Woman's Hour - Imelda Staunton on depicting Queen Elizabeth II

Episode Date: December 13, 2023

How could people step in safely if they see a woman being harassed in public? Former police officer Graham Goulden and criminologist Molly Ackhurst tell Emma Barnett how bystanders can protect themselves while helping others.Imelda Staunton has played Queen Elizabeth II for the last two series of television drama The Crown. She joined us before she started the role, in 2021, to talk about how she was approaching the role, and why it was important to her. She joins Emma Barnett again now that it’s coming to an end – the final episodes of The Crown are released on Netflix this week.Should we celebrate quitting a job? We’ve got divorce parties - how about a quitting party? When award-winning sex educator and author, Hannah Witton decided to stop making her successful YouTube and podcast series, Doing It, her friends and colleagues threw her a surprise quitting ceremony. There was cake, and even a card saying Bye, Bye Don't Come Back. Hannah tells Emma whether this party helped, alongside career coach, and host of the Career Happiness podcast, Soma Ghosh, with her advice for anyone thinking of quitting.There has been a significant increase in the number of women being investigated by police after a suspected abortion, according to a senior consultant gynaecologist, with some women facing high-profile court cases, and other instances where children have been removed from the mother. Abortion is a criminal offence in England and Wales unless it meets strict criteria. Co-chairman of the British Society of Abortion Care Providers Dr Jonathan Lord, who has raised these concerns, joins Emma.Producer: Hannah Sander Presenter: Emma Barnett

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. One of our most celebrated actors, Imelda Staunton, is joining me today as the final episodes of The Crown are released. She's playing the late Queen Elizabeth II in those episodes in the Netflix drama. What a day to be talking to her as someone who adores working in the theatre, as also the first female and ethnic minority director of the National Theatre has been announced in Do Ruber Singham.

So I'll be asking her about that appointment. And also I hear her loathing of people eating snacks while they are in the theatre. Amen to that. Also on today's programme, one of my guests has quit her job and her friends threw her a quitting party. This follows on from resignation parties in China. What do you make of that? Quitting, something to celebrate or perhaps try and mark and reclaim. It can be incredibly upsetting at the same time as something to try and lean into. Can you relate to that? And we're also going to talk to a senior doctor with lots of experience in the field to try to understand why there has been this significant increase, you may have read about this,

in the number of women being investigated by police after suspected abortions. We'll be explaining that story and more. If you hear anything you want to get in touch about, 84844, that's the number you need to text me here or on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email me through the Women's Hour website. But first, we wanted to bring a story to your attention that you may have missed or perhaps you've seen

or maybe you couldn't bear to read. But there is an element of this that we wanted to discuss as well as bringing this to light and shining a light on it, it's been reported this week that a man who raped a woman as she slept on a London underground tube service has been jailed for nine years. Rian Johnson subjected a 20-year-old woman to a shocking ordeal on the Piccadilly line. A French tourist and his 11-year-old son were said to have witnessed the attack and reported it to the police. There was no CCTV on the train and it's understood that the woman was returning home from an evening out with friends. Those are some of the facts as we know them but

it is a truly shocking case and what are you meant to do if you see something like that or something again which could be some form of assault or something you know isn't right that's an extraordinarily difficult and awful case to have been a witness to but what are you meant to do what can you do if anything or perhaps you yourself have an experience of stepping in or speaking out or doing something do get in touch with me on those numbers I just listed. But here, with some expertise, Graham Goulden, a retired police officer who delivers what's called bystander training for different groups and has worked with British Transport Police on their Speak Up, Interrupt campaign, and Molly Ackhurst,

lecturer in criminology at the University of Greenwich. Welcome to you both. Graham, I'll come to you first. I mean, it's a truly shocking case. There has been this campaign, not just on London transport networks, across the country to try and change some of this behaviour. But this is, I presume, quite rare, this particular case. I would think so. You know, we do hear cases of sexual harassment, you know, comments, words being made that this extreme end of that continuum of harm is fortunately rare, but it's happened. And we need to understand in these cases, how can we help bystanders? How can we help these third parties who may be present in these situations to do something rather than doing nothing.

Because we all have that power to make a difference. And I think, you know, bystander inaction is not inevitable. Some people do step up, even when stakes are high. So for me, we need to empower people to intervene, give them the tools, the knowledge to notice and to act. What are you meant to do in the more extreme cases? Because it's very frightening for all involved. Yeah. For me, the best advice I give people is to be selfish in those first few seconds. Don't react. Because when you react to situations, you can find yourself getting hurt. Your brain is in that fight or flight sort of space. And the stress, the adrenaline, the cortisol is going to the brain.

And if we're not careful, that can lead to that reactive response. So when you're selfish, you can take a step back, take some deep breaths and start to think to yourself, who's around me? Because those deep breaths are really powerful. They start to get the brain engaged again. And you start to think to yourself, right, who's around me? Who's with me? Do I need to step in? Could I just shout something? Could I just stand up and make my presence known to the person could I ask the time of the person who's causing the harm or or the victim or just speak to a victim turn your back to the harm doer and just speak to the victim so when you when we equip people with these with these tools it's amazing people people will use these tools. Molly let me bring you in at this point. Molly, good morning.

Morning. Do you think there's a difference between how women and men react as bystanders and how do we navigate that? I mean, we all live in a gendered world and we all are socialised differently, right? So I think, you know, we're all going to respond in slightly different ways, regardless of who we are in the world and how we have been socialized to kind of interact with it I think something that Graham said that kind of landed in a different way for me I guess is that I would never encourage someone to be selfish I would encourage us to take a survivor-centered approach what is that person experiencing in that moment and what do they need from me in that moment and sometimes that direct response which you know is I think Graham just mentioned isn't what they need in fact often it's not what

they need it will make them feel less safe less secure it may make them feel more at risk of harm and it's why many feminist campaign groups often speak of the 40s so there's that direct action approach then there's also distract which is I could go up to someone I could be like oh excuse me what's the time can you show me the the way to the station and get them out of that incident and out of that moment maybe I don't feel able to as as a woman in that space to kind of do that that distract approach do that direct approach so maybe I call on others around me to mobilize them to intervene. Or just as an important response is a delayed response, which is going up to the person who has experienced some

form of sexual violence, some form of sexual harassment or public intrusion of their personal space and asking them, are you OK? I saw what happened to you and I believe that what happened to you was wrong and I just wanted to make sure that you're okay and I think something that we you know that I've heard throughout my years as a frontline sexual violence support worker is one of the worst things was that nobody said anything that nobody intervened. What would you say to those who are listening and I'll come back to Graham in just a moment but those who who have been with children in a scenario like this have you got different advice? I think that's the beauty of the 4Ds that feminist groups have been practising

and modelling and teaching. And I've delivered bystander intervention work with feminist groups for a really long time as well. And, you know, there's no prescriptive approach. If I'm with a child, you know, this man that witnessed this horrific incident was with an 11-year-old, you know, their delayed response is so powerful.

And it's because, you know, what survivors tell us that they want after experiencing an incident of sexual violence largely isn't punishment and punitivity or the criminal justice system. What they want is belief, validity, accountability, and a delayed response, checking in with someone, what can I get you, I saw what happened. What if your instinct is to move yourself because you're with a child and your child away and you do nothing? Then I think it's about practicing our muscle memory.

What else can I do in that moment? Maybe I'm not safe to intervene. Maybe I can call on other people. Maybe I can get off at the next station and raise alarm to a guard or something. There's always things that we can do. And I think so often, Graham mentioned fight and flight, and actually freeze is a really common response when we see something horrific and scary.

And I echo what Graham said, it's about practicing. We speak in the groups that I've worked with about a muscle memory and making sure that every time that we see someone being made to feel uncomfortable, and as human beings in the world, we do know what someone looking uncomfortable is. It's about us kind of finding ways constantly to interrupt those spaces,

kind of being in a space and looking around and saying, okay, is anyone uncomfortable in these spaces? And it's about us as members of a community, the London community, trying to keep ourselves safe, because ultimately we're the people that are able to keep us safe in those moments. You know, we are in those spaces together. Graham, have you worked with people who would move away

or have found themselves doing nothing? Yeah, you know, in all my work, I meet people who regret not doing more. And it's a common thing for human beings when they don't intervene, when they don't do what they think they should be doing. They internalize that, that moral trauma, that moral injury, wishing they had done something. And it's a powerful motivator for what we introduce to them in their training to think about, OK, how can we overcome that? How can we help you not have that guilt that could last a lifetime? And it is through the provision of good training, good quality training, provision of tools and discussion, discussion with your peers and peer groups, workplaces, wherever. That's the case.

And, you know, Molly makes some really valid points about, you know, giving people tools and practicing these tools. Active bystandership can become a muscle memory. The more we do it, the more we practice it, it just becomes natural. I've been doing this work for 15 years and I find myself just seeing things and just instinctively knowing what questions to ask. And that's what we wanted to do with the Speak Up, Interrupt campaign was to give members of the public some basic tools because positive evolution, positive change happens with small actions. We're not asking people big things. You were also targeting men, weren't you,

with that campaign in the first instance? There was a message for men about what men can do. The vast majority of these incidents involve men as perpetrators, as harm doers and women as victims. And we need to get men on the page. Men want to help. And that difference between men and women intervening, you know know i think there's this inbuilt fear that if i intervene on a train i'm going fighting and that and that and that and that physical fear is a big destructive influence on us so again it's about giving men the tools do i have to step into the situation you know just standing up as i said before your power you know your great superpowers your presence put that put that into practice. And also,

Molly talked about speaking to victims, you know, telling a victim that they're not to blame. It's such a simple thing to do, but such a powerful thing to say to any victim. Molly, to come back to you, there's another thing we've talked about on this programme before, and it's continued sadly as a trend is individuals watching porn on public transport. And while that's not an assault on an individual, it's an assault of sorts on everyone in that carriage, because it's not what's meant to be happening. Would you do something proactive in that scenario? Would you advise that? I think the four Ds apply. Is it safe for me to directly intervene? Is there a way for me to delegate if I don't feel safe to intervene? Can I have a delayed response if there are people around me that are

clearly upset and bothered by seeing someone watching pornography in a public space? Can I check in with them after? I mean, like, I saw that. I just wanted to let you know that I know that that must have been really distressing, and I saw it too. I think, you know, all we can do is create communities where we are responsive and active and striving to create spaces that are safer, where we are keeping ourselves safe. And like Graham has echoed from me earlier, like constantly practising that muscle memory where we are intervening, where we see things happening. because ultimately when we intervene when if someone is watching pornography in a public space interrupting that moment and just kind of checking in just to let you know I don't I can see that you're watching pornography and that that's that's bothering me you know there

are there are so many ways that we can intervene and I think they're all valid and they're all important. Elaine's message to say I witnessed a physical assault on a woman and I stepped in asking the guy, could I help at all? With that, the guy went off cursing, but the assault stopped. I was lucky. Goodness knows what happened to the woman after. And we'll have more examples of that. We probably won't get the examples of people writing in saying they didn't intervene because, as you talked there, Graham, about a moral trauma. People perhaps don't want to remember those moments, or they then think about them for quite a long time and feel pretty bad about it.

Molly, have you intervened? Yeah, I mean, I intervene whenever I see something happening in a public space. Yeah, because I think it's the right thing for us to be doing as members of kind of a community. Like the direct response is not one that I've used very often, but I always do a delayed response. I always check in. I've actually never really used a delegate response, but I do the distract response all the time. A friend of mine also will regularly go up to people and be like, hi, I see something happening and just wanted to check in or say something like randomly going up to a person that she sees being kind of made to feel uncomfortable and being like can you just

show me some directions to this place and I think Graham touched upon something around kind of and you you asked that question around the gender response something that we do when I've delivered these kind of workshops is we trial them out and we're constantly practicing them because different things will feel right for different people as as a cis woman I'm much more able to go up to another woman in a public space and ask if she's okay and use a direct distract response because she may not feel like I'm a threat whereas a six foot five man going up to her and asking her to take her to another place through a distract response might feel quite scary as well. So it's just about trialing what feels best. Let me just read. These are really striking messages we're getting in here. And there's

one that I found that has sort of come in at the same time, which is almost perfect when this happens in some ways. But terrible message first to start with. It's an anonymous message, which you can always do, by the way, to those getting in touch. Thank you. I was sexually assaulted on a tube train by a group of young men in 1990 and I'm horrified it's still going on. The man opposite put his head down and didn't help. It was broad daylight and I was going to a job interview. First of all, I'm incredibly sorry that happened to you,

but thank you for sharing. But at the same time, a message has come from Max, who's a 50-year-old police officer who says, I'm going on a trip with my wife to London in January. I've been watching programmes on crime and policing in the capital recently. My view on stepping into a situation is changing. Years ago, I would have stepped in very quickly, used rational and taught skills to help out. Now, though, unfortunately, I definitely think twice. I'm upset and slightly ashamed to say I may now walk away and get myself and my loved ones out of harm's way. You're a

retired police officer, Graham Goulden. What do you say to that? Because they're very striking messages to get together. They're very powerful messages. And that last message there is actually part of the issue we see in society just now, where we live in high crime areas, where violence is an everyday occurrence, knives are on the streets. That is having an impact. Hence why we need to widen the toolkit for our bystanders. If people think the only way to intervene is to step in, then what that person is saying is so true.

That first message, you know, when we don't help a victim, we render that person invisible. My daughter was on a train last year, phoned me up, really upset. She said, Dad, there's a man on the train who keeps staring at me. And I said, OK, let's just, you know, you're fine.

Who's with you? Nobody. They've all moved seats. And in that instant, my daughter had been rendered invisible. And within minutes, she was minimising the event. She was minimising what was happening to her.

And we managed to get in touch with the British Transport Police, use the Railway Guardian app, the 61016, because that's another way that we can deal with things. And within an hour, the police were in touch with my daughter, validating her experience, taking information from her to try and deal with that.

So I think when we don't help a victim, we send positive messages to the harm-doer, and we tell victims we don't care. Graham Goulden, retired police officer who does deliver bystander training. Molly Atkiss, lecturer in criminology at the University of Greenwich. Thank you very much to both of you.

Some practical insights there we hope you can use. It's always good if we can give you that, albeit in very difficult circumstances. And there's one here from Elaine who says, I witnessed a physical assault on a woman and asking the guy if I could help at all.

And, you know, just hearing that again, she said, you know, I was lucky, I don't know what happened to the woman. I think asking if you can help, distraction, these questions, different things coming in. I just wanted to read that again because I think if you're thinking, what can I do, that's something to leave you with. But those four Ds, you can look them up. Hopefully, maybe we could share them actually on the Woman's Hour website.

But keep your messages coming in. A few also coming in to do with quitting and quitting jobs and quitting parties. That will be coming up shortly in the programme. But let me tell you, my next guest, Imelda Staunton, is on the line. She's one of our most celebrated actors. She's played many roles on her first love, The Stage, and on screen. Think Vera Drake, Dolores Umbridge and Harry Potter, to name but two. And she's on our TV screens at the moment as Queen Elizabeth II in the last series of the Netflix drama epic, The Crown. Imelda actually

joined me before she started the role, back on my very first day in this job in January 2021. We talked about how she was approaching the part. I remember she couldn't say that much, but she did say some and why it was important to her. So I am delighted to say Imelda Staunton joins me again as the final episodes of series six of The Crown are released on Netflix tomorrow. Imelda, good morning. Good morning. I remember that so well, your first day. So do I. And my first day hadn't really started, but it was your first day. So that was, I felt very privileged. Well, it was a real privilege to have you on and it's lovely to have you back. And actually we had a message from the late Queen that day

marking the 75th anniversary of this programme. And it did give you a chance to reflect a bit on her as a role and role model to women. And of course, you know, what wasn't foreseen and you've had to be a part of really was, of course, her death and you being in this role. And I just wanted to start there, if I can, because it must have been quite something

to find yourself doing this at that time. Yes, well, it was, absolutely. We were filming this final series on the day and we were filming in the afternoon and we sort of were told that, you know, people were travelling up to Balmoral. Anyway, we kept going, we kept filming that day. And then, of course, she died that evening.

And I was, you know, I was inconsolable, really. And I think it was obviously to do with being sort of inside her, if you like, in my small way. And I was very grateful because in the schedule I had 10 days off, which was, of course, that was the 10 days of mourning that we were all in. And I didn't want to watch a lot of things to do with her, but I did watch the funeral.

And then I filmed the next day after her funeral. I think it was very strange for the other people looking at me, seeing that figure, that shape. So it was a sad time for everyone. But I think particularly for all the people, the creatives, whether it's Peter Morgan and all our producers who've worked on it for so long. It was a very sad time. And yet, you know, we had to carry on and we did.

So it altered, you know, we were thrown off our axis. There's no doubt about it. But then, you know, we were doing something that was really in history. Yeah. Because the series finishes in about 2005. So we were not up to present day. So we were still telling, you know, Peter Morgan's story. Exactly. And, you know, you are the third to play the queen in this series, Claire Foy,

Olivia Colman before you. And you are playing her at her lowest point, the Anna Cereblis and the children's divorces and Princess Diana's death, and then the royal family's repositioning in the wake of that. It is a fictionalised series based on some of those facts. But I suppose in the context that you've just talked about, but also the time that you are depicting her, have you learned anything new? Have you got a different viewpoint on that time? Because it's history, but it's close history. Yeah, sure.

And I think that's really difficult, isn't it? Because no one has a problem with films about Elizabeth I, you know, and it's because we think we know it that we have, we sort of have, surely have a say or control over it. Well, we don't because all our stories are told by dramatists, unless you're reading a history book. But I think, you know, I mean, my part of the story, as you said, are the difficult years. Dramatically, of course, that is quite interesting to do.

And yet, of course, when you're playing any real person, you are aware of their family members, whether they're watching it or not. But, you know, you don't want to cause undue distress, as we say. But I think there was plenty going on in that family that was doing that for itself. And I think there were very difficult years for all of them. But I mean, I think what my biggest sort of feeling about the Queen is that her faith was hugely important to her. And I think it gave her enormous inner strength. And it seems to me that that got her through practically everything, that and her sense of duty. And I think that's why thousands, if not millions,

of people queued up to see the coffin. Whether you're a monarchist or not, I think they were saying thank you to a person who did their job seemingly 24-7, decade after decade. I was going to say, did you think of queuing up? I didn't. I couldn't. I was filming, you know, I couldn't. I didn't want to be seen there.

I didn't want to, you know. It's quite an awkward situation in some ways through no creation of your own, but I imagine. But you say at the same time on a personal level you were inconsolable. Do you feel that's because you've learnt so much about her or do you feel you already had that bond? No, I think it was certainly because of doing this show, definitely. It's heightened everything to do with what I might

or might not have thought about her. And therefore, you know, I think I would have been sad like the rest of the world. But it was so much more acute because of what, you know, what I was doing. You do look at in some of your episodes, just looking across them, but you look at the relationship between the Queen and Tony Blair at a time when he was rating in a more popular way than her with the public. But there was an audience that was always on her side a lot more which was the women's institute uh i think that's safe to say uh his speech didn't go down so well but hers always did and then i was looking back through actually what she said at the centenary of the women's institute she was a member and she said she had been i think a member

of the women's institute longer than she'd been queen um yes at this one of the speeches that you were giving but But in 2015, when the Women's Institute turned 100, she gave what people described as a feminist speech. You know, she talked about the changes in women's lives and being granted the vote since 1915, climbing Everest. And she praised the Women's Institute for gathering women together. But there was this particular line where she says, in the modern world, or she said, the opportunities for women to give something of value to society are greater than ever because through their own efforts, they now play a much greater part in all areas of public life. Do you

end up viewing her in that feminist way from your work? I absolutely do. And she was a woman in very much a man's world in that society. And I think she trod her own path as much as she could with the constraints of the royal household. And someone who I think couldn't make waves, but had to be constant, had to be serious, had to cover so many bases. But then I would imagine in quite a frustrating way, because you think, I really want to say this about this issue, and I can't. I think that must have been tough for her. But I think she's just such an example of someone who can, I think she adapted quite well. I mean, you know, she was there for decades, so she had to change with the decades.

And I think she recognised that the family was changing. She recognised the effect that Diana had on the family. And also what William, you know, she recognised that change has to happen and you've got to go with it. But at the same time, it's sort of like a magician, but remaining exactly the same. Well, except maybe when you're doing things where people have pulled them out as big feminist moments, their version of it. But, you know, when you're driving around the then Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia in 2003, as she did when he visited her in Balmoral, she hopped behind the wheel and drove him in the Land Rover.

That was a time when women weren't allowed to drive there. So there are these statements, perhaps not Margaret, played when you're playing this by Lesley Manville. We're just going to hear a clip of you as the Queen paying tribute to Margaret at the Ritz on her 70th birthday. It's not always easy growing up in a family where one person has to wear the crown, being the number two. But Margaret has been my ally, day in, day out. And that's the person I wanted to tell you about tonight. Not the dazzling, you all know that already, but the dutiful.

Never wavering. My lifelong companion and support without whom well it would be unimaginable dearest Margaret many happy returns would be unimaginable. Dearest Margaret,

many happy returns. You certainly got the voice. I remember you talking to me about that. It's even more stark when you hear it on the radio, I have to say, without the visuals. So well done on that. I'm sure you were probably practising for some time, but there's something very,

there's so much love there, isn't there? And she was a lifelong companion to her. And it's a long time to live without your sister because she died 20 years before the Queen. Yeah, yeah. And also, I suppose, for the Queen, who had to do, I think, probably one of the toughest things that she ever did was to refuse Margaret

the permission to marry Peter Townsend because being the head of the Church of England, being queen, she just could not allow it. And I think that stayed with her. Of course it did, her whole life. And Margaret, I'm sure many times resented that greatly. But they were sisters before they were queen and princess. And I think that sort of runs through the relationship.

How's your meetings with the royal family going? You've met them before, haven't you? Which ones? Have they talked to you since the crown? No one's phoned. No, I don't imagine they i don't know if they watch it or not um but um uh no i i sang for the queen's 90th birthday yes this is this is this is the material go on okay and um uh and it uh it was at windsor great Park and she had a wonderful evening event. And there were lots of singers, lots of singers.

When I say lots of singers, I mean Kylie and Shirley Bassey. Then you put me into the mix. I don't know quite exactly why I was there. But when everyone was singing, there was a wonderful horse show going on. There were stallions. Kylie was singing. There were white stallions and Shirley Bassey, black stallions. And then I sang my song, which was a song from the 40s called Sing Sing.

And when I was singing, there was a Shetland Pony Grand National. So I thank you. That was my, I thought, no, I'll have glory. No, Shetland Ponies for me. But it was good fun. Well, just talking, I've got to ask you today a couple of things more, if I may, certainly about theatre, because you were asked, because you are a brilliant singer and performer on the stage. That's where you honed your craft. And today it's been announced the National Theatre has named

its first female and ethnic minority director. Indu. Indu Rubasingam, the first. She's the seventh director of the National since it was founded, but the first woman. What do you make of that? Well, I can get very personal about this because she's a friend and we've done a lot to support the Kiln Theatre that she has run for nearly 12 years. And she, I have to say, and I'm dropping in, she called us last night to tell us.

So we were, well, I'm over the moon, absolutely over the moon. And she is the right person for the job. Not that she's the woman or a woman of curler. She is the right person for this job. She has turned the Kild Theatre around. She will do such great things at the National Theatre. It is daunting and so exciting in equal measure. Could not be, this couldn't happen to a better candidate. I like that the Royals haven't happen to a better candidate. I like that. The royals haven't called, but she has.

So it's good to get an idea of who's calling you at the moment. And that's pretty well timed. Are you going to ask, I know you're returning to the theatre, to Treading the Boards next summer, Hello Dolly in the West End. Are you going to ask Indu though over at the National to ban food in the theatre? I know you, like I, have this absolute frustration with people with their sweet packets and their crisp packets. Maybe you could ask her. You've got friends in high places. Well, I don't think that happens that much at the National. But the thing is, you know, if it's on sale in the foyer, they're going to buy it, stop selling it.

Right. Is that your first bit of advice to her, perhaps? I've got no advice she needs no advice from me um uh and uh so i did say you know we're going to take you for dinner i'm not trying to sort of butter her up what what what can i do no uh she's uh fairly fairly completely capable of doing this herself but i i just i just had to bring that up because it's something i've i fully agree oh no i'm happy to bring that up because it's something I fully agree with. Oh, no, I'm happy to bring it up because, I mean, have your dinner before you come to the theatre. Good message.

And then have your dinner and just watch something for an hour or so and not be distracted by other stuff. It's interesting, we can't be sort of two steps away for a coffee or a drink, can we? No. And you managed to stay very focused. Just a final thought, Imelda, if I can. When you were starring in Gypsy, is it right,

during its transfer to the West End, a mouse snuck into your costume? Well, you've told the end line now, haven't you? Well, is that true? Is that the case? One always has to... Completely true. Right, yeah. And you just had to...

Yeah. Well, how did you deal with it? Well, I didn't realise it was there until I started speaking because I'd put my coat on to start the show and started the show, was coming down the auditorium, shouting out, sing out Louise, and coming out. I thought, hang on a minute, hang on a minute, there's something crawling up my arm.

And it crawled, it was a poor little mouse had obviously been sitting there quite happily, crawled up and it was sitting on my shoulder inside my coat and then I could feel it really clinging on and I did the whole first scene, then I had a big song and I thought the mouse is still there wandering around my shoulder and then I kept doing a lot of gestures with my left arm where the mouse was thinking, the mouse might just run down my arm,

fly out the end of my, No, it didn't happen. Didn't happen. Singing the big song, thinking I've got a mouse. If anyone knew. So I did about the first 20 minutes with the mouse inside my coat. Yeah. And we've been friends ever since. That mouse always phones me.

If that isn't focus, and if you can't sacrifice eating some crisps or Maltesers or whatever in the auditorium to watch performances like that, come on, you've got to pay your dues to that. Imelda Staunton, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. The Crown's final six episodes are released on Netflix tomorrow. So there you go. You heard a little bit behind the scenes and also what happens if the costumes that maybe haven't been checked, you know, mice. Let's talk about not just getting jobs here and what jobs we're doing, but quitting jobs. A few of you have been in touch about the idea of quitting parties. We've had divorce parties, now quitting parties. And when

the popular online sex educator and my next guest and the author Hannah Witton decided to stop making her YouTube and podcast series doing it, her friends and colleagues threw her a surprise quitting ceremony and there was cake, even a card saying, bye-bye, don't come back. This follows a trend in China of people throwing something called resignation parties, which I think speak for themselves. We're also going to be hearing from a career coach

and host of the Career Happiness podcast, Soma Ghosh, with some advice for anyone of you listening who are thinking of quitting. But Hannah, first, let me come to you. Good morning. I suppose congratulations on quitting. Do we say that? Yeah.

Thank you. Tell me about this party or this gathering. It was a surprise. I was with two of my friends and kind of colleagues, if you can have colleagues in the freelancer world. And they were very much there for me throughout all of the processing and decision making of ending my sex and relationships, YouTube channel and podcast. And yeah, they were kind of like, in the thick of it with me when I was in crisis mode, but also really helped me process through what it is that I wanted to do. And so then when we had one of our regular work sessions together, they surprised me with a cake and a song and a card. It was lovely.

Did it make you feel better about it? Because it's a hard thing to decide to do, quitting sometimes. For others, it's the best thing they've done it's really straightforward for others it's it's toxic and sad I mean there's a there's a range of reactions but it sounds like for you because this is something you'd built up for a long time yeah yeah um they were the ones that actually very much um helped me realize that it was something that I should celebrate um rather than just kind of being like okay bye and then and then leaving actually it being this cause for a celebration of this like end of an era like looking back on this huge body of work that I've created over the last 12 years um and just being really proud of that and it not being a case of like running away from it,

but actually just like that project feels completed, that feels done, I'm ready to move on to something else now. And that's a really positive thing and deserves to be celebrated in itself. But then also I think that the courage to like make a huge decision like that, for me, I know the process of making that decision was so hard that actually like somebody congratulating me on simply the ability to make the decision and

follow through with it. It like feels really good when somebody validates that for me, like, oh, well done. That must have been really hard. I'm like, it was. You know, experts on decision making as a process say that there are no such things as the wrong decisions. You've just got to once you've made the decision, make it the right decision. So that's something to live by in case it helps as well. But I imagine a party like that brings that feeling to the fore. And Soma, let me bring you in at this point. I mentioned this trend in China of people throwing resignation parties. It's a real move away from perhaps what had been, which was the idea of get a job in these sorts of companies that you should celebrate and

career should all be about the hustle. There's a bit of a change and a trend for certain people now, isn't there? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And I honestly think that a lot of this kind of phenomenon is around the great resignation and quiet quitting as well. And quiet quitting is basically when you're kind of doing the bare minimum in your job, but you're probably behind the scenes job hunting. And I think often what happens with that as well is that people don't realise that there are probably a lot of people who are quiet quitting. I know previously I've done this in previous jobs and a lot of people are doing it more and more now. And that's because of different obligations, it could be financial, it could be, you know, because they feel like they're expected to stay

in that job. And echoing what Hannah said there as well, it's, it takes time to come to that decision. It really, really does. And I think there can be extra pressure from family and friends to go the opposite way and not quit. Well, there's also what are you going to do next? And there's the practical side of this, which I know you're keen to talk about. Have you got any advice for someone who really can't decide whether to do this or not and is concerned? Yeah, I mean, I think some of the tips that I would really, really say, firstly, you know, understand why you are quitting. Because I think often the reason why we don't quit is because of that pressure that I've already spoken about. But in terms of the steps, I would kind of think about, you know, what are you going to do next? Are you going to apply for a job and have another job? Because what can happen then is that people get into the situation where they're job hopping because they end up in another situation where they're unhappy at work. On top of that, what can also happen is that they don't actually understand what it is they want.

So it could be that they want to change their career. It could be that, you know, even taking a sabbatical could be the answer because I myself was in a situation many years ago where I was unhappy at work and I was in a toxic work environment. I was bullied and I didn't want to celebrate mainly because my mental health was being affected. And there will be some people listening today who will be in that state of mind and maybe taking that break will be good. But also it's that financial pressure that so many people are feeling now where when I'm working with my clients, they feel this pressure oh what is everyone going to say and you know how am I going to get out of that so I think in terms of the tips it really really starts with you having some kind of plan or strategy but it can take time it can take time to get there. Hannah I also know to come back to you that you

know having built up that body of work there's while this is you know being celebrated and you're owning it there is there is some sadness that some of you know being celebrated and you're owning it there is there is some sadness that some of the realities as to why you're quitting it um go right back to your change in your life as becoming a parent yeah I think that was definitely I mean it's a huge change regardless um but for me in terms of the way that I wanted to continue working after having a baby it's there isn't really like this blueprint for freelancers or small business owners or um like online content creators in terms of how do you navigate maternity leave and like taking a break from um like the endless pressure to constantly be creating content and like running a small

business essentially and so it was it was really difficult to like first off make the decision of like okay i'm gonna take three months off which in you know by some standards isn't a huge amount of time to take for parental leave um but in in the way that I was thinking of it it was still a huge risk to my career I was like I have to be happy with the fact that I might come back from this and the audience might not be there the work the money might not be there and then it was like a year and a half of working part-time trying to do as much as possible um being very sleep deprived still very sleep deprived and yeah it was a case of just like giving it my all um and knowing when to step away knowing when to not like continue to torture myself yeah and and sometimes

you come back to things and they're not how you felt before you know you know that sort of experience or other big life-changing experiences you change your appetite changes and and what you value also changes have you got a plan is this a quitting party with a celebration as to what's next yeah there's there's a small plan um which is kind of made up of a few different things so um um I'm continuing making uh online content on a different YouTube channel that I have because that doesn't that never like felt to me the same kind of like stress and anxiety and pressure that the other one did um and kind of what Soma was saying about figuring out why it is you're quitting and then you could find yourself like doing the same job just elsewhere. I did so much reflecting and like exercises to try and figure out specifically what was

causing me pain and what were the things that I found really exciting so that in this quit, I could kind of tailor what am I letting go of? What am I keeping? And what do I want to do next with that clarity in mind? But the thing that I'm really excited about exploring next year is actually working more behind the scenes with content creators, in terms of the kind of stuff that I really love, which is like the producing and the project management and yeah, organizing all of the behind the scenes of people's like the producing and the project management and yeah,

organising all of the behind the scenes of people's like content production. So hopefully you'll be able to make good on that card saying bye bye, don't come back. And which is which is good. I like that, that your friend or your colleague has sort of put that in place for you. So just a final thought from you, Hannah Whitten, thank you so much. It's great to have you on the programme. We wish you the best of luck with it. And it's great to have prompted this discussion. But final thought from you, Hannah Witton, thank you so much. It's great to have you on the programme. We wish you the best of luck with it. And it's great to have prompted this discussion. But final thought from you, Soma, are you seeing with those that you're working with as a career coach that there is, I mean, maybe it's inherent by those who might hire a career coach,

but are you seeing this move away from valuing yourself through, you know, promotion after promotion? It's sort of what we're seeing in China is quite a stark contrast because people are not finding that the same jobs pay and certainly what you're paid doesn't then get you what you were promised or could get in the past. Yeah, I'm definitely seeing this. I'm also seeing that a lot of people are actually in jobs where they're not only dissatisfied, they start to like stain jobs for a short while with the quiet quitting approach. And what happens is, is they're bored of that job, they're doing that job. But the other thing that I'm seeing as well is not just them putting themselves first, I think everybody's just

started prioritising, like what how they want to work. So whether that's a portfolio career, whether they want to have more flexible working, I think in terms of going forward with this, people have quit before. This is not a new phenomenon. I just think the pandemic exacerbated the importance of certain things like flexible working, for example, you know, if you have a chronic illness, a lot of my clients who have illnesses have been coming to me and saying that, you know, I didn't know about reasonable adjustments. I didn't know about this. You know, I'm going to actually speak up at work more. And I think the overall arching theme of this is about quitting because, you know, you want to go on to the next steps and doing it for the right reasons. But overall, I honestly

think that it's also about people wanting to have more overall happiness and flexibility in their work. Well your podcast is about career happiness there you go so much thank you very much. There's a message from Diane who says I quit my long-standing job with Royal Mail as a post person back in August after 36 years it's completely life-changing and definitely one of my better decisions in life. No word there on whether you had a quitting party maybe you can do that latterly and now you've just heard about it perhaps for the first time. And a message here from Katrina. No eating in the BFI, in the British Film Institute too, please. Just following on from what we were talking about with Imelda Staunton, who can't bear people eating during

the theatre. Proper cinema, proper cinema lovers. It's only 90 minutes or 120 minutes. They ask us to switch off phones, but do not desist from eating before a film. It's about making the money in the foyer. We need to ask someone, don't we? And more messages also coming in about what you do if you see something happening, the idea of being a bystander versus being active. This is after a shocking story we talked about

at the start of the programme. I just wanted to read this from Lucy who says, I worked as a nightclub door supervisor, a bouncer, she says in brackets, for many years. As a female, I found the job easier to do than my male colleagues. Women are seen as less threatening when stepping into a situation than men.

We should use that to our advantage in all walks of life. It's far easier to talk someone down as a woman because men are automatically seen as wanting to act in a physical way, even if that isn't their intention. Lucy, thank you for that message. Now, I did mention we would try to get to the bottom of what's been reported as a significant increase in the number of women being investigated by police after a suspected abortion. This is according to a senior consultant gynaecologist, with some women

facing high profile court cases and other instances where children have been removed from their mother. Abortion is a criminal offence in England and Wales unless it meets strict criteria. The procedure can take place in the first 24 weeks of pregnancy and any woman who does undergo an abortion without the permission of two doctors can be prosecuted. There are those who feel the law is just and abortion should remain illegal. And then there are those who feel this is archaic and needs changing fast. And it remains an emotive subject with strong feelings on all sides. But I can speak now to Dr. Jonathan Lord, co-chairman of the British Society of Abortion Care Providers and medical director at the charity MSI Reproductive

Choices, which provides abortions and a consultant gynaecologist who first raised these concerns in the Times newspaper. Good morning. Good morning. What are you seeing? So the first thing, it's important to get the numbers in perspective because we know that abortion is a very common healthcare need. About one in three women will need it. And we think probably in 2023, about a quarter of a million women will have needed to access abortion care.

So we're not talking about huge numbers in terms of prosecutions. It's the trend that's really concerning. And that is escalating very fast. And you can see that in a sort of most extreme way for the tip of the iceberg, which is those that actually end up in court charged. And in the past year, we know that six women have appeared in court, whereas in the entire history of the law from 1861,

previously there had only ever been three convictions. So something seems to have changed. Do you have any view on what that is? It's hard to say and unfortunately the data and the figures are sort of fairly flaky as it depends on who's reporting it but sort of teasing out what we can it seems to have pivoted in about 2018. Before that, there was only around one person a year charged. And most of those, many people would feel were appropriates. They were often abusers who had coerced someone into an abortion or something like that. So completely what you would want the law to stop. But after certainly 2020, and bear in mind,

it normally takes two or three years to bring people to charge. There's been, well, there were four charged in 2020 and six women have appeared in court, as I said, in the past year. And are we, sorry, go on, carry on. Sorry, I was going to say, if you sort of dig deeper into the figures, before 2018, about 20% of all the investigations were dropped as not being in the public interest. But since then, that figure has dropped to being minimal, just about 3%. And although it's a very few cases, it just seems to be a change in attitude in prosecutors and the police. A change in attitude there. But of course course these cases have to come to their attention.

And are we talking, just to be clear here, are we talking about women where they have tried to do this procedure themselves after the window that you are allowed to in this country? Is that broadly the circumstance we're talking about? Those cases have happened. And of course, a woman was sent to jail earlier this year in exactly that circumstance. They are extraordinarily rare. And almost always that category are people who are in absolutely desperate situations where they can't see any other solution but to breaking the law. And, you know, our view is that those people should be treated with compassion and as

victims. They're not criminals. They're just in appalling situations. What the concern is that this is now spilling over to being wider than that. This is anybody with some sort of unexplained or unusual pregnancy loss, maybe an unattended birth at home, which is quite common at these sort of very early stages. And with miscarriages, they can literally happen out of the blue in the toilet and so on. Those are now becoming under suspicion. And that is a real concern, because after going through the incredible trauma of a pregnancy loss, sort of humans are just hardwired to feel guilty when that happens. And to have that sort of guilt reinforced by NHS staff, the police accusing you of doing something wrong

and investigating you is incredibly damaging. In fact, it is life-changing for these women. So they're being accused of abortion, but you're saying it isn't. I know we can't talk about individual cases, and some cases are live legally, but what you're saying isn't what we think of as abortion when you describe it like that. No, not all of them. They are being investigated because, you know, prosecutors feel it could be.

But prosecutors must be getting this information from somewhere. And is it coming from doctors? It's just trying to understand how have they found out about this woman in her home, for instance. Yes, it's a variety of ways. So most people in a crisis will phone 999 and of course 999 calls go through to the police. They'll pick it up from that. Quite commonly, the paramedics who attend will call the police. And yes, midwives, nurses and doctors have called police. And that is a big concern because it does mean they are breaking the confidentiality that you would expect when you access health care.

So why do you think that's happening? It may have changed in some way. I recognise, again, you know, you can't generalise, but have you got a view on that? Yes, I think I don't think it's down to staff being anti-abortion particularly. And there may have been the odd case of that but by and large I think it's just a lack of awareness and training so you know most people feel that it's their duty as a good upright citizen if they think there's been a crime that they report it and so when someone comes into hospital and they think well I can't explain this it's not my role to consider whether this was an abortion or not. That's the role of the

police. Therefore, I'll call the police. And I think that's their sort of way of thinking. And what they don't do, unfortunately, is to take that next step, which is to say, actually, I'm a healthcare professional, I got a duty of confidentiality. If I break that confidentiality, then I'll destroy trust in the health service and also have a major impact on this patient in front of me. And it's that sort of next step that we need health care staff to take. Because you could argue from listening to what you've just said, police are bound to uphold the law. They're bound to investigate these things. In the process that you're talking about, because I know you support a change to the law, which I'll come to if I can, are you saying that it's medical professionals that need to stop speaking to the police about this? Or are you saying when the police hear

about these potential cases, that there isn't a requirement for them to investigate? I would say both of those. And the third factor is the public interest. What is the public interest in pursuing these women who have gone through probably the most traumatic event of their life? There clearly isn't one. And certainly all the medical authorities feel very strongly that they should not be pursued and prosecuted. How would you like the law changed? So abortion is healthcare, so it should just be regulated like all other healthcare. So we don't need a law to protect people against having an illegal appendectomy or whatever. And there is a doctor in jail at the moment for having done unnecessary surgery. So the regulations do work to protect patients.

You don't need something special for women considering an abortion. And the priority at the moment is simply to take the women out of the criminal code so that they don't face the real trauma. And there have been some horrific cases of, you know, brutal arrests of women being incarcerated for days, of having their children removed from them, of being barred access to their whole family, their children, their husband and so on, and not being allowed home because the home is a crime scene. So just imagine, and this has happened, someone being discharged from hospital,

having had a pregnancy loss. Nowadays, that might be at sort of 11, 12 at night. You pitch up home and your home is surrounded by forensic vans and a crime scene tape and you're not allowed in. You're not allowed to see your family. It is just a dreadfully traumatic experience. But I suppose from what you're saying is, you know, there will be those who do not, as I mentioned, see this as something that needs to change. They have very strong views

on this. They definitely don't see abortion as healthcare in the way that you've described. But from what you said today, which I know you don't want to alarm, but it does sound like you could be reported by medical staff if you were having a regular bodily process, however traumatic that is. You weren't trying to play a hand in this. And that seems to be, from your perspective, something that's changed. Yes, I think it has changed. As I've said, there seemed to have been something about 2018 and onwards that altered and i think what it probably was is that was when there was a big campaign and i know um your program helped out with this to enable women to take the second dose of a medical abortion we don't we don't help out with campaign i believe we covered it but but this is the yes so there was a campaign to do that so you think that perhaps really raised awareness amongst people.

And I think before that, a lot of people would simply not even know it was possible to take a tablet and procure an abortion at home or anywhere else. Whereas as a result of that, that awareness had come. I'm sorry to cut across to you, but we're nearly out of time. So I just have to say thank you, Dr Jonathan Lord. There are, of course, amendments on this attempted to go through Parliament as well at the moment. We'll continue to cover this story from all sides. Thank you for

your company today. Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. If anyone is an artist in their soul, it's Joni Mitchell. There are some artists that change music forever. The mastery of the guitar, the mastery of voice, the mastery of language. That shape the musical landscape for everyone who comes after. When the dust settles, Joni Mitchell may stand as the

most important and influential female recording artist of the late 20th century. Legend is a music biography podcast from BBC Radio 4 that explores the extraordinary lives of musical pioneers. I think people would like me to just be introverted and bleed for them forever. Legend, the Joni Mitchell story, with me, Jessica Hoop. Listen now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.