Woman's Hour - Is the Women's Equality Party disbanding? Anna Maxwell Martin, Sexual Assault Referral Centres

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

The Women’s Equality Party is urging members to vote to close down the party next month, just under 10 years after it began. The founders say financial challenges and a changed political landscape mean their campaigning model no longer works. Nuala McGovern is joined by the Guardian’s Emma Graham-Harrison and Jemima Olchawski from the Fawcett Society to discuss.The BAFTA-winning actress Anna Maxwell Martin stars as Delia in the new ITV series Until I Kill You. It tells the true story of Delia Balmer, who was the girlfriend of serial killer John Sweeney. Anna joins Nuala to talk about why she wanted to tell Delia’s story, as well as her personal experiences of grief and struggles with the special educational needs system. A new study has evaluated the effectiveness of Sexual Assault Referral Centres (SARCs), which offer specialist support to survivors of sexual violence. According to the research led by Coventry University, the majority of survivors surveyed reported a positive experience. To discuss the findings, we speak to the project lead Lorna O’Doherty, Professor of Trauma and Mental Health at Coventry University; and a woman we're calling Lauren who has accessed the services of a SARC.The Colombian artist Alejandra Aristizabal creates 3D artwork using a native Colombian plant called the Fique. Her art helps to give a voice to indigenous women and raise awareness of the work they do. She is currently part of a residency programme at Christie's of London supporting artists who are using their work to bring about change. Alejandra joins Nuala to tell us more.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lottie Garton

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, you're very welcome to Monday's edition of the programme. Now, you might have seen that the leader of the Women's Equality Party has said the party is no longer the most effective way to campaign for women's rights, though its mission for gender equality remains as urgent as ever. Mandu Reid and the co-founders are calling for members to vote to end the party at a special meeting next month.

We're going to hear more about the reasons in a moment, but I'd also like to hear from you. What are the issues that you think still need to be addressed by politicians on gender equality following the anticipated end of the Women's Equality Party. The way to get in touch, the number is 84844 to text us

on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100444. Also today, Anna Maxwell Martin She has a new

true crime drama coming out and we do speak about that but also about why she wants schools to be more inclusive and we also talk about dealing with grief

after an unexpected unexpected death We'll also be live in Bogota Colombia to hear how an artist is raising awareness about the women

in her community through her art through a native plant, the figgy. It's the first time I learned about it. Plus, we'll have details on a study on sexual assault referral centres, or SARCs as they're also known.

The study shows that there's a lack of awareness about the help that they can provide to survivors. We will hear one woman's story. But let me begin about the Women's Equality Party when it was launched back in 2015. It said there was a need for a party to campaign for gender equality to the benefit of all. The co-founders, comedian Sandy Toksvig and the journalist Catherine Meyer, wanted to do things differently, focusing more on affecting change rather than seeking elected office. But, citing financial challenges and a changed political landscape,

a meeting has been called for next month where the leadership will recommend that members vote to close down the party. I should say we invited a representative on to speak with us today, but they're not available at this time. But to discuss, I am joined by The Guardian's Emma Graham-Harrison, who broke the story. Also, Jemima Olhavsky, CEO of the Fawcett Society, a charity campaigning for gender equality and women's rights.

You're both very welcome to Woman's Hour this morning. Emma, you got the exclusive on this story. How do you understand why they have made this decision now? Hi, good morning. So, and thanks for having me on. They were very clear that this was not about any change in the urgency around campaigning for women's equality. They definitely think that fight still has a very long way to go.

I think we can all look around and see that. What they said is there's changes to the way politics and media operate in the UK. Their plan had always been to grab attention through to the issues that they were trying to highlight through their campaigning, not necessarily expecting in a first-past-the-post system to get into office. You know, something that the rest of us perhaps became aware of with the Brexit referendum, that you could have a massive impact on politics without necessarily getting into Parliament. And they say that model isn't working so much. The Conservative Party have gone further to the right and are less interested in listening to their ideas. They're also not getting traction within Labour,

perhaps because they have such a big majority. The media landscape has very little space, they say, or less space for progressive parties. It's interesting. There was a study out of Loughborough University about the last election. Even for much bigger parties than them, we saw that the Liberal Democrats who got 72 seats got less time in papers on TV and on the radio than Reform, who ended up with five MPs. And, you know, the Green Party and Women's Equality Party got even less time. So they say this sort of model of getting media attention is harder. And then funding has always been a challenge. I mean, we're seeing that in America, controversies around political funding. And for a small party like Women's Equality Party, that was always particularly difficult.

And they're appealing to women mostly. Of course, they very much wanted men and men have been supporters, members from the beginning. But, you know, women are the poorer half of the population. That's one of the reasons for founding the party. And, you know, the pandemic and the cost of living crisis hit everybody and hit women particularly hard. So really, it was a combination of feeling that the financial challenges of keeping going and then their model of influencing political change wasn't really working. It's so interesting, that model that you talk about, because, you know, when you speak about the election that just happened, Liberal Democrats, I'm thinking of Sir Ed Davey and the various stunts,

which he says he needed to do to get media attention. Listening as well is Jemima. Good to have you with us, Jemima. I mean, how are you seeing this announcement by the Women's Equality Party? I think what the Women's Equality Party have done really effectively

is put front and centre that there is a huge gaping hole in our politics that is women's representation and women's interests. And they absolutely were unashamedly advocating for a politics that addresses the inequality

women still experience. And as we've heard, that is still a huge challenge. Women are still underrepresented in our politics. They're still underrepresented in public life. That has implications for the quality of our politics. But also we know that having women in positions of power changes the issues that get discussed

and the decisions that get made. It's clearly been a very tough decision and a tough environment for them. And I think it's a loss to the political space that we won't have that kind of singular voice on this anymore.

I suppose it's kind of an impossible question to answer, Edmama. But do you think the model could have changed? Emma was outlining there the way the politics is or the way what gets attention

at the moment and that they weren't able to break through. Funding, I suppose, being a massive part of that. There's no doubt that funding is a huge challenge for all women's organisations that are trying to exert influence. But also we know that change is often slow. You know, our founder Millicent Fawcett started her campaigning for women's right to vote when she was just 19 years old and it was sort of a lifetime later that she was finally successful along with obviously many other women and achieving that it was a lifetime's work on that one campaign and unfortunately organizations don't always have the kind of resulting or the time scales to to work in that way but what i would say is we know that change does happen when women

stand together and we've seen women's equality party mobilize thousands of women engage women get them to stand get them to get involved in politics perhaps for the first time and i guess what i would say to those women is that this isn't over. That energy still has a home. There are still lots of ways to get involved in and push for change. You can join the Fawcett Society. We're fighting to make sure women are represented in our politics and that we get the best out of this government for women.

You can take that experience, those values, and become really powerful advocates for women and for feminism right across your community. But at the same time, with this backdrop of the Women's Equality Party not surviving in that way. Emma, what would you say are some of their main achievements? Well, I mean, it's very interesting, just in response to what Jemima just said.

In their interview with me, they said that one of the great achievements and great legacies is exactly that, convincing women, making it possible, making it accessible for women, incredibly talented women to come into politics who perhaps hadn't considered it before. They say they're going to continue doing activism

in other forms. So I think they were very much back the message she had. In terms of what they've done, I mean, they did, despite, you know, saying that now the media landscape's challenged, they had some really interesting campaigns. In 2019, they stood survivors of abuse against MPs from every party, it wasn't targeted a particular party, who had unresolved allegations of abuse against them. So that, you know, women who'd had personal experience were given a platform and a voice to speak to men who were facing allegations. And not a single one of those candidates was returned to Westminster. So, you know, they would say that was a very strong model of success, not through getting elected, but through challenging the system.

They have, you know, raised the profile of issues from care, you know, I think the policy of universal free childcare, which was at the heart of their manifesto, really, from the beginning, the idea that, you know, because childcare costs fall disproportionately on women, if it's not accessible, women and, you know, therefore the whole of society will suffer. It's something that you've really seen kind of mainstreamed, I think, in British politics, really. So things like that, their sense that they were creating policies to be stolen and to have them come into the mainstream has very much, I think, worked. They were, you know, another national historical thing. They were the first party to be led by a woman of colour, first UK political party, you know, that sort of a model of intersectional collaborative politics, working with other parties. So, you know, they obviously are

sad to be recommending this. I should say that they were very clear in the interview that it's not their decision that this is being put to the party and it's going to be a democratic decision. But I think they are, you know, sad to be recommending it, but very proud of that record of bringing brilliant women into politics, changing the way people centre women's issues. I mean, they said at the very first hustings they attended, their candidate for mayor of London was the first person I think spoke last to directly address women's concerns.

Yes, I do remember that. Yes. And you mentioned there it's going to a vote next month, but is it a done deal, do you think, that it will be disbanded? I mean, I am not an expert in British politics. I imagine if you have the leader of the party who's voting herself out of a job, if she's supporting this motion, that if you've trusted someone to become the leader, you'd be taking their advice. So I suspect it's probably quite likely. But, you know, they're very keen to say this is this is democratic process.

And so their members will be voting. A couple of pieces in your article is talking about getting survivors of male violence to stand against those MPs who had allegations of abuse or harassment against them. I did see that the Women's Equality Party called it that. We effectively performed a laundry service for Westminster. But you did also mention in another part of your article, Emma, that a bitter internal debate over transgender

rights had taken place. What impact do you think that issue had on this decision to disband, if at all, as far as you're aware? I mean, as far as I'm aware, that wasn't something that was central to this decision. I mean, I was in Ukraine covering the war, I think, at the time, but they had this very open discussion process within the party. You know, it's something that obviously has been uh debated in different parts of the British feminist movement but they had an open assembly and came to a movement which was supported by the party and which was held by many people as a sort of model for how to address very controversial issues oh yeah and that is I believe modelled on the Irish Citizens Assembly which they used on a referendum on abortion in Ireland that that particular model interesting that they decided

to use it too. Back to you Jemima, getting into the specifics of the political system in the UK do you think first past the post that system is also an obstacle for a party like the women's equality party being able to sustain absolutely i mean it's very well established that first past the post makes it different difficult for new parties um to kind of have a big impact is also associated with lower levels of women's representation. I think overall, our politics is not friendly to women. And I absolutely welcome we have the most women in Parliament ever, which is absolutely fantastic news, incredible progress. But nevertheless, it does remain an uphill struggle. Our research finds that only 37% of women in Parliament think that it is a place that is inclusive for people like them. Many MPs talk about the impact of online abuse and that silencing them and them not wanting to get involved in certain online media discussions. And also, it's important to note that while the overall proportion of women in Parliament has increased, each party has elected a slightly lower proportion of women than they had before the election.

I think it's really important to be aware that progress isn't set in stone and we need to keep pushing forward. If you mentioned childcare and most definitely when we were doing the women's election debate with senior women from the parties, childcare was very much they had their policies on it ready at the tip of their tongue. What else? Because I'm asking our listeners here also what issues they think still remain to be decided as we have this anticipated end of the Women's Equality Party. What would be your number one? Well, just one is tough, Nuala. But I think a really fundamental thing that we need to shift is the balance of who does unpaid care work, which underpins a lot of the inequalities in our economy. So the government committed to reviewing parental leave.

I'd really love to see a real overhaul of that system so that men are properly incentivized and remunerated to take that time i think that can lead to some really fundamental changes in our workplaces as well as how we care at home and of course the unpaid carers and that that is a very much a topic of discussion in the news at the moment with the new government i want to thank both my my guests, Jemina Olhavsky, who you're hearing there, CEO of the Fawcett Society, the Campaigns for Gender Equality, and also the Guardian's Emma Graham Harrison, who broke that story, which you can find online. 84844, we talked about childcare there, we talked about unpaid care work. What is the issue that you think remains unresolved that you would like politicians to attack as we look at this potential

disbandment of the Women's Equality Party next month? I want to turn to the story next of Delia Balmer. This is a story that you may not have heard before. Delia was one of the girlfriends of John Sweeney, a serial killer who was convicted of killing two women, both his former girlfriends.

He attacked Delia herself with an axe and at one point she was tied up and held hostage by him for four days. In 2017, Delia wrote a book detailing these horrific experiences. It's called Living with a Serial Killer. Now ITV have created a drama based on that book and it's called Until I Kill You, which tells Delia's story. Motherland and Line of Duty actress Anna Maxwell-Martin plays Delia. I spoke to her a little earlier and asked her if she could tell us a little bit about Delia. So Delia is somebody who is quite anti-establishment. She loves travelling.

She loves dancing she loves life but she isn't somebody I don't I get really uncomfortable talking about Delia because I feel like it should be Delia talking about herself rather than somebody talking for her but she definitely isn't somebody who feels she needs to tread the party line she is very much her own person very strident of opinion so I guess in a nutshell that's who Delia is. Yeah you've met her right? I met her on set I didn't meet her before we started shooting but she visited set a couple of times. I hadn't heard about her before until i watched um the show which is gripping is one word i could use really compelling just just pulled me in i think she's an unusual person in some ways i think of her own own volition she's an unusual person. Yes. She doesn't shy away from that. She is an unusual person.

And I think what we're trying to do, I mean, this story is adapted from Delia's book. So Delia wrote a book about her experience at the hands of John Sweeney and then what she suffered on her journey through the criminal justice system at the hands of the police. So the book was the starting point. And then Nick, who wrote the script, still has a very good relationship with Delia, they're friends, they know each other very well. And so he used the book as a starting point. And then, I guess, decided in his dramatization of that, which direction to go in and what to focus on and I think very much and I hope we've achieved a story which is not just about the victimisation of a female as Delia likes to call herself but what it looks like to be a victim when you're not cookie cutter and you don't toe the party line when you are not considered to be

a conventional person or what we expect how we expect victims should present themselves what that looks like for that person and so I hope we've told that story. What impact did it have then playing the role of Delia on you as an actor? It's something I get very nervous about, talking about impact as an actor. Why is that? Because what Delia went through was incredibly impactful. Delia suffered from PTSD following the attack and then being forced to testify against him in a public arena.

And so it feels very marginalising to talk about impact as an actor. It's not my story, it's Delia's story. However, in the past I have brushed off those things, like, la-la-la, I don't want to talk about it, I'm just a good, fun girl on set. But actually the reality is that when you play scenes where you are portraying somebody who has PTSD, is a traumatised person, is fearful, and you're filming scenes with violence,

you are creating bad chemicals in your body because you're really there, you're in it. You're trying to be as authentic as possible. So you are creating, you know, cortisol, adrenaline, lots of stuff that you shouldn't maybe be creating for 12 hours a day. So there is definitely a wind down. I feel it more acutely when I do a play, when you have to become overwrought in a play.

So you're repeating that maybe also sort of late at night when you're not definitely not supposed to be creating those chemicals at nine o'clock at night you know so I think over time you start to think oh I feel a bit disheveled now but that's as far as I would go in terms of impact it's's really such a story, some of it difficult to watch, but important to tell her story. And I know you say you're not speaking for Delia, but it was something I hadn't heard about before. And just the way it recreates the time and the place is compelling and at times horrifying. But I want to move on to a couple of other aspects in your life as well. Of course, you've a lot of work that is going on. You've had a busy year.

Yes. You're on our screens alongside David Mitchell in Ludwig. Yes. Huge success. I know. It's done really well. We're pleased. So you've got comedy, drama, detective series there.

But you also had Line of Duty at the other end. You had the hated DCS Patricia Carmichael. Oh, come on. I think, well, I'll leave it up to my listeners. No, you're right. She sleeps in a coffin, doesn't she? Any particular character you're drawn to? I loved her.

Oh, God. I'd play Pat again in a heartbeat. Love Pat. I loved filming Motherland. I really enjoy all my work now. I just did a play in the summer with James Corden at the Old Vic, and that was challenging and very rewarding. I feel lucky that I've been able to do a sort of breadth of stuff from comedy to your gritty dramas.

It has been a particularly busy year for you. Do you know why that is? Gosh, that's an interesting question. Do you know, after my husband died three years ago. Yeah, I'm really sorry. I know you have two young daughters as well. Thank you, Neil. I'm sorry.

And things were really difficult in every aspect of our lives. And one of those was that there's lots of stuff that comes with grief. And one of them is financial terror. And then there are real practicalities around your children and their mental health and supporting them, which is your priority. So going to work and doing my job is inordinately difficult. It meant there were suddenly 99% of jobs I couldn't do and I wasn't really being offered them either.

I don't know what vibe I was giving off, but looking back, I was probably in a state of shock and fear and a sort of heightened state for a long time, actually until very recently. And I really had to think, what can I do that means I'm separate from my children for as short time as possible? That first year was gruelling. I could hardly leave my children.

And so I started doing a lot of panel shows, presenting. I just thought, I've got to keep this ship on the road. And people were sort of, and I loved it. I really loved it. You know, I've trod this road before of grief and sudden traumatic death. I've done it before. And so in a way, I could pick myself up and do it again. It was horrible to have to see my children walk that road. But I'm pretty gritty. I'm pretty strong. And I think I'm quite deft, I hope, at navigating life. And I thought I've just got to keep the motor chugging on. And it did. It kind of then I got a job that led to another job that led to a job and the momentum just built. And now I've had a really busy year and I feel super grateful. And of course, the kids are like, can you be off work now? So I think that's part of it. Work momentum is really important in our profession. It's a really hard profession to keep going at. It's been difficult for a lot of people.

Strikes, post-Cov um post covid yeah really difficult you know i'm struck by um you said this is not the first time that you experienced uh grief that came after a traumatic event yeah um i know you sadly lost your father ivan very young and somebody told me about grief before that sometimes that second time you feel it you're like oh god I remember this you know and that there's almost a muscle memory that's there in what you have to do yeah yes exactly but also when you have children yes that's a completely different framework yeah when it happened to me when I was 24, I was very lonely. And I don't know, you could say that's sort of indulgent, but I was. I was very isolated because no one had been through what I'd been through.

I didn't know those people. Yes. And then when it happened with Rog, I saw it more as we've all got to keep it together for the kids. Your former husband, Roger Michelle. I also think there's something about being a woman in your 40s, and by then, if you're lucky enough, you will have succeeded in having the best friends

and best people around you. You'll have stopped making mistakes in that area of your life, and I really did. I had exceptional friends, an exceptional support network. That's not to say, Nuala, that I didn't feel isolated, and I don't still feel isolated, because I do. I deal with a very specific set of circumstances around my children and myself, and I do sometimes feel like that and of course I again I don't know anybody who's been through what my children have been through

um I now work with lots of children in crisis so I I know of other things but obviously there's always specificity to your story so my focus was just on them um and i didn't really start to agree for roger until probably six months ago yeah it's still a very short space of time yeah it's only three years only three years yeah yeah um you talk about circumstances specific circumstances i know you have a great passion which you share with a lot of Women's Hour listeners which is about shedding light really on the situation for children with special educational needs and the way that school systems work or don't work as the case may be. I mean this started for me because I have two children with SEND needs and one who is struggling to get those SEND needs met.

So I suppose that started me on this journey. So I know you've covered SEND brilliantly on the programme and sort of trying to get EHCPs and things like that, which are really difficult to navigate, difficult to get. I think the problem is wider. And what I believe and what I'm trying to campaign for and shed some light on is that I think we maybe we need to shift the conversation away from schools. Because I think often within schools, you have people who are really there for the right reasons. They really are there because they want to have they have compassion towards children and they want to help children.

There's a systemic problem. And that is that children's needs are not being met, maybe schools are not being supported. I don't know enough about it yet but what we need to do is we need to really go roots down at talking about inclusion in schools. This idea of exclusion in schools is really difficult. The stats around that are really depressing. We're starting to normalise in under-18-year-olds the criminalisation of children, not meeting their needs, not educating them in a holistic fashion, getting them out of school when they don't meet the criterias

so they feel like others. We need to help schools and then help children to really, really bring compassion. Compassion. That's what it's about. We know from the stats that many children are not getting their needs met in schools. And that is not to diss the teachers. I really believe they're doing their best

and certainly my youngest has had a couple of exceptionally kind and compassionate teachers. But navigating that system for a child is so hard. For their parents, it's really hard. After Roger, I found it impossible to navigate the system. I found it impossible to get the system. I found it impossible to get my child's needs met. It's really brutalising. Sorry, I've been really rude, but I'm really passionate about it. And I'd love us to talk more because I think it is a crisis, really rumbling

that is not serving our children's needs is a catastrophe. It is an issue. I don't think I've ever had such a response from when we do these items or indeed full programmes on children. We'd send the parents as well who are trying to navigate that system. I can hear your passion about it as well. Just on your way in, you alluded to the fact you have something else going back to the work. You'll be on the go, but you probably can't mention it yet. Is it a secret? You never can say, can you, to leave the sign on the dotted line. Oh, all right. I'm really curious what it's going to be.

I know your many fans will be wanting to know what it is. It's very funny and very silly. and it's a brilliantly written script so no i thought i was going to have a very protracted and long advent nula where i'd just be stuffing chocolate advent calendars into not gonna happen lying around that's not going to happen so um mind you if you wait till after christmas you get to advent calendars half price don't you you do so maybe I'll snuffle up a few of those and then just sit there over New Year, just opening the doors. Anna Maxwell-Martin there talking to me about many, many issues. Her true crime drama, Until I Kill You, is on ITV1 and ITVX from the 3rd to the 6th of November at 9pm. And then the accompanying documentary, Until I Kill You, The Real Story, is ITV1 on the 7th of November at 9pm. And then the accompanying documentary, Until I Kill You, The Real Story,

is ITV1 on the 7th of November at 9pm. Thanks very much. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, you may have heard in the news bulletins today that Police Scotland have reported a 20% rise in rape allegations in just a year. They're hoping it is down to an increase in confidence in reporting, but do admit that the figures may represent merely the tip of the iceberg. So what about the services that are there to help when you've been through a sexual assault? Well, there's a new study from Coventry University that has found that sexual assault referral

centres, or SARCs, offer excellent care to survivors of sexual violence, but they need to be accessible to a wider group of people with more awareness about their existence. The study interviewed over 300 survivors and 70 staff members and analysed data from 21 SARC centres. One of the more uplifting of the results from this study is that the majority of survivors that were surveyed reported a positive experience interacting with the SARC. To discuss the findings I'm joined by the project lead Lorna O'Doherty who's Professor of Trauma and Mental Health at Coventry University. Welcome Lorna. Perhaps you could also tell us just a little bit more. I mentioned SARC that defines a sexual assault referral centre but how would you describe the centre?

Oh good morning and thank you for having me on. So a SARC or a sexual assault referral centre can be a first point of care for any survivor. I think it's important to remember that this is irrespective of the person's age, their gender or how long it's been since the abuse has occurred. And they can be reached 24-7. They offer crisis emotional support, care related to pregnancy testing and emergency contraception. SOICs also assist with screening for STIs, or sexually transmitted infections, and other sexual health care. And they will offer medical assessment if a person is concerned about their health and injuries,

and also will offer access to forensic services if this is desirable. SOICs will provide a range of other choices for people about follow-on care as well. And who runs them? So NHS England is the lead commissioner for Sarks of which there are around 50 across England and then the Sarks are run at a local level by different organisations so by the private sector, there are NHS-led SARCs, charity-led SARCs, and also police-led SARCs. And there's an important distinction to be made between SARCs, which are a statutory service, and then the other forms of specialist service provision for survivors in the voluntary sector. So that division, as you say,

depending on how they are funded, whether it is voluntary or indeed statutory of the state. You know, before we hear a little bit more about what you found, Lorna, I want to bring our listeners a woman's story. We're calling her Lauren.

She has access services at a sexual assault referral centre. I actually found out about them through my mum. So I sort of had been struggling for a while after experiencing sexual violence. And a couple of months later, I think it was clear my behaviour wasn't very normal. I wasn't doing too well. So I disclosed to my mum what had happened to me. And she, you know, being the amazing woman she is, jumped straight online and did a quick search and found the sharks. And that was sort of how it all

began. So you mentioned that there was sexual violence there that you hadn't been doing well for a while. Are you comfortable telling us any more details about the path that kind of brought you to that point? Absolutely. Yeah, so in terms of what I experienced, I was raped multiple times. And essentially after that, it was obviously, as you can imagine, very upsetting, very confusing, very traumatic. And my sort of approach was to try and carry on

with my life as normal. So I just kept very busy, just kind of kept moving, trying not to think. And then after about two, two and a half months, it just became really clear that that wasn't going to work. Looking back, I now understand that what I was experiencing was, you know, classic post-traumatic stress symptoms, so nightmares, flashbacks, being very on alert and was just really struggling with my my mental well-being um more than anything else and and that's when I kind

of reached out and admitted that I needed some specific help. And were the SARCs as they're called a sexual assault referral centres was that the first place or people that you spoke to in a professional setting? I had actually spoken to, I tried two different counsellors prior to going to the SARC, neither of whom were sort of trauma informed or trauma specialists, certainly not specialists in sexual violence. And I found the process of speaking to those two individuals very upsetting I was essentially made to for the entire hour of the sessions go through in pretty excruciating detail exactly what I'd been through and both times was very destabilized completely re-traumatized and I'd sort of was starting to lose faith that counselling was the right thing for me to help me. But then going to the Sark,

walking into that environment where everyone is a specialist, it's a very trauma-centric, trauma-focused, survivor-focused space. It was just a world of difference and it was absolutely amazing how much it changed things for me. It's so interesting. I think you paint that picture of walking in somewhere that you are able to let your shoulders go down in some way by being understood of what you're going through what about after that that initial we'd say introduction that you had to Sark what happened afterwards that that worked for you? It was amazing really to be honest so as I sort of mentioned I went in to the Sarks initially just for help with my my mental health

I suppose and they were brilliant they were able to link me up with an independent sexual violence advisor or an ISFA who was very helpful in terms of sort of helping me understand why I was having nightmares, why I was feeling a certain way, helping me deal with them. And they also were able to help put me on a waiting list for a specialist counselling service locally, which only focused on survivors of sexual assault and abuse. So that was very, very transformative. But they also helped me with things that I hadn't really anticipated I might need help with um so you know obviously they could support with my mental wellness um but equally um because of sort of the violent aspect of what I'd been through

they picked up some concerns about potential internal damage um which led to me having a forensic medical exam sort of not in the traditional sense of gathering evidence but more from a health check perspective and I would never have thought to go and have that done myself because it just wasn't something that I was thinking about so that was very helpful in terms of the physical aspect and I also went into the Sark as somebody who was sort of on the fence about going through the criminal justice system. And they were incredible at helping me understand what the justice process was like, linking me up with specially trained police officers and helping me start that side of my journey as well. So there were really three pillars in terms of that care.

And I think the key differentiator in terms of all of the other services is that they brought those to me I didn't have to go anywhere um sit on any waiting lists explain to you know a gynecologist or a police person sitting on a helpline what I'd been through it was all kind of brought to me very easily everything was made very very smooth so I didn't have to keep repeating myself with different people. So you decided to go that route with the police as you mentioned there but that is in no way a prerequisite if you go to a SARC? Absolutely not and I think it's unfortunately a really common misconception and something that that definitely needs busting as a myth it's completely up to the survivor walking in as to whether they want to even entertain speaking to the police let alone going down the reporting process so the support is there if if somebody

needs it um but it's absolutely the two don't go hand in hand the sarks are only there to provide support in line with what you need as a person and you'll never be forced down a route of speaking to the police you said that your mum helps you find this service um why do you think there's such a lack of awareness about it i think it's unfortunately despite being a very well used service, sadly, which is the reality, it's not something I think is you're aware of until you need it. Which makes it difficult when you're in a headspace after going through something traumatic, you're not aware that that service is already there. But I do think despite the difficult subject matter, obviously, it's not something that people like talking about. It does need better awareness being raised around it so if someone does unfortunately go through an experience of sexual violence they know exactly where to turn to because

they are amazing resources how are you now lauren i'm doing well thank you yeah i am i've come a long way and i credit all of it to the SARC really and the services, particularly the counselling service that I was linked up with with that. And I'm not entirely sure where I'd be without it. That was a woman we're calling Lauren, who used a SARC sexual assault referral centre. We're also speaking to Lorna O'Doherty, who is a professor of trauma and mental health at Coventry University who carried out a study taking a look at these centres and how they provide help a couple of things there Lorna why do you think there's a lack of awareness about these centres? I do think it connects with as our previous speaker mentioned a misconception that SARCs are if you go to a SARC, you will be

expected to report to the police, or you may be expected to undergo a forensic exam. So yeah, these are significant barriers. And also being located within the Saturday sector may be not traditionally seen as an environment that would be survivor-centred and trauma-informed, but as the research has demonstrated that isn't the case. Any other misconceptions you think people should be aware about when it comes to Sork? I think they are the main ones really. Okay, what were you trying to find out with the study specifically? Well it arose out of recognition that we had all these SARCs that had sprung up around England but there was an absence of any sort of large-scale evaluation based on survivor voices and this was recognised by the National Institute for Health and Care Research and they

called for and funded this research to find out how SARCs were experienced by surface users and the extent to which they were meeting that need. We were also very interested in knowing about people's longer term experiences of health and well-being after they had access, care and support. So that was there was a bit of a gap in terms of that internationally. And yes, sorry, could I interrupt you just on that point? Because we did hear from Lauren there and her experience, but what did you find on that aspect? We have had lots of different angles on how we conducted this research. So we looked at studies from around the world to understand what works for survivors. So we had over 4000 people's experiences brought into that. We talked to lots of professionals.

We had a small study around children and young people's experience. And then we had this cohort study as well, where we followed up people over time. And that was really significant understanding about what the level of needs people had at the point they came into the research. So this was around 100 days after they had been to Sarks. That's when they tended to join the research. And within that, we were able to determine that people had very high levels of a very high level of trauma at the point they joined the study. And this came as a surprise, actually, to me, very high exposure to early childhood experiences that were negative and also to domestic abuse. So around 80 percent of the people who came into our study had experienced domestic abuse or had some exposure to it over their lifetime. And nearly half of

people had pre-existing mental health problems. So we're seeing a sense of the vulnerability there. And we also noted high rates of poor health and disabilities. So yeah, people's health was quite complex at the point they joined the study. But what did you find after the year of tracking people? So in terms of people's experiences of their mental health, we saw a reduction in, so when people joined the study, around 70% of people had PTSD or post-traumatic stress symptoms. And after a year, that had reduced to half the sample. So that was an important reduction, even though we would like to see that coming down some more. But participants had also rated their experience of the different services from beneficial to harmful.

And they were mostly positive about sexual assault referral centres. Just 1% of people reported those experiences had been harmful to them and in this sense they were talking about things like maybe arriving in the middle of the night with the police and the staff member not yet being there to meet them or feeling disempowered by not having adequate covering during the medical exam or overwhelmed by the level of information that they were being provided with and also the presence of police officers in the environment but these issues were few and far between. The majority of people we spoke to were very satisfied with the care they had received. So we've heard about the lack of awareness and

some of the misconceptions but what are the recommendations of your report? What are you calling for? Well we think it's really important to put out there that sexual assault referral centres deliver this high quality frontline service for survivors and are an effective gateway. This is a really important element, a gateway to health, to independent sexual violence advisors and to other voluntary sector services. And so raising awareness among members of the public, but also amongst professionals operating in different sectors like housing and mental health and so on. Secondly, our research shows the importance of having holistic care at SARCs because of the level of vulnerability that people bring when they come to SARC. This doesn't affect everyone, but there was a very high level of vulnerabilities. So these are things that can really disrupt people's efforts to access healthcare after they've been to Sark.

It can undermine their access to justice. And I think Sarks can be a part of breaking these cycles of inequality through designing pathways that really hold people. Yeah. And I think there's a real issue around access. So we were very much focused on people who've made it to SARCs. But I think you have to remember one over a million people each year report that they have experienced sexual assault in the past 12 months. 30,000 is the number of people who are accessing SARCs. Now, of course, people are getting help elsewhere. The voluntary sector is doing an incredible job at meeting unmet needs for survivors. But altogether, it's only tip of the iceberg. So, yes.

And do you feel, just in our last 30 seconds or so, that the improvements you're calling for or the changes will be met? I think we can't afford to be complacent. We mustn't take these findings for granted. There's definitely something very valuable about lots of different professionals, you know, thinking about the police, medical and nursing staff, stock managers, crisis workers,

independent violence advice, all working under one roof. There's, you know, great strength in this sort of collaboration and these professionals sharing their experience and working towards common goals. But as I said, this I said, we need to continue to work towards this because the landscape is always changing in this sort of terrain and the ways in which services are planned and delivered. We've got new providers and people entering and exiting the workforce and taking their experiences with them. So I think we must continue to work alongside one another and incorporate lived experience into all the decision making around research and service design. Which we got from Lauren as well. Thanks very much to Lauren for telling her story.

And thanks also to Lorna O'Doherty. If you do want more information on any of what we've been speaking about, if the conversation has affected you, there are, as always, resources on the BBC Action Line, which we have got a link to on our Women's Hour website. Now to the artist Alejandra Arestí Zébal. She was born in the mountainous, coffee-grown region of Western Colombia. She uses a plant called a figgy plant. It's from that area and she creates 3D artworks to raise awareness around local producers and also give a voice to indigenous communities.

Her work has just been exhibited at the Affordable Art Fair in London. She's also part of a residency programme at Christie's of London, which is supporting artists who are using their work to bring about change. That is Alejandra joining me today from Bogota in Colombia. And as I can see on my screen, sitting in front of her beautiful artwork that has been made with the figgy plant. Right. We need to describe this, Alejandra. And welcome to our listeners. Good morning and thank you very much for having me. Yes, I think that this is a really good opportunity to show a little bit of my piece, because maybe it's difficult to understand what is my work made of so how would we describe it what i feel i'm looking at hanging behind you

so a large scale wall hanging that almost looks like coils of brushed fibersres. Somebody might even think, if they think of like cotton threads, the way they come together, if we think of giant coils or skeins, as they've called, of stranded cotton, that's what it almost looks like, weaved up and down on the wall behind

you. What am I looking at? Somehow, somehow, yeah. What you're looking at is my my main material is called fiki which is a natural plant from colombia and south america but from colombia so what what you're looking at is a fiber that is came out from the leaf of the plant, which is called fike. So I manipulate this fiber to create different pieces, such as the one that you're looking at. All of my pieces are completely made out of fike. So everything that you're looking at is fike.

And some pieces are copper and silver. But what I really love to work with and my main symbol of my art is fiki. And this is... It's kind of a fibre for sure and kind of a hairy material. Yeah, kind of like... But hair that has been brushed

into beautiful shape hanging behind you as I look at it. But this is Woman's Hour and I do understand that women in the community where this plant has great significance are crucial to processing it. Tell me a little bit because I know you want to elevate the traditions of your ancestors. Yes and that are my values of my art. I really believe in art with a purpose, environmental and social purpose.

So that were my values when I started my career as an artist. I studied visual art, but that was super important for me. So the women, of course, are super important in the process of this plant. Men are the ones who cultivate the plant, but the women are the ones who process the plant and brush, many hours of brushing, like many, many hours of brushing. So what do they have to do? The plant, it's like the agave plant I read. Exactly. So that has to be chopped down, brought in, then what do the women do so they chop the leaf and with a machine so they take out the

leaf they they they brought they they put the leaf in a machine and then they take the fiber and that fiber is kind of rough and and greenish so the woman start working in that moment and they put it in the sun, they hang it in the sun and with the sun, the fiber goes and like a natural color which is the natural color that you're looking at and the woman started brushing and painting the the fiber so you can have different colors, all kind of colors and I work with natural colors which is important for me and the women also do with this fiber rugs, artisanal things, different things for their homes and they sell them of course so the women are the ones who craft with this fiber. So interesting and I know

sustainability is really important to you theigue plant has been called a sustainable plant. And you're also thinking about climate change and trying to combat it. And I'm wondering, because we've often spoken about the impact that climate change can have on women and children and their families, what you're hearing from the women that you are interacting with when it comes to the environment, what are they seeing? What are some of the challenges? For me, it is super important to work with these communities. And we have like a direct communication with the community that I work with, that I worked with a community in Curitiba and in Aranzazu, two places in Colombia, of course. The woman, the lifestyle of the people here is not super bad, but of course it's not that good. So what I'm trying to do,

like to add a little bit to this conversation is so they can have like a better lifestyle, of course, a better lifestyle with their work. And I'm approaching this thing with that, like giving them more work and more possibilities so they can have a better education for their kids, better place to live. Yeah, I understand. Let me speak with you also for a couple of minutes about some of the women that influenced you. I believe your grandmother and your mother and your mother's identical twin, like you felt you had almost two mothers growing up. What was their influence? It was super important my grandmother was the one who first introduced me to art so I started with a very early age to paint and to do different things and when I started to grow up my mother and my twin mother were the ones who support me and not only emotional but like emotional in all of my process, because it's been a kind of a hard process through my life.

So they've been there all of the time, my mother more emotionally and my aunt a little bit of creatively. So they have been there for me for all of this process. And it's been really nice to be along this woman that I really love very much and helping me do beautiful things and support me in all kinds of ways.

So that's your immediate family. Of course, the country, Colombia, it has had a violent past. And you at times want to reflect that in your work. Has that been difficult or challenging? I'm sure there's lots of people that probably don't want a reminder of a violent past. Exactly. And it's important because I think that it's important to put Colombia in a positive conversation.

And I'm trying to do my part, of course, my small part. But it's nice to speak about the beautiful things that Colombia has, biodiversity, nature, creative people, amazing and intelligent people. So that's what I'm trying to do. And this really nice opportunity, like being here, exposing my art, talking about Colombia and these small regions in Colombia, and showing how beautiful our, like, as a country can we be. So it is important to change the conversation of a violent country to a positive and biodiverse country that we can do many and beautiful things. Alejandra, Aristibal, thank you so much.

Aristebal. Aristebal, who is joining me from Bogota in Colombia, who works on the Fiki plant, a sustainable plant from South America, native to there. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. I want to let you know that tomorrow we'll be hearing from Jolie Burley, CEO of

Pregnant Then Screwed. That is the charity she founded for mothers experiencing discrimination during pregnancy. She's stepping down after 10 years of campaigning. Also, we'll be looking at how different groups of women are likely to vote in the upcoming US presidential election and why. That is coming up

tomorrow at 10. And lots of people of course showing love for Anna Maxwell-Martin. Wonderful interview. Anna explains her problems with such depth and understanding. She is uplifting. I'll see you same time, same place tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Join us again next time. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Danny. It's been too long, but I am back and I wanted to let you know about something very special that is going to be happening on the Uncanny podcast feed this October. As we all know, this is the month of Halloween, that most ghostly time of year.

And to celebrate, I am going to be doing a Halloween advent calendar. Every single day during October, I will be dropping a brand new mini case into the Uncanny Feed. Each one under two minutes long. A tiny bite-sized nugget of terror. An email from a listener recounting an experience they believe may have been paranormal. But is it?

There will also be video versions of the stories on all of my social media channels. The episodes will land every single morning. 31 stories in all, leading all the way up to Halloween. And there might just be some special Halloween surprises to come too. So that is the uncanny Halloween advent calendar on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. Join me if you dare.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.