Woman's Hour - Jameela Jamil, Claudia Winkleman, Abortion buffer zones, Female Israel border soldiers

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

The actress Jameela Jamil talks to Emma Barnett about her crusade for gentle exercise and body positivity as well as her new strategy for how she communicates on social media. She’s become one of the internet’s most prominent activists holding the beauty industry and celebrity culture to account for their unrealistic ideals with her provocative online posts. Her outspoken views have led to widely publicised social media spats which she says have left her with the desire to post with more “grace and empathy”. Best known for her role as Tahini in the Netflix series The Good Place she also hosts the podcast iWeigh which declares its “radical inclusivity” agenda where guests talk about what they “weigh” or value in life as opposed to their physical weight. New draft guidance from the Home Office appears to water down previously voted on laws about Safe Access Zones around abortion clinics. To talk about what this could mean for women seeking an abortion, and why the changes might be made, Emma is joined by Jo Gideon, Conservative MP for Stoke-on-Trent Central and Louise McCudden from MSI Reproductive Choices. They were known as Israel’s “eyes on the border.” These were female Israeli border soldiers - who raised concerns about suspicious Hamas activity on the Gaza border in the run up to the October 7 attack - but those concerns went unheard by higher ranking officers. Hamas killed at least 1,200 people in that attack and took about 240 hostages. Since then, more than 23,000 civilians have been killed in the Israeli bombardment that followed, according to the Hamas-run health ministry. Emma discusses with the BBC’s Alice Cuddy who reported on these soldiers and Mary Ann Sieghart, the journalist and author of “The Authority Gap: Why Women Are Still Taken Less Seriously Than Men and What We Can Do About it”The Traitors is back, we’re a few episodes into this second series of the hit reality TV show and things are hotting up at the Scottish castle, where a bunch of strangers are divided into traitors and ‘Faithful’ then compete to win up to £120,000.  Claudia Winkleman is the host who hand picks the traitors.  She joins Emma. Presented by Emma Barnett Producer: Louise Corley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. As Rishi Sunak faces a crucial vote this evening on his Rwanda bill after two Conservative deputy chairmen and a ministerial aide resign and what's those 60 who have to rebel over the cause are the 60 rebelling, one political commentator has compared the whole thing to the traitors that hit reality TV show on the BBC. Well, who better to have on Woman's Hour today

than the host of that, Claudia Winkerman. All to come. But speaking of government policy and votes, a new law voted on more than a year ago by MPs from all political parties designed to protect women going into abortion clinics and stop anti-abortion protesters approaching them with literature and engaging with them and conducting silent prayer along them are being watered down. That's according to

an exclusive report in the iNewspaper. Women now on their way for the procedure, it seems, under this can be approached under this draft guidance. To talk about that today, we'll be joined by an abortion provider and a Conservative MP. Your views are welcome on this, whether you think that is harassment or free speech. But more than that, I would really be interested if you think such an approach can ever work. I'm very interested and always have been in what actually changes people's minds. And if somebody is going out there who believes abortion is wrong and wants to talk to a woman who is on her way for that procedure in a state of mind one can only imagine. You don't know the story, you don't know the backstory, the context to any of that. Does it actually ever stop a woman,

this approach, from going through with that procedure? Does it work? And if not, who's it for then? What is going on? If we try and get into, you may have seen some of these protests, you may live near an abortion provider. What is your view? You may be one of these protesters. I'd very much like to hear from you. What are you hoping to achieve? Has it ever worked? And if it doesn't have a, as you would see it, perhaps if this is your position, a high success rate, then what is the point? America, differently charged issue politically and socially in the US. But this is probably the closest we have in this country to an American style. And in fact, some of these campaigns have been linked to American movements, an American style approach to how to protest something as personal as an abortion.

Do get in touch if you've got a view on this. 84844, that's the number you need to text me here on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email me through the Women's Hour website or send a WhatsApp message on 03700 100 444. Also on today's programme, a report on the Israeli female soldiers that apparently were not listened to when it came to their concerns about Hamas's deadly plans before October the 7th, and what those allegations perhaps speak to more broadly when it comes to women and being listened to. And the actor and presenter Jamila Jamil will be here to talk about women's appearance and how to be heard. All that to come. But last year, the government passed new laws designed to protect women from being harassed outside abortion

clinics. The introduction of so-called buffer zones, that's the phrase you may have heard, meant there was meant to be a 150 metre radius outside abortion clinics within which no protesting or demonstrations can take place. Now though those rules are being watered down under draft guidance. It is draft at this stage we we should say, from the Home Office, which has been seen by the Eye newspaper. The guidance, still under consultation, states demonstrators can approach women attending abortion clinics, offer information, engage in discussion and offer silent prayer all within the 150 metre zone. Some MPs and women's rights campaigners say this would still amount to harassment of women seeking abortions. Joining me now, Joe Gideon, Conservative MP for Stoke-on-Trent

who voted in favour of the introduction of these safe access zones around abortion clinics, and Louise McCudden, Head of External Affairs at MSI Reproductive Choices, which provides contraception and abortion services around the world. Louise, I'll come to you in just a moment. But Jo, if I could just bring you in, first of all, what is your government doing? What's the Home Office doing with this? Well, I haven't seen the guidance, but certainly I am concerned. As you say, I voted in favour of these safe access zones. And, you know, the bill was passed in uh 2023 um and if i can tell you that you know the measure said it introduced safe access zones around abortion clinics where interference with any person's decision to access provide or facilitate the provision of abortion services

within 150 meter zone is an offense um you know that was what was voted on. And MPs across all parties voted in favour of this, we should say. There were those in your party and others who were not in favour of this. But it was a popular, if I could put it like that, a popular vote for this. Yes, because it absolutely wasn't about the issue of whether abortion is right or not. It was about a woman's right to not be harassed in what is obviously a very sensitive and fragile moment in her life. I don't think there are any women who would choose to go to an abortion clinic who haven't thought about the consequences and be, taken it extremely seriously. And therefore, it was about the protection of women.

I recognise you've not seen this and it's been exclusively reported in the paper and it's draft guidance. And we do have a statement here from the Home Office saying we are consulting publicly on the non-statutory guidance on abortion clinics, safe access zones and all responses will be considered ahead of the Home Office publishing the final version. But taking this as we have it in the paper, why do you think there's been this change? Well, clearly, there are people who, you know, with their own sort of moral compass and the pro-life approach to, you know, the abortion is wrong, feel a need to try and persuade right up to the last moment. But as you say, I don't believe that somebody, you know, 150 metres from an abortion clinic is going to be swayed. All it does is, the person that is swayed is maybe the very person that actually took enormous courage to get there in the first place and needs protection.

And it's going for a legal procedure, as you say, this isn't a debate on whether it's legal or not. So you think there's been successful lobbying here of the Home Office by your colleagues? I imagine that that's the only thing I can presume has led to the consultation, because quite clearly we passed the Public Order Act. You know, it is law. And therefore, I don't see how the guidance can deviate from what we voted on. We've had lots of different people in different top jobs, not least the Home Secretary changing recently. This will have just come to James Cleverley's attention. Are you disappointed? I'm disappointed that it would appear that there has been a, you know, a rethink on something post-legislation, which doesn't seem to me the right way to do things. Yes. Let me bring in Louise at this point. We're getting quite a few messages, as you can imagine, on this. What is it like at the moment, what we hear from women is that it doesn't change somebody's mind about making the decision. They've thought about it. As Jo

rightly points out, anybody that comes to have an abortion has thought very carefully about it, and they've made the right decision for themselves at that point in their lives. And we work in countries all around the world with very restrictive abortion laws. So if there's one thing we know, it's that adding restrictive laws or stigma or whatever it is, however many barriers you put in place, it doesn't stop a woman from having an abortion if she wants one. But what it does is add stigma and make it more difficult. And the kind of things that we've experienced and that our clients have experienced range from sometimes calling women murderers, sometimes taking photographs or threatening to film them, which as you can imagine, in particular, you know,

it's distressing for anybody. But if you are, you know, if you have an abusive partner, or you're at risk of honour violence or something like that, it can be particularly frightening. And while it doesn't stop women coming to get an abortion because they've made the decision and that's, you know, the right decision for them. We do have reports from women who delay their appointments based on days when there's particularly high activity outside the clinics. And so it's not just having an emotional impact. Every abortion we provide is safe, but the earlier it is, the safer it is and the more treatment options available. So it is not just having an emotional impact. It's having a clinical impact as well.

So you have seen some women delay appointments. Does that mean they arrive at the clinic, they have some kind of interaction and then they walk away or they go in, they think about it for a bit? Usually what happens is they'll let us know there's a lot of activity that day outside the clinic. So they want to postpone their appointment for another day, or they don't turn up and then they let us know that that was the reason why afterwards. Right. So they may have come close, but they don't go in necessarily. So in some ways, you're saying it has an impact in that way and an impact psychologically. Some of these messages are speaking to that. But overall, the procedure still goes ahead. Are you surprised by this potential change in the guidance from the

government? Well, it's certainly disappointing, because as Joe rightly says, there was cross-party support. And the guidance is potentially going to cause quite a lot of confusion, because not only has Parliament voted very clearly on this, and there's a clear democratic mandate, 77% of the public have also said in polls that they support this. And there have been court cases previously because in Northern Ireland they have similar legislation in place. And at a local level around our clinic in Ealing, it was the first local buffer zone in the country,

was introduced by Ealing Council. That was challenged and upheld by the High Court and again by the Court of Appeal. Is that still in place? Yes, that's still in place and they're actually looking at potentially having to renew it, which is another aspect to this because the national legislation has been so delayed and now there are so many questions over it that local authorities, Ealing, our local authority in Manchester have had to renew theirs as well at a time when local authorities are under huge financial pressures and so on. And so that creates a regional disparity as well in your right to access abortion care confidentially and without being harassed. You're obviously on the side of things which hopes that this doesn't come to pass,

that there's further consultation and we get to this. I mean, it's also taken rather a long time for it to get to this stage. Let me read a flavour of the messages we're getting in here. I had an abortion, reads this message, in my 20s. I had to attend a clinic for the procedure. Nothing would have changed my mind. No pressure could have made me feel any worse than I did already. How dare these protesters think it's their right to try to change minds.

Have compassion and offer support, not judgement, says Rachel. Kirsty, who signs herself off as an adoptive mum, says, I would ask those frankly rude and unempathetic protesters how many children they had adopted and whether they were prepared to adopt the babies of the women they are harassing. Another message here, though, says my niece was practically forced by her boyfriend to have an abortion. The baby would have been born this week. She now regrets it and she wishes she had someone to talk to and could have talked to because she does regret it very much. So being spoken to by pro-life campaigners, reads this message, would have helped. I suppose it's the context of that conversation as well that we're talking about here.

If you're actually on your way into an abortion clinic, you don't know if that sort of conversation could be in that way that you're talking about, but it's interesting to hear your view. Elspeth says, if I'm going to do a shop in Tesco and someone approaches me to say don't because they're unethical, for instance, it would be harassment. How is this outside an abortion clinic any different? Elspeth giving an example, there are other supermarkets available, but how is this any different? Elspeth asks. Paul, one of our many male listeners, says it's nothing to do with free speech. No, it's harassment. As simple as that. And one more here that they are trying to help. And actually, the thought of hurting somebody at their most vulnerable is not how they come to this, even if that is how it comes across. You must have experienced some of these conversations with your constituents over the years, Jo.

I know, you know, I'm not trying to demonise those people who feel they're doing the right thing by voicing their concern and trying to advise people. But what I'm saying is that's, you know, it is wrong from the point of view of women's rights and harassment and everything. And therefore, it's much better to have clear guidance to say, you know, you can put out your message, but you must stay 150 metres away. That is a very clear instruction. And the police then know that they can act if this isn't adhered to. The problem is with the police and protests, and I've experienced this with other protests, that if it's left to the police's judgment of whether what's being done within the 150 metres constitute harassment, the likelihood is that they were on the side of, well, let's just allow it to go on unless it gets violent or something. In which case, it's a kind of, you know, people can really do what they want within that buffer zone. And, you know, we have passed an act, the Public Order Act,

which says this cannot happen. So I can't think of a guy that can't predict it. This is your government. This is the Conservative Party, of which you remember you won a seat in the Red Wall, a very hard seat to win, many predicting you're standing down, I should say, at the next election, but that it will go back to Labour. That's the predictions at the moment. But is this not another view, another insight into your government perhaps being out of step with the British public. What it is, is an insight into, I guess, wanting to get more information.

I mean, maybe the legislation hadn't done sufficient research and therefore they think it's out of kilter. As you say, you know, you can't really defend it. Well, no, I'm not trying to. No, no, but you're trying to. I'm not saying you are, but you're trying to find a reason, I suppose, as to why the Home Office, the government, has done this. And I suppose, is it pointing to a general malaise in your party and a lack of connection with the electorate

to not understand that both the public and cross-party MPs wanted this? So why, I suppose, really the question at the heart of it, and it plays into the Rwanda vote last night, which I believe you voted with the government, you stayed on that side of things, but why your party seems to be, as some would say, beholden to the further right of it? So, I mean, that's a big question. And I've come on basically to respond specifically to... Yes, but this bigger question is part of that, isn't it? You talked about those who will have lobbied for this change, which isn't actually enacting the will of Parliament.

It's going against it. And we've just heard about public consensus, which we know repeatedly is on this side that you were on. So the only conclusion we can draw is that the Home Office, run by James Cleverley at the moment, and then ultimately Rishi Sunak, is beholden to a small part of its party that is on the right. I mean, to be honest,

I don't know the answer, but I will certainly, the reason I wanted to come on was to put the view that the majority of my colleagues supported the Public Order Act and are in sync with the public on wanting it to go through.

And therefore, you know, I wanted to say to the Home Office kind of publicly, please don't mess around with what has already been put into legislation. Well, there you said it. And I hope we can have you back on

and perhaps we'll also have someone from the Home Office. I would very much hope the Home Secretary, James Cleverley, to understand exactly what's going on here. But I suppose it's just trying to diagnose from your knowledge, and with the public listening, which is what we do here every day, why this has happened when it seems to be pretty clear cut. Because often things aren't, but this one does in terms of what had actually been voted on. We appreciate your time. Joe Goody in there, Conservative MP for Stoke-on-Trent, who voted in favour of the introduction of these safe access

zones, and Louise McCudden, their Head of External Affairs at MSI Reproductive Choices, which provides contraception and abortion services around the world. It keeps going here, these messages. You said, what are you hoping to achieve by approaching people entering an abortion clinic? The simple answer is to save a life. Life is precious. To take the life of one's own child while in a vulnerable condition nearly has lifelong consequences. There must be alternative solutions, be they economic or support, reads this message. No name on it. But I suppose if you think it's actually going to work outside a clinic, when you've just heard from someone, I suppose, running a clinic, that it doesn't work, do you still think

it's worth it? It's a pretty extraordinary thing that we're having to from someone, I suppose, running a clinic that it doesn't work, do you still think it's worth it? It's a pretty extraordinary thing that we're having to legislate, I suppose, in the first place for this. Lynn says why is this ban, people quietly standing outside abortion clinics, when just stop oil protesters can lie down in the roads and disrupt traffic for hours before being removed? And

so it carries on. When I'm collecting for a charity, I'm not allowed to approach people because it would be harassment. And so it carries on. When I'm collecting for a charity, I'm not allowed to approach people because it would be harassment. And so it continues. I hope we do get somebody on from the Home Office to respond to this report. My next guest, though, who's just walked into the studio is the actor and presenter Jamila Jamil, who you may know from her role as Tahini in the popular Netflix comedy The Good Place. She's also created an initiative you may also know called I weigh through which women talk about how much they weigh not in kilos but in the qualities they like about themselves and hosts of podcasts and events under the same name but it's often

her provocative social media posts about unrealistic beauty standards for women as well as some of the promotions she's spoken out against by celebrities like the kardashians of slimming products that have resulted in many headlines about her. Jamila Jamil, good morning. Hi, you're like a sniper. I'm obsessed with you. That was a wonderful interview. Right, that's a very nice way to start this. Thank you. Oh my God, I was like, she's terrifying in a wonderful way,

in exactly the way that I hope for women to be. Well, that's always a great way to start an interview. And I suppose you like straight talking. I really do. I really enjoyed that. Thank God I wasn't on camera because I was freaking out. I think we're always on camera. I've learned now in radio. I also had to remember that when moving over to TV and that my face could be seen with my reactions.

I know. It's still my biggest challenge. You have talked about the idea of, at times, I think this is a really interesting phrase, female celebrities being double agents of the patriarchy. Yes. And just before we get into that, can I just say that when I had my abortion, I was pelted with rosary beads in London. Really? Yeah. Pelting rosary beads at me as if that was going to do anything. And I turned around to her and I was like, if I kept this baby, would you abort it? Would you adopt it? And she was like, no. I was like if I kept this baby would you abort it it's not would you abort it would you adopt it and she was like no it's like right I'm going in I don't know

when was that was that this is uh no this was about 11 years ago okay but it was extraordinary extraordinary the people outside who have absolutely no will or desire to actually step up and do anything and who have no recognition of the fact that we're in a cost of living crisis so where do they think this money for all this support is going to come from well i mean we'll get more messages i'm sure from some people who have done that but you you had somebody throw beads throw rosary beads at me and my friend who was carrying me and i had a friend a male friend walk me in to protect me because i knew there would be people outside i didn't know what was going to happen but it was so bizarre i mean well i've never heard the physical side of it before, I suppose,

because this is what we're talking about, having space. I mean, look, I'm five foot ten. I can handle a rosary bead or two, but it was just really extraordinary. And what was said to you, I suppose, by... I was just being called a murderer and called all kinds of terrible names and a few racial slurs just to throw one in. Not to say that all of those people are racist, but I'm just saying that it was a deeply

unpleasant and very uh emotionally violent for people who claim to have so much compassion for human life there was none for mine just for the unborn and did you until they're born and then we don't care about them in this country well i mean i'm not sure that's entirely true no i'm just talking about the way in which we do not take care of people properly well i mean well that's a bigger conversation but if I may just go back to this, was there anything about that exchange that did make you think about anything at all? Because I suppose that's what we're driving at today

about how you actually change minds, which will come to how you express yourself. I don't think slurs and I don't think shame. I think, and this kind of brings us back to what we were talking about. The entirety of my work is based around shame and how it doesn't work and it isn't really an effective tool ever. And I think shaming people and hurling rosary beads at them and hurling abuse at them is a deeply inappropriate way to try to reckon with someone who's already in an emotional and hormonal and vulnerable state. That's not how you appeal to people.

And if you are in a country that currently does not do anywhere near enough to look after the people who are currently already here living on this planet, then you have to think about what you're doing to contribute to the larger system that puts people in a position where they don't feel as though they would be able to look after a child. I mean, there's a whole range of reasons why somebody would. That can't be where your activism starts and ends, being outside an abortion clinic. I mean, you are very straight-talking online.

You have been. I went back to have a look at some of your tweets, and you've deleted some of them that I was trying to find around this. No, I wiped my whole Twitter. You wiped the whole thing? People think I've deleted certain tweets. It was because I'd handed my Twitter over in 2020 to a charity and I was like, oh my God, there's so much effing and blinding on here that that just feels really

inappropriate. I think it was Choose Love. Oh, so you deleted a load of it? I wiped my whole Twitter from 2020 previous. It was a shame because you've got some things out there that are just interesting to reread, I suppose. Well, God bless the Wayback Machine so everyone can always find my greatest moments of shame. But it's not about shame. I suppose it was about whether you think the way that women talk and we all talk online actually gets us anywhere, which is what we're talking about here about these protesters. You have been quite a rare person who's in a high profile field, celebrity field, to actually name people, to say things against individuals, and then you get some blowback yourself. Well, I think some of that blowback is because we aren't accustomed to having women speak their minds and have strong opinions. But I also, to be perfectly honest, think part of that blowback is because I delivered certain opinions of mine in a very aggressive way.

And you are still able to sense some of that aggression and that rage even just in some of my statements earlier. But I used, I guess guess what I would call violent communication via swearing or via judgment or via condescension in the way in which I would deliver some of my points and I think that that was something that was very celebrated on the left especially kind of from 2015 onwards the smackdown culture that now exists I I think, on both political sides, where we want to own someone else, we want to humiliate someone else. And that generates the clicks and the claps. And that's what the algorithm will promote is anything that,

I guess, generates outrage. Sex used to sell in our generation. And now, you know, in our youth, and now sex doesn't really sell anymore, because it's so oversaturated. Now outrage sells. And I think I unknowingly contributed to that culture because I was just speaking my mind. And, you know, if you think about it, pre the Me Too movement, women like me were only ever asked about our lipstick or our hair care routine or how we stay so slim. And then suddenly 2015 happens with the Me Too movement and suddenly a microphone is put in our face and we're asked about giant historical social infrastructures and patriarchy and misogyny, things that we're not accustomed to ever speaking about publicly. And so those of us who are willing to step forward and say something,

we were not trained orators in mastering public speaking about these giant systems of oppression. And so some of us, myself especially included, sometimes trying to find a way to say it without swearing, but sometimes we made a mess of that. And so I think that I was messy in my delivery at times in ways that I now regret but can recognize that just like a man is allowed to grow from his mistakes so are women and so I'm learning in real time in front of my audience on my podcast and very much so reframing the way that I talk to people with whom I disagree and learning non-violent communication because I find that I don't learn when I'm being shamed and maimed and therefore why should uh why should anyone else learn from me in that way it's a weird thing isn't it because you come out of certain phases it now because it's it's growing up with a social media and you

look back and you see different trends and the outrage economy was a massive and still is a massive way to get followers clicks and hits and I and all of that. And I wasn't trying to. No, no, no. I was just being myself. But it was part of that, wasn't it? Yeah. And I regret it because, especially because I got so much attention and suddenly I was on, you know, Time Magazine's 25 Most Influential Lists

and I was on the cover of Vogue and I was being so celebrated. You're also fighting with Piers Morgan and people like that. Oh, God. He who shall not be named. But he... No, it's just in case people are wondering

who we're talking about here when you've had some spars. Oh, right, yeah, I know. morgan lawrence fox like the kardashians are all these different people and again i wasn't trying to make a name for myself i just thought god 12 year old me felt so let down by public figures and had no one to turn to who was actually telling the truth about anything and so i guess i was really kind of doing it for 12 year old me or the next generation of 12 year olds who deserve someone who says the truth who pulls back the well your version your version of the truth yeah the my version of the truth you're not necessarily right that's the issue absolutely but my point is about diet culture especially yes sorry well i mean on that we can get had an eating disorder i was pulling

back the curtain originally and then i kind of got dragged into more and more things because once you start speaking about one thing publicly then suddenly especially as a woman they're like well why don't you care about this why don't you talk about this you should be using your platform for this and it becomes about a hundred things and then people do get drawn into areas that they don't know because you have immense compassion and you want to be able to you want those people to know that you do care but you are ill-informed and ill-equipped to speak on a lot of these subjects and so I found myself weighing in where I did not belong and simply wasn't ready or prepared to be and that is on me for just I guess not it's so chaotic when you're in the middle of it and it's only now that I'm kind of on the other side of it that I can look back and go god that was highly disorganized and actually quite irresponsible

given the size of my growing platform to weigh in on things that I wasn't yet ready for. Now I feel much more confident in the subjects that I speak in because they actually come from lived experience. Do you think a lot of celebrities should just shut up? I don't think a lot of celebrities should shut up about everything. No, no, no. I just think it would be better for us to... Outside of their specialism,

we are now seeing a lot of people, as we have for years, be tempted to go. Oh, totally. The last three months has been a disaster, especially. But I would say that using your platform to uplift the voices of other people who are more educated is the best way that a celebrity can use their voice. Yeah, it's also interesting just because we're talking and you explaining what happened with your Twitter feed. But, you know, it's interesting if somebody high profile amplifies the message and then they delete it with no explanation or context. And I'm thinking of the BBC's highest paid presenter, Gary Lineker, who deleted a controversial tweet, retweeted urging FIFA and the International Olympic Committee to join a global boycott of Israel when it comes to football. Football's his beat. It's been a very debated and contested. You don't need to comment on the specific issue per se, not getting you to do

the thing you're actually talking about not wanting to do. But you know, no further comments been made by the BBC or by him. It's just been deleted. And I think what is just an interesting thing to ask you about as you look back. Yes, but I'm very accountable for my mistakes. So I always say when I've made a mistake mistake and I always apologise for it. Do you think somebody like Gary Lineker and anyone else who has that sort of platform needs to give context when they do something like that? I do think that celebrities have a terror of accepting and admitting when they're wrong. And it's something that I don't have. Like, I feel very comfortable being accountable and admitting when I've made a mistake. And so I do think that it's part of the

I understand the the I understand the fear of not wanting to admit you were wrong, because it does create a bigger pile on publicly. But I do think that when we make a mistake, we have a duty to learn and grow with the public and to say to offer some transparency. And I can say, you know, that while sometimes I get a temporary bigger pylon for having admitted I was wrong, ultimately, I have earned the respect of millions of people who now still follow me and engage with me heavily and listen to my podcast, because they actually feel like they are seeing the words of a human being. And they are actually, I think people are more drawn to fallibility than we realize. I think it's far more relatable than a bunch of perfect demigods that are presented as our celebrities

I think it's far more important to have people who are willing to say oh you know what actually upon new information I have changed my opinion the problem with our generation I think that we are seeing is that we have you know I grew up where you had your identity and then you had your opinion and your identity was relatively fixed, but not completely. And your opinion was seen as relatively transient. And in fact, I'd say pretty transient. Now, it seems as though because of this hellhole of social media, your opinion and your identity have become so deeply intertwined that now when someone criticizes your opinion, you feel as though they're attacking your entire identity. And that's not the case. And I think that's leading to emotion being brought into discussions that emotions don't necessarily belong. We take everything so personally, we don't know how to handle rejection. And I think that we have become terrified of rejection,

terrified of being told that we might be wrong. And I would like to be a part, I guess, as a public figure of making sure that people understand it's okay to be wrong as long as you come back and you do better. Say sorry, do better, carry on. And we don't have a lot of women who do that. A lot of the time women feel that they need to remove themselves from public society. Which is a major issue. And men don't. And self-censorship. Yes. So I take the man's route. Every day here on Woman's Hour, well, there are lots of strong women as well having their voices heard.

I'm not saying I'm the only one. But where they have their voices heard and where they come into that space is also really interesting. And we desperately need more of those women who are willing to say, OK, I was wrong and I keep going now. Jamila Jamil, thank you very much.

I Weigh is, while you're here also in the UK, we should say there's an event going on this weekend in London, but you very much. I Weigh is why you're here also in the UK, we should say there's an event going on this weekend in London, but you can hear more on your podcast under the same name. Thank you for coming in today. Many messages coming in here. One here, though, brilliant interview and conversation just now with Jamila Jamil. And we're accustomed to hearing strong views from women in my life. If you aren't, you've clearly never met my mum, nana or aunts, etc. And so it carries on. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Let's move to something else entirely now, because I've just been joined by one of my colleagues, because she's written a piece about Israel's eyes on the border. And I'm talking about female Israeli border soldiers who were told raised concerns about suspicious Hamas activity on the Gaza border in the run up to the unprecedented October the 7th attacks and killings. But those concerns apparently went unheard by high-ranking officers. That's what's being alleged. To remind you, Hamas killed at least 1,200 people in those attacks,

including the massacring of more than 360 young people attending a music festival and seizing around 240 hostages, around 130 of whom are still being held in Gaza, some of whom may not still be alive. Since then, more than 23,000 civilians have been killed in the Israeli bombardment that's followed. That's according to Hamas's figures. And in the last 24 hours, Israel and Hamas have reached a deal to allow more and much needed humanitarian aid into Gaza. My colleague, the BBC's Alice Cuddy, who's reported on these female Israeli soldiers, has just joined me. And in a moment, I'll talk to Marianne Seahart, the journalist and author of The Authority Gap, Why Women Are Still Taken Less Seriously Than Men and What We Can Do About It. Alice, good morning.

Good morning. You've spoken to a number of young women who were border soldiers in the run-up to those attacks. Tell us what they've said to you. Yeah, that's right. So these are young women who serve in these border units. They're basically surveillance officers. So they're, say, 18 to their early 20s. And their jobs are basically that they're watching live surveillance footage. So they were watching, they say, as Hamas was preparing for the October 7th attacks. Now, they were seeing a range of things. So some of them were saying they were actually seeing the training that Hamas was doing. They were watching them taking over model Israeli actually seeing the training that Hamas was doing.

They were watching them taking over model Israeli tanks on the other side of the fence. They were also watching them detonating bombs near the fence, which they believe was to test the strength of Israel's so-called Iron Wall. One girl, Ronnie, told us that she was seeing convoys of armed mass troops who were driving between observation posts on the other side of the border, talking, pointing at Israel's cameras on the fence, taking pictures, seeming to be looking to see how they might pass it. There was also a lot of people told us about suspicious activity that they were seeing on the other side of the fence. So farmers, sheep herders, bird catchers, who these young women say were behaving suspiciously, their faces were changing, they were moving closer to the fence to areas that they wouldn't normally be in. They believe that they were trying to collect intelligence ahead of October 7th. And in terms of the communication about this to the Israeli defence force, to the IDF, what did they say about that when reporting this?

Yes, so they said that basically these young women say that they were reporting their concerns to their commanders on their bases and they're also filing them in a computer system where it would kind of be passed up the chain to intelligence and more senior officers who could then piece together the broader intelligence picture. Now the young women were telling us that as far as they know they weren't seeing anything being done. Sometimes

senior officers would come to the base but they say one young woman who we're calling Abigail told us no one would talk to us or ask our opinion or tell us about what was going on. They just came, gave a task and left. Is it mainly women who are in these posts? It's only women that serve in these posts. These particular watch posts on the border. Do we know why? Is that just a quirk? Because obviously both men and women are conscripted in Israel.

That's right. No, we were trying to get to the bottom of that and we heard different things. Basically, this unit has just always traditionally been women. Some were saying it's because it's a non-combat role. So it attracts women as opposed to it being only allowed to be women in this unit. Obviously, women in Israel do also serve in combat roles too. Yes, in all those roles. And what do they say about why they feel that they weren't listened to? Yeah the women we spoke to had different opinions about why they weren't listened to. I would say the kind of overriding opinion was that it's because they're junior soldiers they feel that their opinions weren't taken as seriously because of that because

they're kind of at the bottom of the rung when it comes to the military. One thing a few of them said to us was, we're only the eyes. We're not viewed as soldiers. We're just viewed as the eyes. OK. And so, I mean, you know, there's a lot of analysis that has been going on, but will go on, I suppose, in the future about why this happened, how it happened. But the IDF, in terms of a statement that we've got from the Israeli Defence Force, says the IDF is currently focused on eliminating the threat from the terrorist organisation Hamas. Questions of this kind will be looked into at a later stage.

Let me bring in Marianne Seacart at the moment. We've got some context there and some direct views from, well, through our correspondent here, from the Israeli soldiers that we're talking about. But I know you looked at this story, this theory, these allegations, as it were, Mariana. And what do you take from it? Well, I think it's interesting, Emma, that at the beginning you said these warnings, they went unheard. But actually they went unlistened to because they were very much heard.

But senior officers just pushed back. So, one high-ranking Israeli officer visited Nahal Oz base. And when the female spotters said to him, look, something serious is going on, he said, I don't want to hear another word about this nonsense. If you nudge me again about this, you will stand trial. Now, at that base, when the attack happened, 20 female spotters were killed. Another seven were taken hostage and only two managed to escape. And these women were told that they would stand trial if they raise this matter again. So they were, you know, they were really begging these more senior male officers to take them seriously. And the men were refusing to do so. How much of this is to do with sex and to do with rank? I think it's both. But I mean, what one of the spotters said, there's no doubt that if men had been sitting at those screens, things would look different. And there was also a veteran intelligence officer who happened to be a woman who pieced together what was going on months

before the attack and sent warnings to her superiors saying Hamas are planning this very serious attack. And she predicted almost everything that eventually happened. And a senior intelligence officer wrote to her in response saying, it sounds imaginary to me. In other words, you're making it up. He gaslit her. And she pushed back in another email saying, I utterly refute that the scenario is imaginary. It's a plan designed to start a war. It's not just a raid on a village. And she too wasn't listened to and was ignored. There's also the bigger political picture, which has been within Israel highly condemning of Netanyahu,

of his leadership, of complacency generally. So I suppose at times when people are saying they're not quite sure, those who aren't quite sure about how much this stacks up and how much it is a case of those being women and rank and all of that, you know, it fits into that wider, bigger picture, we should say, which is, you know, being highly criticised at the moment. Well, I'm sure it does. And it's certainly true that senior ranks, senior intelligence, military officers and politicians

believed that Hamas were not equipped and didn't intend to launch a war. On the other hand, you know, if you're an intelligence officer, you should always be questioning your assumptions, and you should always be looking at the raw intelligence to see whether your assumptions are wrong. And it sounds like they weren't prepared to do this. And so I don't know to what extent it was that they were just entrenched in their mindset. And to what extent it was that the people telling them were giving them this intelligence or people they just didn't respect. Alice, is there anything you want to add on that? No, no, I think, yeah, those, I should say, as I say, so the people that we spoke to were saying that they felt that it was predominantly about rank. We also spoke to former IDF officials, one of whom was saying,

you know, it's hard to know at this stage, an investigation is coming in the future, exactly what was going on. But he said he believed chauvinism could be one part of what was at play. OK, well, one part. Go on, Marianne. Well, we do know, Emma, that what women say carries a lot less weight than what men say in general. And I'm not talking here about Israel or border spotters. I'm talking about the dynamics of a group. I mean, there was one fascinating experiment which found that men's contribution to a group discussion had six times more influence than women's

contribution, even when they were saying exactly the same thing. And so I think this is just an illustration of that phenomenon. Yeah, I mean, it certainly could be with those other factors that we've explored. And keeping with broadening this out from this particular scenario, you looked into this for your book. You know, what can women do if they find themselves in this situation where they can tell what they're saying isn't being taken as seriously? Did you find any good strategies? Well, I think it's useful for women to act as allies to other women.

I mean, the best thing of all is for men to act as allies to women because what men say tends to carry more weight. So suppose, Emma, you say something in a meeting and no one takes any notice until a man repeats it 10 minutes later and it's treated like the second coming, you know, then one of your allies can say to the man, oh, I'm so glad you agree with what Emma said earlier. Yes. I don't have many men in my meetings at the moment, certainly at Women's Hour, but yes. No, well, that's handy. I agree it's Women's Hour, not Men's Hour. No, no, no. Well, I take the point. So there can be those who are standing up for each other. And I suppose when you were looking at this, you just gave an example of some of the research that's been done in this. You must have found these examples, I suppose, all these years on with women in the workplace, still quite shocking. It's very shocking because we think we've come a long way. And a lot of men in particular think, you know, we've jolly nearly achieved equality. And it's certainly true that many more women are being appointed to big jobs these days.

And, you know, I really celebrate that. But it's in our everyday interactions that we still really genuinely don't have equality. So women are much more likely to be interrupted or talked over than men. They're much more likely to be underestimated and patronised. Their authority is much more likely to be challenged, their expertise. And they have less influence, as I said, in discussions. And until we are more aware of this and are prepared to do something about it, women's voices are just going to be listened to a lot less than men's, and women will be held back in general in their careers. A bit of a theme emerging on today's programme, although lots of great women using their voices on Women's Hour, which is what we like to hear each and every day.

Mary-Anne Seacart, thank you to you. Alice Cuddy, thank you to you, and bringing us some more from your report. Your voice is being heard, I hope, as always, through your messages this morning. Going back to this report around new laws designed to protect women from being harassed outside abortion clinics being potentially watered down with draft guidance that's been seen by a reporter this morning in the iPaper. Some messages here when I asked you if it's actually effective to protest outside an abortion clinic and if it's not, who's it for and how you do persuade people. I suppose it's about voices again being heard.

I've had two abortions and the protesters against just make it more traumatic, not because of my decision, but because it's an attack by people who know nothing of my personal circumstances. It is an assault. I'm sending this message anonymously

for obvious reasons. I did the right thing, but it still hurts. Another one here. When I was pregnant with my now two-year-old daughter, I was shouted at in the street by a protester in London for bringing another human into the world when the planet's resources are so stretched.

And yet we also have a population issue. In terms of the numbers at the moment, that's a whole other argument. Maybe we'll get to that. It's not always anti-abortionists who feel they have the right to give their opinions on our choices. This surely stems from a wider issue in which You try and have a good line ready, I do, in any scenario. But that would have been very shocking indeed. And another one here.

In the clinic room with nurses, it was when I changed my mind about having an abortion, although I did have pressure from a pro-life charity. I was pregnant, aged 36, with a man who didn't want to have a baby with me. I thought it was unfair to bring a child into this world without his consent, but the nurses asked if he was supportive having a baby, would I go ahead? And I said, absolutely. And they carefully pointed out that it was possible to do alone.

He was sat outside the consultation room. I now have a beautiful daughter who was 12. I was vulnerable, but needed the one-to-one privacy and support of the professional nurses. It's a very important story, I think, to share as well this morning. Thank you very much for feeling like you could share it. Now, we've got some emails for my next guest, actually, some questions. Should I tell you who I'm about to talk to? I did tell you earlier.

Arguably the hottest new reality show, The Traitors, is back. We're a few episodes into the second series of the BBC show. Things are getting more fraught at the Scottish Castle where a bunch of strangers are divided into traitors and the faithful and they then compete to win up to £120,000. Claudia Wunkerman is the host. She got on her tweed again for this series. This will get you started if you haven't been watching.

I have selected my traitors. The rest of you will be known as the faithful. The course of the game has now been set. Please remove your blindfolds. Traitors, Traders, you will discover each other's identities tonight. Your job is quite simple.

Stay undetected and murder the faithful. Faithful, your job is to track down the traitors and banish them from the game. If you get it wrong, you could banish an innocent faithful. So who's who? That is for you to work out. Good morning, Claudia Winkerman. By the way, number one, I have to make like at least nine apologies before we even begin. One, there's some lovely builders next door and they're quite noisy. So I've had to hide. I've had to build a tent and I've had to make the background

look as pleasant as possible. So that's one. Two, fake tan drama. Three, why do I talk so slowly when I'm in that castle? Well, you're not going to be slow now, I can tell. You're in a tent, in a bedroom of some kind. You're not in the studio from what I can see on the screen here. But the tone is very dramatic. And, you know, is that something you've been practising in the tent? Can I just say well

yes that's that's a whole other thing no I tell you what happens it's such a good game and the producers are so brilliant when you enter the castle I and you know and I'm wearing something scratchy and I mean that in a good way i.e tweed uh it it does feel very dramatic but just if somebody who hasn't seen it, never heard of it and was just listening to that, they'd be like, is she all right? Does she need a hug? It's quite hard for them not to have heard of it. I think it's been a pretty beautiful success here. So they will have heard of it. They might not have watched it. Don't make that face. You're starting to look embarrassed. I'm giving you some praise and you're not good with that. I know that

of you. Let me ask you this question. Harriet says, Claudia, why is it that all the people that get murdered by the traitors are all women, bar one? And secondly, why are the traitors so ageist? One of them, traitors, was a woman and a bit older, so they murdered her straight away.

Over to you. Well, I mean, correct, Harriet. And I would like to sit down with Harriet and have quite a few conversations about it. I don't want to say anything because what if people haven't watched? I mean, lots of people haven't and they're listening now and they go, oh, this sounds all right. So I'm not going to say any names, but yeah, it's problematic. But then you'll carry on watching and you will see and that is all I can say. That is all you could say. Okay. But would you be a traitor or a faithful? I always wanted to be a traitor,

but I actually think it's harder work. And I think the whole thing, if you're a traitor, you're tap dancing all the time because you have to keep the secret so close. But then you also have control. I know that either way I'd be useless. Well, you would not.

Come on. The poker face has been shown. The tweed might get you into the character, but you know. I think it takes a toll. I don't know. Look, I am so hooked. I'm so obsessed by them. I've only met them after two minutes

and I scream when they do missions. I mean, I've got to calm down when we're in the round table. Sometimes I'm shaking. I'm fully involved. I'm invested. And I don't know which one I would prefer to be. Probably a faithful. You've talked about turning 50 and wanting to take a bit more of a professional risk. And this is part of the reason why you left your house and went to Scotland to do this. I did. I left my house, which I never do. I mean, even today. And I apologise because I would

prefer to have come to see. But I went to Scotland and I fell in love with it and I became obsessed by it. And by the way, the star of the show, other than the brilliant producers and the cast, is Scotland. I cannot describe to you, Emma, the beauty of it. You would turn a corner. There'd be these little, they're not actually called bambis, what are they called? I've never met an animal. What are they? A deer? A deer? Okay. A double rainbow, these vistas, you've never seen anything like it. And we, yeah, we were mesmerised by it.

Well, I have to say, this was written yesterday by the iPaper's chief political commentator, who said last night, talked about constant accusations and suspicions of disloyalty, tight knit factions, daily team building tests, star chambers and showdowns, all played out in a 19th century neo-Gothic building. The similarities between SW1, i.e. Westminster, and the Scottish based game show, The Traitors, are irresistible. This of the Rwanda rebellion.

Oh, my goodness. I mean, thank you very much to the I. No, well, I tell you what you see in Traitors, and I can't comment about the bill last night. Don't worry, I wasn't going to ask you. I'm your you on that um um uh I will it is interesting that what power does and how people are often scared of power and genuine magnetism is all I can say about anything about both in series one and series two is it is it something that you've given you've got a new view on though about who either you have it or you don't, or can you fake it, the magnetism, to get the power? No, I think you either have it or you don't. I'm afraid.

I'm afraid. Straight on on that one. Is that bad news? Yeah, well, I mean, some people are compelling and they and people are drawn to them I'm talking just about my reality show now but you yeah and to watch that is extraordinary do you wear the tweed away from Scotland no only when I get there when I get off the train I go thank you let's put on no actually I love a fingerless glove but we go full tweed we go Ronnie Corbett meets Princess Anne I was reading about Princess Anne being a style icon for men the other day yes of course and I was like thank you guys that's what yeah there you go um you've also recently announced to that you're stepping down from your radio two Saturday morning show what what are your Saturdays going to look like when you have given up I will

not be getting dressed that's the most important thing for everybody. Tweed or fingerless gloves otherwise. Yeah, I like padding about. Well, you know me, I don't do anything other than wander around holding something for half an hour. I don't know what I'm doing with it. I've got this hook. I know I've got to put it somewhere.

I just, I will really miss it and I'm sad to leave. But I am also very, very excited that I can be home on two mornings when my kids are. Romesh is taking over and he's... I mean, I did laugh when you there saying, and it does fit a bit into Woman's Hour, doesn't it, saying, I want to be with my children while they're still at home before they go to university,

and him thanking you for letting him spend less time with his children. Some sexist stereotypes there, perhaps. He is the funniest man alive. He definitely doesn't mean it. He will be racing home. Yeah, he's so funny. Well, I just wanted to be honest, so I could have said lots of other things. But my boss at Radio 2, she's adorable. And it's, you know, it had been scratching at me and she knew it. And I just said, only because yours is still little, which I'm, you know, I could eat them. But my daughter, I know this is a pathetic cliche and I really apologize, but she was two five minutes ago. And now she's going to leave.

And I know it's a really privileged position that I'm in that I can choose now to be with them at the weekend. Obviously, September, they don't see me for dust. I'm covered in sparkles. Bye, guys. Have a great autumn term. I wonder how they're going to do the Paso Doble. And I'll see you at Christmas. Good luck with the homework. Let me know.

Well, it's good to know from two to 18 it goes really fast because our daughter's turning one on Thursday and I was thinking or tomorrow rather I didn't have much sleep last night and I was thinking the last time I spoke to you on air was as I was about to head off into domestic land last show before I went on maternity leave from here from Womans Air and we had a what I now believe to be a hotly contested debate about which way you put the loo roll on you were very much on team paper over the top and I wanted to report back to you and our dear listeners that I am still on team I do not care but I want you to know how many messages I got off the back of that and I did not change my

ways Claudia I am okay that's fine I'm I'm with you and I'm sorry my favorite thing can I share this with the group if there's time because we always chat about uh I was texting you and I'm sorry, my favourite thing, can I share this with the group if there's time? Because we always chat about, I was texting, you and I were texting yesterday. I've said that out loud. And we were talking about, I mean, I'm 52. I turned 52 on Monday. I don't know whether that's got anything to do with it. But I send messages always to the wrong people. Always without context.

And also GIFs. Not only that, on my phone, I don't know whether you have this thing, it's called a sticker. I was having a conversation with my daughter's geography teacher who is adorable and charming. I sent a unicorn by accident.

And I sent you something. You then replied to me something I don't want to share. But anyway, so that's what's happening. Just to add to the loo roll debate, is everybody else or is it just me sending the wrong messages? No, no. I texted somebody back the other day and included the word daddy. And I don't know why. It just came out.

I was obviously talking to my husband about something about being, I do not know. And this person wrote back. I hope it was your husband and I hope it was erotic. I don't know. And this person wrote back about a friend of a friend who I really like. She said, was that a nickname we came up with me for on that hen do? And I was like, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I'm now mortified.

But there was a... Yes, do you not remember at 2am, you and I were doing the conga and I said, from now on, I'm going to call you Daddy. Hey, Daddy. Claudia Wilkeman, a pleasure as always. We've put a lot to write there. Maybe we'll get some messages to Rory if we can on when you send the wrong message to people. Maybe we'll get some of those wrong messages here at Woman's Hour.

It's lovely to have you back on the programme. Congratulations on The Traitors and The Tweed. And we will speak again. Thank you so much for all of your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. I'm Jon Ronson and I'm back with season two of Things Fell Apart,

my show for BBC Radio 4 that unearths the origin stories of the culture wars. This time around, the stories are all about the battlefronts that engulfed us during lockdown. The stories twist and turn until each one ends with the explosion of a new, far-reaching culture war. If you tell me that my nephew had superhuman strength, if you tell me that he didn't feel any pain, well, he's dead now.

That's Things Fell Apart, Season 2. Listen on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.