Woman's Hour - Institutional Misogyny, Bullying in Parliament, Women Magicians

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Is the Police institutionally misogynistic? It's the question that's been raised now that a police WhatsApp group has come to light which Wayne Couzens was part of. It contained offensive messages. We also know that another police officer called PC David Carrick has been charged with rape. Plus there have been reports of 26 Metropolitan police officers committing sex crimes since 2016. Janet Hills, who's just retired as the Chair of the Metropolitan Black Police Association joins us to discuss, and we go to the Conservative Party Conference in Manchester to speak to MP Laura Farris.  We hear from Jenny McCullough who used to work as a clerk in The House of Commons. It was her dream job but she made complaints about Keith Vaz who used to be the Chair of Home Affairs Select Committee. Feeling bullied and undermined, she eventually resigned from her job but a fortnight ago a House of Common's Independent Expert Panel upheld her complaints. She explains why that's significant, both personally and for the culture of Parliament.The Magic Circle appointed its first female president last week: the first in its 116 year history. But who are the women who paved the way? Academic and magician Dr Naomi Paxton shares the stories of female magicians throughout history and reflects on the challenges facing them today.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. As the country continues to reel from the sentencing of a working police officer falsely arresting, kidnapping, raping and murdering a woman, Sarah Everard, off the streets, senior figures, including the former Met Commissioner, Lord Blair, have described this as a Soham moment, comparing the murder of Sarah Everard by a Met police officer

to the overhaul of childcare vetting that followed the murders of Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman by the school caretaker Ian Huntley in Soham, Cambridgeshire in 2002. There have been calls for an Everard inquiry, similar to that conducted by Sir William Macpherson in the wake of Stephen Lawrence's murder in 1993. That review eventually found the police to be institutionally racist. Over the weekend, women's campaign groups have accused the police of institutional sexism and questioned its response to violence against women and the low number of rape prosecutions. So far, the Prime Minister, who's been giving interviews at the

start of the annual Conservative Party conference in Manchester, has stopped short of calling for such an inquiry and has backed the Met Commissioner, Cressida Dick. But he did concede that the police are not taking reports of violence against women and girls seriously enough, calling it infuriating. Do you think Sarah Everard's murder should be such a moment for major police reform? Should such a review be commissioned? You'll hear from a retired Met police officer shortly. But I want to hear from you. You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged as always at your standard message rate.

On social media, you can get in touch with me with your take on this and how you are about this today and what you've reflected on perhaps over the weekend at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through our website. I should also add that this week, Woman's Hour, on Thursday to be precise, turns 75. We are a programme that has always and continues to prioritise the voices and experiences of women. What a week to be marking our birthday. I hope you'll join me, of course, on Thursday and throughout the rest of the week. Please continue to share this microphone with me and get in touch to have your say. We're all the better for it. Also on today's programme, speaking of Voices, an exclusive for you. Jenny McCulloch, previously a clerk in the House of Commons, speaks for the first time since an independent expert panel

upheld her complaints about the former Labour MP, Keith Vaz. And as a woman takes over the magic circle as the first female president in its 116-year history, who were the female magicians who paved the way? All to come on the programme. Stay with us for that. and 16-year history, who were the female magicians who paved the way? All to come on the programme. Stay with us for that. But to this question, are the police institutionally sexist? It's now believed that Sarah Everard's murderer, Wayne Cousins, was in a WhatsApp group with five other police officers

who were being investigated for gross misconduct. They allegedly shared discriminatory messages, including misogynistic content. Cousins raped and murdered Sarah Everard while working for the Met after kidnapping her in a fake arrest. He has been sentenced to a whole life prison term. The London force faces questions over whether it missed chances to stop him. In fact, we talked about vetting procedures with Zoe Billingham, who's the outgoing senior inspector at Her Majesty's Inspectorate Constabulary. You can catch that interview from Thursday's programme on BBC Sounds. Wayne Cousins had been linked to two previous allegations of indecent exposure.

This morning, we learned that a Metropolitan Police officer has been charged with rape. PC David Carrick was off duty at the time of the alleged offence on the 4th of September last year in St Albans. Dame Cressida Dick has said she's deeply concerned at the news and a referral has been made to the police watchdog. An investigation by the Sunday Mirror yesterday revealed that 26 Metropolitan Police officers have committed sex crimes since 2016. Offences included rape and possessing indecent images of children. Two officers were jailed in April, a month after cousins raped and killed Sarah Everard. And add to that a front page Daily Mail investigation today, which shows that nearly a thousand police officers and staff have been probed for posting disturbing content.

In a moment, I'll be talking to a Conservative MP, but first I'm joined by Janet Hills, newly retired chair of the Metropolitan Black Police Association. She spent 30 years with the Met, rising to sergeant in Brixton. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for being with us today. I wanted to start by asking, in light of quite a few with us today. I wanted to start by asking in light of quite a few different stories there that we wanted to bring together to paint a full picture, as full picture as we can for our listeners. Do you believe that culturally there is a problem in the police when it comes to women? Yes, I do. And the reason why I say that is that we need to do more internally. We need to do more internally and we need to engage our communities more because we cannot do this on our own. We

cannot police ourselves out of this issue. We need to bring on board the communities that these events impact on. And we need to have those conversations. We need to understand what it is to walk in their shoes in order to be able to identify the problem and therefore deal with the problem. So the fact that they're calling for a review, I think is absolutely spot on. They should be a review because we cannot do this on our own.

The advice that was given last week around, you know, flagging down a bus or using your phone is not credible advice. You're talking just to remind people of this was some of the advice that the Met put out. If you were as a woman stopped or in a position where you were speaking to a male police officer on his own? Absolutely. It's not credible because if you are an operational police officer, if someone starts to do that, what you see is them obstructing you in the execution of your duty. So, you know, it wouldn't matter that you're saying, well, I'm scared or, you know, whatever reasons you're given. In terms of policing, that is seen as obstruction. But why is your form of force, do you think, saying stuff like that? And it's run by a woman.

That doesn't mean, you know, that woman bears accountability, I suppose, for absolutely everything. But you imagine she would be across this sort of response after this sort of situation. Because ultimately it's coming from within.'s not it's not being thought out in terms of asking the people that it's impacting for their view and therefore taking a measured response and and we do that often in terms of responding to things we we speak to the people closest to us our line managers or whatever else to deal with the problem. But the reality is, is that we need to we need to go out.

We need to bring people in to help us to solve the problem. But, you know, when you say it, it's coming from within and it as an issue. Are you saying sexism? What do you what do you mean by it? So I I'm talking about diversity as a whole. So it's not just gender, it's not just race, you know, it's not just disability, it's across the piece. All of those protected characteristics intersect with each other. And we need to get it right for everyone. And we don't, we tend to look at each individual protected characteristic in silos silos and therefore just deal with that one thing when really it intersects and cuts across all of the other protected characteristics.

The Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, was asked by my colleague Andrew Marr only yesterday if a male police officer stops a woman and asks her to follow his instructions, what should she do? Let's have a listen to what the Prime Minister had to say. I think people should trust the police. And it's very, very important that people should have confidence in our police. I think up and down the country, there will be literally hundreds of thousands of wonderful police men and women who will be utterly sickened by what happened, by the murder of Sarah Everard. And I think what's going on is that the murder of Sarah Everard. And I think what's going on is that the murder of Sarah Everard and the way it has happened has triggered the feelings

of huge numbers of people about what is going on in the handling of crimes of sexual, domestic violence and also rape and the way we deal with those crimes, the way the police deal with those crimes, the way the police deal with those crimes and what we want to do, irrespective of the ways in which, you know, you can certainly argue that many types of crime are coming down, including, as it happens, stranger murders and so on. There is a phenomenon, which is that rape prosecutions are taking too long and we're not convicting enough rapists and we need to deal with it.

We fix the crime side of it, but we also need to look at the whole criminal justice system. What do you make of what the prime minister had to say? He said in a different interview, he doesn't think that the police are taking violence against women and girls seriously enough. So what I would say is, you know, people can throw around the word trust as if, you know, it's a tick box exercise. It absolutely is not. In order for you to trust someone, that trust has to be earned. It has to be built. And we have to do in policing, have to do that work. We have to build people's trust in order for them to trust us. It just doesn't happen like that and it won't happen overnight. There is, for me, a lot of work that

the police needs to do to build that trust, including engaging with communities and women around these issues so that they understand fully the problem and how best they can deal with it. You've been with the Met, or you were with the Met, for 30 years. And just to talk specifically about the Met, I mentioned that, of course, this is ongoing, about PC David Carrick, who's been charged with rape. And I also mentioned that investigation by the Sunday Mirror showing that 26 Metropolitan Police officers have committed sex crimes since 2016. What is your response to that? Again, for me, in terms of policing and in terms of women,

we have come a long way. So when I joined in 91, you know, there were very few women and we have seen the fact that women have grown to over 30% in the Met, where we haven't seen the same sort of comparison in terms of race. So I know that policing has come a long way in terms of women. But can they do a bit more? Can they dig a bit deeper? Can they understand the issues better? Absolutely, yes. And in terms of banter, again, if it means a zero tolerance is taken, then that's what needs to happen. What we need to do is empower the silent voices within policing to speak up about the issues that impact on them. But also we need to do that within our communities as well.

The former detective superintendent, Paige Kimberley, this is another story that I haven't even mentioned. You know, I'm trying to put things together here to explain what's been going on over the past couple of days with people coming forward and talking about this, as you have as well. But she said that she warned Dame Cressida Dick about a WhatsApp group where male officers were sharing pornographic images and offensive remarks. How common is that behaviour in your experience? I know you say the police is drawn from society. It also reflects the society that it's from. But I should also add that she's going to get compensation after a tribunal found that she'd had a job offer withdrawn the day after she told her manager

about the content of these messages. Yeah, and absolutely. I think that in terms of WhatsAppapp it's a massive problem because a lot of the teams have set up whatsapp groups so they can communicate you know working practices but actually it's almost like the dark web in terms of these messages and contacts um and and and messages and photos will be shared, content will be shared within WhatsApp groups. And ultimately, they are private. But if policing are aware, they can seize that.

They can seize it as evidence and get people's phones interrogated around those complaints. So something can be done, but it's just for people to speak up. If you're part of it you know you've got five people that you mentioned earlier in terms of and cousins being in a whatsapp group how many of them stepped up and said actually this is not right and this is what we need we need people to actually step up and say when something is not right even if it's a mere suspicion they need to speak out about do you think talking about women again do you think female police officers feel able that they can blow the whistle on behavior like this

i don't think the culture is set up for that it really isn't you know like that officer spoke about you know you make a complaint and then it's not that they will come at you directly but indirectly she finds that she doesn't get the job. And then indirectly, you find that all of a sudden your performance isn't where it needs to be. And then the table is turned in terms of, you know, you having raised that complaint. So ultimately, for me, the culture within needs to understand what happens to people when they whistleblow or when they speak up about issues. We're getting a lot of messages while we're talking. And one of them, for instance, says, yes, we need an inquiry because we have to get confidence back. I personally have had to call

the police for domestic violence and they were brilliant and I was grateful for their professional support and care. But we have to get to the bottom of these subcultures of misogyny in the police, also racism being brought up, I should say, on many of the messages. This is policing for the majority of the population, and misogyny must be made a hate crime. Until it is, police know that it isn't prosecuted and isn't taken seriously. Police know there isn't any point in pursuing crimes that will not be prosecuted, so give warnings instead. We have to fix the prosecution of misogyny and sex crimes too. We have to have specialist courts, judges, perhaps not even juries, or if we do have juries, they must have training to disabuse them of myths and prejudice. So quite wide-ranging message there from Alex who's listening in Milton Keynes. But I wanted to ask you, do you believe we should have

a special as it's being called by some Everard inquiry as this is a moment? Absolutely because it won't just impact in terms of London it will impact nationally and even though the spotlight is on London at the moment you know you can't say that this is not happening elsewhere so for me it does it opens up the you know the knowledge and understanding of what is happening and where it's happening and how best it can deal with. And recommendations are the way forward around ensuring that the confidence and trust that people want is rebuilt with policing and communities. We've had a report saying that the police were institutionally racist. And I know that you, just to remind people, were talking to Janet Hills, the newly retired chair of the Metropolitan Black Police Association. When I asked or brought up the idea of this inquiry right at the beginning of the programme,

we got a message straight in off the back of that from Jane who says, I could save the effort of an inquiry regarding the Met Police behaviour and Sarah Everard. They are institutionally sexist and racist. They need to address vetting and ongoing vetting while in post. A couple of other messages to different points from serving police officers. I know we'll have many listening. But what do you make of that? Are the police institutionally

sexist from your experience it has to be a yes in terms of that because for me you have to recognize that you have a problem in order to deal with it and you know as I said the advice given um for lone females was just not credible. And we can't do it alone. We need others in because the mindset, there isn't, I guess, the diversity of thought that there should be at that senior level that allows, even though we've got women in there and men and good people, to say the least,

but we just haven't got it right. We just don't understand it because it's not our lived experience they're not having to walk in those women's shoes or my shoes in terms of understanding the problem and for me that is what needs to happen so it needs to be opened up you need to get a broader perspective on the issues for order in order for it to be dealt with by the police and once it's there it's almost like they have to then comply but we want it to happen organically as well we want it to happen naturally from within we want them to understand given you know you've got over 30 percent of women that are police officers that actually

they have a voice and that they should be spoken to and women are in our community should be spoken to in order to help solve this problem and to build trust and confidence very briefly if you will uh jonah hill should quesadilla dick stay in the job absolutely i i do you know i know that i'll probably be criticised for this, but absolutely I think she should. I think that she has had a challenge from the initial moment that she got here. It's not been perfect, but she is the first woman in this role and needs to be supported in this. You know, we've had men after men after men and she is a woman in this role. And it's easy, as we know, to dismiss her for doing her role and not quite getting things right. But that is where the support is needed from my perspective. So, yes, a lot of people will agree with you, but a lot of other people will not.

Not just not just not just over this case. And I've interviewed some of them in the past and not not long ago. And the likes of Harvey Proctor again you can look up that interview but very interesting to get very interesting to get your your take on that Janet Hills the newly retired chair of the Metropolitan Black Police Association she spent 30 years with the Met rising to sergeant in Brixton thank you for your time let's go now to the Conservative Party Conference in Manchester I'm hoping I can speak I believe I can speak to Laura Farris MP good Good morning. Good morning, Emma. I know you joined a discussion yesterday afternoon with Conservative young women discussing violence against women and girls. And

I know you've only just come on the line, but the most extraordinary insights, or not, depending on where you're coming at this from, from Janet Hills just there, who agreed with the assertion that the police for which she has been a part of, the Met in fact, for the last 30 years, is institutionally sexist. What do you think about that? Well, I think that's a very powerful disclosure. But of course, some of the evidence that's emerging around Wayne Cousins seems to suggest that some of his behaviour was tolerated or permitted. And I think that, you know, I think we've obviously got to look really carefully at

the structures in policing that have allowed that kind of, you know, mentality to pervade. But we've heard from the Prime Minister that women should be trusting the police. And we've just heard from someone who's recently retired from the Met Police that it's institutionally sexist. Well, Emma, look, let's just kind of separate out what you're saying. What happened with Wayne Cousins was an absolutely horrific, but also an exceptional crime. And that was reflected in Lord Justice Fulford's remarks when he sentenced. The reason he had a whole life tariff was not just because of the rape and murder, appalling though it was, but it was because of the abuse of his position as a police officer. But you're right to say

that what is much more worrying are the kind of attitudes and the customs and, you know, the WhatsApp sharing of messages and using sex workers and watching porn and that being a part of a culture. And whether somebody who is in receipt, who is paid from the public purse and whose job is the protection of people can then do a proper job of all the things we require them to do for women, whether that's domestic abuse or whether that's rape or whether that's stalking, whether they're going to take that work sufficiently seriously or the public can be confident that they're going to do it sufficiently seriously,

if there's also this lingering feeling that perhaps they don't actually have respect or that some officers don't have respect. And let's, you know, one of the things that's concerning is it only takes a few people, for people then to start questioning, well, is this the right culture? But that's what I asked you. How can we feel as women? How can women feel that trust? Not least in light of not just the details you've shared there. There was a report from the Sunday Mirror yesterday, a Freedom of Information request, which revealed that 26 metropolitan police officers have committed sex crimes since 2016. And just to go back to the advice from the Met itself about what to do if you're approached by a male police officer, which includes flagging down a bus. Well, look, I think where you're getting to is does there need to be change in the Met Police and perhaps across the

police forces? And I think that's a fair question and you're right to challenge me on it. These things are always part of a culture. What are the standards of behaviour that are tolerated? What is the management structure? Is there a clear whistleblowing policy? I read something in the Sunday... Sorry, the Conservatives have just extended, the Priti Patel's just extended Cressida Dick's tenure. You heard one view that she should be allowed to continue there. But there are many who do not believe that. Well, there may be a difference of view, but I think that actually it's Cressida Dick's job to put these,

I think she's got an important job to do in restoring trust and confidence in the police, in the Met Police, and that will require a root and branch look at the conduct and the behaviours and the cultures that are pervading the police force. So the police should continue policing itself? Well, Cressida Dick is the head of that force.

And of course, it's her leadership that will be absolutely instrumental in what change if any comes about. It's under her leadership. Bear in mind, we have asked her on this programme. We will keep asking her on this programme. It's under her leadership that this culture is there. Yeah, I mean, I accept that. But I mean, I don't know that we, well, look, for those who are calling for her scalp, so to speak, I do understand that, you know, it offers a kind of ready answer. But is that really the answer? Your previous speaker spoke about her as the first woman to be the Commissioner of the Met Police. Of course, the Home Secretary would be right to expect her to take some radical action in light of what's

transpired. But I don't think that that is the same as calling for her to go. I don't know what you achieve by that. So moving off whether she should go or not, the Prime Minister has not supported yet an independent inquiry like there was the Macpherson inquiry into racism after the murder of Stephen Lawrence. Do you believe there should be an inquiry? Public inquiries serve two purposes. The benefit of them is that they are a deep dive into whatever issue you're looking at. I know this because I was a lawyer who used to work regularly on public inquiries. The difficulty with them is that they tend to be long, very costly, and they can be a bit of a sticking plaster where whatever organisation says, well, there's an inquiry

happening. Actually, I think this calls for a rapid review. I think there's quite a lot that we already know and don't really need to spend a lot of time on. We know there was a significant failing of vetting. We know that there have been some cultures that seem to have allowed this person to circulate when he's basically there was disciplinary issues and some evidence that he may have been involved in previous criminal conduct while he was serving in the Met Police and that wasn't addressed. So I am sort of slightly loathe to say we need to do a big inquiry like Macpherson and actually think we need to get, if anything, something that's rapid with a tight timeframe and actually look to the action because some of it we already know, Emma. Who's going to do that? Well, the best kind of, you know, the best kind of um you know the best kind of review would always have to be independent

but the implementation of whatever the recommendations would be would of course fall to Cressida Dick and her top her team at the top as it would with any I understand the implementation but you just talked about let's not do a Macpherson style review let's do a rapid review who's that well it could still be a judge-led inquiry it doesn it? I mean, it's not prescriptive over who conducts it. And of course, it has to be independent because the Met Police can't mark their own homework. So are you expecting the Prime Minister to make this sort of announcement? That's what I'm trying to drive at the urgency around this. You've talked as a backbench MP, former lawyer, but you are not in the cabinet. and I just want to try and understand what's going

to be done sorry excuse me a current lawyer forgive me I didn't know you could do both at the same time perhaps you can uh it's a full-time job for a lot of people being an MP but the the question I'm asking is a rapid review when well it's I mean it's going to be a matter I mean it's going to be a matter for the Home Office to working with with the Met Police to determine what they do but as I say some of the lessons are already visible to us. We already know that there's a vetting issue. We don't need to sort of park that to ascertain whether or not the police have sufficiently robust vetting at the moment.

We already know that moments for serious disciplinary action were not taken up because there's evidence that, or there's a strong suggestion that he was exposing himself at a McDonald's two weeks before and nothing happened, even though they had the number plates and they would have been able to trace him. So we already know that, Emma, some of the kind of big failings weren't there. Yeah, I know that. I'm just trying to understand what's going to happen about it. Because right now, it looks like the police are marking their own homework again. And you've got women around the

country, you know, and yes, they've got to try and get petrol. And yes, they're worried about jobs. And yes, they're worried about furlough ending and perhaps about the 20 pound universal credit coming away from them this week if they were if they were relying on that but they're also worrying about if something happens to me can I go to a police officer well of course they can go to a police officer as I said I think there are two sort of separate things there was this was a uniquely horrific crime but there is a wider sense of whether or not the cultures are there to sustain policing more broadly. It's engaged that conversation, but it doesn't mean that the police can't be trusted or you can't go to a police officer.

It doesn't have to mean that, but I'm trying to say to you that we've just heard from a police officer that she believes the police is institutionally sexist. If you make comparisons to how potentially people felt when they learned that the police was institutionally racist, you are talking about half the population hearing and thinking and feeling like that. And even if it's an exceptional crime, they're hearing about WhatsApp messages where women are the butt of the jokes at a time when rape prosecutions are so low in this country, the former Justice Secretary had to apologise. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, again, that's that there are some really significant points. I think the issue around policing is about I mean, you've talked about the culture,

let's be honest, some of that misogynistic culture pervades every level of public life. And that was part of the conversation we had last night, actually changing societal cultures around, you know, people who look at a pejorative way on women is not just confined to, you know, the police, it's something that is has become a deep rooted problem and explains a lot of the violence against women that we've seen in the lot, you know, particularly in the last year, there've been some very significant cases, but in general, actually. So there's a societal issue here. When it comes to policing, and I think what was really important was Zoe Billingham's report, actually, the police report into violence against women and girls was published on the 17th of September. What that revealed, and I think this is where, you know, there is a sort of sense of public intersection, was that there is an issue with whether or not the police are sufficiently active

on enforcement over lower level crimes against women, for example, stalking, for example, indecent exposure, and that those crimes can end up escalating with the person becoming a much more serious offender. I think that sort of focused look, know, look, which was really the purpose of her report, at what is going right and wrong for women is where we can best engage. It's very difficult for me to come on your show and say, because there may or may not have been four met policemen on a WhatsApp group, exchanging lewd content, the entire police force across the United

Kingdom is rotten. And I wouldn't agree with that proposition. That's not what you were asked. No, I know, but... You were asked about faith and... The word institutional sexism has a sort of sense of it covering everybody. Of course it doesn't. There's lots of brilliant police officers. Lord Justice Fulford, actually, when he gave his sentencing remarks in the Sarah Everard case, paid particular tribute to the police.

This all began because I don't feel you've answered the question appropriately yet about why Boris Johnson when he says you should trust the police can get women to trust the police at a time like this after an exceptional crime it within a culture that we're hearing more and more about. I asked you how we can do that. Well well because you know as I think I tried to answer, this exceptional crime doesn't mean that every aspect of policing is failing women. But what it does, of course, it has its own features and they've been dealt with in the criminal justice system. And it's opened the issue of what kinds of cultures and behaviours exist in the police force and what needs to happen so that people can feel kind of confident. I think it also opens the question about the police policing itself at times, because you've just mentioned Zoe Billingham.

I had her on Thursday. We went through an enormous amount of detail on how in 2019, she talked about the fact that the vetting systems were not in place between different police forces. And she also said she had no way of implementing that. So when the police fail to police themselves, you are our backstop, our elected officials. And there is concern that we have had a conservative government now for more than a decade, and rape prosecutions have only gone one way.

And there is no one else to turn to at this point, perhaps, than you. You've only been yourself an MP since 2019, I believe. But we're in a situation where I'm asking you how you can tell, or rather your leader can tell this country to have faith in the police. Well, OK, so I think you've made two really good points. First of all, it's right to say that is in her report. There is a lack of information sharing between forces. And that is something you can expect, I think, a response on, because that is one of the reasons why the Kent police did not

share the background to Wayne Cousins with the Met Police and I think that's a really relevant issue and I think you can expect your elected representatives to act on that. The second point you made was about rape convictions. Rape convictions haven't been consistently falling since 2010. There was a turning point from 2016 where something happened. We're doing a review into this on the Home Affairs Select Committee on which I sit. And there's also been the end-to-end rape review. Something happened in 2016 that had a calamitous effect on the level of conviction from reported rapes to getting the final conviction. The end-to-end rape review revealed that what was going wrong really

was in the policing process and it was victims withdrawing their claims because they'd been treated as suspects themselves, not victims by the police who were investigating. They'd had their phones taken from far too long. The whole thing felt incredibly exposing and in the end it just wasn't worth them pursuing it. There is now a strategy in place to improve the rape conviction rate. You're right to hold us to account and see how we deal with that. But look, of course,

these are critical issues, but we're not doing nothing about them. And as I say, there was something that happened in 2016, which I think precipitated a different policing response that's had a very serious effect on rape conviction rates. Thank you very much for making time to talk to us today. Laura Farris in Manchester for the Conservative Party Conference and MP for Newbury, who fresh off a discussion yesterday with Conservative young women discussing violence against women and girls. And thank you again to Janet Hills, the newly retired chair of the Metropolitan Black Police Association, who was with the Met for 30 years. Many messages coming in talking about your responses to this, whether you think there needs to be some kind of review. And you were just

hearing actually about the Home Affairs Select Committee, which takes you on to my next guest, Jenny McCulloch, who had her dream job. She was devoted to it, proud of it. She worked as a clerk in Parliament. She was in contact with a lot of MPs and one of her jobs was to make sure that the Home Affairs Select Committee worked properly and to the rules. The chair of that committee was Labour's Keith Vaz when he was still an MP while Jenny was working there. But Jenny was worried about how he behaved in the role and stood up to him. It came at a cost though. She felt bullied and undermined, and it derailed her career, eventually leading to her resignation and her decision to get involved

in a broader Newsnight investigation into bullying across Parliament. A fortnight ago, a House of Commons independent expert panel upheld the complaints she officially made about Keith Vaz. Today is Jenny McCulloch's first interview since that result, and she started off by describing to me what she did in her job.

I was a clerk working in the House of Commons for the Home Affairs Committee, of which Keith Vaz was the chair. So along with my boss, the clerk of the committee, I helped to run the team that supported the committee's work, doing inquiries into the work of the Home Office. And what was he like to work with? I think people's experiences of working with him were different. My experience of him quickly became very, very poor and I find it a very stressful experience to work with him. I tried to communicate with him and relate to him as I would any other Member of Parliament,

in particular any other chair of a select committee. I'd worked for several different select committee chairs in the past and always had good relationships with them. But I found that very quickly over the course of a visit and some meetings, during which time I'd queried some of Mr Vaz's decisions and reminded him of the rules that were in place relating to visits and other business of the committee that I was subjected to a lot of personal criticism

and humiliated and disparaged in front of other MPs and other people who were speaking to the committee. This course of behaviour continued and intensified over the course of months. This report, an independent expert panel has upheld the complaints that you officially made about Keith Vaz. But I wanted to get your response to that and what that has done for you, perhaps. Well, I'm really pleased about the outcome of the report. For me, it's confirmation by an independent panel that the behaviour towards me was unacceptable and it was serious

and that I was right to raise concerns about it. It's also helpful for me to have got through this process because when I was working at the House of Commons in that situation, I was led to believe sometimes that I was bringing that behaviour on myself, that it was my fault because somehow my approach to working was meek and mild and invited that kind of pressure. Whereas in fact, sometimes I was the only person who was standing up to Mr Vaz.

I was really committed to my job and to trying to do what I thought was right. So it was galling to me to be told that I was somehow a stereotypical Billy's victim. But actually, the most important thing for me about the outcome of the report is that it shows the completion of a fully independent process for dealing with complaints of bullying and harassment at the House of Commons. That was something that didn't exist a few years ago. It's something that only exists because of the investigation

that Newsnight did, because of the very many brave people who decided to come forward and speak out. And then to keep speaking out, to put pressure on the House of Commons to instigate an inquiry by Dame Laura Cox. And then again, more pressure was needed to get the House to adopt those recommendations. And then again, to make sure that the process was fully independent. I was going to say, you were part of those who came forward. You were one of a number to my colleagues at Newsnight to speak out about, how would you describe it, abuses of power? of the power that comes with some status and the service of a team of support staff. Could you give an example?

So what sort of things did you experience at the hands of Keith Vaz? Well, there are some examples given in the report. I think a lot of people will relate to the kind of experience, if not the specific example. So a lot of the criticism that was levelled at me involved telling me that I wasn't capable of doing my job, that I was incompetent. So a constant undermining of me in my work in front of my colleagues and in front of other people and that extended then to to using things about me that were points of difference uh about me um so uh querying my age saying that i wasn't fit to do my job i didn't know how to do my job

because i wasn't a mother um also um picking up on my um on my background because I'm from Northern Ireland and sort of linking that to the troubles in Northern Ireland. I mean, I'm glad that the report brought out those examples as examples of behaviour that's totally unacceptable. But at the same time, I don't think that bullying and harassment necessarily have to turn on people's protected characteristics. I know a lot of people in those unequal relationships will have had the experience of being berated and borne down on and humiliated and not being in a position to be able to resist or to leave the situation, but having to try and make

a calculation of how can I get this to stop and not to escalate so that I can do my job. How old were you at the time? At that time, I was 30. I started working at the House of Commons when I was 24. And what were other colleagues saying? Because you mentioned some of this happened in front of others. It was a really difficult experience for my colleagues on the team. I had some very good friends in the house and some individual colleagues tried very hard to help me. And then the later stages tried hard to help me to stay but the culture and the system was such that it just seemed that there wasn't any answer to the problem except to leave so there were some very awkward situations

and Mr Vaz's behaviour to me was was such that I couldn't really attend some meetings anymore because the business of the committee couldn't or the business of the committee couldn't, or the business of the committee staff team couldn't carry on while I was being subjected to that sort of behaviour. And so in terms of how you did find the way to say something or to try to make it stop, what were the first steps? Did you try and say anything to him? I tried to just do what I would usually do in my job, which is try to be reasonable and to explain why I was saying what I was saying. I mean, there was no reason for me to try to obstruct Mr Vaz in his work or in the work of the committee.

I was there to support it and to help the committee to meet its objectives. But as a clerk, I had a responsibility to the House as a whole to try to maintain its standards and ensure that its rules were observed. And there was, I mean, that's important work. You were trying to be professional. Yes, I was.

I was trying to be reasonable, but I was also trying to engage with him. So again, when I was being told that I shouldn't let people bully me, or it was being implied that I'd somehow brought this behaviour on myself or that I was overreacting, actually, there were times when I was the only person who would meet his eye when this was happening. In the report, it talks about the real and enduring psychological impact this has had on you. What would you say it has been? It's something that I find hard to talk about all along. It's hard to be styled as a victim of that sort of behaviour

when I think about what other people go through. But it did have a serious impact on me. So I found that I suffered a huge loss of confidence in myself, my my judgment I was really committed to my job at the House of Commons I loved it the place and the work especially the people were everything to me at that at that time and it was what I wanted to keep doing I tried to do that and it just it became it became unsustainable I was I just I just, I became, I became unwell. And the point at which I left was the last point at which that would have been a decision for me to take. What do you mean by that? I think it would have been out of my hands.

I think I would have been too ill to continue, really. So I was lucky to be able to leave and to get another job. Then I took part in another in a grievance um process because I was really determined that I should raise the alarm about this I didn't want I didn't want it to happen to other people what happened in that did you did you get any compensation was was that process satisfactory um no it wasn't to me I My grievance was against the management of the House of Commons for failing to protect me. And the outcome of that process straight away acknowledged that I'd been subjected to inappropriate behaviour, but didn't find that there had been any failures on the part of the House of Commons management.

In fact, found that I hadn't looked for or accepted the support that was available to me because I was worried that it would damage my standing in the eyes of House of Commons management. So that was really crushing to me partly because there was something in it while I was going through that experience, I felt very ashamed. I felt that it was my fault. I felt at times it was my fault. And it was confusing to me that the people that I admired most in the world, whose work I thought that I was helping,

thought that I wasn't up to it, or thought that this was happening to me because I was weak. When you say the people you admire most in the world, who are you talking about there? So I'm talking about my senior colleagues in the House of Commons. And as I say, there were some individuals who tried really hard to help me, but it just seemed impossible. With the publishing of this report,

is there anything else that you personally, I know you started to come onto this before and I want to come back to it, about what perhaps may have changed now for other people. But is there anything you want to do now because perhaps you feel in some way vindicated that you couldn't do before? Well, I mean, it's hard to admit.

But I think that there is damage that's done that can't be undone. And something that other people who've been through this have said to me is that they can't get back what's been taken away from them. But at the same time, I've been really lucky in the experiences that I've had since leaving the house. And that broader experience has been really good for me. You don't work in the same sort of role at all now no I don't work in it I don't work in the same sort of I don't work in the same sort of role I went to I went to a different job that I'd previously done some training for and that was really I was lucky to have done that training because that was the only thing that made me think that it was another job that I might be able to do um and having been really humiliated at the House of Commons,

I was humbled by the people that I met in other places and got to work with and got to know. But I find it difficult going over the experiences that I've had in the past. And I still question my judgment all the time. But people that I've met in subsequent jobs have supported me more than they could have known about before my experience at the House of Commons became public.

I didn't talk about it for years, so it came as a surprise to some of my colleagues and some of my friends when it became public. Does this give you any closure, this report, or is there anything else you would be looking for? It does in a way. I'm glad that I made the commitment to speak about this in the public interest. I'm glad that I had the evidence and was able to use that. I feel now that I've demonstrated that I am a strong person and that I am capable. I mean, it's sad that I think that I could be doing really good work

at the House of Commons now. I'd be better at it now than I was then. But I'm also grateful for the experiences that I've had. So in a way, that vindication is good for me personally, but I don't think that the work of changing the culture at the House of Commons is anywhere near done. What other changes would you like to see? Well, I think the independent process is very important,

especially while there's still so much work to do in changing the culture of the place. The process needs to be run through and improved to make it an easier experience for complainants or people who report complaints and respondents as well. There's work to do there. Because we should say this has been going on for a long time. Yes, it has.

I mean, well, my own case was from a long time ago, from 2007, 2008. And the first complaint I pursued was in 2011 but my recent complaint was nearly two years ago but I think the main thing to focus on is the recognition that it is a serious problem. It will take time for the culture to change and whilst that's happening procedures are particularly important. So procedures for making the complaint and going through the independent process, as I have, but also procedures for protecting staff. How has it left you feeling about politicians and politics generally, having had these experiences

and seen some of the workings of the House of Commons up close? Well, I think in any group of 650 people, there's going to be a spectrum of behaviour. And so I think I've seen the worst and I've also seen the best. And I think the important thing is where the critical mass lies and that dictates what the culture is. So the ideas of norms or what is acceptable uh so it's it's good now that an independent process can can adjudicate that and and guide the culture but i part of the reason why the house of commons was a working there was

a dream job for me was because i was because i was interested in the process or he believed in the process of the process of democracy on its own terms I was delighted to be able to get a job that involved being politically impartial I didn't think it would involve being challenged on my background so I mean that has coloured my experience personally of working for it but the reason why I'm doing what I'm doing it's for the sake of the institution, because it's a really important part of public life. And it influences culture and society more widely. and as part of the campaigns that I've run, our friends and former colleagues, current and former staff of the House of Commons,

and despite how it might seem, we haven't been working against the House of Commons, we've been working for Parliament because we want it to work, we want it to be a place where people can do their best work. A statement on behalf of Keith Vaz says he's never seen the report, nor has he had the chance to question any witnesses or provide a response. He says the report's process is riddled with flaws and this matter is now in the hands of solicitors. I wanted to give you a chance to respond to that.

Well, I think Mr Vaz's response is up to him. I am guided by the findings of the independent panel's report. The panel notes that Mr. Vaz didn't appeal the findings at any stage. I don't want to be the cause of stress or strain to anybody. I know what it's like, of course, to be on the other end of that. Despite the personal nature of this process, my reason for going through it and seeing it through has not been to do with me or any one member of Parliament. It's to do with the process and the culture of the place. I made a commitment to go public with this because I wanted the place to improve

and because I was really proud to stand with a group of people who were working for change. Jenny McCulloch in her first interview since the results of that panel. We had a long conversation with Keith Vaz on Friday. He stressed how ill he was. He says that as a direct result of what he calls the protracted and debilitating process of this complaint, he's been in hospital and is still undergoing treatment. He maintains that he had a good relationship with Jenny and the rest of the team, and he told us he was one of the first MPs to go on the harassment and bullying course in Parliament. He also said that at 65 with medical

conditions he has no intention of standing as an MP again. We went to the independent expert panel but it said it had nothing further to add beyond what's in the report and the House of Commons gave us the following statement, bullying, harassment and sexual harassment have absolutely no place in Parliament. we have in the past sometimes failed to honour the responsibility to provide a workplace free of bullying and harassment the scale of the problem and the depth of hurt caused is beyond dispute we deeply regret that the diligence of our staff has at times been so poorly repaid however due to the courage of those who were willing to speak out significant changes have now been made and the parliament's

behaviour code now makes clear the standards expected of everyone in the parliamentary community. And more messages I should say have come in so many about our initial question around the police. Verna says just about institutional sexism of the police is a question. It seems that the male police population simply reflect the general population in their attitudes and criminal actions against women. The solution lies with all of us perhaps. If I can I'll come back to a few more of those messages some very powerful ones indeed including one who was married to a police officer but i wanted to bring this to you because i said right at the beginning of the program that we would talk about women's role that

has often been overlooked with someone who knows all about this in a very different field, magic. You may have seen the recent news that the Magic Circle has elected its first female president in 116 years, 28-year-old Megan Swan. But Dr Naomi Paxton is here, the academic and magician, to tell us perhaps how important is that, do you think, Naomi, and does it point to the past? Yeah, I think it's really important. Thank you for having me on. I think it's fantastic that she's the first woman president. And I think it's fantastic that she's a young woman and that she's grown up as a member of the Young Magicians Club

and performing in her own right. I think it's a really exciting thing to kind of future-proof the circle for new generations of performers and researchers. And is it wrong to think of magicians in the past and women's role as just the assistants? Not really, no. I mean, they mostly started off as assistants and that has been the kind of predominant face of women.

Just because they've been visible hasn't meant they've had agency often, apparently, on stage. But we know that the first kind of woman pioneering magician who ran her own show was the fantastic Adelaide Herman, who started in the early 20th century after her husband died. And she had initially started an assistant as his assistant, but had lots of different roles in that.

So it's not surprising that women become part of magic starting with assistants, particularly when they weren't allowed to join the magic circle until 1991. I'd like to correct myself. I also said just as assistants. I remember when actually we've spoken once before and Debbie McGee was with us and and the you don't see it as just with some of the things that they have to do and continue to do. Absolutely not that's part of the illusion is it's apparently how little that the the assistants do on stage but increasingly now after those examples people like Adelaide Herman people like Ellen Armstrong and going forward there have been women who've been touring and producing their own shows and recreating some

of those tropes of magic for themselves and moving those forward in the 20th and 21st century. How do audiences respond to female magicians? Is there anything about that being different? Or has it just been that it hasn't been something that perhaps women have thought is for them? I think it is partly it is that thing of not being able to see somebody in that position or not being able to see somebody who is the magician rather than just apparently the assistant. I think audiences see it as a novelty.

I think it's a fresh way of coming to the patter, of coming to the tricks, of playing with costume, of playing with kind of stage dynamics and how you interact with audiences. And because it crosses so many different things, there's stage magic, there's illusions, there's kind of math magic, there's parlor magic,

there's sleight of hand. There are so many opportunities for women to showcase their skills. And particularly if they have kind of interdisciplinary multiple skills in different areas to kind of bring that into magic in a different way. And does that mean now that you are going to see, do you think more male assistants and then playing the roles that women have always played and some of those tricks about? I mean, a lot of it has been based on, I suppose, women being in pain or women not being there, being made to, you know, is that changing the style of trick? Well, I think so. And hopefully the more visibility we have for women in magic, the more that will change, because I think it's been a sort of thoughtless continuing. I've found since I've got involved in magic that there have been kind of stories that are sort of needlessly triggering to potentially female audiences that are about violence against women and girls, that are about lost babies and murdered women and stalkers and sort of dark Victorian streets that are completely unnecessary if you just want to show that you

found the eight of diamonds. So I think it's really important that we find more female-centred stories. And there's, for example, there's a 16-year-old in the States who was looking at a deck of cards thinking that there was a gender bias and there was a whiteness about them. And she created a deck that was the first ever multi-ethnic deck of cards. And that's a really exciting thing for women and men going forward,

that actually we don't have to take these, what appear to be these kind of traditional things set in stone exactly as read. They are there to be played with and they're there to be reframed for different audiences. And if magicians can't make things seem different, I don't know who can. Dr Naomi Paxton, thank you very much for that insight. Thank you for your company

today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. What's the link between poisoned underpants? They wanted something that wraps against your skin. ..a plot to kill Nelson Mandela...

To find a poison that would cause cancer and have him die shortly afterwards. ..and the deadly riots in South Africa this year? I'm Andrew Harding with a tale of politics and paranoia. Some people wanted me dead. Oh, and the link is Jacob Zuma, South Africa's former president. And indeed, it was quite a strong poison. That's Poison from BBC Radio 4. To listen to all five episodes, just search for Seriously on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.