Woman's Hour - Irish singer-songwriter Imelda May

Episode Date: April 16, 2021

Imelda May is an Irish singer/songwriter discovered by Jools Holland when she supported him on tour and subsequently appeared on Later ... with Jools Holland in 2008. She was the queen of rockabilly, with a Fifties-style frock, trademark quiff – and a voice compared to legendary blues singers such as Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan. The quiff is long gone. She joins Anita Rani to discuss her music, her style and her latest album '11 Past the Hour' and the track 'Made to Love', with inspired contributions from feminist thinkers and activists, Gina Martin and Dr Shola Mos-Shogbamimu.A review into the way the justice system works in Scotland, when hearing rape and serious sexual offences, has called for new specialist courts where a judge could sit without a jury. The proposals are part of a package of measures aimed at stopping the 'retraumatisation' of victims by their experience of the court system. Lord Justice Clerk, Lady Dorrian - Scotland's second most senior judge, and Sandy Brindley, National Coordinator of Rape Crisis Scotland - one of the groups which took part in the review process - join John Scott QC, president of the Society of Solicitor Advocates. The idea of living in a van is not an unusual as you may think and many women are doing it. Search under the #vanlife on Instagram and there are over 9.5 million posts, with seductive photos of people who have refurbished cosy vans for holidays and adventures abroad but also those who have traded living in houses for a permanent life on the road. Anita is joined by George McKimm, who lived in her van from 2016 until 2020, and Missy, who currently lives with her husband Dom, daughter Rosie and their pets. They have been on the road since 2019 in their Sprinter van which they call the sub.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Imelda May Interviewed Guest: Sandy Brindley Interviewed Guest: John Scott Interviewed Guest: Valerie MacGregor Interviewed Guest: George McKimm Interviewed Guest: Missy

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour. Today I'm going to promise you some music, some brilliant music by none other than the fabulous Imelda May. And it's Friday, so we're off on an adventure. We're all going to imagine a completely different way of life. Go with me on this. than the fabulous Imelda May. And it's Friday, so we're off on an adventure. We're all going to imagine a completely different way of life.

Go with me on this. Have you ever thought about selling everything up, the lot, jumping in a van and hitting the open road to see where it takes you? Anyone? No? Just me then. And the guests I'll be talking to later on in the show who did just that and are now living a nomadic life with a dog and a cat in tow. How do you keep a cat happy in a van? We'll be finding out. We're also discussing the recommendations looking into reforming rape trials in Scotland.

One of the suggestions is to remove the jury and also to try and make the experience less traumatic for the survivor who is going through the legal process. It's a very sensitive and difficult subject to talk about, but if you would like to tell us about your experience and share your thoughts, then please contact the show. We will, of course, keep your identity anonymous. You can text us on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate and do check with your network provider for the exact costs. And, of course, you can contact us about that or anything you're hearing on the show today. It's at BBC Woman's Hour on social media, or you can email us through our website. Now, I promised you music. Imelda May is an Irish singer-songwriter discovered by Jools Holland when she was supported him on tour and subsequently appeared on Later with Jools Holland in 2008. She was the queen of rockabilly with a 50s style frock, trademark quiff, and a voice compared to legendary blues singers such as Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughan. And she's performed alongside

the likes of Lou Reed, Bono, Smokey Robinson, Van Morrison, and featured on albums and live tours with Jeff Beck and Jeff Goldblum. And she joins us now. It is Imelda May. Welcome to Woman's Hour. All the Jeffs. You've supported all the Jeffs. Do you like that intro? What an intro. I was thinking, God, I want to be more. Yeah, you've done all those things. Now, as I said, I introduced you as a rockabilly with The Quiff, but The Quiff is long gone and there's a brilliant new album out.

Long gone. Brilliant new album out, 11 past the hour. But there's not connection between the two, is there? The Quiff went for the previous album. Oh, two albums ago. It's like six years or something ago yeah yeah no that's long gone i'm due i'm due a new haircut i'm sure soon yeah well they're opening up so hopefully yeah you look great though the fringe is fab so tell us about 11 past the hour the new album the sounds and the inspirations behind it um well it's just it's released today release days today so i'm very very excited about myself um but when i was writing that

during lockdown i brought out the last album went really well it was a change in direction for me and then this album was supposed to be out, but lockdown put everything back. And then I released a poetry EP, which I was told I was mad to release, called Slip of the Tongue. And that went really well. And I really had such wonderful, heartfelt feedback, you know? Yeah.

And so it really spurred me on for this one. And this is called 11 Past the Hour. And I started writing a couple of years ago. And the reason why I called it 11 Past the Hour, it was the beginning of a journey for me that I'm still on. So I started to see 11, 11 everywhere. I don't know if you've ever gotten that. I haven't.

Yeah, I haven't, but I have friends who talk about it a lot. So yeah, explain what it is. Yes. So I just think, what? It got got me curious so i started looking it up and then as i delved into it it opened this world you know i fell down a rabbit hole of of um discovery that it's that it's a call of the universe and many cultures and ancient cultures for an awakening and intuition and a connection with you know a greater love whether that be I suppose whatever love that is whether it's God for you or spiritual or the universe which seems to be what's calling what's calling to me at the moment so I start writing I was writing all about love in all of its forms and so this album is very

it's very positive which i think we need now for sure i do um but it's also about discovering love in all of its forms and valuing love in all its forms not just because we crave romantic love so much and as a writer you write about it a lot and there are love songs on there of course which um because i'm a i'm such a romantic um despite what life throws at me but um i think um yeah it's worth fighting for i think bigger love is worth fighting for yes and so and before i before i stop and i just have to say to you i remember once having a heartbreak you know and i was crying for the love that i lost that i thought it was going to be and all that and it

dawned on me my best friend was standing in my kitchen with two full bags of shopping made me sit in the corner on me nice comfy chair handed me cups of tea handed me tissues and I thought that's love yeah 100% love and that's just as worthy if not more so than anything else that that is love oh Imelda we're gonna have a burst of um of the out from a clip from the album 11 past the hour but if what what Imelda's just told us has just inspired you, you know, what does love mean to you? If you've got a nice little story about love, text in 84844. Why not? It's Friday. Let's talk about love. Oh, I love that.

Yes. Let's have a listen. This is 11 Past the Hour. It was 11 past the hour. Darkness in the air. La laid down on wildflowers, the moonlight didn't care. Give me your heart, I'll hold it with mine, so you can feel free, my love Free for a while Dance with me, darling Dance with me, darling Forget the world

I'll hold you in my arms As we twirl around Hide your innocence and all your sins And all the love in the world Won't be enough to help you sail through the storm You created yourself But you're not to blame oh amelda it's stunning absolutely stunning look my unwaxed arm hairs are standing up it's like you're singing from your soul absolutely um and lots of very cool collaborations on this

album noel gallagher miles kane and Ronnie Wood. How did you get Ronnie Wood involved? I met Ronnie when I was 16 years old. That's where I started to sing, was in this little basement club in Brussels in Dublin every Monday night and I was adopted by all the local musicians and I was up singing blues and Ronnie Wood came in one night jumped up on stage and started jamming and I had the best time it was a wonderful moment and then I didn't see him after that that was it and then I was working with Jeff Beck and Jeff said I want to introduce you to my friend Ronnie and I said we've met before but I don't

think he remembers a long time ago it was like 30 years or something and he said oh my god you're that kid that was singing the blues he did remember I remembered and then we picked up where we left off we were at a charity event and he said what was that song we did and we did it again and uh we've kept in touch ever since and i love him dearly so i was very very happy that um i was singing on his last album so um i was delighted that he played on mine yeah i'm sure he's delighted to be on the album as well it is it is a brilliant album out today and and the new single made to love this isn't this is quite there's a story behind this. Tell me about it. Made to Love, I wanted it to be an anthem for love.

I wanted it to be a, love is worth fighting for. And I wanted it to be a rally, you know, where you'd be at the gig and throw your arms around each other when we get to gigs and connect with the stranger beside you but I I realized so many people have fought and died for love and so I wanted to name check them all and and kind of just shout about it very simply you know some of the lyrics um I twist around and there's a point in the middle where I just go for what it is I'm saying because I want it to be very simple and clear what it was that I was saying on it. Because it's a collaboration, isn't it?

It's a collaboration between, yes, you tell us who it's between. So I asked, I went to International Women's Day a couple of years ago that was hosted by Annie Lennox and I was so inspired. Oh my God. I was singing at it and Beverly Knight was at it and oh, we had the best time. But I've jumped up on my feet on many occasions, you know, because I was hearing just such amazing women speaking,

such common sense, you know, just brilliance at its best. And Dr. Shola Moss Shogban Minmu and Gina Martin were two of those and i followed them since i followed them on social media and i sent them messages telling them how much i loved them when i was big fans and then i i thought i would love to have their voices on this song because they fight for love on a daily basis and they get the negativity from that on a daily basis and all

that entails and we reap the benefits for it all so I thought I really want them on this song their voices in more ways than one and they both said yes and we had the best day in the studio we really rocked it out and Ronnie was there and um it was just magnificent to have them join me I'm such fans of theirs oh and and like I said they fight for it all the time. So it was lovely to hear them sing for it, you know? And I love the story. I love that it's

these incredibly powerful women who have inspired you to create this piece of art. Let's have a listen to the clip. This is the single Made to Love. You killed me twice You hung me high

Blood in my eyes A sacrifice A crowded round Crucified Dragging my bones Behind the lies Dress me up In skin and robes

Hit myself Among the wolves Gonna kill me again In the name of fear When all I'll do is love don't be afraid afraid of love there is never fear in love Amelda, it's an anthem. You can see my hands are in the air. We've had a tweet in from Sarah, Amelda.

She says, so full of love for Amelda. Friendships are everything. During lockdown, my love has been for our women's running crew of six. We all adore and support each other in so many ways, much more than exercise. Isn't that amazing? Yes, I love it. I love that.

Whilst I've got you on, I've got to talk about your upbringing. So you grew up in the Liberties area of Dublin. You're the youngest of a large family. Were you listening to a lot of music? Tell us about the house you grew up in and the youngest of a large family. Were you listening to a lot of music? Tell us about the house you grew up in and the music you were listening to. Oh God, it was a mad house. A mad house full of

eccentricity and love and voices and shouting and eating and freedom. My brothers and sisters, we had two bedrooms, so there was no locking yourself away in your room, you know. We had one record player and so I got to listen to all my brothers and sisters there was we two bedrooms so there was no locking yourself away in your room you know you had to be one record player and so I got to listen to all my brothers and sisters records so I was listening to everything from you know the Beatles the Carpenters Nat King Cole

um Kate Bush David Bowie um Boney M it was like everything that anyone was playing i listened to and it was magnificent but my mom and dad are just as i get older that i realized how special they they are that i that i i thought that was kind of normal that they had equality in their relationship and before i'd ever heard of even the word of it they supported each other ma'am your mum your mum sounds amazing tell us a bit about your mum because she had you later in life didn't she ma'am does everything in her own time she does everything when she wants and how she wants and she's strong-willed and wonderful and so dad is the eccentric he was the dancer you know and uh he says he's the kite and she's the tail. And they balance each other out, which is gorgeous. But ma'am, she married later on.

She's 94 now and she was born in 1927. I think I've done my maths right. And she there was a lot of pressure to get married young at that time. And she said, no, I like my job. I don't. I thought that time they had to give up work. And that was tradition. She said no I like my job I don't I thought that time they had to give up work and that was tradition she said I like my job I like dance and I like my friends so she didn't get married till she was in her 30s and dad was in his early 20s and um they fell madly in love and she had her babies later she had me at 48 and my first memory with her is of her putting me

in a pram and heading off to a protest, you know, and that's what she'd do. She'd fight for things she wanted. She fought for computers

in our local area because there were none. She fought for a scholarship from the local art college that rolled into town and said, you have to support the local children.

She's just an amazing woman. What's your mum's name? What's mum's name? Madge. Madge. Madge sounds phenomenal. No wonder she brought

such an amazing daughter. And you have been writing since you were 13? I've been writing since I'm 13. I can't say that the song, I remember the song I wrote when I was 13. It was awful,

but it was the start. And you're incredibly busy. You've got the album which is out today, but you was the start. And you're incredibly busy. You've got the album, which is out today, but you're also making a film. I know. I'm sitting, looking off the sea. Oh, look at the view. Where are you?

That is beautiful. Absolutely stunning sunshine, blue sea behind her. Lovely. I'm Sunny Cornwall. I'm making a beautiful movie, Fisherman's Friends 2. I've joined the original cast and Maggie Steed and James Purifoy and just amazing.

I'm having the best time and I'm trying to release my album from afar, which is difficult. I'm getting box loads, van loads of things to sign which is all going out and about which is great

and then I'm working on my poetry book so I'm busy, busy, busy Good and may you be busy for a long time the album is wonderful it's out today Imelda May come and join us any time on Woman's Hour and good luck with the filming

Oh I'm so grateful for you having me on and easy of the best thank you to all of you thank you have a great day The album is out today have a a listen. It's gorgeous. Now, before COVID, five million grandparents provided childcare for their grandchildren. During the last year, many have had to stop providing the care.

What impact did it have on you? As we came out of lockdown, a survey by Gransnet has found that a fifth of grandparents are reluctant to carry on or say they'll stop doing it. Are you one of these people? Perhaps you just plan to reduce your hours. Whatever your reasons, we'd like to hear from you. You can text Womans Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

Or you can contact us via social media. It's at BBC Womans Hour. And on Monday, the first in a new series, Second Chances. The number of children in care in England is at its highest since 1985 and it's rising. A mother's addiction to drugs and alcohol is often one of the issues. The reporter and DJ Millie Charles became a mum at 40 last year. She's in long-term recovery from addiction herself and feels she was given lots of chances to change. Her fear is that women now aren't getting those opportunities

and the impact on them, their children and society is devastating. In a series of authored pieces, Millie talks to women at risk of having their children removed and the people who are trying to help them. And what about the children? It might be the best thing for a mother to look after or have access to her child, but is that the best thing for the child? A dad who had to intervene and go to court when his ex-partner's drug problems affected their daughter tells his story. And we don't have the clip. Now, a review of how Scottish courts deal with sexual assault cases has suggested that a specialist court is set up for such trials

where evidence could be heard by a single judge without a jury. Rape Crisis Scotland has described the suggestion as bold, exciting and evidence-based, but some in the legal profession are worried about the implications of such a shift. Lord Justice Clark Lady Dorian, Scotland's second most senior judge, has led the review which came up with six recommendations in total. I spoke to her earlier this morning and began by asking her why reform is needed. There was considerable evidence before us that there was a re-traumatizing effect of giving evidence for complainers participating in the whole process,

actually, under the current regime. And we felt that despite recent improvements and various strategies, there were many aspects of the way sexual offense cases could be progressed, which would improve that. And so essentially, our remit was to improve the experience of the complainers without impinging upon the fairness of the trial for the accused. One of the key recommendations is the idea of a specialist court to have a judge sit without a jury. What would the benefit of that be in your mind? Well, there are two separate things there that have been conflated in that question.

One is a specialist court, and the separate thing is a pilot of judges sitting alone. The specialist court, as envisaged, is a court with a jury. And the proposal is that all serious sexual cases should come within the jurisdiction of the new specialist court, where the judges and sheriffs would be specially trained in trauma-informed practices. The procedures would be developed with those practices in mind. The administrative staff will receive specialist training and those appearing will have to meet special standards of training and the default position would be that the complainer's evidence would be pre-recorded at as early a stage as possible, ground rules hearings would apply to all cases, and there would be enhanced case management.

And then the pilot scheme to have a judge sit without a jury, what would the benefit of that be? Well, the report identifies that there were strong arguments on either side, both in favour of retaining juries and judge alone trials. In favour of juries, of course, there's a strong historic and emotional attachment to the use of juries. They're very entrenched in our system. Their use constitutes a degree of democratic involvement in the process and increased diversity. But on the other hand, jurors, for example, jurors in a murder case will generally have no experience of murder or serious violence. In sex cases, jurors will bring their own sexual experiences and attitudes. And the research suggests that about the rape myths and stereotypes seems to confirm that. It stated that there was overwhelming evidence that rape myths affect

the way in which jurors evaluate evidence in rape cases. And that's consistent with Australian research that found that jurors had pre-existing attitudes about sexual violence that they brought to the trial. And the other element is that the research suggests that juries have difficulty in understanding how corroboration works, a requirement in Scots law, particularly in this context. And again, that's consistent with research findings elsewhere in New Zealand, for example, where jurors felt that cases can't be proved in the evidence, the absence of tangible evidence such as bruising or whatever, even when they believe the complainant was telling the whole truth. And this is something specific to Scots law? The corroboration is specific to Scott's law. The way in which it

operates in sexual cases is particular, but there seems to be evidence that juries are not understanding how that operates and are still looking for something tangible in the form of bruising or other kinds of evidence of that kind. So is the drive for this idea that the conviction rate is low because the jury is getting it wrong? Well, the conviction rates didn't play a part in most of our deliberations, but they can't be ignored when it comes to this issue. And the suggestion really is that a properly evaluated, time-limited pilot will allow a proper examination of these issues and a discussion

in a practical rather than a theoretical way about the best way forward of addressing these cases. And you also recommend trauma informed procedures in the National Specialist Courts. What do you mean by those? Well, trauma informed procedures are practices designed to avoid as far as humanly and reasonably possible re-traumatisation of the complainer. It's essentially a concept developed, I think, in the mental health field, but it has been adapted in this field. And there are quite a number of ways in which this could be useful in the specialist court. The re-traumatising effect of being involved in cases as the system presently operates was repeatedly identified to us as an issue for complainers. And if those

in the court, working in the court, presiding over the court, appearing in the court, understand how that happens and how it can be prevented, then everyone's lot will be considerably improved. So to discuss this further, I'm now joined by Sandy Brindley, National Coordinator of Rape Crisis Scotland, one of the groups which had input into the review, and also by John Scott QC, who's President of the Society of Solicitor Advocates. Morning to you both. John, let me come to you first. Isn't changing the system, even if that means thinking about losing the jury system in these cases, possibly a necessary evil to actually alter the staggeringly low conviction rates?

No, and I don't think that changing the system with the sole or main aim of improving the conviction rate is a legitimate approach. By all means, avoid the re-traumatising impact of giving evidence. By all means, record the evidence early, have trauma-informed practitioners, as some of the other recommendations say. But the jury is probably, in the legal profession,

seen as the main safeguard against miscarriages of justice. And the jury, it's not just for historical reasons or democratic reasons that the jury is seen as important. It's seen as probably the best way we have of finding the truth. I'm going to bring Sandy in. Sandy, how do you respond to John's concerns about not having a jury? I think there are undoubtedly miscarriages of justice happening in the Scottish legal system. But from our our perspective it is a guilty man walking free and women across Scotland being systematically let down by our justice system. I don't think it's about setting a target for convictions but I think it is about considering

is it a systemic issue in our legal system that prevents access to justice for all and rape and I would say there is and I think there's substantial evidence there is from a considerable amount of research using mock juries which have found the use of rape myths about juries interpreting the evidence through their attitudes often in my experience what's been played out in rape trials is really quite outdated notions about women's sexuality and women's behavior that I think should have no place within our legal system and I think there's often this idea that rape is hard to prove because it's one person's word against another but actually in Scotland as Lady Dorian referred to I've got a requirement for

corroboration so a case doesn't get to court unless there's significant support and evidence and we have seen cases with what I would say was overwhelming evidence, physical injury, audio recordings of the incident and the jury just will not convict. And so you think that even though it's controversial one possible idea would be to remove the jury, what do you think John? Well I think I mean there's a campaign to get rid of some of the other safeguards in Scotland, the not proven verdict and also corroboration. And if you remove enough safeguards, you will increase the number of convictions, but you will certainly increase the number of miscarriages of

justice and the number of wrongful convictions. So I think the last thing that should be under consideration is having trials without juries. I think trials with specialist judges, fine, but sitting with juries, because otherwise, if the main driver, as it is for many, is to increase the conviction rate, OK, not to set a target, but to increase the conviction rate, then judges who are sitting in those courts, if there's no jury, will certainly feel that pressure. And this perception that juries are either prejudiced or naive will be replaced by judges who are driven by this notion that juries haven't been getting it right. And the way to get it right is to convict. Well, we've had a text in from somebody who's talking about just this. They said about 10 years ago,

I was on a jury for a rape trial. It was obvious that the man was guilty and that the girl was young and experienced, but very brave. Fellow jurors said things such as, why was she out at night? What about her parents? None of the circumstances cut any ice with the jurors,

basically, but that her parents transpired. Her mother was disabled in a wheelchair and she didn't know her father. It was as if to them she got what she deserved. I wondered then and I wonder now if jurors need training or support in such harrowing trials to understand the issues. The man got off, the young woman got nothing for her honesty and courage.

So that's the concern, isn't it, John? Well, that's the concern. But I've also had people who've sat on juries contact me to say that they feel traduced by the claims that juries are making decisions based on myths. And that when these myths have come up in jury discussions, they've shot them down. That the 15 people in Scotland have discussions. And yes, some of those people, as with society in general, are going to have these wrong ideas, but that between the 15 of them, that is evened out and that the myths do not decide the cases. And I feel, I mean, I trust juries. I've been appearing in courts with juries for over 30 years and my

colleagues do as well. I think they get it right more often than not. And it shouldn't be about a specific conviction rate. It should be about assessing the evidence in each case properly, without prejudice, and then reaching a verdict beyond a reasonable doubt. Sandy, other suggestions in the review have been to introduce the recording of evidence in court without a jury being present, and that some sort of bias training should be given to jurors when they're used. Would that go any way to changing the system without cutting out juries? I think there's definitely some interesting ideas there. I think I would agree with Joy and John

that really our intent in the justice system really should be about what is the best way of getting to the truth and trying to make sure that misinformation or prejudice does not play a part in that process. So there's some recommendations in the review that are looking at, for example, a video for jurors, don't look and rate myths. I think it's worth considering.

I think my sense is probably the impact would be marginal. If you're thinking these are quite deep-rooted ideas and attitudes that people have, I'm not entirely convinced that listening or seeing a five-minute video is going to completely address that, but that doesn't mean that it's not worth considering. I think the pilot, the judge-led pilot, is the most controversial of the recommendations.

I think it's an important recommendation because I think if we don't address or engage with the question of jury attitudes, we are not going to improve access to justice. But I think there's a lot of other recommendations that also deserve consideration that could really transform complainers experience in the criminal justice system so we know that what complainers say to us just now is that the process is extremely traumatic there's some quotes from complainers in the report from the review and one of them is saying given given evidence, it was the most degrading experience of my life.

And do you think this is somebody who's been raped saying that given evidence in court was the most degrading experience in her life? Should concern us all. We've also had a number of appeal judgments that I think are really, really worrying in terms of how women are being treated. We had a case recently in Macdonald

where the appeal court were very, very critical of how the young woman was treated and the lack of intervention by both the Crown and the Sheriff in that case. And that woman has actually sued, successfully sued the Lord Advocate because of the lack of protection that was given to her. It was a really senior former prosecutor that took the judicial review against the Lord Advocate. And she listened to the audio of the cross-examination and said she was profoundly shocked by how this young woman was treated. So I think there's without doubt real issues about how women are being treated in our courts in Scotland.

I think people would be horrified if they saw some of what happened. So I think the recommendations around creation of a specialist court, trauma training, I think these are really, really important measures. And I really would urge whichever government gets into power after the Scottish election to take very, very seriously the recommendations of this review, because I think it has the potential to transform Scotland's response to sexual crime. Well, thank you very much, Sandy Brindley and John Scott QC. If you would like to contact us about anything you're listening to on the show today, and if you would like to share your experience,

if you have been through something as traumatic as this, we will keep your names anonymous. It's 84844, or you can email us by going to our website if you'd like to tell us about your story. Now, in last week's BAFTA's Nomadland, Nomadland, a drama about a woman who decided to live in her van won four prizes, including Best Film, Best Actress for its star Frances McDormand and Best Director for Chloe Zhao, who's only the second woman to win Best Director in 53 years and the first woman of colour. Good on her. The film follows Fern, a woman who loses her job following the financial crash. Her husband has also recently passed away and so she decides to sell her house, pack up her life in a van and travel to find work, living as a nomad. Here's a clip.

My dad used to say, what's remembered lives. It's been many years since I started out for that goal. I maybe spent too much of my life just remembering. Driving down the highway, roll down the window, watch it go. What the nomads are doing is not that different than what the pioneers did. One of the things I love most about this life is that there's no final goodbye. Let's just say

I'll see you down the rainbow. I can't wait to watch it. It's coming out on the 30th of April on Disney+. And I said that I quite like the idea of packing up and going off and living in a van. And we've had an email from Linz. She says, you're definitely not alone in your desire to get in a camper and go nomading, Anita.

Always wanted to do it. One can dream. Well, the idea of living in a van is not as unusual as you may think. And many women are doing it. Search under the hashtag vanlife on Instagram and there are over 9.5 million posts with seductive photos of people who've refurbished cosy vans for holidays and adventures abroad but also those who've traded living in houses for a permanent life on the road. Some are doing it temporarily

to save money to put down a deposit, some because rents are too high and it allows them to live more economically. For others, it's a lifestyle choice, offering more freedom and a connection with nature. I'm joined now by George McKim, who lived in her van from 2016 to 2020, and Missy, who currently lives with her husband Dom, daughter Rosie and their pets. And they've been on the road since 2019 in their sprinter van which they call the sub morning to you both welcome to women's hour missy what what made you and your family decide to pack it all in sell everything up and live in a van uh it actually did start with a hashtag van life on um instagram we were uh i spent a couple of hours i came across it by accident spent a couple of hours viewing all the across it by accident, spent a couple of

hours viewing all the beautiful shots of people living right there on the beach or their shots through the van at the sea and the sunset. And I went to my husband and I said, hey, look at this, wouldn't this be amazing? And he went, well, actually, that's on my old age bucket list. And three or four months later, we ended up starting to do out our van. Well, I found myself in the hashtag van life vortex yesterday because there are 9.5 million pictures and they are amazing. But it's Instagram. You know, these are the pictures that people want you to see. What is the reality? Is it as glamorous and gorgeous as it seems? It can be. It can be very much like that but i think obviously on instagram you know nobody's going to put a photo up of when their toilet overflowed or when they ran out of water and

had to spend six hours driving around getting hot and flustered so there are the downsides of course but generally yeah it's as fantastic as it looks you're just cruising down so what did you do what were the practicalities did you what did you have to. So what did you do? What were the practicalities? What did you have to sell up? What did you have to get rid of? How freeing was it? We lived in a rented house, so we didn't have to sell up or anything like that.

We did have to get rid of quite a lot of stuff. We were quite normal people and we worked. And then when we had some spare money, we'd go out and we'd go shopping. So we'd buy stuff and you'd come home to your house and you put your stuff on your shelves. And then eventually you need to buy some new shelves and you put your more stuff on that. So there was a lot of stuff to get rid of. And at first it was really, really hard and you don't know what to get rid of. And the more you lose, the freer we felt and the more we were able to chuck away and and bin and we put a little

amount of stuff in storage it felt fantastic actually i'm going to bring george in george you had your own business your own house what made you decide to give it all up for van life yeah it was um it was a random trip to iceland I took a trip to Iceland, rented a van, and I had a van back home already, but I never thought of living in it. And then I was travelling around Iceland and I was like, wow, you can actually just live in it. All the stresses of work and all of that kind of just drifted away. And I got back to England and decided to sell the house,

sell the business and live in the VW Caddy that I had at the time. And what do you do to the van to make it liveable? Just what's in the van? Describe the van to us that you lived in. Well, the first van was very basic. It literally just had a bed in it and a camp and stove. And I travelled Europe for about a year in in that and then i come back to england and i was like oh i kind of need a little bit of an upgrade because uh it would be nice to be able

to stand up and get dressed rather than lie down and get dressed but um yeah the van that i have now you can stand up in it it's more it's more like a home than a than a back of a back of a van with a mattress is it yeah because if you look? Yeah, because if you look at some, like again, if you look at some of the interiors of these vans, they're beautifully done. And I've seen yours as well, Missy. It's very cosy, very homely, very colourful. Is it expensive to do up a van, George?

No, not at all. Like, I think I spent the same amount of money on the van as I did, like like put in into it and then yeah it's less than a deposit for a house to to buy a van and do it up it's it's yeah really really cheap a very sensible person has just met I suppose it depends on on how far you want to take it because I've seen some vans that like you probably spend about 50 grand on them but there's yeah you can do it very cheap as well. Someone's just texted in a very sensible question.

How do you get your post? How do you get your post, George? I don't really actually have any posts, but I have my address back at my parents' house, so if there's any that need covering, they pick it up and send me a photo of it and then do it like that. And Missy, tell us about your van uh it's an ex dhl delivery van so when we first bought it it had the metal security bulkhead in

it and all the shelves on the back that would have held the parcels so we had to rip all that out first and then my husband and i built it out together we'd never done anything like it before but he was um good at woodwork and i learned how to do 12-volt electrics. And we built it together. It took us about eight months. But during that time, we were each running our own businesses and home educating our daughter. And I used to run girl guiding units.

So I think you could do it a lot faster than that if you wanted to. I mean, there is the experience that George had, which is, you know, pack up, go. Her brother helped her and she's on the road on her own. But you have your family. You've got a daughter that you have to school. You have a dog and a cat. Did I see a cat in your pictures as well?

Yeah, two dogs and two cats. How do you travel with two dogs and two cats and educate your daughter and live life on a road? I mean, that sounds very full on to me. Well, it's all kind of part and parcel um i guess my my daughter she's 12 so she's um she's got a lot of her own interests we do um we follow unschooling so she follows her own interest she's got her own business selling resin jewelry online um she does uh gaming she's learning how to do coding at the moment um she's very self-directed on that uh for the cats and the dogs the cats they spent about two weeks adjusting to

van life they weren't sure at first about the moving and and so on and after those two weeks we realized that they loved it and they're actually so much happier now than they ever were in a house because they're with us all the time they enjoy sitting in the front they sleep on a cushion when we drive uh right now they're both asleep on the dashboard because that's where the sun is but yeah they sleep they sit outside on our camp chairs they think it's brilliant and is it and where do you go to the toilet where do you shower like what what do you just drive wherever you want park wherever you want how does it work i'm asking because i'm genuinely interested in it like this could be a life plan for the future yeah absolutely i think you should

but i need to know what i need to know about showering and toilet that's very important for me okie dokie well you've got um there's a variety of choices for those things some people choose not to have them in their van so that they have more space we have a cubicle which is actually um just behind me there uh and it has it's a wet room so you could have a shower with hot water we have friends who do. We chose not to, but we have a portable shower unit that we can take into that room and we can shower inside if we want to.

There's also a toilet in there. So we've got privacy for that. Again, some people have water potties that they pull out into the middle of the van. And we decided for the three of us, we needed privacy. Missy, any regrets about doing it? Are you enjoying your life on the road? We are. We're all thoroughly enjoying it. We've been doing it for nearly two years now. We have no plans to stop anytime soon.

And George, do you think you'd get back on the road anytime soon? Are you missing it? Yeah, as soon as it's over the well, it's opening up now, so back up on the road and up to Scotland, hopefully. Oh, how lovely. and what did you find most surprising about your new life in a van I think it's just the the element of like the pace the pace of it is just like so relaxed and you can go at your own pace and get to be anywhere by any time and and the freedom the freedom and just like pulling up at beaches or mountains or lakes and just the nature and the outdoors side of it I suppose lovely well thank you both for joining us to speak to us and inspiring us if this is your thing you can go and look at the hashtag it's van life thank you George and

thank you Missy and of course Nomadland the brilliant film with Frances McDormand I say brilliant I've not even seen it but I just know it's going to be brilliant is coming out on Disney Plus on the 30th of April That's all for today's Woman's Hour, join us again next time Hi this is Jane Garvey I really hope you enjoyed that podcast

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