Woman's Hour - Imtiaz Dharker, Catherine Nicholson and Agnes Poirier, Clare Murphy, Dr Alison Smith

Episode Date: February 14, 2022

The award-winning poet Imtiaz Dharker has specially selected her favourite "Love Poems" together in a beautiful collection for the Folio Society. There are recent and ancient poems, poems that talk about the animal magnetism of love and others of more profound devotion, but they have all been arranged carefully to speak across centuries and cultures. Imtiaz also shares with Emma her writing tips for those who want to compose something for the person they love today.A record number of women are standing in the French presidential elections in April across the breadth of the political landscape. It’s the first election since the global #metoo movement and commentators are considering whether this could have an impact on the outcome. We hear from Catherine Nicholson who is the European Affairs Editor at France 24 TV and Agnes Poirier UK Editor of L'Express.At-home early abortions were introduced at the start of the pandemic to prevent the number of people visiting clinics, but the legislation is due to expire next month. We speak to Clare Murphy, boss of BPAS, about her fears for pregnant women if the government revokes the measures. You may have been online searching for long-lost members of your family - trying to build that family tree. But now there's a chance to search pictures of relatives too. The National Portrait Gallery has teamed up with the website Ancestry to upload thousands of portraits of well-known and ordinary people it has in their collection. But the gallery has also announced a competition giving the public the chance to submit their own family photos to be selected and displayed. Dr Alison Smith from the National Portrait Gallery tells us how people can make their entries.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Giles Aspen

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Are you in the mood for love this Monday morning? Or at least wanting to try and express it? It is the 14th of February. I could ignore it or we could make a virtue of having an excuse to try and express love to those in our life, the ones that we really do love.

It doesn't have to be a partner. You may be solo. That may be choice. It may not be choice. All of the above, all of the below. But friends and family too. How do you express love? Have you ever considered writing a poem?

Some of you are very good at this. I know this because I've asked you to deliver on this front before, and you've got in touch in your droves. I'll be joined today by the award-winning poet, Imnitiaz Dhaka, who's going to be joining us with a collection of love poems and perhaps helping you find your voice. Are you inspired maybe to try and write a few lines? Go on, give it a go. If you feel that you could, share them with me today, share them with us all. Get in touch on 84844. That's the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour.

Perhaps you've also got some advice and share some inspiration. On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. Of course, I'm always in the market for the really bad words, the really bad experiences as well. If you've received some poetry that perhaps you can remember or care to share that was truly awful, I'm also here for that. I'm always here for that. So do get in touch. Also on today's programme, as you've just been hearing in the news, the controversial decision

has been made that the 15-year-old Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva can compete again at, excuse me, at the Winter Olympics despite her failing a drugs test. But what could the ramifications be for a young woman allowed to compete in a global competition after failing a drug test? We'll get some of that shortly. A record number of women are standing in the French presidential elections this April across the breadth of the political landscape. Do any of them stand a chance against President Macron?

And how rolling back coronavirus legislation in England a month early could impact women. All that to come and your messages, please. I await these beautiful words of love or not. But it is being reported that a decision is expected today on whether Dame Cressida Dick will stay in her Metropolitan Police Commissioner post until the Downing Street Partygate inquiry is complete. The Daily Mail reports that negotiations between Dame Cressida and Mayor of London Sadiq Khan's office over her departure are likely to be finalised very soon. The Commissioner, of course the first woman to run the Met Police, resigned on Friday after losing the confidence of the London Mayor. Her ultimate leaving date could be as far as two months away, which could mean that Dame Cressida will steer the Met through the conclusion of its inquiries into allegations of lockdown breaking parties in Downing Street. But should she? And

was effectively sacking her the best move? Janet Hills, former chair of the Metropolitan Black Police Association and former detective sergeant. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. You are in a position, of course, of having been inside the Met, but also now being on the outside. Have you got a view about whether she should be imposed, first of all, to oversee the Metropolitan Police's investigation into Downing Street? Just in terms of that, you know, the commissioner, even though she sits at the top, she's not going to be the SIO. So that investigation will be going ahead anyway um and they will have certain checks and balances in place in terms of that investigation which they would inform the commissioner or someone in that senior role about

and and clearly there's always the deputy uh commissioner as well so you know just in terms of that aspect the fact that she's there or not, that investigation is still running ahead. It was just because some may say it's a curious situation that the government will now get to choose the next chief of the Met Police at the same time as it investigates the prime minister and his team for allegedly breaking the law. So I take the point that she won't be on the team per se, but it's a curious moment. Should we put it like that? Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, as I said, the investigation team will be looking at the evidence. They'll be collecting that. Apparently questionnaires have already gone out. So all of that work will be happening at the same time as all the other stuff in the background is happening.

So, you know, no investigation is going to be put on hold because there's not a senior investigation officer. So for me, you know, that still stands, it still goes ahead. The evidence is what it is. And, you know, whether she's there or not, that investigation will still go ahead. We should say Boris Johnson received his questionnaire from the police over the weekend and has until the end of the week, as we understand it, to respond. I suppose at the heart of that question, which will bring us on to your. I suppose at the heart of that question, which will bring us on to your wider views about this, is whether she should go quickly or not,

because the circumstances of her leaving, having had her term extended by the Home Secretary, came about at the end of last week after a series of reports and damning reports and revelations about the Met Police. Do you think she should be gone quickly? Or again, is that not necessarily something that matters to rank and file officers? I think it does matter to rank and file officers, the fact that they're losing the head of their organisation,

who a lot of officers have that confidence in her to deliver. So the fact that she's staying, I think that will help with the internal confidence for officers to think that she's still there and overseeing the organisation and for me you know that is a matter for obviously the political parties and the mayor and everybody else agreement of when she goes but clearly there needs to be someone else that comes in at that time. So it allows for that to happen, for the right person, hopefully, to come in and steer the organisation. And on Cressida Dick herself, there were some comments, if you like, after the flurry of the announcement,

that started to reflect on perhaps an irony of a man getting rid of the first woman to run the Metropolitan Police, a man saying she hadn't done enough. What do you make of that, just as that particular point? So, you know, I am a fan of Cresta, Dame Cresta, in terms of what she has tried to deliver. But actually, if you're not delivering on what, you know, communities would want to see, then actually that is the mayor's thing to come in and say, look, you know, communities are not happy.

There's lack of confidence, the lowest it's been for years, that actually that conversation needs to be had. And if, you know, you're not delivering, then actually then it's right and proper that, you know, that should be said. And, you know, if the decision is then that she decides to resign, then so be it. But we need to have someone that comes in and understands the issues and puts those actions into place immediately. Do you think, though, there has been enough credit for her achievements and for what she was able to do? It's also been commented that you know she did have her term extended. You know I think there has been you know I don't think any police officer comes in to accept credit for doing the work so in terms of that I don't think there's that you know she'd want to

think that there's credit being afforded to her you come in you do the best job that you're you are able to do and then you know if people aren't satisfied then you make a decision on that um but yeah I don't think I think there's I think you know people accept that she's been in for 40 years she's given good service. But again, this probably was a bridge too far. I don't know. Misogyny was at the heart of a lot of the revelations recently that have been laid, certainly at her door as the Met Commissioner.

But you've also spoken out in the Times paper today saying racism in the Metropolitan Police got worse while she was the Commissioner. Why? You know, again, people, I put it back to when we had the Black Lives Matter protests. We were in the midst of a lockdown. You know, we had the highest stop and search figures recorded since stop and search began and disproportionately so for people from african and caribbean background which you know for me is like you know what are you doing you are at the quietest time in policing where we've seen those stop and search figures go through the roof and disproportionately so so it was things like that for me that sort of like said that you know we weren't getting it right.

And then when those conversations were had, it was dismissed as, you know, you know, I've got it wrong or, you know, that's not the way it is. And there was always a reason, a pushback for the fact that actually the figures were what they were. And actually, the police should be doing a bit more in terms of especially that lockdown period where we could have been really targeted around, you know, ensuring that we're arresting the right people for the right things rather than this broad brush approach that stop and search uses. when Cressida Dick was confronted over those sorts of things, because it's interesting to get an insight into her management style, she was dismissive of the concern as to why those figures were at that. And were you the person making those representations? Absolutely, yes. And I was. And, you know, it was, you know, in terms of what happened in America with George Floyd, you know, making the point that actually

this will impact here in the UK, but again, not really understanding why that would impact here, because of the issues around the Black community and policing over the years, which have been left and sort of dealt with, they haven't been dealt with, that black communities to feel in alignment with what happened in America. So, you know, eventually that did happen. We had all of the sort of protests and marches that were happening in London and across the country. And when you went to make, when did you leave in this position?

When did you stop? August last year. August last year. So when you were having these conversations with Cressida Dick, what should she or what were you hoping for the response to be that wasn't? What it is in terms of the staff support associations that exist within policing, we are sort of like the mouthpiece, for want of a better word, of the ground floor. So the things that are happening, the behaviours that are happening, the support that we're giving to our members is what we take to the senior leaders. Because at that level, all that's really happening is that the senior leaders around her are just basically, from my perspective, telling her what she wants to hear.

In terms of the staff support associations, we come with a different lens in terms of the lived experience of our membership. So what that allows is for, you don't necessarily take it to heart and you kind of do a broad brush approach, but it actually allows you to understand that there are rumblings of issues that are happening which you can nip in the bud. And in terms of that, that wasn't happening. How do you nip it in the bud?

What sort of thing could she have done? Because it sounds like some of the people around her were saying what she wanted to hear as opposed to making those changes. I understand that point. But nipping in the bud would mean what, as an example? You would have those conversations with the OCU commanders or the individuals that were in charge of those units

that would say, actually, we are aware that you have a problem and that needs to be sorted out. Which then, if they weren't aware, it would make them aware and then it would allow for those people that were potentially making the complaint and seeking support to be heard and for those issues to be addressed. So from your perspective, the removal of her or rather the effective resignation of her is the right decision for the Met at this time? I believe so. I believe so.

And in terms of those who say, well, there's also the irony, the misogyny displayed by, going back to that particular point, the misogyny displayed by some of the officers exposed, for instance, in the Charing Cross reports that we heard of those officers making those remarks in the police station. A woman's been removed for the misogyny of men, some men, we should stress again, and recognise we have lots of people who work in the police

who listen to this programme, who do not recognise this behaviour as their own or those around them, and are feeling pretty demoralised, I should also say, at the moment. Really want to remember that. But what do you say to those who say there's an irony of a woman being held to account for that and being removed and there isn't, it doesn't seem, a natural successor? Again, for me, policing has been around for nearly 200 years. And, you know, up until Dane Press's dick came in, it was all men. For some reason or another, they were able to have a grip on the behaviours because this has always been the case in terms of misogyny, racism, sexism, you know, homophobia, you name it.

It's always been the case within policing. But they, in terms of men being in charge, have managed to kind of keep a lid on it. In terms of Chris, she's got more of an open approach to that and kind of, you know, which didn't allow for that grip to happen and for things to be knit in the bud when they should have been. And that's, again, my personal perspective on that. We will see what plays out in terms of how long she's then going to stay before going and also who the successor will be. I'm sure we will talk again, Janet Hills. Thank you, former Detective Sergeant and Chair of the Metropolitan Black Police Association. Well, you have been getting in touch during that conversation,

while I'm sure listening to it, with some of your poems, some of your expressions of love, how you express it. Some of you also telling me what you've written only today or had written to you. I will come to those very shortly. But it is Valentine's, often slightly saccharin ditties in those cards or whatever you manage to fashion, but we have real expert help on hand. We have the award-winning poet Imtiaz Darka,

who specially selected her favourite poems in a beautiful collection, it has to be said, for the Folio Society called Love Poems. They're recent and ancient poems, poems that talk about the animal magnetism of love. Others, they display more profound devotion, but they've all been arranged carefully to speak across centuries and cultures. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Good morning.

I have to say, we've got some very funny poems coming in already. We've got some more profound ones. But why did you decide as a poet to focus some of your attention at the moment on love poems? Well, love poems, I think especially now is a time when we've all been re-examining our connections with other people and love becomes a much wider thing in a lot of ways. So what I was looking for was poems that are really life poems, they're poems about longing and living and desire and desperation and loss. And these poems are, you know, not scared to talk about the car crash relationships and the scaffolding of love because in against impossible odds lovers and all people they try to lose their boundaries in each other and poets try to do the same with words so there's one poem uh there's

just a tiny one an anonymous classical poem tamil poem from almost 2,000 years ago. What could my mother be to yours? What kin is my father to yours anyway? And how did you and I meet ever? But in love, our hearts have mingled like red earth and pouring rain. Now, that feels like the start of a huge conversation that goes on, as you said, across time and time zones. Because poems of love are also love poems to the whole world. I love the idea of red earth in that way. It's really gorgeous. And there is just something also to be said, which my eye was immediately drawn to. Again, you may say more about me than anything else. But there's one by Kim Moore called In Praise of Arguing, which... I would love to read that to you.

I would love you to read it, if you'd be so kind, please. Yes. I have to say very often it's the women who see a more ironic, see the absurdity of it. In Praise of Arguing by Kim Moore. And the vacuum cleaner flew down the stairs like a song and the hiking boots launched themselves along the landing and one half of the house hated the other half and the blinds wound themselves around each other and the doors flung themselves into the street and flounced away and the washing gathered in corners and

sulked and the bed collapsed and was held up by books and the walls developed scars and it was a glorious, glorious year. It's a good one. It's a really good one. I like this one half of the house hated the other, but I suppose it's that passion within love and the discord that also should be reflected. I don't think a lot of people necessarily think to do that on Valentine's. Yes, that's right. I mean, but it's far more than satin hearts. You know, there's huge things to talk about. There's one, I mean, Yue Fan Talk talks about, there is a kind of love called maintenance which stores the WD-40 and knows when to use it. Having just done that to, or my husband rather doing that

to the key in the door, the lock, I really appreciate that particular reference this morning. There's a beautiful message that's just come in. Derek, he says, here's a poem I recently wrote for my wife on our 50th wedding anniversary called Sunset. And it says, we are in the sunset of our lives, my love, and not that far to go. We've travelled many a mile, my love, and much that we can show. So now we can look back, my love, reflect upon the years, not with sadness or regret, but joy amid the tears. So the concept of a journey. Thank you very much for that, Derek.

Very nice to receive this morning. Very lovely. I think it's also what people have tried, or you've certainly seen within what you've been looking across. Yes, because the best poems do travel across the world. I mean, they speak to each other. And you find that some of the best ones also are, whether the love is sacred or earthy, the best ones find a way to make it an experience where you taste it and where the textures and the scents and the colours zing out. It has to be as immediate as that sizzle of rain on red earth,

on the hot earth. And I should say, and you alluded to it at the beginning, but of course, especially after a global pandemic, there would be at any other time, but more in mine perhaps, loss, you know, the love that isn't with you anymore, directly with you, but still in your heart. That is a great theme also coming through on our messages this morning. And I know that you acknowledge that in this collection.

Yes, well, people have always written into the knowledge that everything can change. And it's even in the face of this that we still promise to love forever. It's an act of foolhardiness or defiance. But we speak of love that will never die, even if the lover or the poet does and it's under that shadow that some of the greatest love poems become the most beautiful elegies yes well the the messages that have also come in have asked for some help and i don't know if you've got any but maybe a tip or two of of how to do this how to broach it and and not feel perhaps you can't contribute something. I think I can really only say again that try to avoid the abstractions, try to make it,

make the use right from inside your body. Try to feel the moment with taste, with every sense that you have and write from that. Because to anyone who's ever loved, the experience feels it's only ever happened to them. But the right words turn it into a language that the whole world understands. And the best love poems reach beyond two people to something more generous, something bigger, a space that's bigger than two. So don't be afraid also of being specific in some of those details, because that could actually help others feel like they understand it. It's the specific that makes the poem come alive. You are reading some poetry today. Are you reading it to someone or are you doing it

as a performance? Tell us, are you serenading? No, well, it's a lovely thing. St Pancras has opened the space to us under the clock. You're talking about King's Cross in London here? St Pancras Station. And they've let us have the space, my daughter and I will be reading from the Folio Love Poems, in this lovely station. And in a way, it's like a great gift to be able to share the love poems in a public space to anyone who's just passing by. Because I think I've always wanted to take poetry back to public spaces, to the communal spaces where people live and congregate. And that's a kind of a sharing that I think we could do with, especially now. Well, at train stations, it can be a very dramatic parting or reunion with loved ones,

can't it? And just to go back, while we have you, to something you said just before you read aloud the poem about arguing. What were you saying about women and their observations and perhaps how they come to poetry? I recognise there will, of course, be generalisations in this, but what did you want to say? Well, yes, it's not. I mean, there are men who are doing it, too. There's Seamus Heaney talking about the scaffolding of love. But I think women, especially some of the women I've got here, there's one called Bitch and there's one called Bitcherel. And women tend to see the absurdity, I was saying, of love. You know, there's that, it's not a one-sided kind of a thing

and there's no putting on pedestals. They do see the irony and the absurdity of it. Like, for example, Dorothy Parker, Unfortunate Coincidence. By the time you swear your head's shivering and sighing and he vows his passion is infinite undying, lady, make a note of this, one of you is lying. What a note to end on, a bit of Dorothy Parker. Thank you so much.

Good luck for your reading today with your daughter. I hope people feel something and are moved by the carefully chosen selection you've put together. It's lovely to talk to you. If I may wish you happy Valentines. Thank you. There you go. Imtiaz Darkor there talking about her collection that

she's put together of recent and ancient poems. It's called Love Poems for the Folio Society and talking about the very young love as well here. She's put together of recent and ancient poems. It's called Love Poems for the Folio Society. And talking about the very young love as well here. This came in, I made a colourful Valentine card for my first grandchild born just before Christmas with this poem. You're such a gorgeous baby. And when you're a young man, I'm sure you'll get some Valentines that won't be from your gran. So with instructions to give it to him when he's older.

Happy 14th to everyone with a kiss at the end of that. And many, many more to which I will return shortly. But I did mention, and you've been hearing it in the news bulletins, that today the controversial decision has been made that the 15-year-old Russian figure skater Kamila Vileva can compete again at the Winter Olympics despite her failing a drugs test. The Court of Arbitration for Sport has said that preventing the 15-year-old from competing

would have caused her irreparable harm. She's already made a name for herself in the world of professional ice skating, being the 2022 Russian national champion and set nine world records during her career. But what could be the ramifications for a young woman being allowed to compete in a global competition after failing a drug test? Laura Scott is a BBC Senior News sports reporter, joins me now. Good morning. Hi Emma. We've got this decision then. Why is this decision so significant?

Well, this whole doping controversy has really overshadowed these games here in Beijing. It's both troubling because it involves Russia and doping when Russia is still serving a ban for a state-sponsored doping program but it's particularly troubling and perhaps unique because it involves a 15 year old athlete and that has caused concern around the world about how a banned substance ended up in the system of Camila Valiere and has resulted in this scandal, which, I mean, we have had this result today from the Court of Arbitration for Sport, but the controversy is by no means over. And I think also it's particularly, it's such a big issue because she made Olympic history only last week. She's already won a gold medal here at these Games

and she's seen by many as perhaps one of the greatest figure skaters of all time, even though she's only at the very start of her career. So she's right in the spotlight. She is only a child, but it is a really troubling controversy. Because, of course, being given a second chance because she's a minor, many may feel that that undermines the message of a drug free sport and clean games. Yeah, we've had that kind of reaction already today from the likes of the World Anti-Doping Agency, the US Olympic and

Paralympic Committee, the global athlete body, all saying that they feel that this is a disappointing decision because of the message that it sends. You know, if you take the World Anti-Doping Agency's response, for example, they say that what the Court of Arbitration for Sport has said, which is that because the liaise is so young, that is an exceptional circumstance and that to suspend her would cause her irreparable harm. They say, well, that's applying an exception that doesn't exist within their rules. And then you've got the US Olympic and Paralympic Committee saying that, you know, it means that athletes who want to compete on a level playing field are being denied that right. They've said that this appears to be another chapter in the systemic and pervasive

disregard for clean sport by Russia. So yes, you know, there are a lot of people who feel very sorry for Kamila Velieva, because many people think that she might not be responsible for this positive drugs test. But the message that many people feel has been sent by the fact she's been cleared to compete is one that means that this whole situation is by no means over just because they've said she can continue here in Beijing. What will it mean, the next stage or the next part of this? Well, she'll be allowed to compete tomorrow in the women's singles event

and she is the favourite for gold by virtue of the fact that she's had a stunning career so far, a very short international career, but a stunning one at that. You know, she is the European champion. As you mentioned, she's broken a number of world records. But interestingly, the International Olympic Committee in the last half an hour or so has ruled that if she were to finish in the first three in this event, which many people think she will, they will not hold a medal ceremony or a flower ceremony in this because they don't think that is right when she is currently potentially going to be charged with an

anti-doping rule violation by virtue of the fact that she has failed a drugs test so the fact that they have already cancelled this ceremony if she were to get that far shows how significant that is that's not not something that the International Olympic Committee will have wanted to do, but it just shows you the significance of this and the implications and ramifications of it. So it's going to be quite an odd thing all in, really, with the competition and then, as you say, no medal ceremony. Absolutely. I mean, she's practised today

and you couldn't squeeze another camera into the side of the practice rink. That is how many people are watching her every move here. And that will only multiply tomorrow when she gets onto the main rink here in Beijing. And you have to think, I mean, it's incredibly difficult for a 15-year-old how on earth she can put all of this to one side and try and skate at her best tomorrow. And yet the irony is to win gold well i was just gonna say the irony is you know this decision's been taken because there is a there's a thought that it would cause her harm if she didn't compete but competing sounds like it's going to be extraordinary exactly and if she were to win the gold i mean

it's it's fascinating this situation because a week ago everyone was celebrating the fact that she'd made olympic history by being the first woman to ever land a quadruple jump at the olympics so she was being lauded as this child prodigy and now she is at the center of this global doping scandal and if she wins the gold she can't be awarded the gold and there'll be you know for many people there'll be an asterisk next to it for the the other athletes competing, I mean, there is this almighty distraction going on. And it just ends up being a very problematic, uncomfortable situation, which has left a very sour taste for many people and overshadowed these games, despite all the amazing sport that's been going on.

For many people, these games will be remembered for this. Laura Scott, thank you very much for for taking us into the heart of the story about the woman that everyone or the young the young woman i should say if i can put it like that that the world is focusing its attention on for very different reasons this week compared to last laura scott bbc senior news sports news reporter there with the latest we'll keep you up to date on that but last week you will have heard about the prime minister trying to roll back coronavirus legislation in England a month early, legislation that, for instance, includes the requirement to isolate after testing positive, but also included in that swathe of new

rules, which is that women were able, you'll remember this, I'm sure, to access early at home medical abortions after a telephone or online consultation with a nurse, midwife or doctor without going to the clinic during the pandemic or certainly during lockdowns and risking catching COVID. These were changes doctors in obstetrics and gynaecologists were actually asking for before the pandemic. Some of them were and now there is concern about them potentially these changes being rolled back. Claire Murphy joins me now from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service. Claire, good morning. Good morning, Emma. What is the latest just on whether this is going to change or not? Do we know? Well, there's just been a real lack of clarity. So one minute,

there's a briefing to media that this is going to continue. And then the next ministers are standing up in the House saying it's all very difficult. And it's frankly quite difficult to see what is difficult about this. I mean, the service at the moment is absolutely reliant on being able to provide this really safe and effective care to women at home when they are clinically eligible for it. It's a really good service for for many many women um and you know as i say that the service at the moment is absolutely reliant on it if it is if it is taken away you know we know that waiting times for treatment will increase significantly we will see more women needing later surgical abortions at a time when the service the nhs funded service is least able

to to cope with it so so we really need clarity on this. Clarity is the demand on whichever side you stand on this, I suppose, because this is part of those rules and certainly wasn't the headline news, which is why we wanted to drill down into it. But are you saying that you want this to continue forevermore or are you saying you'd like these rules to be extended, certainly while the NHS is grappling with still the pandemic? So I think there's two issues here. I mean, there's the immediate issue of practice. We need this to be rolled over. And then there is

absolutely a level of principle. I mean, as you say, doctors and midwives had long been urging this even before the pandemic. Some doctors and midwives. Because we know there are significant numbers of women for whom access to a clinic is really difficult. These are often women in very complex circumstances for whom travelling to a clinic, sometimes women in coercive relationships, for example, where taking a day, you know, being able to disappear for a day is very difficult. And so we know that these are women who historically actually had turned to illegal online methods. We know requests to those kind of providers have actually dried up now that these women are being able to be seen in a safe and regulated service.

Those women are now reaching out to us. But they're not. If I may, if, you said major triumph for women's health. I was just going to say, but you say they're being seen within a safe medical setting. You know, even if you are on your side of things, as you would describe pro-choice on this, you may still have concerns about this being on the telephone or online because you aren't actually being seen. What do you say to those listeners who have those concerns? So I think the point here really is one about being, our practitioners being able to make a decision about what is best in consultation with that woman

for her in the circumstances that she is in. And the problem is at the moment is when this is removed, it is removed for everyone. Now at the moment, when this is removed it is removed for everyone now at the moment you know lots of women will be seen in clinic for all sorts of reasons they may have you know clinical reasons why why they need to be why they need to be seen in person there may be safeguarding concerns which mean we want to see them in person but at the moment we are able to exercise our judgment as healthcare professionals as to what is best for that individual woman. This is a really evidence-based service, you know, and the evidence that has been gathered about the safety and efficacy of this service has actually been used around the world.

You know, it underpinned the FDA's decision recently to enable women to undergo telemedicine, to have telemedical abortion at home. You know, this is a world leading evidence based service and to remove it would be an absolute denial of evidence based medicine, you know, and I think one of the points is, is that absolutely, you know, you talked about my side, the pro-choice side, you know, we are a pro-choice country, you know, we do believe in women's access to abortion. But it's fair enough that we can have that debate about should abortion be lawful? But the point is, is that when abortion is lawful, women should have the right to be able to access the service in the way that is best for them. So, yes, this isn't this is this isn't that debate. Your point is because abortion is the evidence is legal.

And we are in this position to talk about how it's accessed. When you say we're a pro-choice country, you're talking about the opinion polls consistently showing where people are on this. Is that what you mean by that? That's right, yes. The vast majority of us support women's right to abortion. Can I just come to a question that has raised itself certainly across the pond in the US about those who are concerned about vulnerable women who may be coerced into an abortion by their partner that may be a part of the concern abortion at home, leaving them unsupported.

What would you say to that? I think what's really interesting about this service actually is that for some women actually being able to have that conversation at home in the privacy of their own home has actually sometimes made it easier for them to divulge concerns that they have about their own safety and well-being you know we we we always ask women about whether they are safe and our and our nursing uh our nurses and midwives are well versed in in recognizing uh signs manifestations that a woman may be being coerced.

And what I would say absolutely is that if we have any concerns at all, we will do everything in our power to make sure that woman is seen on her own in a clinic. So you wouldn't say that that is a problem you're seeing or certainly is being seen by healthcare professionals at the moment? So I would say what this service enables us to do is to treat women in accordance with their individual needs. And actually for women who are in complex circumstances, women who may be living with a coercive partner, for whom accessing a clinic, travelling to a clinic, can be a real problem that may jeopardise her safety and wellbeing,

then this enables us to see that woman at home. And, you know, the other point I would make is that we think about, you know, the abortion as being the issue that's, you know, the coercive aspect. You know, what we know about pregnancy is that pregnancy is often used to tie a woman to a coercive partner. And what actually this service enables women to do is have greater access to services which actually may enable them to end a pregnancy to escape from an abusive partner and it's also why you know this service this framework is supported by pretty much all of the end violence against women charities and organizations this is a service

that has support from you know all the support from, you know, all the relevant medical colleges, you know, all the organisations that advocate for women. And I think we need to listen to their voices. And yes, I mean, I'm just minded to mention a message has come in from Maggie saying the concern is that abortion by pill is going to be permanent. That would be detrimental to women who deserve better treatment than this. And other messages to say, well, this was only ever meant to be a temporary measure. What would you say to that? So the government committed to a consultation on this issue. And, you know, they have all the evidence on their desk to show that this is safe and this is effective. And, you know, as I say, this isn't a service that is necessarily suitable for all women. but when it's gone

it's gone and with it the ability of our nurses our doctors and midwives to make a decision about what is best for that individual woman in the circumstances she is in that's gone as well you do not protect or safeguard women by forcing them into clinics when it is not safe or effective for them for them to be there you don't protect women by taking their choices away. And that's what effectively the removal of this service would mean for them. Just a final question. If you've had a miscarriage and you would like to, or you're in a position where you think the tablet may be the right choice for you

to ensure that you can get through that process, did those rules change? Did that also move to telemedicine during the pandemic? So miscarriage doesn't fall under the Abortion Act. So miscarriage services can be provided absolutely in accordance with what clinicians think is best for that woman at the time. You know, unfortunately, abortion in this country is subject to a whole different raft of rules and regulations, which is why we need the permission of the health secretary in order to provide the service but yes but women have been able for a long time to use the medications for miscarriage at home that has never fallen under the criminal

law but now you know when this service is taken away a woman using misoprostol for a missed miscarriage at home will not face any criminal sanctions she's you know that's in accordance with with best clinical practice once this service is taken away a woman who uses misoprostol for an early abortion the same drug yes the same drug could go to prison for life under the offences against the person act of 1861 that's how serious this is and a decision do you know when a decision is due by on this, Claire? Well, you know, it'd be lovely to have a minister perhaps on your programme to come and talk about exactly that. We always ask, we will continue to do so. We'll see what we can get to. Claire Murphy from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service. Thank you. Well, moving from the politics

of this country to another, a record number of women are standing in the French presidential elections this April across the breadth of the political landscape. On the right, Valérie Pécresse. On the far right, Marine Le Pen. The left, Anne Hidalgo, the present mayor of Paris. And the former justice minister, Christiane Touboureau, who will be the first black female president should she win. All are hoping to unseat the incumbent Emmanuel Macron. It is the first election since the global MeToo movement and commentators are considering whether this could have an impact on the outcome of the election. I'm joined now by Catherine Nicholson, who's based in Paris and European Affairs Editor for the TV station France 24, and Agnes Poirier, the UK Editor of L'Express. Catherine, if I come

to you first, a field of candidates, female candidates here, who do you think is the most likely, who's causing the most waves at the moment? Yes, we've got a lot of female candidates here. And as you say, we've got two of them jostling for second place at the moment. So Marine Le Pen, who I'm sure a lot of your listeners will have heard of. She was in second place last time around, of course. And then and she's from the far right. And Valérie Pécresse, who's the sort of centre-right candidate, she describes herself as being one-third Thatcher, two-thirds Merkel. So you can understand how she positions herself. And those two, it's pretty unclear at the moment, which one of them is

second place. They're sort of neck and neck, more or less. But there have been polls that have put both of them into the second round in France. So because there's such a big field of candidates, there's always a first round. Emmanuel Macron currently polling around 24, 25% on that. And then he and the second place candidate, we expect either Pécresse or Le Pen at this point, would go into a second round. Agnes, are either of these women inspiring the women of France and the men for that case? Well, I mean, it's interesting.

We are obsessed with polls in France, so we carry them on a daily basis, especially before presidential elections. And there have been a very interesting poll carried out by IFOP, the polling institute, about what French women voters want and whether they have a different attitude towards certain ideas than men. And it looks as if it's going to be a tough nut to crack for them, myself included, because they tend to be more socially and culturally liberal than men. Let me give you examples on animal rights, on green issues, on assisted dying, on, of course, you know, gay rights, minority rights in general. But on the other hand, they also tend to be more conservative than men,

and slightly more on subjects such as security, justice, even immigration. So it looks as if nobody fits the bill for them, if you like. They might be tempted by Pécresse, that is to say the right-wing candidate, ideas about security, for instance, but then they will really disapprove of her stance on social or cultural issues because they will think she's far more too conservative for them. So perhaps that's the reason that President Macron, who in a way is on the centre, therefore is both a feminist,

but takes his ideas from the centre-left and from the centre-right, seem to be pulling best for French women voters. That's interesting. A really interesting analysis to see how that differs and why perhaps he is coming through still. Catherine, I did mention around the Me Too movement and the impact potentially on this election and I suppose the culture in France. And Percresse challenged a television anchor live. Tell us about this. Yes, she was speaking to this very well-known journalist and she said that she almost didn't go on his programme because of sexual harassment allegations against him.

So, yeah, this was quite a big and bold moment by Valérie Pécresse. There has been a lot more scrutiny, as you say, on issues of sexual harassment, sexual assault, all the way through to femicide, so women being killed by their partner or ex-partner in recent times. And even so, it did sort of stand out to have a prominent candidate in the election like Valérie Pécresse challenge somebody so prominent in the public eye, really well loved, well respected by many people on this sort of issue. I wouldn't, however, say that this marks Valérie Pécresse out as being particularly a champion of women's rights and women's issues in general um you know she had a big rally in Paris yesterday to reboost her campaign seen overall as a little bit of a flop and very much as being towards the right wing of politics she was talking a lot about identitarian issues um you know the one of the biggest things

she said about women's rights was that she's against women wearing the Muslim uh head coverings and the veil and her team ofers that she announced for her campaign, it's an absolute saucisse party, I think we can say. It's 12 men and zero women backing her up. So I don't know that we could really say that Valérie Pécresse is somebody who's pushing for the advancement of women's rights with her campaign at this point. No, I mean, also at that rally, she cited her heroes as Britain's Margaret Thatcher, Germany's Angela Merkel,

women who always defended their people. But on a recent trip to Greek migrant camps, she also said she wasn't against barbed wire to keep migrants out of Europe. And so it continues. On that point, Agnes, I mean, is there a particular woman, not necessarily can appeal to women per se, but who can actually take it from Macron? Do you think it can happen this time with so many women?

No, but it's the same with men. You know, I don't think there are, if you look at the polls, it looks quite sure, although a lot of things can happen, of course, because it's taking place in two months' time. But as it stands today, no man and no woman can challenge President Macron. And his re-election seems to be not perhaps certain, but probable. If you look at the second round, really, that's the only issue here, because there are so many candidates running in the first round. So we'll have to leave Anne Hidalgo, the mayor of Paris, and Christiane Taubira aside, because for the moment their polling numbers is just a few percent. Macron will be challenged if it's validérie Pécresse he's facing in the second round.

It's much easier in a way if he's facing Marine Le Pen or Éric Zemmour, the two far-right candidates, simply because France will be very reluctant to vote for them. But Valérie Pécresse being not on the far right, but sort of, you know, on the right wing, it will be, I mean, it will still win, according to polls, around 54% against 46% to Valérie Pécresse. So it will be tighter, but for the moment, nobody challenges, and it's not a for the moment, nobody challenges.

And it's not a question of gender. President Macron. Thank you very much for the analysis. Quite far out, I understand. And we'll see how that potentially changes or not. Catherine, Nicholas and Agnes Poirier, thank you to you both. And thank you for all of these messages today about love. Alexandra says, you're on my mind today. Although a thousand miles away, these poems, only you can put my heart at ease and stop this fretting. Tell me please, did I leave the oven on?

Very important question. And another one here, I have MS and I've been in a wheelchair for many years now. My beloved partner, Jan, has been working from home through the pandemic and been my stalwart. We have a lot of laughter, even when it's grim. Here's my poem to him. My beloved man works upstairs. He have been my stalwart. We have a lot of laughter, even when it's grim. Here's my poem to him. My beloved man works upstairs.

He cares for my every need. 50 years of love and smiles, even when I've peed. Thank you, says Sally in Sheffield. Thank you to you, Sally, and thanks to Jan as well. Now, you may have been online searching for long-lost members of your family during this time, especially with more time at home, trying to build that family tree. But now there's a chance to search for pictures of relatives too.

The National Portrait Gallery has teamed up with the website Ancestry to upload thousands of portraits of well-known and ordinary people it has in its collection. But the gallery has also announced a competition, giving the public the chance to submit their own family photos to be selected and displayed. I spoke to Dr Alison Smith, chief curator of the National Portrait Gallery, and I started by asking her how many pictures they had uploaded to Ancestry. So we've uploaded 125,000 digital photographs onto the Ancestry website. A lot of those will include women from all walks of life. So many familiar faces, such as Jane Austen,

Mary Stokes, but also less familiar figures as well and it's a variety of media so paintings, sculpture, photographs, prints. This relates to a project we're launching with Ancestry called the Nations Family Album. So the inclusion of these images on the website is an invitation to people to start researching family history through portraiture. So on the website is an invitation to people to start researching family history through portraiture. So on the Ancestry website, when the images come up from the MPG, you can type in your family name, press exact, so it's precise, and then links might come up. I did it myself yesterday. I put my mother's maiden name, which is Fee. Nothing came up. But lots of names will come up. I've been at the National Portrait Gallery for years now.

I'm constantly being approached by people who say, oh, my ancestors on the walls in your gallery or in your collection. Only last year, someone approached me and said, I'm a direct descendant of Oliver Cromwell. So it happens all the time. But there are bound to be some surprising connections to be made. That's an extraordinary number of images, and albeit including sculpture as well, that you've uploaded on your side of things from the gallery. I didn't know the gallery would have so many. Is that all your collection or is this more that you've been given? No, the collection is vast. The National Portrait Gallery houses the largest collection of British portraits in the world, not just people who are British, born in Britain,

but people who made a contribution to British culture and society. So in our primary collection, we have about 12,000 works. But if you add in the reference collection, the photographs collection, the archive, it amounts to about 400,000 works. So we're only putting a fraction of it, you could say, on the Ancestry website. So there's lots to discover in the Gallery's collections, the photographs, the negatives, and the wonderful print collection. And this goes back into time. We're not just talking about the 19th, 20th century, but it goes back about 500 years recovering from this selection, back to the reign of Edward VI.

Wow, there you go. And in terms of people putting in their images, what are you hoping for from those sorts of portraits? Because of course, if you think about women and going back with if women were recorded as much as men, I wonder what you have to say about that. That's interesting. So before we close, you know, we close for refurbishment. Around 23 percent of the portraits on display were portraits of women. And we've made a commitment to increase that, to decrease the gender disparity across the collection. And we're aiming for 40, 60. Well, I'm in post, I hope it'll be 50, 50,

but obviously there's a long way to go. But we are really making some positive steps forward to try and make the collection more inclusive. That's really the aim. So you will see on the website, a lot of those images will be of women, not just people who were celebrities, Elizabeth I, Princess Diana,

but other women whose histories have been overlooked through time. So, for example, there's a wonderful woman called Lydia Benoli, who was the first mayor of Bethnal Green. There's a wonderful photograph of her in her civic regalia. Another photograph of a woman sitting, playing a sitar. Now, she is Noor Inyat Khan, who was a special operations officer and secret agent in the Second World War. She was the first female radio operator to be flown undercover into Paris.

She was captured and tortured by the Gestapo, but revealed nothing. Apparently, when she was executed, her last word was liberty. So there's some fascinating stories surrounding some of these figures who we don't know much about. Two other women who on the Ancestry website, Mary Chisholm, Elsie Knocker, who were dispatch riders. They had a great enthusiasm in the early years of the 20th century for motorcycling.

So they joined up and this Flying Ambulance Corps and they would treat soldiers on the front line before dispatching them to the field hospitals. They were awarded for their bravery, given medals. But again, it's been written out of history. So people might find these surprise connections when they start exploring these images online. But if they don't, it doesn't matter because the invitation is to explore their own family portraits. And there's photographs in the attics. Yes. So what are you looking for from members of the public? Who can submit what? Because some people, of course, have paintings in their house or pictures where they don't actually know who's in the picture and they don't know very much about

it. Can they still submit it or do you have to have all the information? I think it's open, actually. I mean, I'll be one of the selectors with Simon Pearce, who's the ancestry expert on family history. I think we're asking questions. Ancestry want questions, asking people to think about belonging, connection, legacy, identity. So if I think these issues apply to the work, then of course they can submit. But I think the idea is it can be anything. It could be a sculpture, it could be an engraving, it can be a photograph, it can go back into deep time, it could be something nearer the present day. I think what we're looking for is portraits that connect with social history, cultural history, times of national crisis, historical moments, fashion, dress, how people interacted.

It's all these things to make up a very varied, diverse family portrait of the nation. Do we have a service of, if you don't know who's in a picture or if you don't know, I'm just asking more generally here or in a painting, of people who can help you figure it out, a sort of antiques roadshow for figuring out? The National Portrait Gallery used to provide that service. Obviously, the source became an issue, so we no longer do it.

But people do approach us saying, do you know who this is? It's quite difficult. Sometimes there are clues or people you can approach and find that information. But our archive and library has this incredible collection of files. It's a photo library and people, researchers often go there and consult it and find the information they need. And just coming to that competition, I did say to our listeners that they would have potentially the opportunity to be or certainly have their family on the walls of the National Portrait Gallery.

You are closed at the moment. How's that going to work? So people just need to submit images digitally after they've found something interesting in their attic or their drawers, whatever. They can set up to three. The closing date is the 30th of June, just before midnight. And then we look at them, review them, select some. And the stories, often it's the stories that accompany the images which will be of real interest. And then we will create a digital exhibition to show on the website. And then when we reopen as well,

hopefully we'll be able to display these in the gallery. From the National Portrait Gallery there. And this from Sally on Valentine's Day. To the women of Afghanistan and the families in Ukraine know that love is being sent to you during your time of pain. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.