Woman's Hour - How we can age healthily? Race and gender in the workplace, NI abortion, Comedian Twayna Mayne

Episode Date: October 18, 2019

How we can age healthily? Today we look at the impact of our diet. How important is it to eat the right thing to live a longer healthier life? If the Northern Ireland Assembly is not restored by Monday October 21st, then abortion will become legal in Ulster in line with the rest of the UK. It’s part of the Northern Ireland Bill which was passed in Parliament over the summer. A power-sharing government hasn’t been restored yet, although of course there's still time. We talk to Dr Alyson Hunter, a consultant obstetrician working at the Royal Jubilee Maternity Hospital in Belfast about the new guidelines which have already been drawn up for healthcare professionals.Are race and gender a double disadvantage in the workplace? Over 85% of BAME women leaders who took part in a study by the management consultancy the Diversity Practice say yes. How should the issue be tackled?Plus we talk to comedian Twayna Mayne about her new series for BBC Sounds and Radio 4 which addresses among other things her upbringing as a transracial adoptee and how it’s affected her search for her Black British identity. Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Beverley PurcellGuest; Dr Aylson Hunter Guest; Twayna Mayne Guest; Professor Kay-Tee Khaw Guest; Professor Linda Partridge Guest; Carol Campayne. Guest; Yvonne Coghill OBE

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. It is. Hello, good morning. Welcome to the programme. This morning, could your diet help you live better for longer? That's one of our talking points this morning. If you're black or Asian and female and in the British workplace in the 21st century, what are your chances of getting promotion? That's another topic today.

And we'll talk too to the comedian Twana Main about transracial adoption. And your thoughts are welcome, of course, at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram, or you can email us via the website bbc.co.uk slash woman's hour. Well, as it stands, abortion will be decriminalised in Northern Ireland on Monday. It is part of the Northern Ireland Bill passed in Parliament over the summer. Now, we do also know that the Northern Ireland Assembly is going to meet at Stormont on Monday. Could this be significant? Could this possibly derail anything?

Let's have a quick word with Chris Page, who is BBC News Ireland correspondent. He's in Belfast. I should say we'll also talk in a moment to a consultant obstetrician based in Belfast. But Chris, first of all, good morning to you, Chris. Morning, Jane. Just explain then what is happening at Stormont on Monday, because at the moment the Northern Ireland Assembly hasn't been sitting for some time has it? Yes that's right, on Monday it'll be the first time the Northern Ireland Assembly will have sat for two and a half years since the power sharing devolved government collapsed. Now back in July in Westminster MPs passed a law which means as you've just said that the law on abortion in Northern Ireland will be liberalised this week. The one proviso on that was that if the devolved government came back, well, then that law on Westminster would fall and it would be down to the Northern Ireland Assembly

to decide what to do on abortion law. But there's no sign of that happening. The Assembly is going to come together on Monday because members of the Assembly who want to keep the current law have put together a petition. So the Speaker of the Assembly is duty-bound to call back the Assembly. There's a debate on the order paper at the moment which says that basically the Assembly believes

that it is the proper place for abortion to be discussed. But whether or not the Assembly members actually even get that far as having that debate is unclear at the moment. It could be a very short sitting. And ultimately, it's not going to change the course of the law because for the Westminster law to fall, in other words, for Stormont to take back control of abortion law, it'll mean ministers need to be appointed.

And because there's no political agreement between the parties, that's not going to happen. Fears have been expressed by some campaigners, notably the Labour MP Stella Creasy, that the change in the abortion laws in Northern Ireland might be impacted by a possible offer to the DUP from the Prime Minister in order to get their support for the Brexit deal. They might be offered something here. But is there any chance of that? In a word, no. The DUP are firmly in favour of keeping the law as it is at the moment. In Northern Ireland presently, abortion is only available in circumstances

where there's a serious and long-term risk to a woman's physical or mental health, so much more restrictive than in the rest of the UK. The DUP alone of the main storm parties want to retain that law it certainly is an important issue for the dup and particularly their grassroots members they've come under some pressure from campaign groups uh on it as well to drop their red lines and just forget about any other issues preventing storming coming back just get back into government to get back control of abortion law. However, when it comes to the present issues in Westminster around Brexit, the DUP's fundamental political principle is about protecting the union

between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. That will trump just about anything else. So I don't think any offer to them on abortion or anything else, for example, extra money for Northern Ireland would make any difference. They're going to continue to oppose the government's new Brexit deal. And we should also mention, of course, that same-sex marriage becomes possible in Northern Ireland from Monday. Yes, that's right.

The legislation that was passed in Westminster covered these two social issues, abortion and same-sex marriage. So if there's no return of the Stormont Executive by midnight on Monday, as I understand it, and that is, well, nobody is taking seriously that possibility at the moment,

then both abortion laws will be liberalised and same-sex marriage will be legalised in Northern Ireland come midnight on Monday. OK, that brings us up to date. Really appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed, Chris. Chris Page, who is BBC News Ireland correspondent and sitting in the same studio is Dr Alison Hunter, who's a consultant obstetrician based in Belfast.

And Alison, I understand you're also a member of the group Doctors for Choice. Is that correct? I am, yes. OK, well, we've asked you to come on the programme, really, just to explain to us how things are going to change. So tell us, what is going to happen if a woman goes to her GP on Tuesday morning and she's pregnant and she's in Belfast and she'd like an abortion? What will happen? Well, first of all, I just think it's fitting to be on Women's Law to talk about a topic that is extremely important for women.

Many women in Northern Ireland who now feel that next week they will have the same rights regarding choice as women in the rest of the UK regarding the reproductive health. So what does this mean in practicality? Well from the Tuesday the 22nd of October until March the 31st is actually a time of a consultation period where various groups including medical professionals not just obstetricians gynecologists also family planning doctors gps and ethos and also other stakeholders including of course politicians will be involved on how to plan for a service in terms of just turning up at your gp and looking for abortion medication on tuesday there is a plan in place this it's not as simple as a individual doctor being able to give medication because there's also regulations with pharmacy etc so in this interim period the plan is that women will be given a number for a central booking service where they can then be directed to

abortion services in the mainland UK and funding will be in place so that the women will not have to pay anything for their treatments. Right. It's important you've made clear that travel will still be involved. Yes, so travel will be involved in this interim period for some women, yes. Could they, apart from, I know Liverpool is a place that some people are going to, have been going to for many, many years, presumably also the Republic of Liverpool is a place that some people are going to, have been going to for many, many years, presumably also the Republic of Ireland is a possibility. Well, the Republic of Ireland would be a possibility for women, but again, I'm unsure, and that would be part of the discussion, I would imagine, how would we possibly work with abortion services in the Republic of

Ireland. But that is, again, something for the consultation. And after March of 2020 what then? Well in March of 2020 we certainly doctors like myself Doctors for Choice really look on this as a great opportunity for us to work with all the stakeholders to really try and develop a really first-class reproductive health service. We have actually been lagging quite behind in terms of things like sex education. We would like to see compulsory, really good sex education starting in schools, really excellent family planning services,

and also termination would be part of that service. So that is really what we want to see, not just that termination will be available to women here locally in Northern Ireland, that would be an excellent and safe service, but that we can actually work right from the grassroots up so that we can develop a sexual health service where termination and unwanted pregnancy should be an unlikely event

rather than, you know, more common. There must be, though, people in the medical professions, not just doctors, who do object to the changes. What about them? Well, of course, abortion is obviously a hugely emotive subject for everyone, including doctors and nurses and all healthcare professionals. So conscientious objection is obviously part of that. And people that do have a conscientious objection,

they can opt out of the actually direct care, for example, prescribing pills, being involved in any procedures that are involved around abortion so for example my own regulatory body the royal college of obstetricians the general medical council they're very clear guidelines there about what we would have to do and that would also be for midwives for nurses for gps etc so we would advise all people that do have a conscientious objection to look to those bodies for advice. How would you sum up the mood because you sound well it's difficult to sound joyful in this circumstance because nobody has an abortion lightly under any circumstances but

how do you regard what is likely to happen over the next couple of days? Well I think you're absolutely right. I mean, my feeling about this as a doctor is that I'm here to help people in difficult circumstances. And part of my job as an obstetrician, gynaecologist and a consultant in fetal medicine is to help people who are going through very difficult times regarding their pregnancy and of course the word joyful is wrong but I personally feel that now I'll be able to perform my job much better for all women because for example in fetal medicine if we see somebody with a very serious or fatal fetal abnormality it has been extremely difficult from our own point of view not alone not to say heartbreaking for women when we tell them that their baby may not survive or have a really life-limiting condition, that we cannot help them

and that they have to travel away. And until very recently, they've also had to fund that themselves. So my feeling is, one, that I will be able to perform my doctor, my role as a doctor in this area, much better. So it is a time of, I think, thankfulness, really, and gratitude that finally we have got to this place for the women in Northern Ireland. Appreciate you coming on the programme.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Dr Alison Hunter is a consultant obstetrician working at the Royal Jubilee Maternity Hospital in Belfast. And as she says, she's also a member of Doctors for Choice. Any thoughts on that? At BBC Women's Hour on Twitter or Instagram. Now, are you BAME, British female and in the 21st century workplace? Well, how do you feel about it? How is it treating you? What do you think

your prospects are? We're told that over 85% of BAME women leaders who took part in a study by the management consultancy, the diversity practice, say that being female and BAME continues to put them at a double disadvantage. Let's talk to Carol Campaign, director of the diversity practice, and the lead researcher on a quite a weighty new study, which I've got with me here, different women, different places too. It's the second of these reports, isn't it, Carol? It is. The first was in 2007, but really great to be here today. Right, well, it's good to have you. Also alongside you, Yvonne Coghill, OBE,

the woman who delights in one of the longest titles I have ever come across. I'm going to read every single syllable. Director of the NHS Workforce Race Equality Standard Implementation Team and Deputy President of the Royal College of Nursing. Welcome Yvonne. Good morning. And you also pointed out earlier that you have a silver medal for life-saving. I certainly do. Which is more than my bronze. So that was firmly put in my place earlier I was. Not before time then you would say. So Carol first of all this is the second report and depressingly things appear to have got slightly worse. Yes. And I think, you know, when we look at the lived experiences of different women who are black, Asian and ethnically diverse women,

we do see that in terms of their organisational life, that things have not improved as I said we did this 10 years ago our certainly our expectation was that things would definitely be in the upper you know the upward trajectory and that just was you know wasn't hasn't wasn't the case but what has changed is different women's response to the organisational context within which you know they're working so that that is one positive that I want to take away. Do you mean that BAME women are more likely to report when they come up against problems? I think there's something about reporting. There's equally something even more important about how grounded, how resilient, how clear different women are with regards to who they are and what they bring, the value that they bring to their organisations. There's a lot more clarity around that.

And I think equally, you know, they're really owning their voice and they're stating very clearly who they are, what their rights are, how they want to be treated. And as I said, the contribution that they do make to both the organisations they work for and, you know, the communities that they live in. Now this is about unashamedly about leaders isn't it this report as was your previous one. Yvonne you are at the top of your game but it wasn't easy to get there just just briefly if you can

explain your your career. I'm not sure that I am at the top of my game but I said you are you said I am so I must be. I'm a nurse by background and I think that I've been in the NHS for the last 42 years of my life and it has been a really fabulous and wonderful career I think but there have been issues for me as a black woman in the NHS. I originally wanted to be a director of nursing and I went for five director of nursing posts after getting two master's degrees and lots of experience. So you've done all the right things? I did all the right things because people told me that this is what you need to do in order to become a director of nursing and went for those five posts and got none of them and what that did to my self-esteem, what that did to my

confidence was it made me feel inadequate and made me feel bad. And I think the reason why I am where I am today is as a consequence of the resilience that my mother built into me. My mother was formidable. And I think that she would have been distraught if I had just packed up and gone home and, you know. Yeah. In the interest of disclosure, I've got to say that I'm a non-exec director of an NHS trust myself, so I'm not unaware of some of the issues that you've mentioned there. And you mentioned the influence of your mum. Carol, it's worth saying that teachers, you draw attention to teachers in this report, disappointingly, only 19% of those that participated in the survey said that they got real positive, encouraging messages from, you know, from their teachers. And they were more likely told what they couldn't do than what they could do. And it was not just teachers, it was also career advisors as well. And we know that every, you know, every lesson that a child has shapes her life. And so from that point of view,

you know, teachers do play quite a critical role. And when we look at teachers in the United Kingdom, we know that a large proportion of them are white women. And so, you know, there's something important there about the dynamics and the relationship between teachers and certainly different girls, as we call them. Yvonne, when you went for a job as, say, Director of Nursing, who interviewed you? Describe the people on the panel.

Well, it was very interesting because it was white women, invariably. It was a nursing world and we have quite a few nurses in the NHS from white backgrounds at senior levels. Who get to the very top. Who get to the very, very top. And we've had initiatives in the NHS for some time, actually, helping women to get to be the best that they could be. But it's some women, not all women.

And I always say that. So you're sitting behind a desk with three or four white people, usually, asking you all sorts of questions in a way that you have to respond, that suits them, that they understand. OK, so this is where we really come up against it, don't we, Carol? Because is it, do we play the game or do you change the rules of the game? What do you do? I mean, I think the kind of initial response to that is to try to play the game

because that's safer and there's a psychological safety in that. It's kind of a bit of a known quantity and at the same time it's become really important to change the rules of the game. I think that's why we're here today is that the rules of the game have changed for you know the 30% club have more recently indicated that they've reached their target. 903 women or so are now on C350 boards. The question I ask is, who are those women? And I kind of took it upon myself to try and find out. And lo and behold, the question was never asked about the demographic profile of those women.

And so we know that the 30% represents white women. So where are black Asian and ethnically diverse women who represent 70 percent of the female population are non-white go on if on it's globally globally globally yeah globally not this country yes and i think you know the nhs is is a one of the the biggest organisations in the world and actually I believe one of the best organisations but that's another story and we have as it stands at the moment 435,000 nurses who are qualified in the NHS yet we only have 10 directors of nursing from black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds, 10 out that number. And we have 1.4 million people working in our NHS. We only have eight chief executives from black and ethnic minority backgrounds.

And that's not unusual because what we know is that across the private sector and the public sector, as Carol has already said, that is a familiar picture. Yes, and let's not leave the BBC out of this conversation either. No, we can't. Well, Karen, I know you can say whatever you want to say about... No, absolutely. I mean, I think we see the very same experiences

for black Asian and ethnic minority women being played out very publicly in the BBC. I mean, we're all familiar with the recent debacle of Naga. But the extent to which we really know I mean, we're all familiar with the recent debacle of Naga. But the extent to which we really know what her lived experience actually is, in terms of being a woman from an ethnic minority background, wasn't even told. And so I think it's very clear that the BBC, as a public body, has the very, very same issues that the the NHS the public and the private sector have and until we begin to have honest conversations about race racism and its impact

then I think we'll still be here in 10 years time. Taking it to a really practical level I know that in the NHS BA ME employees are more likely to face disciplinary proceedings. Now, why might that be, Yvonne? I think it's two reasons. I think that the system that we have called the NHS is perfectly designed to give us exactly what we've got. But I also think there's a lot of fear. And talking to my white counterparts, what they say is that it's easier to formalize a situation if there is a black and ethnic minority person because they are fearful that that individual might and I quote

I'm putting quote marks here play the race card that they will say you're only picking on me because so as a consequence of that fear they will go to the HR department we're assuming that the manager is is white invariably the manager is manager is white based on the structures that we have. And that individual will then go to the HR department and then it escalates because it becomes formal. The black and ethnic minority person becomes very anxious. They go to their union and then we get all the issues that you get with a formal process. And we know that black and ethnic minority people are more likely to go through the formal disciplinary processes.

And we also know that the sanctions on those people are much more severe than they are on their white counterparts. So there's a fear thing and a lack of understanding about other and difference. And unless we have the conversations, as Carol has quite rightly pointed out, about us working together for the benefit of all of our patients, we're not going to be able to crack this

really tricky and thorny nut. And I have to say that the NHS is the only organisation that's doing what we are doing, which is looking at the workforce race equality standard and comparing the experience of black and ethnic minority staff with white staff and actually trying to close the gap on that right so rather than knocking the nhs which i don't think any of the three of us actually want to do we need to acknowledge that they are doing some important work that perhaps other people haven't even got close to starting absolutely

carol are there any let's let's try to end on a relatively positive note where are the bright spots here um you know the bright spots of spots rather very clear to me the bright spots are you know different women are black asian and minority ethnic women there's something really important about learning how we as women respond to this very murky you know context that that we're in. You know, if I want to learn and understand how do you actually respond and lead in those environments, I will absolutely look at a different woman because she tells me what not just resilience looks like, but what exception, what being excellent looks like,

because a lot of different women say, I can't afford to just be average. I've got to be absolutely exceptional at what I do Well it appears to be Yvonne that when you did you did get a director of nursing job didn't you? No No you never did

No no So this is the first director of nursing post I've had in 42 years and I got that three years ago Right so can I ask why did it suddenly go right for you then? Was it just that you were so 42 years Yeah you were so persistent or had you were so persistent?

Or had you changed your attitude? What was it? It's a long story. Can it be 20 seconds long? 20 seconds. It was to do with a gentleman called Nigel Crisp, Lord Crisp as if. Yeah, that's what I was kind of trying to get to. You had someone. A mentor. A mentor. Somebody who believed in me. Somebody who believed that I could do it

and trusted in me to be able to do it and gave me the support and the help that I needed to be able to to be myself and to be all that I knew I could be yeah I mean the trouble is not everybody has a Nigel um no not everybody not everybody has a Nigel and I think I hadn't said that but you know Nigels can be important but I think equally I think equally different women you know bring bring and have everything that they need to have in order to excel. And I think that organisations and those that have the privilege of working with them need to recognise that, acknowledge that, acknowledge that too. Thank you both very much. I really appreciate it. And I'm really interested in people's real life experiences here.

If this is you, whether you work in the NHS or elsewhere in the contemporary British workplace, let us know how things are. And if you are a Nigel or a Nigella and you know that you should perhaps be doing more to reach out and help, tell us about that as well. Tell us what you have done, if you have indeed done exactly that. Thank you both very much, Yvonne and Carol. Good to meet you.

Thank you. Next week on the programme, the stories of three women whose partners are veterans with PTSD. They week on the program the stories of three women whose partners are veterans with ptsd they describe on the program what it's like living alongside their partners ptsd often for decades and how it's had an impact on their own mental health on relationships and on self-confidence and how they can try to get help for themselves and their partners that's next week also thursday of next week this is really important, Jenny's going to be taking your calls on the

issue of getting your children vaccinated. So vaccinations on Women's Hour next week. I've got to say, I don't know why you wouldn't get your children vaccinated, but anyway, that's something that you can discuss on Thursday of next week. Now, we've been discussing on the programme during

the course of the week how to live well for longer. Jenny talked about the importance of socialisation and the importance of exercise. And today we're talking diet. The statistics are, well, women do live longer than men still. Average for women is 82 years. Average for men is 79.

But the bad news is that on average, women have 19 years of relative poor health in old age. Men have just 16. This is from Public Health England, that figure. So what about exercise? What can we do? Professor Linda Partridge is very much our woman. She's a geneticist from University College London, an expert in aging. Welcome to the program, Linda. Thank you. And Katie Corr is Emeritus Professor at Cambridge. She ran an enormous study into the impact of diet

on the lives of older people in Europe. It was called EPIC, appropriately. Your focus was on the city of Norwich. Very briefly, Katie, why did you pick on Norwich? Well, it was Norwich and Norfolk, people living in Norfolk. And we chose it because we wanted to study a real living, healthy population, general community in UK. And they were very stable because people like staying in Norfolk and they don't move away. And if we want to study people for 30 years, we need a population that we can follow up for a long time.

Yes, indeed. Norwich is a lovely place. I hope they're blushing in Norwich this morning. OK, Linda, what is ageing? What is it? It's a series of things that go wrong after puberty. So damage to genes, the way they're packed in cells, the way the proteins are handled in cells, signaling stem cells become unresponsive to signals to divide. We get inflamed.

There's a gradual increase in immune system activity during ageing it's a whole series of things that go wrong and interact with each other to produce the infirmities of old age Right, and whatever the cosmetic industry might tell us you cannot stop ageing, but you can make an impact upon it There are various interventions that can really lessen its effects and keep particularly animals healthy for longer before they die, because that's what we're interested in here,

is not making people live longer. It's trying to reduce that nasty period that you mentioned at the end of life. And it's not always nasty. Some people are very lucky. They stay completely healthy until they die, but others are much less lucky, and frailty and all the horrible age-related diseases kick in. So it's that that we want to stop.

And can you make a difference in terms of your diet, however old you are? So say if you own up to the fact that your diet isn't wonderfully healthy and you happen to be 75, is it worth changing even at 75? Yes, I think it's always worth changing. I mean, the indications are that a lifelong good diet is better than just fixing things in old age, but fixing things in old age is certainly better than not fixing them. And one size doesn't fit all anyway.

Old people should probably eat a somewhat different diet from young people. What, a smaller amount? Basically a higher amount of protein, a relative amount of protein in the diet to try to combat muscle weakness and frailty. Okay. Katie, we're always of protein in the diet to try to combat muscle weakness and frailty. Okay. Katie, we're always being told the Mediterranean diet is the thing to aim for,

whatever that means. I essentially interpret that as olive oil. Is that right? No, I think the interpretation of what the Mediterranean diet varies with very, very different studies. The main components, I think, are common to many diets, not just the Mediterranean, which is a diet that's high in plant foods, high in legumes, nuts, as well as more health oil profile, not necessarily olive oil, but also other less saturated fats. And what were they doing in Norwich? Well, the reason we chose Norwich is because these are people who are living their everyday life, so completely health, normal behaviours. And yet we've identified very big differences in life expectancy, particularly quality of life,

within this population in Norwich, in people who had very different lifestyles. Well, go on. Who got it right then and what were they eating? Well, the main thing is that people who were eating high intake of plant foods, five servings of fruit and vegetables a day, had a much longer life expectancy. But this was a healthy life expectancy. But this was combined with other lifestyle factors such as non-smoking, being physically active. And when we say physically active, we also don't mean going to the gym or running every day. It's people who just do more cycling, stand in their occupation. So it's everyday activity,

climb more stairs a day, are less sedentary. And if people are not inactive and eat five servings of fruit and vegetables a day, have moderate alcohol intake and also not smoke, they have a difference in life expectancy of about 14 years. So even within the relatively homogenous population of Norfolk, there was a 14 year difference in life expectancy in people who are practising none of these healthy life behaviours and people who are practising all four of them. When you put it like that, that is a colossal difference, isn't it? Yes. Does that surprise you, Katie?

Not really, because if we look at the international variations in human populations, there's such huge differences in healthy life expectancy in different populations. Even within England and Wales and the United Kingdom, if you live in a good area that is indicated by a postcode that's not socially deprived, you live half the number of years with poor life compared to if you live in the bottom 10% of areas which are very highly deprived. And that's not magic. It's people are doing different things in these different areas. So between 12 years lived with poor life expectancy and 26 in a poor area. Linda, what about the psychological impact of so-called comfort food? Because there are foods that comfort me and there are foods that comfort me and there

are foods I eat because I vaguely know they're good for me. What do we do about that? Well I think an awful lot of this actually goes to the food industry because the vast majority of us do eat convenience food if not comfort food so most people don't take raw ingredients and cook a meal they buy a ready-made meal and they don't always know what's in it so i think labeling is good now and people should look at the labels on what they're eating and if you make the decision to you know have your unhappy comfort snack then you know that's one thing but not being aware that it's unhealthy is another and i think people really do need to read the labels what is processed food if you have the if you have the time I guess some people will say well I don't have the time to do that kind of thing but if you just describe to me the physiological impact

of a terrible diet well it's different things for different nutrients so if you eat too much protein um there's a high risk of cancer so you should keep protein down in the diet to the necessary minimum because it causes an increase in the circulating levels of something called insulin-like growth factor 1 which stimulates growth and cell division and is therefore potentially carcinogenic and epidemiological studies show a high association

between high IGF levels and cancer and between a high protein diet and high IGF levels and cancer and between a high protein diet and high IGF levels so it's a bit of a smoking gun yes but we're trying to put the emphasis on living well for longer there will be people listening you think well I'm going to die of something and I don't care about that but you're saying you can you can positively impact your chances of dying more quickly quite frankly frankly, by eating a sensible diet. Staying healthy for longer. So, for instance, animal studies.

If you dietally restrict, calorically restrict an animal, a rat, a mouse or even a rhesus monkey. You starve it. You make it eat less than it would choose to eat if you just let it get on with it. You get a very broad spectrum improvement in health during ageing. I mean, different systems, brain, bone, immune system, less cardiovascular disease, less diabetes, less cancer. So it's very broad spectrum. And sometimes you really can't tell what the restricted animals die of. With the controls, you can usually pin it on something. But the calorically restricted ones often just

i have to say it's not a great sell i'm just thinking of passing my last couple of years restricting my diet well that's why people are interested in milder intervention so for instance it looks as though when you eat is very important just restricting eating to a certain period of hours of the day not not snacking continuously. Well, that's more bearable. But you do get, I'm not going to mention the name of the actress who specialises in all sorts of crazed health plans that include basically fasting and really keeping yourself as so-called lean as possible. Katie, nobody wants to encourage that, do they?

No, absolutely not. And I think the evidence on caloric restriction has to be very much tempered with what was the nature of the caloric restriction. Because if you actually look at the human evidence, we can't look at diet in isolation from physical activity. And the humans that do the best are the ones who eat a lot, but are also very physically active. So it's a balance between energy in and energy out. And I think the animal studies are also telling us they've not had entirely the same results. They've had two very long term studies of caloric restriction in rhesus monkeys, one of which showed life extension,

the other one which did not. And I think one of the differences is because with one set of monkeys, they were giving very high sugar intakes. when they caloric restricted them they reduced the sugar intake and it may be that it's not just what the amount of food but what the food is and so i think there's good advice that free sugars you know there's lots of sugar in food but but free sugars is probably an important thing to reduce and also salt and salt and these are very high in processed foods so that's why we suggest that fresh foods are good because ultra-processed foods lose a lot of good nutrients and put in a lot of not such good nutrients. I want to put you both on the spot.

What is the affordable meal of champions, Katie? Well, diets that are high in lentils. No, no, I want a meal for tonight. Okay. Nuts, lentils, vegetables. Green vegetables. Gravy.uts, lentils, vegetables. Green vegetables. Gravy. Gravy, yes, fine.

Balance, no. The people in Norfolk were eating their everyday diets and they were just on everyday diets. Yeah. And they were fine. Go on. Can you just please me, please, Linda, with some... I could suggest you add a bit of fish.

Yeah. A little bit of olive oil. Is it getting better? Yes, it is. I was feeling hungry. I'm not feeling so hungry now, actually. Well, the Mediterranean diet was 31 ounces, one extra spoon of nuts a day,

associated with lower heart disease. All right, OK. It does make perfect sense. Honestly, it does. Thank you both very much, Linda Partridge and Katie Corr. And if you are prepared, what is your meal of champions? I think I'd like to hear about that, actually. What are people prepared to have tonight that they know will do them good

and that is affordable? I mean, we can't all have fillet steak and the things we know probably are delicious, but they're not for everybody, are they, all the time? Thank you both very much. Thank you. Now, the comedian Twana Mayne is here. Welcome to the programme, Twana. Just move a little nearer the microphone.

Good morning. How are you? I'm good, thanks. How are you? Very well, thank you. Now, you are about to host a new Radio 4 show. It's also going to be a podcast and it's called Twana Mayne, Black Woman but you also have your own podcast.

Yes. Which is called... Logo Parenters Podcast. Which is also available. Yes. Now, your program for radio 4 is about transracial adoption yes we'll talk about it in a minute but just to give people an idea here is a very quick clip here we go not only is my mum white she's also a school teacher

life can be so cruel along the way she introduced us to all the things she knew and loved we went on lots of protest marches. Teachers love them. We listened to folk music, and then at the weekend, she took us to the theatre and lots of museums. I soon realised that being middle class, you're allowed a certain amount of freedom to be creative and to find yourself, hence stand-up comedy. I'm pretty sure I would have not been afforded that same luxury

if I'd been brought up by first-generation immigrant black parents like lots of my friends. So what I've had is white privilege, and I can't knock it. It's been amazing. Toan O'Mean, in action, you are saying some quite uncomfortable things. It's National Adoption Week. Yes.

And, well, you are basically giving us your view, from your perspective, as a black woman growing up with a white mum. Yes. You were adopted at the age of? Fourteen. Right. I was quite late. But I'd been with my mum since I was three. So she fostered us first, and then a decision was made

and we were adopted. You and your older brothers? Older brothers. And your little brother? I've got a younger brother. He went to another family because we're too many kids for one family. So at what age were you aware that your experience was a peculiar one? About three. Yeah. Yeah. It was immediately obvious. Yeah. You do tell a gag in the stand-up show that you lost your mum. And just explain that story. We were in North Devon, because that's where my grandparents lived.

And we lost our mum one day. Found a couple of policemen and explained that we couldn't find our mum. But we just didn't tell the police that our mum was a white woman. So they tried to give us away to a large Asian family who were passing at the same time. Yeah. That really happened? Yes. Okay, right. I hope the Devon police have, well, we don't know whether they're listening or not.

They might be. So you, obviously, your mum, did she make much of this? What did she say to you about it? About being different race? Yeah, did she acknowledge it? Was it something you discussed? Yeah, yeah. Yes, we did we're not disgusted like that but we knew that we were in care we knew that we were in care at the time with a woman who was not our not the same race so it was blatantly obvious

um so we just had conversations about just being children in care and also just what involves being in care so kind of like you going to have to see a social worker, just that kind of stuff. It was kind of, that was part of our childhood. So none of that stuff was kept from us. And the fact that your mother was white and your grandparents were white, was that something you thought about, worried about?

Not worried about, but I was, you kind you kind of in the household you're just a family it's once you go outside your house is then it becomes blatantly obvious that this is a different dynamic to what most people are used to so people stare um when you're at school people kind of ask questions not your group of friends because they kind of might know. So complete strangers will ask, who's that white woman picking you up from school? It's like, it's my mum. It's like, why is she white? Because she was born like that.

You know what I mean? You just kind of have to find ways to deal with constant questions and staring. Is there, are there black children adopted, sorry, are there white children adopted by black families routinely in this country? No. And that's sort of the problem, isn't it? I don't know if that's the problem. Well, it's one of the problems.

Adoption is a bit, it's very complicated. Well, it is. And I wonder whether you know what you're doing. You're challenging a lot of somewhat saccharine assumptions made by people like me. I, like everybody else, love the stories of successful adoptions. And I think mine is a successful adoption. I wouldn't say that mine isn't a successful adoption. I think it is.

But I'm also somebody who's been adopted and would rather people talk about adoption in a less sentimental way. So what was the most difficult aspect of your adoption for you? The adoption bit's the easy bit, to be honest. The adoption bit is easy. I think it's the fact that the difficult part of our childhood was being the life that we had that led us to be taken into care. That's the difficult part of childhood. So the adoption bit is a very nice, tidy, sort of legal arrangement,

sort of, for most children, is quite young. Ours just happened to be quite late because my mum started fostering us and then it was, shall we make this an official arrangement? And we were kind of, yes, because it takes a while to adopt children. So it came later. And was that delay partly because your mum,

your adoptive mum, was concerned about the fact that you were black and she was white? Did that play a part in her thinking? I'm not sure. I've not actually asked her that, to be honest. I think it was more of we spent a few years going in and out of care and when the decision was made that we would no longer go back to our birth mum, we would be staying with our foster mum, we would stay with her,

and then you just kind of settle into just normal routine of life of, like, being children in care, having social workers, talking about being wards of court and all of whatever that is. I mean, it doesn't matter how wonderful your adoptive parent is, no-one can take away what led you to be in that situation. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's, I think I'd rather people sort of, and also think about birth families. I think it's really, adoption is not just about these little children

who turn up and who can live in your family. There's like a whole, there's loads of other relationships that I think need to be looked at when we're talking about adoption. And the rest of us need to be prepared to hear this other side of the story, don't we? Yeah, definitely. And you are somebody who's trying to put that right. Yeah, so basically, should I talk about my own little side project? Go on.

Right, so I've got a podcast called Loco Parentis Podcast. And basically I started that because whenever we talk about children who've been adopted or kids who've been in care, it's always negative. So whenever we talk about, whenever there's stories of children in care, it's usually a child has ended up dead. And it's like, well, thousands of children go through care every year and most don't die. So that's a success story. That's Twana Main. Her podcast is called Twana Main Black Woman. It's on BBC Sounds from the 23rd of October and it's on Radiobc sounds from the 23rd of october and it's on radio 4 from november the

6th now to some of your thoughts on what was discussed today leslie says i went to an exhibition of women's firsts at new walk museum in leicester this week and it was great to see so many women in the position of first however i was saddened to see very few BAME women. In my humble opinion, this is equally reflected in the number of BAME leaders. And a listener called Yvonne wants to comment on our contributor, Yvonne Coghill. Yvonne says, Yvonne was so articulate and described such a depressing situation with such equanimity and hope. Only 10 directors of nursing are from BAME backgrounds. The situation isn't really improving and mentorship is key. Those able to, please make that offer today.

Yeah, it would be good to hear from people who, like Nigel Crisp, who helped Yvonne, did actually look to someone they thought was really worthy of promotion and help them get them there. Elissa says, who has identified that the majority of people don't cook? I'm interested because I only know people who cook from fresh ingredients and we're all on below the minimum wage. So how do we know this is true? Is it from supermarket sales? It's a good question. I don't actually know where we get the information from i would imagine elissa that you are probably in a minority in that you only know

people who cook from fresh ingredients because there are a heck of a lot of people who would say with some justification that they don't have the time to cook a freshly prepared meal so-called from scratch when they get in from work at six o'clock at night and they've got three hungry kids to feed. I don't know is the answer to that. It would be interesting to find out, I guess. Stephen says, there's an element with food of you're damned if you do

and you're damned if you don't. Personally, I'd let the endorphins flow and enjoy my chocolate. Well, I'm with you, Stephen. I've got to say there are things I could give up. I think I could pretty much give up alcohol i could not give up chocolate uh mick says honestly it isn't difficult to eat healthily last night i made sea bass seven veg roasted with fennel seed no sugars and no labels yes mick um sea bass isn't the cheapest fish um yeah anyway um layla

says how can you say healthy eating will keep us alive for longer without saying we're consuming so much meat and dairy that we're killing the planet if we don't deal with this young people today won't get a chance to die of old age. Andrew says he's currently making a vat of egg and lentil curry with coconut and pickled lime whilst listening to Woman's Hour. He's my kind of guy. Delicious and cheap, he says. Yes, I mean, it does sound, it does sound quite nice. Can I just say the combination of egg and lentil hasn't exactly set my juices flowing um no i i don't know egg and lentil can you send us the recipe andrew and i'll make it at home and then i'll be able to judge it um thank you to everybody who took part today um weekend woman's hour is with you tomorrow

afternoon two minutes past four if you're the sort of person who still listens to linear radio if you're a podcast person then you'll catch up later in this form on the Woman's Hour weekend podcast. But tomorrow we are going to be featuring the item we did earlier in the week, the items actually about faecal incontinence. You'll hear from Kirsty and Sophie about their experiences, from Sarah Webb, who's a specialist midwife in perineal trauma, Oliver Warren, who's a colorectal surgeon, and Sue Armand, who was a pelvic, still is a pelvic physiotherapist. They answer some of my very basic questions, but that is one of those conversations that no other program on radio or podcast form would ever consider doing. And I was

really proud to do it actually, because I honestly think it was an important conversation that I really hope, fingers crossed, will have helped some women listening. I really do hope so. Join us tomorrow if you can. And of course, throughout the week, however you listen on podcast or on the radio. Hello. I just wanted to tell you about my new podcast. It's called Classical Fix.

And it's basically me, Clemmie Burton-Hill, each week talking to a massive music fan. I mix them a classical playlist. They have a listen, they come in, and we just see where the conversation goes. If you like to give classical music a go, but you haven't got a clue where to start, this is where you start. To subscribe, go to BBC Sounds

and search for Classical Fix. Now then, as you were. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.