Woman's Hour - Jacinda Ardern's leadership; W series; Talking to children about their disabilities

Episode Date: March 21, 2019

There's been widespread praise for Jacinda Ardern handling of the terrorist attack in Christchurch. She's been held up as an example of how women leaders can handle some problems better. But do women leaders really do things differently? Journalist Anne McElvoy and former special adviser Ayesha Hazarika discuss. The W series for women's motor racing has launched, it aims to address the imbalance in a sport which hasn't seen a female compete at the top level for well over 25 years. We talk to driver Jamie Chadwick, W Series CEO Catherine Bond-Muir and to journalist, Poppy McKenzie Smith. When is it the right time to talk to your child about their disability? And how should you do it? Disability activist Caroline Casey and Woman’s Hour listener, Kate who has three children with different disabilities discuss their experiences. And Spring fashion has landed and colour is back. How to wear lilac and yellow? Lisa Armstrong and Basma Khalifa give sceptics their advice on embracing the new season's colours.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Women's Hour podcast for Thursday the 21st of March. In today's programme, women and motorsport. David Coulthard announced the W Series exclusively for women. Will it provide opportunities for women to excel on the track or simply emphasise their segregation from Formula One? Discussing disability, what does a child who is disabled need to know about their condition and what it will mean for their future?

And spring fashion, as the season changes, will it be yellow, gold, purple or mauve? And who decides what colours are in and what's out? As you may have heard in the news, the Prime Minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern, has announced a ban on all military-style semi-automatic guns and assault rifles following the carnage in the Christchurch mosque a week ago, when 50 people were killed by a solitary terrorist. Her response to the atrocity has been admired across the world. She's been warm, empathetic, calm, clear and compassionate. And her decision on gun control has been immediate, in a country where hunting is a popular pastime. Well, social media has been alive with suggestions

that she's demonstrated a female kind of politics. Others have said her authenticity is an example of a style to which politicians of both sexes aspire. Do women leaders do things differently? Well, Anne McElvoy is a senior editor at The Economist. Ayesha Hazarika is a journalist, comedian and former special advisor to Harriet Harman and Ed Miliband. Why does she think Jacinda Ardern has been held up as a great woman leader?

I think it's because she's been very authentic and what she has done is obviously very true to her character. It's not been a struggle to do it. And she's shown both, as you say, humanity and warmth and kindness, but also steel and clarity. She said the M word straight away. She talked about the Muslim community. She named what this was. She said it was far-right terrorism. She went straight in to the ban. And I think sometimes when we talk about female leadership, there's a sort of cliche that it has to all be soft and gentle and sort of hugging it out with people. She's done that, but there can also be real strength in female leadership.

And I think at a time when you look across the world and we have the rise of the strong man, the sort of autocratic, tough-talking, macho strong man, she has actually shown that you can be warm, you can show love to people, but you can also be very, very strong and powerful. And I know you've met her. How much would you say gender enters into her thinking about leadership style? Well, I think that she exudes a kind of empathy

that Ayesha describes very well. I think she would see it as her character, whether she'd necessarily see it as because she's a woman, I simply don't know. She's centre-left, so you'd expect she's probably a bit feminist. But I think it's also not always the case that it is to do with gender. And we sometimes forget now, particularly when we're in a world where we've got sort of strong men versus sensible, centrist women

who parade themselves as such, whether it's Angela Merkel or her likely successor, Anne of Greater Cairn, Karen Bauer, or Jacinda Ardern at the slightly more empathetic, perhaps, end of the spectrum, that these were roles that men have carried out. In the past, Bill Clinton was thought to be extremely empathetic. In his time, he was always very good when there was a crisis. He would get tears in his eyes.

He would open his arms. So I suppose I'm suggesting that I have a little hesitation to say, well, these are great characteristics, because women have them primarily. I just think the way that the world has gone and the way our politics has gone, the divide is much sharper. That said, of course, she was very impressive. And I think she is just someone who likes the close experience. When I met Jacinda Ardern, I noticed within minutes, really, she's looked on your eyes, she's talking to you as if you were her old best friend.

It's a very, very old trick, but not many people can carry it off with conviction. Ayesha, what would you say all the praise she's received signifies? Is it about her or is it about the times we're living in? I think it's a bit of both. I think she has risen to the occasion and I think her clarity I think is one of the reasons that people have been so positive about her because I even noticed when for example our own foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt released his statement and of course you know Donald Trump it was almost like a sort

of natural disaster had happened in the air. Our thoughts and feelings got to the people of Christchurch. There was nothing saying this was a horrible kind of terrorist attack on Muslim people. So she cut through all of that. And I think that was quite a shock for people because we haven't really had a prominent leader since 9-11 who has said, you know what, I'm going to treat the Muslim community like they are human beings, like they're one of us. In fact, she said, you are us. And I think

for a lot of leaders, the Muslim community, and this is a very sort of sensitive issue, they've treated the community as something to sort of keep at arm's length. And she's the first leader publicly who put an arm around the Muslim community. And in a way, what the terrorist wanted is probably a strongman approach because extremism feasts on division. And if political leaders sow division, but she love bombed everybody. And I think that's been the antidote to the horror of the situation. I mean, we shouldn't forget that she is actually in a coalition with quite a very conservative party. So what she's doing is often kind of, in this particular case,

I'm sure she wasn't thinking, well, I've got to balance this out and I'll do something different in the next spending round. But I would only point out that sometimes when we give that kind of credibility or that praise to someone, it only works if they can make their coalitions work. And that also means that they sometimes have to trade away some of their values. So you can't only indulge whatever your particular view is. I think Angela Merkel's been very good at that. It's possibly getting towards the end of the line of that style of running Germany, but she's been very, very good sometimes at saying, I will do my empathetic best on one side of the political balance sheet,

but I'm also going to have to bring in considerations from the other end that you do need to be able to trade. There does seem to be something of a contrast between Arden and leaders of an older generation, such as, let's say, Theresa May or Angela Merkel. Is it personal, cultural, generational, or a combination of the three? Oh, that's a really interesting point to think about now that you put it to me, that the female leaders that I often covered in the early part of my career as a political journalist, I think whether they were on the left or on the right, had something of a Thatcher complex.

I think more than many wanted to acknowledge, she set the tone and the handbagging and the, I'm in a man's world, I have to be tougher than them and I have to show that I am the power jacket, etc. And I think what happened subsequently was a generation who had their own views on Thatcher and Thatcherism, but they didn't feel so tied to it. They could evolve a way of speaking that was more off the cuff. They didn't feel they would be judged perhaps as weak so readily. And I think Jacinda Ardern is absolutely of that generation

in her delivery, in her clarity. She's not really trying to look like the old kind of power frow. I do think that has changed. And we see it also, I'd just like to throw in the fact that there are women in powerful positions, perhaps in countries whose politics, whose human rights record, whose authoritarianism is really present as well. You know, it's not only like women only run the good stuff.

And I'm thinking of someone who I personally think is a fantastically good politician and communicator, Anna Brunabic in Serbia, whether she should be putting herself at the service of the regime that she's in, which is sort of toughening. And I think, you know, on the human rights score, is not in a good place. It's very questionable. She also communicates in this very open, generationally different manner. It's just I still have some doubts about the politics. I think you can't just say because of somebody's gender

they're going to be a good leader or a soft leader or do the right thing for women. There's plenty of women that argue that Margaret Thatcher didn't exactly leave a feminist legacy. And I think to go back to Anne's earlier point, sometimes men can be fantastic in this situation. Barack Obama was famed for his ability to reach out to people and to emote. And let's be honest, we have a female prime minister right now,

Theresa May, who is not famed for her ability to reach out and have emotional awareness. I mean, if you compare Jacinda Ardern's response to this to Theresa May's reaction to the Grenfell situation as well, I think what it comes down to is authenticity. You cannot force yourself as a political leader. And having been an advisor behind the scene, the worst thing to do is to try and persuade somebody to fake emotions at times like this. You have to do what comes naturally to you and your authenticity makes you a strong leader.

I think in this particular instance, she is emotionally equipped to be this way. But do we allow someone like Theresa May to be herself? I mean, putting aside pros, cons, you know, where are we with this week? Do we allow women perhaps to be as stiff, just a sort of podium focused politician? And I was thinking about Theresa May last night, not so much what she was saying, but that sort of shot when she turned and walked away. it was almost like a hitchcock framing of this sort of black suit going going away and i just thought gosh that felt very harsh to me then i checked myself and thought but if that was a man would i have just thought well he came out and said what he had to say and then he went away again i think it's i think they have a double standard i'm not sure but i think it depends on how well they're doing we don't want this to turn into a brexit thing but take angela merkel she's never been

seen as a particularly sort of warm person, but because of her record and actually what she's done and her consistency, her kind of slightly dour, I'm in my pantsuit and I've sort of got a kind of, you know, I'm not a very warm person. Well, really, because a lot of Germans didn't think that when they voted in large numbers against her

and for the far right. But in terms of her trajectory as a leader for a long, long time, she has earned people's respect because of how she's been. And so in a way, the fact that she's not particularly warm and hugs it out with people,

you have to earn it. One last question, Anne. 40 years ago, yes, 40 years ago, we were asking, can a woman hold the top job in this country? On the evidence, what difference would you say the sex of the leader makes to the decisions they make? Perhaps less than I would have thought previously.

I think as we've discussed the style, the way of communicating, the way of presenting yourself and possibly also the way to the point about Angela Merkel being a long stay leader of preserving yourself. You can sometimes perhaps keep your trajectory in a different way. People get used to you in the way that they get the mootie, the mother figure. But does it affect decisions? I think possibly less so than many people started out by thinking.

And I think that's right. We need lots of kinds of female leader. I think, again, it really depends on the person. I think it depends on the political tradition you come from, because certainly myself coming from the left and as a feminist, I suppose that the mantra we would say is a woman accruing power. It's not just accruing power for yourself. It's what you do with that power and do

you use your power and your platform to make the lives of other women better but that I think comes down to your own politics. Ayesha Hazarika and McElvoy we could sit here discussing this all day thank you both very much indeed for being with us this morning. Now correct correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will, but I don't think I can ever remember seeing a woman competing in any of the Formula One motor races I've watched. Although in 1980 Desiree Wilson won a race

at Brands Hat. It is apparently for this reason that David Coulthard and his team decided to set up something called the W Series, exclusively for women, to give them the opportunity to compete. Well, is it a good idea to split the sport down gender lines, or could it be that racing cars, like racing horses, remember Bryony Frost,

is something men and women can do equally well if given the chance. Well, Poppy Mackenzie Smith is a journalist, Jamie Chadwick is a racing driver who's qualified for the W Series, and Catherine Bond-Muir is the series chief executive. Catherine, how did the W Series actually come about? Well, it came about when I was on maternity leave actually Jenny. I took a couple of years off because I had a baby at 45 and I was trying to think about what I was going to do because I decided I wanted to work again and at that point I had a coffee with a couple of friends of mine who were involved in motorsport and they thought they said to me what about a women's series and I thought that's a great idea.

I did some research into it and I thought, that's a terrible idea because men and women can compete equally. And then I did more research into it and I realised that women are massively underrepresented in the sport. It's been 43 years since a woman has driven in Formula One. Out of the 900 drivers in Formula One, only two have been women. And so I believe that something had to change. And actually, if you look at the numbers of women who are driving in single-seater series all over the world, the trend was actually year on year fewer women were

driving. Jamie, how did you get involved in motorsport in the first place? Yeah, so I fell into motorsport completely by accident. I always had an interest in sport, in motorsport in the first place yeah so i fell into motorsport completely by accident um i always had an interest in sport but motorsport was never something that you know my parents did or you know family members before that were involved in it was purely by coincidence my older brother went go-karting and really paved the path for me to sort of follow him into it and yeah i quite quickly got the racing bug at the age of 11 or 12, completely oblivious to how male-dominated it was. I caught the bug and it's been that story ever since. Why were you drawn to the W Series?

For me, I think it goes in a bit deeper than that. I've been racing now. I'm 20 now, so I've been racing all the way up in mixed levels. I always want to race against the men. I know it's levels and I always want to race against the men. I know it's possible. I always want to race at the top level of motorsport but to compete in motorsport is very financially tough and you need a huge amount of backing to make it

and in single-seaters where I'm at at the moment in British Formula 3, the next step costs a huge amount of money and actually it wasn't looking necessarily viable without an opportunity like the W Series. So I see it really as a platform or a stepping stone to springboard me hopefully into the higher levels. Poppy, why are there so few women in motorsport? Is it the money? I think the money is of course a huge issue. Toto Wolff, who's the principal of the

Mercedes team, he claimed the other day that it costs about eight million dollars to take a driver from karting up to F1 level. So that is a prohibitive amount of money for anyone but in terms of just women i think the motorsport uk recently uh confirmed that only five percent of racing license holders in uh uk are women so i think that indicates and this is just getting a racing license which is expensive but not prohibitive it might just indicate that women are fundamentally less interested in motorsport, which is not an inherently bad thing. I think it's frustrating this increasingly didactic rhetoric, which is slightly patronising, that women aren't getting into motorsport

because they don't know how or they're intimidated by it. There is the reason that perhaps we're just not as interested in it, and that's not inherently negative. I don't think we need to be constantly encouraged to take part in things that men are doing too. If we want to, we will. People like Jamie are proving that. Catherine, not interested?

Well, the statistics on television don't bear that argument out. I think about 36% of the audience for Formula One in Europe is female. And extraordinarily, in some countries in Asia, there are more women watch Formula One than men. How are you funded then? I mean, how are you going to enable somebody like Poppy to get to Formula One? Well, we're a business, so we have a business plan and we're funded by investors. And going forward, once we have a successful championship this year, we expect to be getting sponsorship in in year two and year three. I mean, $8 million is a lot to get her all that way. Well, it is a huge amount of money, but W Series is going to be a springboard.

We're paying all of the expenses for the drivers at our level, and we are going to be giving them a single-seater motor racing series. And so we're giving all of those drivers a huge amount of racing experience that we hope will help them propel them go forward into Formula 2 and hopefully Formula 1. What's it like, Jamie, to compete only with other women? I don't know yet. I've never done it. So that's going to be a whole new experience potentially. So for me, I've only ever raced against, you know, maybe one or two females at a time on a grid. And that's often on a grid of 20 to 30 drivers. So, yeah, it's going to be a different challenge, I guess.

For me, it's very much once the helmet's on, and it's very cliche to say, but once the helmet's on and you're in a car, it doesn't matter who it is, you know, you want to beat them. It doesn't matter who that individual is. Like in any sport, I guess, that competitive nature or that competitive drive in you is you know you want to beat them it doesn't matter who that individual is like in any sport i guess that competitive nature or that competitive driving you you know you want to beat them and you want to do the best as possible so i don't think that will change in terms of the w series the w series offers an opportunity to race in some great cars at some great circuits and i

think from a learning opportunity and from a driving point of view, yeah, that's everything any driver looks for. Polly, you did write an article claiming the W Series is sexist. Do you actually use that word? Why? I think it's sexist because it's making the assumption that women need special treatment to get ahead in motor racing. The W Series, it's not plucking unknown drivers out of nowhere and it is giving them a great opportunity, but people like Jamie and lots of the other ladies who are taking part

are already incredibly successful drivers in their own right. To then assume that they need special 30-minute races and are only allowed to compete against other women in this series, to me, says that you're not good enough to be racing against the men yet. Here's a step up, we'll give you a helping hand, which all the very successful female racing drivers who are already out there, indeed across all motorsport, not just single-seaters and rallying and autosolo and autocross,

they're already making these great strides, but, you know, off their own back. They don't need this special helping hand, I feel, and that's why I feel it's a sexist and regressive step back for motorsport, which is famously inclusive. Catherine, how do you respond to accusations of sexism, segregation, helping hand? Well, I can't see that we're segregating our drivers at all because we're encouraging them to race this year

in as many other championships as they can against the men and, as I say, we're a springboard in order to make female drivers race better against the men and as I say we're a springboard in order to make female drivers race better against the men. What we are is an artificial platform to help women. It may be sexist but I prefer to say it's positive discrimination. How would you get more women involved Poppy? I think it's something which needs to be addressed at the very very beginning of motorsport you As Jamie will testify, she's only 20 and has been racing for so many years already. She started at a young age. I think it's not about creating yet another gilded foothold for well-established, successful drivers to get further into Formula One. I think it's about, if we need to, encouraging women at a younger age, at seven, eight, going to karting opportunities,

taking on those early opportunities to talk about motorsport. But again, I don't think it's something that necessarily needs to be encouraged. If there are as many female Formula One fans as there appear to be out there, then why aren't they getting in the cars? Perhaps they just aren't interested. Jamie, what is actually your ambition? So for me, my ambition is to be a world champion and race at the top level of motorsport and race in Formula One and I guess to sort of respond a little bit to Poppy's point I do agree that you definitely need more girls in at grassroots

in karting you see very few but also you need more girls at the top level competing in Formula One and if it is possible if it is possible for women to race alongside men like in horse racing I said with Bryony Frost then you know if no one of this 30 36 percent of women that watch Formula One don't see any females on the grid naturally they're not going to think that um you know it's possible so I think we need more women at the top but also yeah obviously coming through at grassroots and also importantly um coming on from poppy's comment about how how much money you need to get through all the different levels of motorsport you need to get sponsorship and backing and i think the the issue is that the sponsors are looking at the young drivers and what they really want to do is sponsor the next young lewis hamilton and because there's

no pathway into formula One for a woman, they're not going to believe that Jane Hamilton, for example, can get there. So Catherine, the series begins in May. How soon will we see a woman competing against Lewis Hamilton? It's impossible to make any sort of prediction like that I mean that is our ultimate aim but really what we want to do is we want to get more women racers we want to get more women mechanics and engineers we want to get more women into the whole environment of motorsport

Catherine Bond, Muir, Poppy McKenzie-Smith, Jamie Chadwick thank you all very much indeed for being with us and we would like to hear from you on this question. What do you think of motorsport? Do you love it or do you hate it? Thank you all very much. Thank you. Now still to come in today's programme, Spring Fashion.

As the season begins to change, what will it be? Yellow, gold, purple or mauve? And who decides what is in and what is out? We've episode nine of A Passage to India. And in a couple of weeks, by the way, I'll be talking to Virginia Nicholson about her book, How Was It For You? Women, Sex, Love and Power in the 1960s.

And we'd like to hear from you. How was the era of sex, drugs and rock and roll for you? Was it all sexual revolution and peace and love or was the love not so free as it's been portrayed? Do let us know your experiences. You can tweet or email and of course we won't use your name if you don't want us to. Now parents who have a child with a disability have a dilemma. Do you explain to the child what limitations the disability might impose and maybe send them to a school specially qualified to teach them?

Or do you stay quiet about it, send the child to a mainstream school and hope they won't face any setbacks? Well, lots of you responded when we asked you about your experiences. I grew up with an older disabled sister who was raised not to think of herself as disabled. My parents wanted to make her strong, but in reality, this family taboo meant she suffered in silence and didn't get the emotional support she needed.

She also channelled all of her bitterness towards me. I have a young baby daughter with a genetic disorder. We're lucky as there is a real spectrum with her condition and it seems to be developing well. She has various interventions from physiotherapists, speech therapists and paediatricians but generally speaking you'd have no idea she had any condition aside from the fact she's a bit behind with some of her milestones. As she grows older she might be susceptible to some issues such as learning difficulties and psychiatric disorders but we'll have to wait and see. I already think a lot about telling her about her condition when she's older. We are open about

the condition with close friends and family but I'm wary not to tell the world as this is private information about her. When the time is right we will need to have a conversation with her as I think if she does struggle with certain things in the future it will be important for her to know why. I have no idea what age will be appropriate for this though. I'm 45 and have an older brother. A few years ago we were chatting and he admitted to me that he had just found out that he had had cerebral palsy. I had known this for years, but it turned out that my parents had never told him.

They had done this for what I am sure they thought were good reasons, but it resulted in him getting to the age of 40, thinking he wasn't trying hard enough. This has had a massive effect on his confidence. It has also affected me because he, for excellent and understandable reasons, got more attention when we were growing up, but the reasons were never explained. It is vital that we talk to our children about disability, not just so the stigma and mystery is removed from it, but also for their own self-worth. Well, I'm joined from York by Kate,

who has five children and three of them have disabilities, and by Caroline Casey, who is legally blind because of ocular albinism. Her parents didn't discuss it and she only found out about her condition when she was 17. Caroline, what's the impact of your disability? Well, for here, for me to say I can't see you, I have about two feet vision, and it's like wearing glasses with Vaseline over them.

And I only found out when I was 17 years old, and it wasn't by mistake. My parents brought me up to believe I was sighted. Why did your parents never discuss it? I was quite emotional listening to those to the other listeners. It just shows how complicated this

is and there's not one size that fits all. And listening to the siblings as well, it's really it's very emotional and I don't think any of us have one answer for anybody. But my parents really believed that society is what limits.

It's society that every single one of us is equally valuable and unique. They believed the label of disability would be limiting. And I think what they wanted for me was to have expectations.

They didn't not tell me for reasons of shame or taboo. It was the opposite. It was to build a sense of strength around me and not to overprotect me. And I also had a sister who was ocular albinism younger than I am. And they talked about her low vision. So we had a very interesting dynamic in our family.

They had a different strategy for different children. How did you find out about it? I mean, it is a very unusual story because I was just listening to your last speaker. I wanted to be a motorbike racer and to race cars. And I wanted to be a cowgirl in Mowgli from the Jungle Book. And, you know, it's the strangest story, but my father gave me a driving lesson for my 17th birthday.

And I was joining my sister, as I'd done all my life, to see an eye specialist. And I just thought I was just accompanying her so that she wouldn't feel too different. And that's when I found out, because the eye specialist said, oh said oh it's your 17th birthday what are you going to do and I said well I'm going off to get my driving license and he was like indeed so yes that was the day that I thought maybe I should have been given a puppy for my 17th birthday not a driving lesson. Let's bring in in Kate Kate, your oldest is 14. What disability does he have? Good morning. He has just recently had a diagnosis of Asperger's, which is another way of describing the autism spectrum condition, but it's a particular type, so he's high-functioning. And there's lots of reasons why we waited till this stage,

but in some ways it's quite a late diagnosis at this age. Why did you wait? Because 14 is quite old to begin to think about a diagnosis. One of the reasons is that we weren't totally sure what was going on and we actually just didn't feel a need to do anything about the way that we were parenting him seemed to be working okay he was functioning very well he was a very happy boy for the most part and it wasn't actually until he got to kind of age 10, 11 that kind of pre-puberty stage where things started becoming

much more challenging for him. And some of the things that had always been maybe little quirks or just slightly different became much bigger issues, particularly around some of the sensory things. We had always had a suspicion that he may well be on the autistic spectrum. He's our third child and we certainly had to parent him quite differently to how we'd parented our older two children. But it wasn't until things started being much more challenging for him and also for us in terms of how we parented him and until he started actually asking questions.

So he started saying, why am I different? Why do I react differently to certain things? Why do I find it difficult to clothes shop, etc? Lots of things. And as I said, you have two other children who have disabilities. How now do you discuss disability within the family? Well our younger two children we've adopted them and my older three children are birth children and my youngest child has very complex needs and a lot of challenges. She has quadriplegic cerebral palsy and epilepsy. She's tube fed, non-verbal, full-time wheelchair user, can't sit up. And so in some ways, her disability is much more obvious, much more easy to discuss. And our whole family has learned an incredible amount about disability. And it's adopting has been one of the best things we've ever done,

and particularly in terms of opening our children's eyes to disability and to what children can achieve and who they are. She doesn't speak very much, but she understands absolutely loads, and people make these vast assumptions when they see a child like our five-year-old, which just aren't true. And so we've all learned so much about other people that we now come across and our seven-year-old has a really rare chromosome deletion it's so rare it doesn't have a name and that actually causes a few minor challenges for her and but much more minor than we were led to believe when she first came to us and that's in a way harder to discuss because do we tell her don't

we tell her you know at what point do we um start discussing that and actually just very recently that has become part of our discussion with her in terms of her understanding herself i mean i certainly find that the more i've learned about myself as i've got older the easier it's become for me to thrive as a human being and i I actually see that for my children as well, that the more that we can explain to them about who they are, where they've come from, what makes them tick, the way we can help them explore that will hopefully help them to thrive. And so we've started explaining to her, to our seven-year-old, why she gets a bit more tired than her friends. She's hypermobile, so she calls it wobbly ankles, but why she can't maybe walk as far and why she doesn't sleep as well. She has a bit more tired than her friends. She's hypermobile, so she calls it wobbly ankles. But why she can't maybe walk as far,

why she doesn't sleep as well. She has a sleep disorder and she takes medicine for that. And she started asking, why do I take this medicine? But always at an age appropriate and very much led by her, but not a taboo, not a hidden embarrassing thing. So Caroline, on balance, might it have been beneficial to you not to have had it discussed until you were 17?

You know, I don't know. I was just listening to Kate. I think so many things what she is saying is that there's an individual approach for each individual child and I think that's looking at the uniqueness of us as humans. One of the reasons, I just want to be really clear, one of the things that I think is very difficult for parents who have a child with disability is looking at the world that they're going to go into. And I think that's the taboo

issue because we're not seeing disability. Disability is part of the human condition. We shouldn't be defined by it. And a lot of the work that I'm doing is preparing through the Valuable 500 the business world welcoming. And I think if the business world welcomes and sees the value of people with disabilities, then the taboo of it or society sees this to talk about it, it's just about being human. Therefore

these conversations I hope won't have to happen. Because the more we see people with disabilities out in the world just being human beings, doing what they do, whatever whatever way they can reaching their potential then I hope this conversation is easier for parents. Just finally on on the question of the right to be informed in some cases does a child not have a right to have the information about themselves? I mean, that's an absolutely great question. I think... So I'm not a parent, and I need to disclose that.

So it's very difficult for me to sit here as a non-parent. But if I had a child who was like me now, I would tell them. But I wouldn't make it a thing that it's a big... It's part of being the person they want to be I love the way hearing Kate speaking

I think I would because I think we should be proud about it like we talk about gay pride what about being proud about being different wouldn't that be

an extraordinary thing to be so yeah Caroline Casey and Kate Middleton thank you both very much indeed for being with us and I will just mention that there are links on the Women's Hour website to organisations that might be able to help with advice if you need it.

Thank you both very much. Now, it's that time of year when springtime comes, the weather is set to improve. You start preparing to pack away the winter woolies and think about something new and cheery. So what will you go for? Well the range of colours in the newspapers goes from yellow through apricot and orange to mauve purple and pale blue. Who decides what will be on trend and what suits who? Well Vazma Khalifa is a fashion stylist. Lisa Armstrong is head of fashion at The Telegraph, wearing mauve, I would say.

And Vazma, white, is it? I didn't get the memo. OK, you didn't come in yellow, but that's fine. Lisa's on trend. Who, Lisa, actually decides what the colour of the season will be? Well, I think consumers decide it in the end. I mean, this thing about yellow, it's so difficult to wear and the stores keep putting it in

and then it ends up on the sale rails. What a surprise. Do you think Amal Clooney might have had something to do with that? I think actually, that's a very good point, Jane. I think that was a turning point for it. Because actually recently, when I've been checking with retailers, yellow has been doing well. In fashion stores and online, it's been doing well.

And I think Amal's turn in... God, that was the hardest yellow of all to wear, wasn't it? Top to toe yellow. Top to toe. That was banana yellow, wasn't it? And I think then... And then the Duchess of Cambridge wore... I think she wore it after Amal.

Yes, she did. And, yes, I think then women thought, oh, I'll give it a go. I mean, it's a very uplifting colour. I will not have it within a million miles of my skin. So funny, because I will. You would wear it? Yeah, I do wear yellow.

Look how different it is. I think it is a skin tone thing as well. Amal is obviously of a darker skin complexion, and I think actually it suits kind of different tones of skin. I personally, in the summer summer would never go to purple but I would definitely go to yellow. I do have yellow pieces for summer. So what at the moment

are the rules, Basma, when it comes to fashion? What's in and what's definitely out? What would people look at you and say, oh goodness, you're old fashioned. It's so funny because I don't think that exists anymore. I don't think what's in and what's out

is really, I think there's a what's in which is obviously purple yellow poppy colors but I don't think there's necessarily a what's out because if those two colors don't work for you if you wear blue someone's not gonna be mad at you and be like you're out of season I think fashion's become so transactional now that I don't think it matters as much about what's in and what's out I think it's about suiting it to yourself and what works for your personality. I wear brighter colours because it makes me happier. So what does wearing a block of bold colour say about the wearer, would you say? I mean, it's a funny one. I always say to people, fashion matters so much because it's what you're saying to the world before you've opened your mouth. And I think if you're wearing a bright

colour, it almost just exudes positivity and just like happiness. I think, you're wearing a bright colour it almost just exudes positivity and just like happiness I think there's you know people need to we spend the whole winter in grey and navy and black and brown that it's quite nice just you know say hey the spring's here So as I said Lisa you are in mauve Lilac or lavender I can't decide Lilac or lavender, I can't decide. Lilac or lavender, okay.

Neither can I, actually. But, you know, there you go. Mauve is the hardest one to pronounce. I dyed this, Jenny. I dyed it. You dyed it? I did. I mean, I've always loved, I can't say the brand, can I?

We all know who it is. And I've always loved doing it, dyeing stuff. And I went to see the Phantom Thread with Daniel Day-Lewis last year, where he plays a 50s couturier, and he was wearing a mauve slash lilac slash lavender shirt, with tweed, I think, and he looked amazing. So I rushed home and thought, what have I got in my wardrobe I can dye? And here it is.

And would you go deeper to the dark purple or mix it with yellow, which some of them, some of the things I've seen in the papers are purple with yellow on them. I think you can mix anything. As I said, I don't wear yellow because I'm quite yellow tinged. So that's not doesn't work on me. And I don't wear purple because when I was 18, I for some reason, I decided my whole wardrobe was going to be purple and I can't look at that colour now. But that's the point about colour. People have very visceral reactions to it. And when you wear a colour that looks good on you, people really respond, don't they? It just gives them a little boost, I think.

So you can dye things. You can dye things and it's so easy. I lived my teens in tie dye, because not deliberately, all my dyeing efforts were very haphazard. But now, people, it is foolproof. I love it. Sustainable as well. But how much should people at this time of year

be looking for investment pieces? Because we're all very concerned about not being disposable and overspending and wasting things is this the time of year to invest in things or should it be disposable at this time no nothing should be disposable sorry I know I know I definitely agree with you I don't think anything should be disposable my whole wardrobe is pretty much things I've owned for over five years. I'll buy one or two extra pieces, new pieces every season. But I actually think that whole run of refreshing your entire wardrobe doesn't really make sense anymore. I don't think it does anything for the environment. It does anything for your purse. I actually think now the fact that you can dye clothes that you've

already owned is actually a bit more of a sustainable way of doing things. I don't think we need to keep spending in order to update our wardrobes. So if you were going to say, Lisa, this is the one thing that would be a really good idea for you to buy this season, what would it be? Well, it's tricky. I mean, I love jackets and tailoring because I think a really good jacket just pulls everything together. And it does happen to be particularly fashionable at the moment, but it's something that's never going to go completely out of style. I know that some women don't like wearing tailoring because they feel too boxy in it, but there is a jacket out there for every shape

and it really pulls you together, doesn't it? Yeah, I completely agree with you. Jackets are my big sort of go-to because Because in the end, we live in the UK, you're pretty much going to have to wear a jacket 24-7 if not a coat. So you might as well, that number might as well be a strong number because it is actually something that you will literally wear all the time. So with the trends that they are at the moment, what might you find in the shop that would be a good jacket to buy?

What would it look like? I think blazers. So not so much the cropped chanel style jacket um but but just like a a blazer it could be double-breasted single-breasted um if you're short like i am they're not too long women always sort of tend to think i'll cover my thighs and bum with one but that makes your legs look shorter you want it really halfway down your bum yeah um and not oversized is very fashionable but it most women can't wear it i can't wear oversized i look like i look like a child

you can always turn the sleeves up oh yeah but it's more than that jen is the whole thing has to be much more fitted i was talking to basma khalifa Lisa Armstrong. On the question of do women do leadership differently, we had a lot of response. This one who describes himself as a male fan of Woman's Hour, Richard in Huddersfield said, words and conduct over this terrible, sickening attack. But how far have we fallen in the Western world when it is refreshing and admirable when someone says what something actually is, acts decisively and brings a nation, except for the racists, together? I see this empathy and togetherness every day around me, but not in our political leaders or in or on our media. Megan said, so proud to be a New Zealand woman and that the world is seeing what strong female leadership should look like at a time when our own PM is adopting the do what you're told and shut up model.

Then on motorsport, Eduardo said, although very unrepresented, there have been several women in Formula One. In American car racing, like NASCAR and Indy, women are very present. And in fact, a few years ago, Danica Patrick won an IndyCar race for the first time for women to win such a race.

I do think women should be more present in car racing and can well compete together with men. Segregating the genders won't do any good for women in the sport. Alex said, I think the series is a great idea. It will encourage women to participate. It will allow girls to see that this is a sport they can participate in. Talent spotters can then take the best drivers into their talent programmes. I can see no reason for a woman not to be a Formula One world champion other than the accessibility. Some of the best drivers may have never tried motorsport because it's not been

presented to them as an opportunity and this series could start to change that perception and conversation with young girls. Burdish said, Got to be one of the most pointless sports ever invented, and pollutes the planet. Sharon said, Just wanted to say that I enjoy watching Rugby Union, but I wouldn't want to do it.

So the argument about women watching Formula One so they would want to do it is rubbish. I'm not against this as I believe it could raise the profile but I also have the same concerns about it being sexist. Richard said this is where feminism falls flat on its face just because a few hyphenated toffs do it. If women aren't interested then they won't. Like sailing 90% of women get seasick. You fill in the rest. And then Trish said, I find it astonishing that you spend time trying to encourage more women into motor racing when surely you should be discouraging any person of any gender not to support a sport which uses petrol or diesel. The planet is facing a near future climate catastrophe and you simply ignore this fact.

The same applies to your item on fashion and which colours we should all be wearing. The fashion industry is one of the worst offenders, using up a tremendous amount of the world's resources. And for what? And then on telling a child about disability, Mary said, I have an 11-year-old granddaughter with autism diagnosed at the age of three. And then on telling a child about disability, Mary said, I have an 11-year-old granddaughter with autism diagnosed at the age of three. She has some learning difficulty. We had never told or not told her.

Towards the end of last year, she was looking at some posts with my daughter, her mother, on my daughter's phone when something came up about autism. My granddaughter suddenly asked, have I got autism? After a few moments of silence, my daughter told her, yes. Then went to the NAS website to explain more to her. She recognised so many of the signs of autism in herself. She'd obviously realised that in some ways she is different from other children and it seems she's quite relieved to have some answers. She's quite open now.

If she doesn't understand something, she'll say, can you explain that again? I don't understand because of my autism. Marion said, I'm just listening to your discussion on whether or not to tell a child that they have a disability with incredulity. I'm an autistic woman diagnosed at the age of 72. The relief of finally knowing why I'm different and why I've had so many problems is wonderful. I wish I'd known. Now Jane will be here tomorrow when she'll speak to the director Carol Morley

about her new film, Out of Blue. It's a crime thriller adapted from Martin Amis' Night Train. So join Jane tomorrow morning at two minutes past ten, if you can, from me for today. Bye-bye. Beyond Today is the daily podcast from Radio 4. It asks one big question about one big story in the news and beyond. Just how big is Netflix? Why are young people getting lost in the system?

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