Woman's Hour - HPV home-testing kits, Women-run hospitality map, Digital wardrobe apps

Episode Date: August 25, 2026

Women who have missed a cervical screening appointment in England are to be offered HPV self-testing kits by the NHS. Over the next year, nearly four million women will receive invites on the NHS App or via text message, email or letter to order a free kit to use at home. The aim is to encourage more women to complete their potentially lifesaving screening to detect HPV, which can increase the risk of cervical cancer. Figures show that around a third of women who are eligible for cervical cancer screening have not taken up the offer recently. Dr Sue Mann, National Clinical Director for Women's Health in England and a consultant in Sexual and Reproductive Health, joins Nuala McGovern to discuss.Chef Sally Abe, who owns the restaurant The Pem, and Kayla Lawrie, a producer with social media food influencers TopJaw, have launched a map of women-owned hospitality businesses. What began with 350 restaurants, pubs, cafés and bakeries has now grown to more than 1,000 venues across the UK. They explain to Nuala what they hope to achieve.Around 7,500 women are diagnosed with ovarian cancer every year, with the majority aged over 50. But around 120 of those women are between 15 and 24. Enlli Thompson was just 19 when a growth was found on one of her ovaries. Since then, she's undergone chemotherapy, egg freezing, a hysterectomy and medically induced menopause. Enlli joins Nuala, alongside GP Charlotte Badescu, who was also diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2021 when she was 31.Stephanie Brown from the University of Hull has spent the past year as Woman's Hour's researcher in residence on the scheme that Radio 4 runs with the Arts and Humanities Research Council. She studies the history of crime and, as part of our summer series exploring some of the latest research into women's lives past and present, she shares new findings about the punishment of women in medieval England.Is your wardrobe a clutter-free haven of beautifully coordinated outfits? Or is it more a chaotic jumble of jumpers, jeans and everything in between? Could an app be the answer? Some apps allow users to catalogue what they own, visualise outfits and experiment with their style. Nuala is joined by Nicole Glennon, Deputy Editor of the Irish Examiner Weekend magazine, and Dion Terrelonge, fashion psychologist and practitioner.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

Hello, this is Newellamoghren, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Well, in a moment, we will hear why HPV self-testing kits will be offered to some women by the NHS. You might have heard a little about it in the news bulletin there. Also this hour, where are all the women-owned bars and restaurants? Well, they may be just under your nose. My guests have followed their noses and map them across the UK. Plus, you maybe heard that we only wear 20.

20% of our clothes, 80% of the time. Now, if that rings true for you, could an app help you mix it up so that you actually wear more of what you own? We're going to hear how new apps work exactly to get you to do that. But I also would like this morning your wardrobe confessions. What are you hanging on to that you never wear?

Maybe it doesn't fit. Maybe it was expensive. Maybe it has sentimental value. One producer this morning confessed to a gorgeous pink velvet suit that is hanging in her wardrobe with no future use in sight. It doesn't fit, but she can't toss it either because it's just too pretty. Does that sound familiar?

Well, what is it for you? And why is it still there? Tell me this morning, text the program 84844 on social media we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, the number is 0-3-700-100-444. And another way to get in touch

on most smart speakers. You can say, Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. Now, also a little later today, the remarkable Entley Thompson, who was diagnosed with ovarian cancer at 19 after a long and painful journey to get her symptoms taken seriously. She's hoping to change things

so that this doesn't happen to other young women. We will hear from her. But let me begin first. Women who have missed a cervical screening appointment in England are to be offered HPV self-testing kits by the NHS. So over the next year, nearly 4 million will receive invites on the NHS app or via text message, could be email or letter, to order a free kit to use at home. The idea is to encourage more women to complete their potentially life-saving screening

to detect HPV, which can, if you have it, increase the risk of cervical cancer. figures show around a third of women who are eligible for cervical cancer screening have not taken up that offer recently. So let's hear a little bit more about the decision to offer these kits. I'm joined by Dr. Sue Mann, National Clinical Director for Women's Health for England

and a consultant in sexual and reproductive health. Great to have you back with us, Doctor. Maybe we'll start with what HPV is exactly. Yes, so morning, everybody. So HPV is a really, really common infection. and many people have it. Often it doesn't cause any symptoms at all, but we do know that it is one factor that can encourage the development of a cervical cancer later in life.

So it's really important that we find out if women are harboring these viruses so that we can test them and make sure they're not at risk going forward. So these home HPV testing kits, NHS is calling them, a game changer? Why is there in need for them? Yes, I think it is a game changer. So if you think about the plan to eradicate cervical cancer by 2040, which is the goal, there's a sort of three-pronged strategy to that, and this is the third. So we encourage all boys and girls in school or young men and women to have their HPV vaccine, and that happens around 12 or 13. So that will significantly reduce HPV infections. We then invite every woman between 25 and 64 for the cervical screening

test. This happens every five years and we would really encourage in spite of this that women still come forward for those tests because that's definitely the best way to pick up cervical abnormalities. But we do know, as you said, that round third of women don't come from their tests and there's all sorts of reasons why not. And these are the women that we want to target now because they remain at risk. They might have HPV that they don't know about. So by sending these swabs to their homes, they'll be able to do a very simple test, send it off, and then we'll be able to pick up the HPV infection, and then they'll be invited for further tests of positive. So of course, it's reassuring if they don't have it, but then if they do, then they will be invited in. Okay, I have a lot

questions. The test at home, what does that entail exactly for a woman to do? Yes. So this is a swab, which is a tiny cotton bud really that will arrive by post and it requires inserting that a little way into the vagina. So it's much easier than a tampon but much smaller than a tampon and should be relatively straightforward for someone to do. Obviously, if they require help with that, then best thing to do is to go to your GP and see if you can get some support with that. But mainly, I think women will find it quite straightforward. Okay. With the regular cervical screening, it's a more invasive procedure. Can you tell me the difference? That's a little swab that you say you can do at home.

Instead, if you go to your GP, what happens? Yes, so what happens is that we use something called a speculum, which is an instrument for want of a better word. That makes it sound a bit cold, but it is something that goes inside the vagina to have a direct look at the cervix, which you probably know is tucked inside the vagina, so it's probably around or several centimeters up the vagina. So we like to take a look at it, and then we take a small sample from the cervix, and we send it off for HPV testing. and if we find HPV, we then look at the cells to check there are no abnormalities. Now, with this self-taken swab, we'll do the HPV bit of it, but if it was showing HPV infection,

you would still need to have the test actually from the cervix. I understand that, but I suppose some women might be asking, why can I not just do the swab and go for part B of getting cells from the cervix at a later date if in fact HPV has shown up? Yes, I understand that. And I think that what we do know is that it may well be better to take the cells directly, the infection sampling directly from the cervix itself. We don't have enough evidence yet to say that the self-taken swab is as good as.

This may come later, but at the moment we need to wait for the evidence to support that that is as good. So that's why I say at the beginning we would really encourage women to come forward. And even if you find it very difficult, there are lots of things that we can do. I mean, I regularly see women in my clinic who find it extremely uncomfortable and I do understand why. And there are lots of ways that we can make that easier by having someone in the room, by taking it very slowly, by taking it at the pace of the woman and, you know, actually being able to stop at any point that the woman wants to. So I would encourage you to talk to your GP or your practice nurse or your sexual health clinic to see how this can be made easier.

Just so I understand correctly, is it that the swab won't always pick up HPV that women are being instructed to go for a cervical screening if they can? So we know that the swab is very good at picking up HPV, but we don't know whether it is as good as the direct smear from the cervix. I understand. You talk about trying to, I suppose, gather women up who would not previously have come forward. How do you understand some of the barriers that are in the way? What are they? Yes, so I think that there are very many barriers.

And I think the biggest one is about often, you know, we hear, don't we, that women don't feel listened to. They don't feel, you know, that the care that they get often is, you know, is sympathetic as they want. So we're working on that very importantly. I think sometimes women have experienced specific traumas. Sometimes that might be sexual trauma. Sometimes it might just be they might have some pain around that area or they've had previous experiences with a procedure that has really, really put them off. And so, yeah, so that can be very, very difficult,

and I completely understand that. But then there's another group of women who I think we haven't maybe got the message out as well as we can do about why cervical screening is so important. And I think really the take-home is that, you know, it's a very, very simple test to prevent a fairly unusual but devastating condition from happening. So it's before that condition actually takes hold. What are some of the symptoms that women can experience? So of cervical cancer. Yes, or I suppose HPV either, if there are any.

Yes. So commonly people will. with HPV virus can have warts that they can see genital warts, but that's only some strange of HPV, and actually, in fact, the ones that commonly cause changes in the cervix are not those ones. HV itself, otherwise, is not symptomatic, but I would encourage people who have abnormal bleeding, particularly after they have sex, that's where women get bleeding when they have abnormalities on the cervix, to come forward and be checked. So this is for women who don't have symptoms. If you do have symptoms that you're worried about, then do go to your GP or your practice

nurse and get them checked out. Do you have any concerns that, and we've outlined here, the differences between the swab and actually going in clinic for a cervical screening? Do you worry at all that home testing could lead people to think that they don't need to go to their GP in the same way? Yes, I think that's a valid concern and I really hope it won't because of course, this mail-out depends on you waiting for right until after the screening interval is over before you get invited. So it means that there's a significant delay. And as I say, the disadvantage is around, one, visualising the cervix, so we can reassure someone that actually it looks normal, and two, doing that better test. And three, actually, that someone who has positive HPV swab will

still need to have their cervix visualised. Indeed. One question here. If you've had a hysterectomy, is there any advantage to having a HPV swab? Does this virus harm you in any other way than an increased risk in cervical cancer? So we do know that HPV is associated with other rare cancers. For example, it has been associated with things like anal cancers, but they're very uncommon in women. So if you've had a hysterectomy, then you shouldn't need the swab. However, many people who have had a hysterectomy have had their cervix left behind. It's what we call a subtotal hysterectomy. And then you really must continue with that cervical screening.

With the screening as well as the swab. I know Jenny was just zoning in on that. I mentioned this is England where the home tests are being rolled out. Will it be on offer to women in other parts of the UK? So obviously I'm the national centre centre centre centre centre centre centre to England. So I'm proud to say that I think we're the first to roll it out based on the recommendations of our national screening committee. So the research findings are there and I imagine though I can't speak for other nations will come on board. Thank you very much for speaking to us. That's Dr. Summan, National Clinical Director for Women's Health for England.

But if anything you've heard in this interview has concerned you, you should of course approach your GP. Thanks very much to Sue. Thanks for your messages that are coming in. I was talking about your wardrobe confessions this morning. What's in there that you just can't get rid of, even though it doesn't fit? We're going to talk about apps a little bit later that can help you streamline your wardrobe,

see what's in there, use better combinations together. I can't bring myself to throw out my suits and ties, even though it's been over 10 years since I was working in an office. They represent who I was for so many years. Another, I still have my 1985 ball gown that my mother bought for me at the first end of year university bowl. It's beautiful. I felt like a princess in it.

And I can still get into it, but I doubt I'll ever wear it in public again. Although I don't think I'll ever part with it either. That's Jennifer. Oh, here's one. I have a full-length hudded blue velvet cape a la Scottish widows. My mother made it for me when I was at university in Durham. We walked everywhere after formals and it was cold. I was there in 1970 to 73.

And no, I don't wear it often, but when I do, it's magnificent. I will never get rid of it. Fortunately, it's synthetic. So no moths have attacked it. Thanks to your messages 848444 if you'd like to get in touch. Right, let us turn to the question. Where are all the female-owned hospitality businesses? It's a question my next guest wanted to answer.

It came after what was called a Me Too movement in the industry. last year. Chef, Sally Abbe, who owns the restaurant Teal and Kayla Lurie, a producer with the social media food influencers, Topjaw, decided to put women on the map by launching an actual map of women-owned hospitality businesses in July. So what began with 350 restaurants, pubs, cafes and bakeries has now grown to more than a thousand venues across the UK. You're both very welcome this morning, Sally and Kayla. Sally, let me start with you. So you spearheaded a 10-point pledge to improve working conditions and representation for women in hospitality.

Tell me about those pledges and how it fits in with your map. Yeah, I mean, it all rolls into one really. The pledge was, again, something that came after our sort of Me Too movement last year and we made the pledge because we really need people to get on board with making a change in the industry. And give us a couple of those pledges that would be, I suppose, top of your list for those that are not familiar. So I think the most important one is just fairness and respect and for women to be treated equally and basically just be treated as though there's no difference between us in the workplace because that is the biggest problem. you know, sexual harassment and degradation are the sort of two biggest things that

unfortunately affect us in this industry. Have you seen changes, though, of things moving in the correct way? I think so, yeah, you know, I really hope so. I think that there are a huge number of restaurants and restaurateurs that are really trying to make waves and make difference in the industry, which is super, super refreshing to see. But unfortunately, there are still restaurants where the problem is very. remain. So you got together with Kayla and created this map. I found it on your Instagram

profiles. A little link, Kayla. Is that the best place to find it? Right now, yes. That's where it lives and breathes is on sally and I's profiles. We have ambitions to build a website and to put it in a place that's incredibly accessible and very searchable. But right now that's where you can find it. Right. And I will say the names again, which are Sally Abe, A-B-E, with an accent, and also Kayla Lowry, L-A-W-R-I-E. But does it have a name the map, Kayla? No, we really went back and forth when we were designing this together about naming it. And every kind of name that we gave it felt like it wasn't really encapsulating the importance of the work. Okay. And listen, I have the most fantastic army of women listening right now, so I'll throw it out to them 8484.84.

if you think you have a name for what Kayla is going to describe, what is it? This is a map that is a reflection of all of the female-owned businesses across the UK. So whether that is a singular owner, whether that is a partnership or a team, any female founders out there that own restaurants, bars, pubs, cafes, B&Bs, hotels, maybe a catering business even, anything in that hospitality sector, we want to showcase the breadth and the diversity that exists. in that industry in a really tangible and interactive map. So I had a good runaround on the map and I was really surprised how many were under my nose

that I didn't even realise, the female owned. Really fascinating, you begin to look at businesses in a different way. It has been definitely traditionally such a male dominated industry. How has the response been, Sally, to the map? To be honest, it's been completely overwhelming. You know, we've been talking about this for a long time. working on it, but obviously we've all been quite busy with lives. And, you know, I opened a restaurant recently, so life sometimes gets in the way, doesn't it? But we finally got there in July

and launched it. And we did a joint post on Instagram. And within a couple of days, it had had over a quarter of a million views, which, you know, it just shows the appetite for it and shows that people do really want to support female-owned businesses. And also that female owners want to network and make friends with each other and that was fantastic to see. It's interesting you say that because often whenever I've spoken to female entrepreneurs here, for whatever the industry, they say the networking aspect is sometimes what is missing compared to, we say, male-owned businesses, for example. Kayla, why do you think it's such a challenge for women in hospitality to have that networking

and visibility that Sally is talking about? Absolutely. I think there's a couple of different ones. I think a big part of that is imposter syndrome. I think recognition of their success and wanting to seek out those and others can really be a blocker personally, I think. I think the other opportunity that really exists is providing a space for them to network. You don't know who you don't know.

Yeah, well, this is it, I think, when you look at the map. Yeah, exactly. Like you were saying before, like people under your nose, like Sally and I have spoken to so many chefs and owners that didn't realize that the bar across the road happen to have a female founder as well or, you know, in their town there's multiple other cocktail bars

or cafes and bakeries and they're being able to reach out and connect with people just purely based on awareness more than anything, which I think, you know, there's power and information. What about Sally? You know, those that would say hospitality should be gender neutral in a sense that you shouldn't be looking

at the bar or the restaurant or whatever the venue may be under a female or male-owned moniker? Well, I'd say when we have equity, then that would be a fair statement. But until that point, it's not. You know, we live in a society where, well, a patriarchal society where generally men are favoured. And it's only from the chef perspective, 17% of all chefs that are women. So, you know, for me, it's very, very important to highlight those women that are out there because you can't be what you can't see.

So for all the young women coming through that want to be chefs, that want to be chefs, that want to be front of house, that want to be, you know, any roles in hospitality, those women need role models. So for me, it's incredibly important to highlight those women that are out there for the time being. So role models, one challenge, let's say. What else do you think, Sally, that women-owned businesses face, perhaps compared to others in the industry? I mean, look, to be honest, you know, the elephant in the room is always motherhood, right?

Like I think to run a business, it tends to be all-consuming, and it can be very, very difficult. I've got lots of friends there, mothers and business owners and chefs, and it's incredibly challenging. We need to do more to support them. And again, it comes back, for me, it comes back a lot to networking and showing support for each other. And one of the things that's been so amazing about this map is that we've been able to connect women in, you know, Bristol or Edinburgh, wherever it may be. and just I feel like just sharing stories and just sharing our experiences is a weight off our shoulders. So that's a really good place to start for me. What do you want, Kayla, this map to become?

Oh, that's a great question. I'll give Sally a second to think about it. That's a great question. I think there's a couple of different elements. One being providing a space for people that want to dine with intention to make those choices actively. So, you know, when you talk about allyship and being able to kind of make decisions or, you know, actions that really make an impact to women own businesses, I hope that the map serves as a smorgas board of choice. You know? And but, you know, beyond that, like we've spoken about community and these owners really being able to connect with each other and support each other.

But abundance of that and hub is more accessible. opportunities. So, you know, when you're talking about media or whether it's, you know, a brand is looking to run a pop-up or there's a festival that needs a chef, you know, it's quite often difficult to find female chefs or female owners that can contribute to these things. So providing a platform to really put a name to those businesses, I think, is a really valuable asset that we can provide. People often go with what has gone before, as we know. Were there any particular type of of businesses that were really well represented or really underrepresented. Sally, I'll start with you and come to Kayla.

Anything kind of strike you as you think about it? I mean, I think when we were going through, obviously we started with the 350 and then we got so many submissions when we launched it. There was so many bakeries and cafes that came through. And, you know, it's just phenomenal to see because some of these small places are like the backbone of communities. You know, there are places that people go to have a coffee or a cup of tea and a slice of cake and socialise. Maybe in an instance that they don't for the rest of the day.

So I think it's kind of for us, sort of singing those unsung heroes of local communities. And it's women that are doing that. And that's been really heartwarming to see. I think finding female-owned pubs. Female-owned pubs, yeah. Like, you know. It's a tough business at the moment, as we know. 100%.

Those businesses are struggling, but also, you know, I would say out of our categories that exist, female owned pubs was something I was really passionate about, like, diving into because they exist. And there were so many, and I was discovering so many across the UK that really, like, was heartwarming to see how many there were. And there were women out there that owned three or four pubs. And it was a difficult one to find, but once we got the ball rolling and finding those across the UK was really cool.

So if somebody wants to add their business or the business that they love that is owned by a woman, Sally, what do they do? So they can either go to my Instagram, which is Little Chef Sally, or Kayla's Instagram, which is Kayla Lurie. And basically, we both have a link in our profile. So you can click on that link and it will bring up the map. And then once you're in the map, there's a form to submit. So they can fill in that form and then we will add you ASAP. It's lovely. Just before I let you go, Chef Sop.

Sally, you know, I was looking at your Instagram and I was just thinking that heatwave that just happened, you were cooking a roast in 36 degree heat. What is that like? Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, we're launching Sunday roast at my restaurant on the 20th September. So

obviously we needed to do a little bit of promo before it. And unfortunately, that coincided with the hottest day of the year. So, yes, it was very hot, very sweaty but we all had a very delicious dinner that day. You see, still putting a smile and the good face on. Chef Sally Abe, who owns the restaurant, Teal.

Kayla Laurie is the producer with the social media food influencers top jaw, putting women on the map. Thanks so much to both of you for coming in. Government spokesperson says this excellent new tool will help put more women-owned businesses on the map. We're backing female entrepreneurs by tackling barriers and unlocking opportunities that will support their businesses and drive economic growth. The Invest in Women Task Force has secured over £635 million in funding. with 115 million invested across 22 deals so far. Oh, here we go.

I'd like to suggest a name for all the women-owned restaurants and businesses. I think it should be called plain old woman's own, own, just like the magazine used to be, and my name is Ellen Poole. Great, thank you, Alan. I work for an organisation that is a women's networking organisation, the Athena network.

Women-owned businesses in our membership is very connected, to each other, trained to network and enjoy development opportunities. So getting the word out there as well. Thanks for those messages, 8444.844, a lot coming in about your wardrobe as well, which I will get to just a little bit later this hour. I want to turn to ovarian cancer. Around 7,500 women are diagnosed with ovarian cancer every year, with the majority of them over 50 years of age.

But 120 of those women that will get that diagnosis are between 50,000. 15 and 24 years of age. My next guest was one of them. Enli, Thompson, was just 19, when a growth was found on one of her ovaries. Since then, she's undergone chemotherapy, egg freezing, a hysterectomy and medically induced menopause. Enli, however, says this whole experience has changed her life for the better. Good to have you with us, Enli. Good morning.

Lovely to have you with us. We're also joined by GP Charlotte Bidesco, who was also diagnosed with the ovarian cancer in 2021. She was in her 30s. They are both now. I'm happy to say cancer-free. But, Anthony, let me begin with you. Take us back to the beginning. When did you first notice that something was wrong?

I first noticed in March of 2024 that I wasn't right. And then I was going back and forth to the GP until October of 2024. That's when I went to A&E. And I was dismissed again there. So this is months that you're going back. to your GP. And what were you saying to them or what were they saying to you? I was presenting with some of the obvious ovarian cancer symptoms, but also some obvious gynaological issues as well. Obviously, ovarian cancer does have very, they're not very clear.

Right. Yeah. It can be anything. But yeah, I was presenting with a definite gynaecological issue and it was never investigated. So I was being dismissed with silly diagnoses until October of 2024 when I was told a week prior I might have appendicitis. So that's when I decided to go to A&E when I could not bear the pain anymore

a week later. And then I was dismissed again in A&E where I was told it was just a neuroinfection and I was discharged. It was then that I finally found found my voice and asked for a second opinion. And I saw a senior doctor who sent me for an instant CT scan. And they found a mast in my pelvic area, which was told to me in the waiting room of A&E. And I can't imagine what that must have been like. No, it was, it's a hard thing to hear

especially when you're exhausted from being in A&E and you don't have that privacy to kind of deal with that's such big of news. Yeah, of course. This is huge news. And also when you've been feeling so ill and going to so many doctors for so long, let me bring in Charlotte here. You know, Enli is telling us there about months that she went back to the GP trying to get a diagnosis.

Why do you think something like that could happen to Henley when she's speaking to doctors and trying to get this diagnosis. Yeah, I obviously can't comment on the individual clinical decision without knowing the full circumstances. But I do think that her story does highlight the challenges that we do face with ovarian cancer because it's particularly uncommon in someone as young as Eni

over 90% of women will be over the age of 45. When younger women do come with symptoms, even the typical symptoms of ovarian cancer, like pain in the tummy or bloating, there are a lot more common explanations that a GP might consider first in a younger woman. The other thing is that ovarian cancer symptoms, as you mentioned already, they can be vague and they can overlap with other common conditions like irritable bowel syndrome, urinary or digestive problems. But I think the learning point here is that when the symptoms seem persistent, unusual or new for the person, we do need to keep ovarian cancer

regardless of someone's age. And I suppose that just wasn't happening in this particular instance and that's why Enli is speaking out and wanting others to be aware. Enli, I understand that after you were diagnosed with cancer, you were then told you would need a hysterectomy

at such a young age. Yeah, so I got my official diagnosis a year late in March of 2025 and then it was then after my surgery and some investigations during surgery that they found the cancer had eventually spread to my womb. That was a big shock for, I think, everyone. Even my amazing surgeon did not expect for this to happen.

And even my medical team struggled to relay that information to me at such a young age. Because with the hysterectomy, of course, It's will you have children in the future and an immediate medically induced menopause? Yeah, so I will never be able to carry my own children so I had a radical hysterectomy, removed everything, my cervix, my ovaries, my womb. I underwent fertility treatment, which I did take a risk.

My cancer was homo-receptive, but I was given the go-ahead, thankfully, to go for one round of fertility observing treatments. And then I went straight into my second surgery, which was my hysterectomy, and then a month after my chemotherapy. You've been through so much. I'm so sorry you had to go through all that. And it takes great courage, really, to speak out then as well

to try and help other women, you know, to be aware of what you went through. You have spoken about going through menopause, also, I suppose, the fact of losing your hair. There's a lot of physical changes that were taking place. Yeah, so there was a lot of physical changes. I think, obviously, losing the hair was the most visible one. But the menopause, it's been a real struggle. Obviously, I only had a month in between my surgery and starting my chemotherapy.

And again, those symptoms overlap. So it's hard to differentiate between. between the menopause or the chemo side effect, and it's still hard now at such a young age to understand where these symptoms are coming from. Are they coming from my chemo side effects from last year? Or is this the menopause? Is this something else?

It's really hard to understand your own body. Yes, of course, and having such a short time to try and understand what's happening as well. You've also spoken out about a couple of things. of things. Not feeling like you needed to wear wigs? Yeah. Yeah, so I think that was mostly because of the menopause and I had my first two rounds of chemotherapy in a heat wave. I was not able to consistently wear my wig, so I wore it out for a couple of hours and then whipped it off. Chuffed it. But I am in awe of people who are able to wear their wigs constantly. I would love to be

able to do that. But I think he gave me more confidence as well with my diagnosis and everything else. Because you've talked about that, Enli, right? That your confidence is greater now after this experience that you've gone through. It is, yeah. So I think that kind of began when I posted my hair shaving video on TikTok and I had such a good response from that. And loads of lovely compliments from everyone. But then I started getting people reaching out to me to do amazing opportunities which gave me a voice and the feeling of, wow, my story is important. I do need to be heard. And yeah, I think from that, I've just, from every opportunity, my confidence is growing and growing every day. She's quite something, Charlotte, isn't she? She's amazing, amazing, honestly. I'm

already told you, I'm inspired by you. And I think what you're doing to speak out, especially as such a young person, it's going to do amazing things and really help other people to be diagnosed with ovarian cancer at an earlier stage. That's the way that we get the word out as ovarian cancer doesn't have a screening program. We need to spread the word about the symptoms. So you're doing exactly that. So thank you. And Charlotte, you were also young, only in your 30s when you were diagnosed. How did your experience shape your life? particularly working as a GP. Yeah, yeah.

I was 31 when I was starting there most and five years ago now. I'd say it completely changed my perspective, both personally and professionally. I'd agree with you, Eni. My life is completely different to what it was five years ago. But I think from a GP point of view, I was used to being that person on the other side of the desk, you know, listening to patients, trying to work out what their symptoms meant. And then suddenly I found myself being the patient.

you know, frightened, trying to make sense of what was going on to me, having questions, feeling like I needed to advocate for myself. And that experience has been actually really valuable for me as a GP. It hasn't made me think that every symptom means cancer, but it's made me so much more conscious of listening really carefully and intentionally when someone tells me that something isn't normal for them and they don't know what's going on, but they would like it looked into more. and I think that's why I'm doing the work now.

I am volunteering as a GP ambassador for Target Ovarian Cancer, the National Charity, and I'm also a trustee for the Diane Oxbury Trust. And a huge amount of my work is educating healthcare professionals and the general public about the symptoms of ovarian cancer because we want women and people who are born with overeaties to come forward and say, look, I've got these symptoms. They don't seem right. I've written down what they are.

please could you have a look into things more for me? And then at the other end, we want the healthcare professional to receive them and recognise and know what the symptoms might mean, be able to piece the jigsaw together and then organise the correct investigations. So it's a two part. And if somebody feels they're not being listened to? So I think the best thing is always make a note of what your symptoms are. You can utilise a symptoms diary.

And you can download those from many of the ovarian cancer charities, target ovarian cancer and the Dianxby Trust have them on their website. Get that. Make a note of your symptoms. Note down how they feel for you, how often they're happening. So you've got something visual. Take that, make a GP appointment and say that you're concerned about you might have ovarian cancer. You don't have to know whether you do or not. Obviously that's our job to try and work out if that's the case. But that will help us to understand what you're worried about and what you would like to have investigated. Then we can consider as the healthcare professional, okay, which tests do we need to do next?

Because obviously there might be other conditions as well that we need to think about tummy pain, bloating. These are symptoms of ovarian cancer, but they can also be symptoms of gastrointestinal problems and other cancers as well, like bowel cancer and pancreatic cancer. So there are other things that we need to consider at the same time. And I would say if you don't feel listened to by the first individual that you go and see, it's absolutely fine to go back and see somebody else

and to request a different clinician at your GP appointment, what we don't want to be happening is what's happened in Ennquise case where she felt like she had no other option than to go to A&E because the symptoms were so severe. We know that if people are diagnosed with ovarian cancer in A&E, the likelihood is that they would be diagnosed at a much later stage and they will have much poorer outcomes. So we want to catch them at the front door, really, in GP practice.

Enli, I understand you were a trainee mechanic at the time of being diagnosed. Are you still planning on going back? Did that work? I was, yeah. But I did have to give it up once I went into remission. But I think my diagnosis has also led me to wanting to become this advocate and working in the cancer sector as well. Yeah, so you have found another purpose from this experience.

experience as well. So lovely to have you on. Ethlene Thompson, also GP Charlotte Podesco. Thanks to both of you. If you do have any concerns, as ever, do contact your GP. We do have a statement from Maternity and Women's Service at Betsy Cadwallader University Health Board, which represents NHS hospitals and several managed GP surgeries in the Gwinnett area. They say diagnosing ovarian cancer can sometimes be challenging, particularly when symptoms are non-specific and may be associated with a range of conditions. We're working to, we're continuing to, we're continuing work closely with partners, clinical teams and patients to support cancer recovery and improve services across North Wales.

We remain committed to reducing waiting times, increasing access to diagnostics and treatment, and ensuring patients receive the highest possible standard of care. Now I want to turn to Stephanie Brown from the University of Hull, who has spent the past year as a woman's hour researcher in residence on the scheme that Radio 4 runs with the Arts in Humanities Research Council. She studies the history of crime And as part of our summer series,

we're going to hear about some of the latest research into women's lives past and present. Here she shares some new findings about the punishment of women in medieval England. I've been looking at the manor court rolls from Wakefield. Now, manor courts were sort of rural courts which all peasants had to attend. And in medieval England,

sort of 90% of the population are what we would now call peasants. So this is where everybody is handling their sort of day-to-day business. The royal courts, those based down at Westminster, get disproportionate attention from historians because they include their felonious crimes, the exciting things like murder or serious sexual violence. But the local courts, these manor courts, is where the peasants are going to sort out their day-to-day disputes. These courts took place twice a year on the Lord's Menorial estate, and what they would do is, they would go through each of the villages that were present at the court and ask their head juror, the man who represented that community, to essentially report and tell tales on each other. So since the

last court has sat, what offences have taken place. I am a historian of violence, so I've still been looking at how peasant communities negotiated violence, but looking at it from the sort of the everyday violence, violence that was much more common. Homicide, was and still is an incredibly rare crime. If we want to understand violence, we shouldn't really look at homicide. We should look at everyday, very minor violence. Offences that I'm interested in looking at are bloodshed, literally one person drawing blood from another, so it could be very, very minor violence, sort of cuts and scrapes, those types of things. But they also reported offences against the assizes of beer and ale, so people who were adulterating their bread,

watering down their beer and they'd also look at when the hue and cry had been raised and whether it was done correctly. So there was sort of a list of sort of very minor quasi sort of criminal offences coming up in these records. We get essentially a list of enigmatic one-liners. We get one sentence that gives us three pieces of information. So we have the name of the attacker, the person who is said to have drawn blood. We get the name of the victim, the person that they drew blood from, and we get the emmercement, and this is the financial penalty. Today we would say a fine, and that's it, and then we go on to the next one, and then the next one, and then the next one. The village of Walton presents that Beatrix's wife of John drew blood from Agnes de Wodeus.

Beatrix is immersed six pence. The village of Osset presents that John Warrant drew blood from John de Northwood, amersment 12 pence. Historians of gender being quite interested in looking at peasant women and finding how often women come up in these records. And what I found is that women were immersed or find half the amount as men. So the typical or the average emersment for men was around 12 pence. For women, it's six pence. And this is a brand new finding. So the obvious conclusion that people want to reach for and every time I talk about this is that, oh, well,

women's violence was less serious. It must say something about the severity of the crime. And you'll see from these one-line sentences, we cannot tell anything about the severity. We don't know how serious this drawing of blood was. So I looked at these a little closer and found that not only are women immersed half the amount of men, but when you actually look at the male fines, there's huge variation in the male fines all the way from one pence up to 80 pence. So what I'm arguing that the court are doing is assessing the capacity of the person to pay. Women typically earned half the amount of men in the middle ages. So it's yes, the punishment must fit the crime, but it also must fit the person. Women were paid less than men because

they were expected to have a male breadwinner, a husband, or if they were younger, to be still living in their father's household. If we think about to comparing it to today, if we think about the fixed penalty notice, a parking ticket, a speeding fine, these amounts are the same no matter who you are. You could be just about managing, struggling to make ends meet, or you could be a billionaire, but if you park somewhere you shouldn't, you go over the speed limit, the fine that you're going to receive is exactly the same. These are fixed penalty notices. But when I'm a lot of the not seeing that in the medieval monorial court. We're seeing a much fairer system that considers not only the offence, the punishment is not just fitting this crime, but it's also fitting the person. So,

if they are one of the poorest persons on the monorial estate, then a lower fine will have an impact on them. If they can easily afford to pay one or two pence, then that needs to be increased. So they are feeling the punishment equally to those who have less to them. So I think the minorial system is actually much, much fairer and much more just than our system of fixed penalty notices today. Stephanie Brown from the University of Hull, one of our researchers in residence. Thanks very much to her. Thanks for your messages coming in.

We were talking about putting women on the map when it comes to female-owned businesses. Your suggestions for the name of the map here, Sue. She says, chef, very good. H-E-F for that map of women-led hospitality businesses. Another from Debbie, she says, know her place. Very good. Another, found her, says Steve, for the female founders. Keep them coming.

8-4-8-4-4. Also, we're talking about what's in your wardrobe? Wardrobe confessions this morning as well, that you're not throwing out even though you never wear it or them. Like, a pair of Chanel high heels, hardly worn, can't bear to get rid of them, as my husband bought them for me about 50 years ago. Here's another, Sylvia.

25 years ago, I bought a crocheted dress on the side of the road in Zimbabwe. It's a little tight now, but I love it so much. I wore it on my 90th birthday. Sylvia, you keep that dress. You're wearing it. It's all good. Why are we talking about this? Because I suppose we're asking,

is your wardrobe a clutter-free haven of beautifully coordinated outfits? Or is it more a chaotic jumble of jumpers, jeans and everything, between, could an app be the answer to fix that? Well, there's apps such as index, wearing, ALTA. They've users catalog what they own in your wardrobe and then visualize outfits and experiment with your style using that app. Here's some information. According to the company verified market research,

in 2024, the global styling app market was valued at 2.6 billion and it's projected to double its value by 2032. Well, let's talk a little bit about what. this might mean for self-expression, the psychology of getting dressed and sustainability. We have Nicole Glennon, Deputy Editor at the Irish Examiner Weekend magazine, and Dionne-Tera Long, who's a fashion psychologist and practitioner. Great to have both of you with us. Now, Nicole, you've written about this, trying out a digital wardrobe app.

Tell me a little bit how the wardrobe was and how it all worked out. Well, I think like a lot of us in January, you come into the year with a lot of our plans. in the past I would have had, you know, I want to spend less money on clothes. I want to be more sustainable. And I suppose the smaller ego part was I want to be more fashionable. I still want to be stylish. And I was worried, I suppose, that if I gave up fast fashion and I gave up buying clothes, that I wouldn't be excited to get dressed in the morning. So I was kind of coming from that perspective when I decided to download the app. I used it for about three months before I wrote the first article, but I've actually been using it for eight months now.

So safe to say, I found it really helpful. So it's quite time-consuming, right? Just talk us through, you have to go in and photograph every item of clothing in the wardrobe? Yeah, so this is what I say to people. The initial time investment is, I think, a little bit overwhelming for people. What I did was I basically threw on some music, asked my boyfriend to give me a hand. He took the photos and I uploaded it. everything. I've since said to people, like, I think if you have maybe make a day of it with

your girlfriends or even get your kids involved for that initial process, but once you've everything on the app, it's actually a breeze. I mean, today's Tuesday. So what I did on Saturday was instead of, I suppose, waking up every morning and stressing about what I'm going to wear when I'm scrolling, instead of scrolling a fashion website or you know, your ASOS and your next, I'm actually scrolling my own wardrobe up at the weekend and I'll pick out, this is what I'm going to wear Monday. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Thursday, a Friday. Make sure everything's washed, dry, ironed, and then away you go. You have a gorgeous blue and orange shirt on you this morning. I noticed little earrings that go with it as well. So that was decided by Saturday or Sunday, do we think? Exactly.

And it's what you say about the earrings, because it's those kind of things where I did interview a personal styles for the article as well. And she helped me in putting some of those pieces together. And now I know on the app, you can actually access stylists for a fee and get them to style you based on your wardrobe. So that's where she would have helped me to kind of, one thing I wasn't great with was actually accessories. So she said, you know, I can see you've lots of different earrings. Why don't we pair these with different things? And, you know, even if you're wearing the same thing, just by changing maybe your shoes

and your earrings, you'll feel like you get more wears out of them. And I also found it really useful for office clothes where I think some of us tend to to wear the same things over and over again. So the stat that I had in the piece was that the typical stat is we wear 20% of our clothes, 80% of the time. Now, I just had a look at my app before I came on this morning and I've worn 70% of my wardrobe in the last six months.

Oh, well done, Nicole. That's amazing. Let me bring in Dion here. Let's go to that stat. We're in 20% of our wardrobe, 80% of the time. Why do we get stuck in those ruts from a psychological perspective? I guess many, many reasons, you know, our memories are not that great as human beings. And we have this, like, primacy and recency effects. So we tend to only remember the things in terms of, like, items in our wardrobe. We remember what we've worn most often or most recently, what we've bought

most recently, or perhaps those kind of items in our wardrobes that are like, kind of like big glam pieces that we know are in there. Everything else in between, we forget. It goes right to the bottom of the drawer. So we just don't realize it's there. And the world is so busy these days. We have emails, our phones are pinging, social media. We get overwhelmed information. So it's really hard for us to remember everything. So when you go to your wardrobe in the morning, you just don't remember what's in there. But these apps are really helpful for helping you to have a visual inventory. So when you think I have nothing to wear, you can literally look at that app and it can remind you. Act as a prompt. And it breaks that habit cycle as well that we see happening.

Because what is happening to us, you know, Nicole alludes to it there. What's happening to our brain when we're browsing online and wanting to buy a new item of clothing. And can that be replicated by scrolling through our own clothes? It can a bit. What's happening in our brain is lighting up all over the place. It loves it. The brain's reward centre is getting lots of feedback from the bright colours on the website, the pretty looking kind of clothing, and also that sense of like, oh, I might get

something nice here. I'm going to be rewarded. And therefore, I'm going to get that dopamine spike. but the apps can provide, I guess, a similar benefit in terms of the brain mechanisms because what you're doing is you're getting that sense of reward by being able to make new outfits from existing items. So you think, oh, look what I did. Look what I put together.

And it kind of satiates that feeling of novelty because you're able to find new combinations. The brain loves novelty, but it can be in any form. It's just because the message is pushed so hard that you need to buy new clothes at the time. We think that's the only way, but it's not the only way. Here's a message. Yesterday, my daughter Kate came over to help me sort out my wardrobe. Her solution was to sell things on a website. She took a photo, listed it. It sold within 10 minutes. And now I have to get used to the idea. She's amused by my attachment to clothing that I had no purpose for. And I have a little more space in my wardrobe. And Nicole, you threw out a few things, right?

Yeah, and I'm laughing because that message, my mum actually gave out to me for selling a leather jacket. She apparently had her eye on because I hadn't worn. So you have to be maybe run it past your mum or your sisters first. But yeah, certainly the app helped with that too in the sense that when I uploaded everything. There was a couple of items I knew straight away. I didn't even bother uploading them to the app for, you know, maybe they didn't fit me or they just never suited me. So they went straight on, finted and deep up.

There was other items that, you know, I had attachments to, so I wanted to keep them. Then after a couple of ones, I realized, like, they're just not getting worn. What they've been passed on? What about this one from Michelle from Notting? him. She says, I can't get rid of my wedding dress even though we're now divorced. It was handmade in a beautiful, bright, red, crushed silk.

It's a reminder of good times, optimism, and that you don't have to be a conventional dresser. Sounds fantastic. Let me come back to you, Diane. Some apps have this option to use AI to help you suggest outfit combinations for you, for example. But what about, I mean,

is there any downside to using technology instead of flexing our own creative brain to create? the outfits. Yeah, for sure. You know, clothing is so closely linked to our identity. And remember when you're a teenager, you try out some really interesting looks like a gophe, a skater, whatever, and you find your way. And that's how you find a way by making mistakes and practicing. So I would say on these apps, although they're offering you the AI option, I think if you want to build up your skill and your confidence in dressing yourself and knowing what works for you and what you like, it's probably

better to use the kind of mechanical function of swiping through it and putting things together yourself. Sure, it's okay to have a few suggestions, but I think in terms of longevity, it has to be able to manage your wardrobe going forward, even without the app in the future, it's much better if you can put the items together for yourself and see what works. And I know you've got a little help, Nicole, at the beginning with the stylist that came in, but I suppose she was giving you tips and tricks as well. You wanted to stop shopping as much. has it worked? It has.

I'm delighted to say. What I do now, my best tip for people, is before I buy something, I actually take a photo and upload it to the app before I've bought it. So for an example, I really wanted this jacket from Zara. I was telling myself,

it's fast fashion, I'm not going to buy it. You don't need another jacket. And I paired it with 10 outfits. And I thought, okay, this is actually something I know I'll wear. And I have, I've been. I've worn it 25 times this year. I think I just bought it in March.

So that's pretty good cost per where I would say. So my advice to people is maybe before you make that decision, just check first. Because like that, there's other things I've put in and I've realised, like for me, one of the big realisations was I seem to have a lot of white polka dot back clothes. So realistically, I don't need to buy another polka dot skirt. And so the polka dots can be put in the polka dot section. off the app, I guess, as well as the actual wardrobe. Really interesting to hear from both of you. Thank you both so much.

That was Nicole Glennon from the Irish Examiner and Dion Terra Long Fashion Psychologist. Do join me on tomorrow's program. We've Shavon Daniels back. You might remember she sold all her possessions and decided to live a nomadic life in her motorhome. I don't know what her wardrobe is like. Well, she's now written a book

about her 4,000-mile solo journey from Canada to Alaska along the Alaska Highway. We'll talk about it tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Greg Jenner. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the comedy podcast that takes history seriously.

And we are back for a 12th series. Everyone in that film is wearing their own pants. We're joined by comedians like Kyle Smith Bino and Desiree Birch. Can't see how this would go wrong. We'll meet many medieval saints. Motivational speaker saint. With like a sort of Madonna head mic on. We're doing a history of underwear.

Plus there's loads more. dead to me listen on BBC Sounds