you what to do or that I'm in charge, something like that? Exactly.

Not just the child, but with grown-ups too. Okay. As part of my introduction, I would often talk very concerned. clearly about what my role is, but name the fact that there may be some power in balance, where it might feel like there's power in balance, and my absolute aim to work collaboratively and together to try to reduce risk to children. How do you handle the emotional aspect of being immersed in those issues? I think it's a shame when social workers get to the point.

where they don't feel the emotions that those kinds of conversations should evoke in what I call like normal people. We have really complex, challenging, emotional topics that we talk about day in, day out. And we are only human. So for me, it's absolutely right

that challenging conversations feel hard because it means that we care about the safety and wellbeing of children. And so we have, as a local authority social worker, We have supervision at least once a month where we can talk to our supervisors about how we feel about those challenging conversation. And good supervision helps social workers to really reflect on the impact of those conversations. And we certainly shouldn't feel ashamed.

I think when I work with newly qualified social workers, they can often feel a bit frightened to own up to the fact that stuff feels really hard. so good supervision gives permission to allow social workers to explore some of the barriers of getting challenging conversations right so that we can work together to keep children safe. It's interesting. I think Gabrielle as well,

I'm thinking you're in very serious situations at times when it comes to mediation in the Middle East, for example. And as Sophie's talking about there, that the setting has to be correct to be able to have those conversations and for everybody to be honest about this is not going to be easy. I think setting is absolutely crucial, how to make it as safe as you can. And I actually found what was, I was listening very carefully to what you both said,

ideas like radical candor, a courage. I also thought you mustn't destroy hope. Even if you're working with someone where you're taking the child away, the idea that you're going to work collaboratively with a parent, maybe it can change or be different. It's exactly the same when you're working in conflict resolution in Middle East, where you're working with people who've had terrible traumas, there's been war, there's been the most enormous amount of suffering.

And one of the key things is you have to create a safe enough space, both to listen to the pain and trauma, and then open up the space, how could things look different? where are the possibilities? I think it's so interesting hearing you speak about that and I'm probably thinking about international settings and conflicts, but actually everything you said could apply to some of the families that Sophie has worked with as well.

So really interesting. I want to thank Sophie Baker and also Izzy Obing, MBE, for giving us lots to think about there as well when it comes to difficult conversations. You know, they can also be the drivers of storytelling. They can shift relationships, expose fault lines, propel a plot forward. And in fiction, though, as we know,

it often results in drama rather than a calm or constructive conversation. Well, joining me to discuss is a romance writer and publisher, Talia Hibbert. Her books include the bestseller, Get a Life, Chloe Brown. Talia, great to have you with us. Hi.

Is it difficult conversation really at the heart of a good book? I think it often is, especially in what I like to think of as pink books, which for me is any sort of feminine coded text that focuses on things like joy, love, desire, happy endings. I think in those stories about character development and about emotions and relationships, difficult conversations play a key function in understanding

who we're reading about, what they're going through, and how they get to their sort of pot of gold at the end of the emotional rainbow. Do you want to give me an example? example or two? Absolutely. I think, first of all, as an author in my own books, I tend to write at least one main character, probably two, but if it is just one, it's always the heroine because I like difficult women. You like Vicky Patterson. That's what you call herself at the beginning.

We all like Vicky Patterson, let's be honest. So I write these characters, especially difficult women who have some sort of wound in their past that they have to overcome and usually like people in real life they've developed coping mechanisms defense mechanisms there's maybe lies that they tell themselves about who they are who other people are how the world works and they have to overcome that to have healthy relationships so in my most recent release a girl like her the heroine has dealt with intimate partner violence and she lives in a small town and everybody believes him nobody believes her nobody likes her and she's isolated herself and her defence mechanism is, you know, what's the point? And so difficult conversations in that book

become a driver for her when it comes to learning that the point is she deserves to defend herself and respect herself. And there are people out there who will listen to her and who will love her. So every difficult conversation in that book is a step forward in her journey of sort of self-actualization. I'm just thinking, Talia, as you're speaking, I'm going back to that word, courageous conversations, right? that your protagonist is having. Yes, absolutely. And I think also people have been talking about, you know, Izzy mentioned dignity, which was really interesting.

Gabrielle's talked about turning the temperature down and self-regulating. And the thing about difficult conversations in entertainment is we don't really want to do any of that. I'm definitely, you know, at the keyboard thinking, how can I make everything work? I think everything more dramatic. I want tears, I want drama. But, you know, I think a key role of difficult conversations in this kind of media as well is an opportunity for characters to prove who they are at their worst, especially in romantic stories between men and women,

which is what I predominantly write. We can't ignore the gender dynamic there. I think how a man treats a woman he cares about when he has absolutely lost his temper is a really important indicator for their relationship moving forward. Do you think, Talia, what we read or see in books or film or TV, influence us or change the way we have conversations in our own lives? I do. I really do. I like to think of romance especially.

I'm such a romance nerd. I'm just, you know, that's me all over and bringing it up constantly. But I like to think of romance as a blueprint. for, you know, the stories we tell ourselves about who does and doesn't deserve a happily ever after, who does and doesn't deserve to be a main character. So I do think fiction influences us. As I was thinking about this, I was also wondering, does art reflect life or vice versa? Because there is such a popularity of scripted reality TV shows that maybe some of those tropes

or the ways of speaking within them have made their way into our dated. conversations, maybe some fake outrage, some main character energy, people doubling down on their positions, not giving an inch. I was even reading a phrase that I was not familiar with, which is doing it for the plot, meaning taking risks or making spontaneous decisions solely to make your life more interesting, adventurous or entertaining. I get your thoughts on that, Talia. Oh, absolutely. I really think that phenomenon is even more common now that we have. have social media. A great example is Queen Charlotte, a Bridgeton show, Bridgeton spin off on Netflix. There is an argument in that show that has gone viral. It's all over social media. I like to think

of it as the do you love me argument. The backstory is king and queen, arranged marriage, they have fallen in love, but the king has some mental health issues that in his time period, it's a historical drama. He doesn't understand. And that causes him to isolate himself, push people away because he's sort of afraid of himself. But the queen, Charlotte, is in love with him. She doesn't care about any of that. She doesn't want to be pushed away. And when he tries to send her away, she says, no, George. And this is a hilarious moment that people have recreated all over social media. And she says, I will not go. You cannot send me away. And he tries to give her all these sort of false reasons as to why they can't be together. And everything he says, she simply repeats,

do you love me? And it's a very dramatic argument because she's just hammering at him. It's a perfect illustration of what a stubborn character she is and it proves the compatibility because he is a person about doubts and she is a person who's all about pushing away the immaterial and getting to the core of the situation, which is that they are in love. But in reality, if you are not a main character in a romance designed to end happily, is that really a healthy way to communicate to simply repeat your point like a hammer? Probably not. Well, you know, I have Helen Thorne and Vicki Patterson here with me.

Both immersed in popular culture, I would say. Do you think, I'll start with you, Vicky, and then come to you, Helen? Are there more drama kings and queens among us? I'm sorry, I watched Queen Charlotte and I really loved her. In particular, I loved that argument. I felt like it was so passionate and excited. exciting and maybe I'm a little bit toxic. I don't know.

I loved it. I do think we've always been guilty from the dawn of time of assuming like, well, you're the main character in your play, aren't you? And you just assume everyone else is like a secondary one. So you don't necessarily have a minute to think about anyone else's because we are also consumed in myself. So I do think we've everyone's always had a bit of main character. We have a name for it now, Helen. Oh, absolutely. And like when I fell in love like three years after my divorce and I started sharing that I'd found a good one, a nice one, a nice one. You do have a nice one. He's very nice. I did feel like I was in my own rom-com. I'd like I'd found a really nice man and I was excited to share that. And there was part of me where we went to Prague on a mini break and I shared that. But the joy that other people got from that was something kind of special. I mean, there is. We've talked about difficult conversations when, you know, when they are.

generally unpleasant things to talk about as being the majority of our conversation thus far. But as you talk about love, all these romantics around the table and joining us down the line as well. The first time you say to somebody that you love them going back to Queen Charlotte, that's a difficult conversation. That is something. I talk about that in my new book, actually.

It took like seven months before I said, I love you to my new partner. And it felt like the most important thing I'd ever said because it was after heartbreak and betrayal and I was about to trust a person for the very first time. And I remember talking to friends and going, should I do it now? You know, it's all about this context

because it is about being incredibly, yeah, courageous because you're saying, you know, love me for who I am. And, you know, you have these sort of moments. But it happened to me via a voice note. And he just went, I love you, baby. I was like, I love you too. And we haven't stopped saying it since. It's been lovely, but it takes so much to love again.

I've had to have much more bigger, harder conversations in this relationship because I've seen the other side of what a relationship can look like when you don't have those big conversations and now I'm much better going, okay, I need to tell you this. And also having a fear that if it does, if anything happens, I'm okay. And I think that another thing about difficult conversations is it's about self-belief, self-value and what I deserve. Such a fascinating conversation. I hope it helps you think a little about how.

to have some of those difficult conversations, whether it's about something pleasant or unpleasant. We're ending on love. Thank you to all of my guests. Gabrielle Rifkind, Talia Hibbert, Sophie Baker, Izzy O'Beng, MBE, Helen Thorn and Vicki Patterson. And I'll be back with you again tomorrow at 10 a.m. Thanks so much for listening.

That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. If you've got a scrolling problem, then this is the podcast for you. It's called Top Comment with me Matt Shea. And me, Marianna's. We both investigate social media for a living. Whether it's disinformation, conspiracy theories, internet culture, memes.

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