Woman's Hour - Infected blood scandal, Anita Pallenberg, Feminist theatre

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

The long awaited final report of the public inquiry into the infected blood scandal is published today, The inquiry was announced in 2017 after years of campaigning by victims. From the 1970s to the early 1990s, approximately 30,000 people were infected with blood contaminated with HIV and Hepatitis C. Over 3,000 have since died, with one person estimated to die every four days in the UK. The affected groups include those who received infected blood via blood transfusions, such as women following childbirth, and individuals with haemophilia—predominantly males—and others with similar bleeding disorders who received contaminated blood products. Around 1,250 people with bleeding disorders, including 380 children were infected with HIV. Fewer than 250 are still alive today. Some transmitted HIV to their partners. Nuala McGovern speaks to Clair Walton, who gave evidence to the inquiry. She has been campaigning for years for the wives and partners who became infected to be heard and acknowledged.Anita Pallenberg was the quintessential 1960s Rock and Roll 'It' girl. A model, actress and artist, she is best remembered as a muse for The Rolling Stones. But a new film about her life, Catching Fire: The Story Of Anita Pallenberg, puts her experiences front and centre and explores her unique creativity and her influence on the sound and swagger of The Stones. Her son Marlon Richards, who is an executive producer on the film, tells Nuala about her wild and intense life.The book Feminist Theatre – Then and Now brings to life the lived experiences of three generations of women working in British theatre over the last 50 years and reveals the struggle to succeed in an industry where gender, race, sexuality, class and parenthood were, and still can be, serious obstacles to success. Nuala is joined by the book’s editor Cheryl Robson and a contributor, the playwright Moira Buffini.Mary Morton has built up an army of 'street stitchers' - volunteers who sit in the parks and streets of Edinburgh and offer to advise on repairing the clothes of passers-by. Mary has not bought clothes for five years after becoming concerned about the impact of textiles on the environment and wants to teach people the skills to be able to repair and continue to wear their clothes. She joins Nuala.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, in a moment, an interview with a woman who has, in her words, been traumatised by the infected blood scandal. Due to it, her husband died of AIDS and she has HIV. Clare's story is coming up in advance of the release of the final report of the public

inquiry. And feminist theatre turns 50, which is an achievement. But how is it defined and what is there still left to do? I'll be speaking to my guests in studio this hour. We'll also be in Edinburgh to hear about the street stitchers, the antithesis

to fast fashion, repairing and restitching on park benches in the city. And also what was it like to have Anita Pallenberg, the actress, model, style icon and at times heroin addict as your mother. We're going to speak

to her son this hour. You can text the programme, the number is 84844. And anything you hear in our discussions on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour or a WhatsApp message or voice note. That number is 03 700 100 444. But as I mentioned, the long-awaited final report

of the public inquiry into the infected blood scandal will be published later today. Now, the inquiry was announced in 2017. This was after years of campaigning by victims and their families. It's chaired by Sir Brian Langstaff. The inquiry will investigate the systemic failures over why men, women and children were given blood and blood products that were infected with HIV and hepatitis C and this was from the 1970s through to the early 90s.

Approximately 30,000 people were infected, more than 3,000 have died, and one person is estimated to die every four days in the UK. Those affected received infected blood via transfusion, such as women following childbirth, for example, or people with haemophilia, that was predominantly males, and others with bleeding disorders who received contaminated blood products. Around 1,250 people with bleeding disorders, including 380 children, were infected with HIV. Fewer than 250 of them are still alive today. Some transmitted HIV to their partners. Clare Walton gave evidence to the inquiry,

and she has been campaigning for years for the wives and partners of those who became infected, and she wants them to be heard and acknowledged. I spoke to her a little earlier this morning. I began by asking Clare about how she was feeling about the release of this report. A huge anticipation about what's about to be revealed to the greater public. Of course, we know what's been going on for the last 40 years.

But it'll be interesting to hear directly from Sir Brian Langstaff, who's going to be reporting on what he's been investigating for the last six years. Because this is about the truth. Sir Brian Langstaff has spent millions, this is millions of pounds of public money, trying to get to the bottom of a scandal that should have been dealt with when it happened. And it's decimated people's lives, not just because of what happened, not because of the infected blood products, in my case with my husband who was a haemophiliac. This has been going on in my life for 40 years. But it could have been dealt with. And on top of that, we've then got the whole many, many years

of the cover-up of the way we were treated, which is part of the investigation as well, is how governments reacted. And I'm bothered because of the way we have been treated in the past, whether the cover-up will just cover up again. So you're concerned? Yeah. We may have our day today. Today will be the day when the news is there, the press is there, the media, the public are being, some for the first time, really understanding what went on.

But then it's kind of where will we be in a year's time? Let's go back five years to 2019. You were one of the first to give evidence to the inquiry then. What was your thinking behind that? It was really important that I, as someone who was infected through their husband, was acknowledged and the evidence was put into the public domain. Because until that time, and and still when the scandal is mentioned we hear there's 1253 hemophiliacs were infected with HIV and also they also would have

had hepatitis c it turned out as well but you don't hear that of that many wives were infected we just don't get that figure and in fact there was a there was a press release that went out at of that, many wives were infected. We just don't get that figure. And in fact, there was a press release that went out at the time with one of the lawyers I was with at that time. I'm not with them now. But they put a press release out saying 1,253 haemophiliacs were infected with HIV and HIV went on to develop AIDS. There's only sort of a couple of, whatever it was,

about 200 or 300 that were left alive at that time. More have died since. And I said, you've not mentioned the fact that wives were infected. And we knew a figure roughly of about 70 wives. But again, we haven't really got the proper figures. And I was told it's a press release and you have to make a press release snappy and I said is not the deaths of 31 women which was a figure I knew at that time snappy enough

and that's where my whole feeling and I'm still watching it this morning as I watch the tv We talk about 1,253 haemophiliacs were infected or over 1,200, 300 of which were children. It's terrible. But not mention the fact that the wives. Can we speak about your story, Clare? Your husband, as you've mentioned, had the blood disorder haemophilia. You got married young and when you were 23. And then a couple of years later, he was told that he had HIV, the AIDS virus. That's how it was put to you back then. What was he told about how he contracted it and the prognosis?

He was told it's through the blood product factor eight but he was told that's how it because by that time um it was beginning to be known i was actually 21 when i got married um and yes so it was 1983 in fact tomorrow would have been our 41st wedding anniversary and so that's i'm saying so in, we started to hear the rumours of AIDS, but we sort of don't worry about it. But by early 1985, he was called into the hospital for his haemophilia care. And he was given that prognosis that he, well, the diagnosis that he'd been given, what was known then as the AIDS virus, it was HDLV3, it wasn't even called HIV. That's correct, actually. Yes, indeed. And then he, and he was told you've got probably two or three years left to live.

And that was it. It was it. But you were so young. How did both of you cope at that time? What do you remember of it? We were just stunned. We didn't have any support. We were just basically, you know, there's a, you know, as I've said before

here's a diagnosis. Here's the prognosis. Off you go. Bye. It was, there was nothing, there was no follow up. There was no aftercare. And this is the thing that I've discovered through the inquiry, which was quite shocking, is that people have asked us what counselling did we get? What was the support? You know, today, you know, you've been given this devastating news.

I was 23, he was 26. And people have asked us over the years, you know, what counselling did we get? This was the 80s, people didn't get counselling. The way we have been treated has been appalling. You were caring for him, your husband, then two years later in 1987, through him, you also tested positive for HIV, as I understand it. But it was your husband who told you the news? Can you explain that to us?

Yeah, we'd been testing. As I said, it's in the evidence I gave at the inquiry. We'd been testing, they'd been testing me. And we decided we couldn't cope. We just took off on a holiday that we really couldn't afford. On the flight, on the way over, flying over the Atlantic, I turned to Brian, my husband, and I said, you know, I never got the results of the test. And he said, oh, yes, I told him they told him and not me why again we're talking this is 19 this is the way we were treated it's a very but i have so many questions

about that i mean in the fact that it went to him instead of to you just even thinking privacy medical concerns but also just on a personal level you've got the rest of that flight yes with your husband brian to try and understand what this means trying to understand what's happened to me over the years it's been trauma on trauma on top of trauma um and again you you you asked me why i gave evidence at the inquiry yes one of the things is to have this acknowledged that that my what happened to my husband you know ultimately he he was the people who died in this have been the ones that have suffered the most clearly people who have the to watch the pain that they went through to to have those early years of

what dying of aids um and then also also as a what we're known as concordant couple in that both of us are infected there's a different dynamic he was really worried about me as he in his last part of his life and he stood with me in the kitchen he said I'm really worried about you and I'm you know what's going to happen to you when I die because he knew he was dying and and I said to him I'll be all right you know and i think i to this day i don't know if i was just just wanting to help and he died within that week i think he needed permission to kind of go but out of that so he was worried about me i was worried about him so my my own health wasn't being um tended to or cared for um but out of that then it's how we were treated as a widow within the system how we were

not supported and and that's part of what I'm hoping Sir Ryan will report on. And your husband Brian he died at just the age of 34 in 1993 so we are 31 years since that happened and I'm so sorry for your loss but I do remember that time really through the 80s and 90s it was a time when I was growing up as well there were ads that were terrifying about AIDS they were you know, in public spaces. They showed tombstones, for example. They talked about it being a deadly disease. There was so much stigma around it. How was it trying to live through that,

care for your husband, while also knowing you have the virus yourself? I think we just shut down. We shut ourselves in. We shut ourselves away from society. I mean, we didn't go on to... That's it. I mean, one of the worst things, I didn't have children.

We really wanted to have a family. So I have no family. That's another big worry. But at the time and over the years, it was the silencing and not being able to talk to it that actually traumatised and made me very different, basically dehumanised us. Another reason for giving evidence is for people to realise just how badly, how appallingly a group of people were treated. How society would look upon people with HIV. People were losing their jobs. People were not getting the support they really, really needed.

Discrimination. That was really, really difficult. Really, really difficult time. But for myself to cope with that, I often thought, how did I cope? Yes, yes, that's what I'm wondering. How on earth did I cope? But I worked in archives and I spent my life in a very quiet world. And I worked very much alone. I studied with the Open University on my own as well. And I lived alone after my husband had died. And I think I just went into myself.

And so I find it very difficult to be amongst what I might call ordinary people that have families. You know, people of my age, they'd be talking about their grandchildren. You know, I never had children. I never watched them go off to university. And that's sad, but you can't... It's sad, it's a terrible thing that I've been denied. And also my potential, my career has been, you know, very marred, although I carried on for quite a while.

It's been dreadfully marred. And whilst I watch people actually make careers out of us, I mean, that's quite vulgar to sort of to find that we, you know, those of us that are infected have been denied so much. Were you able to tell people at the time? No, no, no. And it's probably why I still don't to this day. You know, there will be people listening to this radio thinking, oh, my God. You know, because, again, I gave evidence. There was a sort of shower of publicity around that.

And afterwards, I had a note through my door from a former colleague and said it was a really sweet note. He said, we just didn't know and kind of praising me for my courage and that's I think I'm beginning to understand about myself now it's the amazing sort of we've been dehumanised as people with HIV we've been as a community within the haemophilia community really terribly.

But I'm actually beginning to sort of realise just how I've survived that. Where do you lay the blame? Pharmaceutical companies for the profit that they were using the haemophilia community as a commodity. They're a commodity to be used to their blood, the blood products that they were importing and using. And then for governments, and I'm talking successive governments, you know, who could have dealt with this, who allowed it to happen so that the blood became infected.

And then the blame, what happened afterwards. So it's about what happened and then how they dealt with it because this could have been hands up sorry fess up we did wrong let's let's support this group of people that we have we have harmed so when the knowledge became more comprehensive or a level of ignorance about hiv aids hemophilia had dropped away or an understanding of exactly what had been covered up, you felt people could have acted quicker? Oh, yes. As I say, this is for Sir Brian to report on.

But from what I've seen and why we firmly lay the blame on the state, the state harmed us, right? It harmed us. What it knew when and how, it goes beyond that because once they knew, and once people had become infected as well, what did they do?

Why did they keep covering it up? Why didn't they just kind of say, you know, yeah. It's been said that the funding pot to compensate people affected by the scandal could be more than $10 billion. In 2022, following advice from the inquiry, the government made interim payments of £100,000 each to a few thousand surviving victims and bereaved partners. And I believe you were one of them. Did that help you? Well, for a start, I question this because it said that it would make payments to all infected and all bereaved.

I've not had a payment for my husband. I didn't get that. I didn't get an interim payment. He's not been recognised as part of the death because of the way they gave out that interim payment. But the payment I got, presumably for myself, has been useful. It's enabled me to make repairs to my home, give me some sort of help. But it doesn't pay back the decades, decades of loss in terms of financial. How would you calculate that, Clare? Have you thought about that? I've thought about it. I've lost my husband i lost him as a as a and i lost our life together i lost i've been scraping you know going out to work in the past scraping to to keep a roof over my head which was another reason I gave evidence, that's all in there.

There are ways of working this out, and that's in law, and we should be given that, what our losses are truly, and also about our health going forward. Because this isn't, again, going back to the people this is about, which is the commodity, is which are infected people people are infected so the money nobody talks about their ongoing health care needs you know and also we're now talking about people dying you know now it was mentioned you know two, I heard, this morning. And I ask, how were their last few months, their few years of their life,

did they get the health care they needed? So financially, we need a package that will make sure that we are put back and have the health care that we need going forward for the rest of our lives and social care. As someone who has lost so much and has also a very uncertain future because we don't know about comorbidities that exist and what health care needs I will need in the future, I've always pushed for individual assessment. Now, there's a counter-argument to that,

to say, oh, well, we need this swiftly moving on. These things can be swiftly moved on, but also to acknowledge the very different levels of loss and need. On compensation, also expected to be announced would be possibly extending compensation to children who've lost parents and the parents who have children. Do you think that's the right thing to do? For me it's about the infected. It's about their loss, their loss and if they had children and those children suffered for it, that's one thing, yes.

And I can understand why that's been included, if the children have suffered. What I'm concentrating on is the infected. And I think I'm hearing a lot from people, it's almost becoming that it's not about the infected anymore. And it's really important. Today, of all days, we talk about infected people this infected people and the people who have suffered the people who really need to be focused on are those that

have died and those that are still living with infection now that's the concentration for me and that's probably because of my own particular set of circumstances. That week that Brian died, you said you'll be okay. Are you okay? As I say, I've been traumatized by this and I've also, I was getting on with my life, but I'm looking back now and thinking of the things that I've masked because I've sort of come as somebody who tries to deal with things. I'm a very creative person. I want to find solutions and I try to be as positive as I can. But I'm dealing with immense trauma and this inquiry has traumatised me,

totally traumatised me. I'm not looking forward to going to the hall today um it's traumatized me although when i gave evidence there was a certain amount of cathartic yeah what's the word it was cathartic cathartic yeah yeah sorry yeah um it was the day i gave evidence it was really really like i'd shed a skin. But that was five years ago and I thought I'd be able to move on, but I'm still waiting another five years. You know, I gave evidence five years ago on May the 2nd, 2019.

What do you think Brian would think of you doing this interview today? Do you know what? He'd be really proud. Claire, there are reports that the Prime Minister could possibly make an apology later this afternoon. What does that mean to you?

If it's genuine, then it will be welcome. But we also need an apology from every Prime Minister since this happened. Unfortunately, Margaret Thatcher, but we still have John Major's watch, Tony Blair's watch, Gordon Brown's watch, David Cameron, Theresa May, who actually did set up the inquiry. She began. And Boris Johnson, Liz Truss, Ricky. And Rishi Sunak. We have all those prime ministers. We need a genuine and profuse apology.

That was Clare Walton who gave evidence to the inquiry. Thanks very much to her for speaking to us. We are expecting the full report from the Infected Blood Inquiry at 12.30 today and you can listen to The World at One for coverage of Sir Brian Langstaff's findings. Thank you also for getting in touch. 84844 is our text number. Anna Tex, I am the sister of a patient with haemophilia who died in 1990,

infected with all viruses through the Factor VIII treatment. I was a haemophilia doctor. The stories coming out reflect some of the monstrosity of what has happened all over the world. The relationship with doctors was very complex. Extended families have been devastated. Other countries dealt with compensation earlier. If you'd like to get in touch or you have some personal experience, you'd like to share 84844 or indeed at BBC Women's Hour on social media.

Now, do you have any clothing that needs mending? If you're like me, there's always some item that needs a few stitches, generally on a chair by the door. But what we need is the women's army that my guests have built up over the past two years. They are an army of street stitchers, volunteers who sit in the parks and on the streets of Edinburgh and offer to repair the clothes of passerbys. Mary Morton has not bought clothes for five years after becoming concerned about the impact of textiles on the environment and she wants to teach people the skills to be able to repair and continue to wear their clothes. And Mary joins me now. Welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you. So tell me a little bit more about this passion project of yours and bringing it to

the streets of Edinburgh. Well basically what we do is we go out on the streets or parks as you say we've found parks better because they're quieter and with a camping chair and a banner on the back that says stitch it don't ditch it and we don't actually repair clothing for people we engage with them and ask them if they want to learn how to do it themselves and we show them how to do it themselves so that they then have a skill which they can use in the future. So basically teaching a woman to fish to paraphrase in one way but how has the reaction been? I'm just wondering, you know,

if somebody, you know, was approached in a park and told, you know, let's give it a go. Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, we're sitting in our camping chairs so the public are passing by. So if they don't want to engage, they just continue to pass. But, you know, very often we approach them

by, you know, saying, you know very often we approach them by you know saying you know do you sew and and if the answer is yes then we engage with them about what kind of sewing and and talk about the the climate and environmental impact of textiles and if they say no but I'd like to which is actually a very common reply then that's the ideal situation for us and we either you know show them well obviously we're doing our mending while while we're sitting there so we show them what we're doing and and you know sometimes we'll encourage them to sew on a button on a scrap piece of fabric and or we sometimes send out kind of media beforehand to say, bring something to repair and people bring a garment along. And then the sewing volunteers provide advice about how to do that repair.

And very often it's just the getting started. I think a lot of people are really concerned about, you know, I can't do it. So it's that first step in picking up a needle and being shown the easy way to thread it and just getting started. That's pretty interesting. You know, I was subjected, might be the word, to sewing and knitting classes when I was a kid. I wasn't very good, but I can sew a button and at a push, maybe do a hem. What do you find people want to do most? What are the little repairs that are coming into you?

I suppose that the thing that we find most when we, many of the street stitchers are also volunteers with the Shrub Co-op, which is a zero waste charity based in Edinburgh. And we run sewing sessions twice a week. And the most common repair that comes in there is people who, the backside has come out with their jeans. And that's certainly the most common repair. That sounds complicated. It's actually not too bad.

There's a website which is www.repairwhatyouwear.com. And on there, you'll find videos of, you know, the basics, how to start from the very beginning. But then there's also videos of common repairs and how to tackle them. And Ros talks you through it really simply. And it's very straightforward in terms of the visuals and easy. Easy for you and hopefully getting easier for others as well. But I did talk about a women's army. Is it all women that are with you, Mary? I think we do have a couple of blokes as well, but I can't remember them having been out.

The way that it works is I have a WhatsApp list and when there's an opportunity to go out, I send a message around the WhatsApp list and whoever is available says, oh, I can come, I can come i can come um and so we usually have you know half a dozen or so people so uh so that works out well because it means that people can engage when they're free and they don't have to be there every time and those that are that come to you shall we say that want to learn more are is it mainly women or are there men in that cohort

as well well to give you an example um sunday we have a yesterday we had a sewing session and there was three male people there and 12 all together so yeah so you have a you have a a minority of men that are also coming. But you are a former pharmacist, is my understanding. Yeah. Were you brought up learning those skills? My grandmother was a seamstress and, sorry, a tailoress, although she never worked as such.

But she taught me a bit when I was little. But I was fascinated with her treadle sewing machine and you know things like that so um I did do a bit of sewing when I was younger and then as a teenager I got into dressmaking and because in those days it was actually cheaper to sew things than it was to buy them from the boutique and also if you went to a boutique there were a few of them around so there was a fair chance also if you went to a boutique, there were a few of them around. So there was a fair chance that when you went to the school dance, somebody else would be there in the same dress.

And I didn't like that. I wanted to have my individual approach. So, you know, so dressmaking is the way to go, you know, for that. If you want to be individual, that allows you to. And I'm thinking about these individuals like yourself that are on a park bench what's the trickiest thing you've managed to mend in a scottish park oh my goodness that is a really difficult question um

i have got no idea um i mean, the jeans sounded complicated to me. You're saying it's not. It's not too bad. You just stick a patch on it and then do a running stitch back and forward. So that would be perfectly achievable in a park. But usually it's relatively simple things. I suppose one of the things that we get quite often is socks

because they're very portable um and you know and and you don't need a fancy um darning mushroom for for doing socks you can use you know an orange or the thing that I carry in my kit is a jam jar lid um covered in masking tape and that that does perfectly well as well so so my understanding is you haven't bought clothes for five years do you do you miss it not at all actually it I originally started it was a three month kind of challenge thing and I thought oh I cannot buy clothes for three months and then once I got started I was quite like you know I imagine everybody's the same you've got a wardrobe full of clothes and you will never wear half of them in fact probably less than half of them and so I I did what they call um shopping in my own wardrobe so what I did was I put I put a whole

lot of things aside um you know if there were kind of like doublers of you know if I had two t-shirts that were very similar I would put one aside so that then gives me the opportunity that if I feel like something fresh I can go and rake in the stuff that I've put aside for a rest so and I do do charity shop shopping and that that's where i i access you know textiles for making new things um and so also forgive me for stepping in and you but if our our listeners want to find you be part of your army or indeed find you to get something mended how do they do that and we're easiest way is through our Instagram account, which is Edinburgh Street Stitchers.

But if you can't find me there, then through the Shrub Co-op, which I have an email address. I don't know if it's sensible to give out an email address. That's all right. We can take it off air and they will find you indeed on social media. Mary Morton, thank you so much

for spending a little time with us on Woman's Hour. Thank you. See, now when you look at that hem, you'll be inspired. Fix it or put that button back on that shirt. Thanks to you getting in touch.

84844 is our number to text us. Janet's got in touch. She says, Clare had me in tears this morning. That's on the infected blood scandal. Also, another, this is from Laura. She says,

I'm a regular listener to Woman's Hour. That was one of the most powerful and eloquent interviews I've heard from Clare about the infected blood scandal. I work in healthcare. I find this one of the most appalling medical disasters of modern times.

While her husband would be devastated to know what she has suffered, he would surely be so proud to hear her speak so eloquently today. What a brave lady who had clearly suffered so much. 84844, thank you. Many of you getting in touch in response to our first interview this morning on

Woman's Hour. I'll turn to Anita Pallenberg next. She was the quintessential 1960s rock and roll it girl. She was a model, She was an actress. She was an artist. She maybe has been best It's called Catching Fire, the story of Anita Pallenberg. And it depicts her not just as an inspiration for the Stones, but also as a complex woman who was creative in her own right. There's interviews of friends and family. There's this extensive archive of tour footage and home movies. And the film really puts her experiences front and centre. It also explores her creativity and, you know, how she shaped the sound

and the swagger of the Stones. Well, Anita Pallenberg's son, Marlon Richards, is an executive producer on the film and joins me now. Great to have you with us, Marlon. You were named after Marlon Brando, I understand. Yes, I was, yes. And I'd like to say thank you so much for having me.

I'm an avid listener of your show. We're so delighted to have you. I was. Yes. And I'd like to say thank you so much for having me. I'm an avid listener of your show. We're so delighted to have you. I watched the film. I have to say I was riveted by it. She seemed to be a mesmerizing presence, your mother. Yeah, she was definitely larger than life in some ways. I mean, very vibrant and always had a smile on her face, I guess, to mask some of the darker elements of her life. But yes, she definitely brought light to the room. We will talk about all those aspects of light and shade, Marlon. But with this film, it does give us a window into this sexist world of the 60s music industry.

And your mother, Anita, being one of the few women at the heart of it. Yes. Give us a little bit about your reasons about why you wanted this film to be made. Well, the simple fact is we had no intention of making a film at all until

we'd found her box of tapes that she'd done and interviews when we were cleaning out her flat when she passed away. It was my son who found them. 13 hours, I believe, of taped interviews done in the mid-90s, when in actual fact she said she would never do an autobiography of any sort or no interest in that sort of thing. But obviously she had every intention of leaving it for us to do in the end. So that is the primary reason we did it. We unfortunately weren't able to use her voice during the documentary because the tapes were rather muddy.

But luckily, they were all transcribed. So we had all of her interviews. So you're convinced she wanted you to find it? I think she did. I know her well enough that if she didn't, they wouldn't be there. You know, it was a very wild and intense life that she appeared to have looking at the documentary. And incredible that you had so much footage as well, which we could talk about. But she also went through periods when she was addicted to heroin.

And there's a lot of footage of you, Marlon, as a kid, probably anywhere between four and eight, I think, in particular. And anyone watching has to feel for that little boy in the middle of it. How did it feel for you? What do you remember of that time? Very little before the age of like four or five. But I mean, to me, it seemed all very normal. I mean, I had no idea that other children

fly around the world and, you know, do all sorts of things like that until I settled down and realised how absolutely insane it kind of was. I mean we moved constantly from country to country a great deal never really at one place at one time for very long and it wasn't until I was about eight or nine that I actually settled down um and lived the mundane life that I kind of enjoy yes and at that point how was Anita uh she was quite a And at that point, how was Anita? She was quite a mess by that point because her and my father had split up

and we were living in upstate New York and she was pretty much beholden to the Rolling Stones organization in a way, I suppose. She had no work. She was isolating herself. She was very angry, quite bitter, I believe, and descended into quite a bad, bad place. Yeah. And such a contrast to, I suppose, what we'd see is the swinging 60s at time, which seemed to be so upbeat in a lot of, I suppose, what people would have expected from her life it changed drastically but you had like a lot of knocks i felt as a kid you had a younger brother tara who died at three months of age your sister grew up separated from you

and was raised by your grandmother due to the unstable lifestyle in your home um how did that affect your family and relationships, particularly with your sister? Well, yeah, we didn't. I mean, I was given a completely different education. And for quite a while, I had an American accent until I was in my mid to late teens, until I kind of moved back to the UK. We saw each other, but usually at holidays. I mean, she always thought best that she stay with my grandmother since she'd been with her for quite a while by that point. And just to maintain the stability that she stay with my grandmother since she'd been with her for quite a while by that point and just to maintain the stability that she had and my grandmother enjoyed having her and vice versa. I was older I was more used to the sort of lifestyle and so I was able better to deal with the sort of you know the separation the moving around and so on so forth so.

Better deal with it though but you were just a. I did see that you were often expected to be the man of the house. Yeah, I suppose so. But, I mean, there were a lot of children, I mean, I know a lot of children who I went to school with who were like sort of what they call latchkey kids who are sort of, you know, they come home, their parents are working and they make themselves supper, et cetera, et cetera.

I mean, I did have a parent home most of the time, but unfortunately some of the time she was not really a parent. So, yeah, I mean, it was difficult, I suppose, but I never really saw it as unseemly so. I saw other people, other children I knew, friends of mine who had much more bizarre upbringings in a way, usually their parents were bankers. I understand that there's, you know, no hierarchy with it, so to speak, when it comes to the childhood. But I'm wondering now, because particularly at the end, the film is called Catching Fire.

Her words that are voiced up, they talk about going through a cleansing of fires, which was like all the ups and downs, the roller coaster of her life, but that the fires ultimately brought her to a greater place. But I was thinking about you, Marlon, at that point. I was like, you had to endure those fires, perhaps being collateral damage in some ways. I don't know whether you see it like that,

but whether you were angry at her. For quite a while as a teen, I mean, you're generally, you know, quite angry in some way. Your parents, I think, teenage rebellion and such. Yes, I was. In my mid-teens, I refused to kind of see her for quite a while. I lived in New York, in Long Island, in New York, with my paternal grandfather. Ironically enough, my York, with my paternal grandfather. Ironically enough, my sister living with my paternal grandmother. But they'd been divorced for a very long time anyway. So I lived with him in Long Island and attended school. And by that point, my mother was already back in England.

She'd broken her hip around 1984, 85. And I think that set her on the road to recovery. And then over the period of the next decade, she made amends in a way and she cleaned herself up. She definitely made an effort to sort of mend, to kind of be a better person, not just to me, but to my sister. And she offered all of her regrets. And yeah, we were on very good terms

for the last part of her life. And you accepted. She really did go back and get a degree, recreated herself. And I know as part of her legacy, Kate Moss is in the film explaining how Anita always inspired her style. Basically with Kate Moss,

she was speaking about basically that Anita was who she wanted to be when it came to the way she dressed. And also the Stones were often known as the best dressed band, particularly Keith Richards. But Keith was really wearing her clothes. Yeah, I mean, there's a quite a one of the stage outfits was a sort of like satin blouse. And I remember seeing Anita wearing that initially, like that was hers. And yeah, they would swap clothes. I mean, there was like one big suitcase and he'd be diving into it.

And so would she, basically. And they were luckily the same size for quite a while. So yeah, she definitely shared a great deal of clothing. She would often, on later life, bring items of clothing to him on tour and force him to wear them. And he would put them on on stage. So she was always in that realm, yes. But do you think, did she feel vindicated in the sense that she was such a creative force within the Stones? I think she would hate it to be known as any other, really, for her association primarily with the Stones.

I think she'd rather be known for her own style, but she obviously is not beyond knowing that that's what she would be known as for the rest of her life. But I know she never wanted to be a muse to them at all. And she despised that idea, really. We're going to do a programme coming up next Bank Holiday Monday on muses, a special on that.

It is a tricky word and a tricky relationship at times. But what do you think she would like to be remembered as? I think more for her sartorial style and wit. And I mean, not really her acting either. She didn't really take acting seriously. It was something she just sort of fell into and fell out of. She didn't want to be an actress, really. She really wanted to be an archaeologist when she was young, and she kind of regretted not going into that. But she did get a degree in textile design at St. Martin's and afterwards dove full on into fashion where she was very much accepted by the fashion

people, by fashion people as opposed to the music crowd. And I think that's where her real love lay in later life, yeah. Yes, I did see with the Cape Moss as well that Anita very much thought that any plastic surgery was naff. That was something that she very much eschewed. Perhaps a little bit different

to some of the others in the fashion industry, but it's been so interesting. Really interesting film. Marlon Richards, thank you so much. Catching Fire. Thank you so much.

Thank you. The story of Anita Pallenberg is in selected UK cinemas now and will be available to watch on Apple TV. And as I mentioned, if you're into muses, you want to talk about that

a little bit more. That's Monday on the 25th of May. Thank you for all your messages that are coming in. A lot of response to Claire. Michael says, what a brave and lovely lady. I send a virtual hug. I've had my fair share of problems over the years. And she came across so genuine and calm, despite how society has treated her over the years.

They need to sort out the compensation and apologise to people like Claire. This is another, let me see it's oddly, in the late 80s I worked in a centre in London. The centre primarily supported gay men suffering from HIV and AIDS. There was no long term effective medication then available. This was 1988. I simply cannot

understand why this situation is only being resolved 36 years later. It's almost certain that a young man died as indeed did most of my patients. In 1988, three close friends died of AIDS in a climate of fear and discrimination which has been promoted by notorious

tombstone ads. All governments should be held responsible. 84844 if you want to get in touch or you want to respond to anything you've heard so far on Anita Pallenberg, indeed the stitching or to Clare who spoke to us about the infected blood scandal. Well

I have two guests in studio next As a dramatist, Moira Buffini is behind hit plays like Dinner and Handbag but along with the success also came Misogyny Early in her career a male friend once said she stood out because she, and I quote, wrote like a bloke.

Now, Moria's voice is one of many essential perspectives in a new book, Feminist Theatre Then and Now. It's compiled by the award-winning editor and writer Cheryl Robson. It's a vast collection of essays and interviews that celebrates three generations of women in theatre and the struggles for equality. Maybe not a shock to hear that women are underrepresented and underpaid. And even though theatre audiences, they're largely female, it is men who have most new plays commissioned.

Moira and Cheryl are both in the studio with me, as I mentioned. Good morning to you both. Good morning. Good morning. Moira, let me start with you. How would you define feminist theatre? Oh, that's such a good question. And what I love about the book... And I might get you to come up to the microphone just a little bit more. What I love about the book is that every single contributor in the book defines it differently.

And I think my favourite of those contributions in the book says that feminist theatre is a theatre that allows me to be fully human. And that only started then, Cheryl, 50 years ago? that feminist theatre is a theatre that allows me to be fully human. Just to be... And that only started then, Cheryl, 50 years ago? That you're allowed to be fully human? I mean, that's one definition. Well, women began with the first women's season in 1973 at the almost free theatre in Soho. And they wrote and produced the plays.

And the following year, that led to the first women's theatre companies, which were Monstrous Regiment Theatre Company and the Women's Theatre Group. And from there, feminist theatre developed and expanded, and many, many other companies grew up. And writers such as Carol Churchill, Louise Page, Briony Lavery, Amitaleen Wanda came to the fore. And Carol Churchill, you mentioned there, she was the Royal Court's first female playwright in residence in the 80s.

She wrote the award-winning Top Girls about what it meant to be successful, I feel that inverted commas, a woman in Margaret Thatcher's Britain. You went to see it at the time. What do you remember about that particular performance? Yes, I did go and see it at the court and I was bowled over by it because it was really two different plays meshed together. And the first half of it showed numerous important women at a dinner party. And the idea of time was completely kind of explored because there were women there from different ages who were all put together in

the same dinner party, as though nothing really had changed for women since the Middle Ages. Interesting. I'm just putting a comparison with your book. You have different women that are giving their perspectives, really, on what it has been like to grow up during that time and what else needs to happen. Moira, you were in drama school in the mid 80s. What were the challenges then of wanting to create feminist theatre? I didn't set out to create feminist theatre. I just set out to be a theatre maker.

And I think what I then made reflected who I was, I think, which was someone who has always sought a kind of voice and an autonomy and the things that you would define as feminist. I never set out to be a feminist theatre maker, but that is what I was. I think it's what we all were. But what about that comment that I mentioned at the top? A man responding to your work says,

you write plays like a bloke and I think the word bloke is kind of an interesting one as well but went on to say women don't write about priests and kings. Oh that was a different, not the same guys but yeah these were two formative things I think that I heard in the 90s and

it was actually a man who ran a very big theatre who said women the reason you know that women aren't writing the kind of plays we want was what he sort of meant by that, I think, in that women don't write plays about priests and kings. That's what he said. And yet, for two reasons, I took this to my heart and it made me furious because the play I had just written had a priest and a king in it.

Only the priest and the king were kind of the antagonists in the play. They were, they were, the play, I don't think he was aware of a woman's different gaze at the world. And I think there were a sort of legion of gatekeepers then who were absolutely not aware of it. And the other thing I heard in the 90s as well, and this is from a literary manager, again, of a very big new writing theatre, oh, with women, the talent just isn't out there. And that was gutting. That was devastating to hear. And I think those gatekeepers, fortunately, have been retired and moved on. But some of that, as I can see from the younger contributors to the book,

is still kind of residual, is still kind of there, that we have to, you know, keep vigilant. And writing like a bloke? Writing like a bloke. Well, there we are. What does that mean? So and maybe somehow you managed to maneuver yourself, though, in an industry that was dominated by men. Yeah.

As many women must. So let us turn back to Cheryl. Is there equality for women in theatre now? No, far from it. And there's a great chapter in the book by Polly Kemp and Jennifer Tuckett, which shows the latest Women in Theatre survey, which refers to the fact that twice as many men as women are being commissioned to write plays. And only 6% of women felt that opportunities were improving

since the pandemic for them in theatre. And theatres have become more risk averse. Is that what's at the heart of it? I was wondering because everybody was worried about theatre during the pandemic, right, that the audiences wouldn't return. But the audiences did return and there are being plays commissioned. But you're saying still for less women and you think it's an aversion to risk at the heart of it? Well, that is what the theatres are saying, that they feel it's more risky to commission a woman than a man. Which, you know, there have been studies done, for example, of Broadway theatres, which show that plays by women sell 4,000 tickets a week more than plays by men. So it's really insubstantiated. It's interesting, though, if the bottom line isn't getting through, as you describe it,

what will to change the balance? Well, I think we have to have more women commissioning in the theatres. We have to have more women on boards. But how do you do that? Well, I think theatres have to have ways of making men go through unconscious bias training, for example. I think they have to have targets for equality. I think that they have to look at the pay gap, because a recent study found that women freelancers are earning 37% less than men in the theatre. There are many, many issues here where women are still being discriminated against and not achieving equality.

But you have, along with Jennifer Tuckett that you mentioned there in a prominent group of women working in theatre, you went to Arts Council England for a meeting. Some of these aspects you were looking for some movement on some of these key issues. So do you feel that in fact it might be moving in the right direction that you're getting? Yes we went along on March 20th for a meeting with the Arts Council and they said they would listen carefully to what we had said and try and make some changes. One of which is that they have now included childcare as something you can apply for funding for in a grant application. The question is, you know, why was that not included many, many years ago?

Other things that they are saying they will consider is a gender advisory board. Well, we already have one for race and disability. So again, why were women not included? They're really interesting proposals. But I'm wondering, why do you think, because I know many women in theatre have gone to other areas of the arts, creative areas, it could be radio or publishing

or whatever it may be. Why is the theatre so slow compared to other sectors? That's a really good question. And the answer, you know, I choose to answer that by saying, you know, why do women keep coming back to theatre? Why do we keep wanting to work there? And it is because theatre really is such a positive crucible. It's a live performance space where change is possible, where we can explore different stories. And yes, I think the kind of change is really slow to come.

But I think I would remain on the positive side and say that, you know, we are part of a big fight that's been going on for 50 years. And we are telling of a big fight that's been going on for 50 years and and we are telling different stories now thank you so much for speaking to us amore ruffini and cheryl robson and on tomorrow's program we're going to take a look at a bbc documentary series exploring how new dna techniques are changing women's lives and margaret leng tang will perform live i'll speak to you at 10 that's all for today's woman's Hour. Join us again next time. OK, he's coming in underneath you. He was underneath us and that's when he came and rammed into our left wing.

A collision between a Chinese jet and an American spy plane. We flipped inverted and we're in an inverted dive with no nose, explosive decompression and severe problems. With relations between the West and China increasingly strained, what are the chances of things spinning out of control? The Western world was asleep and it's had a rude awakening. I'm Gordon Carrera. In Shadow War, China and the West, from BBC Radio 4,

I'll be exploring the friction in this most important of relationships and asking, has the West taken its eye off the ball? Well, unlike many of my colleagues, I don't talk about what's discussed around the Cabinet table. I'll be speaking to politicians, spies, dissidents and those caught up in the growing tension. You cannot ignore China. Listen on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.