Woman's Hour - HRT shortages, Asylum-seeking women and destitution, Long-term relationships

Episode Date: February 11, 2020

Last week we discussed the shortages of menopause treatment drug HRT, which began in late 2018. This week, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists have said they are ‘very concerned’ about women buying HRT products from unregulated online sites. Some sites were found to be selling products at four times the NHS price. Dr Sarah Jarvis, clinical director of patientacess.com, offers advice to HRT users in light of the shortages. Anna Whitehouse and Matt Farquharson are the duo behind the comedy podcast, Dirty Mother Pukka They have a new book out, Where’s My Happy Ending? where they discuss the trials, tribulations & rewards of relationships and family life. A new report published by the charity Women for Refugee Women claims that women who have fled rape and other sexual violence in their country of origin are being made vulnerable to further abuse in the UK because of government policy which makes them destitute. The report contains the stories of over 100 asylum seeking women. We hear from one of them and Jane speaks to human rights activist, Natasha Walter, founder of Women for Refugee Women.Friendship can be one of the most powerful and important aspects of any woman’s life. We explore what sisterhood means to different women at different points in their lives. Kenyera Boothe and Rachel Musekiwa are 19 and are best friends. They both grew up in foster care.Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Dr Sarah Jarvis Interviewed guest: Ana Whitehouse Interviewed guest: Matt Farquharson Interviewed guest: Natasha Walter Interviewed guest: Kenyera Boothe Interviewed guest: Rachel Musekiwa Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. This is the Woman's Hour podcast. Today on the programme we're going to talk about a book that is fantastically unsmug about marriage. Anna Whitehouse and Matt Farquharson have put together a book called Where's My Happy Ending? And it's particularly useful if you're in the early, tough, young child-rearing years of marriage.

So they're my guests on the programme today. And we begin a three-part series celebrating friendship. Today we'll meet two young women who forged a very, very close link. They are both basically young women with experience of foster care. And it's made their friendship really important. So they are on the programme today as well. First of all, we are going to discuss HRT again. There'll be some sighs of, oh, why are you doing that again?

Well, we are doing it because it's back in the newspapers again. A lot of talk about HRT. We know there is a shortage of some sorts of hormone replacement therapy and women are travelling across the country in some cases. They are ordering it online. The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

have said they are concerned about women buying HRT from unregulated online sites. Some sites were found to be selling products at four times the NHS price. So let's bring in Dr Sarah Jarvis, Clinical Director of Patientaccess.com, and frankly a woman who spends more time at Broadcasting House than I do. I do spend quite a lot of time seeing patients too.

Of course you do, yeah, I know. So first of all, your view on why there is a shortage, what do you say about that? Well, the trouble is we don't actually know. We do know in the last 20 years, the last 17 years, since the first publication of this big study, an American study, which has subsequently been discredited, which said that women who took HRT were at higher risk of heart attack and stroke. We know that's not true for women during their menopausal years. Since that time, there's been a huge drop in the number of women taking it.

And therefore, for companies, it's been difficult to assess whether it's worth their while producing it and whether, you know, how many stocks to get in. Now, all we hear is there are manufacturing supplies. One of the companies where there were big problems has been taken over by another and they have ramped up production. So there is some good news. And actually, a lot of the places now we are at least getting to grips with which forms of HRT are a problem, when they might be back in stock, and your pharmacist is going to be able to advise on alternatives. So have a word with your pharmacist. We have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. They say the addition of HRT to the drug tariff is completely unrelated to the shortage.

That was certainly a belief that actually that was exactly the explanation for the shortage. But the Department of Health say no, that isn't the reason. Brexit was also mentioned. That apparently not the reason either. Okay. Well, people can certainly have their view and you're very welcome to contact us at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram or email via the website. So first of all, the dodgy sites potentially, should you ever buy drugs online? Yes, you can buy drugs online, but you do need to be really, really careful. For instance, online doctors, you need to look on the site and check that the doctors are registered with the General Medical Council, the GMC, that they have that registration up front, that the site is appropriately regulated. There are some pharmacists, for instance, where you can get products which used to be available only on prescription, now from pharmacists under something called a PGD.

Now, I'm not aware of any pharmacists offering HRT, but I think that's probably going to be coming. How do you know you're getting the real thing, though? Well, the point is that if you've gone to a reputable site, if you've gone to an online pharmacy, it will have a green cross. And when you click on that link, it will take you to the Royal Pharmaceutical Society and it will tell you the registration and that means that they are fully regulated. If you go on to any of these places where it looks too good to be true then it probably is whereas online doctors can provide it but interestingly online doctors may well be having the same problems getting hold of HRT as NHS doctors. Why not just change if the HRT you were on isn't available why not just change to another product? Well I've heard over the years

so many stories from women who've had different side effects and one of the problems we've got is that different HRTs like different forms of contraception have different side effects and unfortunately you cannot tell looking at a woman I cannot look at one of my patients and say you would be best suited for that because I don't know. One woman might find this HRT fantastic and the next one dreadful, cause nausea, cause hot flushes, cause weight gain, etc., etc., breast tenderness. Another woman might find the second HRT absolutely acceptable. So the best way to do it is to speak to your pharmacist.

The BMS website, theish menopause society website has a really great resource where you can go on look online and look and see if your hrt is available and your pharmacist can go and look online and see what the closest alternative is that is available are people okay i happen to have a lovely pharmacist i should say um are people okay to stand up in a chemist and chat to the pharmacist about their HRT? Very good question. These days, of course, more and more pharmacies, in fact, I would say the majority of pharmacies, have a private consultation room. So go into your pharmacy, speak to the pharmacist's counterassistant, explain you've got a problem, say you'd like to speak to the pharmacist. They will usually be very happy to take you into a separate room and speak to you in confidence.

And don't forget, pharmacists know as much as any GPp about medicines they've done a degree and extra training yeah they're not they are not um i'm no way being rude about shop assistants but they are not shop assistants these people are very highly very qualified yeah um here's an email actually echoing something you said uh on my new hrt drug uh says this listener, I just couldn't work. I had joint pain. I cried constantly. I didn't have any energy. My mood swings were diabolical. I am freelance. I financially support my family and I have to work. And my HRT original drug did allow me to do this.

And I think that's a really important comment because, of course, we do forget so many people out there go, oh, it's natural to go through the menopause. Well, actually, until 100 years ago, most women didn't live long enough to go through the menopause i strongly suspect that if men went through the same symptoms as some women do they would be up in arms about it but i think it does put into perspective the risks we do know that there is an increased risk of breast cancer and a study that came out in august last year suggested the risk might be bigger than we thought so So people taking continuous combined, which is where you take both oestrogen and progesterone all month and don't get periods, one in 50 extra women, they estimate, taking HRT for five years will get breast cancer. For women taking sequential combined, where you have a bleed every month, but you're taking oestrogen and progesterone, one in 70.

And there does even appear to be a smaller increased risk, one in 200 women, for women who've had a hysterectomy and therefore take estrogen-only HRT. But if there's no breast cancer in your family, as far as you're aware, if you are a light drinker, a non-smoker, you're not overweight, and you exercise regularly, it's, well, in fact, it's a life, HRT has proved to be a lifesaver. Absolutely. And I think it's, that's why it's up to individual women to weigh up the risks. I was relatively lucky when I went through the menopause. Had I not been adopted, which means I don't know what my family history is, then had I had really bad symptoms, I would, having looked at the evidence in great detail, have been very happy to consider HRT. However that's an individual woman's decision

because the fact is if you've got a one in 200 increased risk of getting it if you get it you don't get it 0.5% you get it 100%. Yeah there is there is something to weigh up here there's no doubt about that I should say I've been on it I'm not on it now I'm partly not on it because it wasn't available so and I didn't quite go cold turkey. I kind of weaned myself off my supply. Is that a good thing to do? That's a really difficult question. The problem is if you've been on HRT and you are still in the middle of the menopausal period,

when you come off, you may well go through all the flushes again. And we know that the menopause now, the symptoms, last for much longer. When I was a girl, when I was a medical student, I was taught, oh, a couple of years, woman will be absolutely fine. They'll get through it. Just pat them on the head for a couple of years and they'll be fine. These days, we know the symptoms can last for seven years on average, and it could be much longer. So what NICE says is if you come off cold turkey, things may be worse. But for other women, of course, we do know that you may simply be prolonging the agony by dropping it down because you start to get those hot flushes as you drop it down prolonging the agony um thank you for that medical term cheers uh for our many listeners who are saying yes as

you said earlier if this happened to men there wouldn't be these shortages that have they got a point i think there might be more of an outcry, I suspect. I'm quite sure that the manufacturers and the suppliers are not saying, oh, let's cut this one off because it's only women. But I have to say, I do think there might have been a bit more of an outcry. OK, thank you very much. And we're continuing to receive your emails on this subject. If you have anything to add, and I suspect there will be a few women out there with plenty to add,

you know what you can do. Thank you very much, Sarah. Thank you. That is Dr Sarah Jarvis at BBC Women's Hour on Instagram and Twitter. And, of course, there's always email as well. Now, Anna Whitehouse and Matt Farkerson are here. They are the duo behind a podcast called Dirty Mother Pucker and their book Where's My Happy Ending is all about the trials and tribulations

and indeed rewards of marriage and family life when you're in the thick of it with really young children so Anna, Matt welcome to the program good to see you both. Hi. I was slightly dreading reading this because I thought it was going to be all about how wonderful it is to be married and it's great and I'm a slightly cynical more than slightly cynical divorcee who wasn't expecting to get a lot out of it but actually you're both really honest. Was it difficult to write Anna because you do separate chapters don't you? Yes we wrote the book

separately. We did the first nine chapters separately and then we read each other's chapters before writing chapter 10 which was sort of dangerously called stick or twist. We're still here just about sellotaping over the cracks how long have you been together oh 12 years uh yeah about that about that you know you lose count yes exactly

yeah so that was revelatory i think reading about matt's experience on a free love commune um when i hadn't really thought about the implications of what it would be to read about your partner being in a portuguese love commune. But read about it. Any good? Well, I mean, I was tucked away in a safe space of my own while everyone else was swapping caravans and so on. But I think the whole process of getting that rare opportunity to see inside your partner's mind was the most remarkable thing

because we talked about all sorts of things through the book from social media and sex and porn and the impact of kids and all of those things. But also I think probably the most revelatory bit for each of us was really getting to understand what the other one was thinking and feeling about things which we weren't that likely to share otherwise. Staring into that chasm of misery. What you both acknowledge is that children, far from being something that can keep a relationship together,

are actually really likely to challenge it. And as a quote from you, Anna, I don't think we've heard each other properly since our second daughter was born in 2017. Just expand on that. I think there was a point, you know, where you get married, for example, and you might not, but we did. And, you know, you say I do.

And then there's this big space between I do and the end till death do us part. And it's the same with your wedding day is supposed to be the best day of your life. And it's like, well, what is it then after after that is it just a steady decline to the end and I think people often have a misconception oh I'll have a child and that might freshen things up at some point no no no it weighs it down significantly and I think we all knew that but you did a lot of research on this yeah so throughout the book we tried to get interesting anecdotal stories from individuals who had remarkable stories to tell but we also looked into quite a lot of the academic paperwork on all of these subjects and in most of the things that we looked at there was a

little bit of room for debate. The one area where there really wasn't was about the impact of children on relationships and the impact is universally acknowledged to be terrible. This was found in papers that were done in Asia, in Europe, in the US, among different ethnic groups, gay couples and straight couples. That impact of a tiny person who you both adore that steals your time and your money and the moments that you have together has a universally acknowledged bad impact on your relationship. There's a sanctuary in acknowledging that. I think just fully acknowledging it, knowing it's not us, it's them.

It's everyone. Because you feel incredibly guilty about that. And one of the best bits of advice that we got was from a therapist that we spoke to who said the biggest mistake he finds that when people come to him is they worship their children he said I quite often have people getting in touch with me telling me that their marriage is in the toilet their relationships falling apart and then I look at their Facebook profile and it's a picture of their kids or it's a picture of one parent and the kids and actually what you're doing then is you're

worshipping the children at the exclusion of the person that you're raising them with and that's a common mistake. Okay that's interesting well I hadn't really thought of it that way. Change your profile pic. Has that situation become much more of a thing in the last 10 years since children horrifically became instagrammable? I think there's a bit more honesty now. I think this is the sort of thing that it was considered shameful to talk about. You are supposed to relentlessly adore your children, feeling incredibly blessed. And we do quite a lot of the time. But I don't think it's unreasonable to acknowledge that actually they do take a big toll on the relationship you have with the person you're raising. Well, Matt did a brilliant graph of, you know, with with children it can go from spontaneous shin cuddle in tesco really high to

screaming on the pavement two seconds later your highs and your your highs are high your lows are low um and i think it was acknowledging that that helped us actually get through it we'll get on to sex in a minute everybody but let's let's talk money as well because you're honest about that and i think you use a great expression anna um women like benevolent sexists well that was a piece of research that i discovered oh sorry it was a slightly controversial one i own more than you but you but this is so we talk about this quite a bit right hang on anna you earn more than Matt. Yes. Okay, just so people know that. So we talk about this quite a bit in the book.

For the first 10 years or so of our relationship, I earned more. And then in the last few years, there's been a shift where Anna's earned more. And then all of a sudden, I have to make this adjustment of, well, actually, given that we've got two kids to care for, my meeting for this particular thing is less important to the family. So I've got to be the one that cancels it to go and collect a sticky infant. And there's a bit of a sort of, I think we're both comfortable saying there's a bit of a mentality shift there that was an adjustment. And it's an increasingly common adjustment in that something like

in a third of straight relationships in the UK at the moment, the woman now earns more than the man. but people are quite nervous about talking about it there are some there's some research in the states that suggests that when that's the case women lie about how much they earn downgrading to protect what to protect the fragile male ego i guess emasculation and men lie about how much they own saying they own a bit more um which was interesting and surprising and seeing my sister and her wife uh there's just no um there's no weight of uh issue around who brings home the bacon who cooks the bacon they there's just bacon and they deal with it which isn't to say that gay relationships are without any issues at all um and i wonder whether you think that in

gay relationships particularly if children are involved, as increasingly they are now, perhaps they also fall into a kind of division of labour state of affairs? Well, we talked about this, and actually the difference was that they're within... Matt and I have trodden a well-worn path of marriage mortgage babies, man and woman get married, and, you know, with hopes of a white picket fence at some point. But in same-sex couples, like with my sister,

there's not male or female roles. It's just who's better at what. That's what it comes down to. So there's not an expectation that women will do this, men will do that. It's just there's no gender construct weighing them down. So they just get on with it in a way that I think a lot of relationships maybe don't in the way

that we've come forward. We're seamlessly on to porn now. I know you'd like to avoid the subject, Matt, but we're not going to. One of the reasons I do really admire this book is that you're honest about porn and the reality of the presence of porn in contemporary relationships. So a little bit about that, Anna, and about the fact that I think you tried to watch it together. It was catastrophic. I think it was to watch it together. It was catastrophic. I think it was all like we have so few hobbies together. I thought, well, why don't we make this our hobby?

And then I attempted it, but it felt a little bit like I was sort of a lower tier footballer trying to play for England because obviously Matt's been watching more of it. Yeah, and also I think you just felt you were intruding. I just felt it was not my space maybe and I think Matt will hate me for saying this but I think the one point where I felt my lowest

was when I realised when I'd seen Matt's browser history that I definitely didn't look like any of the girls he was watching. Matt? So we I mean I think it's important to be clear we don't go into a huge amount of detail about our own personal experiences. No you don't and I will say again I really admire your honesty but it's it's something that is a sort of grotty digital elephant in most relationships that gets overlooked if I think of the sort of

the whatsapp groups that I'm in with my mates it's not long before someone makes a joke about their favoured category on you porn or something And one of the things that Anna said was that actually, when she talks to her friends about it quite often, there is a bit of hurt there. And so we felt this was something that's probably quite common and worthy of a bit more investigation. And according to which piece of research you look at, three in four men in the UK are likely to have viewed porn in the last month. And viewed is obviously a bit of a euphemism because no one's judging the camera work.

But this is obviously something that lurks in the background of most relationships. And most of the guys I spoke to consider it something that's as normal and unstoppable as a sneeze. But actually, for most of the women, it's something that can be a little bit more hurtful, I think. Well, I think you're right. It is hurtful because you feel I think you're right it is hurtful because you feel as Anna has already said that you're not quite cutting the mustard it's not

yeah I think it makes you know when you're postpartum and uh you know you can't have sex for medical reasons and you're twice the size you used to be you're not the sort of it's not the oxytocin fueled six months when you first got together and then your husband's looking at a perfectly honed woman going at it with someone else. You feel low. There is a moment. I think we needed to acknowledge that within our relationship to get over it, not to get under to get over.

That's not the tip. I think one of the things that was most interesting was speaking to a feminist porn director who had had exactly these experiences herself erica lust yeah um she had the reason she started to make porn was that she felt you know excluded and inferior and her view on it is actually this isn't something that i can watch with my partner either this is a private viewing experience because of that sort of pressure of having to try and replicate things or feeling a little bit inferior in comparison Anna yeah I mean I think

the thing I love most about Erica Lust is that she put out an advert for a woman to star in a porn film that she was making about a pianist and one of the top Spanish... Sorry, you did say a pianist. A pianist, not a pianist. There's a different thing. Well, I don't know. Either way, but this top level pianist applied. She'd never done a pornography film before. She could play the piano impeccably. And so you had a film of one of Spain's best piano players doing a porno. And I watched that and I enjoyed it. She'd really, she said the hardest thing was telling the guy

to not act like he does in other pornos. And that I found interesting. It's like, you know, the sex worker we spoke to, she said the one point that all couples get wrong is that men need to sex, sex to have the knuffle, the cuddle. And? And women need the knuffle to have the sex and because couples don't work that out i get paid and is it different in same-sex relationships then

i mean i need to get my sister on on the call for that your sister should be able to do it the difficult thing was that there's much less research out there on same-sex relationships um because in most of the countries where gay marriage has been legal it hasn't been legal for very long and there's sort of 80 90 years of research on straight relationships we couldn't really find anything that gave us solid conclusions on the impact of pornography in those relationships coming back to something you mentioned earlier about the impact of pornography in those relationships. Coming back to something you mentioned earlier about the impact of kids, actually kids were also quite a negative impact on gay relationships. And what tended to happen was the higher earner would work more and the lower earner would take on more of the childcare role.

So it wasn't strictly done by gender. It was done by who earned the most. But the thing that really stood out, I think, and we spoke to lots of people. We spoke to ardent anti-porn i think we spoke to lots of people we spoke to ardent anti-porn advocates we spoke to porn makers the thing that really stood out was actually the weight of um academic research suggests that porn is bad for relationships the only times where it can improve relationship is when both parties are enthusiastically watching it together and we tried

that and it was terrible so and they will have to leave it actually we will and that's a real shame um thank you for coming in where's my happy ending is the name of the book and um as i say if you are that person perhaps dealing with small children and in a relationship and finding it occasionally tough then this is going to provide i think it will actually genuinely help because you are both um unsparing about your own weaknesses and about everybody's genuine trouble at this stage in in relationships so thank you both very much for coming in thank you so much thank you it's good to see you again um i have met you before haven't i yeah we've been on before yeah the menopause isn't all that bad then um thank you

very much so it's um Woman's Hour and this is, oh, it's worth alerting you to the fact that tomorrow Jane Austen's Emma is in cinemas. I don't think for the first time. There's a new version out. I keep seeing the trail every time I go to see anything. And the star and the director are both on Woman's Hour tomorrow talking to Jenny.

Yesterday's programme about loneliness, it really did get under the skin. I really found it in some ways very moving and slightly challenging myself at times. So if you didn't hear that, BBC Sounds is where to go for yesterday's programme about loneliness in 21st century Britain. The emails on that programme are still coming in.

So I think we honestly are going to have to keep returning to the subject of loneliness because it is really a challenge for so many people. in. So I think we honestly are going to have to keep returning to the subject of loneliness because it is really a challenge for so many people. Now, a new report by the organisation Women for Refugee Women claims that women who fled rape and other sexual violence are vulnerable to more abuse in the UK because of government policy, which they say can leave them destitute. The report contains the stories of over 100 asylum-seeking women. Now, yesterday, I met a woman we're going to call Anna.

She is gay and she's from Cameroon, where homosexuality is still illegal. She came to this country in 2012 on a tourist visa, but didn't know she could claim asylum until she was taken to Yarlswood Immigration Detention Centre in 2015. There, she did submit a claim, which was refused. She's now made another claim, but isn't getting any asylum support, and she says she is, quite honestly, destitute. She told me first why she had to get out of Cameroon.

I was caught in Cameroon with another old lady, and I was tortured. I still have the scars all over my body. And I was locked up for a couple of days. And in the detention, I was raped by the police officer and there was really nothing I could do because, you know, as a lesbian woman, you don't have much right in Cameroon. And when horrible things like that happen to you, there's no one you can tend to.

So I had to run away. Everybody listening to that story will have immense sympathy for you, Anna. And I know this is extraordinarily difficult for you to talk about. Yeah. So that's some years ago now. Yes. What was life like for you in Britain when you first got here? So when I first got to England, I thought everything was going to be different.

And even though it's much better compared to the situation back in Africa, it's still really troubling and it's still really difficult because the Home Office is not willing to help asylum seekers support them with accommodation and otherwise other support and so I was unable to get accommodation so I had to sleep on the bus I had to sleep from one friend's house to the other I had to even have sex and relationship with a man that I didn't want to because it was the only means for me to support him while he supported me with food and accommodation and all of that. So I became so ashamed of myself and I would give him sex any time he wanted it

because I didn't want him throwing me out on the streets. Right now, as I speak to you, as an asylum seeker, you're not allowed to work. You're not allowed to own a house, not own, even rent a house. You're not allowed to open as simple as a bank account. So you're basically working on this trade, not being able to do anything. Even though you still have an ongoing case with the Home Office, so many refusers before you can eventually get accepted to get an accommodation for you.

So it's really difficult. How much money do you have to live on? eventually get accepted to get an accommodation for you. So it's really difficult. How much money do you have to live on? Usually I don't have anything because we don't get the right to work in the country. So you hang out with friends who give you maybe a mattress to sleep on the floor or they give you a couch to sleep on. And you can take their kids to school for them to give you a little, maybe £10 a week and food. Or you have to clean up their houses or you cook for them.

So you do little bits and bits in the house. Is that how you're living now? Yes. With a friend who gives you the odd in return for household tasks? Yes. But that can't go on forever, can it? No, it can't. And your wish would be to be able to earn your own living?

Yes. So I can live where I want to live and I can make my own rules and decisions. And how long ago did you last see somebody in an official role who could help you? Actually, I have an ongoing case. So I went to court a couple of weeks ago and I'm just waiting for a decision. So that would be your leave to remain? Yes. Again, for people who wouldn't have a clue what that meant,

what difference would that immediately make to your life? A huge difference, a massive difference. That would mean you'd be able to get a job, you'd be able to get a GP, you'd be able to open an account, you'd be able to get accommodation and you'd be able to travel, account, you'll be able to get accommodation and you'll be able to travel, go around the world, see different places. If you were to really be honest about your life at the moment, how would you describe it? A mess and a complete waste of life, to be honest. Because you're someone who'd like to contribute? I would, I would. And that's why I'm

here, to speak out. How many other women do you know in a similar situation to you? Any group that I am in with women for refugee women were about 25. And that's just a tiny portion because there are lots of women out there that do not even know that there are organisations out there that can really help. And can you give me an idea of the sort of experiences that those other women have been through? Same kind of experience I've been through. They sleep in their friends' homes, they sleep on the buses. Some of them prostitute. They have sex with different men for money so they can, you know, take care of themselves.

The idea of spending the night on a bus, what's that like? So you get on the bus and the bus... What time do you get on the bus and the bus. What time do you get on the bus? Once it gets to late night you just get on the bus and the bus keeps going round and round and round and round you're just trying to survive you don't even know where to get off and you're just there till like early morning you get off again move around the city go to the mall or you go to the library or you go to a shop and have a coffee if you've got spare change on you. I'm focusing on the bus only because i want people to understand just how you've got to be at a low point to spend a night on a bus yeah do the drivers not pay any attention do other passengers

take any notice of you not really because the different passengers that get on and get off the bus and the drivers change some of them sometimes don't really care some will ask you why you're on the bus and you can explain or they'll ask you to get off. You get off and then you wait for the next bus and then you get on the bus again and still do the same round until the next driver asks you to get off. Would you sleep on the bus? Yeah, you sleep on the bus. So the whole night you can go all the way to the end and then back and then all the way to the end and then back until the driver asks you to either leave or ask you what the problem is. Then you can jump off and get on the next bus and do the same the whole night she was a very very brave contributor actually that was a woman we are calling anna from the cameroon who i met yesterday

natasha walter is the founder of women for refugee women first of all um the idea that anna is living on air she is getting no money i i don't understand that. Why is she not getting any money at all? Because her first asylum claim was refused and all her support was cut off at that point. There are no official statistics about how many people are in this situation, but other organisations have estimated that there are thousands. And we spoke to over in the UK now, and we spoke to over 100 women for this report who've experienced destitution, who've come to this country to seek asylum, and who've experienced destitution at some point in the process. So some of them may have had problems accessing the initial

asylum support. Some of them may have experienced destitution after getting their leave to remain with the challenges of moving into mainstream benefits. Most of the women we spoke to experienced destitution like Anna after refusal of the first claim. And I just want to sort of highlight for your listeners that often women are getting very, very unfair refusals. You know, the Home Office often gives very, very poor decisions on women's cases. Women face a lot of disbelief. And it's very, very poor decisions on women's cases. Women face a lot of disbelief. And it's very, very hard, and I think getting harder, in my experience, for women to get the kind of legal representation they need to support them to make their cases.

There's a lot to unpick there. Absolutely. Do you think women are getting a harder time than male claimants or applicants? Yeah, I think it's really, really hard for women. We can see when women move through the criminal justice process, when they're talking about gender-based violence like rape, you know, women are often up against disbelief. It's often very hard to prove.

I mean, of the women that we talked to for this report, nearly 80% said they'd experienced some kind of gender-based violence. So rape, female genital mutilation, excuse me, forced prostitution and so on. Over a third said that they'd been raped by state authorities. A similar number said that they'd been imprisoned by the state. And I think if you're looking at, you know, these are serious human rights abuses that women are fleeing from.

And what's happening is because they're not getting a fair hearing in the asylum process, they're then being made destitute and vulnerable to further violence and abuse, as we heard from Anna. And she's not alone. understand why the British authorities might not be able to grant sanctuary to a gay woman from the Cameroon who poses no threat to anyone, who says herself she would like to contribute to British society and work, and who has been the victim of appalling violence. Absolutely, why can't they? And why is the Home Office putting women through such hardship and such pain. You know, we are working with and supporting women who may be living years destitute and then go through and get their refugee status, their leave to remain. And yet they've spent these wasted years on the streets, you know, on Britain's streets, when they could be, as you say, beginning to rebuild their lives, beginning to contribute to society.

So who does get asylum? Who gets leave to remain in your experience? It can be quite, quite random, but some people obviously do get leave to remain when they have well documented cases. And I think often, it does rely on having a good lawyer at the outset. And you know, the legal aid system has been decimated. But I think, you know, it's also worth highlighting, although women face a lot of exploitation and abuse in the community, a lot of people in communities are really stepping up and helping these women. We produced this report alongside other groups in Manchester, Birmingham, Coventry and Swansea. And we're really struck by how women are coming together and actually speaking up about what's happening to asylum-seeking women. And that does make me hopeful that, you know, there is still the possibility of change,

difficult though that may sometimes seem. Anna's story is, these stories are always complicated, and I suppose you could argue that there are grey areas here. She first came to the country on a tourist visa. She didn't understand asylum. Why would she? How could she? Yeah, but that shouldn't jeopardise her asylum case. No, I'm just explaining. Yeah, we often see that women may make their way here on a student or tourist visa

because you can't claim asylum from your country of origin. So there are different ways that women might make their way here. And then, you know, the problem is then gathering the evidence for the asylum claim when, as Anna made clear, she doesn't really understand at the outset the asylum process, and that's why it's so important to have good legal representation. And that cycle of abuse that Anna was talking about, I mean, she spoke about being in a group at Women for Refugee Women.

She's in the group that we support specifically for LGBT women. She talked about around 20 women. We see over 100 women every week who are going through these kind of experiences. And around a third of them that we spoke to for this report had experienced rape and sexual abuse in this country as well as in their country of origin. So we really see that their trauma is being compounded by these experience of destitution. One of the answers might be, you would assume, a slicker process, more staff. Is that what we're looking at?

Absolutely. I think there needs to be more resourcing in the asylum process itself. And there needs to be a change of policy. We can't have support just cut off immediately that first refusal happens and women just thrown out. Because then it makes it all the harder for women to gather their evidence to rebuild their lives.

You know, 90% of the women in our report said they were hungry, that they were depressed. You know, how are you going to start to rebuild, to find support, you know, to go forward and tell your story when you're facing that kind of trauma? Natasha Walter, thank you very much. Thank you so much. I think we can all agree we don't want to live in a country

where people are sleeping on the night bus and living on a friend's mattress. Absolutely, a fairer world is possible. Well we would we would hope so thank you very much. Now friendship, we're going to start a three-part series on the importance of friendship and different sorts of friendship at different parts of your life and my first two guests are, you're both 19 aren't you? So great, really nice to have you here. Kanira and Rachel both with experience of foster care. Rachel is from Manchester. She's been on the programme before, so it's good to see you again.

You're now well into your second year, aren't you, at uni? Yes, I am, yeah. And what are you studying? Psychology. All right, OK. And Kanira, you have got a proper job. You're working in a nursery in London. I am.

How is that? Is that tough? It's children's nursery, I should say. Yeah, sometimes, but it can be fun most of the time as well. Yeah, but it's hard going, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, as long as you have your experience, then it's much easier than if you're unexperienced going into the industry. OK, well, you do 10-hour shifts, don't you? So I imagine that they're quite challenging.

Yeah, quite long. Towards the end of the day, I bet they are challenging. So how did you get to know each other you two? Kinera first we did meet over social media because I moved back from Southampton a while ago now so I was just on certain apps just trying to look for friends I know sometimes it sounds dangerous

but I mean I did it and I went into her so we were talking for a while but it was kind of like awkward why was it why was it awkward i don't know she's just awkward rachel yeah that's nice what do you say about that rachel i wouldn't say i was awkward i would just say like it was just something new for me because i just moved to london and i was kind of just looking for friends in london because all my friends were based in manchester yeah so it's kind of just hard to figure out what sort of person i'm

like friends with and what sort of people are like and I think it was harder as well because I don't really go on the apps all the time so that's when I did give her my other social media and platforms so we can talk often so then obviously once I went on she was on to like Snapchat and all of that we were talking

like a lot more and then that's how our friendship kind of just started How important is it that you have that shared experience of foster care? What would you say, Kanira? I don't really think about it too much just because being in care to me is not, it's just normal, to be honest. But because I don't really, I don't have any other friends that are in care. It was surprising.

And as well, sometimes it's helpful because like if you talk about something, I don't have to explain it because she knows, she she's been through it so we can just kind of have a conversation about it and then it'll be over as if i'm talking about it to somebody else that doesn't experience that i'll have to explain what i'm saying for them to understand first so i guess it's kind of easier in that way yeah yeah i don't want to over egg it um i suppose it would be too easy to say well because of that that means you're really bonded really quickly yeah but as kanira says rachel maybe it just means there is stuff the stuff you don't need to say because you both understand yeah pretty much like um the experiences we've been

through and the way we communicate with each other about feelings and the way we feel about like keeping our friendship going is very important because we know that you know people have lost people and it's easier to lose people and the fact that we've been together for so long now yeah in what in what sense do you think is there a time of day or maybe night more significantly when you know you could get hold of kanira if you needed to if there is she that person you could call at half past three in the morning yes 100 and i have done it multiple times multiple times um and is that okay with you, Kinira? Oh, yeah. I'm just at home, like, I'm wide awake. You're wide awake.

I mean, that's not in my business, but why are you wide awake after three in the morning? I just don't sleep, really. Teenagers. But that, I mean, that is really important. And I would say that was the measure of a proper friendship, because you know she's going to be there. And when you're at uni, and I imagine, Rachel, you're probably surrounded

by quite a lot of privileged young people who maybe are not the easiest for you to communicate with all the time yeah I definitely agree with university I have such bad anxiety I really struggled going into university and making friends in general but ever since making friends with Kinnear

and communicating with her I'd talk to her before I go into uni and just say like i'm really nervous and she'd be like no don't worry about it just go in see how it goes and it'll be fine like she really supports me with getting into uni and just making other friends really okay are you proud of that canary because you should be yes i'm one of them friends that kind of give the advice but i don't take it myself actually that sounds like me i just dish it out to everyone I dish it out on the radio I don't take it myself you can work that way trust me so do you think you'll always be a part of each other's lives because you are you're only 19 it is really young yeah yeah I think simply yes simply because we didn't meet in normal circumstances

and the fact that despite we don't see each other all the time and it's not like we're uni friends or we live together we're still friends through all of that. So I think we could easily be like longtime friends. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And what about because the people of my generation, eye contact and actually meeting is really important. So you two don't just talk to each other. You actually see each other, Rachel? Yeah, I'd say we see each other not not too much but we do see each other a lot like we facetime a lot we snapchat a lot we instagram a lot it's

definitely more the relationship is definitely sometimes more the phone at certain times in our friendship just because obviously we have our lives to live because she's got uni i've got work so it's difficult when i only have like my weekend sometimes it's to spend with family and obviously other friends as well so it's just a case of when the time comes we meet but we do see each other maybe like twice in a month which is twice in a month wow you see again this is just it just it just brings out generational differences um i have never successfully facetimed anybody oh wow oh no i just i can't do it. Why? Why? Because I'd rather ring them or meet them for a coffee. Oh, no.

We sit on FaceTime for ages and we barely even talk and we just sit there. Yeah, sometimes it's just having their presence. Having their presence is okay. Okay, this is a whole new world. So you'll sit there, both on FaceTime, neither of you saying a word. Pretty much, just doing our things. I'll be just doing some homework or I'll be doing something else and then she'll be cooking or doing whatever.

Because she's there the whole time, so if you want to say something, she's there. You don't have to message her. I'm loving this. It's not weird. It's not weird for your generation. I want this conversation to go into a time capsule and to be played in 150 years time. And it will be called Old Woman Interviews to 19 year olds about their contemporary friendship. It's been really great to see you both.

And I'm glad you're doing so well, Rachel. It's brilliant. Rachel, who's in her second year at uni doing psychology. And Kinera, best of luck to you in your career. I know you're not necessarily certain you're going to stick with the nursery, but you might do something else. Yeah, just to get some other work experience. well it's really good and thank you for coming in appreciate it and there'll be more on friendship a little later in the week when we'll talk to two women who forged a friendship as part of a kind of digital sisterhood quick statement from

the home office the uk has a proud record of providing protection to vulnerable individuals and helping them to rebuild their lives that's's in response to our conversation with Natasha Walter of Women for Refugee Women. That was Jane Garvey, who I think is really underrated. And this is also Jane Garvey, and this is the Woman's Hour podcast. My thanks to everybody who's taken part today. We've just got some more emails actually on loneliness, which I will get to in a second,

because that was the subject of yesterday's programme. But on the subject of HRT, which we talked about today, having stopped HRT yet again, in the hope that the hot flushes had stopped at the age of 73, they are still with me, says one listener. This from Samantha, HRT shortages impacted upon women, their partners, family and work. My husband and children are died too early. I don't think that's the right thing. Ask any demographer or historian researching that field. Well, of course, it's certainly true that 100 years ago, women did not live as long on the whole. But I imagine, of course, that some women did indeed go through the menopause. From Moira, a couple of years ago, I needed to have a joint replacement.

And one month before, I was told by the hospital that I must come off HRT completely. I had taken it for 15 years and benefited hugely. Needless to say, I really suffered when I stopped it completely before the surgery. Apparently there was an increased risk of blood clotting. It's difficult to describe how bad I felt. Another Samantha, I have four patches left. I may have to cut them in half. I hope the supplies begin to appear at the end of the month as promised

but I'm not holding my breath. Samantha is right, it was the end of this month when we are told that things should be getting better. From Rachel on the subject of marriage and the conversation I had with Matt and Anna. Rachel says, I met my husband when I already had an 18 month old. We met and married and get this, had five more children in eight years. 17 years in now, the kids are growing up and I still really like him very much, despite the chaos of running this house with two professional careers to juggle as well. However, my worry is we've never had any time for us.

What happens when they've all gone? I mean, Rachel, don't be too negative. It could be absolutely fabulous. Paul says, thoroughly appreciate the honesty of the two guests, but disagree with some of their comments. In my relationship with my wife, we don't always prioritise my job because I earn more. I value what my wife does, and so I do sacrifice as well. Also, with regards to porn, if my friends made a joke about their favourite porn category, I'd ask them how their wife was doing.

Well, that's good of you. I had a well that's that's good of you I had a most peculiar that's good of you Paul um I had a most peculiar PR email this morning in my inbox um drawing my attention to the most popular searches on porn sites and it contained I think the fascinating nugget of information that every month 270 british people search for porn about airport security staff i don't know i'm as baffled as you probably are and if you're an airport security person i don't know whether you should be flattered or not really now i did say that we are still getting emails about loneliness because that was what we talked about on the program yesterday not a perfect program because none of them are but I thought

there were some really interesting comments made on yesterday's program so if you didn't catch that obviously you can find the podcast um this is from a listener called Pauline who says I'm British but I've been living in a large suburban American city for over 20 years. I'm no longer working and I feel lonely and isolated. I thought my problem was basically my location. I thought the British way of life in towns and villages would mitigate the loneliness but listening yesterday it seems it doesn't. It was a real help to me to hear that so many others are struggling in exactly the same way. I also want to say BBC Radio is a lifeline for me, and I'm sure for many millions of others,

and I'm really concerned about funding decisions in the future. Please tell the Minister for Loneliness and any other relevant politicians how important the BBC is to so many of us around the world. Thank you for that. And what else? Has anybody else, asks the listener, felt stigmatised because they live alone and don't mind? Some people actually appreciate quietness and solitude and enjoy activities for which they don't need others, like playing a musical instrument, listening to the radio or reading. Not everybody likes dogs. No, I know. And dogs do crop up very early on in any conversation about loneliness and isolation. The assumptions that people make about people on their own can cause shame in those of us who are quite happy without constant interruptions and demands. As listeners' comments show, it's possible to be lonely in a crowd, group or family.

The quality of friendship is what matters. And from a listener called Hannah, I was really touched by this conversation today. It also made me think how amazing my woman's circle has been for facilitating a sense of deep connection. I recently started a circle with a group of women from a parent and child group we go to, and then a few people invited somebody else. We don't all know each other or didn't and we weren't all close friends. We meet once a month and hold a sharing circle. It's a safe space where everyone gets a turn to share what's going on for them. Joy, grief, rant in anger, voice something they're processing, anything at all.

Whilst everyone else listens, that's active, engaged listening without interrupting or giving advice afterwards. It feels really good to be heard without people trying to fix you. And from Debbie, a recommendation that the National Women's Register is something worth exploring if you haven't found Solace in, for example, the WI, which I know is an organisation that a lot of people find very helpful, but like everything, not for everyone. The University of the Third Age always crops up as well, a lot of people recommending that. And this from a listener who says, when I divorced in my late 30s, a single friend said to me, you have to go out into the world. It won't come to you. I think that's sadly true. With gritted teeth, says the listener, I joined a local get together and a local political association.

No local real friends before, but suddenly the community started opening up. It gets easier with practice too. On retirement, I joined a choir and I cannot recommend highly enough the friendship and good feeling that has provided. Many new and some close friends now. And one thing can lead to another. It is never too late. Thanks, everybody who is still emailing on that subject. Honestly I think you're giving solace to a lot of people in similar

situations so honestly it's brilliant. Thank you very much for that. Jenny's here tomorrow amongst many other things discussing yet another film of a Jane Austen book. There's a new Emma and the director and the star are both on the programme tomorrow and apparently some of my colleagues have gone off without me,

which isn't unusual, to see a preview of that film. And they really enjoyed it. Well, thanks very much for inviting me. So that's on the programme tomorrow. If you're listening to some other podcast, then stop now and listen to a good one. Because The Infinite Monkey Cage is back for a new series. And we're doing loads of things, aren't we, Robin?

We're going to be dealing with the science of laughter, conspiracy theories, coral reefs, quantum worlds, and finally UFOs. I love UFOs. It's also, by the way, the UFO one available to watch on iPlayer. In fact, all of the series that we've done are available on BBC Sounds. I must say that I wouldn't bother with the first series. I don't think it's very good. I wouldn't bother with the first two. Yeah. But we were played by different people then, I think, weren't we? Yeah.

Melvin Bragg was you. You were Debbie McGee. Debbie McGee. Bragg and McGee. Now that is a 1980s TV detective series that I will be making. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.