Woman's Hour - Independent Inquiry into child sexual abuse, writer Katriona O'Sullivan, electric cars, fertility laws in France

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

After more than seven years taking evidence, six months ago the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse published their final report which put forward 20 recommendations for the government. This week the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, announced they had accepted 19 of those put forward. Professor Alexis Jay, who chaired the IICSA for seven years, joins Nuala to explain why she is deeply disappointed with their response.Dr. Katriona O’Sullivan grew up as one of five children living in dire poverty, surrounded by addiction. She is now an award winning lecturer, whose work explores barrier to education. She joins Nuala to discuss herlife story, as told in her moving, funny, brave and shocking memoir – Poor.Sales of new petrol and diesel cars in the UK will end by 2030, but women are less likely than men to consider buying an electric vehicle, and the gap seems to be widening. Erin Baker, Editorial Director from AutoTrader and Beth Morley, a mobility and human insights manager from Cenex, join Nuala to discuss. This month marks ten years since a law authorising same-sex couples to marry and adopt children was passed in France. But it wasn’t until 2021 that single women and lesbian couples were allowed to get fertility treatment following two years of parliamentary debate. A new French film - La Graine or The Seed - looks at the journey of a lesbian couple, Ines and Lucie, on their quest to have a baby, set before the law came into force in France To discuss the current situation I’m joined by the director Eloïse Lang, & journalist for France24, Claire Paccalin.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lucinda Montefiore Studio manager: Sue Maillot

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. In a moment, Professor Alexis Jay, who chaired the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse for seven years, will talk us through why they are deeply disappointed with the government's response to their recommendations. We'll go through them. Also today, we're going to talk about electric cars. Now, don't turn off, as apparently many women do when cars are mentioned. Stay with me. Women are 30% less likely to invest in an electric car. And I want to know, does that apply to you? And if it does, what is standing in the way?

You can text the programme. That number is 84844. You can email us through our website or on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour or indeed a WhatsApp message or voice note. That number is 03700100444. Now, the car industry is a place

where we see a definite gender divide, including in buying electric vehicles. So what's behind it? Women are considered to be more likely to pursue environmentally friendly behaviours than their male counterparts. So what is going on? We're going to discuss all that.

Also, Dr. Katrina O'Sullivan will be with us. Katrina has written Poor. It's about her life and survival, growing up with parents who were addicts and in a life of poverty. Katrina has found a way through, that is, despite the obstacles and the setbacks.

And her story, I found it heroic and also uplifting, and I'm really looking forward to speaking to her. And we also have La Grene, The Seed, a very funny French film. It also illustrates a serious issue. What lesbian couples were going through in France when trying for a child

before a law changed to allow it in their country in 2021. That was the law changed to allow same-sex couples and also single women to access fertility treatment. So it's all coming up in the next hour. 84844. Are people getting in touch already on electric vehicles? Let me see. I think it is because some like me don't earn enough. It's my husband who buys the cars and chooses the motor propulsion. He's reluctant to go electric because of the issues which I'm inclined to agree with.

But I'd love to go electric despite. That is Storm Abigail. Thanks for kicking us off, Storm. We'll get back into some more of your messages later. But let me turn to Professor Alexis Jay. There are nearly 13 million children in England and Wales and current estimates indicate that one in six girls and one in 20 boys experienced child sexual abuse before the age of 16. In March 2020, the Office for National Statistics estimated that 3.1 million adults

in England and Wales had experienced sexual abuse before the age of 16. The independent inquiry into child sexual abuse spent more than seven years taking evidence from 725 witnesses during 325 days of public hearings and also hearing from over 6,000 victims and survivors of child sexual abuse during the Truth Project that was examining four million pieces of evidence and producing 52 reports. And six months ago, they published their final report and that put forward 20 recommendations for the government. You might have heard this week the Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, saying they had accepted 19 of the proposals that were put forward. But this morning, I got to speak to Professor Alexis Jay, who chaired that inquiry for seven years,

and I asked her what her reaction was to the government's response to her inquiry's recommendations. It was one of deep disappointment. Why? Because it sounded as if there were significant numbers of 19, as you just mentioned, that were accepted. But when we looked in greater depth at the full statement, the words on the page did not reflect that level of acceptance of the specific recommendations we made. How so? Because in a number of instances, the recommendations were very specific

and drawn from the seven years of evidence taking that we did. And the responses were vague, unspecific, without a timeline and frequently did not address the issues that were contained in the recommendations. Well, let's talk about a specific instance then, for example.

They did say, for example, a mandatory reporting duty is set to be put in place. And that would be something you would support I imagine? Oh absolutely it was one of the three centrepiece recommendations of the final report. The final report I should say contained 20 recommendations however there were 87 previous recommendations we made in our individual investigation reports on specific settings or organisations and institutions. Now, this was one of the three most important that we saw,

and we absolutely welcome the commitment that was made to mandatory reporting. However, as with another of our centrepiece recommendations, redress, it was apparently accepted, but to be followed with a full public consultation and call for evidence in the case of mandatory reporting. And similarly on redress. Now, I do wonder what on earth the government thought we were doing for seven years when we carried out extensive research and evidence taking on both of those areas, which is fully written up in the final report. We have already done this work. There is no need for it to be repeated. This should proceed to implementation. And do you have any way of pushing back on that 12-week call for evidence, for example, apart from speaking out about it? Is there any

way you can sway the government to go with what you have already? The inquiry no longer exists, of course, because it ended on the 31st of March. So we have no powers and no scope necessarily other than drawing it to public attention, which is why I'm on your programme now and very pleased to be doing so. And right now on your programme, I call on the government to think again and to reconsider what they've said and to enact all of our recommendations in full without delay. What have survivors and victims told you so far? Because there's a couple of things here. One, that it took seven years,

and I do want to get into what was happening over those seven years. But that is a huge delay, I feel, for people to try and get some sort of response from the government to what happened, whether it's redress, for example. What are they telling you? Well, I could summarise it using their words from several sources of victims and survivors who have been campaigning for years and years on that, first of all, for the inquiry. However, the words they are using now since Monday, and these are direct quotes,

this is smoke and mirrors, they're gaslighting us, it's a big con and they're kicking the can down the road, for example. Okay, let me turn back to the seven years that this investigation took place or inquiry. What were you doing then? It's a formal public inquiry which requires to follow statute, of course, and that is entirely necessary and it has to follow a procedure. So once that is completed, we carried out a very great deal of work, not just in the 19 areas that constituted the public hearings, the investigation areas, but we also carried out a great deal more

parallel work. One of the most important of which was the Truth Project. It was established to offer the opportunity for victims and survivors to share their experiences of childhood sexual abuse in a confidential and safe environment. Now, over 6,200 people took up this opportunity to talk to us over the life of the inquiry. They provided us with unique insights into the impacts of their appalling experiences both at the time they occurred and throughout their lives. The impact it had on education, career, relationships, mental and physical health, to name some of these. And they also made suggestions for change, all of which were intended to reduce the chances of sexual abuse happening to children in the

future. So that was a complex parallel activity that's hugely important and has provided us with, as I've said, a unique amount of information about the dreadful experiences that victims and survivors had. They had very high hopes of the inquiry because of the reports that we produced throughout the inquiry, totaling 52, 19 of which were on specific settings and institutions and reflected the public hearings. But we did an immense amount of consultation and research on areas that were important and had not previously been looked into. So you will appreciate everything that we finally concluded represents an extensive body of knowledge, new intelligence, and detail on all of the recommendations that we have made.

In respect of redress and mandatory reporting, for example, we looked at what other jurisdictions who had implemented them had done. We took advice from a vast number of people from across the world. So we see no need for the government to initiate consultations on redress schemes when we had already carried out all that work. So with redress, it is to right past wrongs, if it's never possible, of course, to right those wrongs completely. But in some manner, perhaps it would be monetary compensation. Would that be fair?

Oh, of course, it should be. Redress should be about apology, acknowledgement of the responsibility for what happened, financial compensation and support. Redress should cover all of that. And we had done extensive consultations again with victims and survivors. And despite what might be the perception, the financial compensation was not always the most important part of it at all.

But there are many schemes. And I'd say even in the UK, of course, the Scottish one and the Northern Ireland one are both underway. All of this is described and evaluated in our final report. Because the headlines over the past day or so with Ms Braverman talked about this redress, but your issue is that there's a consultation about it? Yes that is part of it indeed in recommendation 19 the government accepted the need to introduce a redress scheme but the detail of it including eligibility type all of the stuff

I've just been describing to you the extent of the financial component will be considered following extensive engagement, including with victims and survivors, third sector organisations, local authorities, insurers and lawyers. That is what the government's response said. And what I've just been describing to you encompasses all of that. So you feel the work is already done.

I'm hearing a theme here. A couple of more issues. The one recommendation the inquiry made that the government rejected was the creation of a child protection agency. Why did you feel that was important? We were very clear that an agency with a single focus on child protection

was necessary to ensure that children identified as suffering abuse or at risk of significant harm would be better protected in the future. We did not consider there was sufficient exclusive focus on child protection in the various organisations which carry out some aspect of it. So there's no single organisation covering child protection. The government response, while it proposed some changes, rejected this approach to focus on publishing as an alternative updated guidance and a potential change in the role of the Child Safeguarding Practice Review Panel, which is in place,

but keeps the current system whereby child protection is spread between many different statutory and non-statutory bodies. And spreading child protection across so many different bodies tends to lead, we may say, to a silo mentality, not full and thorough multi-agency approaches where there's clear leadership on child protection itself. Child protection is a complex and difficult issue. It requires great skill in the assessment of individual children and it needs to be of a high standard. And we think it requires the focus of a specific organisation. Okay, that's your take on that particular one that was rejected. One more, you call for a cabinet minister for children,

but doesn't Gillian Keegan, the Secretary of State for Education, already have that responsibility? She does indeed. However, she is the Secretary of State for Education, which encompasses many aspects of child protection, of course. But yet again, we need a specific focus on children and a cabinet level minister for children.

We think this is hugely important. They do, sorry to interrupt you, but Professor, but they do say they've established a child protection ministerial group. Is that not enough? This is new. No, I don't think it's enough at all, nor did the many people that we consulted about it. We think the issue of the welfare of children and every aspect of their experience ought to be represented at cabinet level with a specific focus. What could be more important for the future? There are currently eight ministers of state who attend cabinet, in addition to the relevant secretary of state. And these cover very many different areas of work.

But the protection of children is very important and deserves the same focus as some of these areas. For example, veterans affairs, security and the Treasury. OK. Are children not as important as that? So that is your question that you are putting to the Treasury. OK. Are children not as important as that? So that is your question that you are putting to the government. You have worked in this area for decades, 30 years of social work.

People may also know that you led the independent inquiry into child sexual exploitation in Rotherham, for example. And then we've talked about the past seven years, the work you've been doing. How do you stay resilient

doing this type of work? Well, I've often been asked that question. And the most important thing is, like many others, I have had a high level of professional training and I have been engaged in hearing about the dreadful things that happen to people, children and adults, throughout my professional life. And naturally enough, some issues are really more affecting than others.

And of course, child sexual abuse is one of the absolutely worst things you can repeatedly hear about. The support of friends and family is very important. And talking through, much as we did in the inquiry you know what there was a panel and myself that held the public hearings and that was very important to listen to other perspectives and views but like every professional who's involved in these areas you're not immune you should never be immune to being affected by what you hear. In a public inquiry, it's most important to remain impartial and objective. That is Professor Alexis Jay, who chaired the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse.

I do also want to read you a little of what Home Secretary Swella Braverman said responding on behalf of the government. She said, thanks to the brave testimony of thousands of courageous victims, this inquiry uncovered a dark and disturbing truth that adults often turn a blind eye to the harrowing abuse these victims suffered. But it is important survivors have that suffering recognised and acknowledged. That is what the compensation scheme will deliver. By bringing in mandatory reporting for adults working with children, we are shining a light on a crime which has for too long been hidden and silent. Today, we are bringing this crime out of the shadows and saying no more. Perpetrators, you will have nowhere to hide.

But as you heard, Professor Alexis Jay, who doesn't agree with the consultations that are attached to many of the recommendations, will continue following it. Now, I have noticed while I was listening to Professor Alexis Jay that many of you have been getting in touch about cars, sales of new and petrol diesel cars in the UK. They're to be banned by 2030.

You probably know that. And new data shows that women are less likely than men to consider buying an electric vehicle or EV as you'll also hear called. That gender gap actually seems to be widening. So why is that?

I mean, I find this fascinating. You've given me loads of potential answers already. What about this one from Jude in Cornwall? She says, I find this fascinating. You've given me loads of potential answers already. What about this one from Jude in Cornwall? She says, women aren't buying electric cars because they're not reliable, trustworthy or developed enough yet.

It is a biological thing. It's about weighing up a good mate to breed with. I love that one, but there's tons of them coming in. Keep them coming. With me, I have Aaron Baker, Editorial Director of Online Automotive Marketplace. Let me get that out again.

Online Automotive Marketplace Auto Trader, which carried out the research, and Beth Morley, Mobility and Human Insight Manager at Cenex, which is the centre of excellence for low-carbon vehicle technology. Okay, let us get into this. Aaron, let me begin. I'll tell you what my listeners are telling me. But why do you think women aren't buying electric vehicles, when we see

that they are apparently much more likely to have environmentally friendly behaviour? Yes, exactly. Good morning. So, you know, the data doesn't sit comfortably with what we know about female consumers, which is they love sustainable products. But we've conducted at Autotrader a huge study of 4000 women and backed it up with some focus groups. And overwhelmingly, women are not engaging with the conversation around electric cars. Now, it's not because, I hate to contradict one of your listeners there, but it's not because electric cars aren't reliable, or they're still kind of this weird early tech. You know, electric cars, actually, the models like the Renault Zoe, the Nissan Leaf, they've been with us for over a decade now. We're well into used EVs now, as well as new. So, this technology is tried and tested. Batteries last for a very long time now. You know, they've got warranties for eight years. They're as reliable, if not more reliable than petrol and diesel cars because there are fewer moving parts. But women aren't interested in them. And I think that's got to come down to the lack of information in the right places for women, which leads to a lack of confidence, which means they're not buying. They're very worried about range. They're very worried about charging. But our data also shows when we speak to women who have bought

electric cars and have taken that leap and with a certain amount of faith, that actually they love their electric cars. 80% of women EV owners would buy an EV again for their next car. And actually very few of them have experienced any of the issues that they were worried about at the beginning. Okay well let's go through them because I think what you've mentioned there has been echoed. Here's the one side. This is Susan. I would never buy an electric car. I would buy a hybrid but I can't afford that either. Electrics, batteries etc can stop working suddenly. I don't want to risk being stranded or no charging point fear. Another. I would invest in an electric vehicle but I live in a terraced house, so we have no access to recharging facilities.

Perhaps more women who have the financial wherewithal to buy an electric vehicle live in such houses or in flats. Consequently, it may be that more women are disadvantaged by the lack of on-street charging. Here's another, Wendy Pink. That's a nice name. I'm female. I have an electric car. It's environmentally friendly and it's great to drive. Let me see, Amy. I am ready and eager to buy an electric vehicle. I'm just waiting for the price to come down and increase in the number of charge points and mileage capacity. So what about that, Erin? Three points that Amy brings up.

Yes. So the first cost that is the biggest barrier for men and women still for uptake. A new electric car is still on average 37% more expensive than its petrol or diesel counterpart. But there are two big caveats to that. One is that the running costs, once you have got the electric car, the running costs are so much lower than they are for petrol and diesel. You don't. Well, so, for example, my electric car, I charge it overnight on an off-peak tariff. It's costing me about about £11 to travel 300 miles. Now, that's going to cost you more than £11 at petrol station to travel 300 miles. You don't have a serving cost. You don't have congestion charge.

If you're a company car user, you've got very low benefit in kind. So there are all sorts of running cost benefits still. And the second point I'd make is the used EV market. Lots of women, lots of consumers in general, actually, aren't really aware that, obviously, there's a growing used EV market now as people come to the end of their first three-year finance deal. And actually used prices are really good at the moment because there's more supply than demand at the moment. Okay. So they keep coming in, 84844. Here's one,

and Beth, I want to bring you in because you're an expert in behavioural change. Let me see. Here is Suzanne. Haven't been left feeling very vulnerable when I've broken down in the evening. I'm unwilling to trust my safety to being able to find a charging station at all or find one that works. We don't have anywhere near enough of an electric charging network to make a purchase of an electric car viable. Let me see another one let me just get it here those ones are all which I will get to as well in a moment

actually let me start with that one because actually I think some of the other ones that are coming in they have got electric cars which I'll get to but what about trying

to change behaviour Beth we're hearing about that gender gap that is there and lots of the reasons that are set out and I think it's a question of cost which is one We're hearing about that gender gap that is there and lots of the reasons that are set out. And I think it's a question of cost, which is one, you know, the price may just have to come down.

But the other is of trust or reliability. Is there a way, which Erin is putting out that she believes they are, and some of my listeners are as well, and I'll read those comments in a moment. But how can, I suppose, cars like that become more attractive? What's missing in the marketing to women? Yeah, hello. And I think it's not necessarily just the marketing of EVs, really. I think it's the marketing of cars in general. But EVs actually have these potentially real benefits on things like reliability, maintenance, safety that are just the messages and not the things that marketing and comms in

the automotive industry are necessarily interested in focusing on. They're interested on when it comes to electric vehicles a lot of the time talking about the technology, they're sort of portraying them as these sort of future complicated things and that not only is not interesting to women a lot of women but but what we're hearing is that that's also a bit of a turn-off because it adds this fear of complication of it being difficult and of things like um you know running out of charge or not being able to charge you know what i wonder beth when I was looking at this? Because women are amazing at technology and really into it and using it all the time and planning. We know all that, organisationally using it so much.

Is it just that they have so much on that they just don't need one more thing that might possibly go squiffy? I think so. And I think so much of this you can start to scrape, you pick, look at it and you get into the kind of structural inequality that we have that is based around the sexes. So you were talking about housing, one of your callers. And, you know, there are more women in social housing and rented housing than the men. And up until recently, grants were not available for charge points at social housing. It's great to see that that now is a focus of the government.

So hopefully we will see more rental and social housing properties having charge points. But that's been a barrier for a lot of people, like not being able to put a charge point in at home. Things like a lot of the uptake

in EVs recently has been around corporate company cars. And when we look at the jobs distribution, it's generally more male-dominated industries and roles that tend to get company cars. Women tend to be more in public sector or public service, so they don't tend to have company cars, therefore less women are using. And I think your first caller said that their husband makes the choice. Yes. Oh, that's a whole other program, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So you start to go down into the thing and then you've got the fact of the lack of representation within the automotive

industry of women. And therefore that comes with failures in the marketing, failures in the design, which boils down to the question of women and girls in STEM subjects. So a lot of this, you know, there are… Which is science, technology, engineering and maths. I've got it. But a lot of this is, you know, there are factors around EVs that we need to address in terms of how we communicate the benefits but there's also a lot that just boils down to that continual battle. Okay let me go back to my

listeners because there is a lot here. Okay I don't want an electric car due to the longer term implications and wider ecological impacts. Short-sighted solutions versus long-term. Less cars on the road and other solutions all create better environments. So Carolyn there is talking about and somebody else got in touch as well saying they got a cargo bike instead, that they're going one step further. They are environmentally conscious

but electric vehicles aren't environmental enough for them. This was another one. I thought this was interesting for both of you. Of my immediate family, this is Pam, comprising of four females and four males. Three females have bought electric cars. None of the males have

done so. I've had mine for five years. For round trips of 150 miles or so, it's absolutely fine. Longer journeys take a bit more planning. Are women less able to plan than men? I don't think so. But importantly, electric vehicles are not the answer to climate change.

So similar again, just a tiny contribution to mitigation measures. What about that? How do you understand that, Beth? That the men aren't going electric, but the women are? Yeah, so one of the things,

if you look at actual travel data, and this relates to the environmental choices element as well women travel shorter more shorter journeys like more journeys overall and they're shorter so for electric vehicles would be great for women because that lower range is better but actually those journeys can also be taken by walking and bus and we know that women walk more and get public transport more. So it may be that a lot of women,

when they're making those environmentally friendly choices, are going, like you say, that one step further and making the choice to get the bus or to walk instead. Whereas we know that men do travel, you know, from travel data tend to travel in longer distance journeys, so therefore may have more concerns. I've also had conversations with men who complained to me that they'll miss the noise. Oh gosh that's so interesting. They'll miss the revving engine. I do have let me see but I did have somebody talking about the noise here saying the lack

of it is what they loved. Yes electric cars are relaxing to drive and the instant power acceleration makes me feel safer at junctions. So says Katie. She just collected her second electric car. She loves it. She was surprised to hear that many women aren't buying them. But let's talk about solutions. One thing that's come up again and again,

I think we can agree from our listeners, is the lack of charging points, Aaron, and also the cost. But I mean, is there, I mean, can they be sure that they'll be able to find a charging point that works in a well-lit area that feels safe in the coming, I don't know, year? Yeah, well, there's a big reality versus perception thing here. So yes, a lot of women before they buy EVs say, well, I'm not willing to look at EVs right now because there definitely aren't enough public charging points around and I don't have a home charger. We found that, you know,

the reality of EV ownership is that only kind of 17, 18% of women over the course of a year of their ownership cited that as an issue. I think, you know, undoubtedly we don't have enough public charging points at the moment, but they are rapidly growing. But when you look at the usage of electric cars, you know, they don't, most electric cars don't need charging by 80% every day. It's not that kind of barrier to uptake. On the subject of safety, I've been driving electric cars for six years now, and it's never got to the point where I think, oh my gosh, I've got five miles left and it's midnight. I'm going to have to pull up by a secluded charging point around the back of a petrol station and be worried about my safety. I think that's something that's kind of been talked

about a lot and is more perception. There is definitely a thing for women around because women tend to be the primary carers, whether that's caring for children or relatives or partners, they worry more about running out of charge with children on a motorway or running out of charge when they've got to get an LD relative to hospital, say. But again, if you speak to EV owners, women EV owners, you know, they've very rarely, if ever, come across that situation where they're that short of charge. So I think the more women we get test driving EVs, so they can see, oh, they're really nippy, they're very quiet, they're very smooth. The more we get buying them and then becoming very passionate advocates for that experience, which most women are, the more we get more women buying. It's a bit of a circular,

you know, scenario. And we know that women tend to get most of their car advice and decide which car to buy from friends and family more than men do. Men tend to look at publications and programs and so on. So the more women that buy EVs and tell their friends and family more than men do. Men tend to look at publications and programmes and so on. So the more women that buy EVs and tell their friends and family about it, the more women buy them. Okay, well let me, because I was reading a lot

that were bringing up their issues. Here's another few. Marianne in London. I love my electric car. I decided to forego foreign holidays for a bit. Best decision ever. It's the easiest car to drive ever and I have 275 mile range.

Used electric cars are a great option as well. Let me see. I have another one that just came in a moment ago. I bought an electric car in February. I would never return to a petrol one. She is a gorgeous ride, says Mary Hoffman. They have, they talk about as well, this is kind of interesting

and this is on a different aspect. Leslie, this is a shout out for us beyond the areas you defined. So far, no mention of location. Northern Scotland and the Isles, for example. 300 miles is nothing for a trip set. So no electric car suitable for long trips. I'm a woman and do make long journeys

despite your interviewer's opinion. Well, I think it's just one. This is taking a look at it in general, Leslie. No reliable public service options add to the mix, plus few charging points and the cost to buy. So, Leslie there,

pointing them out of the way. She does not like it. But I have to say, we're really getting a split opinion. Electric cars. My daughter bought one. She's an engineer. I have a hybrid.

I've considered changing the cost and the fuss of fitting a charger and the suspicion that not all they're cracked up to be has put me off. That's Ross. So many comments coming in, but I want to thank both of you

for getting in touch. I have to say, our listeners have a lot of thoughts on their car. Aaron Baker, Editorial Director of the online automotive marketplace Autotrader

and Bette Morley, Mobility and Human Insight Manager at Cenex, which is a centre of excellence for low carbon vehicle technology. I want to also know about who makes the decisions about buying the cars in your house.

That's an interesting one brought up by Jude at the very beginning of this segment, 84844. Thanks so much to both my guests. Now, I want to move on now to Katrina O'Sullivan. Just an amazing book. That's what I'm just going to put out

to start off this segment. Dr. Katrina O'Sullivan has had amazing professional success, a happy marriage, and she's a loving mother. But she also has an indelible legacy of her early years. She was the middle child of five kids growing up in dire poverty in Coventry and also in Birmingham. And there was really, I suppose, low odds, you could say, on Katrina

making something of her life. She became a mum at 15. She was also homeless. Rackety years, as they're called, followed until she moved to her father's native Dublin, where she hit rock bottom. Now today, Katrina is an award-winning lecturer. Her story explores barriers to education among so many other aspects. She teaches at Maynooth University's Department of Psychology and her book is called Poor. It is moving, uplifting, brave, heroic, I called it earlier and I think that's correct, shocking at times. But it just tells us about her life and how she turned it around. You're so welcome, Katrina.

Thank you so much for having me. It's a privilege to be here. It's one of my dreams to be on the show. Well, we are delighted to have you. I think I read your book nearly in one sitting. I found it so compelling. This little girl that is now you. You dedicate the book to yourself

age seven saying i've got you maybe for our listeners you could describe that little girl yeah so i was like all little girls i suppose if you if you can i was vivacious and full of energy and bright enthusiastic but unfortunately i was born into a home where both my parents were heroin addicts and so alongside the joyous little girl that I was was this terrified little thing who was just constantly looking around afraid of what was going to come next so when I dedicated the book to myself I was kind of because that child never goes I think we you know she's still in there and it's it's been a lifetime to to reach her and recover and and so when I dedicated to myself I was dedicating it to that part of me that the afraid part yes it was

lost and I think that afraid part we're thrown into it pretty quickly with you because your dad, who's Tony, who is a charismatic character, but by many accounts, you were just six when you had a traumatic experience of finding him after he'd overdosed. memories are actually of my parents putting needles into their arms so that was one of a number of different traumatic incidences but I suppose my book is about the complexities of addiction so while my dad was this drug addict he was always he was also this vivacious fun man who loved music and introduced me to books and reading and so I loved my dad irrespective of what he did and how he acted I loved him and this particular incident I remember going into the bedroom and our house was full of squalor so it was messy the bed was stained with blood and I remember walking in and and discovering my daddy's kind of grey bluey grey line in the bed and there's a needle hanging out of his groin and I thought he was dead and I don't remember my own voice to be honest but I must have been screaming because

we had a lodger at the time and he ran up the stairs and called the ambulance men and that was one of I suppose many traumatic incidences that I lived through as a young girl. Yeah I mean I from reading the book and it was a week ago I can still remember all those aspects that you describe in that room. And so harrowing for a little girl. And another image that really stayed with me, and I want to go to it because I think it'll kind of bring to our listeners what you were going through, was that you went to school, this kind of crazy, bad crazy life at home. But you were this curious girl at school and doing well. And you had teachers that helped you, but you were picked on by other kids, cold, smelly or dirty and things

like that, because, of course, you weren't being cared for. And there were teachers that came to help you understand how to keep yourself clean yeah so you know like many children who went through what I went through um I wet the bed every night and my parents we didn't we weren't taught how to wash we didn't have toothbrushes or towels in the house we often didn't have sheets on the bed so I was um going to school rolling out of bed running into school having not washed or changed my underwear. And obviously, unfortunately, the other kids didn't want to play with me, didn't want to sit next to me. You know, they called me horrible names and had knits and all this kind of thing.

And there was, when I started school, I was really privileged to have a wonderful nursery and reception teacher, Miss Arkinson,inson who never ever shamed me never ever made comment or noticed what i was going through but this particular day i remember um she took me into the bathroom her and another assistant um i was taken into the bathroom and i was convinced i'd done something wrong because that was always what i i was always in trouble so i thought i was in trouble and this lovely teacher i was in trouble. And this lovely teacher, I remember crouching down, looking me in the eye and saying, it's okay. And she, she pulled out a packet of underwear. She'd do a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday

knickers. And she taught me how to wash myself. And every morning I used to arrive before everybody else in school. And there was a little bag behind the desk, which had a lovely fresh towel and a lovely flannel and some soap and a fresh pair of underwear and it was so I mean I was really ashamed in that moment because I knew that they knew that I was this smelly girl because I was well aware of that but I also felt so seen and cared for and I I think sometimes it's something that we we lose in education is this this ability for teachers to take the moments and see the children. We're focused so much on how they can read, how they can write the maths that we can lose actually them little moments of care, which were so pivotal in changing my life. Having a person like that see me and care for me was transformative.

Yeah, the image in the book that you paint, I have to say, it did stay with me. You, your mother, your father, as you talked about, was charismatic. Your mother, it was a difficult relationship, I think, you know,

as we read about her as grownups, of course, we can be horrified that the lack of care that was there. And I believe you also felt it difficult to love your mother when that was there. And I believe you also felt it difficult to love your mother when she was alive. Both your parents did die young though. And how do you look at them now?

And I suppose the failings that they had, quite frankly, when it came to raising you. I have so much compassion and love for my parents. I think sometimes when people have mental health difficulties in the extreme that they have, we can just see that and society just sees that. I'm writing my book, but also living with my parents. There is so much more than somebody than just their addiction.

So my mum was this hippie woman, vivacious character. She loved to dance. She was strong-willed. I mean so strong-willed she would fight anybody and there was all these complex um there's so many complexities to her that I think through writing the book I've been able to actually resolve some of that and actually learn to love her in a different way but obviously as a little girl all you want is your mother to love you like literally all you want is to be loved and I wasn't loved and that's really

hard to live with do you think you weren't loved or just that she wasn't able to show it I think now I know I was loved but at the time I think love is security it's consistency it's food we didn't eat I didn't have food you know so and you're exposed to a world where, you know, women are held up to this standard of motherhood. So I remember quite early on looking at my next door neighbor and looking at her mother and she's making them soup every lunch and giving her a hug and patting on the head. And so we have this standard for women in terms of motherhood. And my mother definitely didn't live up to that. And so I think very, very innocently as as a child you just see your parent acting in a certain way and if they don't are not consistent and not caring then that means they don't love

you now I know I mean I had that conversation with my mother and I talk about it in the book calling her as an adult and saying to her did you ever love? And she was so open and so honest. And she said, oh my God, I loved you so much. I just love drugs more. And in that moment, while I knew that it was a real pivotal moment for me, because she was so honest. And so was I with her. But it's very, yeah, it's been a lovely journey, actually, to actually find my mom again. But like I said, like I say in the book, when she died died there was a freedom in her being gone and the freedom wasn't necessarily in the fact that she was dead it was the fact that she never ever recovered so she continued to inflict her addiction on us for a long time

what I will say though was when she did die what died with her was was hope like that seven-year-old girl always hoped that one day that her mom would love her and so when my mom did die it was really hard to let go of that and that's that's taken time to to restore and you've also talked about tilly was your mom's name uh that women can be judged far more harshly than men and maybe maybe even, you know, in all respects, also when both parents were addicts, for example. But I do want to turn, you had a little boy, I was a little boy then, John,

and had to leave your home. You were homeless, basically. But you have had this just incredible, transformative journey, and not without setbacks and stumbles. But you bumped into somebody who was doing an access course at Trinity College Dublin, so a preeminent university. You had two GCSEs at that point and, you know, were having, to all intents and purposes, a very difficult life. But something propelled you to think, I could do that. What was that, do you think?

I think it was really, in Ireland at the time, we were in the Celtic Tiger. And so when there's money in a country, it trickles down to the poor. And there was a lot of investment at that time in trying to offer services and systems that would facilitate poor people to move out of poverty so I was really lucky that occasionally when you grow up like I did sometimes you do realize that you're in a mess and you want help and I was lucky enough when I asked for help there was help in place so I got free counseling from a local community place I did some adult education but actually seeing a woman who was pretty much like me in a place like Trinity College was pivotal.

I remember meeting her on O'Connell Street. And at this moment, she says, I'm in Trinity. And honestly, I don't want to swear, but I did swear at her and said, no way, basically. What was the feeling? Was it jealousy or envy or was it shock or disbelief? Well, honestly, to me, people who went to places like Oxford and Cambridge and Trinity, they wore satchels, they'd gone into railing, and they didn't let people like us in there. Like anybody I knew at that time went into Trinity College to rob bikes. So for me to see someone like me studying law, and I think the one thing we forget when we're thinking about people

who've been in poverty, like we're really skilled people like I'm resilient I know how to fight for myself I know to advocate for myself I know how to lie if I need to so I know how to read a room and so at that moment STEM skills kicked in and I marched straight over to Trinity College that day knocked on the door of this woman and that was another pivotal moment is that this woman it was really open to people like me to actually just knock on the door and say this is me can you help me and that was this really middle-class lady who who I didn't know from Adam actually turned to me and was like aren't you amazing and again that was really life-changing as well that someone from Trinity College actually thought I me poor me was. So there was lots of transformative moments. And various people. And I think also at the time that it didn't even always cut through,

but it gave you a glimpse into what could be is what I was taking from the book that you, you know, eventually got back on the path you were supposed to be in. You do speak passionately about education and about some of the opportunities that you had or did not have and but you do feel that the poor shouldn't be limited to these expectations to working in trades how do you today encourage aspiration oh well i this is my job so i i suppose there's a few ways that i do it but obviously providing all of the opportunities to all children. The one thing that was communicated to me in education, the expectations were for me to finish school. That was the bar that was set for me.

I never met anybody in university or in a high status job. So in my work now, some of the things that we do is we introduce young girls like me just to all different universities different courses different jobs and it's not to denigrate or criticize if you want to be a cleaner or a hairdresser or anything else that's great I need my hair done everybody else does but the reality is if we have certain groups that are only you know socialized into certain jobs we're missing out on this this amazing skilled area of society and this is not charity and it's really important in my book that I talk about that like I'm actually contributing massively now to society not only am I changing policy in Ireland I'm working in a university

I'm actually my whole family's future has changed my children are on the path to university so empowering people in poverty is not like a charitable gig like we're really skilled we can change the world and we have different experiences and different ways of speaking and different creativities that we can add to society just if we're given the opportunity so but it's really important for me to say that poverty this is not a rags to riches story like poverty just doesn't you just don't leave poverty like I have to manage that every day in some ways like it's it's like a shadow sometimes that I still have. But I'm privileged.

I feel privileged to have been able to live through poverty and now share my story and hopefully challenge society to do a little bit better by poor people. And then also empower other women like me who may feel that they're not worth something because of their experiences in education or society. Amazing. Dr. Katrina O'Sullivan. Thanks so much for spending some time with us. Your book is poor. Highly recommend it. An amazing story. I wish you all the best. Now we are going to move on on Women's Art to our next item. This month marks 10 years since a law authorising same-sex couples to marry and adopt children was passed in France. The decision, taken in 2013 by then-President François Hollande,

came just months after street protests, you might remember, which saw more than 200 arrests. But it wasn't until 2021 that single women and also lesbian couples were allowed to get fertility treatment following two years of parliamentary debate. It brought France in line with the UK, where it's been available to both single women and lesbian couples for years.

The new French film, La Grande, or The Seed, looks at the journey of a lesbian couple, Inès and Lucie, on their quest to have a baby. It is set before the law came into force in France and the film follows them crossing the border to Belgium, where it is legal for their final attempt. So what's the situation like now in France?

Well, I'm joined by the director of La Grande, Héloïse Lange, and journalist for France 24 based in Paris who has been following the developments, Claire Pakkelin. You're both so welcome. Claire, let me start with you. So 10 years since all of this happened.

I mean, how has it been received in france so 10 years since same-sex marriage was legalized but only a year and a half since lesbian couples and single women have been allowed to get fertility treatment like ivf but also artificial insemination. So it took a long time. It really was that until that law passed in August 2021. It was illegal for a French woman in a lesbian couple or for a French single woman to have that fertility treatment in France. She had no choice. She had to go to often Belgium, as we saw in the film La Grene.

But Spain has been a destination for a long time. Denmark and Portugal are also destinations. And that's just how it worked. You know, I've spoken to many, many women who are in that situation. And they, you know, often the question was, oh, she's pregnant. Oh, so who's the papa? Oh, she went to Belgium, just became the route that women who were in lesbian couples, more single women in France, they just had no choice. What's interesting is that now, the law has changed. So they can get that fertility treatment and they can get it paid for up until their 43rd birthday by the public health system. But in reality, very little has changed on the ground. And that's because the waiting lists are far too

long. So the health authorities did not anticipate how many women would ask for the treatment, particularly single women, often with a profile in their late 30s, early 40s, they don't have long to wait, they can't stick around waiting on a waiting list for a year or two. And the health system just hasn't caught up. I've got an example. I spoke to a single woman who was 38. A few months after the law changed, she signed up with a hospital saying that she wanted to have fertility treatment. A year later, she's still waiting for her first appointment with a doctor. Since then, she's had twins she got pregnant about a year ago she has beautiful twins that were born around Christmas time and the way she did it was actually going she didn't go to Belgium she didn't have the cash to go to Belgium because it's

you know several thousand euros by the time you've got there paid for accommodation and paid for the treatment and the donor sperm so what she did is actually illegal but everyone is turning a blind eye she went to a gynecologist in Paris who a friendly gynecologist who agrees to have her import the sperm from a Danish sperm bank because it's Denmark is this is where a culture of donating sperm has been in place for many years now she She imported the sperm. It was sent to the gynaecologist's office and the gynaecologist carried out the artificial insemination and she managed to get pregnant. But that actually is illegal. Right, but people are doing it, is what you're saying.

People are doing it because it's the way around, because the public health system cannot keep up with demand. Let me turn, Eloise, then you really, this film that you created, set, of course, before it happened, but it happened. But it sounds like women are still trying to find sperm in various places. It's very funny. Why did you decide to make it a more of a rom-com to try and get this issue across? Yeah, I was seeing all these friends having to go abroad and becoming outlaws because they wanted a baby. So that's how the idea of making this road movie came to me.

And yes, you have this couple who has a very strong desire to have a kid. And it's very complicated. So everything they do is because of love. So yeah, it's a rom-com and I chose to make it a comedy so that, I don't know, maybe this story would get a broader audience because what Claire is saying is that we really need some information on all of that. Yes.

What do you want people to take from the film? I haven't seen a film like it before. It's really fun. It's like a madcap adventure, even though it's actually reflecting what was happening in France at that time? I think I would love I think empathy is what I want people to get

from this movie empathy for these women empathy for all the couples that that are struggling to

to get pregnant because it's really tough and empathy for same-sex couples I think

the world needs empathy today on so many subjects and maybe making it a comedy would help that. And you do have that Scandinavian aspect in the film as well. Is that something that you've seen, that people instead of going to Belgium were heading up north? Well, there's the question of money, of course. That's what Claire said, you need cash. So there is this question of needing some money to have a baby.

And so that's why it gets so crazy that it's the last attempt. They have no money anymore to try again. And that's why there's always this thing. So Scandinavian, yeah, I said it was like a luxury, but that's not totally exact, I think. I understand the various strata of where you can go to get the babies. There's one scene where there's all these babies that they managed to get impregnated from sperm

from Scandinavia. Just before I let you go, Claire, why was there, just in 20 seconds, why was there such a gap between same-sex marriage being legal and then actually lesbian couples or single women being able to have assisted reproduction?

The gap was that there was a big division in French society. The same-sex marriage bill didn't pass easily. There were months of demonstrations against same-sex marriage and for as well. And so it took a long time for French society as well as French politics to have an appetite to bring in legislation to allow lesbian couples and single women to have IVF. It took a long time. But we're still not there yet, considering those waiting lines.

Claire Pachelin and Eloise Lang, thank you both so much to talk to us about La Gren, which will be out on Amazon Prime in the UK in the summer. Do join Anita tomorrow. She will have Nima El-Bagir, CNN's chief international investigative correspondent, talking about rape in the current conflict in

Sudan. I'll see you on Monday. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. international editor. For nearly 40 years, I've been reporting from some of the most complex and dangerous places in the world. In my new 10-part series, Frontlines of Journalism, I'm taking you to some of the most difficult stories I've had to cover. Six mortar rounds landed in or around the graveyard. Get a bit emotional about it, actually. To look at the obstacles that get in the way of the truth and how journalists like me navigate around them. It is never definitive. We can have this argument. Journalists tend to argue.

Every word that comes out of your mouth is a form of opinion. If the world saw, the world would react. Subscribe to Frontlines of Journalism from BBC Radio 4 now on BBC Sounds. The more paper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.