Woman's Hour - Hurricane response, Meera Syal & Tanika Gupta, Contraception, Neneh Cherry

Episode Date: October 10, 2024

Hurricane Milton landed today in Florida, battering the US state with winds of around 120 miles per hour. Residents were warned to evacuate for their own safety - but some have stayed. Professor of Risk and Hazard at Durham University Lucy Easthope joins Anita Rani to look at the women who stay behind in these situations, and their reasons behind this, as well as whether disaster planning reflects gender differences.A Tupperware of Ashes is a play which follows an ambitious Michelin-Star chef, Queenie, played by Meera Syal. It's a family drama about life, immigration and the Indian spiritual cycle of death and rebirth written by playwright Tanika Gupta. Both women join Anita to talk about the play which is currently on at the National Theatre. A new report from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, BPAS, looks into what women want from contraception, the innovations in non-hormonal contraception, and the contraceptive options available to men. Anita is joined by CEO of BPAS Heidi Stewart and 28-year-old Charlotte whose contraceptive pill gave her severe migraines for more than two years before the connection was made. Swedish singer-songwriter, rapper and producer Neneh Cherry first achieved global success in 1988 with her hit Buffalo Stance. She now has released a beautiful and personal memoir, A Thousand Threads. Neneh joins Anita to talk more about her life and career, and the stories she tells in the book. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Today we'll be looking into how people in America responded to the extreme weather evacuation orders. Who decided to go and who stayed? Why did they stay? And what part does gender have to play in the choices people make? We'll also be discussing contraception as a new survey has been conducted to see what needs to be included in a conversation around contraception

innovation. And we have quite a line-up of guests today. I'd say a powerhouse. Playwright Tanika Gupta and multi-talented actor Meera Sayal have a new play on at the National Theatre in London, A Tupperware of Ashes, which explores the story of a woman experiencing early-onset Alzheimer's. It's already getting rave reviews. Plus, Nena Cherry, the singer, songwriter and producer, has written an autobiography

and I'm delighted to say will be in the studio to tell us about her extraordinary life and her extraordinary mother. Mothers, and particularly the loss of mothers, will be spoken about in the programme today. And if you'd like to share your own stories of losing your mothers and what that did to you, how you reacted dealt with the grief maybe you're now seeing traits of your mother in yourself how does she live on in you or what you have to thank her for or not as the case may be not everybody gets on with their mother after all please do get in touch go on tell me about your mother this morning you can text me on 84844 you can email me via our website.

You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour and the WhatsApp number is 03700 100 444. But first, as we've been hearing in the news, Hurricane Milton has made landfall in Florida, battering the land with winds of around 120 miles per hour. More than two million homes and businesses are without power, and there have been a number of deaths reported on the Atlantic coast. Residents are warned to evacuate for their own safety, but there are some people who've stayed. This morning, we want to look at the women who stayed behind.

Is it because they won't leave or because they can't leave? It's women who usually have the primary it because they won't leave or because they can't leave? It's women who usually have the primary responsibility for caring for a home, including children, older family members and people with disabilities. Does disaster planning reflect this? Nia is a nurse at a hospital in Florida. She spoke to Victoria Awonghunda, BBC World Service, earlier. Thankfully, this is my time to rest so I can kind of clear my mind as much as I can so I can get up and start another day. Are you able to go home? Not until the storm is over.

We've committed to being here through the whole experience. So this is what we do. We take care of others. Who is taking care of you? I think we're all supporting each other through this. We do have a very supportive community, and I believe that's what's going to get us through this. Well, earlier, I spoke to Lucy Eastholt, Professor of Risk and Hazard at Durham University, co-founder of the After Disaster Network.

I asked her whether gender was a big factor when it comes to how people are affected by disasters. It's a very messy picture, as often things are. But we do know it's a factor. And also we include in a lot of our research other groups that are disproportionately affected. Their risk is much higher. So people with disabilities and LGBTQ are much more likely to suffer negative consequences in certain types of disaster. The data, as I say, isn't always clear. So, for example, in 9-11, there's a higher death toll in men.

And that was often because there was a greater number of male responders to certain aspects of that. Yeah and I guess what's what's fascinating us or what we want to dig into a little bit is specifically with what's happening in America because it's well Florida it's such a wealthy state. And that really doesn't make any difference to what we see it sounds like it should but it doesn't and sometimes in to what we see. It sounds like it should, but it doesn't. And sometimes, in fact, wealth and capitalism and disaster capitalism make decisions that mean that actually people are put in more harm. You know, some of the big theme parks, for example, only closed yesterday. So maybe your job would be at risk if you didn't leave.

Women have job responsibilities. They have caring responsibilities. Evacuation, going somewhere else, costs money. People don't have the wiggle room in the household budget. Well, we know that according to the Centre for Disaster Philanthropy, almost 80% of the people who stayed after calls for evacuation from New Orleans because of Katrina, as you've just mentioned, in 2005, were women. And often they were older women. One of the things we sometimes worry about in disaster response, we saw a lot of this in the pandemic, is coercion within relationships

and perhaps quite a subtle coercion, just the way people have played out their relationship for years. If the husband says they'll stay, they'll stay. Women are also often caregivers. They felt they couldn't leave, for example, a very older relative who was in their sole care so there's many reasons why that is um one of the things that we found was that the older women in katrina had been very affected by surviving a number of earlier hurricanes and felt

that they could get through this one so past experience might be very relevant here. And just the effort, labour, money, resource that goes into evacuation. And one thing I would say is that the lessons that we're about to see play out over the next 72 hours, very difficult to watch from across the ocean, are exactly the same issues we would face in Britain. There's been a lot of focus on the men's prisons, for example, in Florida. There are also many women prisoners. We probably won't face a hurricane and tornadoes like this, but we do have a very high risk of severe coastal inundation. So we need to talk about these issues in UK emergency planning as well. And women, if you're running the household or you're the primary caregiver, it's not just yourself that you're thinking about.

Absolutely not. And one of the things we sometimes see quite understandably is high levels of assumption in our family household plans about preparedness. So people, for example, think being on the priority list for our power suppliers will give them extra support in a disaster. It doesn't. And if you are a caregiver, one thing I do is regularly re-up social media posts about how to think about your household preparedness. It's really important, particularly as we go into another difficult winter. Well, you'd hope that that would be in place already. It isn't, I have to say. And so one of the things I think we will see are people very reluctant to evacuate should we need to do the same in the UK because of caregiving responsibilities. But also, And so one of the things I think we will see are people very reluctant to evacuate. Should we need to do the same in the UK because of caregiving responsibilities? But also a real understanding at central government of what we are asking people when we ask them to move. America has a slightly more advanced structure. It has the federal emergency management agency structure.

We are still building that in the UK, which I think comes as a surprise to people who have very right and justified high expectation of central government, which still isn't in place. And you wonder then how many women or are women even being thought about when this disaster planning is happening? Is gender considered? It is, but often our balance has shifted in our field. So in 1997, we were 70 percent white male. That's an issue in emergency response. The gender issues are challenged beautifully, for example, in the musical Come From Away, which is about the aftermath of 9-11 and the refugees who arrive in Gander off the planes that have been held in airspace. And for example, a lot of our plans miss things like period products. In a review that I did last year,

there was very, very little attention to things like how to feed a baby. Anecdotally, we think we saw about a 20% decrease in breastfeeding in the aftermath of the Grenfell disaster. We know that things like halal food are not properly considered. Our plans are written with a military bent and with a very white male focus and another thing that we've been thinking about is who chooses to stay and who chooses to go and why and we've heard we heard about the comments made by Tampa Mayor Jane Castor she said if people choose not to evacuate during Hurricane Milton they would die who does this rhetoric work on

it's a new tactic that we see a lot. We saw it in the pandemic of the use of fear messaging. In my line of work, I'm very adamant that it doesn't work. What disaster management scholars are calling for is that we meet people where they are, we find out why they aren't evacuating, and we support them. There is always a small element of personal choice in this. And I think people have wanted to be very stark about that and very upfront about that. But really, there is not always enough done by places to think about the reasons. And one really big shocker for me yesterday is this workplace precarity. The idea that your workplace might tell you to stay, thus missing your chance to evacuate,

is something that I really hope Floridians are calling their central state leaders to account for. And sort of machismo and pride, because we've all watched the sort of interviews pop up of people saying they're staying, you know, they're battening down the hatches and no one's going to make them leave their home. Why is it men wanting to stay and protect their homes or is it men? There is a definite link to prepping culture and kind of Armageddon and militaristic bent. I obviously try and challenge that. I'm a big fan of emergency preparedness. But without a doubt, that's something we've seen in the social media the last few days is linking, I will stay and defend with a very militaristic idea. The other thing is practically

the options that are given to you if you don't stay are often very mediocre. They're not good enough. But what I think this has confronted is that this is very, very much a life or death situation. And the shelters and other things that are available are probably people's greatest hope of getting through the next few days. And as we know that then, you know, disproportionately people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are worse off

and presumably then women of colour are even worse off than that. Absolutely. And I think it's really important. It is. I'll be resharing some links today. It's such a big area of disaster management research it's not neglected as a as a topic what is neglected is what to do about it and uh people that that's why one of the hashtags i'm very fond of is no natural disaster these are not weather events they are these are weather events meeting human frailties hubris existing racism existing classism, existing sexism, engineering failures, arrogance and state failing. And so I am very passionate that these are not framed here or in America as natural disaster.

Lucy Easthope speaking to me there. And you can get the latest updates on Hurricane Milton on the BBC News website. Text number if you'd like to get in touch with me is 84844. Now for a really extraordinary play. A Tupperware of Ashes follows an ambitious Michelin star chef Queenie but when her children notice gaps in her memory they're faced with a choice no child wants to make. It's a family drama about life, immigration and the Indian spiritual cycle of Rebirth, written by playwright Tanika Gupta. You may have heard Tanika's adaptation of A Doll's House on Radio 3, just one of her many, many works. Queenie is played by Meera Sayal.

You'll need no introduction to Meera and her glittering career, bagging herself the BAFTA Fellowship Award last year for shows such as Goodness Gracious Me, or more recently, Mrs Sidhu Investigates. Both Tanika and Meera, I'm delighted to say, join me now. Welcome, both of you. Hello. Tanika, I want to come to you first.

Hello, Meera. Meera via Zoom, presumably because you're exhausted. You did two shows yesterday. Yes, and I've got Tom Waits' voice at the moment, as you can probably hear. I'm hoping he'll get to Minnie Mouse by the end of the day. Well, congratulations, because the reviews already are, you know, outstanding. This has been a long time in the making, hasn't it, Tanika?

How does it feel finally seeing it come to life? On at the National as well. Yeah, well, it's been about four years since it was commissioned. But I was always commissioned to write a play for Mira. So although I've been writing it for years, I've been in cahoots with Mira about what I was going to write about. And so that's been a really joyous process. And your mates as well.

So you get to hang out and work together. That's true. That's the best bit. So what's it about? Well, you've basically told the story in a nutshell, which is about Queenie, who goes through the process of early onset dementia, Alzheimer's, and it's the effect it has on her children.

But even though that sounds very, very grim, the story is also about her memories and about her remembering her husband who died 20 years before, who comes back to basically guide her. And Mira, you play Queenie. Tell us about her. Who is she? I think she's a collision of all those incredible matriarchs that we all grew up with who were backbones of steel, very tough on their kids. But when you're living with it, you don't like it much. But as you get older, you begin to appreciate the incredible strength it took to come to this country and survive and bring your kids up. She's a high achiever. And she's not a very nice mother to be honest she's been a very hard mother to them and that complicates an already complicated family dynamic because it's hard enough to look after an ailing parent when you have a good relationship but when you've had quite a

difficult one even more things come to the fore so I love the fact that she's written in a completely unsentimental way, in a real way. Tanika's gift is that she's balanced that with ultimately sympathy for Queenie as well. I understand there are hints of King Lear behind the character in the writing. Well, that was the original commission, that I was going to write a version of King Lear for Meera, but then as the play progressed I thought no we want to make

it more modern we want to make it about now we want to make it about social care and you know how you look after the elderly in our community. Why where did that subject come from? Well it came from both me and Mira we were both going through similar situations of our mothers well in I'll let Mira speak for herself but certainly my mother died six years ago and during that time i was very privileged to be with her while she died but there were so many strange things that were happening hallucinations and you know on the one hand you could say it was the morphine but on the other hand it kind of felt something quite profound was happening that she

kept seeing people who were coming back for her who were guiding her. Mira on your own experience yeah well sadly I've had very personal experience of Alzheimer's my father died of it he was um he suffered from it for seven years um and then my mum got a very rare form of dementia in her last few months of life but previous to that she'd been living with us and me and my brother shared care for over a decade so Tanuka and I used to hold each other up during those difficult days um and share our experiences and it is a privilege but it's also very hard and you become acutely aware of how alone you are as a carer as a family carer there's so little support financially and emotionally and it's hugely expensive and it drains you on every

level and millions of people are going through it and when we were going through it and also for both of us there are added cultural expectations and pressures which are all explained in the play but when we were holding each other up and crying on each other's shoulders and crying for the parents we were losing slowly um we you know i Losing slowly. You know, I used to say to Seneca, you have to write about this because people need to have the cathartic experience of sharing this pain and also sometimes the joy of it. And I think that's why we've had such extraordinary reactions to the play because so many people are sitting there and we can hear them and see them crying and laughing with us and then we know

they're going through it as you were talking about that mirror i thought that's that's that'll be why people are reacting to it because of the emotion and the experience of the two of you talking about this holding each other up was it's all there it's all in the writing um you mentioned there that you've just you know you talk about the sort of stigma and the taboos within the South Asian culture dealing with this. And one of those is, you know, the putting your parents into a care home. Yes. Well, I mean, it's very difficult in this country to, you know, we don't have servants and wider family that will help us with that. So it literally comes down to the immediate family. And sometimes that's impossible.

And there is a stigma. I mean, I remember all my aunties saying to me, you absolutely have to look after your mother. You cannot put her in a home. You cannot put her in a home. And even at the end, my mum was saying, put me in a home so that I can get cared for. I was just like... was saying put me in a home so that I can get cared for and then you also explore what happens when South Asian people are put into care homes yeah I mean there there obviously are lots of Asian care homes now that do cater but but often it's you know we you know our elderly are going

into care homes where there is no recognition of their culture. So, you know, they're getting shepherd's pie and peas for dinner and that is completely alien to them. And often they lose their language and so they revert back to their mother tongue and cannot actually remember how to speak English. That also is a big problem. So, yeah, I it's it's ongoing something that I think people probably don't even think about Mira yes um well certainly for my father he was a great care home but wasn't culturally specific to him and My mum spent her last few months in a brilliant care home, which was run by a Punjabi woman. It was her own business. There were only 20 residents. All the staff were

Punjabi, spoke Punjabi, the food was. And for my mum, it felt like she was sitting with all her friends. And it was such a relief for us to know that she felt at home. So these things are really important. And as Tanika said, as you lose language, just things like the carers call you auntie. Yeah, something as simple as that. Which is what you would expect for someone from your own family. And the food that you eat and the music that you're listening to,

all of it, all of it's so important. There's so much humanity in this play because you also look at who is looking after our elderly within these care homes. There is a character in there. Well, in fact, there's an actor in there who's the one white actor in the whole show. And he plays a multiple array of characters from The Doctor to The Lawyer. But I think one of the audience's favourite characters is Pavel, who's the care worker. And whilst the children are worrying that their mother is in a care home,

during COVID as well, so they can't even visit, and nobody's looking after her, actually Pavel is the one who is absolutely, you know, sympathetic and beautiful with her and just allows her to be who she is. And he has definitely been very, very well received as a character, as an actor, but also because it just shows how important those carers are. They're the people that are looking after our parents.

And Pavel is also not English. He is Polish. Yeah, we've had so much amazing feedback from people who work in the caring profession thanking Tanika for portraying carers and what they really do and certainly that was the irony for for me that with both my parents the majority of their carers were from immigrant backgrounds, being paid very, very little and had abandoned and were not seeing their own families and parents in order to look after our parents. What a privilege. And we pay them so little. And there is a real crisis in care at the moment in this country. And there's a tsunami that's already on us. One in three people in this country will be hit by alzheimer's or

dementia it's the uk's biggest killer right now more than cancer and we are not prepared for it and you are able to put on this play tanika and begin that conversation a really important conversation yeah yeah and also we we were very very lucky that we got to work with puja guy the director yes i need to put the holy tr trinity of South Asian powerhouse women telling stories. Pooja Gai from Tamasha. Yes, and Pooja is someone that I've worked with on multiple occasions. So this is, I think, my fifth production with her. But also Mira and I are very,

well, we've wanted to work together for a long, long time. Almost 20 years we've been talking about it. So for us to get into a room with Pooja directing us has been amazing. Can I ask you, Mira, what that experience is like? So people are saying that you are extraordinary in this. I mean, Tanika. Yeah.

And my producer went to see it. Everyone is saying that it's all about Mira. She's just incredible. Thank you. How did you get into the frame of mind to play Queenie? That's one of them. But also, how important was it to have Tanika and Pooja in front, you know, on the other side of the stage directing you?

Well, the team you have is everything. And, you know, I must say thank you for that. But it's about the entire team that's created this magic not just me have an amazing cast amazing creatives on it many mostly women which is kind of incredible um I suppose sometimes you just wait for that part where you connect on every level and for me this was such a personal project because I do feel I'm telling my parents story and the story of many other parents and children I've seen going through it and whilst you don't have to always have personal

experience of every role you play I think with this one it really does inform what you bring to it I relive a lot of what I felt and saw what my mother felt and saw every night and while that's painful it's also such an honour to share that story because I know from what we're getting back from the audience that it's a conversation we need to have and for me this is what theatre is about and where it's at its most powerful, when we are sharing those communal experiences that need to be shared. And I hope that people come out of it not feeling grim, but feeling lighter. Because the message of the play is love endures, even beyond death, love endures. Oh, yeah, you've also explored the spiritual side of death in this, haven't you?

Yes, no, absolutely. And we've got the wonderful Zubin Vala, who also sings with Meera in the show. Oh, wonderful. With music written by Nisansorni. So he's a kind of mischievous, puck-like figure who comes back to guide her back to the afterlife. And all the way through, he's trying to pull her back to to the afterlife and um all the way through he's trying

to pull her into the other world so so only queenie can see him uh which kind of is a you know symbolism of the alzheimer's as well so you can look at it on two levels you can either say that's the alzheimer's or you can say he really is there yeah well it was your experience when you're talking about your own mother yeah um it's's also very funny, despite the serious themes. Why was it important to bring humour? Well, both myself and Mira are funny people. Yes, you are. We do like a good gag. And if I wrote a gag, Mira would always improve on it. How bad were they to start with?

What's it like writing for your mate? It's been wonderful, actually. It's been very, yeah. Is she easy to write for? Yeah, yeah. Well, she's very collaborative. And that's what's so great about theatre, that it's very collaborative.

Yeah, what was your experience like working with Tanika on this? Just a joy. Tanika Rampuja. I mean, honestly, to be working with two of your best mates on a play you love, with people you love and telling a story you love, it's the dream job. And it's amazing being at the National. They have been so supportive and, you know, really wanted to put this play on.

And it's just a joy. Just how special is it to bring a play about South Asians to a theatre as iconic as the National? Well, it's very important. They need to tell more of our stories, basically. And, yeah, I mean, they've been very supportive, but I wish there'd be more, to be honest, in the future, not just by myself, but by others as well. When was the last time you had something on at the National?

Well, it was 20 years ago. I mean, I had a play on in what is now the Dorfman, was The Cottesloe with Shabana Azmi in 2000, directed by Indy Rubasingham. And after that, a couple of plays after that, but then nothing for 20 years at the National. So it's really not, it feels like coming home to me. Mira, I mean, you've spoken about this

and that incredible speech you made on stage at the BAFTA's last year. You spoke about the importance of our stories and where we are. And you honoured your parents there as well on stage by telling us their story. There was not a dry eye in my brown... Certainly my brown eyes were not dry that day.

So what does it feel like being on stage, telling this such a deeply personal story every night and getting standing ovations um it feels i think as tanika said important that we're there um it's obviously an honor to be able to tell their stories and i it's the national theater we should be there of course um but i think asika said, it will be nice to see more of that represented because we sold out before we'd, you know, we were 50% sold when it was announced and we completely sold out within a week and a half of opening. I think just from a business point of view, for anyone listening,

our brand stories do sell and people are hungry for them and actually the point is it's not a brown story it's a universal story told through a specific cultural lens and in the end the best stories are universal and that's kind of how they need to look at our stories they're for everyone oh well wonderful um and actually we're getting lots of messages from people coming in talking about their own mothers. And so the story, as you say, is universal. It's been such a joy speaking to both of you.

Congratulations once again. It's Tupperware of Ashes. It's playing at the Dorfman Theatre. It's part of the National Theatre until the 16th of November. Sold out. There's still tickets available. Still tickets available.

Still tickets available. Still tickets available. Tanika Gupta and Mirasel, thank you so much for joining me to talk about that. Thank you. Thank you. 8484. Thanks, Mira. 84844 is the number. And lots of you getting in touch to share your own stories about your mothers.

Someone here has said, I lost my wonderful mum, Connie, in 2002. I was 30 and a young mum myself. I felt like my world had ended. But what I found out as time went on was that unbeknownst to me, my mother had imparted me with so much knowledge, wisdom and essential tools to deal with life. I didn't even know I was paying attention at the time

and her superpower was to make sure she gave me all she knew. She will always be my hero. Carmen says, My mum, Bridgetget was more worried about us losing our imaginations than our virginity she believed education was freedom and made so many sacrifices to help me and my sister through university losing her was complicated she was diagnosed with dementia in 2020 and went into a care home i regret that now i wish there was support to keep loved ones at home, to adapt the home and establish

routines for loved ones who have complex care needs. When she passed in the home, I was not able to be with her as I had COVID. My grief is entangled with guilt. I miss her so much. And one more here. When I was 31, I collapsed from a pulmonary embolism at work. In my out of it state, I called out for my mother.. My mother died from early-onset dementia in 2020. I'm now 46. To this day, I find myself saying, Mummy, any time I'm in a difficult situation. 844, that number to text.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, how do you feel about contraception? Do you or did you take it? I wonder what your experience was and what you would change if you could.

These questions and more are what the charity, the British Pregnancy Advisory Service or BPAS are asking in a new report that's hoping to start a conversation around changing attitudes to contraception and what could be changed in the future. Of course, hormonal contraception has been and remains revolutionary for women, not only in terms of controlling fertility, but also enabling women to regulate their periods, alleviate symptoms like period pain and manage conditions like endometriosis. Well, I'm joined now by Charlotte, who's 28. Her contraceptive pill gave her severe migraines for more than two years before the connection was made with what was causing the problem. Also joining me is Heidi Stewart, the CEO of BPAS. Welcome to both of you. Heidi, I'm going to come to you first.

BPAS wants a national conversation around contraception. Why? I mean, quite simply, women are being let down. We've got too many women falling through the cracks in our healthcare system. They're struggling to access the contraception when they need it. And there's been no major innovation in contraception since the 1960s. BPAS has prided itself on always having women's backs. And this report continues in the BPAS way. We want to start a real national conversation, one that really listens to women and pushes for those changes. Charlotte, do you agree? A national conversation, is that what needs to happen?

Oh, absolutely. I'm so used to having this kind of stigma around it and not discussing things I think a really interesting example is when I was on so this is separate to even the migraine incident it's just thinking back over every time I've had contraception there's always been something that went wrong so I was on the progesterone only pill for a short period and it was the most depressed I felt consistently over about two weeks I describe it as I was stuck on a three or a four out of ten I was sort of spotting and bleeding all the time I was either on the verge of tears or just wanting to hit someone and it was actually really interesting because my brother's reaction we were on a family holiday and we just said oh I'm I'm

really sorry I'm acting like this etc etc and he just his reaction to me talking about it wasn't like shame or don't ever talk to me again. It was I'm so sorry that this has happened. And all of a sudden it opened the story in my mind of going, this isn't something we should be ashamed of. This is something that's happened to me. And it really didn't need to. Heidi, BPAS did a survey with more than a thousand women aged 18 to 45. You've probably heard stories like that, numerous stories like Charlotte's, because you're asking them about their use and attitudes to contraception. So let's find out

what were the key findings? Yes, so we were looking at the current contraceptive landscape, what women were using, what barriers they faced in accessing, and crucially, what appetite there was for further innovation so that we didn't have to hear stories like Charlotte's and the results were really telling. We found that nearly half of women at 49% faced barriers to even accessing the contraception they wanted whether that was from being unable to get a GP appointment or to families and partners blocking access. 49% said it was a huge concern. And I think on top of that, what we noticed was there was a real dissatisfaction with the side effects that Charlotte's talked about around hormonal methods. 84% of the women that spoke to us had switched

their methods at least once. It is only a snapshot, but it does show a clear need for better options, more access for women. And a lot of women just don't want the same old hormonal contraception choices that they've been given since the 1960s. How did the answers change depending on the age of women? Because, you know, 18 to 45 is quite a range. It was quite a range, but actually we found commonality through all of it. The biggest issue was around the hormonal contraception, the side effects. And Charlotte's touched on some of that range from hair loss, some range from depression, anxiety and also weight gain. So Charlotte, what did you choose to do?

Well, it was sort of a choice that was almost made for me. When I was on the combined pill, which is the one that I'd had for years, the progesterone only was only because I changed DP. And every time you change DP, you have to go in and they have to check your height and weight again. And then you can go back on. And it's just a massive palaver. And that's when you have the time to take off work to do that. But I remember sitting in the doctor's surgery saying, right, okay, you've got my height and weight. Can I go back on the combined pill? It's been working just fine. And then he said, you just told me you get migraines. And I said, well, yes. And he said, there's no way you should

be on this. You should never have been on this. And I just sort of looked at him and I went, well, I don't, I don't really know what to do. And sort of out of the options, I went, I'll go with coil, which is a whole conversation with itself. But I remember just feeling that I'd been let down. Why was it up to me to know that my migraine stopped? Like, all of my issues were related to this. As soon as I came off the combined, my migraines dropped about tenfold. And I just thought, that's so many days of my life that I just could have had. And what kind of conversations have you been having with your friends?

Have they gone through similar things? Honestly, quite often it's worse. I thought it was interesting when I was sort of discussing this and I had a friend only yesterday just brought up that when she had her coil in, it took them about four times and I just thought it was horrific the first time so I couldn't imagine her going through that. I had friends who, like me, they were just feeling really headachy and ill

and they would go into medical professionals and say, oh, I really think it's tied to this. And, you know, every time I take this, I feel like this. And just being told that they were wrong, it was in their head. Also just being told things that just weren't true. Like, oh, it's no link to depression at all. It's no link to how you're feeling. And I was like, well, notoriously, I know my cycle, even if I wasn't on anything, impacts how I'm feeling. So why would taking a hormone not impact how I'm feeling?

It just doesn't make any sense. Heidi, how many options do women actually have when it comes to something like the pill? So in terms of options, you've got the combined, the hormonal, but there's been no innovation at all in the last 60 years in reality. I mean, there are a number of other contraception options out there, but they are limited. And what we've not seen is any investment, any innovations, any research into that whole area for so long now. I mean, of course, I must mention that there are plenty of women who have no problems with their contraceptive pill at all. But of course, it's good that we are

discussing the issues that arise um what are the side effects well what can they be so the majority of women that spoke to us said that those included anxiety mood swings obviously changes in weight um but we also had women talk to us about quite severe depression and hair loss. These aren't minor inconveniences. For some, they're actually quite life-changing impacts that make it really hard to stay on hormonal methods long term, which is why we're calling for more choice and innovation in the non-hormonal contraception options for women. I want to talk about something else that comes up in the report, contragestives. What are they and how do they

work? What's a contragestive? A great question. So they are, a contragestive is a bit of a hard sell, let's be honest. Contragestive is not known as a word and nobody's actually heard of them. So what you're saying is what most people say to us. But in essence, a contragestive is a non-hormonal pill that can be taken regularly whether that's weekly or monthly it can also be taken on demand or to either prevent implantation or to shed the womb lining once implantation has occurred and what they do is they put the the fertility in the hands of women they offer a new way for women to control their fertility without relying on synthetic hormones. Crucially, though, they offer a huge amount of flexibility. What about putting fertility in the hands of men?

I saw that in the report women were overwhelmingly supportive. 76% of their male sexual partners using long-term acting reversible contraceptives and trust them to do so reliably. Were you surprised by that? Not at all. I think women are tired of carrying the whole burden of contraception alone and they're ready for male partners to share that responsibility, especially those in long-term relationships.

And it's quite a shift that I think we've needed for a long time. When you think about it, women are only fertile for a few days a month, and yet men are fertile every day of the year. So it is time to share the load, really. Is it something you'd consider? What about your friend, Charlotte? Oh, absolutely. It was quite funny chatting to friends about this because a friend did say, well, a guy can get someone pregnant 30 days out of 30 in a month, and I can't really do that. But yeah, it's something I'm's something and yet it's our responsibility yes it always is funny that um yeah um it is something I've actually talked about with my like previous male partners and things because it's

just I want to know their opinion on it and what they said oh well I didn't tell them I was like I would treat it as a red flag if they say oh absolutely not um but no they have been like sort of a bit cautious because what's interesting then is actually I think with a few of them they notice for the first time they go oh well you know you say there are side effects but what are they and I was like so you weren't interested before you were just kind of nodding along but now you actually are interested because it might impact you and that I think is very telling um I should say my current partner was very very good and he was very very supportive But yes, it is something that I just thought it's always seen as effectively it's your dirty little secret. You sort it out in your magical, mysterious female ways, which is very odd.

How close are we, Heidi, to those being available? So there has been exciting progress with male contraceptives, particularly with the gels. And the gel is applied daily to the shoulders. And what it does is it combines two hormones which effectively reduces sperm production it's totally reversible which means fertility can return to normal after stopping use it is in phase of trials where the results were expected in 2025 so watch this space um and what do you hope will happen now so we are actually really optimistic for the future we've seen a lot of support from health care professionals from this report who understand the challenges firsthand bodies such as our cog but they know that women deserve better access and more options and they're eager for solutions that ultimately make their jobs easier like

reducing the long wait times and providing better choices um we've had the wonderful wonderful caroline perez who's written our forward to our report and she captures it really perfectly that just says it is absolutely time for change and our hope is this report sparks real action we need more investment in contraceptive services, faster access and a commitment to new non-hormonal methods like contragestives. It's time to move beyond talking about them and actually implementing change. And as BPAS has always said, it's actually time to start listening to women. Yeah. And maybe your boyfriend should have the option of taking the pill as well. Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining me both of you Heidi Stewart and Charlotte and of course

it's important to say that if you have any questions or concerns about the method of contraception you're currently using you should always see your GP and get medical advice before making any changes thank you Charlotte and thank you Heidi Penny's been in touch to say so happy to hear you discussing contraceptive pill problems. I suffered depression for 10 years, only discovering when I stopped taking the pill to have children, they were causing it. GP never mentioned depression until I said she should have recommended I have a baby as that, I thought, cured my depression. And lots of you getting in touch with messages about your mothers. Someone says, I find myself saying, oh, mum, I understand what you mean now.

Her favourite saying was, it's a funny old life. The older I get, the more I agree with her, just as I had time when she wasn't there. Advice, slow down. You think you have all the time, but you don't. Love your mum. 844 is the number now. The Swedish singer, songwriter, rapper, producer, Nena Cherry. I'm going to add author to that list.

Very good. This sort of sounds quite grand. It's quite grand. You are quite grand. Hi. It's lovely to have you here. It's so nice. It's so nice to be here.

I don't think I've ever been on Woman's Hour. You were waiting for me to get old enough to be, because I mean, this is all going to come out anyway. I'm just going to do the quick fangirl, you know, watching you. You achieved global success in 1988 with Buffalo Stance. And the world, including little me, set up and paid attention. When we first saw you on Top of the Pops, you were in that gold bra, the gold bomber jacket, glor up and paid attention. When we first saw you on Top of the Pops, you were in that gold bra, the gold bomber jacket,

gloriously seven months pregnant. And a whole generation of us were transfixed. You know, the mix of genres in your music, and then we've watched your career. You've gone on to win two Brit Awards, an MTV Europe Music Awards, nominated for a Grammy for Best New Artist. And now she's released a beautiful and deeply personal memoir, A Thousand Threads. and MTV Europe Music Awards, nominated for a Grammy for Best New Artist.

And now she's released a beautiful and deeply personal memoir, A Thousand Threads. I'm delighted to say she joins me now live in the studio. Thank you. Nenna Chewy. Yeah, it feels very spectacular. Great to be here. Thank you. And to talk about this beautifully written book of your extraordinary life.

I'm going to start at the beginning about your upbringing because you take us right to the beginning. And it is extraordinary life. And you I feel like this entire book is honoring your remarkable mother, Swedish mother, Moki. Moki. Tell us about Moki. Moki was it's interesting. I turned 60 in March. How are you 60? I know, this is what I was wondering. How did I become 60? It took four years to write the book, Door to Door, you know, and so I wasn't quite 60 when I started it. But I think that was part of the kind of need to do it was like, how is this even possible?

How am I here? I'm like fine with it, but I need to just be with the journey and honor it. And I went actually right to the top. I did start at the top and I did end up kind of writing it chronologically. And actually the most kind of appealing thing, or to me the most interesting part of it was to kind of go and be with my mother and some of my ancestors

and even the people that came before that because, you know, it's, it's who we are, isn't it? And kind of knowing your past is understanding who you are and like, why you are who you are. And my mother, of course, is a huge part of that. My mother was, she was kind of very humble and very deep, but she was also kind of fearless. I mean, in Stockholm in the 60s, she was one of the first people to cut her hair really short. You know, she went out on the street. Nothing was going to stop her.

But, you know, some man, some man was really upset and basically started hitting her with his newspaper you know but there was no way that she was going to turn back and you know go out and buy a wig to cover it up yeah she carried on you know and she she was one of the first women there to you know wear very short skirts and but she was a she was a very passionate human being and an artist and phenomenally creative she was an artist i mean she was an artist i feel like her creativity was kind of in everything that she did and she did many amazing things including having you including with uh um your father amadou who amadou jaya who was who was from Sierra Leone. Yes.

And it was your, and your stepfather, Dom Cherry. Yep. Was an American jazz musician. I mean, a real mix of cultures. Describe what that household was like being surrounded by music and all that creativity. It was alive. You know, it was a living, breathing household. And I think when I think about like my mother and her peers and, you know, my father Amadou and Don, I feel like their creative community, you know, they were kind of changing the world, you know, and it was all there. It was like changing family, society, like the way that you can do things. And they lived by those. So the revolution wasn't like, okay, well, I'm going to get up and go to work today. It was like, it was an ongoing thing. And like in my

house, I mean, we listened to a lot of music. What were you listening to? Well, you know, my parents, of course, there was a lot of jazz. There was a lot of amazing singers like Nina Simone and Aretha Franklin. There was a lot of contemporary music. But there was also a lot of music from around the world globally because i think they were also my parents were really interested in in in world culture you know so we listened to indian music we listened to african we listened to all of it yeah also you

you have quite a itinerant life as well because you live between Sweden, which is where you were born, and then you spend a bit of time in America and the UK. And in New York, you were in the Chelsea Hotel? Yeah, the Chelsea was like the go-to when we would just kind of get into town and we were looking, needing somewhere to stay. And until 1977, my family, we moved into a loft in long island city all of this is in the book but um sort of prior to that we would sublet places on a short-term um basis and the chelsea was kind of you know where we would go and uh maybe spend two weeks

or something and it was it was a it was kind of a crazy place. So before we've even got to your life and your life in music, your parents' life was so remarkable. And you're like, oh, right, okay, that makes sense. No wonder. And then there's this amazing, you know, you read the book and you think, goodness me, Nene, your life sort of traverses so much change and exciting times in music.

And you're at the heart of all of it. Punk, hip-hophop trip-hop um because you came to london in your teens and you loved punk the clash sex pistols polystar in the slits and you were in a you you were friends with ari up and you lived in a squat yeah first um i became friends with ari and uh we kind of, you know, we were teenagers. So we were like kind of inseparable in the way where you're like sharing your clothes and like doing everything together. And we were initially living at her mother's house, Nora, who was also married to John Lydon. She had Alzheimer's actually and died, unfortunately, really sadly recently. But so we were shacked up in her house and I think she just got really annoyed with us.

So she was like, I've seen an empty house down the road that you can squat. I have a friend that can help you. Please go there. So we moved in there and lived there for about a year until I met,

got together with my first husband. And I got pregnant very young. And there was a lot. And you were pregnant very, very young. Yeah, I was 17. I was 18 when I had Naima, my firstborn. But, you know, meeting Ari and the other members of the Slits, and there was a kind of like a domino effect. It was the community. I mean, London's big, but it's also small. And there was a kind of like a domino effect. It was the community.

I mean, London's big, but it's also small. And there was a lot going on and there was a lot of the mixture, the cultural mixture of music and sounds. And there was like punk, there was reggae sound system culture. There was the music that kind of punk was discovering and finding itself through. I think that that time when I came in the 1980s was very much about exploring and then hip hop, which was, you know, everything. And then Buffalo Stance came out in 1988. How do you

remember how empowered you felt when you're on Top of the Pops performing that? I mean, a part of me was terrified because, you know, Top of the Pops was like iconic and, you know, that's it. You made it. On Top of the Pops, you're like made it or you're definitely, you know, making something. But I think like there was a part of me that was like terrified of being a cliche or kind of selling out. I feel that so many of my tribe, it was about like doing things in a different way. And I think the expectancy as a woman that, you know, in a kind of this industry that was like it still is incredibly male dominated. But, you know, even more so then. And the kind of idea that you were going to get up on TV

or do something pregnant was like, you know, no, that's not going to happen. No one said no, but there was just an overall kind of filter blanket. So that was like, I didn't plan to get pregnant. It was my second child. But there was absolutely no way as things, and when things started to happen, that that was going to be in the way.

I'd rather not do it. Yeah. There's so much in the book that I want, there's so much. People, you just have to read it because it is a remarkable story. I'm so happy that you like it. How can we not? A, it's brilliantly written,

but also your story. And also, you know, your story is, I was there kind of following the journey and listening to the music. There's a story that you've got to tell very quickly about you going to a party. It's 1989, which is, you know, this is a seminal year in hip hop. So many big albums came out. You're in this room. I think you're in New York. And De La Soul introduced you to Q-Tip.

Yeah. And what did he say to you? Q-Tip, we what did he say to you? Q-Tip we were just having a dance it was a young MC party and I'd met the De La Soul boys I'd been listening so much also to their album of course that year their first album but we were on the dance floor all of us and I hadn't met Q-Tip before they introduced me to Q-Tip and we really instantly liked each other. And after a few tunes in, he was like, I'm making this record. I'd really love it if you came and sang on it. And that was the first Tribe Called Quest record. I didn't go and sing on that track when he called me to go in for the session. Because you were on tour with the Fine Young Cannibals.

I was about to go on tour with the Fine Young Cannibals. I was about to go on tour with the Fine Young Cannibals. Is that a regret? Yeah. It's one of my biggest regrets, you know. I also need to hear that record. I need to hear you and them together. I started the program talking about, you know, saying that we are going to talk about mothers and Moki, you know, your mum is.

I feel like when you get to the end of the book, you've honoured her and you pull no punches. You really do open your heart and you talk about so much in the book. But your mother passed away. She died in 2009 and you write about your uncontrollable grief. How did you find yourself again? Slowly. It took, you know, it took me quite a while. I think I was in such deep trauma, trying to first of all cope with it on my own, and I couldn't, so I had some treatment. And then, of course, primarily, I would say family and people that love me having my back and not going away,

even when I wasn't present. And, you know, I was barely able to be there and function. My husband had my back. You know, my kids had forgiveness and faith. And I did push, you know, I did push. And then music, you know, after a couple of years, you know, I was, I made a record Dan's voice kind of going, you know, this is how we continue. And knowing that they would be so sad if I, you know, stopped living. Yeah. Well, it's a beautiful memoir. Honestly, it means so much to hear that from you. Yes.

Do you feel ready for it to be out in the world? People are going to respond to it. Do you know what? I'm still coming to terms. It's filtering through slowly. Well, I absolutely loved it. I've even brought my copy in for you to sign. Thank you so much for coming in.

Thank you for having me. You're welcome back anytime. I'll be back anytime you want me. Wonderful. We'll put the kettle on as well. Naina Cherry, thank you. Naina's book, A Thousand Threads, is out now. I'm going to end with one of your messages. Helen says, your theme will be striking a chord with me today. My mum died over 25 years ago. I miss her every day. She did a lot of cross-stitch, and this past week I gave one of my closest friends a birthday gift, two framed pictures that my mum made. We both cried. It was a real tribute to her and a lovely remembrance of my mum.

Join us tomorrow for more Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Randy Feltface, a purple puppet from Australia, and I have managed to infiltrate BBC Radio 4 to bring you my very own four-part series about how to speed up climate change and end the planet as quickly as possible. Dear BBC, when oh when will you stop providing a platform to puppets? If you've never seen me before,

Google Satanic Spawn of Barney the Dinosaur and you'll get the trick right. The point is, the planet is getting hotter. We're on track for mass extinction and I want to see it happen. It's Randy Feltface's Destruction Manual. Available now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.