Woman's Hour - Jacqueline Wilson, Women and Journalism, Pensions Campaign and Alcohol Marketing

Episode Date: September 17, 2020

Children’s author Jacqueline Wilson joins tells us about her new book Love Frankie about a teenager falling in love for the first time. Frankie lives with her two sisters and her recently divorced mum who is seriously ill with MS and is being bullied by a girl called Sally and her gang at school. But eventually the two girls strike up a friendship and as they spend more time together, Frankie starts to develop stronger feelings for Sally. Jacqueline tells Jenni why, having written over a hundred books, this is the first she has written about same sex relationships following her decision to reveal that she herself was gay earlier this year.A report by Women in Journalism shows that there is still a shocking lack of diversity among our media. The report revealed that no UK newspaper had a front page story by a Black reporter in the week studied, and out of 174 front page bylines, just two were written by BAME women. Out of a total of 723 radio reporter appearances, just 4 were by Black women and when non-white expert guests were asked to appear on radio and TV news, it was often to support coverage related to race. We discuss how this lack of diversity impacts the news that is covered and also what this means for women's careers as journalists. Campaigners affected by the state pension age being changed from 60 to 66 for women have lost their appeal against a High Court ruling. Senior judges unanimously dismissed the appeal led by Julie Delve and Karen Glynn, backed by the campaign group BackTo60. They said despite having sympathy for the women involved, it was not a case of unlawful discrimination under EU and human rights laws and that the changes were a "long-overdue move towards gender equality". Around 3.8 million women have been affected by raising the state pension age and Unison, the UK's largest trade union, said doing so with "next to no notice" has had a calamitous effect on the retirement plans of a generation of women. Jenni speaks to Joanne Welch the director of BackTo60 to find out what options are available to them now. Have you ever thought about the way that alcohol is marketed when it comes to women? Do you find it patronising or fun? A growing number of marketing companies and campaigns are using the colour pink, glitter and the slogan ‘female empowerment’ to sell alcoholic beverages. Does it work? Carol Emslie is a Professor of substance use and misuse at the School of Health and Life Sciences at Glasgow Caledonian University. Kate Baily is a podcast host and the co-author of Love Yourself Sober – a self-care guide to alcohol-free living for busy mothers and Dr Athanasia Daskalopoulou is a Lecturer in Marketing at the University of Liverpool Management School.Producer: Clare Walker

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Jenny Murray welcoming you to the Woman's Hour podcast for the 17th of September 2020. Good morning. The campaign group Back260 has lost its appeal for women born in the 1950s to have the pensions they expected to receive restored. What options are available to them now? Women in journalism have produced a report showing a lack of diversity in the media. What does a majority of the male, pale and posh say about what news is covered and the careers of female journalists? And the sale of alcohol to women.

Why has advertising become pink and glittery? With the slogan, female empowerment. Dame Jacqueline Wilson is one of our most popular writers for children and young people, with 111 books to her name. She's a former children's laureate, and she's often tackled themes such as divorce and adoption, which were considered controversial at the time. Her latest publication, Love Frankie, is about Frankie, who lives with her two sisters, her mother and a dog called Bear.

Her mother has been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. And the day before this extract, she had fallen over outside the school. They were all chiming in, but it was Sally Mack singing when I burst through the door. Ten wine bottles hanging on the wall, ten wine bottles hanging on the wall, and if Frankie Bennett's mother should accidentally fall, then she's drunk all the bottles hanging on the wall. They were all giggling away but stopped when they saw me. I went straight up to Sally and slapped her

hard across the face. There was a big gasp. Sally rocked on her heels in shock, one side of her face white and the other bright red. For Christ's sake Frankie, she said. Slap her back, Sally, Marnie egged her on. Hey, there's going to be a cat fight, said one of the boys. Fight, fight, fight, they started chanting. Don't you dare slap me around, said Sally. It's not my fault your mum's drunk. She is not a drunk. She couldn't help falling. She's ill, I hissed. Oh yeah, my dad always says he's ill when he's had a few, said Marnie. My mother didn't have a drop to drink. Now shut your stupid faces or you'll all get slapped, I said wildly. Frankie's gone berserk. Look at her eyes. Get out of her way or she'll go for you. Maybe she's been drinking too. They all tittered nervously, acting like they were really scared of me.

But Sally wasn't, though her cheek was still a bright burning red. She came right up to me so we were nose to nose. Don't you dare slap me again, freak, she said. After that, we were deadly enemies. But it's not quite so simple. Frankie falls in love for the first time and it's Sally who becomes the object of her passion. Jacqueline, this is the first time you've written

about a same-sex relationship. Why is it taking you so long? I thought it was about time. I have written about gay characters, but they've been on the kind of periphery of this story. This time I wanted my main narrator to suddenly, much to her surprise, fall in love with this other girl in her class. I've written about girls falling in love with boys several times for my teenage stories. This time I thought, right, let's have a same sex, not relationship, romance. How concerned were you that the publishing industry might be resistant to such a story?

I didn't really think about it, actually. I think times have changed so much I mean when I was young the very idea of writing about a schoolgirl romance was certainly not something you would find in I don't know Enid Blyton and the twins at St. Clair's something like that now I think we're much more open much more understanding about gay relationships. And certainly when I suggested this, there was no problem whatsoever. People said, yes, that sounds good. Yes, OK, go ahead, Jackie. You revealed earlier this year that you've lived with your partner, Trish, for 18 years, I think it is.

Why did you feel now was the time to be open about your own life well I've always been open in all my friends family mere acquaintances work colleagues everybody knew Trish and we've always been totally accepted as a couple but I did realise that when Love Frankie came out people might think you know who are you to write about a gay relationship you don't know about it or just want to know about my private life that is the way of life nowadays and so I thought I would give an interview to somebody on the Guardian and just be completely open about it so that there wouldn't be too much fuss. Because nowadays I think it's not some great standing on a pedestal coming out thing

and it's not kind of my style. Anyway, I'm too old for that sort of thing. But I wanted it to show that it's lovely to have a gay relationship. It's also lovely to have a straight relationship. Let's hope we're in the kind of world where most of us feel that, you know, you take your pick nowadays. Let me just remind you, Jacqueline, that 74 is not old, all right? Thank you very much, Jenny Jenny that's kind of you what what sort of response did you actually get when it was made public um mostly people were completely warm um

feeling very very proud in a way so some of my gay friends said. And you see that the secret of happiness in life is not to be on Twitter too much. I don't think there was, there's certainly, I don't, as far as I'm aware, wasn't a Twitter storm about me or anything like that. But I think nowadays people, particularly if you're older like it's it's no big deal whatsoever so um it's just just people say oh yeah okay and that's it and i think that's the way it should be now frankie is is very open with her family about her feelings for sally how easy was it for you to be open with your family when you were younger? Well, I was in a straight marriage with a guy for many years, so there was no issue involved. I'm one of these sorts of people, I just fall in love with somebody and it doesn't really matter Rwy'n llwyddo gyda rhywun ac nid yw'n bwysig i mi a yw'n ddewr neu'n femaill.

Yn ôl fy nghyd-dreul, roeddwn i'n unig am amser ac yna cyfarwyd â Trish. Roedd hi'n ymddangos yn hyfryd, roedd hi'n y person rwy'n ei hoffi byw y bywyd arall. Roedd fy nheulu'n hyderus iawn ac yn is very fond of Trish. My mum was difficult, but then my mum's always been difficult. She couldn't bear my husband, she couldn't bear any of my friends. And so even though she herself had gay friendships, I mean, not she had gay friendships, my mother, she was still alive, would be very cross if I suggested that.

But she was quite, quite irritating at times. But I got used to that. How important was it to show, as you do in the novel, what a confusing time first teenage love can be? Because Frankie has a lot of interest from boys, even her best friend next door, Sam. Yes. And she's often in a bit of a muddle about it all. Well, I think it is a muddling time

and it sort of creeps up on you unawares and then you are just so it's so exciting it's as if nobody else could ever have had these feelings you go around with your head filled with this person you start sort of chanting their name and yet you're you're frightened that you feel like this you're worried that they don't feel the same way about you. I want to reassure anybody reading the book, gay or straight, it's okay. This is what it feels like. If it doesn't work out, that will be okay. If it does work out, well, good for you. It's just a sort of rite of passage that people go through and certainly people my age if you ask them can

you remember the first time you fell in love there's a twinkle in the eye as people look back because and it's such an intense feeling that Frankie's mother as I've said is very ill with multiple sclerosis why did you want to highlight that particular condition? I think it's a very difficult illness and I have a dear friend who has MS and works on valiantly. Few people would actually know the different things she goes through. It's a difficult illness because some people are very lucky,

they have one little bout of it and then they go into remission and nothing else ever happens. Other people, they have to deal with it getting worse and worse. I am a member of a very good charity, Stop MS lle mae yna holl fath o ymchwil yn digwydd, lle rydyn ni'n ddigwydd yn ystod y steg lle byddant yn gallu gweld y cyfnod cywir o drws neu triniaeth lle gall pobl ddim yn parhau i ddod i'r afael. Rydyn ni'n rhaid gobeithio am y gorau ond mae'n anafus nad yw wedi cael ei ddysgu yn benodol o gwbl ac mae'n un o'r rhai anoddol yna lle na allwch chi edrych yn y dyfodol ac yn gwybod yn siŵr beth fydd yn digwydd ac felly doeddwn i ddim eisiau i unrhyw berson ifanc ddarllen y llyfr a os

oedd ganddyn nhw'n baren neu ffrind cymdeithasol sydd wedi cael Cymru, doeddwn i ddim eisiau bod yn rhywbeth o ddifrydol amdano. Roeddwn i eisiau dangos bod gobeithio ac y gallai aros am bywyd llawer iawn am ddwy hir, os na ddyddiau. Ond roedd yn fy marn i ac roeddwn i eisiau bod Frankie yn y sefyllfa honno lle mae'n anodd iawn i unrhyw blant ac mae hi'n gwbl ffugio, mae nhw'n teulu cymaint, mae hi'n bryderus iawn am ei mam, mae ei oedd ei pharwch yn gwblhau, mae hi'n cael popeth yma yn mynd yn ei meddwl ac yna yn syth mae'r peth ffantastig hwn yn digwydd i ni ac mewn ffordd mae'n ffordd o byw yn ei byd a to her and in a way it's it's a way of living in her world and experiencing a very different sort of life from the ordinary usual humdrum family one just one other point about her she really wants to be a writer and meets up with a friend and mr white in the library to form a writing

group and i wondered how much is that a parallel with your own childhood? I certainly wanted to be a writer. Sadly, there were no Mr Whites in my life and nobody sort of really encouraged me to be a writer. In fact, you know, I was told quite firmly at school that it would be very unlikely that I would ever get published. And the careers in those long ago days seemed to be nursing or teaching, or as an alternative, you got married. It was very limiting. I really just thought privately,

no, I want to be a writer so much. I was lucky I managed to get a job as a very junior journalist up in Scotland with DC Thompsons when I was 17. And so it taught me a great deal. I sometimes wished I'd been able to go on to university, but now I think I've tried my very hardest to educate myself and it's been a great career, it really has. Jacqueline Wilson, I think you went in absolutely the right direction. Thank you very much indeed for being with us this morning. Thank you so much, Jenny.

Now, Women in Journalism has published a report this week showing the results of a study of a week in the British media, newspapers, television and radio, to try and assess how much diversity there was among writers, presenters and the kind of stories that were covered. Not much, it would appear. No UK front-page story was written by a black reporter. Out of 174 front-page bylines, only two were written by women from a black and ethnic minority. On the radio, four black women were reporters

out of 723 contributions. Well, what does this mean for what news is covered and what future do women have as journalists? Well, I'm joined by Amal Wasami, who's a graduate in the MA in Financial Journalism at City University of London. Yasmin Alibai-Brown, who's a graduate in the MA in Financial Journalism at City University of London. Yasmin Alibai-Brown, who's a regular columnist for The Eye and The Evening Standard. And Jane Martinson, Professor of Financial Journalism at City and a columnist at The Guardian. Jane,

why did you think it was important to do this kind of research over a week well it was really because we'd done similar research for women jenny um eight years ago when i was chair we did the first piece of research this similar snapshot it takes a week and it takes all the sort of flagship so front pages of newspapers um you know the sort of prime time news reports, sort of really seeing if you just look at one particular week, what happens. And it was shocking, the lack of any BAME, particularly black voices, actually, and not just the Byland reporters, but 111 people were quoted as experts, and only one black woman was there. And was when jen reed when she was actually made into a statue in bristol so the very heart of the story and i suppose the reason which i

wanted to do this research is it really is a media you know trying to reflect society it seems increasingly that it's not changing is It is still dominated, overwhelmingly dominated, by white, posh men, you know, male, pale and posh. And that has to change because our society is changing. And if the media is going to have a future, it needs to change too. Amal, what response did you have to what was revealed in this research? I had quite... some people were very shocked

in regards to the findings, but others like women of ethnic minorities, some were saying it's not shocking because that's kind of the reality. It's people in the industry, they know that they're not really being represented enough. Do you know what I mean? So it was kind of, you know, I guess if someone like me was black,

a young journalist getting into the industry, you might not be surprised because this is what you see every day in the newspapers and the TV and the radio. Now, Yasmin, I think you were the first person of colour to have a column in a national newspaper. What impact did you have at the time? Well, yeah, I feel like the grandmother of all of this.

But I know for a fact, because I was told that in a few years the readership expanded because the way I was writing and what I was saying and how I was reading the world was bringing in this perspective of being a migrant, a Muslim, a female, a woman of colour. And I know that, you know, internationally the audience figures changed and expanded. And being there for a long time, 18 years, I became a voice of a newspaper in a way that had never happened before. really is changing that people you know just for monetary reasons for profit reasons the media doesn't get the potential out there if they only diversified properly. Jane as a woman from a

working class background albeit a white woman from a working class background how have you fared among what you've called the male pale and posh gang um i think i managed to hide my roots for quite a long time jenny because having been brought up on the isle of dogs and i went to a comprehensive and um lived in a council house i then went to cambridge so when i found myself um working at the Financial Times and then the Guardian, it was fine to fit in, you know, because I'd gone to the college. But that, I mean, it was awful because that really is sort of something that I think the industry is getting worse because it's becoming, it is really competitive. The ways to get into the industry, there are still many.

But, you know, one of the ways in is doing an MA, which obviously someone teaching an MA at the moment, it's brilliant to go to City, but it does cost money. And we do have scholarships. Amal has been brilliant. She's just graduated this year. There are lots of people like that, but there just aren't enough. So we need to really think about if we want to actually look at the stories that matter, how people are living their lives, what actually happens. It's not just about one tiny group of people in society. And it has to. That's why I think it's important when we talk about diversity. But Jane, on this male, male, pale and posh question, what difference has the fact that we now have five female national newspaper editors made at The Sun, The Guardian, The FT, The Sunday Times and The Mirror? I think it does make a huge difference, actually. For a start, it's that you can't be what you can't see.

So when you do have more women in positions of power and more women on the television, I mean, it's that you can't be what you can't see. So when you do have more women in positions of power, and more women on the television, I mean, it's really interesting that the TV in this research has changed in the eight years since the last piece of research that we did. I mean, it's still, there's still sort of huge issues like Newsnight having no, you know, woman, man of colour during the one week. But it has changed. And I think, look, it's unbelievably frustratingly slow. I mean, you know, the amounts of change. When people see, say, whether it's, you know, Catherine Gravina, the Guardian, or Ruda Khalifa, the FT,

I mean, all these sort of great women leading, of course it makes a difference. But actually, for the industry as a whole, it's glacial, the pace of change. Yasmin, why do you think it's still a problem after you've been present for all these years, but so few women seem to have followed you? Maybe I've just been a too dangerous voice, I don't know. But I think one of the things that it must be, as Jane says, as situations get more competitive and the media is a very difficult area to get into now,

in some ways it was easier when I got in because there wasn't this amount of pressure and competition. And when it becomes less competitive, I'm sorry to say this, but white men of a certain class and a certain background become more keen on promoting their own, preserving the enclave, then actually opening up. And what happens then is we are in the news, you know, diverse people, black nation people are in the news, but as objects, as people to talk about, not to be part driving the conversations. So we're hauled up to talk about land of hope and glory, you know, as kind of puppets to battle out these fake battles. But we are not leading the conversations. And I think the more competition there is, the harder it's going to get. And it's just not acceptable, actually. How optimistic, Amal, are you about your own chances in journalism, having taken part in this research?

I am quite optimistic because being part of this research, it just shows how important it is to get our voices out there and to remind the industry that the diversity is still not happening. We're not you know being represented enough so I am hopeful even for the younger generation is just to show an example that we're still doing the work and we still have to be positive and change will happen. But what actually really needs to be done Amal to give opportunities to a wider range of people of talent? In regards to that, it really depends on the leaders of the industry, the editors, to give way to younger women of colour, different ethnicities, different social class,

even people with disability and genders. I mean, if we have the skills and the ability and the capability, we should be encouraged to get better and to develop our skills further. I mean, sometimes you can get a job at the entry level, but going from, you know, a producer to maybe a reporter or be a presenter at TV, that's where the challenge is. And that's where we need to see the difference to do more steps to get us there.

Yasmin, what do you reckon needs to actually be done? Do you know, I know I'm very old fashioned, but I really think positive discrimination is the only way. That's what changed America. This is simply not true of American media. And what changed everything in America, I know there are terrible problems in America on race. I'm not romanticizing that country. But when it comes to employment and progress and retention and power, they're doing much better because they had positive discrimination. There's no other way. Jane, positive discrimination. There's no other way. Jane, positive discrimination? Yeah, and I actually think getting the data.

I mean, I think once you start counting, once you start really looking, it's so easy for people to say, you know, well, look at that one senior woman over there. The industry's changed enormously. And then you look at the number and 10 years on, it's still one in four women are writing front page stories. Still 30% are actually speaking as experts on TV and radio. And then you look at the number and 10 years on, it's still one in four women are writing front page stories.

Still, 30 percent are actually speaking as experts on TV and radio. So we need to track the numbers and then hold these companies to account and say, you keep speaking these wrong, wrong words about diversity and inclusion. What have you done about it? Jane Martinson, Amal Wasami and Yasmin Alibai-Brown, thank you all very much indeed for being with us this morning and we would of course like to hear from you on this subject. What have you observed as you read your newspapers, listen to your radio, watch your television and what do you think about it? You can send us an email or, of course, you can send us a tweet. Now, still to come in today's programme, the way alcohol is sold to women. Why have the colour pink, a lot of glitter and the slogan female empowerment become so common? And does it work? And the serial, the fourth episode of Lifelines. As you may have read this morning,

the campaign group Back to 60 has failed in the High Court to achieve its aim of enabling women born in the 1950s who missed out on their pensions at the age of 60 to have the money they expected to get restored. The judges said they were sympathetic to the women's case but said there was no unlawful discrimination under EU and human rights law and the changes were a long overdue move towards gender equality. So where does that leave the 3.8 million women affected by the raising of the state pension age? Jo welsh is the director of back 260

joanne what was the reaction of julie delvin carol glenn who really led the appeal to the ruling well good morning jenny um they were astounded like everybody else because we won Leave to Appeal on all grounds. So we expected a win and we still expect a win. We will never retreat. And along those lines, you know, as the client, that's myself, and the claimants, Julie Delve and Karen Glynn, they've been actively considering the next steps and I can confirm this morning that Karen and Julie are going ahead with an application for permission

to have this heard in the Supreme Court. But the judges were so clear, weren't they? They said there's no unlawful discrimination under EU and human rights law and the changes were a long overdue move towards gender equality. That's an opinion which we do not share. And as I say, we are pressing ahead and we will never retreat. Full restitution is in the crosshairs and that is our primary goal. 50s women have been discriminated

against. 9.8 million men were given five years free National Insurance contributions to enable them to retire at 60 years of age, which is five years early for men. Whilst 3.8 million women were denied their state pensions for up to six years and then coerced back to the workplace, and latterly amid the pandemic. Now, if that is not discrimination, but I really don't know what discrimination is, it's just outrageous that women have been treated in this way. But what it's done, Jenny, it's given birth to a women's movement. And we've launched the CEDAWPT.com, CEDAW People's Tribunal, where the tribunal will be looking at discrimination over the last 40 years.

Because CEDAW was ratified in this country 40 years ago and the Women's Bill of Rights has never been transposed into domestic law. So that's another goal of ours, to transpose CEDAW into domestic law so that no other women of colour younger than us will ever have to be subjected to such tyranny. This is the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women, which is the UN law. How do you think that might help this particular cause?

Well, the CEDAW People's Tribunal will be looking at all articles of the CEDAW Convention. I think I'm right in saying there's 18. So there'll be independent judges, academics, witnesses, all looking at what I just described. And one of those things will be what's happened to 50s women. And by the way, we submitted grave and systemic evidence to the CEDAW committee in Geneva. And there's a 77th session coming up in October to look at our submission.

And there's been four inquiries, I believe, in the last 20 years. And were we to be successful, then the UK government will be investigated for what we say what Michael Mansfield called a catastrophic impact on 50s women

Michael Mansfield who of course is your barrister so how hopeful are you about the Supreme Court? We are suprem Supreme Court. We will not retreat. Our evidence is irrefutable. And we stand by everything the legal team has done.

A magnificent, world-class legal team that came behind you know when I first went to see Michael I couldn't believe that they were that he and his team had accepted the representative Joanne we're going to have to end there because I'm afraid the quality of the line has deteriorated

somewhat but thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning, Joanne Welch. And again, we'd like to hear from you. If you were one of the women born in the 50s who missed out on her pension, what impact has it had on you? Now, if you've been looking at advertising on television, in magazines and in newspapers recently, you may have noticed a distinct change in the way ads are aimed at women.

Suddenly there's a lot of wine o'clock, the colour pink noticed a distinct change in the way ads are aimed at women. Suddenly, there's a lot of wine o'clock, the colour pink, a lot of glitter, and the slogan female empowerment. Well, how well does the feminisation of booze work? Kate Bailey is one of the authors of Love Yourself Sober. Dr Athanasia Daskalopoulou is a lecturer in marketing at the University of Liverpool's Management School. And Carol Emsley is Professor of Substance Use and Misuse at the School of Health and Life Sciences at Glasgow Caledonian University. Carol, what has your research shown are the trends between women and alcohol? Well, the overall statistics very much show that while men still drink more than women, the gender gap is reducing. We have to be aware that alcohol is a leading global risk

factor for early death among women aged under 50. And it's also responsible for around 8% of breast cancer cases worldwide. So it's definitely a cause for concern. Closer to home, I would say that our research at Glasgow Caledonian University has showed how alcohol is used to demonstrate our identity to others. So we went out to talk to women in their 30s and 40s and asked them about drinking and what it meant to them. And we know that from this research, women used alcohol really to try and show their identity

beyond the responsibilities associated with being a woman in midlife. And they summed this up with stories and laughter around timeout and transformation. So the idea that alcohol provides relaxation at the end of the day and time out from responsibilities, but also this transformation where women felt that they were transformed back to carefree youth away from their responsibilities. And how would you say, Carol, it's being marketed? Well, we know that the alcohol industry is increasingly designing and promoting products for women. And so we've seen a move away from sexualising women to sell alcohol to men towards alcohol brands themselves trying to align their products with sophistication, with women's empowerment and with female friendship to sell alcohol to women.

And this is really straight out of the tobacco industry playbook with slogans such as you've come a long way baby in the 60s, trying to align products, tobacco in that case, with women's liberation. Athanasia, what examples have you noticed of advertising to women being linked to feminism, sisterhood, wine o'clock? It's really not surprising that alcohol companies are targeting women at the moment because their socioeconomic power has increased and also their drinking. So we see a feminization of alcohol products, also of drinking spaces with ladies' nights and drinking culture. We see a feminization of alcohol products, also of drinking spaces with ladies' nights and drinking culture. We see a lot of trends in terms of developing new products such as fruit beers, ready-to-drink beverages, low-calorie drinks, even low-alcohol products. We also see a change in the messages so we see a focus on slimness weight pink packaging glitter messages of sisterhood all female friendships motherhood and also the all-time favorite sexiness messages of

empowerment have increased and of a celebration of women example, in association with International Women's Day, Valentine's Day, and even Mother's Day. Kate, what's been your relationship to alcohol? How much has gender played a part in it? Well, I think I've been on the ground, as it were, and being in sober forums for the last eight years. And I definitely, most of these forums were set up with pretty much all of them for women by women. And so it's very interesting to hear what sort of comes out of there. And one of the big reasons, you know, Mandy and I wrote our book and do the work we do is that we saw a massive impact on on mothers and this linked kind of mummy juice wine o'clock and this that women were using alcohol to kind of it's the acceptable face of self-medication stress release we were

sold it as this kind of reward at the end of the day and once you start unpicking the kind of mental health links obviously the cancer links and we feel that mums are a very vulnerable group in terms of their mental health it's something like one in three experience mental health issues in early motherhood. So it's really like, so when you're sort of self-medicating this kind of anxiety and using it for that kind of reason, you're very vulnerable at risk of sliding down the scale of the alcohol use disorder. So it's not like this, okay, you're normal and then you're an alcoholic. There's a spectrum, according to the World Health Organization. So you'll be in that kind of harmful and hazardous place if you are drinking in that way.

And we've seen that very much and myself included. So really, there's this kind of like, OK, well, it's the pressures on women. So what do you make then of the way it seems increasingly to be marketed? Well, I think there's a few things happening there. I think that there's also been the rise of social media. And I think the kind of mummy wine o'clock, it came out of a kind of a good place. It had a good heart. It was women suddenly, instead of everything looking like a good place it had a good heart it was women suddenly instead

of everything looking like a Bowdoin bum fight and icing the cupcakes and looking like a supermodel there were real women on the rise of Instagram and social media you know breastfeeding in the bathroom surrounded by you know washing but unfortunately that real parenting got kind of tied up it got coupled with drinking and so you'd have bottles of wine in prams, mummy juice, you know, calm on the outside, Prosecco on the inside. And then the marketeers kind of cashed in on that is the way I see it, and kind of really ran with that. So I think we've got to really ask what we actually need. You know, it's not about shaming, blaming,

being perfect, but what do you need are you ragged at the end of the day do you need flexible you know work do you need affordable child care because women are literally limping towards the end of the day and crashing with a few glasses of wine which is in turn going to make their mental health deteriorate. Carol, how worried are you about women's best interests not being considered by the manufacturers who are paying for the advertising? Yeah, I am concerned about this. I think Kate's absolutely right. We shouldn't be blaming women for this. We shouldn't be applying double standards to women in the way that they're being judged more harshly for their drinking, particularly mothers. But what we need to remember is that alcohol advertising normalises drinking. And although the alcohol industry claims only to market to adult, of course,

our young people, our daughters are consuming the same media and taking in the same alcohol messages as adults. And so I think there's a couple of things we can do at a policy level. We've got reports coming out, such as the alcohol harm report yesterday called It's Everywhere, Alcohol's Public Face and Private Harm, which is really calling in the UK government to restrict alcohol advertising. And as Kate said, this needs to be online media as well as broadcast media. We see the rise of social media and influencers selling products to women. We need to think about the alcohol sponsorship of professional sport. And in Scotland, the elite girls team is now being sponsored not by alcohol, but by a public health organisation, SHAP. And we need an independent regulator.

So at policy level, we need to restrict alcohol advertising. We need organisations like Kate's to talk about alcohol-free days or alcohol-free lifestyles so it's not normalised. And we can also try and call out some of these images of pink, fluffy, sparkly advertising. So our social media campaign, hashtag don't pink my drink, tries to do this on Twitter where we ask women to post examples that they've seen in the supermarket of products that are really equating women's drinking with pink, with fun, with friendship, with empowerment. Athanasia, does this form of advertising work? Are women buying more drink because it's pink and glittery? Or do they think, oh, come on?

Actually, unfortunately, there is a market for this is a form of feminism that is mostly white, middle class, cisgendered and heterosexual. And we see that these companies are using empowerment as a form of market segmentation. You know, if only women had the right products, the right alcohol drinks, they could achieve anything, anything could be possible for them. But we have to acknowledge that feeling empowered is not the same thing as actually being empowered as a woman. And this is really dangerous because these type of advertisements, they promote a type of neoliberal corporate feminism that doesn't actually challenge deep structural inequalities and doesn't contribute to women's movements and struggles. It is a type of feminism that is very accommodating.

It is not difficult. It's not threatening. It's not angry. It isn't humorless. You know, you are empowered as a woman who drinks, but you're not a killjoy as well, in the words of Sarah Ahmed. Kate, briefly, how do you avoid the killjoy term? Well, one of the reasons I started Love Sober is that I think not only do we need to really call out the cultural, historical and advertising messages around alcohol, but sobriety itself actually really needs a rebrand. And what you are finding on sober forums, you know, behind those closed doors, if you like,

it's people having a whale of a time. We're having a much better time once we ask better questions about what we need. There are, you know, club soda campaigns for lovely non-alcoholic drinks in pubs. So you're not punished with an orange juice anymore. You get to grips with what you need. I love what Anastasia said about the, you know, the real empowerment, because we think that actually by putting down the drink and calling time on those messages is a very empowering and kind of joyful thing. I was talking to Kate Bailey, Dr Athanasia Daskalopoulou and Carol Emsley. On Twitter came a message on the Jacqueline Wilson conversation from Neve. And she said, I remind you, on Twitter,

the secret of happiness in life is not to be on Twitter too much. Wise words from my queen, Jacqueline Wilson. On women and the marketing of alcohol, Kelly McCarthy said in an email, I detest wine o'clock and other various soundbites, especially when they feature on plucks in the home. It's normalising alcohol consumption and conflating female autonomy and independence with overindulgence.

Mary said on Twitter, All females are seen as consumers. It's how consumerism took off. Of course, the men were the puppet masters in all of this and the critics too. She spends too much of my money on nonsense. Jenny tweeted to say Prosecco O'Clock vintage kitchen signs, mugs that say wish it was wine, gin, lip balms, etc., all aimed at women and make alcohol the everyday norm. We can crack on with life without decorating our houses with tat,

urging us to have a swig of fizz or gin every half hour. And Fiona emailed to say, I used to work in a women's wear department store. At the end of each busy day, we were encouraged by the managers to go home and have a big glass of wine. It always seemed very unhealthy to me and normalised, even glorified drinking. Well, thank you for all your responses to today's programme. Do join me tomorrow when we'll be asking whether you're happy to be naked in front of your children or does it make you feel uncomfortable? I'll be talking to the

illustrator Rosie Hayne who's created a children's book called It Isn't Rude to be Nude. Join me tomorrow, two minutes past ten. Bye bye. Have you ever wondered what teachers talk about when no one else is listening? Well, you're about to find out. I'm Maureen Bake and my brand new podcast, The Secret Life of Teachers, goes behind the headlines to see what's really going on as teachers go back to school after the lockdown.

I was a teacher for almost a decade, but I never witnessed a time like this. So I've created my own virtual secret staff room, where each week some teacher friends and I will discuss everything from remote learning and mental health to offset inspections and teachers behaving badly. If you'd also like to overhear their uncensored staff room confessions, then subscribe to my podcast, The Secret Life of Teachers, on BBC Sounds. and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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