Woman's Hour - Isabelle Huppert, NHS Whistleblower line, The Kill List, author Cecelia Ahern

Episode Date: October 16, 2024

French actress Isabelle Huppert is renowned for her portrayal of dark, complex characters. She's also been hailed by many as one of the greatest actors of modern cinema. Since the 1970, she's starred in more than 120 films, including The Lacemaker, The Piano Teacher, and Elle for which she was Oscar nominated. She joins Nuala to discuss her latest role in a new comedic film The Crime is Mine, directed by François Ozon.From today NHS staff in England will be able to whisteblow on colleagues for sexual harassment, as part of plans to improve safety for staff across the health service. Almost three-quarters (74%) of NHS England staff are female and in this year's NHS Staff Survey, almost 58,000 staff said they'd been the victim of assault, touching, sexualised or inappropriate conversation or jokes from their colleagues. To discuss the plans Nuala speaks to reporter, Melanie Abbott and Dr Chelcie Jewitt co-founder of Surviving in Scrubs set up to raise awareness of the sexist and misogynistic culture within health care.New podcast The Kill List follows a group of journalists who discovered a page on the dark web detailing requests to have people killed, with women most likely to be the ones targetted. The investigation led to a major international police operation over four years and, at the heart of it are the real people whose lives were seemingly at huge risk. Nuala is joined by the programme's producer Caroline Thornham and Jennifer whose former husband posted a 'hit' for her on this website. Cecelia Ahern is the bestselling author of an incredible twenty books. She first found success at a remarkably young age. She was only 21 when her novel PS I Love You became an international bestseller and then a Hollywood film. She tells Nuala McGovern how Celtic mythology and a return to nature inspired her latest novel.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Nuala McGovern, and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. Well, today, the legendary French actor Isabelle Hubert speaks to me about her latest film, The Crime Is Mine, but also on why she doesn't feel the need to rehearse before filming. That's coming up. We also have Cecilia Herr in this hour on her new book, her 20th. It's called Into the Storm and it's a gripping tale with a backdrop that

includes her protagonist, Enya struggling as she approaches the age her mother was when she died. Enya was just a girl at the time. Now many of you may have experienced or will experience this. A time when those who lost a parent too early in life arrive

at the age that their parent was when they died. Reaching your parents' death age, as it has been called, can be profound, it can be liberating, it can be a catalyst for change. If you'd like to share your story on how reaching that number or age or how it has impacted you or maybe you're thinking about it if it's in the future,

you can text the programme. That number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. Also, I've been listening to a fascinating podcast, Kill List, and it tells the story of uncovering websites that offer hit men for hire. We'll hear from Jennifer, one of the women that was targeted on such a site, and also the producer of Kill List, Caroline Thornham,

all coming up. But let me begin, because from today, NHS staff in England will be able to anonymously whistleblow on colleagues for sexual harassment. This is part of plans to improve safety for staff across the health service. Almost three quarters, 74% of NHS England staff are female. And in this year's NHS staff survey,

one in 26 staff says they had been the victim of assault. So touching, sexualised or inappropriate conversations or jokes from their colleagues. Even more have experienced issues from patients and also the general public. The NHS chief executive, that's Amanda Pritchard, she has said she hopes that any member of staff who experiences sexual abuse will feel they can speak up and should have every confidence that they'll be listened to, supported and also that appropriate action will be taken. Our reporter Melanie Abbott has been taking a look at the proposed changes. Welcome. Yes, that's right. Yeah, announced just this morning, this new initiative, the NHS says it is the first ever policy of its kind. And it should

mean that staff have no hesitation in coming forward with these kinds of issues. And they will be able, as you mentioned, to do this anonymously. Now there has been campaigning to tackle this in a much better way for quite some time. The last NHS survey showed that 58,000 NHS workers reported being the victim of unwanted behaviour of a sexual nature. Now some of that is coming from the general public but just under 4% of those said it came from a work colleague. So it's within the workplace. And this does come on the back of a new legal duty on employers to prevent sexual harassment in the workplace. And that came into force earlier this month. So that's been an extra impetus, obviously. So the new part of it?

Yeah, lots of new initiatives, the anonymous form that's going to be specially created that people can fill in, that's the whistleblowing element, if you like. New guidance for how to investigate complaints. They should be done in a formalised manner across the board, across all of the NHS trusts. It's going to have a specialist review group for every trust, which will have access to experts and independent investigators. There'll be a detailed set of steps to follow to make sure that everyone's doing it in a uniform way and this will also ensure that the right support is offered to those who are making the complaints and that will include special leave if that's deemed to be necessary. They're also introducing

freedom to speak up guardians within staff and there'll be people who get special training so you could go to them in the first instance and it's really being deemed as being quite important because hospital trusts are being asked to give senior level oversight to this policy and the executive board is going to be responsible for monitoring data on sexual misconduct. So it's all going to have a very close eye on it, much closer than it ever has in the past. Now, NHS England says that it recognises women are much more likely to be affected by harmful sexual behaviour and says that this is just a first step to stopping it, but it does mark a serious commitment, it says, to stamping it out.

So really quite some ambitions there. The NHS Chief Executive Amanda Pritchard says she strongly encourages every NHS leader to look at how they're going to adopt these measures right from today, from day one. I should say it has been welcomed as a step forward by the Royal College of Surgeons, which added that it will be doing its part. It will be implementing a robust new code of conduct and trying to improve its own reporting and regulatory processes. Melanie Abbott, thank you very much.

Well, to discuss more, I'm joined by Dr. Chelsea Dewitt, who is the co-founder of Surviving in Scrubs. This was set up to raise awareness of sexist and misogynistic cultures within healthcare. Doctor, welcome to the programme. Your initial response to this announcement that Melanie was outlining? Good morning and thank you for having me. So our initial response to this work from NHS England is a positive one.

We're really excited to see where this policy, this guidance is going to lead. The fact that NHS England is committing to taking the experiences of survivors of these behaviours seriously and doing something about it is a fantastic first step. We're just wanting to see how this is going to develop, what kind of monitoring is going to be put in place to ensure that these policies, these procedures work and they hold perpetrators to account. But is it the sort of steps and framework that you were looking for?

Absolutely. We've been working very closely alongside NHS England. We've been consulted on quite a few of the changes that they've implemented. So we're overall very happy. You've talked about a culture of tolerance for these behaviours and attitudes within the NHS previously. What evidence was there for that? There's several reports now that show that sexism, misogyny, sexual harassment and sexual assault have been an issue within healthcare for a really long time. Both looking at the BMA report in 2021 that I was a really big part in, showing that 91% of female doctors have experienced sexism. You've also got the Breaking Silence report that the Royal College of Surgeons have done showing

that 30% of female surgeons have been sexually assaulted at work. But also looking at our website, so survivingscrubs.co.uk, you've got 230 anonymous testimonies there from people who work all over the NHS. So not just doctors, because most of the data out there at the minute is very doctor and very surgeon centric. This also affects paramedics, nurses, any allied health professional and people who work in even in the office side of things with NHS as well. So we know anecdotally and looking at facts and figures that this is a huge, huge problem. So as I said before, just really happy that this commitment from NHS England has been made. Do you think people will take it up? I mean, it's interesting because you do have all those stories on your website that people have been contributing.

And I'm wondering, do you think people will fill out that form, be confident in the fact that it's anonymous? I think providing more options for survivors, for victims, targets of these behaviours is only a good thing. There definitely needs to be more work in building up the trust of that reporting system but i'd hope to see that as time goes by and more changes get made there's review of systems and implementation of changes that more and more trust um will come in so hopefully more anonymous reports will um come in through this. But also, I'd hope that it'd have a knock-on effect to anonymous reports increasing as well. And this is interesting because it's talking about colleagues

and we talked about some of the figures there. But I suppose for staff that are within healthcare, there is within the workplace in the sense of from other colleagues, but there's also from the public that staff have been abused in that way. What about that aspect of it? That is really difficult. We campaign for the interprofessional. Yes, I know, colleagues basically. Yeah, colleagues basically. But you are right, We campaign for the interprofessional. Yes, I know. Colleagues, basically.

Yeah, colleagues, basically. But you are right. This does happen from patients as well. NHS England says that it has a zero tolerance policy on that. But there are confounding factors. It is difficult to kind of have these types of policies implemented regarding patients. But I would hope that if the interprofessional element is taken seriously and these codes and practices are put in that that

would also hopefully have a bit of a knock-on effect towards um patients abusing staff as well um there is also plans to bring in more pastoral support that Melanie mentioned there and even potentially special leave for people who have suffered sexual misconduct at work. Is that something that you've heard people want? We've heard definitely that people need more support with going through these processes, whether it's a formal or informal complaint. Just having experienced sexual misconduct where you work is awful. It's really traumatising. It leads to feelings of shame, humiliation, questioning one's want to continue in that career. And actually, we know that people need support. And that is something that we've been campaigning for really strongly as an organisation.

Do you feel the lid has been lifted? Do you feel that people think they will be listened to now if they bring it up? I mean, has the culture changed, I suppose, is what I'm asking. I think the culture is changing. I don't think it's fixed and I think this is a really long journey ahead of us. But things over the past three, we need to see what happens in the months and years to come. Dr. Chelsea Dewitt, the co-founder of Surviving in Scrubs, thanks so much for speaking to us

on Woman's Hour. Now to the French actress Isabelle Hubert. She is renowned for her portrayal of dark, complex characters. She's widely regarded as one of the finest actors of her generation. Since the 70s, she's starred in over 120 films, mostly in leading roles. Some of them include The Lacemaker, The Piano Teacher and Elle. She was Oscar nominated for that.

She's now in a new comedy. It is this totally charming film called The Crime Is Mine. It's directed by François Ozan. It's set in 1930s Paris. You'll hear more about that in a minute. But the film centres on a young, struggling actress accused of murdering a famous, lecherous producer.

Assisted by her lawyer roommate, she's catapulted then into a world of fame and wealth and tabloid celebrity. But her newfound fortune is complicated by the arrival of an older, once famous actress, played by Isabelle. I asked Isabelle Hubert what attracted her

to the film. I first read it knowing that François was going to do it, François Ozone, and that was my second film with François because I did Eight Women before. So I read it with this perspective. But having said that, I thought it was hilarious, smart,

as always when he does something. And I love my character, very funny, very extreme, very nasty, very greedy. I loved her. So it's Odette Chaumet. Odette Chaumet, yes. She's a star from the silent film. And I suppose with her, she kind of makes this grand entrance

kind of halfway through the film, but nothing is the same after she arrives. She's a diva, I think. Would that be a fair way of describing her? Yeah, she's a diva and she was a diva and she's still a diva. And she, of course, wants to be still a diva. That's why she's so greedy after getting roles and, of course, getting roles much younger than she is. But in a way, that's what's interesting about her, that at the end, she might be against the young girls. But in the end,

finally, they are all caught in the same cause and in the same complicity, which is, of course, very rewarding. I love the relationship. So there's a younger actress that is in it, and they're at odds over a particular aspect, kind of trying to outdo one another, but they do come together. I suppose it's kind of a study of women and ageing and theatre. Oh, yes. Yes, but in a very funny way,

not a very serious statement. It's more, I think, what François Raison does in all his films, and that's what he did already in Eight Women, he manages to take a very old material really rooted in a certain time

and then he manages to up-bring it to a more contemporary period of time and to bring some, you know, feminine subjects and to, and in the end it becomes something very in the favor of women. But women don't want to be victims. Women want to be fighters to the extreme of even being a killer. They don't care, but they want to

be the queen of the situation, to get what they deserve and what they want. Very dynamic characters. The film is based on a 1930s play, but I also feel like Paris has a role. What's it like to do a film that is set in 1930s Paris? Well, to be honest, we shot the movie in Belgium. It's a wonderful, huge house in Belgium and a little bit of it in Paris. Yes, absolutely. But most of it was shot in Belgium. But of course, yes, it's this period of time where you get beautiful dresses, beautiful hair and makeup.

He also addresses themes that are very relevant from today, even though I mentioned it's based in the 1930s. There's sexual exploitation, also themes of justice, female empowerment that we've touched upon as well. But when you look at it, are you seeing how it can resonate parts of it to today? Oh, yes, of course. Otherwise, it wouldn't be really worthwhile without, you know, trying to make it resonate

in a more contemporary way. It would be just an old-fashioned piece of work. It's not very interesting. But all of that in a very, very light and funny way. Nothing is really loaded and heavy. No, exactly.

It's kind of a light touch, as we would say, going through it. But bringing up some of the issues, I mean, when we see the French film industry, for example, it's been under the spotlight this year after a number of women made allegations of sexual assault and harassment against directors and actors.

And the French Parliament then decided to create a commission of inquiry to investigate sexual and gender-based violence in film and also other cultural sectors. Do you have hope for that commission? Well, I think that certain things needed to be put in light. And of course, it's good. Things had to be said. And it's always good news when women's rights are defended anyway, no matter what.

Having said that, you can't take individual cases and spread it to the whole world of moviemaking, of course. They're all particular cases. All particular cases but I suppose we have seen the movements in various countries to various levels of Me Too and I'm wondering was there a huge impact in France of that movement as you

see it? Yes of course but I don't think it, I think it impacts the way you do films it doesn't impact the content of the film which is different. So explain that to me a little bit further. Well, it might make people more cautious about, you know, things are being made.

But the content of the film is, I hope, still as free as possible. I said that there's no restrictions within the art, so to speak. That's right. But that working conditions are better. Yes, absolutely. You have worked on so many films, theatre. We could continue talking about so much of your work. But you were, of course, very popular as well in the Netflix series, Call My Agent.

You were playing a version of yourself. That was also incredibly charming. Yes, it was funny, but I largely contributed to the exaggeration of my character because that's the principle of the series. You take what people think you are actually and accentuate it even more. But part of the character was that you were a workaholic. But at the moment, you do have The Traveller's Need showing at the London Film Festival. And of course, we're talking about The Crime is Mine. Is there some truth to that aspect of being a workaholic? Not really, because it took me a week, you know, to do A Traveller's Need with Hong Sung-soo,

wonderful and great, great, great Korean director. And he's known for doing movies in very little time. So, yeah, we shot in 13 days. So it didn't take six months of my life. And it was a very short amount of days also for me to do so. So you say no to the term workaholic? Yes, definitely say no, because it's not too much. It's just also for me to do so. So you say no to the term workaholic? Yes, definitely say no because it's not too much. It's just normal for me.

But let us talk about you as an actor because many people talk about, you know, the lengths they go to to embody the role, perhaps staying in character all the time. I read that you said once that you don't do that extensive preparation. You read the script, you close it, you do the film. Is that true?

Yes, it is true. Of course, you do a little bit of preparation with the costumes and hair and makeup and all these indications to the spectator. I think, you know, there is nothing that you can really anticipate. Movie making is really about the present time, the present moment, and only when you do it, you know exactly what you do. So yes, some people believe in rehearsals, and why not? Rehearsals might have their virtues sometimes, of course. I'm very flexible. I don't really care.

If someone wants to rehearse and to speak a lot about the characters, I'm fine. As long as I am concerned, I don't really need it. I'm fascinated with this, Isabelle. Hang on a second. No rehearsals? Well, in France,

we don't rehearse much, actually. Well, I don't know about England because I've never made movies in England. But let's say in America, yes. In France, we do script and then we do it I'm interested in it even from my perspective in broadcasting because I sometimes feel if you

rehearse you can lose the dynamic aspect of the actual broadcast if that makes sense yeah sure it does and it's the same for the film but again I don't think there is any rule if it is left to, I don't think there is any rule. If it is left to myself,

I don't need anything else to just to think about it. It has a lot to do with thinking. So it's not very tiring. You say you are not a workaholic. I am taking you at your word. That is the right amount of work for you. But do you relax time out? Is there something that you love to do when you're not working?

I like to watch movies in movie theatres. This is my favourite occupation. When I think of a few hours ahead of me and what shall I do, and just to see a film, it's, well, that's, I guess, the reason why I do films and it's also the reason why I love watching them. A good spectator as much as an actress. It is interesting that you like to go to the cinema. So many people are streaming at home instead, for example.

I do know your son runs an art house cinema in Paris. Yes, two movie theatres in Paris. Two movie theatres. And I'm wondering how you see that, you know, and perhaps from information from your son as well on people's viewing habits and, I don't know, changing with the times, how cinemas stay relevant.

Well, that's why we make films. If you can't do otherwise, it's always nice to know that ultimately you can watch the films on television or a big screen in your house or on a mobile phone, which is, of course, not the best destiny you can wish to a film, to end up on your mobile phone.

But they are closing down cinemas. You know, I suppose tastes of people have changed. Well, I think we are very privileged in Paris. It remains a wonderful city to watch films. You can watch new films, old films all over the city still. It's really great. What do you hope that people get from this film, The Crime is Mine? I think they will get two hours of pure entertainment

and meantime underneath a little thinking about what women are capable of doing, which is always good to remember and to remind to anyone. Isabelle Huppert there. I loved it. The Crime is Mine. Really fun escapism

for a couple of hours. It's released in cinemas on... I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now. Friday. Now, you might know that two titans of film and Woman's Hour guests came together in Mrs. Harris Goes to Paris. Yes, Isabelle Huppert. But she was starring alongside Leslie Manville. And what exceptional acting careers they are having. Leslie is currently in the West End. She's with Mark Strong in Richard Icke's version of Oedipus.

Not only that, she's also currently in a film and cinemas. She has two TV series on the go, one on Apple TV and another coming to the BBC next month. I spoke to Leslie yesterday and she told me she is loving having for getting up in the mornings. I'm working with an amazing actress called June Watson, who is 89. And she plays Merope in Oedipus. She doesn't stop. And she wants to keep working. Do you think you'll continue working just for as long? Completely. As the interesting roles continue to come? Absolutely 100% yes. And I can understand why when I watch you on stage as well. But, you know, you're 16 when you started as you talk about that. What do you think has been the biggest change for women who are acting in that time? I think I can feel now that there's a real interest in telling the stories of older women.

And it wasn't like that when I was 16. It wasn't like that when I was in my 30s even. What changed? Women shouting louder, complaining more. I mean, it is extraordinary when I think of even going back to the relatively recent female history of the suffragettes. And of course, women were trying to make noises way before that. But when you think of that movement and the commitment of those women in that movement, it was awe inspiring. But sometimes I think of that time, that movement and think, really, we're still we're still not being heard.

We're still struggling to have a voice. We're still being sidelined or potentially sidelined. So it's different because we've carried on banging on and shouting and making ourselves be heard. The actress Leslie Manville speaking to me yesterday. You can see a little snippet of that interview on the BBC Women's Hour socials, at BBC Women's Hour on Instagram, for example. Oedipus continues on the Wyndham Theatre. That's until January.

And you can listen back, of course, to the full interview audio-wise on BBC Sounds. It's Tuesday, the 15 back of course to the full interview audio wise on BBC Sounds it's Tuesday the 15th of October to find it some of your messages coming in we talked about the death age you know reaching that age

of when your parent died particularly if you were young when that happened here is one from Helen my mother died at 48 when I was 22 I was certain

I would also die at that age and I think it made me impulsive and take risks and behave erratically. I didn't die. I'm 58 now and I feel I have a second life and I don't regret most of my reckless actions. 84844 if you would like to get in touch.

You might think there is a podcast for everything these days. In a busy field, it can be hard to know which ones are worth your time. Well, the podcast I'm about to talk about has certainly impressed a lot of people. It's shot its way up to the top of the podcast charts. It's called Kill List and follows the story of a group of journalists who stumbled across a page on the dark web detailing requests to have people killed. 175 requests to be exact,

with women most likely to be the ones targeted. They found evidence of monetary transactions adding up to significant amounts of money. So this podcast follows their investigation over four years. It also involves a major international police operation. And at the heart of it, there are real people whose lives were seemingly at huge risk.

So to understand more, I spoke to the programme's producer, that's Caroline Thornham, and also to Jennifer, whose former husband posted a hit for her on that website. Caroline, excuse me, began by explaining what Kill List is.

This whole story began for us back in 2020, when alongside the presenter, Carl Miller, our team were making a podcast about the dark web. And in the process of that, with the help of a hacker called Chris Montero, we gained access to the back end of a site that claimed to be a hitman for hire site. So people placing orders on the internet to harm other people. And we could see the names, the addresses, all of the details that people were putting in about their intended targets and all of the payments they were placing too. And the thing that's a little bit complicated about this is that the website itself is actually a scam. So there weren't any real hitmen. They were just taking people's payments and cashing in the money.

But the thing that was really concerning to us and that was such a shock really was the fact that the people who are paying the money and who are naming someone on this website to be potentially murdered really do have very genuine intent to do that person harm. In one case in America, they actually went on and did harm to that person themselves. So we were basically placed in this situation where we had this information, you know, about people that we thought were really genuinely in danger. And that's what we termed the kill list. And we spent the next several years basically trying to get that to the attention of law enforcement and anyone who could do something to try and keep those victims safe.

You talk about the dark web, Caroline, but what is that exactly? Can you describe it? The dark web is basically a part of the internet that you can't access via regular search engines like Google. You have to go on a specific browser that makes it much harder for people to track where you are, your IP address, all of the identifying markers that you would normally have when you're accessing the internet. And so as a result, it's become this place where criminal activity really flourishes

of all different kinds, all sorts of scams and kind of quite grim stuff on there. And these pretend hitman for hire websites are one of those things. What were people requesting of the hitmen for hire? People were really kind of horrifically imaginative, you know, in all the ways that they were writing on this site and detailing how they wanted someone to be hurt. And so we would see orders coming in that firstly had loads of personal details in, right? People's names, you know, addresses, social media profiles, everything that a hitman would need.

And then instructions of, you know, for example, how they wanted somebody to be killed, you know, where they should target them, you know, the times of day when they were likely to be alone. And so it's a really disturbing set of things to be confronted with because it was just so apparent from these messages just how serious a lot of the people writing them were about hurting them. And did you know when you came across this site that it was a scam immediately? It became very clear to us as we were reading the message correspondence that was coming into the site because we began to see a pattern very rapidly where people who were placing hit orders would come back to the site with complaints essentially saying you know this service that

they're expecting hasn't been delivered nobody's been hurt and the site with complaints, essentially saying, you know, this service that they're expecting hasn't been delivered, nobody's been hurt. And the site administrators would make up all kinds of excuses, you know, say, oh, you know, the hitman got lost, or, you know, they weren't able to do it on this or that day for whatever reason. And they'd always be trying to upsell them to, you know, say, if you pay another $10,000, we'll put somebody more experienced on the job. And in all the cases that we were looking at, eventually, you know, the customer gives up and resigns themselves to the fact that this hasn't happened. So from that perspective, we were pretty clear that, okay, you know, there are no hit men here. There were no hit men prepared to carry out

these deeds, but the intent was real of the people who were posting them, from what you could see? Absolutely. You know, people were paying really significant sums of money in some cases, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars in Bitcoin. And the messages that they were writing as well were really disturbing to read, you know, often very, very detailed descriptions of exactly what they wanted to have happen to the person. And this thing that really kind of gave us just so much kind of fear in this is the fact that prior to our investigation back in 2016, from the same website, there was a case in the United States where a man had gone on the website, tried to place an order to kill his wife. And then when that hadn't been delivered, he went on to kill her himself.

And so we knew, you know, immediately, as soon as we heard about that, that these people were dangerous. And, you know, in some cases, there might be nothing they would stop at to hurt the person. We talk about a hit man for hire, but who was posting? Was it generally men asking men to carry out crimes like these? We've come to the end of our investigation and we've seen a large number of arrests and we have an idea of who the perpetrators are. Some of the statistics that have come out of that are really interesting and quite shocking too.

So for people placing the orders, in the cases where we've had arrests and where we know who the people are, that's about 31 cases around the world, 58% of the perpetrators are men and 58% of the targets are women. So it's more men being the perpetrators and more women being the victims. But the statistic that I think

is kind of the most striking really is that when a man is placing the order on the Hitman for Haya site, in 78% of those cases, the target is a woman. And in 85% of those cases, it's involving male to female intimate partner violence. So it's a man targeting his wife or his ex-girlfriend. And I think that's a real indictment of, you know, the kind of level of gendered violence in our society. And it was quite shocking to find that in this dark web world, it was really reflective of that. Let me turn to Jennifer, who's able to join us now. Thank you for being able to come on Woman's Hour, Jennifer. You were listed as a target on this website by your ex-husband. And I'm sure this is something

that is very difficult to speak about. Your ex-husband, he was a man called Ron. He was still your husband when this request that he put forward was posted onto the dark web.

As I was listening to the podcast, Jennifer, I realised it was Caroline and her team that told you that this request to harm you was on the dark web. And I can't imagine receiving that call. What do you remember about it? Well, I remember my co-worker had actually called me and told me that a reporter needed to talk to me ASAP because I was in danger. And when they told me about it,

I was not surprised. My intuition told me that something was going on and he was trying to do something. I just wasn't quite sure what it was. But when they described the detail of the messages, it was pretty upsetting. It was a lot more, I don't even have a word for it. Yeah, it was a lot more than what I thought it would be. What I will say, and we won't go into too much detail, but it was quite graphic with specifics on where he wanted you taken and what he wanted done to you. I found it chilling listening to it. You say you weren't surprised that he was intending to do you harm. But can you believe this was posted on the dark web?

Yeah, it was interesting. I didn't even know what the dark web really was. I was calling it the black web for a while and was corrected by somebody. And I was like, I thought it was a site that people went on to buy illegal drugs or something like that. I didn't realize there was actually hitman sites. And I figured, you know, I figured it was a scam. I kind of knew that he was on the dark web because his mistress at the time had let me know. So I was kind of on an alert. She was scared of him as well. So it was kind of a situation where I was kind of stuck and nothing could happen until something, you know, came out of it, I guess. Until Caroline and her team then played a key role in bringing Ron to justice. And if people are wondering why Jennifer was having conversations with the mistress, they'll have to listen to the podcast to learn more.

Caroline, back to you. What happened? So our team were monitoring the Hitman for Hire site and we saw these messages come through from an account calling themselves Scar215 that turned out later on to be wrong. And we were really shocked because not only were these incredibly distressing messages, there were also payments and the largest payments we'd ever seen on the site, tens of thousands of dollars and including things like bonuses to have, things happen faster by a certain deadline. And so it was immediately clear to us that this was a really, really serious threat. And so that's at the point at which we reached out and tried to make contact with her and then also to get it to law enforcement as well so they could act on the information.

This became a global operation involving police forces across the world. What did you find that process like? In general, across this investigation, it was a real struggle to begin with. We often struggled to have law enforcement take us seriously. We had some cases where we went to the police with a victim and we could literally hear the police officers laughing because it sounded so far-fetched.

And one of the first things we did when we broke into the site was call the Metropolitan Police to try and hand this information over. And, you know, they did take the information, but passed it on to Interpol, which is an international policing body, because they kind of decided there weren't any UK cases, it wasn't their problem. And then we had this real issue because there was such a disjoint between where the information had gone and us, we couldn't give them any updates. We had no idea whether it problem and then we had this this real issue because there was such a disjoint between where the information had gone and us we couldn't give them any updates we had no idea whether it was being investigated properly and so it was a real journey over the course of our investigation to to find law enforcement officers who were willing to to look into this properly and deeply and

jennifer's case was actually a real turning point for us because through reporting this, we ended up starting to work with the FBI. And that was a complete game changer for our investigation. They really, really looked into it at a much deeper level than anyone we've worked with before. What do you think was the difference though? Was it law enforcement catching up with technology? I think part of it comes down to resources. So something that was really eye-opening for me over the course of this investigation is just how ill-equipped, you know, the most average police forces are to deal with complex cybercrime. You know, it's across borders, it's often involving complicated technology that you need specialist skills to understand. And so,

you know, you go up to the average police station and they're going to really struggle potentially to look into something like this. Whereas a larger organisation like the FBI have much more understanding of how these kinds of things work and have the resources to look into it. But I would also say it was a bit of, you know, attrition at that point, because we had a track record of a few cases that had started to have arrests. And so once you can point to things and say, the information that we have really does show a dangerous threat, there are prosecutions that are underway in other countries, you can get people to believe you and take it seriously much more quickly. How many cases were there that were brought to justice?

Over the course of a few years of investigation, we handed over 175 cases to law enforcement all around the world. And as of right now, there have been 34 arrests and I believe 28 convictions. And so, you know, there are many more that are still working their way through the justice system. But it's interesting, you're this little podcast team that are investigating, and this is what you found. And I'm just thinking, when you think of the expanse of the dark web, do you think it can be policed? I think we're going to have to, you know, start to look into these things more closely. And I think the thing that was shocking to me was not, you know, perhaps that people had already, you know, maybe we're the first people to stumble upon this, right? But you would hope that

if we're coming to the police and giving them this information and saying, look, you know, there's real genuine threats to life here, that it wouldn't take us two years before anyone else in law enforcement, you know, would be willing to actually take over our investigation properly and proactively investigate it. I'm sure it's a big, complicated world and it's constantly changing. So I understand the struggles that law enforcement face. But at the same time, we were shouting for help, being like, please, somebody, anyone, take this off us. We're journalists, we're not police.

Jennifer, back to Ron. Ron was brought to justice. Did that change your life in any way? Oh, yes, for for sure it changed my life completely he's still behind bars yes yes he is why did you want to speak out I feel like if it were to help anybody you know that's my main purpose I think is is I don't think people understand the whole realm of domestic violence, especially mostly with women. I mean, I know there are men that get, you know, that go through it as

well. It's, it's not just physical. It's not just somebody, you know, beating on you. I mean, it's intimidation and threats and, and control. And I went through quite a bit over a few years. And I'm glad that it all came out. I didn't think it would come out like this, you know, like a national story and all over the news. But it's just it validated so much that I went through. And I just feel like if I could help somebody else that might be going through something similar, you know, that's worth it to me. What about for you, Caroline? What do you hope this podcast will do? I'm hoping that the podcast can start a wider conversation about, you know, a few things. Firstly, some of the yawning chasms, you know, in our system's ability to deal with serious crimes that happen online

and then secondly um you know this question of of gendered violence was something that that ran all the way through our investigation i think what the story of this investigation and this website shows is some of the ways that that is is kind of shifting online as our lives become more and more integrated with technology of course you know there's men using this hitman site to target their former girlfriends you know their their wives in several of the cases that we cover that involves that you know the men had also been using other forms of technology you know to to control or surveil you you know, or harass women in their lives, things like exercise apps, things like trackers, you know. And I think as we all live in, you know, more and more smart homes,

we should really be aware of this issue that's kind of a growing problem in our society of technology-enabled abuse. Refuge, the domestic violence charity, started monitoring it in 2018, and they saw a 258% rise in cases of domestic abuse involving technology since then. So although the Hitman website is on the extreme end of things, I think it speaks to a much larger problem too. Kill List from Wondery and Novel is available on most podcast platforms and if you have been affected by anything you heard in that interview or indeed on this programme

you can find support on the BBC Actionline website your messages continue to come in about reaching a death age so an age where your parent had died at when you were young here is one for example when my father died at the age of 65, I was 20 and I thought he had a good innings. But now I'm 66 and living a very full and active life

with lots of plans for the future. I realise how wrong I was. Catherine also got in touch. My mum died unexpectedly of an asthma attack at the age of 49. As I approached my 50th birthday a few years ago, I realised I was almost holding my breath. It was subconsciously preying on my mind. So reaching 50 felt like a gift. I didn't know what post-50 looked like, but there was definitely a sense of release and desire to make the most of every moment.

That's from Catherine. Thanks very much, Catherine. Let me turn to Cecilia Hearn. She is the best-selling author of an incredible 20 books. She first found success at a remarkably young age, at 21, when her novel P.S. I Love You became an international best-seller. It also was a Hollywood

film, you might remember that. Since then she's written a new novel every year many of them huge hits and has also created the TV series Samantha Who and Roar. Her latest book is Into the Storm and it tells the story of Dr Enya Pickering, a GP who saves the life of a teenage boy after a hit and run accident, but whose own life, Enya's, starts to unravel. Cecilia Hearn joins us on the line now from

Salford. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Good to have you. So I've given a short synopsis of your book and I'm going to avoid any spoilers. But can you tell us a little bit more of what to expect? Because I was thinking reading it, this is a thriller kind of from Cecilia. But I think you would disagree with that characterisation from what I've been reading. Well, you know, many people have said it has a thriller feel, which I'm quite excited about because I haven't jumped genre. But it is. It does have a thriller kind of pacey feel, which is exciting. You explained it very well. It is about Dr. Enya Pickering.

She's driving through the Dublin Mountains on a very stormy night when she's waved down by a taxi driver who's found a teenage boy on the road. And she gets out of the car. she performs life-saving CPR, and she saves the life of the boy. But as a result, her life completely splinters as she's drawn into this hit-and-run investigation. So that's kind of the backdrop

of the story that's going on. As you were talking about with your listeners, she's also reaching this horrible term, the death age, where she is reaching 47, which is the age her mother was

when she passed away. So she's already on shaky ground. She cannot quite see herself living beyond that age. Her mother, she felt, even though she died when Enya was 12, was always her leader. And she's been following in her path. And she suddenly feels like her ground is starting to fall away from her and cannot see her life beyond 47. So she's in a storm. She's in a storm in every which way. And the cover of the book kind of has a tree and the leaves blowing off it, particularly on one side. Because a tree figures deeply in this book.

There's a lot of Celtic folk mythology and various imagery, but a rag tree, which maybe people have not heard of. Do you want to tell our listeners what that is? Yeah, so a rag tree was considered in pre-Christian times, particularly in Irish pagan times.

It's usually a hawthorn tree and it was considered to have healing and cleansing powers. If it was near a holy site, a holy well, fed by the water of a holy well, it was considered it could heal people. So what people used to do is they would take the fabric of people that they loved who were ill and they would tie it around the limbs of the tree. And as that would rot away, so too hopefully with the ailment of the people that they love. And people would tie fabric or ribbons or they would leave trinkets by the tree and it was actually I was taking a walk in Dublin's Botanic Gardens and my baby was two weeks old I was not expecting to be any way inspired on this walk and I saw this hawthorn tree and suddenly I just saw stories you know

I got so inspired by looking at this tree that was kind of weighted down by people's wishes and prayers and hopes and dreams and I just thought it was such a beautiful sight and I knew immediately that I wanted to write a story about a tree. I suppose it's all really hope right that tree but what it symbolizes you are going to read a little bit for us, so I'm going to sit back and let you take over, Cecilia. With my beautiful husky voice at the moment, I apologise. Not at all, go for it.

Enya sees a green minibus with Celtic pagan tours emblazoned on the side and a group of ten walking across her grass to the rag tree. She plans on going into the kitchen and lowering the blinds so that they know they're not welcome, but instead she hangs back. She watches them. They wrap pieces of clothing as emblems around the limbs of the tree, close their eyes and say prayers. Some recite quietly, others look up to where a stunning display of starlings has filled the grey sky. The aerial dance has been happening for a few days in a row, where tens of thousands of starlings fly and swoop together in unison, creating captivating shapes in the sky. It is spectacular timing to witness this moment while on a pilgrimage tour at a sacred tree. While everybody stops what they're doing at the tree to look up and take in the bird show,

one woman wanders around the tree, studying and touching each of the pieces of material as though she's in a museum. Her fingers fall upon the yellow baby grow and Enya tenses, feeling protective. She doesn't want her to touch it. It reminds her of when she was a young mother with baby Finn. She hated people holding him, lifting him from her arms when he was content. Perhaps she's beginning to form a connection to the tree after all. And so we are kind of brought into, I suppose, really Ireland of a time past. But pagan and folk mythology is such a big part of the book as well. Why did you decide to delve into all of that? Well, I think I took the rag tree really as my mood board. Okay. When I saw it, it was about healing, about cleansing, about forgiveness.

And it had this kind of mood that I wanted to introduce into the story. And it was very much about, it was about, you know, paganism. And when I was younger, I used to think it was very dark and druids and scary and and it's actually such a beautiful thing like people really worshipped nature and the emergence of light and the feast and the festivals were you know celebrating like the earth you know and the ground and and our harvest and and light appearing and and I just thought it was such a lovely thing that I think we're we're moving back to so I and I certainly am in my life so I read yeah yeah I mean I'm fascinated by I love going foraging with my mom and she makes all kinds of things um that haven't worked in my throat today but yeah I just think

it's a really beautiful way that people are kind of trying to reground themselves and get back to themselves get back to nature um with in all the madness of the world yeah and maybe that is something also that has sprung out of the pandemic i will also say the book is broken down into certain celebratory days that there is within pagan mythology or an irish calendar really from um you know we're talking about hundreds, thousands of years before, which is so interesting to go back to. What foraging have you been doing exactly? Well, always with a group because I'm not too certain myself, but I love mushroom foraging and then, you know, herbs and my mum is studying herbal healings, which is so interesting. So trying to just get back to, I suppose, eating food that hasn't been messed with.

But a couple of months ago, I did something very interesting. I went on a spoon carving day out. And it was just so kind of going back to basics. A bunch of women sat around a fire and we did all the things we were told not to, like held axes and chopped down trees and then carved spoons. So do you know what? I recommend it.

It's a really lovely way to grind yourself in nature and reconnect with yourself. I do love the idea of the mushrooms. I'm always, though, a little bit tentative. I learned about chanterelles and false chanterelles, which you probably have as well. So we always need an expert not too far away. But coming back to Enya, we talked about her approaching middle age and

celebrating that birthday that her mother never got beyond. I just wanted to read a message that came in. My time for reflection was when my daughter turned 13, the same age I was at the time of my mother's death. And I realised how young I was and it made me think about what I had missed by losing my mother and how I had to navigate my way through life without a mother. I think that kind of sums up a little bit of Enya. Yeah, I mean, I think some things can happen, which is that people can lead up to the age feeling incredibly anxious. And then when they reach the age they feel freedom after that or the opposite

people can feel totally free before that and then reach the age and feel very anxious during that year and after like they're frozen because there's no leader I think

and then some people are not affected at all nicely but it is but Enya is going through a very kind of deeply complex time where she's discovering

she has not dealt with the grief of her mother at 12 years old and it's just coming back to her now like a storm on that very stormy night because her mother had a heart attack and drowned and and she kind of links that stormy night with the night her mother drowned. Also that character she is a mother but she has difficulties bonding with her son, which is kind of unusual, I think, sometimes to read about. Son seems to find it much easier to be with her husband. What brought you to that? Yeah, again, the tree. In mothership, motherhood was such a huge part, you know, the power of the mother and the older woman and the knowledge that they have. And yet she's she's trying to communicate with her mother who has passed away

and yet she's feeling like she's failing with her own son she's trying to reconnect or she tries to reach out to the mother of the boy that she found on the road and whose life she saved so it's very much a celebration of all the different types of motherhood the mother she's lost, the mother she wants to be and the mother she's lost the mother she wants to be and the mother she's reaching out to in her grief um and i just felt that that was such a powerful subject um and such a powerful thing during during celtic times you know women were so celebrated and um and it was such a a wonderful thing to be a mother and to be fertile at this time.

So that was all in the themes of the book. And it is rare, as you say. She has to move away. She leaves her husband. She moves away to try and become a better mother. And which is, you know, there's that unlikable word. How could she do that? Do you know what?

My next question to you was like, she's not the most likable character. But you know what? We'll have to get people to read to find out how does her character develop. Just before I let you go, people may or may not be aware that your father, of course, was the Taoiseach of Ireland. You were just 15 at that stage. Bertie Hearn is your father. I wonder, because you go through that time as a teenager, you're probably not even really taking it in. But I'm wondering now as a woman in your 40s looking back, can you believe like lived through I saw you went to the White House for example you know and everything that came with

your father leading a country. Oh yeah I mean it was I definitely appreciated it all at the time but as you say as an older woman have like have such I think I'd love to relive it all now and have different conversations with the people I met. But it was an amazing experience just to be expected, really, to watch that all happen and to meet the people I met. And now I'm all for it. I'm listening to everything he does

and understanding it far more better, you know, far better as an older person. Yeah, really interesting. Well, congratulations on your 20th book. Yeah, really interesting. Well, congratulations on your 20th book and of course, Aurora coming out and Nicole Kidman involved.

More to talk about when that one does arrive. But Into the Storm by Cecilia Hearn is out now. Thank you so much for joining us. Join Anita tomorrow.

She will be looking at whether the women's Super League football clubs are overlooking female English coaches. Also, she's going to be speaking to the Italian author. Now, that's Maddalena Valliotanet. It's about the family story that has haunted her

since she was 10 years old. She has turned it into a novel. One more message. Not reached my father's death age yet, but seeing my children reach the age I was when I lost him, 15, has brought up some really profound emotions, I am sure. Thanks very much for listening to Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.