Woman's Hour - Iran's women's football team, Menopause and mental health, Katherine Priddy

Episode Date: March 9, 2026

Iran has a new Supreme Leader, the hard-line cleric, Mojtaba Khamenei, who has succeeded his father who was killed on the first day of the US-Israeli war against Iran. This morning, Iran's woman’s football team are facing building pressure as they prepare to leave Australia’s Gold Coast after being eliminated from the Asian Cup on Sunday. Fears for their safety has been growing since they failed to sing the national anthem ahead of their first match against South Korea last week. The decision prompted fierce criticism within Iran and in subsequent matches the players sung, or at least mouthed, the anthem’s words. Katy Watson, the BBC's Sydney correspondent, is on the Gold Coast where the tournament is being held and talks to Nuala McGovern about what's been happening. There has been a surge of understanding about the menopause and we are better informed on many aspects. However three quarters of women surveyed for a YouGov poll do not know that a new mental illness can be triggered by the hormonal changes associated with the menopause. Those figures come from a YouGov poll commissioned by the Royal College of Psychiatrists. The College wants to raise awareness about mental health and menopause and the implications for clinical practice. To tell us more about why this was needed now, Nuala is joined by Dr Lade Smith, President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Do you have a "hassler" in your life? If so, they could be making you age faster. That's according to new research funded by the US National Institute of Aging. A third of all respondents in the study said they had at least one hassler in their life - that is someone who is creating problems and making your life harder. The study also shows that the impact on your health is worse if they are a family member. Psychotherapist and writer Lucy Cavendish explains how to deal with that difficult person in your life.The singer/songwriter Katherine Priddy played her first gig at the O2 and has since performed at the BBC Proms, and at festivals such as Glastonbury, Green Man and Cambridge Folk, where she was awarded the Christian Raphael Prize for best emerging artist. Katherine tells Nuala about her newly released third album, These Frightening Machines, and performs her track Madeline. Why do some women who commit crimes come to be seen as a definition of evil? The Moors murderer Myra Hindley became an enduring symbol of female wickedness but she is not the only one. Professor Joanna Bourke has written a new book, Five Evil Women. It looks at the fascination with these figures and finds it often reveals as much about society as it does about the crimes themselves. Joanna tells Nuala why she chose these five women and they're also joined by BBC Radio 4 New Generation Thinker, criminologist Professor Stephanie Brown.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. from CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the program.

Well, it is a critical few hours for the Iranian women's football team as they prepare to fly home after competing in the Asian Cup. Some are asking Australia to step in and protect them will be in the Gold Coast in a moment to hear the details. Also, three quarters of women do not know that a new mental illness can be triggered by the hormonal changes associated with the menopause. We're going to hear from the Royal College of Psychiatrists

who commissioned the poll on why they want to raise awareness. Also today, we'll discuss a new book called Five Evil Women. It looks at how five of the most notorious women murderers were seen by the public, but also how the social and cultural context of the time may have influenced perceptions. Plus, silky tones off Catherine Pretty coming up later in the program. And could someone who is annoying you actually be making you age faster? A study has looked at the health impacts of hasslers, people the researchers defined as those, and I quote, who create problems or make your life more difficult, unquote. Women typically

had more hasslers than men, this study found. So what is going on? Do you have a hassler in your life? Is it time to cut the cord? Maybe you already did. How was that? Or could you be the hustler and might now be ready to change your ways? Well, you can text the program. It's 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or voice note, the number is 0-3-700-100-444. But as you were hearing in the news this morning, Iran has a new supreme leader, the hardline cleric, Moshaba Hamani, who succeeds his father, who was killed on the first day of the U.S.-Israeli war against Iran. This morning we're reading that the Iranian women's football team are facing building pressure as they prepare to leave Australia's Gold Coast after being eliminated from the Asian Cup on Sunday. Fears for their safety have been growing since they failed to sing the national anthem ahead of their first match against South Korea last. week. The decision prompted fierce criticism within Iran in subsequent matches. Not only have the

player sung, or at least mouthed, the anthem's words, but they have also saluted their hand to their heart. What may happen next is unclear. Katie Watson, the BBC Sydney correspondent is on the Gold Coast where the tournament is being held. Good to have you back with this, Katie, and Women's Hour. You've been at the hotel where the players are staying all day. Have they said anything at all since that decision not to sing the anthem? No, there's been very little communication with the team in post-match press conferences, anything to do with the war, any questions on that? They've been shut down.

And certainly in the hotel, there were a few players milling around today. But in terms of communication, in terms of being open to kind of approaches, they have people with them. And they're very watched, certainly. So there's been no understanding. about their decision not to sing the anthem. But speaking to people who were at the stadium last night for their final match, there was a lot of discussion about being proud,

that it was a huge step that they didn't expect would happen. But it's also caused concern for the team because, as you mentioned, in subsequent matches, they did sing the anthem. So why did they stay silent the first match and then decide to sing the anthem for the subsequent two. And the worry is about they're coming under pressure from the regime

to toe the line a little bit more. So what has the reaction been in Australia to, and I don't know if we can even call it their plight because we don't know how they're feeling? Absolutely. So I mean, certainly speaking to people here

who, you know, Australian-Iranians who are no longer in Iran. There's a concern that they've come under pressure from the regime. They're worried about their safety, a legitimate worry. And they are, have been taught, in the stadium, they were telling the women to, they were supporting them, that they would be able to help them if they wanted to seek asylum.

Of course, we do not know whether they want to seek asylum. They do not know each individual and their case. But I think the concern is if they decided not to sing the anthem, why and what the, what the repercussions will be when they go back to Iran, if they decide to stay, what the repercussions would be. for their family who, you know, many, many players have family back in Iran. Certainly the Australian government is so far kind of resisted being drawn into the discussion on the weekend. The foreign minister, Penny Wong, said that the government stood in solidarity with the people of Iran,

especially Iranian women and girls and noted that it was a regime that had brutally cracked down on its people. But, you know, activists, Amnesty International, they're all concerned about what the embrace. will be for the team. And I mentioned hours. I mean, do we have a timeline on when they need to leave or when they might? No. So we were at the hotel all day. It's unclear how long they're staying.

I mean, it was interesting because for most of the day, there were a couple of, there were a few players milling around. This afternoon there seemed to be a bit more tension. Certainly the person who's kind of in charge of looking after them, that seemed quite stressed out. What that means, who knows? But, you know, there's a lot of attention on them. There are journalists in the hotel.

There are also people, you know, who are a very, you know, anti-the-regime, Australian-Iranians who've been following their case and are concerned about the safety of the women. So, you know, there are a lot of different interests, and it's really unclear what was happening. Of course, even if people did want to stay or didn't want to go, there's also a war there and they might not be able to just logistically get back. So there's an awful lot of uncertainty about what their future is.

Katie Watson, the BBC Sydney correspondent on the Gold Coast. Thank you so much for bringing us up to date with that aspect of, of course, what has been the top story over the past week. There has been a surge of understanding about the menopause, and we're better informed on many aspects. However, three quarters of women do not know that a new mental illness can be triggered by the hormonal changes associated with the menopause. Those figures, they come from a UGov poll

commissioned by the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the college wants to raise awareness about mental health and menopause and also the implications for clinical practice. To tell us more about why this was needed now, I'm joined by Dr. Ladee Smith, president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Good morning. Good morning.

Were you surprised by those findings by the figures? It was 28% of women that knew, so about three quarters that did not. Yeah, I was surprised actually. Although it has to be said that, frankly, we don't know enough about the menopause. People, if you ask people, about 80% know that it can be associated with physical symptoms, lack of concentration, insomnia, you know, hot flushes. But very few people were aware that actually the menopause can be associated with a new, of a severe mental illness, a severe depression, bipolar illness, or exacerbation of a pre-existing

mental illness, a severe mental illness. And that's really concerning because these are illnesses that are eminently treatable. There is a complex interplay with, you know, the complex association with hormonal aspects. And there are certain women who are more hormonally sensitive throughout their lives actually. So we already know that we can do something about this. But of course, if we are unaware that the menopause is a vulnerable time for women when it comes to their mental health, then we're not doing enough about it. So you just allude to a couple there.

Can you expand the new onset of mental disorders that could potentially happen? So the evidence that we have now is that there's a 30% increase of developing a major depressive disorder. This isn't just feeling a bit depressed. This is a clinical depression that requires treatment. There's a 112% increase in the risk of a bipolar disorder compared with pre-menopause. And these are people that did not have these conditions previously. These people who didn't have these conditions previously. So this is new incidence of the disorder.

I think you summed a lot of it up there in one sentence saying we just don't know enough about the menopause. but where do you feel this is going or what can be done to try and intercept, I suppose, so that more women could be helped? So it's actually fairly straightforward. For a start, we actually don't have enough training in, you know, our health professionals, in medical schools, in nursing schools.

We're not really trained. There isn't mandatory training on the menopause, which is incredible considering that 50% of the population are likely to go through the menopause. Secondly, we need our policy makers, the parliamentarians, to create an environment such that our staff, the people, clinicians, understand about the menopause and what it means for people, what can happen around that time. Some people will have an absolutely fantastic time.

Some people will have a problem time. And you can actually identify and target those people who are likely to be at risk. And certainly for psychiatrists, what we're doing is ensuring that we have much better training for psychiatrists. You talk about being able to target those people, but how? work, what would be presenting? Because we often hear about brain fog, maybe a sense of rage, maybe a new

phobia or anxiety. But what you're telling me about is different. So we know that there are some people who, for example, there are some people who are hormonely sensitive. So there might be more likely to develop significant mood issues around the time of

reproductive periods in their life. So for example, during pregnancy or childbirth, and if you're more like to get a postnatal depression, then actually what we should be telling people is, look, when it comes to the perimenopausal period, you might find that you have a relapse of this condition that you had around the time of pregnancy and childbirth.

So actually, we need to be making sure that people are aware of the risks that they may have themselves. And also just letting women know that if these symptoms aren't improving, I mean, actually, to be perfectly honest with you, even if you're having brain fog, et cetera, you should be getting good menopause support, actually. So women don't have to have to live with the difficulty with concentration and the hot sweats and the insomnia. Because we know that there are hormone replacement therapies that are very effective that can support them with us. And when it comes to the mental illnesses, because sometimes people will need psychiatric treatment in conjunction with that hormonal treatment to help them to stay well.

I just see a message coming in and I do want to of course let people know if you're affected by anything that we're speaking about the BBC Action Line does have links to support because we're talking about severe mental illness at times as well. This listener got in touch and says I'm so pleased you're investigating the effect

that the menopause can have on women's brains. We lost our mum and younger sister to suicide both of them at the age of 45 when they were troubled by symptoms of the menopause. I'm very sorry to hear that and thank you for getting in touch. but you also want to consider people who have had existing mental conditions. So women to be aware how the menopause might affect them. Yeah, absolutely.

Because we also know that people who have existing mental health problems, particularly bipolar illness, other mood disorders, disorders like schizophrenia, are actually, unfortunately, have much worse time when it comes to the menopausal period. And that's because sometimes it might be. be hormonal exacerbation of the problem, but also sometimes there's diagnostic overshadowing. What I mean by that is that the symptoms that they may be presenting with are attributed to their mental illness when in fact it might be because of the menopausal, the menopause that they're going through because there's a lack of understanding about that.

And that's very difficult because it can mean that people aren't able to thrive. It means that people drop out of work. There are four and a half million women between the age of about 45 and 54 who are in work. And yet, I think there was evidence given to Parliament showing that 900,000 women dropped out of work because of the menopause. And this is ridiculous. Is it all hormonal? We don't know that yet. And that's the thing as well.

Considering the fact that women have been going for the menopause for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, we've got hardly any research and information about it. We should know much more about it by now. What we know is that that age group, middle-aged women, are a situation where there's lots of losses in their life. You may have. Are we talking 45 to 60 approximately?

Yeah, it's about 45 to 60. And we know that for that age group, there are a number of social and psychological things that are happening that are also really important. It's a really important time of transition. You know, you may still have children that you're looking after dependent children. You may have grown up children who are leaving home,

elderly parents to look after, you know, thinking about work, perhaps retiring, loss of a spouse. The change is in what does it mean psychologically to becoming, to being someone who's no longer able to have children, having grandchildren to look after. There's enormous amounts of psychological and social stresses as well as the hormonal changes that are happening.

So we don't know exactly what we can't pinpoint one thing or the other. And it's most likely that it's a complex interrelationship between all of those factors. So the Royal College of Psychiatrists has released its first targeted position statement on menopause. You mentioned better training, being aware. What else? So really, this is fairly straightforward. we already have specialists in the menopause. There are some fantastic GP specialists.

What we do need, though, is we need GPs to work with employers, occupational health positions, and also psychiatrists as well. And so we need a kind of multidisciplinary approach to ensure that people get an individualised plan for them and so that we can ensure that people who are suffering as a result of the menopause, whether it's their mental health as well as their physical health, that they don't end up having to drop out of work. We need much better workplace and policies

to support women in this age group as well. Another who got in touch says it's good to hear the programme on menopause now. However, can you also talk about symptom indicators for child-free people and not just those who've had children and could look at postnatal depression, for example? So the kind of things that we need to watch out for, actually what you'd watch out for if you were developing a significant mood disorder. So persistent low mood that doesn't improve. So, for example, being tearful for no reason, not being able to enjoy things

that would normally bring you great pleasure, not being able to sleep, appetite changes, it may be a reduction in appetite or an increase in appetite. Feeling suicidal, that's worrying, very worrying. And there is an increased risk of suicide in this age group, and that's very concerned. I saw some of those figures, the O&S, the Office for National Statistics, found the highest rate of suicide among women, is when they're between the ages of 45 and 49.

But of course, that is not a causation. They are just the figures as they stand. But I do have a listener who got in touch as well as that I had breast cancer, so I'm unable to take hormone replacement. And I've suffered terribly with depression and suicide ideation. I'm so pleased you're talking about this. Thank you. So it is people like my listener that the GPs, the various disciplines need to be able to be more aware of these issues to help. And the good news is that we know that there are, for example, cognitive behavioural therapy, there are other talking therapies that are very useful for women going through the menopause, not just for their mental health symptoms, but also for their physical health symptoms. And there are some really good programmes that are helpful in that respect.

if people need medication, then we can support them with that too. And I will, of course, say if you are concerned, any of these issues that we're talking about this morning, please do get in touch with your GP. I had a terrible time. There's another with mental health at menopause with a full crisis. I did manage to see a psychiatrist. I asked him if there was a specialist psychiatrist in women's mental health and menopause.

His response was, we treat men and women equally here. There was no support. I left the appointment feeling so lost and desperate. I want to bring up another line that some might have seen from a Mumsnet report, which says women are being let down by medical misogyny, something the Health Secretary Wes Streeting has admitted. What are your thoughts on that? Do you see misogyny in the medical profession? So the reality is that an individual doctor is not going to be someone who doesn't like someone because they're women. We have to upset, though, that for many, many years there has been a structural discrimination against women. And what I mean by that is that, you know, most scientists, most doctors for many, many years were men. Women weren't allowed to be educated. That meant that that changes then what gets researched, what gets thought about, what kind of health conditions get focused on.

And so if you like, there's a structural misogyny. It's not deliberate, but it does result in an inaction in the face of need. Women have needs in terms of their health. But unfortunately, women's health needs have not been attended to, because they haven't really been thought about. So women's health has lagged behind, and that certainly is the case when it comes to the menopause. And I do want to say, of course, there will be some

who would experience some of the symptoms. I know this because people are getting in touch with me. This morning, just from the moment you came on, Dr. Lade, others, of course, won't have any symptoms, but if you are concerned about anything, do go to your GP. And I do want to reiterate if you've been affected by anything in our discussion. discussion. The BBC Action Line has links to help and support. I want to thank Dr. Ladez Smith for coming in, the president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Thank you very much for

having me. Also, I want to read a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care. They say it's unacceptable. Women are facing barriers to the care and support they need. We are taking action, bringing a menopause question into NHS health checks, renewing the women's health strategy and investing an extra £688 million into mental health services, while recruiting 8,500 more mental health workers. Women now have access to a wider range of treatments alongside improved training for new doctors to help ensure faster diagnosis and support.

And I know it's something many of you were thinking about this morning as you get in touch. Now, do you have a hassler in your life? If so, they could be making you age faster. That is according to new research funded by the US National Institute of Aging, A third of all respondents in the study said that they had at least one hassler in their life. That is someone who's creating problems and making your life harder. The study also shows that the impact on your health is worse if they are a family member.

So how can you deal with that difficult person in your life? Glad to say I'm joined by the psychotherapist and writer Lucy Cavendish. Good morning, Lucy. Good morning, good morning. So how do you understand a hassler? How would you describe it? Well, I think a hassler is anyone that you know is really getting on your nerves. They're asking for too much stuff.

They're texting you. They're being demanding in your life. They're stressing you out. They don't take, you know, they don't respect your boundaries. They've got sort of this incessant noise. They want something from you. And I think we all know when we're feeling hassled. You know, if we tune into it in our bodies, we feel irritated.

We're not being able to concentrate. maybe we're feeling tearful and emotional. That is when we're being hassled. That is a hassler. And they come in many different shapes and sizes. Some of them can be quite small. Well, here's one. Oh, I understand.

My mum, unfortunately, is a hustler. She's very demanding off my energy in time. She's not elderly or incapacitated, but she's very emotionally immature. We had a fallout in 2025. It was absolute bliss receiving the silent treatment. We have since made amends, but I've got strict boundaries in place.

I mean, is that a way to avoid an impact on our health? Because, you know, I read out some of the issues there that it could be aging you faster, apparently. Yes, I mean, what we're looking at is how we translate our emotions into our body. And there's a tremendous amount of research around that. So what we all know, and I think we do know now, is that stress has a really bad effect on us. It's not just mental stress. It goes into our body. It ends up with maybe things like inflammation.

that's where the aging stuff comes in for it. Also, there's the mental and emotional load. If you're being hassled by, let's say, an emotionally immature parent, as this person very kindly shared, it's the emotional load of constantly feeling you've got to step in, make that person's life okay, look after them, sort them out, where actually that may not be your responsibility. In fact, it probably isn't.

So the key word you're looking for is boundaries. But in order to do that, what we have to do is let the person know. Because sometimes, I say this a lot to my clients, which is we don't have to reply. People get stuck into this loop of replying. It's almost as if it's never occurred to people that just because someone's texting you, emailing you, ringing you, asking for your attention, you don't actually have to give that person that attention if you don't want to. You can step back and say, now it's not the time. or just don't reply.

So that's one way through it. I have to. I'm sorry for interrupt you, but I just have to let that settle for one second with my listeners. That just don't reply. How would that go down with your hassler 8-4-8-44? Sorry, Lucy, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, you can choose what you engage with,

and some of us forget that. We forget that we have the right to choose what we want to engage with. So if you have a hassler in your life, one thing to do, and I say this to people quite a lot, lot is you have to start out with how you're feeling. As soon as we say to someone, you're hassling me and you're emotionally immature and you make me feel the person's immediately defensive and then you're normally in a whole world of pain. So you need to start with how I'm experiencing

this is. And I take responsibility of the fact that I haven't said this before, but I'm finding that you are hassling me. It's having a detrimental effect on my mental health, my physical health, and I want you to stop and respect my boundaries. That's it. End of conversation. That's all you need to say. The other person may not like it. It's about practising the art of disengagement because you do not want to be aging and ill

because you're not able to tell your hustler to go away and leave your own. The art of disengagement. I can see that being a book title. You know, also in this study, though, it said that women are more likely to be hassled, like not be the hustler. Well, this is rocket science. You know, we're lovely, you know, empathic creatures that feel we need to help people.

You know, we really, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. But we can be overly empathic. You know, we can really get into that sort of, I need to help everyone and save people and be kind and be good and I must listen. And at times, actually, what we really need to do is tell people to go away and walk away and get on with the rest of our lives. And sometimes I tell people, which sounds terribly patronizing, and I do it with my children. I hope they're not listening. This is kind of yes, dear moment. You know, there'll be ninn, ninn, I'll go, okay, yes, dear.

You know, and I just carry on doing what I'm doing. I'm going to flow over me. Blow over me. I don't get embroiled in the emotional turmoil. You can get disengaged. I have a couple of things I need to run by you. One, it also said, you know, your impact worse on your health. If the Hassler is a family member, like our listener who got in touch.

But not if they are a spouse. There's kind of a spousal exemption. Well, I think that's very interesting. And this is a very long thing that I'm not going to go into with the amount of time we have. But there's a duality. So when we become emotionally, physically, you know, spiritually, mentally involved with our intimate partner, you know, our one-on-one partner, you have the duality of love and care. But you also have the enactment of childhood wounds and all sorts of wounds. And in many ways, that's expected.

You know, that's exactly what happens with very close intimate relationships. So hopefully the two. of you are actually doing this together and helping each other out, supporting each other. So it won't have the same effect as if you're being negged at, you know, negging by a member of your family. And it doesn't have to be your children. Of course, it can be any other men. What if we are the hustler? Yes. Now, this is interesting. And I like this because lots of hasslers don't know their hasslers. They don't. They don't. Because what they want is attention. I want attention. I want drama. I want interaction. I want interaction. I want interaction. I

just want it, give it to me, give it to me, give it to you. They'll go on and on and on, because that's how they source their sense of self. You know, if we're not hassling people and people aren't reacting to us, we feel we've, you know, we're sort of dead and we flatlined. So we need to really think about our own behaviour and our actions. Are we demanding from people, constantly texting them, constantly asking them for stuff, constantly, why haven't you replied to me? I asked you this an hour ago. Really go in and ask yourself, am I hassling people? and how can I source my own self so that I don't need to keep demanding it from other people because it's not okay. Here's a listener. I'm worried that Hassler is going to be quickly taken up by those who want to demonise those in genuine need of care and compassion.

Yes, I hear that. So if you're in genuine need of care and compassion, that's very important. But you won't have that energy of hassling. Hassling is this nonstop, boom, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, reply, reply, reply. rather than that feeling of I genuinely need some care and attention. And that comes from a very heartfelt place, not from this sort of incessant, buzzy noise place. Interesting. Lucy Cavendish, psychotherapist and writer, 84844. If you'd still like to message us, do get in touch.

You can hassle me all you want. Lucy, we'll talk to you again. Thanks so much for stopping. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want. kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story.

Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Bye. Now, with me, in studio, the singer-songwriter, Catherine Priddy. She played her first gig at the O2 and has since performed at the BBC Proms and festivals such as Glastonbury, Green Man, Cambridge Folk, where she was awarded the Christian Raphael Prize for Best Emerging Artist. She has just released her third album, These Frightening Machines. And she has her own UK headline tour coming up in April and May. So she joins me in studio and will perform live for us as well, which you're in for a treat. So stay with us for that. Welcome. Hi. Thanks for having.

frightening machines. What are we talking about? Yeah, I mean I would preface this by saying I'm terrible at naming albums. I have a bit of a commitment issue when it comes to this. But it's a line from one of the songs, these frightening machines, which is on the album. And I feel like the album on the whole, there's some themes of kind of various systems and machines that I found myself part of over the last couple of years. And I think the songs are in general, just trying to kind of work through that and work out where my play. places amongst it all. Because here's a quote from you. At its core, I think these frightening machines explores the ever-shifting relationship I have with my sense of self as a woman, my body and my place in the world as a 30-year-old artist.

There's a lot in there. Unpacking a little for me. Yeah, so I wrote a lot of these songs over the last year or two when I was moving from my 20s to my 30s. And I think generally that kind of milestone birthday anyway as a woman comes with a change in expectation and conversations, certainly. And then as an artist, I sometimes worry that I'm not in the same place as a lot of my friends who are settling down and having babies and getting married and buying houses and things.

And I'm out here promoting my album. And I think there's been times over the last year where I've worried about that sort of thing. Isn't that interesting, though? Where do you think that that worry comes from? Like, what's at the root of it? I'm not sure. Because you're doing something quite cool. Yeah, well, I think so.

And I think my friends do as well. Well, I think it's just some kind of societal expectations, really, and I think we're all quite obsessed with hitting milestones and I've got my own milestones that I'm trying to be hitting. So I think I've just had to learn to focus on what I'm doing and keep making my art and enjoy making that and try and tune out some of the other noise. The noise.

Let's talk about matches. Yes. A feminist anthem. Yeah. Tell me about the inspiration for it. This was inspired by a tattoo. I saw it on a woman's back that said it was women, not witches, about the witch trials and the language that we use when we talk about it and how we still talk about burning witches at the stake and that sort of thing. Whereas in a lot of cases, they weren't witches.

They were just normal women killed for all sorts of reasons, not many of them actual witchcraft. And I got quite angry about it. And I wanted to write a song that sort of tried to reclaim the voices of those women. And yeah, I wanted it to feel like a bit of a call to arm. Okay, well let us listen to a little of matches. The lyrics are so clear. How important are they to you? Oh, incredibly.

Sorry, I think we just get your mic. There we go. Come again. Yeah, the lyrics are probably the most important thing for me when it comes to writing my songs. I studied literature at university and I grew up trying to write poems and things. So when I learned guitar,

I sort of naturally transitioned into putting those poems to music. which I now realize is called songwriting. And yeah, there's still such a big part for me. I can't rest until every word feels right in a song. Do you think that woman that had the tattoo, she has no idea, right? She's gone on her merry way, what she's inspired. If there is a woman listening who has that tattoo on her back, and I think it was at Folk East Festival in East Anglia.

We can track this woman down. Women not witches. Women not witches. On her back. Yeah. There can't be too many of them. No, you'd think not. Although maybe you're going to spark a trend, no pun intended.

You mentioned the guitar there. You self-taught and have a finger-picking style. What is that exactly? Yeah, so I taught myself from an Irish songbook when I was younger, so I learnt how to finger-pick. I'm actually left-handed, and I taught myself left-handed to begin with, and then my dad walked in and said, you know, you're playing that upside-down. So I flipped over, and I play it right-handed.

So you're ambidextrous. Ambidextrous, yeah. But I do have a slightly peculiar way of playing a pan. But it works for me. It definitely works for you because your first gig was at the O2. I know. How is that? Terrifying.

I had never performed outside of my village before. And I was a very, very kind of shy, unwilling performer. But it was a teacher from school. Encourage me to take part in this competition called The Next Brit Thing. And to my horror, I kept passing through the rounds and then ended up at the O2 in the final. Performing in front of McFly, which was, yeah, very surreal. but it did give me that little confidence boosts I needed to think, okay, maybe I should give music a go.

What did it feel like when you came off stage? Terrified? I used to shake so much that I'd have to play sitting down, which is something I've learned to control more now. But I think it was that, yeah, as a first gig, it was so surreal. But like I said, it did kind of make me think, okay, I think I'm enjoying this, so maybe I'm going to give this a bit more. Yeah, yeah, not nerves, excitement is the way I think about it.

I often think if there was nervous, particularly when I was first starting out, like put the emotions down into your feet. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, it's really helpful. So you can take that one from me. Your last album, The Pendulum Swing. I mean, I'm loving the album titles that you have. Reach number one on the folk charts. And it was about the idea of home.

And the songs included, I understand, recordings of your dad and your brother. Yes, and my mum actually is on there too. I managed to sneak all the family in there. Excellent. I'm a big fan of hiding little Easter eggs like that. albums and a lot of the songs are rooted in home in my relationship with home and family. But was it a tape recording? Did I read? Yeah, I found an old tape of my dad talking to me when I was about two, two and a half and there's a song called Father of Two on the album. And without

telling him, I snuck it onto the start of the album, the start of the track as a sort of atmosphere because it's him saying, sing us a song and I start singing twinkle, twinkle, little star. And it just felt right to have that on the album. Lovely. You are going to perform for us now. Yes. Madeline from the new album. Yes. And what do you want to get across?

This is a love song to other women in the music industry. When I started, I was often the only woman on a bill, and I'd be introduced as female guitarist, as if that's a genre. And I wish I'd felt, I think sometimes as women in an industry, in music and probably elsewhere as well, they made to feel that we're all in competition with each other and being pitted against each other, which I don't think is a healthy thing. Do you feel that's more in the folk industry or the music industry at large? I think it's in general.

I think women are compared in a way that men sometimes aren't. And at least that feeling of competition rather than community. And I just really want other young girls who are just starting out in music to hear this and realise that, yeah, we all need to pull together and support each other and not pull that ladder up. Yeah. How was it for you? I mean, you talked about at the very beginning at the transition from your 20. to your 30s.

And I'm wondering whether you've seen evolution within the industry when it comes to issues like being the only woman on the bill. Definitely. I think there's a lot more discussion now, particularly when it comes to festival bills and things, trying to kind of get more women on the bill and also moving further up the bills as well. I do still think there's a little way to go.

And still when I walk into a venue on a gig, nine times out of ten, it's just men that I'm dealing with in all areas of the performance, stage and kind of in front of house and things. And I feel like if we want to encourage more women to be going into music, we need to be having more women setting an example and being there in those spaces because it's intimidating and there's no reason for it to be like that.

Well, you are going to perform live for us. Now, with the song Madeline, I'll get you to pop over to your guitar and your microphone as you get ready to play the love song that you. have towards the women in the industry. Thank you, Catherine. That was just beautiful. Catherine Priddy, her new album, These Frightening Machines, is out now and she has a UK headline tour coming up in April and May. How lovely to have that interlude with her. I want to let you know a new episode of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life has just dropped.

This week, we're tackling a phase of life many of us don't feel prepared for. That is looking after our parents as they get older. Care home manager and nurse Debbie McGuinness joins me to talk about the shock and confusion that can come from switching roles with mum and dad. Alongside her, we have the elder mediator, that is Tracy Adamson. She explains why resistance is often the first response we encounter when we try to intervene. And what might be behind those feelings? Debbie starts us off.

There's no definitive time of when the parents become the people that need care. Yeah. As a daughter, it's like, well, when did I become the people? carer. When did that happen? I never saw that coming. That takes quite a lot of getting used to. I can remember my own father would often say to me, Deborah, I'm the father and you're the daughter. So there was that switching roles, but feeling that you need to take that responsibility. I think underneath those feelings of resistance, try and think what are the feelings as pushing that. And it is often fear of loss. Yeah. Fear of loss of control, choice, privacy, way of life.

respect. If you can ask about what's underneath that resistance, that can be incredibly powerful, you know, really listen, validate those feelings and that can be the beginning of reducing the resistance. That's the Woman's Hour Guide to Life caring for aging parents and you. You can find it in the Woman's Hour feed, which is only on BBC Sounds. Thanks for your messages coming in. Here's one. I'm listening to your discussion on being hassled. I might be guilty of being the hustler. It's often because I'm frustrated that others aren't pulling their weight, especially when it comes to domestic work.

I think many women can relate to feeling like their shouldering most of the load. We'd love to hear more from others about how they navigate these feelings. 8444-8-4. But I want to turn to this question. Why do some women who commit crimes come to be seen as a definition of evil? The Moors' murderer, Myra Hindley, became an enduring symbol of female wickedness, but she's not the only one. Professor Joanna Burke has written a new book,

Five Evil Women. And it looks at the fascination with these figures and finds it often reveals as much about society as it does about the crimes themselves. We're also joined by our Radio 4, New Generation Thinker, that's criminologist, Professor Stephanie Brown. And I do want to let you know

with a warning that this discussion may include reference to sexual violence and murder. Good morning to both of you. Joanna, did you choose these five women, perhaps you'd like to tell our listeners who they are? Yeah, I mean, I've been working on violence for a very long time, about 35 years, I guess. And it's mainly been male violence that has really interested me. I mean, how can these people do such horrendous deeds?

So I thought at one stage that, well, look, actually there are some women who also have committed just horrendous, atrocious acts of violence. So in the book, I initially started out, looking at nearly two dozen women. But in the process of writing it, I whittled it down, if you like, to five women who seem to really epitomize evil within femininity. And these are Myra Hindley, Rose West, British people. There's Aileen Warnaws.

There's American. There is Carla Faye Tucker, another American, and Carla Hamulka, a Canadian. And I just wanted to focus in on these five women because there seemed to be so many simplistic narratives about them. And I just wanted to go beyond the sort of sad, mad, bad, characteristic, characterizations of these people. So you begin with Myra Hindley. Her crimes are horrific and well known. Why did you start with her? I started with her because I think particularly in the British context, She was lightning rod for a huge number of anxieties in the 1960s all the way to the 21st century.

So there's a longevity about her crimes and commentary on her crimes. And one of the things that I was really concerned about is a lot of violent criminals are labelled evil. I wanted to look at women who had this label affixed to them, not just for the period and they can. were in trial, but for decades. And Myra Hindley is a classic case of that. I mean, even today, she, you know, people have very strong views about her. And the crimes were horrific. And there would be many that says she rightly is the embodiment of what people would say is evil.

Yes. I mean, she killed five people. Leslie Ann Downey, John Kilbride, Keith Bennett, Pauline Reed, and Edward Evans. She was aged 21 to 23 when she committed these crimes alongside a sexual sadist Ian Brady. And there was really good reason why people at the time and subsequently have looked at her as sort of the most evil woman for what she did. Because, you know, there was something really upsetting to see a woman who actually, instead of protecting children, was actually active. not only in helping kill them, but also in sexually molesting at least one of these victims.

Stephanie, I want to bring you in here. Your research focuses on 19th century female killers. Mary Hindley was convicted in 1966. But do you see parallels? Yes, absolutely. And I think Joanna sort of hit it on the head when she talked about simplistic narratives. I've spent years reading thousands of Victorian newspapers. And when they report on women they kill, I see the same reoccurring narratives.

So violent women are labelled as mad, bad or sad. And this depressing rhyme, it casts women as either having issues with mental health, being monstrous aberrations of femininity, or as victims driven towards violence. But for women like Myra Hindley, when they've been cast very much in this sort of bad category, we see sensationalist coverage of the evil woman or the femme fatale drawing on tropes of sexual deviants or we made a pushed out of femininity altogether and made sort of a monstrous figure, somebody sort of threatening femininity from the outside. Another person who you mentioned, Joanna, is Carla Hamulka.

I wasn't familiar with her actually until I read the chapter in your book. Can you give us a very brief synopsis of who she was? and why you decided to focus on her. Yes, Carla Hamulka was a white, conventionally beautiful young woman again in her 20s who fell in love with a sexual seder. She didn't realize it at the time, but he had already committed sadistic rapes even before they met. She was 17 when they met.

Together they killed three people. Tammy Homolka, who was actually her sister, Leslie Mahaffi, and Christine French, and she was also involved in the rape of Jane Doe. The reason this is a really important or interesting case is that initially she was considered to be a battered woman, and there's no question that she was battered by her partner and then husband, Paul Bernardo. But she then did a plea bargain, so she got convicted of, for only 12 years, prison, whereas of course, Paul Bernardo got life as a dangerous offender. She did the plea bargain. After the plea bargain was signed, it was discovered, tapes were discovered showing that she was

actively involved in the sexual torture. So again, we have suddenly, we get this shift from Homolka being a battered woman and a victim to her being herself as sexual sadist and murderer. But they couldn't go back on the plea deal. although the authorities decided it would be failing off the court, so to speak. So she did serve 12 years, which was very different, obviously, to Myra Hindley, who died in prison. But what about those cases, Stephanie? Hamalka's case in the 1990s, 30 years after Myra Hindley. What do you see between the two when it comes to gender and how these cases are reported,

viewed by the public? So, I mean, where we end up, we see a lot of similarities. We see a line straight from the 19th century through to the 1990s and beyond of this evil woman, this sexually deviant woman. But we start with Hamulco. We get a space of victimization. We get this idea that she was controlled, that she, that her husband was the evil one and she was coerced into these crimes.

Something that we could have seen with Myra Hindley. There are, in her own word, she talks about, she talks very much in language of coercive control, about victimization, about viewing her husband as a god and worshipping, a very cult-like language, but we didn't recognize that at the time. And the sort of major shift that happens is developing sort of criminalogical theory. So we get ideas like battered women syndrome, this idea that,

about the psychological effects of women experiencing long-term domestic abuse can be used to explain why some women who experience repeated violence from a partner may feel trapped and fearful and unable to leave and to the extent that maybe they can be controlled into committing these awful crimes. So our development of criminalogical theory jumps massively in this period. In the 1970s, it's the height of sort of, sort of, sort of feminist criminology and starting to ask, well, what about female criminality and what about female victimisation? Yes, about how much agency a woman might have and some of it,

as Joanna, you were documenting when a crime would happen, there might be a pushback against what would be considered a too permissive society for women at that time, particularly in the 60s. But I do think perhaps at what is at the heart of this is whether people, and in this case, women, can always be rehabilitated. Some would believe definitely not in these types of cases, Joanna. I think it's a really difficult question because clearly if you are the victim or if you are families or friends of the victims,

then there is a certain need to hit back, need to punish this person. Certainly, I mean, I've been involved with violence for a long time and as a witness of violence and it does stir up these really vindictive arguments Myra Hindley is a really good example of this because if Myra Hinley was a man, she would have been out after about 12 to 15 years for her crimes.

That is the average time that men serve for committing the crimes that Myra Hinley are committed. She served 37 years in prison because it was politically impossible for home secretaries to release her. And I imagine people knew so much detail. however they might have thought that she was not able to be rehabilitated. And you talk about that word vindictive. Other people would call it justice.

Yeah, absolutely. I think we need to think very carefully about what we mean by justice when it comes to people. And in this case, we're talking about women, but it's not only women, who commit crimes of great atrocity. You know, do we really think that prison works? There is a huge social scientific evidence that it doesn't work, that it actually doesn't help with the rehabilitation. It doesn't help with victim pain and victim loss. And I keep thinking about, you know, are there better ways, more effective ways to make us safe? Have you come up with some?

Yes, I think we need to think about the causes of violence within our society. Now, there will be, I'm a non-castful feminist. which I mean that I think that prisons are not very, not effective. You are never really in favour of prisons. No, I actually do think, I'm not an absolutionist here, I do think that there will be people who will need to be restrained for their entire life simply because they always will pose a danger. But none of the five women that I look at in my book fit into that category.

They were all demonised so much more than men, male criminals, were demonised so that in fact the men they committed, the crimes with, I actually have totally fallen out of public consciousness, whereas the evil label has been affixed permanently to all five of these women. Well, I think if we talk about Myra Hindley, I do feel with Ian Brady, I do feel that label evil did stay with him and does to this day. But it is an interesting concept. We do know that the government say the current prison system is not working for women with a stated aim to significantly reduce the female prison population, although they have reiterated when it comes to serious crimes, there will be some

that would not come under that particular tranche. I mean, Ian Bradley, Brady, you know, was a sexual sadist. He was clinically insane. He fits, you know, one of the reasons why it's sort of easy to understand him is because he was a violent man and a violent man. and has a long history of crime. I mean, and that depends also when people looked at their backgrounds. Was there something that was a mitigating factor, for example?

Just before I let you go, in our last 30 seconds, Stephanie, do you think people always judge criminal women different to men? I think they do. I think female violence, even today, is so shocking and abnormal. We still reach for these familiar labels to explain. it. We have to put a label on it. We have to understand why they did something that goes so against normative femininity. So interesting. Joanna Burke's book, Professor Joanna Burke, is Five Evil Women. It's out now. I also want to thank Professor Stephanie Brown, one of our new generation

thinkers from Radio 4. Great to have your insight. I do want to let you know on tomorrow's Woman's Hour at this year's Winter Olympics, recorded the most equal gender balance of athletes to date. Tomorrow we'll explore how the Winter Paralympics stacks up, hearing live from Milan Cortina. Also, we'll be joined by the debut author Anna Brooke Mitchell to discuss her new comic novel, Mother Faker, whose main character attempts to fake a pregnancy to get some time off work. I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. What would you do if your deepest secrets were held to ransom? In 2020, every patient who had used a finished psychotherapist service called Vastamor had their therapy notes stolen and held to ransom by a faceless, remorseless

hacker. It could be some extortionist gang from Eastern Europe or it could be somebody living next door to me. I'm Jenny Clemen. Join me as I discover just how vulnerable our deepest secrets can be. I think I'm going to have a heart attack. From BBC Radio 4 and Intrigue, this is Ransom Man. Listen first on BBC Sounds For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid, don't want to have a kid, don't want to have a kid.

I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, This is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.