Woman's Hour - India's women voters, Dame Harriet Walter on Clara Schumann, Climate medal winner

Episode Date: May 24, 2024

As India goes to the polls in the penultimate round of voting in their general election, Anita speaks to the BBC’s Divya Arya in Delhi. They discuss what political issues are most important to women in this election, and how the main parties have been wooing them.Valérie Courtois was recently announced as the winner of the 2024 Shackleton medal for her work revolutionizing climate conservation in the Canadian arctic, most notably for her vision connecting Indigenous Guardians as ‘the eyes and ears on the ground’ to preserve ecosystems. Valérie talks to Anita about leading the movement for indigenous-led conservation and land stewardship.   Carys Holmes is a 17-year-old girl with an ambition to join the British Army. She passed all of her army selection tests but says she was later taken aside and told she was being rejected because of an 'extensive' history of breast cancer in her family. Anita is joined by Carys who explains that the army has now retracted its decision. Emma Norton, a lawyer and Director of the Centre for Military Justice, also joins. Clara Schumann was one of the greatest female musicians of the 19th Century – a virtuoso performer who gave over 1,500 concerts in a 60 year career, all while raising eight children and financially supporting her household. Concert pianist Lucy Parham and actress Dame Harriet Walter join Anita to discuss their concert I, Clara which celebrates the ground-breaking life and work of Clara Schumann in her own right.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Maryam Maruf Studio managers: Donald McDonald and Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. We are a nation who loves our gardens and our countryside. And this morning, I'd like to hear how you feel about the land. What's your relationship to it? Which part of the planet is the place that you feel most connected to and why? The place that you would want to protect first if it was under threat?

I'd make a beeline for Ilkley Moors, Bartat, because it's my therapy. But where's your spot? And why is it a place you love so much? The air, the breeze, the nature, the colours, or simply the way you feel when you're there. Maybe there's a childhood connection or a significant place in your personal life that you'd like to tell me about. Get in touch in the usual way, the text number 84844. You can also email me via our website or you can WhatsApp me or voice note 03700 100 444. And if you want to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour.

I ask you this because I'll be talking to this year's recipients of the Shackleton Medal for the Protection of Polar Regions. It's a prestigious award given to someone in recognition of the work they've done for our planet. Valerie Courtois will be joining us from Canada. She describes herself as an indigenous guardian protecting the ecosystem. I'll be finding out what she means. And it's Friday, so a real treat for you today, some live music. We'll be hearing the story of Clara Schumann, known as the wife of composer Robert Schumann, but she was a groundbreaking virtuoso in her own right. And seeing as we've already got Lucy Parham sitting

at the grand piano, maybe you could just give us a little taste, Lucy. Oh, that's magic. Oh, tingles already. If you are lucky enough to be sitting in your garden in the sunshine with a cup of tea, you are in for a perfect morning. Lucy's going to be joined by Dame Harriet Walter later to tell us all about Clara. But first, it's not just us. India has a general election happening this summer, too. And in the world's largest democracy, female voters could outnumber males for the first time the penultimate round of voting for the loxaba or the lower house of parliament gets underway tomorrow on the on saturday the 25th of may with the final round happening in early june let's have a listen to what some women in the state

of bihar had to say earlier this month when asked about the political issues that are most important to them. There should be equality even in parliament. The ratio of men to women is currently skewed and must be addressed. The most important thing is employment. Everyone must have equal rights. Women should absolutely progress. It will make us feel proud that women are getting opportunities. There has been a shift in mindset.

We now want our daughters to achieve what we couldn't. If we had our own money, we would spend it the way we like, on ourselves, on food, on our children. But we are dependent on the money our husbands give us. We would like for there to be businesses where we can work and earn our own money. Safety is the biggest thing for us. Women should be able to go wherever they want to go, whenever they want to go. But right now, women are not safe.

We worry something untoward could happen when we are outside. Prices need to be reduced. For us women, it's the price of food, everyday kitchen and household items that need to be brought under control. Voices of Bihari women gathered in India by the BBC's Samira Hussain. I'm joined now by senior bilingual correspondent in Delhi, Divya Arya. Welcome to Women's Hour, Divya. I mean, give us some context of the types of voices we were hearing there. And are those the concerns that are shared by female voters across the country? Hi, Anita, good to be back on the programme and a resounding

yes. Price rise, unemployment, control on their lives, safety are definitely issues that concern women and they are becoming more vocal. We've seen a real difference, I think, in the last two decades, especially with more women coming out to vote, but also detaching themselves as an extension of their families or their communities in terms of their decision making on who they vote for. So their own concerns, which may be coming from their kitchen or if they're working from, you know, the job market, but they are their own concerns. Not to say they're not influenced by their communities, by their families' preferences, but they are speaking up their own mind now. So you mentioned that a lot's happened in the last two decades, but what's happened most recently? We heard there from one speaker saying there's been a shift in mindset.

We don't want our daughters to have to live the lives that we lived or make the choices that we made. So I think two distinct things have happened. One is that there is an increased representation of women at the village council levels. That's literally the first level of governance in our country. And there's a law that has increased representation of women at that level. And initially, it wasn't really being truly followed. Women were just being put up as proxies by their husbands or brothers or fathers who were still running the show. But that is changing now. And women, when they're getting elected to those posts at the village level,

are the ones taking decisions. So that's given them more authority. That's given them more exposure as well, in terms of their rights, what they can demand and how their lot can be better, which is what these women were referring to. The other is that political parties have kind of woken up and realized that this was a group of people they were not targeting through their policies, through their promises. So they have brought in, and this is across political parties, not just the ruling party right now, which has been in the centre for 10 years, but many regional parties, the main opposition party, whichever party, wherever they are in power at the state level or at the central level, have brought in bespoke policies that give direct benefit to women specifically. Like what? How have the main parties been wooing women voters?

So there are schemes that guarantee them a gas cylinder, which is a big thing for women who are still largely in charge of the homes, they're homemakers. There are schemes that enable them to open bank accounts. Now, mind you, a lot of these women, especially in rural areas, do not even have identification cards of any kind. They're just invisible. They have been invisible in their households. Now there are schemes that will give them money to do something and put that money in a bank account and therefore open a bank account for them. So that just changes

the game altogether. It suddenly gives them an identity. They're there on paper. Their families can't ignore them because there's money coming to their account. So you see how their negotiation changes within the family completely. And it makes them more of a force themselves. How do things like religion, geography, caste and class influence the way a woman will vote? They make a huge difference, which is where the influence of the community and family also come in. I continuously say that despite these welfare benefits that I was just alluding to, and they do make a difference, definitely make a difference, it's pulling women out to cast their vote. But at the same time, they are a part of the larger picture that a woman is experiencing in her life. And that is determined by her religion. The country is quite divided on religious lines right now. We've historically had caste divisions play a huge role in terms of how

people from the so-called upper caste within Hinduism, especially, treat people from which are considered the lower caste. So that impacts women too. Their economic class impacts their decision making, where they live in the country, whether it is a militarized zone like Kashmir, or it is a relatively poorer state like Bihar, from where we were hearing these women's voices, or a very developed state like Tamil Nadu in the south, that will also change what their expectations from the political parties are and how they're going to vote. The final results will be known on the 4th of June. Will women have outnumbered men as voters this time? Well, I sure hope so. Last election in 2019, they just came like very, very, very close.

Just a few percentage points, which can mean a lot. We're a country with a billion people. So a few percentage points does translate into hundreds of thousands of people. But yeah, they came very close. There's been a mixed report up until now, as you know, India votes in phases. So the election is spread out over a month and a half because it's a huge country, remote areas. There's also safety concerns. So we voted in seven phases. Initially, there were reports that women were not coming out as much as expected.

But those reports have changed. And in fact, in the last phase that voted, there were reports that women came out in larger numbers, in fact, more than men. So where does the final math lie? I don't know. But I think women are making sure they are getting counted because that's why you and I are talking about that. Absolutely. But when you say safety concerns, what do you mean? Well, there can be attacks on voting booths. There can be disruptions that are caused by various elements who have various reasons to disrupt the electoral process. We saw that happening in areas which are polarized on any factor that can be religion, that can be caste. And therefore, disrupting the political process is kind of saying that we do not trust the powers that be. So those, especially areas like Kashmir,

areas in the eastern part of the country, where there is Maoist forces are still at play, or places like the state of Bengal in the east, where just the political climate is very charged and the political workers of both parties, which are considered the front runners, are very violent. And, you know, they can just get into fights very quickly. And those fights can actually mean taking away polling booths, voting machines out of polling booths, or disrupting the whole process or threatening people who are coming to cast their vote. So therefore, the government puts a lot of military personnel, a lot of civilian police forces, moves them around the whole country from one phase to another to ensure that peace is maintained while people cast their vote.

Female voters may have increased, but women remain a minority in terms of members of parliament. Is that likely to change? Well, it is definitely likely to change because the parliament finally, after decades and decades of having discussions and stalling, passed a bill that will guarantee representation of women at the level of parliament, just like we have at the level of village councils. But that does not come into force before 2029. After that, how easily that changeover happens, because political

parties constantly talk about not enough women to choose from in terms of those they can put up and give tickets to. Well, that remains to be seen. It's like the walk the talk phenomena, because across board, Anita, all political parties, they've, you know, it's like a musical chair, there's somebody in power, then they're in opposition. Wherever they find themselves, they talk about getting more women into parliament, but everybody is safeguarding the traditional place of men in politics. Do we know whether women are more likely to vote for a woman?

That's very hard to say. That's really very hard to say because there are different kinds of reasons that women are coming into power some of them are coming into power as extension of their families just like a lot of men do through their fathers brothers others in in politics some are definitely coming from down up from the ground their party workers and they rise through the ranks and eventually get to the stock position of a member of parliament. So what they are actually proposing to the voter is not only because of their gender, it's also because of the politics of their party. And sometimes those concerns become larger because

it is so hard to get that position in the party. So women cannot take a position that is different from the party, but maybe more pro-gender if their party is not being that pro-gender. So I think it's kind of simplistic to assume that women, when they come in positions of power in politics, will only speak with women's interest. No, there will be other concerns that will weigh in. And similarly, a woman voter will not only vote on gender. Like we discussed, there'll be so many other concerns that play in. I just want to remind people of some of the figures here. 969 million eligible voters is the largest democracy in the world.

The election's taking place over quite a large period from April to June. Divya, have you cast your vote yet? And can you tell us what that experience was like? Just paint a picture of what it's like for a woman in a metropolitan city in India going to the polling booths is like. Anita, I cast my vote tomorrow. I'm very excited about it to get my finger inked. So what happens is a lot of schools, believe me not, are turned into polling booths in cities. And people from the neighborhood, they queue up. Their ID cards are checked.

It's quite hot outside. It's 46 degrees as we talk. So we are hoping to go in like we as in me and my parents. We're hoping to go in really early, around seven or eight, soon after polling begins. And it goes on till six o'clock because it is really hot. So people don't have to like stand in queue in the sweltering afternoon. And then we have electronic voting machines. We essentially have to press a button and it's a secret ballot. So nobody knows. And then there is a paper receipt that is generated that confirms that your vote

has been cast to the party you chose. And then your index finger is inked in black colour. And that's supposed to be an indelible ink. And that is supposed to prevent voter fraud. And most of us, I think, including me, flaunt it, take a selfie and tell the world we've done our duty. I've seen a lot of inked fingers on my Instagram feed. Divya Arya, always a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you for that. And that's Divya Arya, the BBC's senior bilingual correspondent in Delhi, a bit of land I love most is my allotment in Somerset. Can't afford to own land, but it's one bit of the planet I have some control over and can fill it with plants and pollinators. Kat says, I'm lucky enough to live on the North Norfolk coast.

Lucky you. The beautiful pine forests and adjacent Holcombe Beach is my go-to place and has been for 16 years. The beach stretches for miles and the sea and skies are ever-changing. The land is looked after by the Holcombe beach is my go-to place and has been for 16 years the beach stretches for miles and the sea and skies are ever-changing the land is looked after by the holcombe estate they do a wonderful conservation job with incredible bird life such as spoonbills and pink-footed geese and curlews i'm grateful to have access to this beautiful place i don't know what i'd do without it i know that beach and you're absolutely right stunning and keep them

coming in there's lots of you sharing your beautiful green spaces with me. 84844 is the number to text. And the reason we're talking about this is because of my next guest. She was recently announced as the winner of the 2024 Shackleton Medal for the Protection of the Polar Regions. Congratulations to Valerie Courtois for her work revolutionizing climate conservation in the Canadian Arctic. And that includes building a national movement of indigenous guardians to preserve ecosystems. She joins us now live from Labrador in Canada. Valerie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Congratulations. What time is it where you are? Thank you very much. It's almost 6.20 a.m.

So it's a little early for me, but I'm super honored to be joining you this morning. Oh, well, we are super honored. What does the land mean to you? I'm asking all our listeners to tell me what it means to them. What does it mean to you? Oh my gosh.

Do you have two hours? It's a woman's hour. Cues in the title. The land to me is fundamental to my identity, to my understanding of my place in this world, my responsibilities as a woman, as a citizen, but also as just another being in amongst this beautiful diversity of other beings. And now your work, which we are going to talk about so that everybody understands the incredible work that you've been doing,

has received, you've received lots of accolades, but how do you feel about winning this particular one, the Shackleton Medal? It's decided by a group of polar experts at the Royal Geographical Society. And here you are as an indigenous woman receiving this award. It is quite an honour. I've been telling folks that I never expected

to have my name next to Shackleton's name. It is quite something. His, the spirit of his expeditions and I've had the privilege of being able to visit some of the places in the Arctic region that he had been by ship as well. And I can imagine partially what he experienced, but also there's quite a difference in the environment since he's visited. The conditions have changed significantly.

And Labrador, interestingly enough, is a bit of a climate refuge where we are isolated from the major changes that we're seeing in the western part of the Boreal and Arctic because of the melting of Greenland, which is cooling our currents. And so in many ways, the region where I'm from, which is a polar region, has a particular role as we face and try to understand how to adapt to the realities of climate change. A particular role for the whole planet. Let's understand the work that you do and that has led you to receiving this incredible award. And it's Indigenous-led conservation, and you set up the Indigenous Leadership Initiative 10 years ago.

So tell us a bit about that. Yes. So, Anita, as you know, every square inch of Canada is traditional territories to an Indigenous nation. And there's a number of Indigenous nations in Canada, somewhere around 60, depending on how you look at them, 634 reserves. There are 51 Inuit communities in four Inuit regions and countless Métis communities. So we have a landscape that is Indigenous in this entire country. And as Indigenous peoples, part of our identity, as I explained, part of our very, very harsh landscape because of our relationship with this place.

So when Canada announced that it was adhering to international targets around conservation of lands and waters, they also recognized that the only strategy for Canada to achieve that was by working with Indigenous peoples who have been kind of the most innovative and the most ready to do the work on conservation, and not just in establishing protected areas or other forms of conservation expressions, but also of stewarding those areas. So of having humans whose job it is to take care and to bring in all of that incredible knowledge and science that we have from generations of relationship with those landscapes. And now the vast majority of protected areas in Canada

have been put in place by Indigenous peoples in partnership with crown governments. And there are now over 200 guardian programs. So almost a quarter of our communities now have guardians working with and for them. And the landscapes are better for it. Modern science with ancient wisdom, hand in hand, side by side.

And you describe yourself as an indigenous guardian. Tell us about when you talk about guardians. This is what you mean i i need to actually i i wish i could aspire to be a guardian in fact part of my my motivation personally in doing this work is when i was younger if i had the option of becoming a guardian that is absolutely what i would have done it is the most sensational job there is no typical day, you're on the land, you're able to completely express your cultural values and morals and laws. And that is a rarity in this country in terms of the modern wage economy. So I wish I was a guardian. A guardian is, we like to say, our eyes and ears on the ground

or our moccasins and mucklucks on the ground. Essentially, they do everything from monitor the world's largest nickel mine to manage national parks, to ensure that community members are well-informed of implications for proposed development, to making sure that our leadership in each one of the nations can make the decisions that we ask them to, which is not always easy because in remote areas, often employment prospects or revenue prospects are rare. And how many guardians are women? I would say, Anita, that in the actual guardians, there's probably a little less than a little less than a third of the actual guardians are women. But interestingly,

the coordinators of the program, the majority of them are women. And I think it really lines up well with our ability to manage our households and manage families and kind of that natural ability to make sure that everybody is taken care of, that there's a real good fit for women in those positions. how many young, talented, dedicated people are out there and who are doing this not only for their own benefit or the benefit of nations, but also the benefit of the globe, considering that much of Canada is the boreal forest, the largest intact forest left on this planet. You mentioned your childhood there briefly, saying that it was a dream for you to even try and become a guardian. So tell us a little bit about your childhood there briefly, saying that, you know, it was a dream for you to even try and become a guardian. So tell us a little bit about your childhood and your connection to the land and where this passion came from.

Well, I grew up in RCMP Brat. So the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is where my father worked. And as a result of that, I moved around quite a bit as a young child. And it explains my English, actually. French is my first language. And so that kind of being unrooted in everyday life, I think led me to want to be rooted in times that I could make that happen. I've deliberately sought rootedness as a result of kind of this movement as a young person. But even when we were moving around, we always, you know,

the reserve was always kind of our home base. It's where we would go for the summers. And, and my family would often come visit me. I remember my, my grandmother was, she loved to drive. And so no matter what part of the country we're at, at some point, my grandmother came in her giant, giant car and, and, and came to visit. So had we had deep deep connections my family still lives in the community etc and so I was able to foster that and I remember fishing with my grandfather when I was 11 the ice had just left the lake and we were we were fishing for landlocked salmon and I put up the net and we were in a little boat. So he was in the back guiding the boat and the motor as I was checking the fish net in the front.

And it was cold. I remember my fingers being curled permanently for a long time after I was playing the net. And I heard him laughing behind me. And I was quite a proud kid. And I whipped around and i said why are you laughing i'm pulling the net i'm doing it and he said no no i'm this is pride i see that you're in your element i really hope that you continue to do this when you grow up wonderful pride pride and seeing you in your element i mean exactly i just wonder when i was um and i knew that

i was going to be talking to you and I was very excited to speak to you. The significance of you being an indigenous woman getting this award was was right there for the forefront because we've covered on this program the trauma faced by indigenous people. We've talked about children being removed from their homes, sent to residential schools and including more recently the bodies of Indigenous children found in unmarked graves across Canada. So how do you feel Indigenous people have been treated in Canada and you then getting this award hand in hand? I mean, my father is a survivor of residential school. Many of my family members are survivors of residential school. My grandmother, when she went to school, was not permitted to go past grade six because the government estimated that an Indigenous person that was educated could be troublesome or even that we would lose our status should we

choose to go in university at the time. I remember being young and my grandfather telling me the story of when he first voted in Canada. And I, you know, at the time I said, boy, you must have been really, really young. He said, no, no, I was in my 50s the first time I voted. And he talked about putting on his suit and being very proud systemic racism and other kind of legacies of colonialism. But Indigenous peoples are very resilient. We're still here despite all of those efforts, deliberate genocide, all of those things. And, and we have doctors and lawyers and foresters and professionals in all avenues. And it's, I think it's, it's really great to be getting this recognition and, and for, for Canadian and other societies to see us as, as a part of that society, as, as genuine contributors and, and people who are able to build and help contribute to our

collective prosperity. And this recognition helps that. Absolutely. And also that, you know, 10,000 years of knowledge and wisdom that absolutely can sit side by side with modern day science. It's been wonderful to speak to you. I watched your TED Talk last night, and something really struck me right at the beginning. I'm going to paraphrase, which is a great leader always leaves people feeling hope. And so thank you for that. We feel hopeful. And these messages coming in from our listeners are very hopeful. I'm going to read some of those out.

Valerie, thank you so much for speaking to us so early in the morning from Canada. Congratulations once again. Lots of your messages coming in. Janet says, i would want to protect our local park star park bank i worked hard over the last 10 years to renovate it it's a very special peaceful walled garden by the sea in north edinburgh jacqueline says my go-to place is flamborough yes east riding of yorkshire magically stunning area with the chalk cliffs and caves it includes thornwick bay north landing south landing

and flamborough head of course um florence uh florence here hello florence my special place is north wales um uh snowdonia generally but the view from bedroom window in particular where i grew up not enough people visit this beautiful and underrated part of our country you're surrounded by the mountains and the sea and you have the stunning light of the West Coast. Until now, everyone's going to be making a beeline for it this weekend. Now, in case you missed it, in yesterday's programme, which is, of course, on BBC Sounds, we heard about forgotten women of the circus,

including the story of this extraordinary performer. There was an amazing woman in the 1930s called Coringa who was a big star in her day. But because war broke out and she was kind of pre-television, she kind of got forgotten about in a way. Who was Koringa? What did she do? So she climbed a ladder of swords and she hypnotised crocodiles. Of course. She laid on a bed of nails and had a concrete block broken over her stomach.

And she did all these extraordinary things. She was reputedly the highest paid star of the Bertram Mills Circus. But also apparently, and we don't know if this was her publicity or if this is true, but she was a bit of an activist and she worked for the French Resistance. And the story goes that what she did for the French Resistance was hypnotise farm animals on enemy lines so that soldiers could cross at night. I mean, what a brilliant story, Coringa. If you want to see images of Coringa hypnotising crocodiles or climbing a ladder of swords, and why wouldn't you? I would urge you to take a look at our Instagram page. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course, get in touch about anything you hear on the programme or anything you might want us to talk about on the programme.

You can text us on 84844. Once again, our social media is at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, this morning, we hear from a 17-year-old girl who it was reported had been rejected by the army because two members of her family have had breast cancer. Caris Holmes from Derbyshire had a 50-50 chance of inheriting a gene fault from her mother but has not been tested for it yet. She passed all of her selection tests for the army but says she was later taken aside and told she was being rejected because of an extensive history of breast cancer in her family. There were no claims that this was a case of sexual discrimination. I spoke earlier to Carys, there were claims that this was a case of sexual discrimination, sorry, I spoke earlier to Carys who gave me an update on her case as well as Emma Norton, a lawyer and director of the Centre for Military Justice. I started by asking Keris why she wanted to join the army.

It's not something I've always wanted to do, to be honest. It's something that I saw one day and I was like, I'm interested in this. And I started reading into it and getting into it and I decided that's what I wanted to do. I went to a briefing where they explained it and that's when I fell in love with it. And I was like, this is definitely what I want to do but yeah what did you fall in love with uh so they

were like explaining like um basically the lifestyle and uh what is the career is like and the benefits of the career and sharing videos and interviews with soldiers and i was like i was loving it i was like yeah this is what I want to do so tell us a bit about the selection process um so it was a long process I applied in October um and then I went through uh I'd send them like my medical records and they just kind of glanced through it at that point and give me the all clear and then I went to my assessment centre, which is three days. And there's your medical, your fitness and your cognitive tests. And it was at that point where they told me that I'd been rejected. Before we find out what that was and what they'd said to you, how hard did you train for the selection process? Yeah, very hard. So I found out I was going to the selection process about two months before, I think it was.

And about like basically every day I was on the treadmill, going on bike rides in the gym. We've got a little home gym as well. So I was always in there. But yeah, I trained very hard. And then the selection process very physical um yeah there was so out of the three days there was one physical day uh where you did all your physical tests and then there was a medical day as well and how did you do um so on the physical tests i did well yeah passed what i needed to on the so there's medicine ball throw um and then there's a mid-fire pull which is basically like deadly um and I passed them for what I needed to what did they say so I got to the point where it was the interview process so at this point all the medical

people who had failed had gone home so it was all the people that passed the medical so at this point I thought I'd passed I thought everything was fine then I was about to do my interview and I'm about to get my certificate to actually say that I'll basically go into my basic training and I had passed and they pulled me out last minute and said to me you're not medically fit to join because you've got an extensive history of breast cancer in your family And what did you say at that point? I said it wasn't extensive because it was literally just my mum and my auntie. So I thought the word extensive wasn't really fair. And then I also, like, sort of questioned why it would be a problem.

And they basically said to me that the time off so if i found out that i had the gene the time off for me to have preventative surgery would basically be too much of a hassle to them how did the army know that it was the brachial one gene they asked me about when they saw that i had a family history of breast cancer so they said is it a gene and i said yeah and they asked me which one and uh because it was on my medical records because um of something different trying to get the pill and um so it was on my medical records then and then said like family history breast cancer so he kind of said to me what's this and asked me lots of questions asking if it was a gene and so at that point that's when i said it was the BRCA1 gene. And what is your risk of getting breast cancer do you know?

It's very very low so there's a 50-50 chance of me having the gene but then compared to the general population so I think the general population is like 0.1% chance of getting breast cancer and then with me with the gene before I'm 30 I think it's something like a 1.9% chance of me getting it so it's very very low. And what happened after they rejected your application or they pulled you out and said you know we're not going to take this further? So everyone had got their certificates at that point and celebrating and I was the only one there who hadn't got through. So I went home at that point and that's when me and mum decided we weren't going to take this, basically.

And your mum's going through treatment for breast cancer at the moment isn't she yeah how is she how's she doing uh she's okay yeah um yeah it's stable at the minute but yeah she's okay um we have had a statement from the army i'm going to read it out to you actually and see what you what you think of it and get your your thoughts off the back of it um they've said if a candidate appears at risk of a specific genetic disorder the occupational physician responsible for recruit selection will assess the risk and its likely impact on the candidate's health and safety in a military workplace normally without the need for genetic testing they went on to say we're not going to discuss the medical details of any army applicant without their specific consent.

However, we can confirm that we're reviewing the circumstances of this case and have contacted the individual to explain what's happened and apologise. The issue is now being managed by the army's head of recruiting personally. Yeah, so I did. I think when they, the BBC reached out to get that statement, they rung me saying they were worried and apologised to me. But I do think the whole affecting the workplace is not true because, yeah, if I found out I had the gene, I would have to go and get preventative surgery. But I would only be off for like, what, say three, four months and then be straight back on it. So I don't really think it affects it very much. I'm going to bring in the director of the Centre for Military Justice now, the lawyer Emma Norton. Morning, Emma. What's your reaction to this?

Well, it beggars belief, really, because it's so blatantly discriminatory, isn't it? And if it seems like they are adopting a policy of excluding anybody who's got what they call an extensive family history of breast cancer, and actually, Harris doesn't have an extensive family history of breast cancer, but even if she did, they seem to be adopting a policy that is going to massively disproportionately impact on women for obvious reasons. Although men can get breast cancer, it's very rare. It's much more common in women, of course. So it's going to have that impact. And it was on the basis of no individual assessment. Although Karras was told we are going to go and get

specialist input on this, it doesn't look like they did and yet they have just very lazily I think excluded her and you do wonder how many other potential applicants might have been weeded out in this similar way and who didn't realize that they might have might have been able to do something about it and it's brilliant that Caris and her mother have. Have you ever come across anything like this before? No, I haven't. And it really does beg a belief, as I say, because this is a time where the army is under a lot of fire

for the way it's behaving towards women. They're also under fire because of under-recruitment. You'd think they'd want to be making the army a more attractive place for young people. And actually, they just seem to have shot themselves in the foot with this. It's not unusual for the army to reject people on health grounds, though, is it? And they should be able to do that. Absolutely. And there are clearly some conditions where it wouldn't be appropriate.

And the army is, the forces are entitled to take a much more rigorous approach to those kinds of questions, because the things that we ask people to do when they're in the services do require a good level of physical fitness and health, depending on what the roles are. But that's not what happened here. This was a blanket, blanket policy of refusing somebody who appears to have a history of breast cancer, who herself has very low risk and who is in very, very good health and who would in all other respects appear to be a fantastic candidate. And the thing is, though, even if, and I'm sure people listening might be thinking this, even if Caris were to get breast cancer, and of course, we don't want that to happen, Caris, but if someone like Caris were to, why would this be a reason for

not to be able to join the army? Well it wouldn't and it isn't uh because as caris has explained in fact if she was going to have preventative surgery i understand that the time period within within which people take time off for that for that kind of treatment is is smaller and smaller it's a few weeks i understand there are multiple medical conditions which people need to have time off for and the army the services are perfectly capable of dealing with that if and when it arises as it does with any other medical condition. You don't have a crystal ball. You can't know what's going to happen in your future. And actually, the brutal truth is if you're in the services and you develop a medical condition that makes it no longer appropriate for you to serve, they can medically discharge you. So worse comes to worse, they could still do something about it. I mean, you mentioned it there that men can also carry

the faulty gene and develop the disease. And Wendy Watson, who set up the National Helpline for People with a Family History of Breast Cancer, says that Karis's case is one of sex discrimination. What do you think about this? Are you asking me that question? Yeah, I completely agree. It is one of sex discrimination. I think it's more to do with the fact that this policy of automatically excluding people who have a family history of breast cancer, although it can affect men, is much more likely to affect women. And therefore, if they're adopting that policy, it's going to have a disproportionate impact on women. And as you know, you're well aware, Grant Shapps, the Defence Secretary, has said he sees female recruits as the solution for the recruitment crisis in the army.

Does this, well, it makes you even more surprised about this decision? Absolutely. As I say, they've really shot themselves in the foot with this one. So what advice would you give to Carys? I mean, she's listening, she's there. Well, we've obviously been talking about this. The Equality Act is very clear. It's not just employees that employers are not allowed to discriminate against. They're not allowed to discriminate against you in the arrangements they make for recruiting you. So if we're right in our analysis about the way in which they've approached this case, they clearly, they are clearly in breach of the Equality Act

and there is legal action that could be taken. So, Keris, how do you feel listening to all of that? Yeah, 300%. Yeah, I was speaking to Emma about taking legal action, but we decided against it when the army kind of redeemed themselves by ringing me and apologising and offering me the job basically so yeah but I do think I agree with the whole men thing I think if it was a man and they had like history of breast cancer in their family, they wouldn't be asked to take the test or be in the same situation as me at all,

even though it's rarer in men. Yeah. It's still not fair. So they've offered you the job? Yeah. Are you going to take it? Yeah, I am. How do you feel about it?

It's a bit of a bumpy start, but you've got the job. First of all, congratulations. That's a huge achievement. It's what you wanted. Yeah, it is, yeah. I wish it didn't come down to this, really. I wish this wasn't the reason why they've offered me the job. And they've said that it was a mistake.

They made a mistake, but I think they wouldn't have noticed the mistake if it wasn't for this. Yeah. And the publicity, really. So it's quite sad that it's come down to this, but I am very happy that it's all worked out in the end, basically. Well, you've definitely got a fighter's gene in you.

Yeah. That was me talking to Carys Holmes earlier this morning and also Emma Norton, the lawyer and director of the Centre for Military Justice. And the army have been in touch with us since we heard from Carys and said they've reviewed her case and concluded that she was wrongly told that she'd been rejected as medically unfit. She's now been passed as medically fit to join the army and her application is being processed.

The spokesperson also said this was a process mistake and not a policy of discrimination. 84844 is the text number. Lots of you getting in touch about the bits of land that are most meaningful to you. David says Richmond Park is my favourite place. I spent most of my childhood playing there. Beverley Brook was great fun. Great Mines, someone says. Ilkley Moor is where I would like my ashes spreading.

Looking up into the Yorkshire Dales from above the Cow and Calf rocks. Oh, yes. And Amanda says I live in Exetereter which is close to both glorious coast and countryside exeter also has one of the oldest ship canals in the country which was built in the 1516 1560s and has many green spaces around it for wildlife and recreation i'm lucky to be a stone's throw away for long dog walks with my westy bonnie thank you for your messages. That text number again, 84844. And what knowledgeable listeners you are. Do love the facts that you send me.

Now, how many of us can say we were a child prodigy going on international tours as a teenager and having a cake named after us? I'm guessing not too many of us. But in spite of a groundbreaking career as a virtuoso performer, the pianist and composer Clara Schumann still isn't well known by many. Or she's known more for being the devoted wife of composer Robert Schumann. Well, to celebrate the life and music of Clara in her own right, concert pianist Lucy Parham is bringing her illustrated concert I, Clara to Wigmore Hall this June. Previously performed with the help from Juliet

Stevenson, Patricia Hodge and Joanna David but this time Lucy is joined by the gorgeous and talented Dame Harriet Walter. Lucy and Harriet join me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. You've got quite a black book haven't you Lucy? Well it's not too bad I guess. I'm very lucky to work with some wonderful actors and actresses. What was appealing about this particular job, Harriet? Well, I've done some other programmes with Lucy. She does these wonderful profiles where you combine the life and letters and readings from the actual composers. And then you listen to the music and they both feed one another.

And so I'd done other programmes with her. And particularly, I was interested in Clara Schumann, because, as you say, she wasn't, she's not known in the way that her husband was. And no one's saying she's quite up there with Robert Schumann, but she is a fantastically good composer in her own right. And we don't know enough about her. Well, let's find out. Lucy, tell us, give us a quick intro into Clara. Who was she? Well, the interesting thing is that in her lifetime, she was much more famous than her husband, Robert. We know the life of Robert Schumann, of course, but yeah, she was a child prodigy. She was groomed for stardom by her rather tyrannical father who used to, I think

probably today, might not survive the courts. But she was really playing concerts, you know, when she was six, seven, eight years old. She was basically a female version of Mozart, taken around to play in all the halls of Paris. She met Chopin when she was 14. And as you mentioned at the start there, she even had a cake named after her. And then she married Robert Schumann and she performed all his work. She was a standard bearer for his works. And basically, in my mind, she's superwoman. You know, she had eight children. Eight children.

Eight children. In fact, she was pregnant, I believe, around ten times that she had two miscarriages. So she was pregnant for most of their marriage. And Robert Schumann went into what was then called an insane asylum at Andernich because he tried to take his own life. And she lived many, many years after his death as his widow, but still performing and providing for these children. So, yes, she's, would you agree, Harriet, she's superwoman?

She's certainly superwoman, yes. You're the voice of Clara in this concert, Harriet, she's superwoman? She's certainly superwoman, yes. You're the voice of Clara in this concert, Harriet, reading some of the words of the woman herself alongside Lucy. You're going to play piano. We're going to get a taste of it in a moment. Just going to keep you all hanging a little bit longer. What was she like? What did she like to play?

I find her fascinating because from a very early time in her childhood, she seems to have known what great music was. And she composed things aged eight, you know, she was already composing. Her father absolutely drilled her. And there are all sorts of sliding doors, like if her father and mother hadn't split, would her mother have made her more of a little lady? Her father kind of trained her almost like a bones and has a sort of, she can distinguish great from the ordinary. So she always played the great composers and knew what they wanted and knew what they were. And that kind of, that drove her. That is who she is. I mean, she says of herself, music is her life.

It's her temple it's her religion but she was also a very human mother and wife and you know all of those things as well um well we're going to have a flavor of iClara now uh Lucy you're going to be playing piano here in the studio but we're going to start with you reading something Harriet? Shall we just, if you both want to go and make your way to the various instruments and the microphone and in your own time, delighted to say, now we have Lucy and Harriet

giving us a flavour of iClara. In our early years, whilst composing together, Robert and I often shared musical ideas, codes and themes. Composing always gave me great pleasure. I once believed that I possessed creative talent, but I gave up this idea. I knew that a woman must not desire to compose. There had never yet been one able to do it. Should I have expected to be the one? موسیقی در موسیقی درسته Thank you. موسیقی در موسیقی درسته Thank you. Musik Magnificent.

Come on over. That was so beautiful. Sometimes I just have to pinch myself to remind myself this is actually happening in my life. A very sad piece though, wasn't it? It was very melancholy. Very melancholy. And I think you can tell by that piece a lot about her as a person. It's a very deep and thoughtful piece.

It was romance in E flat minor. What else do we hear in I, Clara? What else do you play? Oh, well, as Harriet mentioned, she started composing when she was eight years old. So we have a little Polonaise that she played for paganini when he visited her and um but there's also apart from um a fair amount of her music there's music by the people she loved and who visited her in her house and mendelssohn and list and she played for chopin when she was only 13 so we have it's a lot of lovely and a lot of love who was a big feature in her life. And Harriet, we see in Clara's diaries and letters how devoted she was to her husband, Robert.

But he sometimes struggled with the fame and attention she received, didn't he? Yes, I mean, it was difficult for him. You know, she, as Lucy says, was far more famous in their lifetimes than he was. And had she not championed him, who knows whether we would have known so much about him, you know. But she knew his work was great. She put him up with Mozart and Beethoven, you know, she thought he was up there with those two. But he didn't do the same for her? Well, he couldn't really, could he? I mean, as you heard in that little extract, it was the current thinking. A woman didn't compose, even though you've just heard that she did.

The conflict, the conflict of this creative. And this creative, she obviously, sorry to be cliche, but she had eight children. So where does that creative drive go when you're looking after eight children and touring at the same time to earn the money to keep those eight children? And as she wanted to do to keep her husband free from, you know, having to earn the money to keep those eight children and as she wanted to do, to keep her husband free from having to earn money. So he felt that kind of very natural feeling that men did of, you know, I'm not earning the money and my wife is. There's a lovely story, isn't there?

Oh, yeah, there's a story about how they were approached when she was touring and he was with her and somebody in the audience said, does Mr Schumann play too? Brilliant. What a perfect way to end a Friday's Woman's Hour on that quote. What a joy it's been to speak to you,

both Lucy Parham and Dame Harriet Walters. Thank you. You'll be performing iClar at the Wigmore Hall on Sunday, the 2nd of June. I will be back tomorrow with Weekend Woman's Hour. Just a clarification on the statistics Caris gave us earlier in the programme. She was referring to information from NHS genetic counsellors

to assess Caris's chances of developing breast cancer should she have inherited the gene variant. Her risk of developing by the age of 30, they suggested, could be 1.9% with the gene and 0.1% without. And also, I must mention, Monday's Bank Holiday Woman's Hour is all about muses. You won't want to miss it. Have a lovely weekend. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again

next time. I'm Dr Michael Moseley and I want to let you know about my new immersive BBC Radio 4 podcast series, Deep Calm. It's all about how to tap into and activate a remarkable system that we all have hardwired inside of us, our relaxation response. And it's been developed to be listened to at any time you want to really unwind. We'll discover simple, powerful, scientifically proven techniques to activate this relaxation response and encounter incredible mechanisms

that work to help you rest, restore and find stillness. From the breath to the fractal patterns of nature. I hope you'll subscribe on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven of nature. I hope you'll subscribe on BBC Sounds. I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.