Woman's Hour - Israel-Gaza ceasefire, Donald Trump's inauguration, Runner Elise Downing

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

After 15 months of devastating conflict, a ceasefire agreement has been reached between Israel and Hamas, and three female hostages – Romi Gonen, Emily Damari, and Doron Steinbrecher - have been released and are now back in Israel. This release is the first of several expected over the next six weeks, with a total of 33 hostages to be returned. Ninety Palestinian prisoners were released overnight in exchange for the hostages, the Israeli prison service has said - most of them women and teenage boys. The UN estimates that 1.9 million people in Gaza have been internally displaced since the start of the most recent conflict, some 90% of the population. The humanitarian situation remains critical, with widespread destruction and significant damage to infrastructure including hosptials and severe shortages of food, fuel, medicine, and shelter. Datshiane Navanayagam speaks to BBC Chief Correspondent Lyce Doucet. We also hear from Ghada Al-Kourd in Deir al-Balah in the centre of the Gaza strip, and Sharone Lifschitz, whose parents were taken hostage by Hamas in October 2023.Geneticists from Trinity College Dublin and archaeologists from Bournemouth University have found evidence of female political and social empowerment during Britain’s Iron Age. DNA sampled from a burial site in Dorset shows that two-thirds of the women were closely related, suggesting that women lived in the same communities and passed on their land and wealth to their daughters, while unrelated men tended to join the community from elsewhere. This type of social structure, known as “matrilocality” is the first documented instance in European pre-history and challenges the assumption that most societies were patrilocal. Dr Lara Cassidy, an Assistant Professor of Genetics at Trinity College Dublin who led the research, discusses the findings. President-elect Donald Trump will be inaugurated today in Washington D.C. It is of course his second term, having previously served as the 45th US president, he will now also become the 47th. So what will a second Trump presidency mean for women, both in the US and around the world? Datshiane is joined by Jennifer Ewing from Republicans Overseas and the BBC’s Holly Honderich to discuss.Elise Downing is known for running 5,000 miles self-supported around the British coast over the course of 10 months. She was not only the youngest person, but also the only female to have completed the challenge. Along the way she saw Britain at its wild and wonderful best. She has now written Walk Britain, packed with inspiring car-free ideas on how to get out and explore stunning locations – from the Cornish coast to the Yorkshire Dales and the Isle of Arran.  She joins Datshiane to talk about some of the 90 different routes across that can be completed on foot, all accessible by public transport.Presented by Datshiane Navanayagam Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, I'm Dashiani Navanayagam and welcome to Women's Hour on BBC Radio 4. Good morning and a very warm welcome to Women's Hour today. I hope you found a good weekend. It is, of course, another Monday, but not just any Monday. In just a few hours, Donald Trump will be inaugurated as the President of the United States of America again. That will make him the 45th and now 47th President of the USA. So, what does President Trump the sequel mean for women living in the US and also around the world? We'll be discussing that shortly.

And with a new incoming President, also a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas. Yesterday, the first three hostages released were three women. Their names, Romy Gonen, Emily Damari and Oran Steinbrecher. In total, 33 Israeli hostages will be released in return for 1,900 Palestinian prisoners, including women and children as part of the ceasefire. We'll bring you the latest on this and we'll be talking to the daughter of one father who is still being held and hearing from women in Gaza on what life is like in these first few hours since the ceasefire. Also we'll hear from the geneticist leading new

research that's uncovered evidence of female empowerment in Britain during the, wait for it, during the Iron Age and And we'll be speaking to a woman who's come up with 90 different routes to access some of Britain's most beautiful but remote places, all without a car. Music to my ears. So if you don't drive, don't want to drive, don't like driving, but you do want tips on getting off the beaten track, then she is definitely the woman to be listening to. And also this morning, I want to talk to you about clothes. Hear me out. A survey's found Britons are hoarding 23 billion pounds of unworn clothes. Why? Well, mostly to save us outfits to be worn one day or someday, and also because of emotional attachment. Now, is that you? I'll admit something. It was me.

I don't even buy many clothes, but I have such weirdly specific memories attached to them. Well, anyway, a few years ago, I was brutal. I live in a tiny flat. I had too many. And so I got rid of many, many of my clothes that I never wear anymore. Sent them all to the charity shop. And then what did I do? A few days later, I went and I bought them back. I just couldn't do it. I couldn't stand the separation. Now, please don't ask me if I've worn them since.

I'm too embarrassed to answer that question. But what about you? Are you saving most of your outfits for a mythical point in the future? Or do you wear all of your clothes? Are you a minimalist? Some honesty here, please. Well, do tell me your thoughts, your opinions. You can get in touch in all the usual ways. The text number is 84844.

You can email me through the Woman's Hour website or WhatsApp me or send me a voice note on 03700 100 444. Or if you prefer social media, then we're on at BBC Woman's Hour. Lots of ways to get in touch. Now, after a last minute delay yesterday, a ceasefire agreement has been reached between Israel and Hamas. It's after 15 months of devastating conflict and brutal loss of life. The current conflict started when hundreds of fighters with Hamas, prescribed as a terrorist group by the UK government, stormed across Israel's southern border on the 7th of October 2023, killing around 1,200 people and taking more than 250 hostages back to Gaza. Israel responded with a military campaign, starting with an immediate air bombardment and then a full-scale ground invasion. Since then, Israel has attacked targets across Gaza by land, sea and air,

while Hamas has attacked Israel with rockets. Then came yesterday. A ceasefire agreed, and three women, Romy Gonen, Emily Damari and Doron Steinbrecher, were released and are now back in Israel. This release is the first of several expected over the next six weeks, with a total of 33 hostages to be returned. 90 Palestinian prisoners were released overnight, the Israeli prison service has said, and most of them are women and teenage boys. For families in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, there is still great concern that the fragile ceasefire could collapse over the next six weeks. The UN estimates that 1.9 million people in Gaza have been internally

displaced, that's some 90% of the population. And the humanitarian situation remains critical, with widespread destruction and significant damage to infrastructure, including hospitals and severe shortages of food, fuel, medicine and shelter. Well, Lise Doucette, the BBC's chief international correspondent, can join us now from Riyadh. Lise, a very warm welcome again to Women's Hour. Very good to join you. Yesterday, we saw the three female hostages released by Hamas to the Red Cross in Gaza City. They're now back in Israeli territory. Can you tell us a little bit more about who they are? Oh, I'm sure if any of your listeners saw the images

yesterday of three young women, Emily, Doran, Romy, falling into the arms of their mothers, it was really interesting that they said, okay, only one member of the family can go to the border. And it's the mothers who will be the first to receive them. And then there were the images when the women arrived at the hospital, the Sheba medical facility, and they opened a door not knowing what lay behind. And there were the other family members and really Israel felt it was Israel there were so many emotional comments Israelis were watching them on big screens talking about they we feel that these young women are members of of our own families and were there also uh the image we didn't get as much live coverage because there weren't uh there wasn't the access in the same way. But eventually we did also get the equally poignant images of young women, of men, young men being released from Palestinian, from Israeli prisons,

and joyful reunions. And it's for this reason that the first phase of a very complicated and a very fragile deal, a ceasefire deal and a hostage and prisoner release, is called the humanitarian phase because it's a very human part of it in this very in Israel, who want this war to resume as soon as possible, those on the far right, have said that they support this part of the deal because it has brought so much happiness and rare hope after what have been 15 months of absolute misery and pain on a scale that we have never seen in a region that has seen all too much of pain and violence. You're very right. There were some hugely moving pictures from both sides of families being reunited.

And in particular, we saw those images of Emily Damari reunited with her mother. In just a few moments, we are going to be talking to Sharon Lifshitz, whose father was taken hostage. Lisa, can you tell us us what do we know about the rest of the hostages? Well, this has been, this is an aspect of this, this war that has deepened the pain for families, because they're now said to be, well, now there's 94 hostages that are believed to be still in Gaza. About a third of them are, it's fairly certain that they are no longer alive. But for those who are living, there's been no proof of life, no contact with their families,

no contact with the International Committee of the Red Cross, which has a special responsibility for prisoners. They're the keepers of the Geneva Conventions, which are the rules of war. And the only time families find out is these horrible videos that the Hamas fighters put out occasionally for propaganda reasons. And even though they are terrible to watch, it at least informs some families that their loved ones are still alive. So when the women emerged, many commented on how they seemed, they were smiling, they seemed energetic. They've been putting messages on Instagram and on social media today.

But doctors have been saying it's not what's on the outside, it's what's inside. We don't know what kind of ordeal they went through in the last 15 months. We believe they were held underground, perhaps in solitary confinement. Obviously, being held hostage is the worst of circumstances. And yesterday wasn't the time for, there was the minister, the Israeli minister of health was asked whether he had a moment to speak to the girls. Did he know anything? And he said, no, this is not the moment.

This is a very, even though the families, such as the nature of this crisis, that it was such an intimate, personal moment. But the families knew and in some way they wanted to share this good news with the world. But now that they have, the priority now is for the girls get used to what Emily Damari said. I want to return to my wonderful life, even though life will never be the same. They're now former hostages. But the priority now is they're going to start today the comprehensive medical tests. And they'll have both physical as well as mental examination. And some of them will choose to speak and some of them will remain silent. And, you know, you'll hear shortly because Sharon's mother was she decided she came out and she decided to speak because they wanted to speak for the rest of the hostages.

They wanted to send messages to the world, most of all, the importance of that all the hostages should come home. But sadly, all of the hostages and more Palestinian prisoners won't come home unless this deal sticks. And there's going to be many people who will try to make it stick. But there are many people who will want it to become unstuck, sadly. And what about Israel's release of the Palestinian prisoners in exchange? We know 90 were released overnight. Many of these are women and a number of children. Do we know anything of them? Well, we didn't have, they did give us a list. One of them was a woman, Halida Jarar,

who's known as a very strong critic of the Israeli occupation. She had been inside for many months and she came out. She was looking very, very tired, but there was emotional embraces as well. Some of the other prisoners who released played a senior role in some of the militant organizations. Some of them had long prison terms and were convicted of killing Israelis. But a large number of the prisoners who were released yesterday and are set to be released in further stages of this process, if it goes according to plan, are held under what's called administrative detention. There's much criticism by lawyers, both Palestinian as well as Israeli and international lawyers, that they're held on not a lot of evidence, they're never charged, and some of the people who come out under these rules of administrative detention

go into prison and come out without ever having been charged, without ever really knowing what the evidence is against them. And so Palestinians become very bitter at it, saying that their conditions, they also have stories of mistreatment in Israeli prisons. So on both sides, you know, everyone in this war, it's a very, very polarizing situation. People are very emotional about the pain on their side. But it's not a question of numbers and it's not a question of sides. These are human individuals caught up in very political situations and sadly, very brutal situations. It might seem like an obvious question to ask, but it's worth asking.

Why is it women who've been released first, both Israeli and Palestinian prisoners? Well, this is another tragic side. Human beings should never be bargaining chips in war. They should never be part of a human trade. But that is what it's come down to. It's not just Hamas, which is a prescribed terrorist organization, which does it. We live in a time where Russia, China, Iran, people do get picked up and held to be traded for something that

another country wants. And in this case, when Hamas fighters went on the rampage across southern Israel into kibbutzes and towns on that Saturday morning at dawn, a day that Israelis to a person will say, the scars are still there. It changed the country forever. So many people were seized, soldiers as well as civilians, even an infant baby, the Bebas boy, who just marked his second birthday in detention. He spent all of his life in captivity. If he's alive, and there's hope he is, that he will be released as well. But it's a trade. And so under the terms of the trade, Hamas regards the soldiers as having a higher price. So the young male soldiers are being kept for the second phase. In this first phase, it's the women, the children, and the elderly men.

And, you know, it's horrible to say, but for every Israeli woman, every Israeli civilian who's released, there will be 30 Palestinian prisoners. And for every female Israeli soldier, there will be 50 Palestinian prisoners. And, you know, many people ask, well, how do they come up with those numbers? We don't know. It's part of the negotiation process. Years ago, when one Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, was released, a thousand Palestinian prisoners were released in exchange. And Israelis don't forget that among those thousand Palestinian prisoners was a man named Yahya Sinwar, who then came out, returned to Gaza, rose within the ranks of Hamas and is regarded as having been the mastermind of the October 7th attacks. And now he's dead. He was

killed in an Israeli operation in the Gaza Strip. So a very emotional day, a day with a lot of happiness, was also a day of recrimination and bitterness as well, sadly. And Lisa, I want to talk to Sharon in just a few moments, but just tell us, what is the humanitarian situation like in Gaza at the moment? Are we seeing more humanitarian aid now flowing in? That's what hopefully will be another very, very important and very human side of this political security deal, that under the deal, 600 trucks are meant to go into Gaza every day. Before the war, the United Nations says 500 trucks went in a day, and that's commercial as well as aid trucks, to keep people alive, to feed people, to clothe them, medicine, whatever everyone needs. The UN says that of late, only 25 trucks a day were going in, even though the UN says 98% of Gaza's more than 2 million people are now facing acute hunger.

Some parts of the Gaza Strip are described by the scientific organizations as being in famine-like condition. The war in Gaza, we have used this word from the very beginning, has been unprecedented in every way. Every veteran aid official who has gone into Gaza has said, I expected it to be bad, but I have never, ever seen a war like this. And when the United Nations Children's Fund, UNICEF, calls it a war on children. UN figures say that a child is killed every 30 minutes. They say every day, 10 children are losing one or both of their legs. Gaza is now said to be home to the largest number of amputee children in modern history. Israel says it only targets terrorist installations. It accuses Hamas of hiding weapons, hiding its fighters inside hospitals and schools. But there has been a

lot of criticism by international legal experts saying that even in war, there are rules and the civilian, the consequences, the human catastrophe of Gaza now has been, according to all of the international legal humanitarian officials, is beyond compare. So if the trucks are flowing and Israel says it is committed to allowing the trucks to go in, it accuses the UN of not actually properly delivering them. The UN says, well, that's because we're under so many restrictions. But the situation before the ceasefire deal was described as near total siege, particularly in the north of Gaza. So the trucks started moving across the border yesterday.

I spoke to the senior humanitarian coordinator, Sigrid Kog, yesterday. She said the situation was fragile. They were worried about it, but they were hopeful that they could start making a difference in people's lives. As Gazans, for the first time, there was a small truce in November. They're finally able to return to what's left of their homes. Large parts of the Gaza Strip, more than 60%, according to the satellite imagery in the UN, is now just rubble. So bittersweet. They return to their homes with happiness, but end up in floods of tears because

nothing is left. Lise, thank you very much. That was Lise Doucette, the BBC's chief international correspondent. We can now hear from Garda Al-Khawd in the centre of the Gaza Strip, speaking to the Today programme earlier. Well, this is the first day of the ceasefire here in Gaza Strip. We can see people, they are moving around night and out evening, and they can be seen like they are relieved, going back, going to the market. They want to buy their essentials. This is the moment that كما لو أنهم في مرحلة يذهبون إلى المارك يريدون أن يبيعوا أسلوبهم

هذا هو الوقت الذي كانوا ينتظرونه أطفال وفتاة وفتاة وفتاة يسيرون بدون سماع الهواتف الإسرائيلية بدون

تشعور بأنهم ستكونون مهارة هذا الشعور ننتظره منذ 15 أشهر without feeling that they will be targeted. This feeling, we've been waiting for 15 months now. I'm in Deir el-Balhan, Al-Aqsa hospital yard. It's calm, like the yard, it has some displaced people. Just people, they are around looking for some food. Some children, they are playing in the yard. There is some kind of calmness here now, quietness.

There is no Israeli war plans in the sky. Even the drones, they are not in the sky anymore now. And it was like a mixed feeling this moment that finally, maybe next week, I'll be able to go to return to north. And finally, I can see my daughters. I can search for my brother and his wife and his daughter. I can search for my father, but I can find where they are. I thank my God, at least that I am alive. My daughters are alive. I can see my daughters again. And now I can speak to someone with a very personal connection to today's news,

Sharon Lifshitz, whose parents were taken hostage by Hamas in October 2023. Sharon's mother, Yotavet, was also a hostage and released in October 2023. But Sharon's 84-year-old father, Oded, has been held in captivity all this time. Sharon, thank you very much for joining us on Women's Hour. I know these are very difficult, very difficult circumstances. You've been waiting for so long. You've had 15 months of living with anxiety and uncertainty. Firstly, how are you?

I'm okay. We have got so used since the 7th of October for the mix of joy and absolute horror and pain. And seeing Emily and Doron and Romy yesterday, and in particular Emily, whose mother was part of our campaign, the heart of it here in the UK, is a pure joy. So there's much more heartache to come, but these little moments where a family is reunited makes it, you know, it's wonderful. I can imagine that the last 24 hours in particular, so many emotions, so many thoughts.

I understand you were in touch with Emily's family. Yeah, we are part of the close British link, and Emily has been at the heart of it. We know Mandy, and we've been on campaign with her and, you know, went to Doha together. She's a little bit ours too. And have you had a chance to speak to Mandy? There was some exchange of texts.

I think it's really important to give space for her. But she was already this morning saying she's going to come back and fight until everybody are back. I think this is something I saw all the families doing, or many of the families, just feeling until they're all back and this episode is completed and finished and there is a ceasefire, then we're not stopping. And when we say until they're all back, your father, your darling dad, is still there, when was the last time that you heard news of him?

With the return of the hostages in November 23. We know that two hostages saw him on the first day and then he was in a room with another hostage for the first weeks. So we know he was alive, we know he was injured and we know that his situation wasn't very good. Tell me a little bit about your father, Oded, because he's not just a hostage. He is so much more than that. What is he like as a person?

He's somebody who kind of taught us to look reality in the face. He saw a lot in his life. He was a journalist. He was in Rwanda. He was in Lebanon in the war. He saw human suffering. He fought for really good gardener of Kakhti. He has a garden for 65 years and maybe above all he's a family man. He really is very missed. He's very much at the heart of... My parents had an open house. Anybody could come anytime. There was always food available. They will cook. They will look after you. Everybody felt at home in my parents' house. And yeah. And how is your mum? She's 86. How is she coping? She's feisty. I was just talking to her on the phone and she was telling me about a conversation with a taxi driver this morning where she said, absolutely, I care about the children and I care about both sides and I am first and foremost a human. And she's very, she's an inspiration.

She's fearless and she's full of humanity. Tell us a little bit about what she is like to you. I know you said they had an open house, but we know your dad is a wonderful gardener of cat tea. Tell us a bit about your mother because they sound like incredible people they had a little you know they had the house in the middle of um in in in the kibbutz on the edge of the kibbutz from their home they could see Gaza they could see the village across the fields. They always had a full house family. A few years ago, I asked my mom, she was 82 something, and I said, how many people are coming for lunches? And she counted and said 35. Just to say she doesn't have help. It's her and my dad. Well, that is a full house. Yes. And like my aunt says, they had a small house in which it felt the walls could expand to accommodate any amount of people. They really loved people.

And they really, you know, my father fought for what he believed. He was very opinionated. He continued to write even after he retired from newspapers. He had a very human-based outlook on life, but not naive in any way. And he's really, he's very missed by so many people. What's the first thing you want to say to your dad when you see him? Well, that I love him, that I missed him, that he's, that I'm sorry we couldn't get to him quicker. I think it's a huge failure. And, you know, you can't undo the time that has gone. Yeah, that, you know, what he stands for holds true.

Sharon, thank you very much for coming into Women's Hour. We wish you all the best. And thank you as well to Garda Alcord in Gaza and earlier to Lise Doucette. We will continue to follow the impact on women and children on both sides here on Women's Hour. And for the latest on this rapidly moving story, and it is moving rapidly, please do go to the BBC News website. Now before we move on to our next topic here is a quick message from Anita. Hello everybody it's a new year and some of you may have some new routines in 2025 or even some new listening habits so I thought I'd take the opportunity to remind you about Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds,

the online home of BBC Radio and podcasts. If you download the BBC Sounds app on your phone, not only can you listen to Woman's Hour live anywhere you like, you can also catch up with any episode you might have missed. Just search for Woman's Hour in the app and all our episodes will appear. You can even browse and find fun interviews from our archive like Helena Bonham Carter explaining why she thinks ageing is a dirty word.

Or find bonus episodes about some of our most popular features like Forever Friends when friendships go wrong. There is so much more of Woman's Hour to explore on the BBC Sounds app, so why not download it today and don't forget to subscribe to Woman's Hour and discover a whole new side of our programme. I'm Sarah Trelevan and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Now, a newly published study has uncovered evidence of female social and political empowerment during Britain's Iron Age. DNA sampled from a burial site in Dorset reveals that generations of women lived in the same communities and they passed on their land and wealth to their daughters, whilst it was the men who tended to join the community from elsewhere, likely through marriage. Now, Dr Lara Cassidy, an assistant professor of genetics at Trinity College Dublin and the lead researcher, is with us this morning to discuss the findings and how the study provides broader insights into the role of women in prehistoric Britain. Dr Lara, welcome to Women's Hour. Thanks for having me on.

So you worked with archaeologists from Bournemouth University who unearthed this burial site in Dorset. Firstly, what was your role and what exactly did you find? So I'm a geneticist, I'm not an archaeologist, I don't get to work in the field, we kind of sit alone in the lab. This has been a site that's been excavated for about 15 years. There's been many, many amazing discoveries by the staff and students at Bournemouth. For us, when we kind of came on board, they had uncovered cemeteries that contained unburnt human remains. And that is quite a rare thing to actually find in Iron Age Britain. These large cemeteries of unburnt burials usually at the time funerary

practices are quite diverse across the country but people are cremating, they're excarnating, they're leaving remains out in the landscape. So the researchers at Bournemouth, they were quite excited to see how these people buried at the site were related to one another, how they related to other populations in Britain and the continent at the time. And that's when the collaboration started between us and Bournemouth. We agreed to do DNA analysis for them and we were so excited to do this it's a amazing opportunity to actually start to look at the kind of composition of an Iron Age community in terms of who's related to who the relationships the kinship and the family structures. How easy was it for you to examine the DNA because as I say it's Iron Age it's 2,000 years old how you know

was it in were they in fantastic condition yeah um i'd love to tell you it was really difficult and my job was really hard it wasn't it was actually the preservation was fantastic um i think it's something to do with the chalk uh geology there but um we were able to successfully get analyzable DNA out of every single burial we sampled. Sometimes, you know, we tend to target the petrous temporal bone, which surrounds the inner ear. It's one of the densest bones in the body. Great for DNA. But even when we were sampling elements that aren't so good for DNA, say finger and hand bones, they worked really well. So that was brilliant because, do you know, this type of study, when you're really trying to like look into kind of family structure, every community member is really important. And I'd say some of your listeners who

do say genealogy on their own family will know that if there's a missing link in your family tree, it can be hard to piece the thing together. You don't want those gaps. So we were really happy to be able to sample all of the burials that had been uncovered. So what was the biggest surprise when you analysed the DNA? So, well, it was the cemetery of an extended kin group. We found lots of genetic relatedness but close and distant uh relations buried there um what took me aback what when it popped up on the screen was how these family members were related to one another specifically um we saw that the majority of them were related through the female line right from mother to her mother to her mother. So we had these sort of unbroken lines

of female transmission through the generations. We did not see the opposite as absent, sort of unbroken lines of male transmission. Instead, what it's looking like is that it's the men who are entering the community at each generation, and then they're also leaving. So it's husbands coming in and sons going off. So this is a matri-local society. That type of residence pattern, yeah, is called matri-locality where women stay put and at marriage the men come and they join their wives' families. The opposite is patrilocality where the women leave.

And patrilocality is the most commonly observed system we know in modern society, sort of anthropological studies from the past few centuries. But, you know, that might have always been the case. Matrilocality is relatively rare today, but it's still about, you know, 10% of traditional societies we see it in. When did this social structure change then, if this was in existence 2,000 years ago? Do you mean when did Britain lose nationality? I don't want to blame the Romans.

We don't know. I'm sure the Roman conquest had a big impact on uh british women on the social structures legal systems of the island um you later have christianity things like that so one thing to note about human cultures human residence patterns is they are quite fluid they're they're ever changing do you know um no society is stuck in one particular customer way across millennia. It's fascinating stuff, Lara. Thank you very much for joining us on Woman's Hour. That was Dr. Lara Cassidy, assistant professor of genetics at Trinity College Dublin,

on how British women 2,000 years ago had many more rights than we first believed. Now, President-elect Donald Trump will be inaugurated today in Washington, D.C. It is, of course, his second term. Having previously served as the 45th U.S. President, he will now also become the 47th. At a campaign rally last October, Trump stated that he would protect women, and I quote, whether the women like it or not. So what will a second Trump presidency mean for women both in the US and around the world? I'll speak to Jennifer Ewing from Republicans Overseas shortly. But first, I'm joined by the BBC's Holly Hondrick from Washington. Holly, welcome to Women's Hour. Hi, good morning. So there was a march held on Saturday. Now this

was going to be the annual Women's March, but it changed to become the People's March. What was going on there? Yeah, so it's been, as you said, eight years since the first march happened, which was a real watershed moment. It saw the birth of what became known as the Resistance, which was this anti-Trump coalition of Democratic politicians. You had Republican anti-Trump politicians and grassroots progressive groups.

But with time, I think even organizers would acknowledge the visibility of the resistance and the impact of the resistance has kind of faded. And I think the effort to rebrand is an effort to expand the movement and try to pull people back in in the face of Trump's reelection. So the march was not only rebranded, it was actually sort of co-led by the Women's March organization, but also several other organizations across a wide variety of issues. We had civil rights groups, we had environmental groups, abortion groups all coming together to show their opposition to Trump. Well, let's hear some of the chanting from the march on Saturday.

Well, Holly, we heard there that some women were chanting My Choice, and I think there were some pink pussy hats on display as well. But it is a lot fewer, you know, there's a lot less women compared to 2017. Oh, much, much fewer. So organisers had told me they expected about 50,000 people. I believe about 5,000 turned up. So there were people there, right? 5,000 is not a tiny number. People did fly in, they did travel. Don't want to diminish that. But last,

the first time rather, 500,000 people were estimated to have come to the Women's March, about three times more than the people who had come to Trump's inauguration just the day before. It's a massive number, and I think really difficult to match that. And people who were there, I think, were enthusiastic, were happy to be there to show that they are coming together to oppose Trump. But I think as well, the fewer numbers shows a real sense of fatigue that he is in fact coming back to the White House. So, I mean, that's a drastically, drastically reduced number. And some of the leaders of the previous women's marches weren't even there either. I believe you spoke to one. Did she tell you why she didn't attend this one?

Yes, I spoke to Vanessa Rubel, one of the handful of feminist organizers who first came together and really impressively pulled this march together in about two months, two days. They didn't know each other. Some of them had no experience doing something like this and then did, as you said, this massive movement that bears little resemblance to the march we had on Saturday. So Vanessa herself left the march soon after they had the first event. There was a lot of internal dispute. So she left quite early, I should say that. And part of her sort of being detached from it is Vanessa herself. She now lives in the West Coast. She's become rather detached from active organizing. But I still think her sentiment applies to a wider group of people who oppose Trump. They're tired, right? Lots of people I spoke to who are still actively organizing said, I didn't even know this march was happening.

As I said, there's feelings of exhaustion, resignation, and I think defeat, right? If the first march was really to come together, so Trump couldn't, you know, implement his agenda and Trump could never come back again. Well, he's back. So I think there's this sense of we tried this, it didn't work. Should we bother doing it again? Some people would say that it's only right that it was a greatly reduced Women's March, People's March now, because it was women who put Trump in the White House again. Yeah, I don't know if that's completely fair because Trump won across such a wide coalition, right? I should say black women, Jewish women, Latina women all supported Harris, Kamala Harris, Trump's opponent, the current vice president for a couple more hours now. But, you know, by wide margins and women overall did support Harris, Trump's opponent, the current vice president for a couple more hours now, but you know, by wide margins, and women overall did support Harris over Trump. It's white women

who for the third time in a row supported Trump over his Democratic opponent. And if you look at the data even closer, it's non-college educated women, evangelist Christian women who again came out for Trump. So I think he did win on support of women, but I certainly wouldn't put it on women alone that put Trump back in the White House. And the women who do support Trump, you know, presumably they are looking forward to this next term. What do they think it will bring for them? Obviously, you know, women have a wide variety of interesting concerns. So to speak in broad terms, I'll just give myself that caveat. So I think among the social conservatives, the evangelists, evangelicals in this country, they think Trump represents their values. Right. So concerns they might have about trans rights, about abortion, for example, I think they believe he's the right person for them in terms of value alignment. And there'd be concern that a Democratic candidate would do what they would call extreme

things in office with regards to social policy. But I think for this, you know, group that he really expanded on the non-college educated white women, I think it'd be similar to what a non-college educated man would tell you that they think Trump will make their lives easier, right? A lot of Americans feel like life's been too hard lately. Inflation's caused, you know, really difficult sort of cost of living crises across the country. And they think when Trump gets in, he's going to make their grocery bill a little bit less. He's going to make their rent a little bit less and just make life a little bit easier for them. Holly, thank you very much. I'd like to bring in Jennifer Ewing of Republicans Overseas.

Jennifer, a very warm welcome to Women's Hour. You're joining me in the studio. Tell us, what do you believe or hope President Trump will do for women in this second term? Sure. So I think this is going to be a completely different term than we saw in 2016 for the main reason being, I don't think he really thought he was going to win then.

So he wasn't very organized. He took a lot of very bad advice as far as who he surrounded himself with. And as a result, there was a lot of turnover. This time, he's had four years to plan, say, since the 2020 election. He's listened to people. As Holly just pointed out, his coalition is a lot broader this time. He broke records with regards to Hispanic voters, with black male voters, and the biggest outlier that a lot of people have forgotten are the youth voters, the 18 to 29. He did very, very well for a Republican in that

category. So I think women, you know, are looking at him for the issues that affect their lives. The number one two issues that most people voted on that voted for him were the economy and inflation. Indeed, you know, gas prices and groceries. And then the second one was the crisis we have at the southern border, which of course, affects women in, I won't say greater, in greater effect than it does men. But you know, you've heard the tragic cases of Lake and Riley, where there's a bill on the floor now that's going to pass, you know, a young University of Virginia student, excuse me, University of Georgia student who was killed by an illegal immigrant. So there's a women are a lot of the times the victims of the crime that takes place in America. And so I think that what women are looking for is just their lives were better,

quite frankly, under Trump. If somebody were to ask you that old Ronald Reagan question, was your life better off four years ago than it is today. Resoundingly, the American people, and indeed women were part of that, said, yes, it was, you know, better off four years ago than it was today. Hence the reason he won. Well, as we heard there, you know, he did increase his share of women's votes, particularly young women. Just as a woman, what is it about Donald Trump as president that resonates with you personally? Sure. Number one thing, I think he's authentic.

You know, while I can, I'll be the first to say he's a deeply flawed character. We all are. We're human beings. But what you see is what you get. Does he exaggerate sometimes? Yes. Does he speak in bombastic ways? Absolutely. But I think he's a patriot. I think he wants to, you know, put forth his populist America first policies, which is what the voters are looking for him to do. This will be a much different Republican party than than you saw in 2016. We saw that in the lead up to the election,

you know, there's a lot less of the social conservatism and a little bit more of, hey, let's talk about jobs. Let's talk about, you know, bringing manufacturing back to the United States. And indeed, let's getting our cities cleaned up so we do not have to ask somebody to use a key to unhook something at the drugstore so we can buy toothpaste. So I think you're going to see a lot of safety issues, which are concerns for mothers and jobs. OK, but let's talk about the women now who aren't excited about a Trump presidency because there are many of them. Let's talk about abortion. In his first term, Donald Trump appointed three conservative judges to the Supreme Court. We then saw in 2022, you had Roe v. Wade overturned. And since then, 17 states have outlawed nearly all abortions, you know, banning the procedure at six weeks

of pregnancy before most women even know that they are pregnant. Should women who do want reproductive rights be worried about a second Trump presidency in your view? No, they should not. And first of all, that whole fear, which was one of the Democrats, first Biden and then Harris, big sort of policy issues. We didn't get a lot of policy out of them, but we definitely got abortion. It wasn't effective for women because women vote on other issues. But as far as people who are worried, one thing I'd point out is for the first time in 40 years, if you look at the GOP.com platform or maybe GOP.gov, there is no national ban on abortion recommended. That's for the first time in 40 years.

I'd also add into that for the first time in 40 years, they no longer talk about marriage being strictly between a man and a woman. Those are more progressive issues. There is no national ban, but in many states it's highly restrictive. It's very, very hard to get an abortion. Sure. So as a small state conservative, I would say that, you know, 50 years ago or whatever, you know, abortion is not a constitutional right. It was something that happened in 72 versus the famous Roe versus Wade. What these judges have done is said, hey, this is not our business to

dictate what women do with their bodies. We're giving it back to the states. And that's one of the beautiful things about the United States is, you know, if you don't like what's going on in California, move to Texas. If you don't like what's going on in Alabama, move to New York. That isn't always possible for women to move. And obviously, you know, handing it over to the state is still allowing somebody else to dictate what a woman does with her body, some people would say. But let me know.

The voters decide, right? So it's not the state deciding. And a lot of these states that you mentioned, votes are taking place. And to be honest, the majority of these states, even very, very conservative states, said, we want to have some form of we want to have some form of abortion availability. I believe the most popular view in America right now is pro choice with limits, which looks around 12 to 15 weeks, which, you know, by the way, is something that the UK and Europe are looking at. So when, you know, people say, oh, the US has turned into the handmaidens tale. I'd invite everybody to look at the laws in which they're living under in Europe and the UK. Let's, let's, I mean, abortion is an issue with strong feelings on all sides, of course,

and it's not a binary choice. Women do stand along the whole kind of spectrum of abortion. But I want to talk to you about sexual assault. In 2023, a jury found Donald Trump liable in a civil trial for sexually abusing the columnist E. Jean Carroll in the 1990s. Now, he was forced to pay $5 million for this and defamation. Now, he denies all the allegations, and some aspects of the case are ongoing. But should it concern women that someone who has been found liable by a court of sexual abuse is now in the highest office in the United States? Does it concern you?

No, is the answer. And I don't believe it concerned a lot of women. Otherwise, he would not have gotten into power. Why doesn't it concern you? Sure. So I think let's first look at who funded E. Jean Carroll's case. It was a man called Reed Hoffman. He's part of the so-called PayPal mafia. He funded this case. This case goes back to, and we're not even quite sure, either 1993 or 1994 in a department store dressing room in New York City. And then all of a sudden this just reappears. Okay, but he was found liable? Sure.

By a court? Sure. A court of people found him liable. Is that not concerning? Is it concerning because of... Because you have a politician, you have someone in the highest office in the United States who has been found liable of sexual abuse. Is that what we what we should expect of our political leaders? Well, no, but let's be honest, it goes on all the time. I'm not saying that's right. And I'm not doing whataboutism. But I think the United States is in such a troubled place at the moment,

whether it be with a deficit, whether it be with the crisis at the border, whether it be with, you know, the gas and groceries, whether it be with some sort of, you know, ideological things, foreign policy all over the place, that women should not be reduced to voting for what may or may not have happened back in 1993 or 4 to one woman. I don't think we can say it may or may not have happened because he was found lying in court. Well, we weren't there. We weren't there. But let's say it did happen right um most women out there as a matter of fact every woman with the exception of melania trump are not looking at trump as a um future husband or boyfriend or indeed spiritual leader we have gods for that we have husbands for that we have you know boyfriends for that so what we're looking for is a man to get our country back on track to you know, boyfriends for that. So what we're looking for is a man to get our country back

on track to, you know, to overuse the quote, make America great again. And that is what people voted for Donald Trump for. Jennifer Ewing, thank you very much for joining me on Women's Hour. Thanks for having me. That was Jennifer Ewing from Republicans Overseas. Now, Elise Downing ran 5,000 miles self-supported around the British coast over the course of 10 months. She was not only the youngest person, but also the only female to have completed the challenge. And along the way, she saw Britain at its wild and wonderful best. She ate a lot of cake and she developed a terrible fear of cows. She's now written Walk Britain, a book packed with inspiring ideas on how to get out and explore stunning locations from the Cornish coast to the Isle of Arran. There are 90 different routes across that can be completed on foot, all accessible by public transport.

Elise, very warm welcome to the Women's Hour studio. Before we talk about the book, just tell me a little bit about this, because you ran 5,000 miles self-supported over 10 months. What possessed you? Why did you decide to do that? Hey, yeah, thanks so much for having me today. So it was 10 years ago now that I set off. It was November 2015, which has flown by. And I think I was not a sporty child at all I think whenever on paper I tell people that I've done this they're like you must be some sort of super athlete couldn't be less the case I was so unqualified to set off on that adventure but I started following all these other people who are doing these massive adventures and I think ignorance was bliss to be honest there was

a huge bout of naivety to it and I just thought well other people seem to manage to run these crazy distances like why can't I have a go at that um so there's definitely a lot of naivety in that journey did you have any experience of running up up until this point so I'd started running two years previously I'd done one extremely painful marathon Milton Keynes marathon I was dressed as a purple Crayola crayon and I cried for about eight miles and a small child heckled me and called me the crying crayon. And that was genuinely the sort of extent of my long distance running career. But I was following a lady called Anna McNuff at the time, who's done loads of amazing adventures. And she was running the length of New Zealand and I just remember thinking she made it

seem so sort of possible to do this thing I didn't realize that Anna was the daughter of two Olympians and an ex-team GB rower and I was the crying crayon but she really inspired me to kind of get out there and have a go why why did you decide a crayon uh I dressed up as a crayon once for a night out at university and so I was trying to think of what to dress up as. I was raising some money for charity and I just thought maybe I could bring out the crayon costume again. Fair enough, fair enough. Crazier things have been done. So tell us about the format of the book. There are 90 different routes across England, Wales and Scotland that you can complete on foot without using a car. This is great for me have you done all of these 90 routes

yeah I've done the recceing process took a bit longer than I expected to so I sent out some testers to test out some of the routes that kind of changed or were sort of adapted after I'd been to the location for the first time but they are based largely around we wanted to put a massive amount of variety in there but also just places that I absolutely love I think I spend a lot of time kind of talking about the outdoors and adventure at different sort of like writing about it and talking about it and sometimes it does feel like you're preaching to the choir a bit someone's bought a ticket to come to a talk about a long run they're already into this and so I think I'm always trying to think about how can we get those people who don't already do these things out doing them and it is often this misconception I think I'm always trying to think about how can we get those people who don't already do these things out doing them.

And it is often this misconception, I think, that you can only get to these sort of wild remote places if you drive to them. But I didn't pass my driving test until I was 30. I've done a lot of car free adventures before that. And I was really keen to make this guide book as accessible as possible by being there all on major train lines, sort of well populated bus bus routes and I think it's something the UK has really got going for it our public transport system is not perfect by any means but it does we can get to so many incredible places here in a way that other countries just don't have and I think it's a real asset for us and it does really help the sort of accessibility point when it comes to outdoor adventures. That's very true is do you have a favourite or a few

favourites? Maybe it's too mean to ask one favourite in the book that you recommend? Yeah, I think I absolutely, I live up near the Lake District now. It is my favourite place. So sort of the mountains and lakes around Cumbria. So that chapter has definitely got a soft spot in my heart. And because I spent so much time there, it was really hard to narrow down the routes there. I also I love some obviously I love a coast path I think Pembrokeshire is incredible. A late addition to the book was actually the Isle of Man I visited for their literary festival just before my deadline was booked in. I fell in love with the island and they've got this amazing public transport network of buses, steam trains. I did an a to b run and got a steam train back which felt very exciting so yeah I think I I did

scratch a few places after wrecking them because they just I didn't want I didn't want the routes to be they're not amazing but you can get a train to them so um yeah I can vouch for the fact that they are all amazing routes I think anyway anyway. And you give tips on weather, navigation, rescue. But safety wise, how have you found travelling as a solo woman? Yeah, I think the thing that I always, and I do get asked this a lot, like when I went and ran around the coast of Britain, I was on my own with my backpack on. I was 23 at the time.

But the thing I always try and focus on is the kind of facts around this. Sometimes it can feel a bit scary being sort of somewhere remote by yourself out in a mountain or something but the statistics are we're kind of much safer there than sort of walking around a city so I try and not let the sort of these invented fears take over and focus on the sort of realities and there are also certain things I do like I try and not focus like post live on social media where I am I like to sort of post in retrospect for instance so that you know you're not telling the whole world where to find you all alone on a mountain but I think just yeah focusing on real fear versus sort of imagined fears really helps me. Elise Downing thank you

very much for coming into the Women's Hour studio her book Walk Britain is out on the 6th of February and if you feel inspired you might also like to listen to the Women's Hour studio. Her book, Walk Britain, is out on the 6th of February. And if you feel inspired, you might also like to listen to the Women's Hour New Year's Day programme, which was devoted to women and walking. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Matthew Side and Sideways, my podcast from BBC Radio 4, brings you stories of seeing the world differently. From that moment on, I feel like my life and the way that I view life itself just shifted, literally. Stories about the ideas that shape our lives. If a missile had come down and killed us all, it wouldn't have mattered. It was

just me in a moment of bliss in the middle of a war zone. Stories about everything from the ethics of using AI to simulate conversations with the dead to viewing decay as a vehicle for rebirth. Listen to Sideways, first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out

there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.