Woman's Hour - Iran hijab bill, BMX champion, CIISA, Doon Mackichan, Maternity in Sierra Leone

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

Iran’s parliament has approved the Hijab and Chastity Bill, under which women will face up to 10 years in prison if they defy the country’s mandatory hijab rules. This comes a year after the death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini who was detained by Iran's morality police for allegedly violating rules requiring women to cover their hair. Emma Barnett speaks to Samaneh Savadi, an Iranian feminist activist who specialises in international law.A new independent standards body, the Creative Industry Independent Standards Authority, is being set up in the UK so that concerns over behaviour can be raised and investigated confidentially. Emma talks to its CEO, Jen Smith.Sarah-Jane Nichols, former BMX racing world champion, talks to Emma about qualifying for the world championships 36 years after she first retired from the sport.Since the 1980s, the comedian and actor Doon Mackichan has been a TV regular, starring in programmes like Two Doors Down, Smack the Pony and Brass Eye. She has also played plenty of roles on stage. Doon talks to Emma about her recollections of those parts and dissects how today’s culture still expects women to adhere to stereotypes, some of which she refuses to act out, as described  in her memoir, My Lady Parts.Isata Dumbuya is a midwife who is striving to reduce maternal mortality rates in Sierra Leone, a country where 717 in 100,000 women die in childbirth every year. She has dedicated her career to helping mothers-to-be and joins Emma to talk about the new maternal centre she is setting up.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Steve Greenwood

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. We're apparently living in a country that's unrecognisable from 40 years ago in terms of our social and liberal attitudes. This picture of dramatic change has been gleaned from the annual British Social Attitude Survey, which is marking its 40th year of mapping the country's cultural and political landscape on issues such as same-sex marriage through to who does the housework. And while there are many advancements on that latter point, still two-thirds of respondents

to that survey say women do most of the cleaning and cooking. That's despite the majority of people who responded saying household chores should be better shared. You may have something to say about that. You may. But today I'm going to be joined by one woman who probably doesn't have much time in the way for domestic chores as she's busy back on her BMX. Today I'm going to be talking to Sarah-Jane Nicholls, the former world BMX champion, about getting back on her bike competitively now in her 50s and taking leave from her job at a school where she's usually cleaning there and instead heading to try and get a podium spot to the world championships. What a contrast. It gives me

the great opportunity to ask you what you do at the weekend or away from your job by night, perhaps, which is totally different to your day-to-day. Do your colleagues know about it? Do people in your life know about it? Tell me about those contrasts and those passions and those interests. 84844, that's the number you need to text the programme. Standard message rate, you'll be charged on social media,

we're at bbcwomans Hour, or you can email me through our website or a WhatsApp or a voice note, if you're that way inclined. 03700 100 444. Just watch those data charges. You might be better placed on Wi-Fi. Also on today's programme, with comedy's Me Too moment in the offing after police assign specialist officers to handle women's allegations against the comedian Russell Brand,

allegations he denies. I'll be talking to the new chief executive of a new standards authority for the creative industry. Could that help? I'll also be joined by someone who have a view, I'm sure, the comedy actor and writer who knows the entertainment industry well, Doon McKeon. She of Smack the Pony fame, the double Emmy award winning programme.

I'm sure you remember it and had a very good laugh. She'll be here in the studio with her new memoir. And the NHS trained midwife who's trying to help the pregnant women of Sierra Leone. All of that to come. And I'm looking forward to hearing from you throughout the programme. Please do get in touch. But first, we wanted to start today's programme by turning our attention towards Iran. Iran's parliament has approved a controversial new bill, the Hijab and Chastity Bill, under which women will face up to 10 years in prison if they defy the country's

mandatory hijab rules. This comes a year after the death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini, who was detained by Iran's morality police for allegedly violating rules requiring women to cover their hair. It's a dramatic sounding law. What will the reality mean for women in Iran? Well, helping us unpack that is Samaneh Saravadi, an Iranian feminist activist based here in the UK who specialises in international law. Good morning and thank you so much for joining us. Morning, Emma. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for covering this brutal situation inside Iran. You've used the word brutal. Tell us on this particular bill, the hijab and chastity bill,

what does it say and what do you think it will mean? Yeah, I think if you want to really, really unpack it, I would have made like a couple of hours. Okay, but fair enough. Every single article of that can be criticised and actually are against, you know, human rights. It's going to impact women's life inside Iran in, you know, from the very, very different aspects, their education, their job,

their health, because now women, their education, their job, their health, because now women not only should cover their hair going to the street, but also they can't be hired. If they hire by someone without believing in a hijab, that person is going to be punished because of that. If they sit in someone's car without wearing a hijab, that driver is going to be punished for that, alongside with the woman itself. And also universities, hospitals, all those places and schools are now not going to let a woman who does not believe in hijab

or is not wearing hijab inside them. At the same time, if, for example, you want to buy something, if you buy it from a businesswoman who is not believing in hijab, you're going to be punished. That businesswoman is going to be punished. And it's just like going to, you know, have a massive impact on a woman's life. It seems government eventually is like, OK, if you are not going to obey the, you know, the law of hijab, I'm going to put your health, your education, your business, your financial situation, everything in danger. So you have to do so.

What you're saying, though, of course, the impact on the women is going to be huge and continue to be huge. It's, you know, maybe you tell me about the change this perhaps will mean as well, what a contrast it might mean. But it's very striking that it will be guilt by association as well as well if you are sitting next to a woman who isn't dressed how is deemed fit you will be guilty yeah yeah you know you know that is basically um they want to make this a norm of the society by force you know because for years and years islamic republic was saying in international communities that it is a part of a culture.

But after the death of, the killing of Mahsa Amini, people were just like, no, no, no, it's not a part. It's not everyone's culture, maybe some people's culture. But now they want to force it as a culture. And they also, the other thing in that law is that ask people to spy on each other and ask, for example, you can call and let us know where which woman is not wearing a hijab. And so therefore, based on your report, we can take action on that. So, yeah, it seems it is a new way of them to force hijab as a culture, not just as a legal thing, but also they want to make it a like forced culture and how much of that is a difference with what's happening now or is this

a way of legalizing it yeah exactly before so many of these was like an unwritten law and so for people like me i could always come out and say, what you're doing is illegal. And now they are just like, okay, for so many years, you'd said what you're doing is illegal. Now we're going to legalize it. They are legalizing that

and also criminalizing. We just talked about women. At the same time, men can't wear shorts anymore as well. So they don't say it's only about hijab. They call it hijab and modesty. So because of that, they involve men as well. So they don't say it's only about hijab. They call it hijab and modesty. So because of that, they involve men as well. Will men be put in prison if they, for sometimes as much as 10 years, if they'd wear shorts? Yes. So this is what it covers. And I understand, I mean, I'm quite familiar with how bills pass into law in Britain,

in this country. I understand this law still needs approval from something called the Guardian Council in Iran. Yeah, the rule of the Guardian Council is actually to make sure every law is based on Islam. And if something is against Islam, they're going to not let that to become a law. With this one, to be honest, I think it goes beyond Islam and I'm sure it's going to be any problem there. They're going to be more than happy to approve it.

So there's not expected to be opposition on that side. But what about the women of Iran? Have you managed to speak to any women in the last day or so when this has started to come out, reports of this? Yes, sadly, I should say with those who are out of prison at the moment, because for the anniversary of Mahsa Amini, so many of women's activists, feminists, have been arrested, so they are in prison at the moment. I can't say even the numbers, because I know at least hundreds of them. So, yeah, what is happening is they are not surprised because as i said these law here

and there they were unwritten and they were women still were living in that situation and um you know and reveling against the law at the same time um so i believe we should i mean i do believe in a woman's creativity in iran they always find a creative way to still, you know, protest against this law. I think this law is going to be passed, but what's going to happen after that and how women are going to react to it? Well, to be honest, I'm here to just sit and watch and see because the day that, for example, the day that Massa Amini was killed, I wasn't thinking the next thing that I'm going to see is a woman burning their scarves inside the streets. So you're going to wait to see because you're here and you're based here as an Iranian feminist activist. But do you think from the conversations you have had, not necessarily in the last 24 hours, that women will continue to find ways, you talk about that creativity, to protest and challenge authority, even with this new law, with a threat of, because you know, it's 10 years in prison.

I'm not saying women haven't been in prison, you've just made that point. But it's even more upping of the stakes. Yeah, it is 10 year in prison but we should we should mention that as well that it is um um um you know it is or it can be a financial punishment as well they can be just like okay pay this much money so i think for a government it has become a way of that as well it's just like through all this sanction and financial situation we can't make a way that um you know if someone can pay to be without hijab let them pay for it but what i want to say now we are talking about 10 year in prison or financial situations but women have been killed because of not wearing hijab i think so we should compare these two um together women before could think that could they could think that they could be bitten,

they could be, you know, taken to prison, or they could be killed in a custody. So I am sure they're going to still protest against it. And there is no way back, especially for the younger generation. I totally understand, again, because of the financial situation, some people may not want to lose their job lose their education you know put the risk of their health and all that I totally understand that but I do not believe this law can suppress um women completely a year on as you talk about

with the with Masa Amini's death and then this and this news as an Iranian, as a feminist activist, how are you feeling at the moment? you know, overly positive. But I believe that this law is, it's not their action. It is the reaction of them towards the, you know, losing the battle to women. They were just like, okay, they didn't accept this is a culture. They didn't accept the previous law. So we lost that battle. And now they are still, you know, pushing us to change the situation and now we have to make the situation worse um of course it is very heartbreaking that you know the young people inside iran young women and girls inside iran have to go through this but i think at the same time it shows that the ideology of islamic republic the ideology of hijab didn't work and is not going to work. I am not hopeful for a short term, but I'm sure in a long run,

this situation, of course, can't be continued because of the protest of women. Samaneh Savadi, thank you very much for your time this morning. An Iranian feminist activist based here in the UK following this closely, but also, of course, in touch with people in Iran. Now, your messages while we were talking, coming in in response to that and a number of other issues raised and on the agenda today. Also, your messages talking about the real you.

Can I call it that? The side of you that perhaps those you work with don't know about or maybe they do know about, but your interests and what you do away from the day to day. Some brilliant messages coming in. I'll tell you, I will remind you if you didn't quite hear the beginning of the programme why I'm doing this in just a moment with my next guest.

But there's a message here which says, I work in an Oxford college, supporting students with practical welfare and disability issues. And when I'm not doing that, I sing in an all-female over-50s punk band. Of course you do. No name on that one. Does everyone know?

No reason for them to not. Have they come to support you? I want to know more almost. Another one here. I sometimes fit blinds, shutters and curtains. But at the weekend, I sometimes go to gigs around the world and DJ psychedelic trance, says Leila with a kiss. Oh, Leila, I want to come to that trance, right? Where are we going? Where's the next appointment?

I'm talking about this because I'm going to talk now to the so-called godmother of BMX racing, a bike racing pioneer in this country who has returned to a sport she left in her teens more than three decades on. Despite time away, she's now due to compete in the BMX Racing World Championships in May, aged 53 after finishing on the podium at this year's British Championships. So she's off to the World Championships, all while balancing her day job cleaning in a school. I'm delighted to say Sarah-Jane Nicholls is on the line now. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you very much for having me on.

What an inspiration. Oh, thank you. It's definitely something to behold. And I need to know how this has come about, because I understand it was actually while you were having a break from ice hockey. Well, that's right, actually. I played ice hockey um for 35 years so um from when I first retired from BMX in back way back in 1987 um I played ice hockey um I played internationally for Great Britain and for England um and then I um got back I got invited actually to Andover BMX track to talk to the children there about the 80s BMX, about the different tracks, how they were so different, how the bikes are so different. So I popped along. I chatted to the kids. They were amazed to see my 1986 BMX bike bike which is so different from the bikes today um and then they

invited me to have a go obviously on one of the new style of bmxes which are very very different uh the tracks are very very different there's a lot more jumps a lot scarier um i had a little go yeah and i thought wow actually this is it's not too bad they just the memories started coming flooding back i mean it was incredible um and from that moment on I I just grew the love just come flooding back the thrill the excitement the adrenaline and it grew from there and literally I took a you know I took last year to sort of train up and I was unsure whether to race at first I was just sort of using it for a bit of fitness because you have to be incredibly fit these days the tracks are so technical and a lot harder um so i done that i took the time to

train i then got inducted into the british bmx hall of fame in november which was a huge honor and i'm so proud of that moment um but that was when i announced that i was going to come back racing in the new year and and that's what i've done i've been racing this season initially i'd only intended to race regional race meetings and that would qualify me for the British Championships. So I'd done that. I raced regionals and I qualified. And as you said, I got a third place.

I got a podium at the British Championships, which was amazing. I mean, it's incredible. I mean, you're just sort of saying all this. You've had a really big break from this sport and you were a pioneer. I mean, I've seen a picture of you when you were in your teens I'm actually interested to try and see you now I think we've got I've got you up on a video link and you've just got your face quite close hello um

I don't know if that's because of the microphone but let's just see it's nice to see you and say hello because we're also doing this um in vision together but we're not in the same studio um you know there's a wonderful picture of you in your teens with so many trophies how did you get into it in the first place so first of all um yeah my parents i used to race schoolboy motocross so i was a little bit of a tomboy when i when i was a young girl um from the schoolboy motocross the bmx bikes started coming at the race meetings. They started, I mean, because before that you had choppers and grifters. But then these BMX bikes started turning up at the motocross meetings. And BMX actually stands for bicycle motocross.

And these bikes looked incredible. Everyone was talking about them. Like, wow, you can do jumps on these bikes. You can go around the track. And we used to try and go around the motocross tracks, which obviously are huge, on these BMX bikes. And every child wanted one. It was the early, very early 80s, 81. Everyone wanted that all the children,

all they wanted on the Christmas list was a BMX bike. And that's how I got my first BMX bike. Father Christmas delivered. And then you were amazing at it. So I guess I was very, very lucky. My parents were amazing. They took me and my brother to our first BMX race meeting, which was a national race meeting in Southampton.

And I won it. Yeah. So, I mean, to go from being middle of the pack in my motocross days, when I was just a kid, to actually winning, you know, this coming home, this trophy, this proud, like, 11-year-old girl, that was it. days yes but I was just a kid to actually winning you know this coming home this trophy this proud like 11 year old girl that was it I mean I was hooked you know my first place at a trophy that that was it BMXing was the thing to do and yeah I mean I was very very lucky I was in a very good time in the early days and it was a huge massive craze uh right from 81 up to around

about 87 which is when it did start to slow down. Do you like being called the godmother? I don't mind, honestly. There is actually a godfather, the name of a chap called Bob Harrow in America, and he's been named the godfather of BMX. So, yeah. You'll take it.

But just to go to, I mean, ice hockey and you, and also an amazing relationship with you in that sport, but menopausal issues creating difficulty there. What sort of things were going on? Yeah, so really it was the menopause that caused me to, or ended up the retirement from my ice hockey days. Also COVID hit at the same time. And honestly, it hit me.

It was like being hit by a train obviously I knew the menopause was coming I was coming up to 50 years old I knew but I just didn't expect to have I mean I know everyone is so different everyone got so many different symptoms whatever but I felt for me I had so many symptoms I mean and I didn't expect some of the ones I didn't expect some of those symptoms so I didn't expect some of those symptoms. So I was on the ice. I was struggling to, you know, I mean, I actually had the lack of motivation to even get off the settee was one thing. I mean, I was tired. I was irritable. I mean, I was having flushes.

I was having palpitations. And then I was trying to train and I was on the ice one evening and I said to my coach, I've got to get off. I was melting hot. You know, clearly I was having a flush at the same time that I was trying to train and all that body armor and that equipment that you wear for ice hockey um and I said I've got I felt so dizzy and I was going to pass out with it and at that point it was and it was really tough and then like I said COVID hit as well and I I just felt it's such a low point at that that time in my life actually it was I I ended up phoning up the doctor and that was that was a

lifesaver so I phoned the doctor during COVID it's hard to get I can remember crying down the phone to the doctor I'm like I don't know what's happening to me I just this was so yeah it wasn't I knew that I wasn't myself and it wasn't very nice it was a horrible time but I had amazing doctors and the doctor helped me you know obviously i've got some hrt and over the last couple of years it's had to be adjusted and the hormones levels whatever they fluctuated but i'm honestly in a really really good place now i'm thankful like too much the help i got from the doctor i mean that's that's a big important message in itself isn't it speaking to your doctor finding the thing that might not be hrt but whatever it is that that

helps you through that time but i i love the idea also that, I mean, I don't know if you're through the menopause yet. Would you say you are or are you still in it? No, I'm still in it. I'm sure I still have, even despite having HRT, I still do have night sweats. Definitely, like my memory, the forgetfulness is still there quite a bit. But what I love is you're on your way to being a BMX champion again. World champion, perhaps, a podium spot. I'm rooting for you here on this.

Thank you. That would be amazing. I'm going to train hard over the winter. I mean, to make the final at the World Championships would be incredible. A podium would be even better. Yeah, I'm sure it would be yeah i'm sure would be would be amazing but i suppose what i'm driving at is how have you how's your body and you and your mind got got into that space for bmx where it couldn't for ice hockey i mean what what's the difference there do you think i think

the thing being when i was playing ice hockey obviously i wasn't i didn't i haven't had any help and i wasn't expecting like say all those symptoms um once I got the help and I did a lot of research into the menopause and and not just like you know taking some vitamins different vitamins that help as well that sort of thing um yeah and definitely boosted boosted me up um to the point that I started feeling a little bit better and then obviously when I got into the the BMX and the invite back um everything sort of started getting getting a lot better yeah i was it's all been a combination of things and obviously exercise really you know that helps with the menopause as well i mean your mental health any exercise not just just bmx race well

i i think a lot of people be very inspired and we're hearing what people do away from their day to day i mentioned that you are usually in a school, you have a job in a school. And when you're not talking to us or doing interviews at the moment, or in fact competing, you're usually cleaning and organising a lot of things at your school. Does everyone at your school now know what you do?

Yes, they are really proud actually. I've worked at my school, Sherfield School, I can't mention, for the last 17 years um it's an amazing school and um they've given me i've been honored that the headmasters allow me to have the time off to go to uh south carolina next may but the pupils yeah i mean the pupils are amazing they they come up to me and they'll say oh how are you doing how's your racing um i was mentioned at the christmas carol service made to go up on the stage and you know they're all very proud proud of my achievements as well which is lovely and i hope that i inspire some of them you know i spoke to a parent the other day that she's going to come out and actually just just have a go on a bit just just so she can say

oh i've been on a bmx and been around the track you know i don't have to race or anything she actually do you know what i just like to have a go on a bmx on a track i said okay so she's gonna come with me the next couple of weeks what does it feel like to describe to those who've never done it and may never do it what do you get from it that feeling so i just forget this i mean there's the buzz there's the you get a lot of banter when you're waiting to race um with the other ladies i mean i race in a 30 plus female category and and there are quite a few of us that are actually in our 50s as well so we do have the we sit waiting to race and it's lovely because we have the talks of like women chatting in the room we have the chats of

the menopause and everything like that but then once we got on that start gate you know we're we're no longer not not only say friends we have respect for each other because we all know we have to get up for work and that next day. But, you know, you get a thrill. You get a buzz, energy. Also nerves. I mean, the tracks are a lot scarier. I mean, the jumps are huge.

It's been a learning curve for me. I've had to learn a lot of new skills and everything, and I'm still trying to perfect them. I mean, I was only last night spent like half an hour in my sports or at the school because obviously the rain was terrible practicing wheeling I mean me too I didn't know you were doing it I'd be wheeling how were we doing the same thing last night no I love the thought of that last night get out of the rain go and do that and at 53 doing that so it's a huge inspiration I was so excited to talk to you.

Do stay in touch with us. Good luck for next year. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me on. It's also prompted some brilliant stories of what people are doing away from their day jobs, which I'm going to read a few out from our listeners. All the best there to our BMX pioneer,

certainly as a woman, especially Sarah Jane Nicholls. Thank you. I'm an archaeologist, Emma Baidei, and the lead singer in a folk rock band by night. It's exhausting, but there's never a dull day. Another one, I'm a city business development and marketing consultant by day, and a falconer with a hawk in the house by night.

Of course you are. Love it. Keep it coming in. I always say all life is here on Woman's Hour. If you want to get in touch, 84844 is the number you need to text or on our various channels online. To return to some of the biggest stories of the week, the entertainment industry this week has been rocked by a fresh wave of allegations against a man known for his comedy work and acting in the UK and America, Russell Brand. Another woman has come forward and gone to the police with allegations of sexual assault by him after an investigation by the Sunday Times and Channel 4 last weekend alleged he sexually assaulted

four women. He denies all of those allegations. Now police officers from a unit set up after the Jimmy Savile scandal to respond to non-recent sex offences are working with Scotland Yard detective handling Russell Brand allegations. What is the entertainment industry's response? Is this, as some have talked about, comedy's Me Too moment? The BBC has said it's looking into all complaints linked to his time at the corporation, including what Alice, as we are calling her,

said about a BBC chauffeur-driven car picking her up from school when she was 16 to take her to Russell Brand's house. If you missed my interview with her from Monday's programme, you can listen to her account in house. If you missed my interview with her from Monday's programme, you can listen to her account in full. It's available on BBC Sounds. Just search for Woman's Hour. A lot of you did hear that and have been in touch. Channel 4 is also running its own investigations, but a new standards authority has been created. It's

been in the works, I understand, for a while. It's called the Creative Industry Independent Standards Authority, and I'm joined by the Chief Executive, Jen Smith. Jen, good morning. Morning. It's obvious that there has been for a while a need for some sort of regulatory body in the creative industries. If it's obvious, as some have said, why hasn't there been one till now? Well, this is the brainchild of Dame Heather Abat, who two years ago worked with our legal advisors, Field Fisher, looking at the issues that are recurrent in the creative industries and decided there has to be a professional independent body

that can deal with issues of problematic behaviour and make a proactive intervention in workplace culture in the entertainment industries. And that is how SESA was formed. It was also born out of the experiences of the singer-songwriter Rebecca Ferguson, who drew government's attention to her experiences within music and TV. So now we are at a place where we will be going live with our services next year. We have consensus from all of the UK broadcasters and the lead bodies in theatre and music to move forward. When did everybody sign up? So we had initial support last summer and we've agreed to move to the final stage of design earlier this summer and we're delighted that we'll be able to open our doors

and offer mediation, dispute resolution, independent investigations, but crucially help and advice. I'm not going to talk about the allegations this week but have the allegations hastened in any way your setup so i think we recognize that this urgent we're working as quickly and diligently as we can but i think it has focused the minds of industry leaders that this is an absolutely that's the phrase that gets used by politicians focus the the minds of industry leaders. Was it taking a while? Were they dragging their feet? We had some really proactive, constructive conversations with all the lead bodies in music and theatre particularly and the screen industries.

But obviously we want to have a broader consensus across the creative industries and also work across fashion, advertising and games. Who wasn't signing up that has now signed up in light of this Sunday Times report? We are delighted that all of the UK broadcasters are on board with us and we're in dialogue with the streamers and studios. Before Sunday Times paper this weekend, were they not on board? No, they were. We were in that dialogue. It is an interesting news cycle that highlights the need. It's a serious point I'm making though because

this has been in the works for a while and I'm trying to get to the point of understanding if it's been taken as seriously as it should have been because the Me Too movement in all of its guises has ushered in changes even if they were in the works and it sounds like this has been taking perhaps longer than it should have done. Progress has been made, but it is no longer sufficient to say that you have your own policies and procedures in place. If you look at the moment, you have three separate investigations running concurrently, all presumably running to potentially six figures. You know, investing in an independent body that can look at the issues as a whole is, I think, part of a very sensible answer to what is an endemic problem of workplace behaviours

in the creative industries. As the new chief executive, though, I understand you've been seconded from your position as director of culture and inclusion at the British Film Institute. So you've got a lot of experience to bring to this and I'm sure people want to get behind you. But it is quite a moment for you to make a statement

about urgency and about trust absolutely so that's why i'll just ask you again slightly differently do you think people had been in the creative industries dragging their feet until these allegations this weekend i think we are here we were always on course we have accelerated our timetable to go live uh next year so i think so you're not live till next year we aren't live till next. So you're not live till next year? We aren't live till next year. It's what you're meant to do now at the moment in the creative industry if you're having a situation with somebody.

When you go to our website, we signpost to existing support and advice. But what is missing is that independence. Yes, that's what I mean. I understand the reason for the setup, but why not set up now? Well, we are in the design and build phase. So we're expanding the team. We're working with experts, our legal experts, Field Fisher, the Institute of Regulation,

and PA Consulting, who build standards authorities all over the world. So the point is you're trying to set this up, of course, I know in a very proper way, but it takes more time. We are doing our due diligence very carefully. These are legally, know, legally, technically robust foundations that we are building. I'm not brushing over that. Just for time purposes, I'd really like to ask you, how bad is the culture of harassment and abuse in the creative industry? Well, I think it's not true to say that this is a thing of the past.

I think that while... Is it going on now? Yes. Have you had reports? We are aware that people are experiencing these issues, you know, in real time. So whilst progress has been made, there's still a need for this independent standards authority. You know, there is a gap in provision. And we are recognising that whilst there has been improvement, it's still happening to people. And my message to my colleagues across the creative industries, freelancers right now who are experiencing these issues please go to our website you can see existing provision we see you we hear you we can't do anything and we are we are getting established as quickly as we can let's say you're established yeah what are you going to be able to do let's say i'm uh somebody trying to make it in the entertainment industry i've got an issue some

people will be saying just go to the police. But if it doesn't meet that threshold or you're not quite at that point, or perhaps you don't trust the police, wherever you come at this from, what are you going to be doing? Because a lot of independent bodies have no teeth. Well, there are two points on that.

We're very interested in behaviour that is harmful but not criminal and bringing people to account on that. And equally, it must be a very lonely experience if somebody who has real power over you is inappropriately behaving towards you so we will accompany you should you need to navigate the criminal justice service that is a gap that we have identified that we think is really important so if you go down that route you can offer support yes mediation, those sorts of support services. Yeah, mediation, dispute resolution, investigations that are independent and supporting people who need to access the criminal justice service.

Can you fine anyone? We won't be looking at fines, but we will be looking at appropriate recommendations in terms of, you know, looking at the behaviour and what is the necessary intervention. An appropriate recommendation. So if a broadcaster or if an organisation has facilitated behaviour that is not illegal but is very difficult, let's use a range of words to describe it, what sanctions can you enforce anything? Or you will only be able to say,

we think you have created this sort of environment. You'll say it publicly, I presume. Yeah. And we recommend that you are what? This is the long term goal of the independent standards authorities, professionally behaviours over time in the creative industries. So we're looking to raise standards of behaviour. Of course.

I'm saying when the behaviour has been absolutely in the doltrums. Yes. And it's been really awful. what can you do well we would be independent and transparent about what behavior has occurred and what particular recommendations we would make in that case i'm sorry i know i sound like i'm absolutely going on here but what what sort of record can you give me an example of a recommendation so that women and men who are listening to this and want to come to your website you've asked them twice to do that, what will you be able to say to a place of work?

A lot of these people are freelance. My next guest will be able to speak to some of this, I'm sure. They won't necessarily feel confident going against their employer at that moment. Can you give me an example of a recommendation? It may be a sanction that that person should no longer be a member of a professional body. It may be an educational intervention. It may be recommendations to the employer about how that person works going

forward but we will keep you in touch with our progress we will enable you to good you know we would like we would like that and we know that this is absolutely necessary okay do you want to be able to find people i don't i think the fact that you know we will be able to look at patterns of behavior over time the fact that we will be truly independent the fact that we are a preventative body the fact that we want to make the creative industries safer and a good working environment for everybody there are so many benefits for us being in place you know so we will as you say talk again you've not set up yet but sounds like you've got a big job to do when you are fully in place.

But the chief executive of this new authority, which, as you said, seems to have sharpened minds for it to actually get going, is called the Creative Industry Independent Standards Authority. And the chief executive you were just listening to is Jen Smith.

While listening to that, I'm going to talk about a lot more than that, but comedy actor and writer who does know the entertainment industry well, especially after cementing her reputation with the double Emmy award-winning Smack the Pony, I Adored It, which she co-created and starred in, and many, many other roles. There have been many roles before and since, including Brass Eye, Two Doors Down, I could go on.

I'm talking about Dune McKeon. The experiences of some of that time are written in the aptly named My Lady Parts of the title of her new memoir. Dune, good morning. Good morning. Lovely to have you here. Just because we have been talking about what it's like perhaps to be a freelancer, being in this world, not necessarily having colleagues in that same way and then something happens and you don't quite know what to do. Do you think this sort of authority, this independent standards authority, would have been good when you were working? Oh, my goodness, yes.

And you are still working, sorry, but when you were in some of these roles? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally welcome this. This is very, very important. I mean, so many incidents I could talk about and are in my book. If there had been someone to perhaps go to. I just think I didn't know what to do. So many women don't know what to do, and men. So, yeah, I think this is a brilliant watershed moment. I mean, that's the hope, of course,

and we'll see how things pan out. But some have also been describing this week with these allegations as a potential Me Too moment in the UK comedy world certainly and I know that there's a there's a global side of this as well but what what do you make of that having worked in and around this space for a long time I really hope that this triggers like I said watershed across other industries as well you know we were talking about surgeons being assaulted while they're working.

We've talked about football. You know, it's quite a time, the police. So I think it's time for people to come forward and not be afraid. I mean, I know of two people who are sort of muzzled by court settlements and NDAs who are unsure whether they can come forward. We need people to work out how to work that. You know, if you're shut up by an NDA or a court settlement, what do you do about that?

So, I mean, we're not going to name names and I love live radio for what it is, but I'll just say that again. But I wonder just keeping it specifically to comedy. You know, that's a place we come for our escape. It's where we come to have our laughter brought out of us to shine a light on the world. Do you think there's something specific

about comedy that sometimes can lead to behaviour that has been, you know, some of it will be illegal if proven and some of it is very difficult, maybe not at that legal threshold as we were just talking about. I think it goes on in other places apart from comedy, on film sets and in theatre dressing rooms and across the board um but i think having been a stand-up

in the 80s it was a pretty ugly culture of boys club misogyny um i was very much i was often the only woman on the bill um it it sort of created this ground where seeds were sown for people like Russell to be able to, in the 90s, get away with the sort of things he was talking about. It was sort of banter. It was sort of lads club. It was acceptable. It was, oh, you know, get over yourself.

It was laddy. And that hasn't really, you know, supposedly alternative comedy was meant to break through that. We were getting rid of we weren't. You know, when I was on Halen Pace, my first TV job, I was shamed for having hairy legs and all the camera crew beamed up my legs onto all the onto all the screens around. Now, maybe that maybe that wouldn't. Yeah I refused to shave my legs I think the makeup lady came over scuttled over when I was in my very short frock um as Cinderella in the Haylen Place Christmas special my first tv job ever I was 22 and said we need to shave your legs and I went well I don't she said we need to shave your leg yeah yeah and I said I don't want you to well I'm afraid the whole the whole team has requested it so I was like uh

well and luckily I mean I was 22 it was my first telly luckily So I was like, well, and luckily, I mean, I was 22. It was my first telly. Luckily, I said, no, I don't want to. So then I walked back up on stage and the all-male crew, who'd been passing around porn mags, focused in on my legs and started singing, Gillette, the best a man can get. And my legs were just beamed up on all the screens.

And I stood there in my little dress. And it was just a it was a sort of it was an awful moment but it didn't destabilize me of anything it probably galvanized me a bit because even coming out of the dressing room at the end Jim Davison shouted down the corridor which I'm not allowed to say that but right well it's okay anyway said it now uh god not only has she got hairy legs she's wearing men's shoes because I had a pair of DMs on and it was you know I was with my mum. Doc Martens, in case anyone's thinking direct message.

Yeah. I mean, Jim's not here to tell us how that went for him. But you also mentioned about Russell Brannan enabling. I think what you're actually meaning there, as opposed to the allegations, is what he's on the record is saying. The type of comedy. We've heard some of the clips that were included. Yeah. type of comedy. We've heard some of the clips that were included, even on the BBC Airwaves, you know, when he interviewed Jimmy Savile and offered up his producer as a woman to Jimmy Savile. There are moments that, you know, Tim Davey, the director general of the

BBC, has talked about re-listening. I don't know if it was to that exact clip, but some of what was said then and sort of thinking, and it's not that long ago, you know, it wasn't in the 80s, it wasn't in the 90s. It's talking about alternative comedy and what that was meant to do. And you being at the vanguard of that, I'm very interested to hear for you as well. You know, I was very struck in your book as well. Some of the names that we still remember

and know have become household names. A lot of them meant from that era and the women haven't necessarily, some have, haven't become either the biggest earners or those household names. How do you take a step back from that and look at that now? Well, I just think, you know, we were all pitching shows in the 80s. We all had ideas that we wanted to. And I remember going in, I'm afraid I'm going into the BBC and pitching a very good idea.

And the producer just turned to a big picture of French and Saunders and said well we we've got our girls you know um we've got our girls so it's really hard to get anything away so we've got two we've got two women and yeah and that's it that's that's that's uh and you know there's there's comedians who had like six failed pilots and they would still be being given another one and women have gone well i've got this and this and this idea and it wasn't being picked up so you'd think after smack the pony there would be a raft of female led you know a couple of emmys can't hurt yeah well we yeah exactly i mean not that that's the only barometer of it but you would think yeah you'd think well should we lots of people on the uh i've been on a little book tour i've just been going, why, you know, can you bring it back? But there's so many other female shows that could be out there.

And it hasn't, it didn't ignite. What do you think was the reason it didn't ignite? Because, you know, some may say also it's just a horribly competitive industry, but you sound like you're driving at something else. I think I'm just as talented as a lot of men who got their shows made. I didn't get my show made. Your next show. My next show made or the show before smack the pony or the show before before smack the pony um women just weren't commissioned and

so they didn't get they didn't get there there was often a trajectory of going from stand-up to your pilot on radio to then your radio thing going on to telly. And I was often the feed in male comics shows. I'd be the dimwit secretary or the nag or the ball-breaking dominatrix or the... Yeah, there were a lot of... And what was brilliant... You talk about this, lady parts. Yeah, yeah.

What are the lady parts? And you've tried to disrupt that. Yeah, all the stereotypes that we were playing as sort of feeds. What was brilliant in Smite the Pony is we've all been straight women to the men and suddenly we we were the straight women and the funny women so it was great we were we were feeding each other and it was it was wonderful that we could um just play

in that space well you've rejected a lot of the stereotypes and i hadn't i mean i knew it was i knew it was how we spoke but i hadn't seen. And that's why it felt so fresh when I watched Smack the Pony. I knew it was how women were, but it wasn't how we were seen. We were not seen because we were either coiffed or dressed as a nurse or being very strict in a sort of office situation. We were just put into stereotypes and we were often just feeding the men's, the line before the gag was ours. And do you think it's better? Where are we now? It's better, but it's not great.

There's more amazing female-led content, but not enough. We don't see enough female stories. There's not enough. There are no sort of so few sort of hero stories for women. So there could be so much more. And I think there's a long way to go. You also share personal anecdotes, lots of personal anecdotes in this book.

You've also talked about there being at times when you were being more of a stay at home mother role as well. I say a role, it's not you acting it, but it's a role. It's a nice mum. It's a role. And then you wanted to work and also then how you navigate, but it's a role. It's a nice mum. It's a role. And then you wanted to work.

And also then how you navigate that, because there's a particular experience with your son, I should say, who was admitted to hospital with leukemia. And you talk about that in the book. I should say he's now in remission, I understand. But you really wanted to try and turn that experience as well to work. I know. But you had to navigate that, which is a big thing.

I obviously had to take time off and so did my ex-husband. We had to be in hospital. We had a baby and an older daughter. It was a terrible time. And of course, then I stayed home, but then we ran out of money. So I had to go and do a, it was a farce in the West End,

which was, I was just sort of crying all the time. And, but what's interesting is I went home one night and I remember turning on the TV and watching Russell Brand doing his stand-up and feeling so angry about him and just the just the way he was and the sort of comedy he was doing I turned the TV off and I sat down at the kitchen table and I started writing a show called Prima Duna, which was about my son in hospital. Because I thought, a woman just standing up on stage is a massive feminist statement.

It's so hard to be confident enough to do that. I thought, right, I need to write a show about this. And so then I had another year of writing and I wrote a show called Prima Duna about my son's experience in hospital, which, yeah, which I'm very proud of. Yes, and being able to perhaps use something and the learnings from that will have related to people more than you realize

yeah I mean people were um if you can make art that makes people laugh and cry I think that's always the best kind of art but also sometimes we do have to stay at home and that's wonderful I've turned down lots of work to to go actually I just don't want to be in a Winnebago with two babies. I want to be in the garden. And yes, I'm really poor, but I'm just going to stay at home for a bit. And then go, actually, I really want to get away from these kids. Actually, let me bring them with me. Let's see, you know, bringing your kids with you is also extremely hard. There's no creches. There's not extra money for childcare. That's another massive thing that has to change. Well, Dean, there's a lot in there in the book my lady parts and and as you do very well and i've greatly enjoyed you also make us

laugh at it so it's in the book it's out today congratulations thank you so much dean mckeon thank you for joining us many messages coming in and to doon's point actually at the beginning of our conversation why are we talking about one industry doon's hit the nail on the head it's happening all over uh all over the last week we were talking about surgeons this isn talking about one industry? Dunes hit the nail on the head. It's happening all over the last week. We were talking about surgeons. This isn't about one industry. It's about power. But yes, unfortunately, the lad lad culture,

and it's still on building sites, pubs, housing estates, some of it, and you won't phase it out over generational teaching. I'm male listening to Woman's Hour this morning. We know a lot of our listeners are male. Thank you for that message. This is all very well, but even this issue is very much in the public eye. But what about everyday normal,

powerless women? Where do we go? I'm trying to bring a sexual harassment case and I'm a teacher. It's everywhere, not just in the creative industries. And do you think I'm getting anywhere or will? Of course not. Sweeping and carpet spring to mind. No name on that message, but thank you for getting in touch and trusting us with an insight into your story. Well, we're just talking about bringing your children with you and childcare, I actually understand. The next person I'm lucky enough to talk to here has also brought her child with her today, a slightly older child, but let me tell you a bit more about her background first. My next guest was born in Sierra Leone and came to the UK at the age of two. Isata Domboya, trained as an NHS midwife, returned to Sierra Leone in 2018,

only planning to stay for a year and a half. But what she saw there changed everything she knew, probably I imagine about herself, we'll get to that, but also her job. Sierra Leone has one of the highest maternity death rates in the world. The latest figures show that 717 mothers are dying annually from every

100,000 births. What she saw inspired her to remain in the country and have a whole new mission. She is now the director of a new maternal centre for excellence in Sierra Leone due to be opening up next year. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for having me. Pleasure to have you. Why did you choose to return in the first place? Okay, so for me, it was an easy choice. When you sit around and see how many women are dying in Sierra Leone in comparison to the UK, when you see the outcomes and the reasons why women were dying,

it's a thing of thinking to myself, I've got all this experience, I've got all this knowledge here in the UK. I've got all these safety nets around me within the NHS. What do they have in Sierra Leone? And are these things really happening? Because there's always that doubt in my mind as to whether or not what you're hearing is what is happening on the ground. So the only way to find out is this the case, go and see. And for those listening who have not read about this or heard about it, why is the death rate where it is? What is the reason? Okay, so it's a multitude of reasons.

Over the years, there's been lack of investment in the healthcare system starting through as a result of the civil war, which lasted over 20 years within the country. And then just when things were beginning to pick up again, then we had the Ebola outbreak, which also decimated the healthcare workers that were there. Those that hadn't left because of the civil war were now dying as a result of Ebola. So it eroded sort of the education and the healthcare system. So standards dropped drastically and coupled with lack of investment in basic resources and basic health care needs, it's just been escalating. Your mission is to try and change things. And one of the things you were also very struck by, I understand, is the reaction when a woman would die who was with child at any part of the process.

Because it was treated not as normal but not in the same necessarily shock way that we would have perhaps in this country yeah tell us more I think when you're in a system whereby this sort of thing happens quite frequently you have to find a way as a human being to sort of numb yourself to the to the norm it, if you like. So in the UK, 20 plus years of doing midwifery, one maternal death that happened in the hospital that I happened to be on a shift on that night. She actually came from Sierra Leone, which was one of the other ironic things that,

okay, so the first time it happens, it's with someone from Sierra Leone. Within my first week of starting work in Sierra Leone um within my first week of starting work in Sierra Leone we had four maternal deaths and the midwives and the nurses there were like um yes she's died and next let's move on whilst I was still in pieces trying to figure out how and why and why are we not more concerned or worried about this? It's not that they're not, but I guess when you're in a system whereby everything is limited, you've done the best that you can, what else is there to do? This has happened. We need to move on and try and see if we can save the next person.

And this is the plan. I mentioned the new maternal centre for excellence. Yes. Sounds excellent. It is excellent. It is excellent. It's going to make such a difference because this is Partners in Health, which is the organisation that I work for, has with being able to fundraise to build this 166 bedded hospital unit for mothers and babies. It's also going to be a place, a teaching and training place, not just for the area within where I am, but for all over Sierra

Leone plus the sub-region. So somewhere where we can train our obstetricians, our gynaecologists, midwives and nurses. At the moment, what you have when people leave to come and get training outside of Sierra Leone, because we're only just now beginning to build up on those training institutions again, the chances of them returning are slim. So if you can have a place whereby they have access to all the resources they need, all the teaching, all the training, all the equipment, then you can train in country and thereby be able to retain your staff within there and keep on building on that and building on the quality of care that you can offer within there as well. And you as the director, are you still working in the NHS or how will that work?

So I come back and do bank shifts from time to time, but my work predominantly is within Sierra Leone for now. Because like I said, I went out there initially as a volunteer for a year and then it's like there is so much to do here. There is so much that you cannot walk away because you start something and you really, if you are inspired like I am and really love midwifery, I love being a midwife. And this is one place that I can really see that my value and my worth and my experience as a midwife is making a very, very determined change in the lives of women and babies there. It's amazing. I mean, what an amazing thing to be able to do,

but also to bring some of those experiences to bear like that. What do you love about being a midwife? That opportunity to be with a woman. Every day is a new start. Every day is a new beginning, right? So meeting someone new, being there with them, helping, supporting them, being that person that really is there just for them, regardless of what else is going on, whether the birth is going as she planned, whether things are happening as they ought to, but just being there, standing by her,

trying to understand and meet her needs so that she feels valued and she feels held, even with all the other external issues that are going on there. And at the end of it, hearing the sound of that baby crying to say that, yes, we made it. It's great. It's excellent. Sometimes it doesn't always happen that way. But even then, just being part of that experience and being able to make a difference in not just the woman, but the family around her, her partner, those other support people around there, and be able to make things just a little bit more bearable and easy for them and hopefully get them the results that they've been looking for I did mention bringing your child to work I believe that you've also been part of this

club today yes I have no not who we got what is it your daughter joy she was like mom I need to come with you she's's off college for today. And she's like, I'm coming with you. I'm like, but why can't you stay? No, but I need to be part of this as well because she's been so involved and invested. She's been out to Sierra Leone to see what we're doing. Really excited about it all

and really trying to understand that, you know, as a young woman as well, how can you make a difference in people's life and really work to sort of improve things in your own little sphere that you can so i'm really proud that she's part of my journey too i bet well um it's a it's a real thing to be able to to show your world to to your children and then if they see something in it as well that they can take from even better the it's also very nice to be able to ask you why you like being a midwife.

And, you know, I've just come back from maternity leave personally. And I remember one of the last interviews I was doing was with one of the heads of the nursing unions because of the strikes. And we've all had more strikes this week. And although, you know, to say it's difficult at the moment in the NHS is an understatement for a lot of people. It's also difficult as a patient, you know, to say it's difficult at the moment in the NHS is an understatement for a lot of people. It's also difficult as a patient, you know, with things being cancelled. But I think and postponed and all sorts of concerns about that. But I think it's also very interesting and perhaps spiriting to hear for people and uplifting for them to hear that your learnings in the NHS, your training in the NHS is going to Sierra Leone and helping. Yes.

So the NHS for me has been really not just for here in England. What we're doing here, being able to translate that into Sierra Leone. So one of the first things that I sort of thought about when I was there, like we need to build systems. We need to figure out the hows and the whys. This is what i've learned in the nhs and being able to translate that in sierra leone is just wonderful and i think that's a rare message at the moment and i think that's why i was trying to say it in this context that we we find ourselves in good luck with it it'd be great to keep in touch and hear how it goes when

it opens i started on boyer there many of your messages coming in to the woman who got in touch saying the over 50s punk band, when I was asking what you do away from work, you wanted to know more about? I did. We're called The Hormones. Of course you are. There are eight of us aged 50 to 78.

I'm Lisa, but I'm not quite ready to tell my students yet. Thank you so much. I've loved all your messages. Great first week back. I'll be back with you next week, but stay here for Woman's Hour with Anita tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

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