Woman's Hour - Is maternity fashion changing? Marina Ovsyannikova, Caroline Lucas MP & Dame Sue Ion, South Korean new PM, Surnames, Threads

Episode Date: March 15, 2022

Marina Ovsyannikova is an employee of Russia’s state Channel One television interrupting the channel’s main news programme on Monday night in an extraordinary act of protest against Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. She burst on to the set of the live broadcast of the nightly news on Monday evening, shouting: “Stop the war. No to war.” - holding a handwritten sign to the same effect. The protest was welcomed by Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky who mentioned it in his televised address last night.. And within hours of her protest, more than 40,000 people had left comments on the journalist's Facebook page, with many praising her for taking a stand. Professor of International Relations at London School of Economics, Tomila Lankina joins Emma.In 2020, The Woman’s Hour Power List celebrated 30 inspiring women whose work is making a significant positive contribution to the environment and the sustainability of our planet. Today, we talk to the Green Party MP Caroline Lucas, who topped that List. Can the UK afford its net zero policies? With the cost of living rising, and the impact of the war in Ukraine, are Britain's plans to cut greenhouse gas emissions too expensive? Joining Caroline to discuss will be engineer and nuclear industry expert, Dame Sue Ion. In true popstar fashion, singer Rihanna announced her pregnancy in January with a New York photoshoot alongside her boyfriend, the rapper ASAP Rocky, wearing a bright pink coat, with layers of gold jewellery and chains resting on her new baby bump. And since that announcement, she’s been seen wearing a number of eye-catching outfits. But is there a bump fashion revolution coming? And what could this mean for the everyday pregnant woman? Celebrity stylist Jennifer Michalski-Bray and pregnant content creator Zara Bentley join us.Last week South Korea picked a new president: Yoon Suk-yeol. He is a conservative who defeated his liberal rival Lee Jae-myung. During his campaign he promised to abolish the Ministry for Gender Equality, denying that women face discrimination. South Korea has one of the worst women's rights records in the developed world, although modest gains have been made over the last few years. But that has ignited an anti-feminist backlash among many young men who see feminism as reverse discrimination, taking away their jobs and opportunities. So what does Yoon Suk-yeol’s election mean for women? Emma is joined by Laura Bicker, the BBC’s Soeul Correspondent and the feminist South-Korean film-maker Youjin Do.Formula 1 world champion Lewis Hamilton has revealed he is officially changing his name to incorporate his mother Carmen's surname - Larbalestier. He says that he wants her name to continue on with the Hamilton name, and that he doesn't understand why "when people get married then the woman loses her name." It is understood that he will include it as a middle name rather than a surname. Dr Jane Pilcher, Associate Professor of sociology, Nottingham Trent University discusses what impact a high profile man taking this step could have. Purnima tells the story of a beautiful hand-knitted dress she brought with her to the UK when her family was expelled from Uganda by Idi Amin. The latest in our series Threads. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Professor Tomila Lankina Interviewed Guest: Caroline Lucas Interviewed Guest: Dame Sue Ion Interviewed Guest: Jennifer Michalski-Bray Interviewed Guest: Zara Bentley Interviewed Guest: Laura Bickers Interviewed Guest: Youjin Do Interviewed Guest: Dr Jane Pilcher Interviewed Guest: Purnima Shah

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I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts.

Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Yesterday, some of you were kind enough to share with me the moment, the photo, the report, something you had seen, which really stood out to you during the near three-week war in Ukraine. Well, today I wanted to ask you about action and if you are taking any in response to what you are reading, seeing or hearing. The reason it is front of mind is twofold. One, because a female Russian TV editor took extraordinary action last night by staging a live protest on Russian state news against what she called Kremlin propaganda and

the zombification of the Russian people. We'll be hearing more about her and women who have gone against Putin shortly, but also because nearly 50,000 people in this country have responded to the call to house Ukrainian refugees. What are you doing then, if anything, if you are able to or if you're willing? It could be on the refugee side, it could be in some form of protest. It could be in the form of political lobbying. Today, we're also going to be talking about on the programme whether the net zero target is over with two leading women in that space. But how are you potentially being active

in response to the war in Ukraine? Text me here at Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged to your standard message rate or social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour, or email me through our website. Also on today's programme, as the Formula One champion Lewis Hamilton

formally changes his name to include his mother's maiden name, will more men and women follow suit? It's still a surprisingly high, or it may not be surprising to you, high number of women when in heterosexual relationships getting married to a man that changed their name. And then when you get to you, high number of women when in heterosexual relationships getting married to a man that changed their name and then when you get to children it's almost all, it's almost totally the majority

that of children's names have just the men's name. That still hasn't changed. We'll be looking into the history as well as that as well as the present day and as part of our series on clothes you cannot bear to part with, it's called Threads we hear another of your lovely personal tales and why you need to

know about the new president of South Korea, elected on an anti-woman ticket. All that to come. But you probably have seen the picture and footage of Marina Oksenikova, an employee of Russia's state Channel One television, interrupting the channel's main news programme on Monday night last night in an extraordinary act of protest against Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine. She burst onto the set of the live broadcast of the nightly news, shouting, stop the war, no to war, holding a handwritten sign to the same effect. The news anchor just in front of her continued to read from her autocue,

speaking louder in an attempt to drown her out. But Marina's protest could be seen and heard for several seconds before the channel switched to a recorded segment. Marina recorded this interview, or this video, I should say, beforehand, explaining her decision to protest. And it was released by a friend after she was arrested and has now gone around the world. Have a listen.

The translation has been voiced by one of our BBC colleagues. What's going on in Ukraine now is a crime. Russia is the aggressor. The responsibility for this aggression falls on the consciousness of one man. This man is Vladimir Putin. My father is Ukrainian. My mother is Russian. They were never enemies. Sadly, during the past years, I worked at Channel One. I spread the Kremlin propaganda, and I'm very ashamed of this. I'm ashamed I allowed lies to be told on TV screens. I'm ashamed I allowed Russian people to be fooled. We were silent in 2014 when it all started. We did not go out to protest when the Kremlin poisoned Navalny. We simply watched this inhumane regime. Now the whole world has turned its back on us.

We, the Russians, are wise and proud. It's up to us to stop this madness. Come out to protest. Do not be afraid. They cannot put all of us in jail. The protest was welcomed by the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who mentioned it in his televised address last night, thanking her for her actions. And within hours of Marina's protest, more than 40,000 people had left comments on her Facebook page, with many praising her for taking a stand. Well, I'm joined now by Professor Tomila Lankina, Professor of International Relations at London School of Economics. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining us. I wanted to first ask about the consequences for this female journalist.

We understand her lawyer cannot find her at any police station this morning. The consequences, as we know from similar past precedents, could be very severe. Of course, in the last couple of weeks, the government has passed even more draconian laws penalizing so-called fake news against the war. So she could face 15 years, up to 15 years in jail. But there are also other psychological and other consequences, intimidation, arrests, fines of her, not just herself, but also her relatives might be affected. There might be all kinds of consequences and pressure put on the loved ones of this brave individual. Brave is a word many are using. Just how brave do you have to be to storm into a live news studio in Russia, state news, and do this?

I think it is very, very consequential because even we know from protests, even individuals who are simply standing with a blank sheet of paper in central squares in provincial towns in Russia would be arrested because it is considered and perceived as an act of protest. And rightly so, because people have been denied the opportunity to engage in constitutional forms of expressing their dissatisfaction, in this case with the war. So protesters are rounded up and taken to police stations even before they have a chance to unveil a slogan.

And so many simply stand either with a blank sheet of paper or turn up and show, find kind of creative ways of expressing their solidarity with the anti-war sentiment. I think what's also so striking about this particular protest, of course, not least that you can see it. It isn't in a square. It isn't in the countryside. It's very squarely on view to the world because it's on television. But it makes it very potent because of the messages we are hearing about how little the Russian people, some of them anyway, know about the facts of what's going on in Ukraine. Absolutely. And women, unfortunately, as is often the case, are the invisible force behind the sentiment and perhaps the opposition that is brewing. And this brave woman is an expression of this sort of discontent that is now coming to the surface.

For instance, there are mothers of soldiers who have been sent without their consent, often without proper information given to them, have been sent to fight in this senseless war. Their mothers are not aware of their whereabouts. And these mothers are now desperately phoning. There is an NGO called Committee of Soldiers' Mothers. The hotline has been absolutely inundated with phone calls. And these mothers are the potential force for opposition to this aggression against

Ukraine, not least because many people in Russia are misinformed. They do not have the information, as we saw from this propaganda channel. This is mostly the kinds of news that they get, unless, of course, somebody comes in the background with an anti-war slogan, as Maria Avsanikova did. And so knowing about the war indirectly, because your son is participating there, is a channel of information

and perhaps mobilization of women who are also active in so many other ways, but their activism remains unseen. Their civil society groups, and indeed their high profile women, for instance, the activists supporting Alexei Navalny, the jail deposition act. They have been very high profile. Some of them, of course, had to emigrate.

They leave the country for the safety of their families. But people like Lyubov Sabo, Maria P.F. Chikhira, Yarmysh, they're not just trying to mobilize public opinion within Russia against the war and against the Putin regime. But they're also campaigning actively in Western capitals in London, in the UK, for sanctioning of oligarchs and, you know, taking away the source of support of this ghastly regime. Yes. And with regard to the mothers that you were just mentioning before that, we did have a big chat about this on last week's programme. If anyone missed that, a very specific focus

on the role that some of those mothers are playing because there has been some footage on social media. Again, it's social media of people, of mothers taking on local officials about the whereabouts of their sons and kind of piercing that wall of Kremlin information. What do you think? You've mentioned it could be 15 years in jail. There could be targeting of her family. Will Marina, will we know what happens to her? Will we hear more of her now

because she's gone into the system, as it were? Absolutely. But unfortunately, what the regime doesn't realize, and we know from past evidence and sort of information snippets we get about Putin and what kind of information bubble he's in, that he's not very tech savvy, not very media savvy. He doesn't understand social media. And it's very indicative that the activist, Maria this um uh the the activist maria of seneca she recorded she pre-recorded a video of her uh you know making a public statement um before she she went on um with a slogan on on national state tv which shows that she is media savvy. She is very savvy. She knows how it works. And unfortunately, the regime, no matter how hard it tries,

by cancelling and eliminating possibility of people to access social media platforms, no matter how hard it tries, at the end of the day, the world has moved on. And in terms of the accessibility of information, and that is something that the regime doesn't realize by sort of trying to cut off different channels of information. But this is the kind of media landscape we live in. So there will be pressure. There will be leaks. There will be perhaps, there will be hopefully some information about what is happening to this brave woman. Well, we will stick with that.

And we wanted to make sure if people hadn't seen it, although a lot of people have been showing it, that they did know her name, that they do know what she had done, and that we could talk in more context about some of the other women who have also found themselves speaking publicly, whether it's in, as you say, holding pieces of paper at where they live or on social media or on television against Putin and the Kremlin propaganda, as it has been termed. Thank you very much for your insights, Professor Tomila Lankina, Professor of International Relations at London School of Economics. A message here from Sarah says, such a courageous woman about Marina, we need to watch her over and over and protect her if we can. And many people sharing messages on social media throughout the night talking about remembering her name and sharing that pre-recorded video that we played with the translation done by one of our colleagues here out and people sharing that far and wide. Well, linked to Ukraine, of course, today, the prime minister has said that the West made a terrible mistake by continuing to rely on Russian oil and gas after the 2014 invasion of Crimea and has accused Putin of using Russian energy supplies for blackmail.

Boris Johnson writing in The Telegraph says we cannot go on like this in light of the war in Ukraine. So what is the alternative? He's expected to visit Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates this week in an attempt to convince Gulf states to release oil reserves. And while backing drilling in the North Sea and making big new bets on nuclear power, Mr Johnson still insists that the UK will become a net zero emitter by 2050. Well, two leading women in this space join me now, Green Party MP Caroline Lucas and the engineer Dame Sue Ian,

who is a nuclear industry expert. Sue, I will come to you in just a moment, but Caroline, in light of what the Prime Minister has written this morning, still that commitment there, he says to net zero, getting there by 2050. Do you still see that with maintaining energy security as a goal that isn't dead in the water? Some are fearing it is. I think we stand at a crossroads, quite honestly, and it's not clear which way the government's going to go. And at the moment, it feels like the Prime Minister is facing two ways at once.

On the one hand, there's some very welcome language about the importance of renewables, about energy efficiency. And if he's serious about that, he really needs to put a lot more resources into them. But at the same time, going cap in hand to Saudi Arabia to try to exchange one murderous regime that we are dependent on for fossil fuels with another seems to be quite misguided. And the idea that we should start fracking again, for example, and getting more North Sea oil and gas out of the ground, I think is equally misguided, not least because it gets sold at international prices on global markets, it won't bring prices down, it won't guarantee us that energy security. I think what he needs to recognise when he talks

about having a climate pass, you know, in other words, let's put climate change on hold for a moment while we sort out this other crisis. What he doesn't seem to recognise is that the climate crisis is itself a national security issue. And it makes no sense at all to try to get exemptions from some of his own climate obligations on national security grounds, when we know that the climate crisis is accelerating and is every bit as much of a national security crisis as anything else. Let me bring you in at this point, Dame Suey. Good morning. Where do you see the target in terms of net zero?

Can we still meet that with what's being said by the prime minister this morning? Well, as Caroline has pointed out, energy security is tantamount to national security. So it really matters because without it, society, as we know it, breaks down. The climate change challenge is a huge challenge in engineering space to build the assets that we need. So it's a massive target. And when you look at what's required of the renewable sources like wind and solar, together with new nuclear power stations, it's an immense challenge. You know, our low carbon nuclear stations, most of those retire by the end of this decade. So we really do need to get on with building our new nuclear power stations,

as well as large investments in wind and solar if we're to do what's required. New nuclear power stations. Do you agree with that, Caroline Lucas? You won't be surprised to know that I don't agree with that. I think that nuclear is hugely expensive. We know that by cost of megawatt hour it's around 120 pounds compared to wind being available for under 50 pounds per megawatt hour. So it is massively expensive and it is massively slow. It would take at least 10, 15 years before a new nuclear power station would come on stream. Contrast that with what we already know

about the 649 individual onshore wind and solar projects that have already been given planning permission, but they're not yet built, partly because the government has actually set its face against onshore wind. If we were to build those, it would take us far less time. It would take us two or three years. And in that time, we could actually absolutely create more energy than the energy that we are currently dependent upon from Russia.

So energy efficiency, renewable energy is the way forward. Sue, you're an engineer. Does that make sense? Will we have enough of what we need and also at the prices that people can afford? Well, no, you'd obviously realise that I wouldn't necessarily agree with everything Caroline said there. I mean, nuclear, given the sensible financing, is competitive with other low carbon technologies. In fact, the current operating nuclear fleet generates at around 45 pounds per megawatt hour. And sure, the new stations that were commissioned some time ago were expensive, but there's been massive steps forward taken in reducing the cost of nuclear energy,

particularly by, for example, Rolls-Royce with their modular, small modular reactor, modularizing not just the reactor itself, but the whole of the power station, because the reactor part is not actually the expensive part. The expensive part is the massive construction that goes around the older designs. But Rolls-Royce has succeeded in modularising these aspects as well. So the cost is going to be more like £50 per megawatt hour or less if we go ahead and build a fleet where you get the economies of scale and the factory production. Sorry, so from your point of view, we have to go ahead with that because what we cannot make enough energy from what Caroline is talking about in this in the time that we have it. That's true. And also, you know, Caroline rightly was pushing for the new wind investment and the new solar investment, which is right. But if you look at all the wind energy that we have constructed so far, all of it over the last two, three decades, we've only got 25 gigawatts capacity built.

And it looks like we need about 120 if we're to stay on the journey to net zero. So the engineering challenge of building particularly the more difficult offshore farms is going to be immense. And also, don't forget, we have to replace all of what we've already built in that window. So, you know, it's not like we're just adding, we've got to replace what we've already got there because they don't last that long. You're not going to agree either of you, it seems, on all of this. But from Sue's experience, considerable experience as an engineer there, Caroline, it doesn't sound like some of what you're putting forward is realistic to replace what we need. Well, I'm not an engineer, but the figures that I'm relying on and the evidence that I'm relying

on is put forward by engineers. So I don't think this is a question of a debate between an engineer and a non-engineer. No, no, I just meant it's not necessarily political here. We're talking about what's possible. Well, I'm talking about what's possible too. And I can absolutely assure you that there is a wealth of evidence out there that suggests that going forward with a range of measures, and we need to start looking about demand as well as supply.

So if we were really serious about those energy efficiency measures, if the government brought forward proposals, for example, to make sure that all new homes had to have heat pumps as well as proper energy efficiency, if it brought forward its energy efficiency regulations on appliances, if it really had a home insulation programme worth the name, these are all things that can begin to save energy and indeed save our fuel bills, which is important. And there are plenty of engineers out there who will tell you that a combination of interconnectors,

of more battery storage, of renewable energy as well, absolutely can get us where we need to be. What we need is to stop talking about it and to start doing it. And I would just challenge Sue's figures on how much it costs. You know, if nuclear was as cheap and as sensible economically as she suggests, then you would have companies falling over themselves to build nuclear power in this country. We don't. We have to keep bribing them to do it, essentially. There's a new nuclear finance bill going through Parliament at the moment, which essentially means consumers have to pay twice.

We have to pay towards the construction of the nuclear power station, and then we are bound into a 35-year guaranteed price to pay for it. You know, through the nose, this is a massively costly and a massively slow way of responding to a very immediate crisis that renewables and efficiency can do much better. Sue, let me give you a chance to respond to that. But also, Laurie's messaged in to say, nuclear energy makes no economic safety or practical sense. Follow the money. Who profits from nuclear? Renewable resources are the only way forward. No government is honest about this. Sue, what would you say to that?

Well, obviously, I wouldn't agree with what Laurie has actually messaged in, but also some of Caroline's assertions. One of the things we've got to recognise is that electricity is only a part of our problem. It's actually about our energy, and that means driving around petrol, diesel, gas, heating our homes, et cetera. And around 85% of that at the moment is actually fossil fuel. Electricity is only 17% of our total energy demand,

and at the moment half decarbonised. And the Climate Change Committee recognises we need seven times as much clean energy to get to net zero. So around about four times as much clean electricity by 2050. And of that, around 38% should be firm, i.e. not weather dependent. And nuclear is the only commercially available source of firm, low carbon power. So it's there when the sun isn't shining and when the wind isn't blowing. In terms of their arguments about cost, that's just not true with the new modern stations. And companies are lining up to invest in the UK, whether that be

Westinghouse and Bechtel or Rolls-Royce with our own small modular reactor designs. Companies are lining up and putting their own cash into the conclusion of the licensing and the conclusion of the development. Sue, perhaps we will talk again. Just from your perspective, is that net zero target still on for 2050, do you think? It's a massive, massive engineering challenge. And unless the government gets behind all of the investment that's needed and starts the project approvals and the journey to delivery of those wind farms, solar farms, nuclear power stations. It's an extremely difficult task, I think. And Caroline, just with what you referred to briefly at the beginning, there are reports today, I first saw onico that ministers are now looking at um added adding national security or geopolitical consideration

clauses that will allow them to bypass the net zero uh red tape as it were and quickly drill for more oil in emergency circumstances so just in terms of having to redraw some of the the legislation around this how confident are you if you say we're at a crossroads, that we're going to go the way that you describe? We have got to. We just have got to. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, well, I think that there'll be such a reaction, to be honest, up and down the country, because if I can just say

that this last International Panel on Climate Change report just from last week talked about a brief and rapidly closing window to secure a livable future. The UN Secretary General said it was a report unlike anything he had ever seen before, an atlas of human suffering and a damning indictment of failed climate leadership. It's horribly ironic, though, that a lot of people won't have seen it purely because of what's going on in Ukraine. And I don't say that with, you know, with anything other than that is factual for a lot of people. I accept that. But I am grateful for this opportunity to be able just to remind people

that for all of the absolutely unbelievable horror that is unfolding in Ukraine, and it is the most appalling thing to see. Believe me, the climate crisis is no less, it is more than that right across the world. And we are having so many warnings now about what we need to do. And if I could just come back to Sue, she talks about it as an engineering challenge. It certainly is, but it's also a behaviour change challenge. You know, why, when we know, for example, just how damaging more and more fossil fuels are, do we have around a third of vehicles in this country being sold that are SUVs, sports utility vehicles in urban areas where we know that they're far more dependent on gas.

Why do we just not pick this low hanging fruit and make sure that we're starting to do some of these easy things and then we can get on to the harder ones? It comes from the top in terms of leadership and some of those decisions. We will follow what, of course, the prime minister is doing in this area. And studies routinely show, polls routinely show that this matters a great deal to women. And I know that both of you, I'm sure, will come back. I hope that both of you will come back and talk to us more as we see the political direction on this. Thank you very much. Green Party MP there, Caroline Lucas, and the engineer Dame Sue Ian. Much response also just coming in. What about tidal energy? Water was used to drive industries in the past.

Nuclear waste is a problem for our children worse than any other. And I live near offshore wind turbines. There are many weeks, says this, when the turbines are not working due to a lack of wind. We will return to that. But to something else completely different altogether. There are two trends happening in parallel at the moment. And some of you have been getting in touch about this already. We mention it on our social media feeds when it comes to how women dress when pregnant. On one side is the pop star and fashion mogul Rihanna.

You may remember she announced her pregnancy in January wearing a bright pink coat, open to reveal her naked baby bump with layers of gold jewellery and chains. And she's continued to dress like that since. And on the other are women who are choosing not even to reveal that they are pregnant, actually actively using fashion to disguise their bump and not talk about their pregnancy at all. Well, where are you on this? Where are we? Where are the trends? Celebrity and fashion stylist Jennifer Michalski-Bry, who's dressed the likes of the comedian Catherine Ryan, and Zara Bentley, a fashion content creator who's currently expecting her first child a warm welcome to both of you Jennifer just on the reaction to Rihanna she

has continued to dress very very well she's a beautiful dresser striking dresser when she's not pregnant but she's continued to dress in a way that lots of people are saying is this perhaps a new trend for people showing their bare bellies and just this, a silver crop top with a diamond belly shape. Yes. You know what? I hope that it makes women feel more confident in dressing for their baby bump. If anything comes from this, even if it doesn't become a trend for everyone, because everyone will feel comfortable bearing their bellies. But as long as people are feeling more confident in dressing for pregnancy, I think that is the key thing to take away from Rihanna's dressing. But you have seen, because I mean, I'm just looking at some of the messages, looking at some of these images, I recognise we're on the radio, I've tried to

describe a couple of them. One message here says, I don't think Rihanna's outfits will catch on, because some of them are see-through lingerie, might be okay for celebrities, but not anyone else in the real world. I mean, you might get a bit cold. That's definitely true. I think, you know, she's just portraying her authentic self. She dressed like that when she wasn't pregnant. And so she's just taken how she dressed pre-pregnancy and translated that into maternity style. And I think that's great.

And if you know, I think she's showing people you don't have to completely change your fashion sense just because you're expecting a child it's interesting we got a couple of messages straight away about this um one from from CJ says 20 years ago there wasn't much choice I just wore what I'd been wearing before but several sizes larger the trousers undone and held up with a bit of ribbon I mean maternity wear is a relatively new concept but actually a lot of people turning away from it and just buying bigger. Is that what you're seeing? Especially, as I say, there's another trend. Tell us a bit more about this where women don't even want to say anything at all about being pregnant. Yeah. So, well, I always encourage my clients to try to dress the same way that they would be dressing and to just size up.

Because then we can always alter it down to their post-pregnancy size. But yeah, a lot of my clients have hidden their pregnancies for months and months into their pregnancy. And I don't know if that stems from they're not wanting the public to know or, you know, just people asking questions about the baby and all of those questions. They want it to be, you know, them at the forefront and not, you know, keep their personal life somewhat personal. It's also quite fun if people don't know

because I remember enjoying watching somebody look at me who I worked with and then really not knowing, you know, if I just really had perhaps eaten quite a lot more of late or was going to mention it at all. But, you know, this not coming out as pregnant, obviously you have to tell certain people around you, but, you know, it's quite transgressive and it's quite interesting to work with.

And I'm sure from your point of view as a stylist, Zara, let me bring you into this as someone who creates content around fashion and expecting your first child do you take your lead from those who are or who are wearing the baggy jumpers or are you getting your bump out do you think a little bit of both I think um obviously it is my first pregnancy so I can't say you know I've changed my mind compared to you know whatever it might be but um likes of Rihanna as an example for me personally it's not realistic for me to dress like that but she's a celebrity and she can do that and as Jennifer mentioned she does you know she does dress quite avant-garde anyway type of thing so she's keeping you know the way she dresses in line and just kind of you know adding that into

her pregnancy for me like I do work from home. So I am most of the time in very comfy, casual stuff. But I do, you know, on my Instagram, a lot of my dresses and tops, they are quite tight. I like bodycon. I like to show my bump off. And I agree with Jennifer that it can make you feel very confident.

And for me, it's quite empowering as a woman because, you know, I'm proud to be pregnant. And I do think, you know, this is my first pregnancy, so I can't really compare it. But, you know, let's say 10 years ago, I've not really I had friends pregnant you know years ago it was as popular as it is now and luckily you can dress you know more how you would usually dress when you're pregnant because lots of brands brands that never did before all have maternity range now um so you can still shop at most of your usual online stores or you know um in in real life stores. And a lot of them have maternity range as well. So you can still dress how you wanted to dress, but not have to, you know, necessarily buy really, you know, extra large clothes and hide your bump if you don't want to. And for me, I personally really like that.

I think it's funny. George says, when I was first pregnant 14 years ago, I was a size 16, getting bigger with my bump. There wasn't a huge choice out there, especially as I rejected all the twee slogan tops. I was pregnant, not lobotomized. I think you should wear what you like and enjoy it. Have you actually got your bump out, Zara? Have you been out with it out in like a crop or a midi or something? No, I've not got like my bare belly out. But I have, I do wear quite, you know, bodycon tight fitted clothing. So you can 100% tell I'm pregnant. There's no hiding the bum. But you haven't gone the whole Rihanna yet? Not, no, not the whole Rihanna.

Do you think you will? Do you think actually just seeing that is something I mean like obviously I take photos myself just for kind of you know um seeing the progression and of course they're like in a crop top or something I don't post stuff like that on Instagram um my page is a little bit more modest than getting you know my my belly out but I do think I wouldn't decline a shoot um you know with a photographer where I might do a pregnancy shoot and obviously just for myself um just to have something like that because I I do like it yeah well a lot of people can't quite imagine a bit like you walking around with their bump fully out but uh Jennifer it does go in waves in this doesn't it you know we had specific maternity wear then it's more like your

regular clothes um but a size up as you. And then we've gone through people wearing, women wearing, much tighter clothes to show off the bump. Yeah, you've definitely seen that. And I am interested to see if, you know, fast fashion does pick it up as a trend for maybe people, yeah, like I said, people who do dress more like Rihanna-esque when they're going out. And if they're still going out with their friends, they might want to, you know, just dress like how they used to dress. And, you know,

they're pregnant, show it off. Why not? So it will be interesting to see if it does trickle down to, say, ASOS or, I don't know, the fast fashion brands like H&M and Pretty Little Thing. Yeah, well, the fashion, the shoots, not just fashion shoots, the shoots of people being out with their bumps as well, is a big thing. And I I'm sure we'll I hope to see some of the images of our listeners coming in off the back of this discussion. All the best to you Zara with everything and thank you for talking to us that's Zara Bentley and Jennifer Michalski-Bry who is a celebrity stylist thank you to you for telling us what you are seeing and noticing and advising with your clients and more messages coming, not least about some of you saying you may have considered it, but you're not quite sure

about bearing the bump in different circumstances. Now, I did say, going back to politics, but far from these shores, South Korea picked a new president only a few days ago. Last week, Yoon Suk-yool, after a tumultuous election filled with personal attacks and scandal won. He's a conservative former top prosecutor with zero political experience who defeated his liberal rival after a campaign in which he promised to abolish the Ministry for Gender Equality denying that women face discrimination. South Korea has one of the worst women's rights records in the

developed world although modest gains have been made over the last few years. But that has ignited an anti-feminist backlash among many young men who see feminism as reverse discrimination, taking away their jobs and opportunities. So what does his election mean for women? To tell you a bit more, Laura Bicker, the BBC Seoul correspondent and the feminist South Korean filmmaker, Yujin Do. Yujin, welcome to you. Welcome

to Women's Hour. I'll come to you in just a moment. But Laura, give us an example. Give us a flavour of some of the statements made by the new political leader during his campaign. What was he saying with regards to women? Well, first of all, he questioned the existence of structural discrimination. And he said that many times during his campaign. And I think that was the centre kind of pledge that gender discrimination wasn't happening. Let me just get rid of any kind of myth and give you the facts, right? So in 2020, women were earning 67% of men. So the wage gap is there. It is the highest wage gap in the developed world. When it comes to sex crimes, for instance, the sentencing was historically low. South Korea, for 10 years running, has remained at the bottom of the Economist Glass Ceiling Index. So gender

discrimination, by all factual evidence, is there. Now, what he did was, and we went to the campaign headquarters, he put these disaffected, frustrated young men who feel that the job market is shrinking, they're struggling to get an apartment. And key to this is they have to serve military service in South Korea. So you have to spend a year and a half somewhere of not of your choosing carrying out military service. And that is because obviously, this country is still at war, North Korea is still an issue. So they have all of these issues. But what he did was put this forum, and he put young men in his campaign office to talk to other young men, I went to, I went to meet them, and I spent hours with them just discussing some of these issues. And they really feel that women have had it too easy. They discussed kind of the weaponization of feminism. They said that some feminists have

gone too far, had strayed from the path. And that kind of goes into their language. They talk about being femi, which means a bit of a mental illness. And so they've kind of gone into this really deep-rooted campaign of trying to root out feminists. And that is having an effect, because I went from the campaign headquarters to meet young feminists who run a YouTube station, and they couldn't talk to me on camera. They couldn't face the cameras,

because they feared a backlash if they were seen. So that shows you the two different sides. But that was what, you know, certainly for young women, was at the centre of the campaign. Well, let's talk to Yujin Do, because hearing what it's like from your perspective is important. What is it like to be a feminist in South Korea at the moment? So, OK, so after the election, a lot of women around me,

we are literally devastated. So okay, so what happened was South Korea's next president, Yoon, as Laura already pointed out, he said publicly during his campaign, during entire campaign, he said there is no such thing as systemic or structural discrimination based on sex or gender doesn't exist anymore in South Korea. But if you look at all the statistics related to gender equality in South Korea, you're going to see us at the bottom of the bottom. So it does exist in this country, but many still keep denying this simple fact, including Yoon. So it makes everything even much harder. And as you see, like the main entire strategy of Yoon's camp was based on misogyny. So I'm really worried about it, and I feel super terrified to see how Korean society

will suffer from this hatred under Yoon's regime. And also, Laura, like, Laura, you just said everything that I really wanted to talk about, like about all this, like, hatred on feminism online. 그리고 저는 이 모든 것들에 대해서 이야기하고 싶어요. 이런 혐의로, 페미니즘, 온라인, 온라인 등이 정말 유명합니다. 지금 지금 정말 일어나는 것은, 예를 들면, 많은 사람들이 섹시주의, 또는 역세스주의, 또는 역대급의 정신적 정신이 존재하는 것에 대해 생각하는 사람들이 많습니다. 그들은 매우 폭력적이고, 특히 온라인에서 아주 폭력적입니다. So many who think there is reverse sexism or reverse discrimination exist. They are extremely aggressive and really abusive, especially online. I think Korea is not the only country having this giant backlash.

But yeah, cyberbullying and cyberstalking is not something unusual here. That's how I feel. And also with this film production, because this my film is about what's going on in South Korea in terms of cyber sex crime including spy cam issue so with the film production I asked my interviewees several times to think really carefully before the filming yes because I was super worried about their safety I even discussed several times with field of vision how to protect my interviewees from all this cyber stalking and cyber bullying.

Let me just come in at that point, because you have just released a film called Open Shutters, which is following two women who were victims of spy cam porn or what's called MOLCA in South Korea. So that's what you're referring to there and that you're taking great care when asking women to talk to you about their experience, to think about whether talking to you at all. Are you concerned about even talking out today to us and generally and putting out productions at the moment since the election? Yeah, we, yeah, it's really, I really admire my interviewees' careers because sometimes it's really hard to speak up with

their real name and with their actual face, or line of frame, because it can lead to actual hate crime. But I see a silver lining despite this grim reality, because recently I see a lot of activists and also consisting of young men, they come forward and they show their messages with solidarity about this women's rights issue. So, yeah, I think we will not stop speaking up and we will keep fighting. Let me bring Laura back into this. Yujin, thank you so much for that. Of course, it wasn't only men who voted for the new president. Women will have also cast their vote because there are other issues such as the very high prices of rents and what's going on with property in the country. Are you getting a sense of a fear of law changes that will put women's rights back? I think one of the things that Yon-Yosuke has said

is that he is going to try to make sure that men are not wrongly accused of sex crimes. And I think that is a concern to women because actually at the moment, even amongst those convicted, 41% are given probation and 30% of those found guilty are given a fine. So especially when it comes to these, as you've just heard, the spy cam crimes, it's a real concern. I don't think outside of Asia you understand what stigma it is for women to have undergone these spy camera crimes.

I interviewed the parents of a young woman who had taken her own life. Her colleague had spent six months secretly spying on her. She was a nurse in a hospital and he'd spent six months spying on her through a small peephole. And she felt the stigma so badly that she decided to take her own life. And this is a woman that was about to get married. The parents took me to her apartment. Everything in the apartment was brand new, ready for a new life. And yet that young life was cut short.

And it's that stigma that women feel if they are the victim. And it's not just spy camera crimes. There are many, many other issues that they face and wage gap being one of them. So I think the fear is that having kind of stoked that division throughout the campaign, although he now denies it, he says that he has never stoked the gender divide, but he is going to go ahead and abolish the Ministry for Gender Equality. Well, we're going to have to leave it there for now, but it would be very interesting and important to catch back up with you and with Eugene Doe.

Laura Bicker there, the BBC Seoul correspondent and the feminist South Korean filmmaker, Eugene Doe. Just to tell you, thank you very much for many of your messages. I'll try and come back to those very shortly. But as mentioned, the Formula One world champion coming back to the UK, Lewis Hamilton, has revealed he's officially changing his name to incorporate his mother Carmen's surname, La Balestia. He says he wants to have her name to continue with the Hamilton name

and that he doesn't understand why when people get married, the woman loses her name. Well, it's understood he'll include it as a middle name rather than a surname. What impact could a high profile man taking this step have? I caught up with Dr. Jane Pilcher, Associate Professor of Sociology at Nottingham Trent University. I think it'll open people's minds up to the issues around marital surnaming and the surnaming of children. I think someone in Lewis's position, being a celebrity, a well-known public person, has a bit of protection about making these kinds of decisions.

Sometimes I think we've seen celebrities giving unusual names, let's say, to their children, whereas more normal people would perhaps feel a bit too conscious about that so I think he's he's in a kind of privileged position his sort of celebrity status gives him that kind of protection about making these kinds of decisions and you know people are reporting it as a news item so it is going to make a difference to people's understandings of these issues and they kind of open up their minds perhaps to the possibility of moving away from traditional practices around how we have family surnames and what they might mean. So in this instance the name that he's taking his mother's surname is going in as a middle name at this point but are we seeing the popularity of having the mother's name as a surname grow? I don't think we can say that yet.

I think there are kind of loosening norms, loosening traditions around marital surnaming and family surnaming. But I think it's significant that Lewis has chosen to put his mother's surname as part of his, essentially becomes a sort of pre-surname or a middle name, essentially. It might have been more interesting had he done it the other way around and prioritised his mother's surname rather than Hamilton. What is the history of women changing their names in this country? Well, I think if we go back into history, we can think about how women didn't have an independent legal status separate from a man. They were either the daughter of someone or the wife of someone. And, you know, in that sense, women were the property of men.

And therefore, any children that might come from a marriage, the children would be the property of the man, not the woman. And that was the case for a long time, legally speaking. And, you know, we kind of still have that hangover from that. There are no rules about what you can do at marriage in terms of your surname. There are no rules really about how you name your children in terms of surnames. But we have these very, very strong traditions that mean that, you know, on the whole, most women who marry a man, something still about 75% of women who marry a man still change their surname entirely to his. And most children, and by that I mean over 90% of children,

American evidence suggests that over 90% of children are surnamed after their father, irrespective of the marital status of their parents. I think what you said at the beginning is very interesting, that Lewis Hamilton has some protection because of their parents. I think what you said about at the beginning is very interesting that Lewis Hamilton has some protection because of being famous so they perhaps he feels that he can buck the trend and buck the norms there because as you say people feel that perhaps there's something wrong or transgressive you know there'll be some listening saying I never did this I went my own way but about not giving if they are in a heterosexual relationship,

about not giving the man's surname to their children. There's a concern that they won't have the same name as well. We've seen some of those issues. Yes, that's right. So, you know, we like to feel connected to our children. We like to think of ourselves as a family. And for many people, having a shared surname is an important part of signaling that belonging to a family and you know it can cause problems if you don't share the same surname as your child when you're a parent so you know it can be a pragmatic choice as much as anything just to make life easier if you don't mind me asking what have you done in your family because you you've of course studied this and thought about this yes and i my my kind of interest in names actually came from my

own kind of naming dilemmas if you like so i have two children and before the birth of my first child we spent as much time talking about what we were going to do in terms of the surname as we did about this the full name choice so in the end my my surname pilcher is the kind of first part of the surname for my children. And then their father's surname is the second part. And then we also insisted on not having a hyphen, which is a whole other world of pain, because, you know, typically where you do have two surnames, they are in English, English language cultures, at least they are hyphenated. And so that can cause a problem as well.

I'm not sure if Lewis is hyphenating his new kind of surname combination or not. Well, also, I'm just minded to mention it's not long ago that the campaign that had been going for a few years now to have mothers' surnames on marriage certificates was only actually won. You know, it's very, very recent because, you know, in terms of losing names, which is what he said he's been inspired by, lots of people have no idea of the names of the women who came before them, the full names.

That's right. Women's surnames do get lost when we just kind of discard them at marriage and we don't give them to our children. You know, anyone who's done any sort of researching of their ancestry, family history, will know how difficult it is to track down the women in history because of this, you know, this change in their identities at a most fundamental level in terms of how they're recorded officially in history.

They just get lost. Do you think women should be keeping their names? And if they do have children, having their name as part of their children's name um i think you know as as ever with these things it's up to the individual i would like if people thought about it more and didn't do such an automatic you know i'm going to change my name at marriage think about the consequences of that think about what happens for example if your marriage doesn't survive and you get divorced and then you your children have one, have your ex-partner's name, but no part of your own name.

There are kind of long, long term consequences of these decisions that we make about our identities. And they do stretch into the future and they stretch back into the past as well. Just a final thought on that, because I mean, I think it's apart from perhaps it being a feminist statement, which it would be for a lot of women if they don't take the name when getting married uh in a in a heterosexual union where it's all very traditional it's also just a lot of paperwork if you want to go and change your name and I've always found how can anybody be bothered and who is that person once they've changed their name but the thing I was going to say to you is there is sometimes people say it's romantic to have the same name you You know, regardless of the children side of things,

we're getting married and he would really like that. What do you say to that, the romance argument? Well, if it's romantic, why is it always the woman who has to give up their surname and kind of make that romantic declaration? If it's a romantic thing, then it should be a 50-50 thing, you know, but the pattern is, as I've said, that it's it's

women who do this giving up of their surnames with all the kind of consequences that have that caused. I do know a man he might even be listening right now who did take his wife's surname and it's a it's a beautiful surname and I think they are genuinely of the of the mindset that she had the better name so they went with hers. Well it can indeed come down to things like the aesthetics of the surname and there can be a whole load of different reasons why people might might make that kind of decision but at least they're talking about it and thinking about it and they have a reason for doing that whereas i i do wonder whether most uh people women who change their surname when they get married have have a reason a real reason for doing it. Other than that, it's the done thing. It's the expected thing.

Dr. Jane Pilchard. I did say we would return to Threats, which is our series about the emotional power of old clothes we cannot bear to part with. And one of you has got in touch. Thank you so much. So many of you have. Purnima got in touch with us when she heard one of our other stories

and joins me now from Hove. Good morning, Purnima. Good morning. Can you hear me? I'm hoping we've got you there. Purnima, we're hoping to talk to you about a very beautiful sounding dress that we're going to post an image of on social media. She'll just be coming through in just a moment, but I can also bring you some breaking news, some very good hopeful news, we hope. I'm aware these things do change and this is a highly sensitive one. But Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, who has been detained in Iran since 2016 in prison and under house arrest, has had her passport returned and a British negotiating team is in Tehran, according to her MP. Tulip Sadiq has tweeted, I'm very pleased to say that Nazanin has been given her British passport back. She's still at her family home in Tehran. Tulip goes on to say, I also understand

there is a British negotiating team in Tehran right now. I will keep posting updates as I get them. We spoke to her sister-in-law, Rebecca Ratcliffe, who told us that her brother Richard, of course, Nazanin's husband, who's been on the programme quite a few times on this very long journey, had been in touch and that she's also had a text from Nazanin herself. Again, another story we very much hope to stay with. But I'm now told Purnima is on the line. Good morning, Purnima. Good morning, Emma. How are you?

OK, all the better for talking to you. Tell us about this dress that you cannot bear to be parted from. Describe it for us. Yes, it's a woolen dress. It was hand-knitted for me in Uganda when I was about eight or nine years old my mum had her friend knit it for me and it's an absolutely beautiful work of art and I was about 10 when we were expelled from Uganda and I arrived in London as a refugee. And my mom had asked me to pack my favorite belongings in my little suitcase.

And this is the dress that I packed and I brought with me. And I've kept it and treasured it because, A, it's just so beautifully made. And it brings back a lot of memories of watching all the mums sitting on verandas after siesta time. And all of us children were playing on the streets and the women were sharing all their skills with each other and and and presumably coming up with these sorts of patterns uh you know and sharing them together yes they they they shared all their knowledge and skills with each other because we lived in a very multicultural community and um all living side by side in this little town, Mbale, in the foothills of Mount Elgin,

where we didn't have TVs and not too many cinemas around. So the pastime was sharing hobbies and skills with each other. It's a lovely memory to be able to share, but it's also i'm sure you know laced with emotion as well for you uh and a memory of of a different life in a different land where do you keep the the the clothing now where do you keep it the dress i i stored it away in a plastic storage container with along with my mum's silk saris, which are very protected.

And every time I go up to the loft, when I look at the saris, I also touch the dress and look at it and admire it, thinking, well, when I first brought it here, I was thinking that maybe I'll wear this dress in London when I go to London. And I think I just wore it once. Really? It was too small.

But it's such a beautiful dress that I've kept it all these years. And it hasn't got any moth holes or it's just so protected. Well, we will share an image of it and thank you so much for telling us your story and the stories connected to it. And thank you for your company to all of you today. We'll be back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. Here we go, Oti. Five, six, seven, eight. Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain. And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that. Dance, it really, I think, saved my life. Join me, Oti Mabuse, as I delve into the lives of the innovators and the mall breakers who have changed dance forever. Gene Kelly was this working class guy that I just really connected with that. Ultima Busa's Dancing Legends on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds.

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