Woman's Hour - Impact of Eleanor Williams case, miracle baby, women in early animation, teachers' strike

Episode Date: January 9, 2023

Last week we reported how 22-year-old Eleanor Williams who claimed she had been trafficked and raped by an Asian grooming gang was convicted of perverting the course of justice. She will be sentenced in March but we consider the possible impact her conviction could have on how rape is reported, how it’s handled by the police and whether women are believed. We hear from the former chief prosecutor for the north west Nazir Ali and Maggie Oliver, the former senior police officer who became a whistle blower for exposing the poor handling of the Rochdale child sex abuse ring case by her own force. Whether it's rail, nurses, ambulance staff or postal workers strikes are becoming an increasingly common part of life. Could teachers across the UK be the next to follow? This week sees some teachers in Scotland striking with unions in England, Wales and NI. balloting their members in the coming days. Three quarters of teachers are female. Nuala talks to a teacher with nearly 30 years experience Michelle Richards and Natalie Perera, Chief Executive of the Education Policy Hira Ahmad is the first woman with Bruck Syndrome, a brittle bone condition, to give birth to a healthy baby. The 28-year-old gave birth to baby girl Dua last January l and now wants to share her story to inspire others with similar conditions. She was given specialist care in St George's Hospital, London led by Professor Asma Khalil, consultant in obstetrics and maternal foetal medicine. Until recently, it was believed that the early pioneers of animation had all been men. That consensus was shattered when historian Mindy Johnson uncovered the previously unseen work of the animator Bessie Mae Kelley from the 1920s. Kelley’s films are now the earliest surviving hand-drawn animations by a woman (before this the earliest woman’s work was from the 1950s.) Mindy joins Nuala McGovern to discuss gender bias in film history and why this discovery is so ground-breaking.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. I hope you had a good weekend. Well, we want to follow up on a conversation we were having last week on Eleanor or Ellie Williams, as she is also known. She was convicted of eight counts of perverting the course of justice for falsely claiming she had been raped and trafficked by an Asian grooming gang. Now, this is a highly unusual case, but one that some believe may have future implications for people coming forward to report rape, among other societal impacts.

Also, schools are facing further closures in Scotland. That's as teachers prepare for a fresh wave of strike action. There are talks taking place today. Elsewhere in the UK, there are teachers also considering industrial action over pay. Now, the vast majority of teachers are female. So we want to talk about your reality of teaching in a post-pandemic world and also whether strikes are the answer you can text the program and the number is 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate our social media or at bbc woman's hour and you can also email us through our website whatsapp message or voice note you can also do using the number 03700 100 444. Data charges may apply depending on your provider so you might want to use wi-fi if you can. Terms and conditions can be found on our

website. Do start getting them in. I'd like to put some of your comments to our guests that are coming up. And also if you were with me last week maybe you heard the conversation talking about being the only woman in the room. You know places and industries where women wear or are in short supply. So we're going to take a look at the world and history of hand-drawn animation. And one woman in particular, Bessie Mae Kelly, who until recently had been forgotten. So we want to bring you her story and also how she was rediscovered. And a good news story here about the birth of a baby

that has been called a world first. Baby Dua was born to Hira Ahmad, the first woman with Bruch syndrome. Now, that's a rare condition that causes brittle bones, but she's the first to give birth to a healthy baby. So we're going to find out more

about what it took to get there. So speaking to Hira and also the professor who helped her throughout her pregnancy to deliver baby Dua. But let us turn to the case of 22-year-old Eleanor Williams. You might have heard last week we were reporting that she had claimed she had been trafficked and raped by an Asian grooming gang and was convicted of perverting the course of justice. The jury heard how she had created fake social media accounts to make it look like she was being intimidated and that her injuries were self-inflicted.

She will be sentenced in March. But as the dust settles on this case, we discuss the possible impact her conviction could have on how rape is reported, how it's handled by the police and which women are believed. I'm joined now by Nazir Afzal, who was, I should say, Chief Crown Prosecutor for North West England and has been involved in a number of grooming gang cases.

Also by Maggie Oliver, the former senior police officer who became a whistleblower for exposing the poor handling of the Rochdale child sex abuse ring, a case that was by her own force and now runs the Maggie Oliver Foundation, which works with victims and also survivors of childhood sexual abuse. You're both so welcome. Thanks for joining Women's Hour this morning. Good morning. Good morning, Maggie.

Nazir, let me begin with you. How serious are the future implications of this case, in your opinion? I mean, it's not going to be a situation that will improve things, let's put it bluntly. 10, 11 years ago, and Maggie and I will know this very well, the police approach was to treat every or pretty much every victim with enormous scepticism. And they would work on the basis that, well, we don't believe her, let's see what the case proves to be the case. And we changed that. We brought about a significant change where we started on the principle that you believe the complainant when

they come forward and then you investigate it, which is the right approach. I mean, you would do that with a burglary, for example. You wouldn't say to a victim of a burglary burglary didn't happen you prove that no the police need to investigate it and then uh we a few years ago five or six years ago we had the carl beach saga which was the operation midland which was a man making allegations against some of my profile figures which was clearly uh which were found to be lies he was then convicted and given 18 years in prison and there was a real pushback then people were saying oh no hang on a minute we shouldn't be having this principle of belief we should again try and treat everybody with skepticism so there was a it went

backwards and for a little while uh it meant that many people who were making allegations weren't treated with the seriousness that they ought to be treated. And my danger, my fear is that that's the same thing that will happen here, that on the basis of one case, and it's only one case and one person, other victims will be given, will be denied justice. And that can't be the right approach. I hope that people will realise that this was a one-off, a terrible one-off, but nonetheless a one-off. And most victims, in fact, research we carried out in NULA in 2013 when I was prosecuting,

was that one in 300, it's only one in 300 victims who make a rape allegation are found to be false. So it's a very small number, 0.3%. So it's a tiny percentage that you quote there. Maggie, you know, it would be profound, though, if it changes in any of the aspects that Nazir has mentioned there. How are you thinking duck it? Because it gives me many uncomfortable feelings, some of which I can't go into, obviously, because of legal protections. But if I feel this way, what about all the victims and survivors throughout the country who are now feeling some kind of uncomfortable feeling? Or are they going to be believed? Or will they come forward um and you

know faith potentially and that they will have a fear in their head that they will be um potentially prosecuted for perverting the course of justice an unrealistic fear but nonetheless one that many have contacted me about last week but in my 20 years of dealing with these kinds of crimes um noala this is the very first time that i have heard of a case like this except for the carl beach cage that case that nazir has just mentioned and i would be really sad if victims felt silenced um often they are criminalized um as a consequence of their abuse and at the foundation we hear that repeatedly that is why we stand alongside them to make sure they are not um a lone voice in what can be a very um adversarial um system you know we're here to help, but this case does raise many questions. And I do feel for the young men who were falsely accused. My heart goes out to them. You know, I have got three

sons and there can be nothing worse than being falsely accused of rape. But it is rare. It is extremely rare. And the people involved in that case, of course, are one aspect. But what we're also getting to hear are those larger societal impacts that may be held or, you know, affected by it. Maggie, to you, the newspapers are saying that you supported Ellie and her family. Can you tell our listeners what was your level of involvement? Yeah, it was a very low level of involvement. At the beginning, my foundation, we support every victim or survivor that says they have been abused. But I believe in a criminal justice system, it is the job of the police to investigate, to follow the evidence, put it before a court and for a jury to decide. But the most important thing that a victim needs

is a good legal defence. And my only involvement, I've never spoken to Ellie, my only involvement in this case at the beginning was to introduce Ellie's family and Ellie to the Centre for Women's Justice and Harriet Wistrich because I believe that they are the best legal firm when it comes to dealing with these kinds of crimes. Other than that, I've had no involvement.

That really is the truth. But this case, you know, I've questioned myself with her being found guilty of perverting the course of justice. Would I do anything differently again? I probably wouldn't because I believe it's the job of the police to investigate. And this young girl was making claims of having been abused and groomed. And there's still many factors of that that are not in the public arena. So it isn't black and white,

as the media would have everybody believe. You talk there that you would have done the same thing again. You also talk about being uncomfortable in this interview. Do you have regret about believing her? No, I don't, because I believe it is the right of a victim to be believed and for then the police to do their job and investigate. It isn't the job of the police or any or the CPS to make a judgment call at the beginning of the process. It is their job to listen, to investigate and for the system itself then to take its course. Far too often, a victim will go to the police and be disbelieved or pushed away at the beginning of the process.

And we, you know, in three years since I started the foundation, we've helped over 3,000 victims. And the vast majority of those come to us because they feel they are not being heard so i would not want that to change i would want them to still be listened to and if there is evidence there to prosecute for um trying to pervert the course of justice then the process has to you know see itself out but you know i've seen this before, Noelle. In the Rochdale case, I saw Amber accused of being a madam and added to an indictment. It's taken 10 years for her to clear her name. She was recently awarded an award for holding the state to account. She was demonised by the press, but the press doesn't always tell the full truth.

Well, we have to take what we have at the moment. I know there are some ongoing legal cases which we can't talk about today either. But I want to pick up on some of the issues that you've raised there, Maggie, and go back to Nazir. Because as I understand it, you were initially approached to represent Eleanor O'Reilly, as she's also known. What were you thinking when you were approached? I was approached by supporters of Ellie Williams 27 months ago, actually. And I did what I would normally do,

which is a bit of due diligence. I made one phone call to Cumberland Police saying that I'd been approached. Could you give me what you can tell me at that stage? They did. And I said, well, fine. OK. I don't know much Latin, but what I do know is the words come debito, desista, which means when in doubt, don't. But what was the doubt? Well, the police were carrying out a very thorough investigation

in relation to the allegations that she had made. They had reached conclusions already in relation to some of the matters that she had raised. I took the view that my adding anything to the mix would have been inappropriate. It was let the justice system, as Maggie said, let the justice system do what it's meant to do, which is properly investigate and ultimately make sure there's a fair trial. And that's what did happen in this case.

So I took that view. Due diligence is what you need. The worst thing one can do, and I speak only for myself here, is that you just add fuel to a fire fire what was more important is that actually we stood back and let the system do what it was going to do and you know credit to cumbrian police by the way they carried out a very very good investigation in relation to the allegations that were made and that i mean that's what the judge said and i i'll agree with that and i think it's important uh that um the sentencing reflects what happened. But as I go

back to what's been said at the outset, Nuala, this is extremely rare. Thank God it's rare. And prosecuting pervert caused justice. I'm thinking back on my career. I think I must have prosecuted half a dozen cases out of a million. You know, there are very, very few cases. It's a very high threshold to bring. But let's talk about that because you know people do remember the headlines not the granular details of individual cases even though this is one that is rare.

Her photograph as we know has been everywhere including with those injuries and will the lasting memory of this case be that women make fake rape allegations, even though this is about one person and one case? Well, I hope not. And of course, you know, I know from experience, good defence lawyers will make hay. In another case, they will say, members of the jury, you probably remember.

And that's the kind of thing we need to be wary of. But prosecutors say, members of the jury, you probably remember. And that's the kind of thing we need to be wary of. But prosecutors at the end of the day will present the evidence that needs to be presented in those cases. I've no doubt that people will make hay, if that's the right phrase. But at the same time, we have to recognise it's very, very rare. One in 300 cases I mentioned earlier on. And that's data. And it's not just an anecdote. And so we put that case before a court. Yeah, I suppose, how do you get that message across to somebody's historical memory

for juries or the general public? Good prosecutors. At the end of the day, the general public don't make a decision on a case. It'll be the jury that does. So there's 12 people in the courtroom. And for the prosecutor and the judge to make sure that

they have all the facts before them, and they only base their finding on the evidence that they hear in the court. So, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we have a jury system, that's what it's there for, and it'll protect the innocent at the same time as it'll convict the guilty. So I'm not wary about that. I just think that in a public discourse, I don't want people to be deterred from coming forward. Well, that's Maggie's point. You know, it happened after Operation Midland. It happened with Carl Beach. I don't want the same thing happening again.

People who are victims need to get the support they get from Maggie and organisations like Maggie's and make sure that they are, make their report and then the police do their job. Well, let me throw that back over to Maggie because do you have faith in the system as Nazir was outlining? I do believe in the system. You know, my whole life changed

because I believe in a criminal justice system that needs to be fit for purpose. I do believe, I i mean nazir knows that not everything goes in front of a court um but you know i too did make a couple of phone calls before i shared that post um to other professional organizations in barrow and also lawyers up there and i was assured that yes um that there was credence to this. So it's not a simple case. I want victims to feel that they can come forward,

that they will be heard. And if they are telling the truth, do not fear the system. We have to believe in a system and we have to have one that works. May I just go back briefly with you, Maggie, about crowdfunding money

that was raised. This was for Ellie Williams. It was twenty two thousand, I believe, that people have talked about. Can you talk about your involvement or not in that? Yeah, absolutely. No involvement. It was a just giving fund that was set up by somebody in Barrow. And they agreed, well, what they said was that money that wasn't used for Ellie's defence would be split between two charities. And they named my, you know, our charity, the Maggie Oliver Foundation, never expected to get a penny anyway.

But last week when they contacted me to say there's £11,000, I said, you know, we can't accept it because it would feel unethical in the circumstances. And I think that the people who donated should be given their money back. I think that that's not possible. But, you know, other than that, I don't know the man who set the Just Giving Fund up.

But my understanding is that he did it for the right reasons. He, you you know felt that this bill needed help and he was trying to help erase the money to defend herself and i think it's backfired on him um because of what's happened but i don't think that there was any ill will in him putting that fund together and from my perspective we have absolutely nothing to do with it and have not received and will not receive a penny I want to thank both of you and also to people who are getting in touch

saying the successful prosecution rate is already extremely low talking about not false allegations and maybe we need to do a show about that too we have in the past and we will again indeed in the future Maggie Oliver thank you so much for joining us

and also to Nazir Afzal. Also, I should say, if you have been affected by what we have been discussing, do go online and search for BBC Action Line at the support page with some links there to help you. I want to turn to teachers

next among the many strikes, right? Rail, nurses, ambulance staff, postal workers. I suppose they're really part of our life now, aren't they? They appear to be, particularly over the past few months. But the question is about teachers across the UK. Could they be next to follow? So tomorrow we'll see some teachers in Scotland striking,

other leaders representing unions in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. They're meeting the Education Secretary today and it is a dispute about pay. As I mentioned earlier, the teaching profession is predominantly female. Three quarters of teachers are women. Some of you have been getting in touch

and I'll get to your comments. Thanks very much that are coming in already. I want to bring in Michelle Richards, head of German at a mixed comprehensive school in South Devon and has been a teacher for nearly 30 years. Natalie Pereira is chief executive

of the Independent Education Policy Institute. That's a research charity which she co-founded in 2016. Prior to that, Natalie worked in the Department for Education. So great to have both of you with us. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Michelle, let me start with you straight in. What are your thoughts about these strikes that I've mentioned? Well, I won't be striking.

I have taken strike action in the past. And in fact, I felt that it was counterproductive. We didn't have the public with us. And after the last time, I think I've only taken strike action twice in my whole career. And after the last time, I actually changed to a non-striking union.

Yeah, so I won't be balloted and I won't be taking action anyway. I mean, I don't know if these goes ahead, whether the public will be with them. If the public was with the teachers, does that change your opinion? Well, if it's about pay,

I think we all need a pay rise. It's not just teachers. And I think after you've started to make your way up the career ladder a little way the pay is not bad it's really the conditions that I think most teachers are bothered about and I don't know if you're going to come on to this but it's kind of the challenging behaviour of students and the long school day the relentless workload that I feel is more of a problem and the fact that the government doesn't seem to understand where to put the money if they put any money in.

That's that's kind of the feeling I get from my colleagues here. You know, we got a text in from Kate Taylor. Hi, Kate. She's in Birmingham, primary school teacher. She is echoing some of what you're saying. Teaching has become increasingly stressful due to the lack of funding, lack of resources and lack of specialist support from outside agencies all the time with increasing workload and scrutiny. Add to that a real terms pay cut of 20% over the last 12 years and it's the

perfect storm for the significant recruitment and retention crisis we're facing. I voted yes for Strike Action to protect the profession I love and the future of the children I teach. Education should be seen as an investment, not a cost, says Kate. But let's dig down into that. And I want to hear also from our listeners who are in the teaching profession what the reality is like teaching at the moment.

I'm struck by one thing you mentioned there, behaviour. And I know there has been conversations about this in a post-pandemic world. Tell me what you're seeing, what you're hearing. Well, we are having, we get scenes every year, more challenging students. We are almost parenting them, even though they're, I teach in an 11 to 18 school. And it's not just that they're bringing ever more complex problems with them there are no spaces in special schools in the whole of the area that i work in i know that so they will definitely come to one of our schools and we are not sufficiently trained to know how to deal with

them break duty for example is is extremely challenging i'm on break duty shortly and um it will be mayhem out on the corridors trying to organize those children trying to sort of tell them where they're supposed to go the language that they give you back and we are in a reasonably good school it's it is mostly post pandemic i suppose but it's also the fact that we we've got children whose kind of sort of problems that they bring with them, we don't really understand as ordinary classroom teachers. We are not trained sufficiently. And I don't know that they should be just kind of left to fend for themselves running around in the corridors.

But these disputes are about pay, if I've understood correctly. And changing pay is not going to change the behaviour of those students. No. changing pay is not going to change the behaviour of those students. No, the money, if there is any, needs to go in to other, you know, supporting those kids, supporting us. It's the stress that we're under as well. I mean, I think stress is a factor here. We've got eight teachers in my department and at one time or other four of us have been off with stress some for considerable amounts of time and it's not just the students it's the workload and it as your caller said earlier it's it's the the scrutiny that you're under as well and there are

only so many hours in a day and i'm part-time and i i started being part-time when i had uh children when my children were young. But the day is so full, the workload is so enormous that I have never gone back up to full. I've gone up to 0.8, but I've never taken on the full role again. And that has an effect on my pension as well because obviously I'm not earning as much as I would do. But I know, I just personally, I cannot cope with it.

And I'm an experienced teacher. Do you feel like you're working full time? 100%. I worked yesterday. I work on my days off just to keep my head above water and to do a good job.

I want to do a good, good job. According to Labour Party analysis of the Department for Education Statistics, of 270,000 teachers who qualified in England, this is between 2011 and 2020 Education Statistics of 270,000 teachers who qualified in England. This is between 2011 and 2020. More than 81,000 have since left the profession. So three in 10, let's say. I'm curious whether that surprises you and then I'll come to you, Natalie. It doesn't surprise me in the least. The gap between the theory that you learn at university and the practice of coming in.

And I've known young teachers who couldn't even get the class quite enough to start their retrieval you know their first kind of their starter activity it's also I think the scrutiny and the fact that they're in meetings before school they're in meetings after school they don't get that chance to properly collaborate with with other staff members yeah, I feel really sorry for them because it is a fantastic job at the heart of it. I'm just reading a comment as I'm listening to you coming in. I don't have a name here, but he or she, possibly she talking about the three quarters of teachers that are female, but says, I left teaching last year after two decades.

I loved working with the kids and families, but the education system is toxic for everyone. Power relations are exploited at every level. It's all pathological and deeply damaging.

Strong words, right? Children are given labels such as lazy or underachieving or attention seeking, which stay with them throughout their lives. When we understand the relational basis

of all learning and use evidence-based approaches grounded in compassionate curiosity to support each other, we can overcome barriers. But talks about education being poorly funded and undervalued and hostage to popular politics. What about that, Natalie? That is a teacher outlining why they left. First, are you surprised by the three in ten? Good morning. So first of all, I'm not surprised by that three in ten figure and that resonates with the research by my own organisation as well. But as I think it was Kate who texted you in from Birmingham alluded to, there is a lot going on here and she describes it as a perfect storm which I tend to agree with. So we've

got the issue of teacher pay which has fallen in real terms over the last decade or so and quite considerably and that when we compare that to international counterparts actually England ranks very low on pay growth. We've also got the issue as we've just heard about teacher retention and one in three leaving after about five to ten years. We've got an overall problem with the supply of teachers particularly into STEM subjects like physics and maths. And then underpinning all of that, as Michelle and others have talked about, we've got this wider context of cuts to other children's services over the last decade or so, and that includes early intervention, children's mental health services are notoriously difficult to access and we estimate

that about one in four young people are being turned away from specialist services because there just isn't the capacity so a perfect storm is a really good way I think of describing the situation that many teachers up and down the country are facing. It's not just about pay in itself. It's about workload and lots of other conditions that they're facing. Which I think is coming through loud and clear with our texts. That number is 84844 if you want to get in touch. I work in a secondary school, says this listener. Six years ago, we had 23 teaching assistants. Today we have six with increasing behaviour and learning difficulties. Teaching has become complex. I am struggling. Let me turn to the Department for Education sent us a statement.

I'd be curious for your thoughts on this. And I should just reiterate that union members are meeting with the Education Secretary today. There are no great schools without great teachers, says the Department for Education, which is why we are making the highest pay awards in a generation. 5% for experienced teachers and more for those early in their careers, including an 8.9% increase

in starting salary. We're also investing an additional £2 billion in schools next year, £2 billion the year after, taking school funding to its highest level ever uh let me throw that back to you michelle does that make you hopeful no i don't think it will make any difference all it does is i think people feel trapped that they they want to get out of teaching but they're

then offered you know they're on a salary they need to pay their mortgage you get used to that amount of money coming in and um so they stay but they're literally keeping their head above water they're not doing a particularly good job I know quite a few people that are desperate to leave but they just feel that they can't so adding money to it I don't think well I mean I could be wrong but I don't think it's going to change enough. How would you get the attention and the funding for the schools if it's not through strikes, Michelle? I don't know. I keep coming back to this idea of like, you know, a work to rule kind of thing where, you know, they realise how much schools rely on goodwill from teachers and teaching assistants and other staff that, you know,

we come in early to help the students students we stay late to help the students all these that we have lunch times all these things that we do to help the students but it is it's not remunerated as such it's you know it's not down there as hours worked but it is part of what makes the school great it's part of what gives the students a good experience you know clubs and things like that taking students abroad i mean i'm the head of german so we go well we take students away so you're working all the weekend and all the rest of it to try not to cost to impact supply costs too much and then you straight back in monday morning and you do it because because you you you love your subject and you want the two children to have that great

cultural capital that taking away gives them but you, it's those kind of things maybe that perhaps if we withdrew, maybe that would have an effect. I don't know. I did notice Ruth, not a real name, who got in touch. She was saying that teachers are only paid for around five minutes to plan, resource, assess, mark and follow up an hour's lesson where 32 children are taught all with different abilities and needs and she's talking about the workload there also um a message from scotland i'm a retired teacher i would confirm the problems of your interviewees in scotland there's a huge problem with teacher support management have very few financial resources under pressure to control costs here's another one i'm a teacher who has given up. My hours meant we needed childcare from

7am to 6pm, even part-time, that 0.8 as you talked about, Michelle. I ended up working 50 plus hours a week. It was completely unsustainable with small children and I couldn't afford to pay for the level of childcare domestic help needed to keep going. I was a highly successful secondary leader for 15 years, but I'm exhausted. I decided I just had to give up for my own family. More pay would have helped sustain our family, but ultimately I needed the job to be less all-consuming and draining to be able to carry on.

So that is a different issue from pay. I think Michelle was outlining there for us, Natalie. What would you do? I mean, how do you retain these people and make it more sustainable? Is it working to rule, as Michelle mentions?

I'm not sure about that. I think some of what we have proposed in the Education Policy Institute is an overall increase in teachers' pay, but also targeting some of that increase to the areas and the subjects that need it most. So I talked about the fact that there's a shortage in particular of maths and physics teachers, and we know that it's more difficult to recruit and retain teachers in some of the more challenging areas and schools across the country. So I think there's an argument both for overall increases in pay, but also more targeting of pay. I think it's also important to note that one of the things, the points the unions are making, is that it's going to be very difficult to meet any increase in teacher pay from existing school budgets, because school budgets overall have been cut by about 8 to 10% over the last decade. Now, the government has said that with

the additional money it's putting in, it will take us back to 2010 levels. Now, you can argue whether that's ambitious enough after a decade of real-term cuts, but we need to be careful that any additional funding for teacher pay is indeed additional and there's not an expectation that it should be made available from existing school budgets, which we know are already under pressure. I understand. Michelle, just before I let you go briefly,

if a young person came to you and says, I'm thinking about becoming a teacher, what would you say? What would I say? I would say yes, it's a wonderful profession, but I would caution that with, you know, you're going to have to give other things up because your time is going to be spent working.

I want to thank both of you for taking some time out of your workday to speak to us here. Natalie Pereira is Chief Executive of the Independent Education Policy Institute and Michelle Richards,

Richards, excuse me, a head of German at the Mixed Comprehensive School in South Devon, a teacher for nearly 30 years. We'll continue following what happens with those talks that are taking place today with the Education Secretary and also in Scotland as well this week. Now I want to move next on to a good news story described as a world first. I'd like you to meet Hira Ahmad, who is the first woman with Bruch syndrome to give birth to a healthy baby. The syndrome is a very rare condition affecting fewer than 50 people in the world.

It's associated with brittle bones, stiff joints and also restricted growth. She's a 28-year-old Londoner and gave birth to baby Dua in January last year and wants to share her story to inspire others that may have disabilities. She was given specialist care in St George's Hospital led by Professor Asma Khalil, consultant in obstetrics and maternal fetal medicine and I'm pleased to say we have both Hira and Asma with us. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning Hira. First off congratulationsighted that you have baby Dua last January. Perhaps you could tell people who aren't familiar with Brunk's syndrome about how it affects your life and also what the thought process was maybe about becoming pregnant or trying to become pregnant?

So the way it's affected me personally is I'm a full-time wheelchair user and I've suffered with brittle bones, as you mentioned. And I used to break bones, I would say, every three to four months when I was little. And it was awful because you know I was bed bound for a long time it's affected my education and I had an abnormal spinal structure which resulted in me having a six-hour operation so as you can imagine it's affected me in many different ways you know carrying something, that would break a bone, that would give me a fracture, or, you know, resulting in actually breaking the bone. It was very difficult for me in my life. But you had the thought, I want to have a baby,

just talk me through that process. Yes, I was, I had my full will to have a baby. I was very determined. And it was my wish. You know, everyone has their little wishes. And I always thought that, yes, I didn't let my disability let me down. And I always had that motivation that I really want to have a baby. But it was an absolute surprise that she's a healthy baby. And the whole process, along with the NHS helping me, and Asma Khalil herself was absolutely amazing in supporting me and motivating me that everything will be OK. That in itself was a big accomplishment for me. Can you tell us about the moment you found out you were

pregnant what went through your mind so it was a bit of mixed feelings if i'm completely honest with you a lot of fear um and obviously along with a lot of happiness but um when the NHS got involved, then I felt some sort of, no, I mean, my fear didn't completely disappear, but I was satisfied that I've got that help. Well, let's get the NHS involved. Let's bring Asma in.

Good to have you with us, Asma. What were the implications for Hira's pregnancy? I mean, what sort of way were you thinking about it and what sort of specialist care might be needed because as I mentioned it's a world first well thank you for having me and so Hira has as you heard she has very stiff joints and her bones are deformed which meant that she can't have vaginal births. Also, her spine is very twisted, and that means a epidural might not work.

Therefore, she needs a general anesthetic, and we know that this is less safe to pregnant women. Also, Hira is a very small person. She only measures 30 kilograms, so she will not be able to cope with a large amount of blood loss during the childbirth. And also, there's a higher chance of healthcare professionals with relevant expertise on standby. I did read that you were preparing together with a simulated theatre trial. What did that involve? I'll hear from here in a moment, but tell me from your side, Asma. So we wanted to be prepared. We arranged a mock theatre, almost a dress rehearsal,

where we got Hira and her husband to come and be present in the operating theatre, where we ensure that we can actually handle her gently, so we avoid fractures of her bones, that we ensure that we have the right equipment and also this mock theatre with a large team of healthcare professionals with the relevant expertise and also very importantly for her husband. So to be familiar with the environment of being in theatre or with an emergency situation, you might have 20 healthcare professionals. So to avoid him being overwhelmed with an emergency situation. How was it for you here going through that dress rehearsal, as we're calling it?

Well, I appreciated it a lot because, first of all, if I didn't have that experience, then I'll be extremely overwhelmed on the actual day. And second of all, I wanted to put out there to all the NHS healthcare that this is what I can and can't do. So that made me more relaxed and um made me feel happy and the actual birth the actual birth I mean on the day um I did a lot of breathing exercise to make myself calm down uh it was very um a type of day that I wouldn't want to experience again, but then the end result, having Dua, a healthy baby, was just unimaginable. And meeting her for the first time? Oh, that was, I mean, I couldn't believe that.

And there's times just now I would get flashbacks and think, oh my God, is she really my baby wow and she is and she's about to turn one how has this year been um because obviously the pregnancy had various issues that that had to be looked at very carefully what about being a mum oh um it's a very exciting um journey I'm completely honest with you. But for me, it's quite different from anyone else because there's a lot of tasks that I can and can't do. And I always need the assistance, whether that be my husband or my mum. I feel like I can't do a lot of things on my own so there's sometimes sad feelings but then

I'm so happy that I've had a baby first of all and that she's a healthy baby and the fact that I'm healthy myself even now it's just a bonus on top. And I'm sure it will change you know she's almost one which of course requires certain things that won't be required when she's five for example you know your journey will change being a mother as she grows as well but Asma this is a story of you know medical advances that are wonderful and I'm wondering I know the Brooks syndrome is a very rare condition but maybe it can offer hope to others and I know that's why Hero wants to get that story out there. What do you think?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, approximately 1% of pregnant women have a form of disability, which could range from physical disability, like problems with movement, or sensory. So you have problems with sight or hearing or could be intellectual disability but as the society society has become more supportive of those born with disability and that has created a stronger desire to push the boundaries of medicine to improve treatment so as we are able to look after these women safely and achieve better outcomes, it's likely that more pregnant women who have disability or more women who have disability will get pregnant.

But I really want to use the opportunity to send a clear message to those who are listening to us. If you have a disability and want to consider getting pregnant, I think it's really important to get in touch with your doctor so that you can discuss the potential impact of this disability on pregnancy and also the potential impact of the pregnancy on this medical condition and how we can support you. We hear that Hira as well and also Dua is. How did it feel to be the person helping guide that and making that happen, Asma? It's been an absolute pleasure looking after Hira and going through the journey of her pregnancy and

with the delivery of this beautiful baby girl and maybe on behalf of the team, the large team we are extremely delighted they have this fantastic outcome Doula is a beautiful, healthy baby girl and

I'm really glad for you and your husband that you have managed to achieve this um this outcome that's wonderful here we are delighted for you as well happy birthday to baby dua and uh congratulations on on sharing your story as well which i think is such a hopeful lovely story uh to be able to share with our listeners here on Woman's Hour. That is Professor Asma Khalil, who was with Hira Ahmad and talking, of course,

about Baby Dua. Now, I want to turn to animation. Until recently, it was believed that pioneers of hand-drawn animation had all been men. This was the consensus that my next guest, the author and historian Mindy Johnson, refused to accept.

Mindy spent five years searching for evidence that a woman animated and directed alongside male titans of the art form, such as Dave Fleischer and Walt Disney, of course. And last year, she made a groundbreaking discovery, the work of a previously overlooked female animator, Bessie Mae Kelly, from the 1920s. Bessie's films, which Mindy discovered, are now the earliest surviving hand-drawn animations by a woman.

And I spoke to Mindy earlier this morning and started by asking her why she went looking for Bessie's legacy. I'd had a theory. Many of our early men of animation, Windsor McKay, Sidney Smith and others had taken this art form and put it on the stage in Vaudeville in lightning sketches and sort of quick draws for audiences. I'd had a theory that, well, if men were doing this, women probably were too. So I had received a lovely award from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, the Film Scholar Award, to continue research into our earliest women. And that seemed a logical place to start. So it was thumbing through some early vaudeville materials that I came across this name and an affiliation with animation that took a few more years but to unlock but um that's pretty much how it started so because when you look back you mentioned some of the names there the men uh that were in the

room shall we talk about uh Because we've often talked about, last week we were talking about sometimes the only woman in the room, which it sounds like Bessie Mae Kelly was. You came across a photograph, was it, that she was in with a group of men? It was actually a series of sketches that were completed by one of her colleagues.

They would often have downtime between productions. So it seems he was sketching his colleagues, and they belonged to another historian, who when I had queried about this particular studio, Bray Studios, he'd mentioned he'd had these sketches, but presumed with all these men, there was one woman and presumed it was likely a secretary or a cleaning woman. And I said, well, could you send me a quick snapshot of it or describe it to me? And he did. He described a similar look, a 1920s flapper look that I have a couple of photos of Bess in. And sure enough, it was a match.

And I'd ask, well, did it ever cross your mind that she could be an animator? Apparently not. There's that unconscious bias that we all get plagued with where we see a person, a gender, and we make assumptions. How did it feel when you found her and what difference do you think it makes to know about her legacy? Well, initially when I found her, I even thought, since I was looking in vaudeville, some of what was stated in this article about her, I thought was a little far-fetched. She worked at Bray Studios, she worked at Fleischer Studios, that she designed the earliest mice couple years before Mickey and Minnie appeared. It seemed to me a bit much,

but as I found her, found her collection, unearthed more about her, it all unfolded. And it's important. This is vital in the sense that it completely changes the narrative that we've all grown up with, all that we thought we knew about our collected animated past. is written, archived, preserved, documented through a male perspective. And we've all missed out on half of our human experience by not knowing about the women who have always been in the room. And you... This instance, it changes everything. It changes every textbook, every lecture, every film, every... To know that there was a woman in the room very early on who was animating and directing.

And you mentioned a mouse couple there. And of course, we would think of Minnie and Mickey probably when we think of animation and we think of Walt Disney. What was the intersection between Walt Disney and Bessie Mae Kelly, if anything? Well, there were a couple of intersections. She had been part of the early Bray Studios and worked at Fleischer Studios. When Walt and Roy would travel to New York, they knew each other. They knew all the early animators. She had met Walt and Roy had been introduced at some point in the early, 20s mid to late 20s but in the early 1920s she

worked with Paul Terry on his Aesop's Fables series and it's there that she was asked to design the first mouse couple mice had been a part of many of the earliest, you know, Crazy Cat and his mouse companion, and mice were part of the Farmer Alfalfa series, a whole range of early, the earliest series of animation, but we never really had a couple. So she developed who she named Roderick and Gladys. And similar to the Mickey and Minnie mythnie myth legend rather that uh mickey originally was going to be mortimer mouse and it was mrs disney lily and disney who suggested mickey similar to that the names were changed to milton and mary mouse that bess had had done. But she designed these characters and they appeared in animation years before Mickey and Minnie, at least four years before Mickey and Minnie

were even appearing on screens in the US. So do we know whether Walt Disney was influenced by them or copied that couple? Well, there's no, as he said, mice were always prevalent. But he is on record as saying that when he began shaping animation in Kansas City and starting his career in animation, that he wanted to make cartoons as good as Aesop's Fables. Which is where Bessie was. He was creating, exactly. You know, she's taken up a lot of your life, Bess.

I'd be curious to know what sort of woman she was from what you found out, because how did she end up with, you know, this incredible career, really, that was then obviously lost for many years. Tell us more about her. Yeah, a century. She was born in Pennsylvania and grew up on the border of the US and New Brunswick in Canada, just over the river in the U.S., in a place called Caribou, Maine. She was a pretty vivacious, very bubbly personality and apparently continued to be in the latter part of her life. I was able, through the years of research that it took to find this collection and learn about her, I was able to find a great niece and great nephew who had her collection,

and there were the surviving films. Sadly, one of the cans, which we know contained some lost, what were perceived to be lost films, sadly, they're still lost, but she did direct. These were the Gasoline Alley cartoon series that she directed, as well as a newsreel film in Los Angeles just a couple of weeks ago on the 100th anniversary of these films. So these constitute the earliest surviving hand-drawn animation animated and directed by a woman. And I'm thinking, if you've discovered Bessie Mae Kelly, and you are putting her work out there, as you describe, maybe there were other

women. There were, there were many other women. What's unique about Bess is that her collection, as small, relatively small as it is to a lot of the men's collections, is large and vast in the fact that we have these surviving films. So I'm currently working on a book that will share more about women at the dawn of an industry, the industry of animation, and also working on a documentary about her and these other many other women we just don't have as much there are literally threads of information that i've got to grasp onto and weave together to get the story told again as i mentioned history is not necessarily kind to women and their stories so we have have to work longer, a little extra harder to find these stories and get them told. And I'm wondering as well, what difference this discovery and legacy, I guess, will make for women animators now? It is, it's making great strides. I teach a class at CalArts, the California Institute of the Arts here in Southern California, as well as remotely with other campuses. And right now we have more women studying animation than we do men. Yet the industry is the complete inverse. So we need to work at changing that. And there's lots of terrific goals here to get that inverted so that we do have women, at least equal're more confident in their work. And it shows everyone really that

we need these stories. We've all missed out on not knowing the other half of our collected past. And in this way, by informing and educating the next generation, we can hopefully change that. And before I let you go, Mindy, you did get to know the family. I did, yes. Still getting to know the family since the event just a couple of weeks ago and the new word out about Bessie Mae Kelly, more family members have come forward from other sides of her family. So stay tuned. There's going to be more details about her. And more families are coming forward once they know there's somebody out there looking for this side of our collected past.

And we can get their stories told. Mindy Johnson there. Well, let's move from the world of animation back to teaching just for a moment. A message that came in from Alison. She said, I left teaching having become ill repeatedly, twice with exhaustion, 60 hour weeks. Terrible behaviour from kids and parents who've been told by governments that teen pregnancy, drug abuse is all the teacher's fault. And she says, but there are more parents who vote than are teachers.

I'll talk to you tomorrow. Goodbye. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Another thunderstorm. Lights out. Sometimes I just can't hear difference between thunder or shelling or explosions. Documentary adventures that invite a closer listen. We were willing to put not only our bodies on the line,

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I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

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