Woman's Hour - Israel-Gaza conflict, Endometriosis test, Sam Brown - Savile survivor

Episode Date: October 9, 2023

Images of children, mothers and grandmothers are flooding media and social media two days after a coordinated attack by Hamas on Israel. Israel has since declared war. Emma Barnett speaks to the BBC's Anna Foster, who is in Israel, not far from Gaza, who talks about the impact on women on both sides of the conflict. Also Emma hears from the son of a 74-year-old Israeli former headmistress and Arabic teacher who is believed by her family to have been kidnapped from her home, and Alicia Kearns MP, Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee.A new test could cut the time it takes to diagnose endometriosis from an average of eight years to just eight days. Researchers at the University of Hull have developed a test that uses a urine sample instead of a laparoscopy, an invasive surgical procedure that is currently used to diagnose the condition. Emma is joined by Dr Barbara Guinn, Reader in Biomedical Sciences at the University of Hull, to discuss.The new BBC drama series The Reckoning starts tonight on BBC One. It tells the story of Jimmy Savile, who for decades was one of the UK’s most influential celebrities forging friendships with politicians and royalty and raising millions for charity. But after his death in 2011, it transpired he was also one of the country’s most prolific sexual predators, abusing hundreds of people, many of them children. The series, which stars Steve Coogan as Jimmy Savile, explores how he was able to hide in plain sight and use his celebrity status, powerful connections and fundraising activity to gain uncontrolled access to vulnerable young people. Sam Brown was abused by Saville from the age of 11. Her story is depicted in episode 3 of the series, and she joins Emma.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to today's programme. Images of women, children, mothers and grandmothers are flooding media and social media two days after a coordinated attack by Hamas on Israel. Israel has since declared war. This morning you will hear from the son of a 74-year-old Israeli former headmistress and Arabic teacher who is believed by her family to have been kidnapped by Hamas

from her home on a kibbutz close to Gaza. Also I'll be speaking to the chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, the MP, Alicia Kearns. We also have on the health front some potentially good news on endometriosis from the doctor who is developing a test that could diagnose the condition in eight minutes. It currently takes an average of eight years. And as the BBC drama The Reckoning about Jimmy Savile's horrific campaign of abuse over decades starts tonight, I'll be talking to a woman who is a survivor of that abuse about why she chose to

take part in that controversial drama. But first to Israel where our correspondent Anna Foster is. I spoke to her in the last hour and asked about what she knew of the treatment of women and children at the hands of Hamas and where she was reporting from. Well, I'm in Ashkelon and actually I'm speaking to you right outside a kindergarten. I've just been inside because it's been hit, direct hit on the roof from one of the barrage of missiles that came over from Gaza last night, right through the night. I mean, it barely stopped. And, you know, the sound in the skies, I don't know if you can hear actually, even as I'm talking to you now, you can hear the sound of warplanes going over because we hear the missiles coming from Gaza into southern Israel. And then we hear

the strikes that are happening in Gaza as well. And, you know, on both sides, you have women and you have children who are sheltering from these attacks, whether they are here in southern Israel, whether they are women and children who are in Gaza, who are sheltering from the airstrikes and those planes that you can hear there where they're striking Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad infrastructure and command centers. But this kindergarten, again, when you go inside and you see the toys and you see the pack of baby wipes and you you know you see all of those things but then they're covered in dust because the ceiling has has come in and i

was talking to the the son of the woman who runs it and his baby's cot is right there again the ceilings come down onto it covered in dust you know everything's upended and he was describing how he ran in and scooped up his baby and just ran to the safe house, you know, the safe area to try and take some kind of shelter. And, you know, all of this, whether it's people trying to shelter from attacks here, whether it's the women and children who have been taken hostage and taken to Gaza, you know, all of these things that we are seeing just show you really how this conflict has moved and shifted again. You know it's such a long-running conflict. Some of the headlines are focusing and some of the images and the footage on social media are in particular focusing on what's happened to girls, women, older women, mothers, grandmothers. What is the picture from your point of view on this?

Because we know in war there's a very specific thing that can happen to women. Yeah, and I think you're right. I think the reason that there is so much focus on those images is because those are the ones that people tend to find the most distressing to see. And certainly, you know, for people I've been speaking to here, they find it enormously, enormously difficult and almost a step on from usual conflict to see the way that women, as you said here, have been degraded, to see the way that women have been kidnapped, to see the way that videos have been made of women's bodies being desecrated. This, I think, people are finding particularly difficult. And also children as well, Emma, you know, these images of children

who've been taken hostage, taken across to Gaza. There is a real sense, I think, not just here in southern Israel, where I am right now, the whole of Israel, in fact, but really around the world, that those images cross a particular line it's something that the people don't often see when they think of conflict and you're right it's really drawing an awful lot of attention in this case was it was it were there any children in that kindergarten when the missiles were coming down or were they in safe houses what can you say about that so fortunately this happened in the early hours of the morning. And one thing about these

Israeli southern communities that are so close to the Gaza fence is that they are used to missile attacks. You know, it's a sad fact. And I've been here before, actually, just a little bit further down in a city called Starot. And, you know, I remember talking to families there and they say, look, this is our lives, you know, talking to mothers whose children are used to spending hours in a safe room, doing their homework or playing, you know, where they say that these children grow up traumatized because, you know, children shouldn't have to know the sound of a siren going off and they shouldn't have to run for safety. There was a big bang that you heard there just over Gaza. You know, they shouldn't be hearing these things. They shouldn't be seeing this. They shouldn't be experiencing this. And even though the missile

attacks that, you know, that they've been seeing for months and years, they are used to dealing with, you know, what we've seen in the last 48 hours is such an escalation on that. It is, you know, it's something new, as you said, you know, they're going back to probably the Yom Kippur War of 1973 since they saw something on this size, on this scale. And as we're going to hear from from our next guest on this, someone who's who's trying to reach out and talk about this in the media about what he believes has happened to his 74 year old mother we've seen the names of of other women in their 70s and 80s even older um not all verified but some names coming forward from families of of those who are missing the grandmothers as it were um what what have you been able to to glean about that and that particular perhaps as some are saying a strategy by her mass well again you know so much of of what we hear and what we see

revolves around these these videos that have been taken and put out there, you know, videos of, as you say, these these elderly women who women who've been taken. There's one where you see, you know, you see an elderly lady, she's being driven along on a on a golf cart, she's surrounded by Hamas militants, she appears to not understand a great deal about what's going on around her and again you know that is there's something that people have really focused on and said how can that be something that that is considered by anybody a you know a legitimate thing to do in any kind of long-running conflict regardless of where you stand on it you know how is that something which is acceptable to take elderly women who themselves have not been fighters, they've never partaken in this conflict in any way, and yet you see them sort of out there, vulnerable, being used for the sort of social media propaganda. It is very difficult for people to see. Anna Foster in Israel, our correspondent. Now we can hear from Noam Sagi,

born in Israel, now living in London. He believes his 74-year-old mother, Ada, who lives on Kibbutz near Oz, next to Gaza, has been kidnapped by Hamas. As you will hear, the family has not had this confirmed by the Israeli government, but when the Israeli army went to her home, she was gone and there was only bloodstains. Ada is a recently widowed Arabic teacher, and as you'll hear, the daughter of Holocaust survivors. I spoke to her son Noam and he told us about his mother, as he calls her the head of the family tribe and grandmother of his children. She's 74 years old, 75 next week, supposed to actually come here to London to celebrate her 75th birthday. My mum, born in Tel Aviv for Holocaust survivors' parents, and decided at the age of 18 to move and help to create this beautiful

community called Kibbutz, which is on the southern part of israel was very loving peaceful environment where i was born in the 70s and grew up there the whole idea for them was to create something quite different which based on agricultural essence not necessarily religious, but more about the relationship with the land and what you grow. And this is a very equal sharing environment, community, what basically the only rule they have is you give as much as you can, you take as much as you need.

That was it. And she's an arabic teacher is that right so then you know so she's a mother of three and then she basically decided to for the future of her and her kids to invest in uh learning and teaching arabic because she believed that this is the way to to communicate with your neighbours and make relationship and make friends. And it's never going to be about politics. It will be about people and about communication.

So she became the headmistress of the original Kibbutzim schools. And then she was in charge of teaching Arabic in the southern part of Israel. And that was for many years her mission. And now she has been in contact when with the family? What is the latest that you know? On the morning of the 7th of October, which is Saturday, last Saturday, she was in touch with us, thinking that that would be just another normal code red kind of

where they know how to deal with the situation normally when it's shelling and rockets coming from the Gaza Strip they are really about we're talking 400 meters from from the border this is where her house is the first line so she just thought that that would be another one of those and went into the safe room and that was at 9 20 in the morning and by 9 30 the phone gone off and since we never heard from her we assumed that we just lost contact and we're waiting for the army to take care of the situation. As we learned from different outlets, mainly actually Palestinian media, who actually broadcast from her front lawn. So I see footage of someone talking about what's going on in the kibbutz

from the eyes of the people who took over and take charge of the kibbutz from her front house. And so that is where my heart started to sink. And I realized that something is much, much worse is going on. It's only later in the afternoon when the army managed to get hold and got in. And when they got into her house, it was only bloodstains there. She was not there. And when they got into her house, it was only bloodstains there. She was not there. And that was it. So have you assumed that she has been kidnapped

or what is your understanding on this Monday morning? So our understanding is that she's kidnapped. You know, we didn't identify her yet on the other side and no one, you know, contacted us to say, hey, we have your mom. Let's talk. That didn't happen. So we're talking about someone who went 75, four years old, went into a safe room and she's not there.

She's not on the dead list. She's not injured, on the injured list at least. And it's a small community. We're talking about 300, 350 people max, and they know each other. So they've gone through the process of identifying everyone. And about over 20 of them, actually, mainly elderly and small young kids, are being abducted.

We believe to Chaniunas, which is the southern part of Gaza Strip, which is the closest point to the kibbutz. Actually, through the vineyard of the kibbutz, you just cross through to Chaniunas. And I think that that was the case. So this is our belief. There is no any formal approval for this. We didn't heard from anyone. We just have to make our own assumptions. So we know she's not hiding. We know she's not at home. We know she's not anywhere

in and around the kibbutz. She had hip replacement not long ago, so she can't run far. How are you coping with this? How are your family coping with this? It's somehow between completely surreal, sounds like a horror movie that it's hard to to compute just imagine a lovely rural village here in in the uk and people just going through their life they're very blue zone they take care of how they eat and how they move and how they rest and everything is all very

conscious and then you're just being snatched out of your house just like that and being taken away. So it feels unreal on so many levels. It feels inhumane on another level. It is very upsetting to think that this is even possible, that even in war there are rules. And we're talking about men in their 20s and their 30s that come into an old woman's house and snatch her and her neighbors, actually. So she's not alone and i must say you know we are quite a few of us they're dealing with exactly the same

situation but it is uh first i'm afraid and scared for her i know she needs medication i know she's allergic to so many you know you know she have no happy pen with her so i don't know but this is first world problems we're thinking about emotions and you know well i mean if you don't mind me saying you you just said as we were coming on air you work in in psychotherapy i mean this this is something you're i imagine just trying to to cope with and think about it in the way that we know how but it's not something regular to think about at all it no it it is completely out of the regular. There is one thing here.

You know, she's a very strong woman and I really trust her to deal with the situation. But it's not her that I really not trust that this is any humanity in the way that they took her, in the way that they took her friends, in the way that they're dealing with 84 people, 84 years old people there so i am seeing life a little bit through the keyhole right now i'm very focused on the task ahead and i want

to see mom coming back home alive and well of course looking at the bigger picture there is loads and loads of emotions that can take over and it is very very difficult and upsetting we're talking about six grandchildren that her grandmother is now in a situation and we have to contain all that. It's very, very difficult. For you as a family, hostage taking, if this has indeed happened, as you believe it has happened to your mum and where, you know, things haven't been verified even to you. But the reason for doing it is the emotional impact it has on people and on the families and the toll that it has. And I wonder what you can say about that for you, but also your wider family. She's a grandma and she has many people who know her and care about her.

For us, this is absolutely everything, everything. We will do everything possible. We will never celebrate one losing their life for any good cause. That is never the case. We are going to protect and save and make the most of everyone's life. And my mom, she's the head of the tribe. We lost my dad for cancer last year and she took, you know, the reign in an amazing, amazing way.

The strength that this lady has, it's absolutely phenomenal and inspiring. It may be far too early to ask, but I just want to, while you're here, if you don't mind, I mean, do you feel you will see your mum again? Do you have faith that you can see her again? As you say, she's 74. She's not got her medication. She's been taken from her home. She does live extremely close to Gaza. So when you painted that image of a life there, you know, she obviously will have had experience because there are safe rooms. That's what is different

to what you've described, I suppose, to comparing it to England. But do you have faith that you may see her again? How are you living with that at the moment? If I will accept any other option, it means I'm already responding. My first four months and my everything will respond to the worst case scenario. So I'm not allowing myself to go there. I have a son. He's here in an English school, need to get ready for his GCSE and I need to make sure that he is not getting into all this stuff. So I need to do that for myself. So yes, I am

absolutely sure in every fibre that we will get her back and that we will see her. Noam Sagi telling us about his mother. The Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said yesterday, the scenes we have seen in Israel over the last 36 hours are truly horrifying. I spoke to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu earlier today to assure him of the UK's steadfast support as Israel defends itself against these attacks. Terrorism will not prevail. Last night, 10 Downing Street was lit up with the Israeli flag. And I can

talk now to Alicia Kearns, the Conservative MP and chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee that has, among other things, looked at the issue of preventing sexual violence in conflict. Good morning. Good morning. Just to start with what we were hearing there from Noam, who believes at the moment that his mother, 74 years of age, has been kidnapped from her home. We have also seen images of women, children and women of much older age down to those as children, but also those who were attending a music festival. What do you want to say and your reaction to what could be some form of strategy in this? I mean, it's horrifying. And obviously my heart goes out to Noah and every single Israeli who doesn't know if their son, neighbour, daughter,

you know, it won't just be women being raped, anyone who is worried about a loved one. But the problem is this keeps happening. Men keep getting away with it in war zones, in conflict. And it is a planned and deliberate strategy of war. You know, we saw this in Bosnia, we see it in Ukraine, in the Congo, you name it, where it is done to inflict terror. It is done to ethnically cleanse. It is done to humiliate and dominate. And it is done because women are seen as property that needs to be conquered. We have to do more about this and we have to talk about this more. And I'm very minded to bring up and again, always being aware of what's been verified

and what's not. But there's been a lot of footage shared and some of it particularly graphic. I don't particularly want to describe some of it. There is one circulating on social media, which looks like the motionless body of a young woman in the back of a pickup truck. As reportedly, those from Hamas are sat on top of her. She's been identified by her mother, Ricarda Luke, as a 30-year-old German-Israeli Shani Luke. Trying to also give people their names here and have women's names heard on the radio. It's very important, not least on Women's Hour. This is this is something that you as in a position of authority, a position of trust. And as a member of this committee, as the head of this committee, the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, you say it keeps happening.

And I suppose when you see these images, what is the response? We've heard from the prime minister, but what do you say? It is it is horrifying. You know, Shani, Noah, the girl on the motorbike, the videos of Hamas terrorists filming Israeli women and using the word Sabaya, which means sex slave. We have to do something about it. And it starts with ending impunity.

Men do this because they can get away with it. So we need to make sure that there are more international prosecutions happening. The first prosecution only took place in the 90s. And then something that I've been calling for is we need a new international body that when there is the earliest sign of conflict, when wars break out, a group of people that go into country and help collect the evidence contemporaneously. We cannot wait until after the conflict. We cannot wait until the guns have stopped being fired because the evidence, as we know, is no longer there. We need to go into countries and support those local prosecutors' offices. And I have to say, in Ukraine, the prosecutor general has been absolutely

determined to crack down on this. The second thing we need to invest in as the UK is recovery services. So that psychosocial support, you know, in Bosnia, again, as a good example, those women lost 27, 28 male members of their families, Ukrainian women are losing the men in their lives. And the women will be forced to rebuild the society because they have no other choice. But they will be asked to do so without dealing with their own trauma and healing from it. So those psychosocial support services really matter, but also the reproductive rights, immediate reproductive care for women so they can rebuild, but also support packages for men, because too often part of the rape is to shame the men, to force them to isolate their women and not support them anymore. We have to engage men in this conversation. And the final thing I believe we have to do is show

that international leadership. We have to keep talking about this, but we also have to make sure that through our aid and through our programming, we are looking at male violence prevention, preventative work to deal with the scourge of male violence around the world. I don't like calling it violence against women and girls. This is male violence. And when we call it violence against women and girls, we shift the focus from the perpetrator to the woman. And we also fail to talk about the fact that men and children are being raped as well.

And the final thing we can do as part of that aid programming work is supporting survivors. So my friend, Don McVeigh, he builds factories in Ethiopia where he employs women who are survivors of sexual violence. He gives them support they need, psychosocial as well as economics, they can build their own lives, and also investing in reproductive rights around the world. This is something the UK really has to lead on. I mean, people may remember, you know, William Hay coming

together with Angelina Jolie to launch a whole review of this and a whole system and even an event around exactly what you're talking about, the systemised use of women in war zones. I use that word use very carefully because it takes in a whole lot of things. And you're right to also point out what can also happen to men in all of this as well. But, and I recognise we're talking at the beginning of a very different stage of conflict in Israel now. And I just wanted to get from you, has any progress really been made? I mean, I know you're saying nowhere near enough, because is this something that even gets focused on until much, much later? And then perhaps it's too late because of evidence. So I think Ukraine shows us that progress has been made. So when I

brought those four Ukrainian female MPs to Parliament only a few weeks into the war, they were brave enough to talk about the fact that rape was happening, even though they'd only had a handful of people report it. Because I said to them, if you've had a handful, that means there have been hundreds. And if you don't speak out about this now, those women and those victims and those survivors may not have the confidence to come forward. And as we know now, there are thousands, tens of thousands coming forward. The prosecutor general in Ukraine, he has really been unabashed in talking about this and looking to secure prosecutions. That might not have happened before William Hague's initiative.

It might not also have happened because in Ukraine, before the renewed illegal invasion, unfortunately, there were too many people who still thought that rape was something that just happened to women. And that's why we have to deal with sexual violence also in peacetime in countries around the world. The Nadi Murad code, that amazing woman, you know, survivor of being a Yazidi sex slave, her code has been brought forward and is being introduced. And I think only last year or the year before, another 50 countries agreed to join up to commitments around preventing sexual violence and conflict, including countries like Nigeria, where there is currently a great deal of sexual violence taking place. So we are seeing progress, but we have to talk about it and we

have to make sure that this is built into all of our programming around the world we've talked a bit about the hostage takers we understand it of older women you know it's been very striking in particular of of grandmothers you know not all will be grandmothers but that's how some have been described by their family members looking for them we've just heard from one but at the younger end of the scale not the child side but of young women and men but there are a lot of images it seems of women at that particular music festival, the Israeli Music Festival, 260 bodies recovered from a site where people say they fled in a hail of bullets. And as we understand it this morning, and we've just been hearing in the news bulletins, the search for bodies there, which people are describing as a horror film, has had to be stopped because of more potential risk of

life to those doing that search. But lots of images of carefree, in particular young women, and being at that music festival, which I imagine is very striking for you. It is. And look, as I said, this all goes down to the humiliation of women, the belief, the inbuilt misogyny, the perversion of religion to claim that you have a right to control women's bodies. I mean, Putin in February only made a joke about this act. I think his words were something like, like it or don't like it, it's your duty, beauty. That was his comment when rape was raised and what was taking place. You know, we have world leaders justifying women

as being something that can be conquered and abused. And it is striking that these women who represented freedom and joy and who wanted to make their own futures, that they are the ones being taken hostage by people who are solely seeking to destroy and to terrorise. And Israel's retaliation has begun, but the full operation, the full scale

of that operation and what will happen to those Palestinians will start to be known and start to be a reality. And women who will therefore then be in a situation with no electricity and will be dealing with this on the other side of this will also be facing a reality. I recognise you and I are talking specifically about hostage taking and rape and sexual assault, but there is also that to make sure, and I'm sure there will be increasing focus as that response, that coordinated response, begins properly. You're absolutely right. In any conflict, it is women who suffer most, it is women who have to pick up the pieces. And the reality is that Palestinian women are suffering and have been suffering for a long time. They have no access to water, to low health care. There are horrifying stories about women forced to give birth in certain parts of the country who then are not allowed to go back and breastfeed their child more than once a week while their child is in hospital.

There is inequity and there are real problems here. The priority is supporting women in every single way we can because women lose out. But we should be very clear that Hamas's action, their attack on Israel, was not done in the interest of the people of Palestine. Nothing they have done will result in better conditions for the people of Palestine. It is solely in their own interests as terrorists that they have acted, and it is Palestinian women who will absolutely bear the worst brunt. Alicia Kearns, Conservative MP and Chair of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee that has, as I say, among other things, looked at the issue of preventing sexual violence in conflict.

An important day and an important moment to get an update on how things have progressed on that front, as many images are shared in the media and on social media. Now I did say that there was some developments potentially on the health front for something for millions of women because a new test could cut the time it takes to diagnose a condition called endometriosis from an average of eight years to just eight days. Researchers at the University of Hull have developed a test that uses a urine sample to diagnose the condition instead of the invasive examination currently used to identify it.

The charity Endometriosis UK estimates that around 1.5 million women live with the condition in Britain. I'm joined by the lead researcher of this study, Dr Barbara Ginn, Reader in Biomedical Sciences at the University of Hull. Good morning. Good morning. Endometriosis, may you define it first of all for us? Yep, it's a growth of endometrial light tissue where it shouldn't be growing so normally it's in the you know your endometrium is in the uterus but for women with endometriosis then it can be growing outside of the uterus it can be in the abdomen the bowel and even in rare

cases so less than one percent some women will even have bleeding from the nose or in the lungs once a month. And for those who do know about this, but for those who don't, it might be quite shocking that the only way to get a diagnosis also is pretty painful and invasive. Yeah, the only sort of the gold standard way of getting a diagnosis is a laparoscopy where a camera and a surgical knife is inserted into the abdomen and the surgeons get to have a proper look around. However, the advice now is that women don't actually have to have a laparoscopy. This doesn't have to be performed if it's not indicated. Right. Okay. I didn't realise that that had changed, but

it's often said you only know for sure if. And that is where your work comes in. What have you managed to develop? What are you developing? So with two students in my lab leah cooksey and hannah draper and with all the help from the hay um so the hull in east yorkshire bsge endometriosis center in castle hill hospital in hull we've been able to develop a urine test and the urine test will allow us to detect proteins that change we've seen more of them in women who have deep endometriosis. I mean I just want to give you a massive hug if that's not too unprofessional as someone who didn't get diagnosed for 20 odd years because to find out you have it even though then what you do about it can be very difficult the fact that you could find out the fact that it's not just oil in your head is incredibly important um and this is why this

is a potentially major breakthrough yeah we're really excited and we're trying to be um calm about it there's such cautious excitement you're sort of yeah i love the way you're making sure you give credit to everyone you've worked with you're sort of sitting there I can see where you're sitting it looks wonderfully if you don't mind me saying researchy you've got plants and box files all around you I have to describe this we're on the radio but but why so cautious um just because at the moment what we're doing is just making sure we know exactly the best way to use the test. So some of the things that we're looking at at the moment are things like how we store wheat. We know that we can't keep it at room temperature for a few days. So popping in the post isn't going to work.

Just to clarify in case anyone thinks they missed that, it's how to store wheat. I just think we should take a moment on that. That might be what this all comes down to, is to make sure, I'm sorry, just got to have some sort of laugh with you this morning, to try and make sure we've taken that in, because it's important to store wee in a certain way.

Tell us more. If you're not going to do it on Woman's Hour, where are you going to do it? You know, to talk in this season. My daughter's informed me it's not normal to keep wee in the fridge. And I'm like, is it not? Next to the milk and the other goods.

Yes, exactly. So we are working with a company called Novosarnis who've been absolutely brilliant. Them and the European Association for Cancer Research actually gave us a 25,000 euro reward that allowed us to start to develop this test. One of the major issues with endometriosis research is it's very difficult to get funding. So there is funding, there are charities like Endometriosis UK, absolutely phenomenal for support for women and giving out facts and information. But actually trying to find a place where we can get research money has been difficult. And there are a limited number of charities and government groups that actually will fund.

And then we're competing with all the other disorders that also need attention and research. I mean, on a very serious note, there is very compelling data now about how much money, if you're going to, money talks, and how much money is lost from an economy because of women who cannot work because of this condition yeah 8.2 billion a year is what it's thought to cost the uk economy mostly in loss of work and also in the cost of healthcare right so just phenomenal again something to you know very serious to to pause on how accurate is the test when you compare it?

I don't know if this is part of the testing of it, but when you compare it to laparoscopy or other scanning? Scanning is as good as the person who does the scanning. So if someone's got lots of experience of scanning women with endometriosis, then it can be incredibly good. Obviously, the gold standard is laparoscopy. At the moment, we're looking at just how sensitive the test is. And we know there's certain external factors that influence that. So we believe that time of day, time of month, storage conditions will all have an impact on our ability to test we but we also think it's incredibly

sensitive and that we can actually tell the difference between someone with deep endometriosis and superficial endometriosis and how far i know you've got funding issues but how far could you be from this you know being widespread um so at the moment we are just looking at different options for how we make the test to make sure that we've got the best option possible. We're starting to talk to companies about developing the test to make it probably used by GPs in the first instance. We'd want a medical professional to talk to someone if they do get a positive result so that they can then be referred down the right pathway but what we're hoping is that it will speed up that triaging getting people to the right place at the right

time and also some treatment doesn't require laparoscopy and so there are there are treatment guidelines nice guidelines on the pathways that you can follow depending on what you believe someone has in terms of endometriosis. Just as a woman leading in your field, and it's always a pleasure to have such women on the programme, you know, you've got an amazing track record. You've made important discoveries before. I understand. And I'm sorry if I get this slightly wrong, but you correct me if I do. You identified the protein which enabled doctors treating leukemia patients to understand how aggressive the disease is. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. You've done your research. Well, I work with very good producers who help me and we hope to come together to present correctly. In my line of work, to put it like this, if you get some good interviews, if you secure the trust of people to talk to you, you then hopefully carry on doing really great things.

Is it not the same? You've proven yourself in your field. Why can't this now just get the absolute weight of funding and all of that? Is it not the same in your world? No, it is very competitive, which I know it is in your world as well. And it is very hard. There's a lot of people who want money for their research. There's a lot of amazing researchers doing endometriosis research, but also doing research in other areas. And my background has been in identifying targets for therapy and targets proteins that are biomarkers that have allowed us to find out whether a patient with leukemia at diagnosis has a good prognosis or not. And then in this case,

you know, we've identified a protein in urine. So for me, looking at urine has been novel, and that's something I've just started doing in the last five years. But it's been amazing. We can't believe that it's looking as promising as it is. Well, if you're a betting woman, how long do you think until, if it is as promising as you think it is, how long before you could go to the GP and do a urine test for endometriosis? I would like to have a test that could be used by GPs in two to three years time. And I'm pushing, we're all pushing really hard for that. So we have some money at the moment from the MRC,

which is Medical Research Council, that is now allowing us to do this stage of optimisation of the test, just making sure we get the timing right of when we do it. We thoroughly understand, you know, when the best time is to do it, to make it as specific for endometriosis as possible. Well, you probably didn't hear it first, I'm sure it's been talked about in your world, but maybe for a lot of our listeners, they may have heard it first. If it is to become the case, good luck with it. Please keep us in the loop. Let us know how it goes. Many of our listeners will either know someone or have it themselves. That is how widespread it is. And certainly more knowledge about it and better diagnosis will help in that and Dr Barbara Ginn that's the name of the woman you were just hearing

there who is hoping to make this big leap forward in terms of diagnostics reader in biomedical sciences at the University of Hull I should also say we contacted the Department of Health for a statement but it has not or nobody, has got back to us yet. We'll update you on that if it changes. Let me ask you a question and something that's been on my mind ever since the conversation last week, which you may or may not have heard. But for those who did, it certainly resonated. Have you been into a cathedral in the middle of the night? Well, someone on the programme last week, Anna Lapwood, it's a regular occurrence because she is a world-famous organist.

With a new album out called Luna, she's hoping more people will get into organ music. And in particular, Anna is passionate about getting women more involved in organ music and especially the midnight practices. She told us why she's so passionate. Well, the organ world has historically been a pretty male-dominated place. I mean, in 2022, 8% of organ recitals were given by women. And it's just trying to say to young women who are perhaps thinking of music more generally,

this is a place that you belong to. And so we run the Cambridge Organ Experience for Girls. When we first ran that, it was 20 girls came along. Most of them had never played the organ. This year we had more than 80 girls and 60% of them did already play the organ. So it's just trying to create opportunities and spaces within this amazing world

that is the organ world, where they feel safe, where they feel nurtured, where they feel supported and welcome. And hopefully in 10 years time, we won't be having this conversation. Why would you say safe or nurtured? What's off-putting? Well, I think if the male organists, they tend to start a little bit earlier, right? And so if, I don't know, a 13-year-old girl comes in and she's trying the organ for the first time and she's playing next to a 13-year-old boy who's been playing for quite a long time, that can feel really terrifying, right? And there can be this nervousness of even trying it and taking the risk. Whereas if they're in an environment where actually a lot of them have

never played before, some of them have, but they split off into groups. It means that they do feel like they can try it, have a go, maybe get it wrong, that's fine. And yeah, as I said, I think we all hope eventually we will not be having the conversation about gender in the organ world because it just won't be a problem anymore. But we still have a way to go before we get there. Is it right you practice in the middle of the night? Yeah, a lot of us do,. Right, sounds sociable. Well there are many many ways though

the organ is not the most sociable instrument in the world but yeah when we're playing in these cathedrals and concert halls they tend to be pretty busy in the day. It's a loud instrument you can't disturb people and so the standard organist practice hours tend to be middle of the night at the Royal Albert Hall it's midnight till six. I love that I love knowing about other worlds things that are going on when people are asleep that's such a great image almost to have in your mind of organists across the country and across the world working at twilight. Well I mean if you're going to give a recital in a cathedral you tend to get given a key and you just are in there completely by yourself and it's a little bit spooky, the lights are all off.

But you feel like you're sort of seeing a totally different side to these iconic buildings, Westminster Abbey, places like that, where you know they have been so full of joy and life and then it's just you filling it with sound. You hit the wrong note when you're playing the organ, can you cover it over quite easily? It's pretty loud. It's quite loud.

I mean, I think as with any instrument, it's about how you kind of... Style it out. How you style it out and wrong notes happen on every instrument. They do. That's Anna Lapwood there. Lots of you were thinking about that, so we wanted to make sure you heard a bit of that interview

and you can hear it in full on BBC Sounds. Well, tonight on the BBC, a new controversial drama. It centres around Jimmy Savile, one of the UK's most influential celebrities who raised millions for charity. But after his death in 2011, it transpired he had, over decades, sexually abused hundreds of people.

The BBC's new drama series is called The Reckoning. It does start this evening and it stars Steve Coogan as Jimmy Savile. It explores how he was able to hide in plain sight, use his celebrity status, powerful connections and fundraising activity to gain uncontrolled access to vulnerable young people and children. When the drama was announced by the BBC, there was a backlash. Some questioned why it needed to be made at all, and some survivor organisations accused the BBC of making entertainment out of his crimes.

It is a very harrowing watch, and this morning I'm joined by a survivor, Sam Brown. Her story features in episode three. Sam and three other survivors, Darian, Susan and Kevin, also speak directly to the camera at the start and end of each episode. Sam, good morning. Good morning. It's nice to be here. Thank you for being here. Before we talk about perhaps some of the reaction,

a few of the critics have seen it earlier than the rest of everyone else who may tune in this evening. What made you want to take part in the drama i think for me i've done a few documentaries because i want to be able to talk as much as i can about what it is like to live well with your whole universe actually being rewired from a child on through to adulthood. I want everybody that has not experienced that to try and understand that. So this for me was very different. And I had to think about this quite a lot because obviously there was going to be a person cast as me as a child. And with my adult head on and my separation that I managed to do with myself

when I'm doing all of this, I knew this was going to be a real challenge because the reality of seeing me as a child, as a grown-up, I thought would be really difficult. And it was really difficult, but I think it needed... I like the drama. I like that you'll see me as an adult, and I look OK, you know, I look as if I've done all right in life, and I, you know, but I was that child.

And to get to be in this person has been a really long trip and a hard trip and a confusing trip and difficult for people I know, my family, my children. The impact has been huge, I think. So I did know it was going to be difficult, and it was a difficult watch. And I felt really sorry for that little girl, like really sorry.

And my husband said, you know, hang on, that's you. You know, that's you as a little girl. And I want the audience... This is different because I think there's going to be a connection. And when it becomes more personal and a connection is made with what you see you you then want to learn you want to open your mind and all of them things that you find difficult and i understand that this is a topic that is really difficult i understand that but

that was really difficult for us really difficult for us as children, not on anybody that's been abused. But I want everybody to learn. You know, we've gone these days where we're saying that teenagers... You know, I work for social services, so I know this is not rare. People seem to think that this is something that only happens now and then.

Abuse of children is every single day. Every single day. And we still, which I think would surprise people, daily kids are being brought into care that have been used and abused. Daily. Can I... I mean, it's a very important reality,

but because you just talked about what it would be like to see yourself as a little girl and keeping it with a very important reality, but because you just talked about what it would be like to see yourself as a little girl and keeping it with this for a moment, but that is a bigger message and I hope we can return to that. What age were you when you were first abused by Jimmy Southwark? I think it started really about 11, about 11 and a half, and went on until I was about 14. And how did you come across him or how did he come across you?

Well, we used to go to church, chapel at Stoke Mandeville on a Saturday night rather than Sundays. My dad played, we had football teams. So Sunday was a mad busy day. And so we used to go on the Saturday nights. So that's the church in the hospital? Yeah. Which actually Stoke Vandervoort

didn't idea they ever had, which was kind of funny when we were doing all this kind of stuff. They pretended they didn't have a chapel. So we used to go there on Saturday night and because my mum did the cleaning, she was quite close of the churches, you know,

so she was close with the priests. So it was my job, it became my job then to go into a little, like a little tiny presbytery, get the collection tray, wait for the time to go out and then pass that round in the benches. And that's where I met him, in that room. And it wasn't once that something happened to you? No, it was continuously. He used to come to church, you know, I guess about once every three weeks sometimes.

You know, sometimes he'd be there every other week. You know, it depended. And it was always my job. So the more I went the more I went into I knew already when I walked into the room I already knew and that he had a sense of power and um I understood that I really straight away that that he would um he was gonna you know touch me in ways that I didn't like to be touched. I knew that already. So I walked in and then he stood in front of...

That was the first test. He was very good at, you know, doing little taster sessions to see who he could do what to, you know. So obviously I'd had abuse anyway, so I kind of got it. So he was in front, stood in front with another man, and I don't know what that other man... I don't know who that was. I never really was brave enough to look up, you know, like I used to look at the floor an awful lot.

And I had to stretch past him to get a collection plate. And the first time I did that, I turned round, because the door was open, so I could see the priest and I could see everyone's heads, you know, in the congregation. I could see my mum's, I could see my brother's, I could see everyone's. And I can remember the first time

where I turned round and, you know, he'd start touching my shoulders and touching my back and, you know, and I'd freeze and wait for that. And obviously the more I went in, the more confident he got to a point where, you know, he would have his whole... I say this, I do say this to a lot of people because I think really all the people that's given me the opportunity to talk,

that when he used to put his whole fingers and his whole hand into my mouth, there was nothing plainer for him to tell me. I had no voice. I had no power. You know, he was in control. And I used to feel he didn't do that all the time, but he did that a lot. And I kind of felt that was his enjoyment, was to feel that power over me. And throughout the time, I mean, I tried really hard before we went to church to try and protect myself, put lots of knickers on, use a lot of other things to, and this is going to sound awful and I'm really sorry,

but to fill up any holes that I had so that fingers couldn't go in there. I tried my hardest and I used to cry and it used to be painful. But he still did what he wanted to do. And actually, when I think about it, probably the more I tried to protect myself, the bigger buzz became, you know, for him. So that did go on for years, looking at everyone's heads and waiting and wishing that someone would see me.

I kind of felt really invisible. With the door open, you know, you're like, all of these people are in here and nobody can see me. And I felt like that from little, really, growing up. I was an invisible, unimportant... I wasn't really a person. I didn't, you know... I didn't feel like I existed in the world.

I just took breaths, you know? I went through emotions of being alive, but didn't live. And that's what happens with all of this. Thank you for sharing that, Sam. That's OK. Don't be sad. I don't want you to be sad. I just say it because it will be hard for people to hear. It is hard.

And it's hard for you to say, but it's important for you to say. Yeah. Which is why you wanted to take part in this, and different people will have different views on that. And I listen, I'm really sad. Everyone at home, I don't, I know this can break your heart. I know this because nobody wants to hear that. But I am saying this not, not to hurt you, but to help you.

Because you obviously want this to change. Yeah. We can't have... How many young people do we want to feel like that? You talked about you were abused before and that speaks to being vulnerable perhaps to him. Yeah. How did you find your voice?

How did you talk out about this? How did you let anybody know at any point? And when was that um about 21 i there was a reaction to something that happened and i heard somebody scream and um and that was game over for me for a year i i i then i had two children by then and my husband had to take a year off work. I could not function. I was so scared. I reverted into the child that used to hide underneath the cupboard in school, you know, like hide underneath the sink cupboard.

I had everything. I had a fear of everything to a massive degree. And I couldn't walk. I stopped walking. I couldn't go into a room by. And I couldn't walk. I stopped walking. I couldn't go into a room by myself. I couldn't do. So I was really lucky to have a woman to come to the home every day. And that's how.

Because I knew I couldn't be put to hospital because I would just die. You know I can't leave my kids because they're the reason I was alive. And every day she spent with me and that took a year um for me to I think I had massive um pdsd and that just took a big bang and and that was part of of this coming yeah yeah of you, it was flooded, flooded, flooded. The sound in that scream was the sound my inside self felt, you know, for so long. And you're living in a world, of course, where it takes then a long time.

You know, let's talk about this 2015 and Inquiry reveals that in 1968 to 92, Jimmy Savile abused at least 60 people connected to the hospital, aged 8 to 40, 90% female. A formal complaint from an 11-year-old was ignored. It found his reputation as a sex pest was an open secret among some staff. And then if you look at the BBC as well, what was known or what wasn't known, a lot of discussion around that. In fact, that's why a lot of people don't want this drama, perhaps, on the BBC. It was made by ITV Studios, but small detail, it's a BBC drama. How has that left you feeling about institutions

as you've continued to move through your life, whether that's church, NHS, BBC? School, anywhere, or everyone. Do you know, well I, well not confident clearly. I mean I think that the entitled behaviour that is allowed with somebody that's got the, you know that's important and that's not just Jimmy Savile, you know anybody

important in organisations, you know work that's important. And that's not just Jimmy Savile. You know, anybody important in organisations, you know, work, whatever, whatever it is, it's sickening because everyone knew this. My life, I might have been a completely different person. I don't know. I tried to kill myself so much, you know, from like 11 till 15. I was always trying to kill myself.

Somebody could have stopped that for me. Somebody could have helped me. So I feel that the people that knew and didn't talk or didn't talk loud enough are also responsible. And until, I think, until we get to a stage where these people are accountable, I mean, really accountable. And while they're alive, of course.

Yes, and alive. Deep detail for you. Yeah. Then, you know, and the people that knew around. I know there was nurses that knew. I know that these people will... That will be the moment where it's a big change. Yes.

And I think that's why also, you know, for some, this evening it's a big change yes and and i think that's why also you know for some this evening it's it's called the reckoning just to in case people miss the name it's on iplayer now but it begins this evening bbc one at nine o'clock they will see you and they will see your fellow survivors the ones that have chosen to take part and that it's important for them to also hear you today on woman's hour yeah talking about why you wanted to do that but also what will represent progress. Sam, we're going to have to leave it there. But Sam Brown, thank you very much.

No, thank you. And thank you for this time. For coming on to the programme today and for being so candid. I should say there are links on our website if you've been affected in any way by what you've heard. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, it's Amol. And I'm Nick and we're launching the Today podcast from Radio 4. Come on then, what is it Nick? Well, every week we're going to take a big subject we want to spend more time on because I don't know about you, when I present the Today programme, I'm always thinking of things I wish I'd asked, I wish I'd heard. And this is going to give us the time to do that, to get more analysis, more insight, sometimes more gossip. Same goes for me. I'm looking forward to this.

Episodes will drop every Thursday. It's called the Today Podcast. And you can listen now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.