Woman's Hour - Jada Pinkett Smith, Summer Hats, Female Democratic Front-Runners 2020 US Elections

Episode Date: August 27, 2019

Six female candidates continue to vie for the democratic nomination for president in 2020 elections. We take a look at the front-runners including Elizabeth Warren and Kamala HarrisJada Pinkett Smith is an American actress, producer, philanthropist, singer, businesswoman and talk show host. She, along with her 18-year-old daughter Willow and mother Adrienne, take part in Red Table Talk, an intimate chat show with three generations from the same family.Throughout the summer we've been talking about clothes and accessories that most of us have and which tend to be trotted out for every holiday. Today the dress historian Amber Butchart examines the straw hat.In April 2011, Karen Edwards received a visit from a police officer telling her that her daughter, Becky, was dead. Becky had been murdered & had been lying in a makeshift grave since 2003. Despite the killer confessing, he couldn't be convicted at the time as the evidence was not admissible in court. Karen had to fight to see the killer brought to justice. She has now written a book, A Killer's Confession and a Mother's Fight for the Truth. Presenter: Tina Daheley Interviewed guest: Martina Fitzgerald Interviewed guest: Kelly Jane Torrance Interviewed guest: Jada Pinkett Smith Interviewed guest: Amber Butchart Interviewed guest: Karen Edwards Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, Tina Dehealy here with the Woman's Hour podcast for Tuesday the 27th of August. On the programme today, Jada Pinkett-Smith, the American actress and businesswoman, tells me about her Facebook watch show, Red Table Talk. It features revealing conversations with her daughter and mum about everything from unconventional relationships to porn, infidelity and race.

Also coming up, Karen Edwards, whose daughter Becky was murdered more than 15 years ago, is here to tell us why she's written a book about what happened. But first, a look ahead to the 2020 US elections. Six female candidates continue to vie for the Democratic nomination for president. Elizabeth Warren's doing well, coming close in the polls to the popularity of Bernie Sanders. And Kamala Harris has put in some great performances in the debates. But with the next one coming up, the line-up needs to thin out. So who might not make it? And what do these early stages reveal about the state

of the US's glass ceiling after Hillary Clinton? Well, to find out how the race is going, I'm joined by political journalist Martina Fitzgerald and senior editor at The Washington Examiner, Kelly-Jane Torrance. So how does the election work? And where are we at this moment in time? Yeah, it's very different, of course, from the British parliamentary system. And that's one reason you have such a long election season here in the United States. Without fixed elections, like you have in a parliamentary system, with the fixed elections that you have here in the US, basically, people start campaigning the day after an election. And that's why you have such a long season and so much money

spent. When you don't have fixed elections, you don't know when that's coming. You don't know the issues that are going to be important. You don't know which leaders are going to be up, which are going to be down. So it's much shorter season in Britain and in Canada, where I'm actually from. Who are, Kelly, the six women in contention for the nomination? And why are we only talking about Democrats here? Why are there no Republicans? Well, that is because there is an incumbent Republican president, Donald Trump, and he is actually going to see some primary challengers.

Bill Weld is running and Joe Walsh just announced, former Illinois congressman. But neither of those men is going to win. Donald Trump is going to get the Republican nomination. It's almost unprecedented for an incumbent president not and in some ways not. So you've got Elizabeth Warren, senator from Massachusetts, who's the best polling female candidate. Then you have Kamala Harris, former attorney general of California. Amy Klobuchar is a senator from Minnesota. You've got Kirsten Gillibrand, who is the senator from New York, Tulsi Gabbard, who is from Hawaii. And you have Marianne Williamson, who is not a politician. She is a sort of self-help guru and spiritual advisor, let's say. And she's certainly one of the more entertaining candidates in the race, but the least likely to get the nomination. And she may not even see the next debate stage. I think we're not sure yet.

Why is she entertaining? She's a little wacky. She's a little crazy. She talks a lot of new age type expressions. And we're not used to seeing that on the political stage. Certainly after Donald Trump, perhaps it's silly to say anything is unexpected. But, you, but someone like her is very unexpected. And honestly, she's entertaining, but I should say with a note of seriousness that some of her ideas are actually dangerous. For example, she's talked a lot in the are not vaccinating their children like they used to. Martina, how significant is it that there are six women in contention? Can you tell us more about who the leading candidates are?

Well, first of all, it is historic because for the first time, more than two women are running in the same major party's primary process. So that's the first already. And because of that, we're getting more information and more research is being carried out about the gender dynamic of the race. Now in terms of the frontrunner, I think it's clear that Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris have moved away from the others, and they're going to be in the third debate and so is Amy Klobuchar and it's not clear if the other three will be at this stage and we'll know by tomorrow what the case will be in terms of have they met the threshold in terms of donors and also in terms of polling. How significant are these debates when it when it comes to their success? Well if you take Kamala Harris she made a really good gains in the polls after the first poll

and that were the first debate because she went out and attacked the former vice president Joe Biden for his 70s opposition to federally mandated busing as a means to fight segregation and she saw her jump uh that is getting people to school bringing them to school mandating them to school uh to fight segregation in certain parts of america now he uh she after that didn't uh did bounce up in the poll she got an increase in fundraising her profile uh went, but that didn't last. Now, she's still in the top tier of the candidates, but a poll overnight has shown that Elizabeth Warren, Joe Biden and also Bernie Sanders are now neck and neck. Now, this is one poll we should say. There is a caveat and there is a margin of error of about 6%, but they're all around 20%. And if that is the case in other polling data that comes through,

well, then they have made significant gains. And that is very interesting for Elizabeth Warren, who didn't start off well. But as Politico said recently, it's a case of the rock versus the rock star because she is attracting huge crowds now at her meetings. She is fundraising and really making gains in the amount of small donations that she's bringing into her campaign. And also she is doing well from the polls, as you've seen. And all of that achieved after a terrible start,

when there was so much focus on her DNA test of whether she identified as Native American and of course Donald Trump jumped on that calling her Pocahontas and he now regrets saying that so soon he said he should have waited because she's fought back but she also is known as the woman with a plan or several plans because she has issued a campaign strategy and policy strategy one after the other on child, on the elimination of student debt, on big oil, on climate change, on breaking up tech companies. So she has certainly a record of a substantive candidate. But there is a lot of focus on whether that will resonate with middle America.

The women candidates running this time around aren't hiding their femininity in the same way that they have done in the past. That's something different this time around. Kelly? Yeah, it is. It's very interesting. You know, when Hillary Clinton was first lady,

she famously said, you know, I'm not going to be the kind of woman that's at home baking cookies. And of course, she's famous for wearing pantsuits. So she had a very different style as first lady than we've seen in the past. But now some of the candidates are actually trying to use their femininity in a way that Hillary Clinton, I don't think ever did. You have Kirsten Gillibrand, for example, running as a young mother, as she calls herself regularly. I believe her children are teenagers, so I'm not sure that's entirely accurate.

But she does emphasize her being a mother and talks about how she's running because she wants a better country for her children. And you have Kamala Harris, who was married later in life, does not have children of her own, but has stepchildren and really has brought them out and been pictured with them on the campaign trail and talks about cooking. And you have Elizabeth Warren talking about how she first dropped out of college, out of university to get married. So these are not things we've really seen before in female candidates in the past. They have tried to, you know, seem more masculine in a way. And we're seeing it very different this time. It's quite interesting. I don't know if it's going

to work, but it seems like they've all made that decision to do that. Martina? Well, interestingly, Vox has decided to even the playing pitch because it has made the point that time after time, female candidates are being asked how they juggle a home life and also a political career. So they decided to ask the male candidates about their parenting and their obligations to try to even the pitch and not to focus just on women's personal lives. But there has been some extraordinary and very interesting research done this time around because the number of women in the field allows for it. For instance, the Northeastern University School of Journalism, it has carried out a look at how the media are treating the women and male candidates. And it has found over a stretch of the campaign that by and large, women are getting more negative sentiment from the media.

And there has been a focus on their appearance on their personal lives as opposed to their ideas and professional experience and it is more negative in tone and they also get less attention that doesn't surprise me if i'm honest no and i don't think it's going to surprise hillary clinton because she said what a shocker when she when she heard about it listen, we've come a long way since 1984 when one columnist infamously observed that the Democratic vice president candidate, Geraldine F. Raro, had nicer legs than her opponent and wondered if she would be the first vice president to enter a wet T-shirt contest. So thankfully, we've come a long way since then. But there is an unconscious bias. And what they have done in the Northeastern University School is looking at,

initially it was the five most read websites, and now they've expanded it to 29 outlets. And the data is holding up. Women are experiencing a more negative sentiment from the media. But another research has been done to show that two-thirds of those who are following the presidential race in terms of journalists are male, and that does have a bearing. But I think also it's quite interesting if you look back at some of the studies because there has been a lot of focus on are women electable, are they likable? And we saw back in a study in 2016 by Harvard that women who identify as power-seeking or ambitious are penalized by voters,

male and female, which is a bit shocking, whereas men are not. However, we're in a new era, maybe perhaps in American politics after the midterm elections, where women won key states and they flipped them. So it would be very interesting to see if we have moved on from 2016. But as we all know, there were many contributing factors to Hillary Clinton's campaign. But many of her staff who've written books believe gender was one of them. But we also know women, white women, voted for Donald Trump in huge numbers. America still does not have, it hasn't had a female president. How do we know any more about how the American public feel about women in politics?

Has that changed? There have been a number of polls. And while people are asked straight out, would you like to see a woman president? Do you think it would be important? They have all been overwhelmingly positive towards that. But I suppose the question is, is there a more unconscious bias about that? And that research done now was way back in 2010 about power seeking, but it does hold firm that maybe there's an unconscious bias. And we see from the media attention that many of the women are talked about in terms of their appearance, in terms of their parenting skills, although they have put it front and center this time around.

But perhaps there needs to be a different focus. If you look at someone like Elizabeth Warren, yes, she's getting a focus on being a woman, but equally so on being a member of the progressive wing of the party. Kelly? That will hold. Yeah, the data is really fascinating. A business school study actually found that companies were 79 times more likely to hire a woman when the finalist pool included more than one woman.

So we're actually seeing, of course, more women are running. It might be more likely for a woman to win. But the fact is that having more women running makes people think a woman could do this job. So to me, that's that's fascinating. But yeah, you know, exit polls indicated a majority of white women in 2016 voted for Donald Trump. And of course, Clinton had trouble connecting with the working class voters that Mr. Trump seemed to connect with best. And I think Elizabeth Warren has the best shot now of reaching those people. You know, she opened her campaign, announced it with a video and she live video and she opened a beer and she had her husband there.

And so she definitely is is sort of trying to reach those same voters that Donald Trump did. But yeah, the other thing, though, is that there's less urgency, I actually think, this election about having a female presidential candidate. Hillary Clinton was supposed to be the first female president. Everybody expected it. It didn't happen. And the Democrats actually seem less urgent about it now. The idea is to have a woman on the ticket somewhere. So if a male candidate wins having a female running mate. But I think it's interesting that despite the history of slavery and racism in America, the country was

ready for a black president before it was ready for a female president. And yes, voters tell pollsters that they're positive, they're interested in having a female president. But the proof's really in the pudding. They have not voted for one. And as Martina noted, research shows that it's much harder for female candidates to be rated as likable as men. Just in a word from both of you, all things considered, are we likely to see a female candidate win the Democratic nomination for 2020? Kelly? I think there's a very good chance. Martina mentioned that poll yesterday. Elizabeth Warren is really surging. It's only one poll. Joe Biden has been stumbling. He lost a huge amount. That poll showed he actually went down 18 points amongst Democrats who think of themselves as

moderate or conservative. He has been that group's candidates. He's really the only non-progressive candidate. He's not doing well. So there's a good chance. Will she win? I'm not so sure. Okay, Martina. And Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris are very much still in the running for this to get that nomination. But I do want to finish off this note. Don't forget when people ask, is America ready to elect a woman for its highest office? Hillary Clinton did win the popular vote by almost three million. And I hope this time round, a journalist will not write a full article about someone's laugh or her cackle. Yes. And that wasn't a tabloid journalist. It was from one of the more prestigious newspapers. OK, Martina Kelly, thank you very much for joining us this morning.

Next, Jada Pinkett-Smith is an American actress, producer, philanthropist, singer, businesswoman and talk show host. Along with her 18-year-old daughter, Willow, and her mother, Adrienne, three generations of women have opened up their home for a series of frank conversations. Their show Red Table Talk on Facebook Watch has a new series starting in September. It features topics as diverse as infidelity, unconventional relationships, including throupling, which will be explained to porn, as discussed here. 40 million people watch porn on a regular basis. 40 million people? I'm down for

the expensive looking stuff, you know. I'm down for the artistic. Well, I guess I'm not looking at the right stuff. If I was still on my porn game, I'd be able to show you some good porn because back in the day I had a little porn addiction, but I wasn't in a relationship when I had a porn addiction, believe it or not. Thank goodness. I just want y'all to know this is a lot for me. It's a lot for you. It's been a lot for me. You never think your mother has anything to do with porn whatsoever. Yeah, or your grandchild. So how did the idea for the show come about? I looked in my family and I said, oh my goodness, I have three generations of women that have so many beautiful conversations to offer between myself, my daughter, and my mother. And I was like, oh, wow, we should do a show

around the idea of three generations from one family sharing their stories. And so that's how it came about. Was there any resistance from your daughter Willow and your mum? Oh, no. When Willow was, I think she was about 11, I did a one-off, a red table for Mother's Day. That was very successful. And I just kind of put the idea down for a while. And then Ellen Rakuten, who's one of our executive producers, she came to

me and she was like, what are you doing with your three generational? People call it a talk show, but I actually call it a storytelling show. And I was like, nothing. And she was like, what are you doing with your three generational? People call it a talk show, but I actually call it a storytelling show. And I was like, nothing. And she was like, let's revive it. So that's what we did. The topics are so diverse from whether white women should be allowed to adopt black kids to domestic violence, unconventional relationships, porn. How do you decide on what to talk about? Yeah, it just has a lot to do with what's happening in our worlds,

you know, what we're interested in. And then also we have a lot of RTT family members who write in and they ask for certain show topics. And so when we get a lot of people asking for one particular type of show, we go, okay, we should do this show. Domestic violence having been one of them. Is there anything that's off limits? I wouldn't say that there's anything off limits. I do think that there's a time and a place to talk about certain things. But yeah, I wouldn't say that anything is off limit. Your discussions with both your mum and your daughter can be very frank and open. In of the episodes you're discussing porn as I mentioned unconventional relationships and discussing threesomes or throuples I hadn't heard that before whether or not your daughter would could see herself in in a polyamorous

throuple relationship um have you always been comfortable having those types of conversations with her specifically yes yeah my mother and i not so much but definitely um with willow and i we talk about all kinds of things we've always had that kind of relationship i mean you two talking about it is one thing but talking about it you have a lot of viewers to the world is very different um maybe i think i could see how it'd be that way for some people but not really for me it's so funny how people uh get very jittery about speaking frankly and authentically like out in the open but i think that that's what these times are asking for actually why is it so important now more than ever to be authentic and to use your voice in this way?

I think for women specifically in this particular era with us male-dominated construct, I think that it's important that women are willing to share their most internal stories to really help us figure out how we want to navigate our feminine spirits in the world. And I think that a lot of us as women are in question of what that looks like, of all backgrounds, generations. And so I do think that it's important for us as women to have the courage to share our stories just to help kind of create an understanding and a landscape of what the female journey looks like because it is very different but you know for all kinds of women but yet the same if that makes any sense it does it does it probably why it's so compelling to watch because it's so relatable to so many people the things things you talk about. What have you learned about yourself, about your family from doing this show? I haven't really learned too much about my family that I didn't know already. Maybe that my mother is very funny. She's hilarious. She's got a very strong

sense of humor. It has opened up so many doors in people's families and people's relationships to have conversations that aren't easy to have, but that people are believing are necessary to have. On the subject of conversations that aren't easy to have, Willow admits in one of the shows that she was cutting herself. Was that the first time you found out? Yeah. And I was very proud of her. Because what it really showed me is like, as much as you want to be with people that you love in their most darkest hours, that's just not a reality. No. And it just really validated for me that it's so important to pour love into people who we love because it's that love that they carry with them in those dark moments that help pull them out and so I was really proud of her on so many levels because that's what life's about as much as you want to take people

with you we all know that have been in those moments you got to do it as much as you want to take people with you, we all know that have been in those moments. You got to do it. As much as it's great that you are sharing with that, inevitably, I imagine must come criticism. I know that you've been openly criticized for giving your children independence from a young age, for letting them live their lives in the public eye. How do you deal with that? I don't. I'm very clear on what works. You know, having seen what my children have become, that's the part to focus on. You have to focus on what's happening inside your home, not what's happening outside your home.

Inside your home, how do you keep them grounded? They're obviously very lucky. They live privileged lives. Do they understand that? Oh, yeah. They're very clear about that. But as you see, hopefully, my kids do a lot of great things in the world. Jaden just did a I Love You truck where he's giving vegan food away for free on Skid Row in Los Angeles.

And he plans on to do that all around the world. My kids do a lot of philanthropic work to be as young as they are. And it has a lot to do with understanding that they are privileged and part of their responsibility is to help make this a better place. And we heard recently that you were a drug dealer when you were younger, when you knew Tupac. How was that conversation with your children? Did you first have that when that came out publicly? Oh, no. I had that years ago with them, having them to understand certain aspects of my life and where I had come from and why I was the way that I am.

So those are conversations that I had with them many years ago. What would you like other parents to take away from the way you parent or from watching Red Table Talks and the issues that you confront on the shows? Basically, that there isn't a cookie cut out way to parent children and that parents should let go of all the stress of what, you know, Natalie and John are doing down the street with their kids. And you have to really look at your kids individually and see what it is that they need. And so I'm just hoping that parents take that with them. You, along with your husband, Will Smith, famously boycotted the Oscars. How do you feel about that now? Has much progress been made? I think progress is happening. I think one day at a time, I think people are far more conscious of it. And so people are definitely taking steps towards having more inclusion.

Another big theme that comes out of your talks is nonconformity. So even the idea of marriage, what is a successful relationship? I read a quote, which I thought was beautiful, where Will said, we refer to ourselves as life partners when you get into that space when you realize you are literally with someone for the rest of your life no deal breakers there's nothing she could do ever nothing that would break our relationship right yeah I think that once again the same thing with parenting people have to look at their relationship and see what is needed versus what Natalie and John are doing. You know, and I think that sometimes people look at these kind of cookie cut out constructs and say, oh, you know, marriage is supposed to look like this or a husband or a wife. They're supposed to do this or that or behave this way. So I think that it's just important that people really understand that we're all unique individuals. And once you get into a partnership with someone that would inevitably create a unique

partnership and to not be afraid of what that is. And it is it's scary, you know, because when you step out of the boxes and step out of conformity, you're in no man's land. And so then you have to figure out what that is. But 22 years married, that's fantastic. Yeah, 22 years. What's the secret? There is none. I wish there was the super secret or like the super elixir to go, hey, this is it.

But it's different for everyone. No secrets. Jada Pinkett-Smith there. The new series of Red Table Talk on Facebook Watch starts in September, which is next week, believe it or not. Now, throughout the summer, we have been talking about clothes and accessories that most of us have and which tend to be trotted out

for every holiday. I keep mine in a suitcase under the bed, which I nearly packed away, but summer seems to be back for now. Well, today the dress historian Amber Butchart examines the straw hat. I'm wearing a straw hat, sort of another summer perennial. This one in particular I like because you can take it up, roll it up and carry it around with you and just whip it out and put it on when you need protection from the sun. And that's

because it's not a full-headed hat, is it? This is not a full-headed hat. There is no head part to it. It's all brim, I guess you would say. It's all brim, which is slightly differs from the type of hats I want to talk to you about today because it's really the straw shepherdess hat or the berger hat that I wanted to talk about which is kind of the forerunner of the wide brim straw hats that we will wear today. Now I was talking about wearing this as protection from the sun and that's exactly what these hats were initially developed for. You can see them on paintings going back to at least the 15th century straw hats and they became very quickly associated with rural workers hence this name the shepherdess hat. So they really were worn by shepherdesses?

They really were worn by shepherdesses and then became incredibly fashionable especially in the 18th century when we see these ideas about sort of romanticisation of rural life, ideas around the pastoral. We see these ideas in sort of philosophy and literature coming through as well. And you have a lot of very well-to-do 18th century ladies painted with their shepherdess straw hat. This even was something that entered the French monarchy. Well, this is Marie Antoinette's territory, wasn't it? Exactly. So there's a very famous painting that was painted of her in 1783

when she's in full shepherdess style. She's got her what became known as a chemise à la reine, a muslin dress, very loose, very informal. And she has her straw shepherdess hat as well. Now, this painting, when it was put on display at the Louvre, it caused such a sensation that it had to be taken down and another much more appropriate painting had to be painted very very quickly and put in its place. Why did it cause such alarm? Because she was dressed so

informally. This idea of the milkmaid style was all very well and good when she was in the grounds of the Palace of Versailles with her other female friends but not for a public portrait of the French monarch. This was seen as scandalous. It was thought that she was almost painted in her underwear because the dress she was wearing resembled the chemise that was worn as women's underwear at the time. How much would you like to hear what a real shepherdess of the time made of this? I know. I mean, can you imagine? Being a shepherdess must have been a very, very tough job. Yes, I imagine it was. Did the very poor, were they able to afford protection for their heads?

How accessible were straw hats? Well, they could have been made in, you know, sort of cottage industries, in towns and villages, or people may make them at home. And for anyone who thinks all this stuff is trivial, that there's always a serious link and actually straw hats and trade routes, there's an obvious link there, surely. There is. And a lot of the very fashionable straw hats that were being made were actually being created with straw that was imported from Asia. This is at a time in the 18th century when Chinese porcelain was absolutely the height of fashion and sort of Japonism is starting to enter ideas of Western design.

What's that? Design influenced by Japan, essentially. So these things are very, very fashionable and so we do see the trade routes influencing it. We start to see places like Luton spring up as real sort of centres of straw hat making. Yeah, it was called, the football team is still called the Hatters. Ah, there you go. Yeah, a little bit of football trivia. I figure that you look fascinated by that,

Amber. I am fascinated by that. Also, Corvus, there are straw boaters. When did they first come about? Throughout the 19th century, the boater, especially towards the end, certainly began to overtake the sort of Berger, Shepherdess hat. Call it the boater because it came from sailors' uniform. It was originally called the Senate hat and was worn by sailors when they had their summer rig, their sort of summer sailor whites on, essentially. Again, as sort of protection from the sun. And these could even be tarred with black

tar to make them waterproof. I was at the Thames River Police Museum recently in Wapping, and they have some amazing examples of tarred straw hats that are black and shiny and just look great. Anyway, so it began as sort of sailor's uniform and quickly crossed over into fashionable dress as well. Now, the boater hat also was worn for rowing as well and crucially was unisex. So it became sort of part of the uniform of leisure, I guess. And a school uniform too, actually. And a school uniform.

Amber Butchart talking to Jane. Now, in April 2011, on what would have been Karen Edwards' daughter Becky's 29th birthday, a police officer knocked on her door and told her Becky was dead. She'd been murdered and had been lying in a makeshift grave since 2003. Despite her killer, Christopher Halliwell, confessing in 2011, he couldn't be convicted at the time as the evidence wasn't admissible in court. Karen had to fight to see him brought to justice. A six-part drama about what happened, a confession,

starts on ITV next Monday and Karen's book is called A Kidder's Confession and A Mother's Fight for the Truth and she joins me now. Karen, thank you so much for coming in to talk about what happened. Thank you for inviting me. After everything you've been through, why did you decide to write this book now? Well, I felt that there was lots of gaps. People's general curiosity, they hear little bits on the radio, on TV, in the newspaper. There's lots of missing bits that I felt that may help other parents realise what a terrible world is out there. And if they ever found themselves in a situation as I did,

various stages throughout Becky's life, confronted with a situation and have to deal with it, you're not given a handbook, are you, when a child is born? And you do what you think is right at the right time. And I'm hoping that people will not only read it and fill in the gaps that we're missing, but it may help them if they find themselves in that situation. We'll come back to those missing gaps

and the bits you wanted to talk about and you do in the book. But tell me about Becky. What was she like as a child? The day Becky was born, I remember she was handed to me. It was at twenty past nine on the 4th of April, 1982. And I couldn't believe it. it you know I had my little boy now I've got my little girl and her dad and I we both cried in the room I had my perfect pigeon pair you know and she was so angelic and as she was growing up she was a beautiful little girl she was a happy child she really was a lovely I mean blonde hair blue eyes little

doll and everybody used to stop me in the street and you know what beautiful children and I felt so proud but of course as years go by um that beautiful child started falling into the wrong crowd. She started doing sex work. She got into drugs. How did that happen? Well, it started when she went to the senior school and bullying started then. And we don't realise at the time

how important it is to nip bullying in the bud. I tried that, it didn't work. I moved schools, it didn't work. So the bullying then started turning into self-harm. She had a nervous breakdown. She was then taken out of school, and it was at that point she then started getting in with the wrong crowd aerosol sniffing

and then it went into drug, smoking heroin. The last time you saw her was December 2002. What did she say to you and why did she leave? I'd picked her up from court. She'd been in trouble.

She was stood on watch for somebody while they burgled a pub. That's why her DNA was found on the cigarette stub and it was connected with them. That's why she was actually on police record. And she then went on the run for a while because she was frightened of dobbing in the person that she was with. She was then arrested and she was put into prison. Another thing that I never, ever dreamed of ever going into a prison. So I ventured that as well. Then the day of the court, she wanted to go and see her boyfriend. And I thought if I don't let her go go she's going to run away anyway because she was

good at running away and she kissed me goodbye and said mum I can't keep putting you through this that was the last time I saw Becky and then it was 2011 when you found out she was dead and it had been revealed at that point that she was murdered when she was 20 in 2003. What happened in those eight years? You didn't report her missing. I went to the police station a couple of times but because Becky hadn't been flagged up on their radar

they just said, you know, she's out there. And I'd been told by various people that they'd seen Becky. They'd talked to Becky. So I was angry at Becky for not getting in touch with me because she always got in touch with me when she was in trouble, when she needed picking up, when there was bother, she would ring me because she always knew that I would try and make things right, pick her up, brush her off, put her back on the tracks.

And that's what I did. That's what a mother would do. But of course, she was out there. I was even told that she was expecting a baby by somebody. And her baby was due in December. This was in September. I could not believe it. And I used to get it.

My husband, Charlie, used to say to me, Karen, you're becoming paranoid. You're getting up in the middle of the night driving around. But I did all that in silence because, A, it's not the sort of thing that you really want everybody to know about your private life. And if Becky ever did turn her life around, then she could have had a fresh sheet and not everybody knowing what she was doing. The police at the time were looking into the disappearance of another local girl, Sharno Callaghan in Swindon. The police arrested Christopher Halliwell. At the time, he pointed them to the whereabouts of another girl he'd killed. When you heard the news,

you immediately thought it was Becky why I don't know I think it was because they'd said it was but she was petite and Becky was petite she was four foot eleven she's three feet very very tiny and I don't know why my gut instinct I don't know mother's instinct I really don't know why and because of the way the arrest was handled by Detective Superintendent Stephen Fulcher, the procedure that was followed, obtaining the confession, it meant that even though he'd confessed at the time, he couldn't be convicted as the evidence wasn't admissible in court. And Stephen ended up with two counts of gross misconduct, eventually left the police.

How did that make you feel? It made me angry because I'd like to ask the question, if there's a parent out there whose child's gone missing, what would you expect the police to do? Turn your back, walk away? Would Becky still be left in that field and Sian never been found? What would you expect the police officer to do to do exactly what Steve Fulcher did and I will always be grateful for him bringing Becky home. How did

the media coverage compare to that of Sian and Becky? Well the media coverage was probably, it did run on a par. But of course, once the conviction for Halliwell for Sian, it just came to an end. So when I stood on those steps outside the court and I asked the media for all their help to get justice, and I was not going to let it go, and I did. I went out campaigning. We even were in the middle of a riot a football match but I was going to do whatever I had to do because at the end of the day justice was going to be had one way or another and I wanted that day when Halliwell was back in that court and he was being tried for Becky's murder what gives the police the rights to pick and choose who they were going to try and not Becky was a victim the same as Sian was a victim

and I'm afraid when they asked me if I would be satisfied that he was going away a long time for Sian the case eventually went to trial yeah You started campaigning about changes to police guidance. He received a life sentence. How did that make you feel? Well, he actually received a whole life tariff, which now means that he will never, ever be able to come out and pick up on his career ever again. So we can rest assured there's one killer off the streets

and our children will be safe knowing that he's locked away. You have your book out. ITV are broadcasting a six-part drama series, A Confession, focusing on three families, including your story. How do you feel about your story being played out on screen? Quite surreal. Quite surreal. I've actually seen the drama and it is very, very touching in places. Geoff's done a very, very good account of pulling everything together. And of course, my book, A Killer's Confession, runs alongside that. But that's my journey with

Becky, which in a six part drama, you cannot possibly put three separate families in that short space of six weeks. You just can't do it. If it was a 24-part drama, you still couldn't cover it because there's three separate families. There's Steve Fulcher and his journey. There's Sian's family's journey. And there's Becky's family's journey.

But your story in full is in your book, A Kidder's Confession and A Mother's Fight for the Truth. Karen Edwards, thank you so much. I know that was really difficult for you. Thank you for coming in and talking to us. Thank you very much. Karen Edwards ending the programme. Laurie tweeted us about the US election.

Laurie says, let's hope the next generations won't even have to discuss whether a woman can be president or unconscious bias against women by the media, never mind the conscious sexism. A change is going to come, it has to. Half the human slash woman race equals equal. And on straw hats, Lotta tweeted, my great-grandmother plaited straw to make straw hats. Good to know. Thank you for those messages. Tomorrow, Jenny's back

and vegan vlogger Rachel Ammert will be with her cooking the perfect Caribbean jackfruit fritters and the best-selling author Lisa Jewell on her latest thriller The Family Upstairs.

Thanks for listening. I'm Simon Mundy, host of Don't Tell Me The Score, the podcast that uses sport to explore life's bigger questions, covering topics like resilience, tribalism and fear with people like this. We keep talking about fear, and to me, I always want to bring it back to,

are you actually in danger? That's Alex Honnold, star of the Oscar-winning film Free Solo, in which he climbed a 3,000-foot sheer cliff without ropes. So, I mean, a lot of those, you know, social anxiety things, and certainly I've had a lot of issues with talking to attractive people in my life. I'm like, oh no, like I could never do that. And it certainly feels like you're going to die, but realistically you're not going to die.

And that's all practice too. Have a listen to Don't Tell Me The Score, full of useful everyday tips from incredible people on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.