Woman's Hour - Jamie-Lee O'Donnell, Dr Lin Berwick, Women in the 1921 Census

Episode Date: January 6, 2022

Jamie-Lee O’Donnell is best known for playing the wise cracking Michelle in Channel 4’s Derry Girls, the comedy series about a group of teenagers growing up in 1990's Northern Ireland. Jamie-Lee has swapped the school uniform for a prison uniform for new drama Screw on Channel 4, about working in a men’s prison.This time last year shocking footage coming from Washington DC, as supporters of Donald Trump stormed the Capitol building, captured the world's attention. Two women, who were part of that riot, were among the people who died. The event in America is now simply known as January the Sixth. Helen Lewis, writer for the Atlantic Magazine joins Emma to discuss the the significance of the event a year on.The Pope has come under fire by some and been supported by others for comments during his weekly general audience at the Vatican in which he lamented that some married couples opt to remain childless and instead transfer their love to cats, dogs and other animals. We get your views and those of Cathy Adams, a maternal ambivalence blogger.Dr Lin Berwick MBE has cerebral palsy quadriplegia and became totally blind at the age of 15. She also has partial hearing loss and is a permanent wheelchair user. She wasn't expected to live past her teens and has needed care 24/7 all her life. Now in her seventies, she has been a fierce advocate and ambassador for people with disabilities and their carers, and has written a new book On A Count of Three all about what it's like having a carer - and what she thinks carers should know. Today sees the unveiling of the 1921 census records. Details of the census are always kept secret for 100 years, apart from broad statistics. This census for the first time includes details of divorce and also where people worked. Melanie Abbott reports and Emma speaks to Dr Michala Hulme, a social historian and genealogist from the University of Birmingham.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Pets versus children. Shall we start there? The Pope has come under fire by some and supported by others for comments during his weekly general audience at the Vatican yesterday, in which he lamented that some married couples opt to remain childless and instead transfer their love to cats, dogs and other animals. He said, today we see a form of selfishness. We see that some people do not want to have a child and sometimes they have one and that's it, but they have dogs and cats that take the place of children. The Pope went on to say that those who do not procreate deny themselves the

joy of parenthood, a decision that diminishes us and takes away our humanity. So having pets instead of babies is selfish. What do you stand on this? And I suppose to go a bit more and go a bit further on this, of course, some say having children is the ultimate act of selfishness. Others argue that having a child makes you far more selfless. Where are you on this. Of course, some say having children is the ultimate act of selfishness. Others argue that having a child makes you far more selfless. Where are you on this and your take on selfishness when it comes to having children? And that other point that he makes in there, what do you make of the idea that having children guarantees joy, that by not doing so, you deny yourself the joy of parenthood.

He did go on to talk about, which is not necessarily the focus today, but of course I'm aware of this, he did go on to talk about those who could not have children and urged them to adopt. But for those who make a choice not to, and that might be some of you listening, I'm sure many of you this morning, what do you make of these comments? And if you have had children, what do you make of the idea of it being selfish not to

and the joy that you get by having them? It's a very, very good one to hear your views on. Of course, we do talk a lot about these sorts of issues in a variety of ways, but these comments are very clear from the Pope and I want to hear your take on them. Text me here at Women's Hour on 84844, on social media at BBC Women's Hour or get

in touch with an email through our website. Just to say that previously the Pope when I was looking this up has said that having pets instead of children was a phenomenon of cultural degradation and an emotional relationships with pets were easier than the complex relationships between parents and children. Discuss, you may have both pets and children. Have a take on that. Also on today's programme, as the Prime Minister talks about the NHS being on a war footing and doctors and nurses and carers feeling the strain of nearly two years of a pandemic,

Dr Lynne Berwick is here to share some sobering and funny truths as a disabled woman about what makes a good carer and crucially, what doesn't. And the Derry girl we all want to be, Michelle, from the Channel 4 series, a.k.a. Jamie Lee O'Donnell, is coming on as she turns her hand to playing a prison officer, all to come.

But first, this time last year, shocking footage coming from Washington, D.C., as supporters of Donald Trump stormed the Capitol building, captured the world's attention. Two women who were part of that riot were among the people who died. The event in America is now simply known as January the 6th. It happened as Congress was meeting to certify Mr Biden's presidential election victory, and we saw lawmakers cowering from what was going on in the gallery of the House of Representatives, some of them underneath their desks. Well, today, the former president had planned to host a news conference from his Florida home to mark the event. But Trump cancelled it after aides reported reportedly warned of negative press coverage.

President Biden will speak today in the National Statutory Hall, which is part of the Capitol building complex that was breached by rioters. Helen Lewis, writer for The Atlantic magazine, magazine joins me now good morning helen i remember we talked a year ago to the day about this and about what was happening and specifically with the lens on women and just to start with a particular woman fox news presenter laura in graham publicly questioned donald trump's plan to hold a press conference today he's now cancelled it but her questioning of him as she's a supporter of his could have been influential. Well, Fox News is basically the kind of Trump TV at this point. And one of the things that has come out in the congressional inquiry into all of this actually is Mark Meadows, who was Trump's chief of staff, initially cooperated with through his cooperation. But that has allowed

the committee to see text messages exchanged between prominent Fox personalities and him on the day. And what you see is that contrary to the line now that you get from some of the high profile hosts like Laura Ingraham and Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, that, you know, this was all a put up job. You know, these people were true patriots. Any violence was done by, you know, left wing Antifa infiltrators. The text messages on the day are very much Trump has got to tell these people to knock this off. This is really dangerous. You know, this is going too far. And he's got to get over the fact that he's lost the election. So to me, the story of the last year around this is really the story of a kind of mythology being born and one that has deviated further and further from reality, but has become now an article of faith.

You know, if you are a true patriot, a true Trump supporter, you have to believe the election was stolen. You have to believe the election was stolen. You have to believe that there was nothing wrong in storming the Capitol a year ago. And when we were talking about the storming of it, you were explaining to us about the role of QAnon and specifically how that had appealed to women, because I mentioned there two women who were killed. What is the status of that today, a year on? So QAnon was a conspiracy theory in which cryptic messages were received from a figure called Q, whose identity is now guessed at but never been officially confirmed. Q stopped posting in December last year, but the conspiracy theory has continued and mutated on. And what's interesting to me is that both the women who died have quite

strong obvious links with them. Ashley Babbitt is the one that everyone has heard of who was killed while trying, shot by an officer while trying to storm the Speaker's office. Vanity Fair published a brilliant profile of another woman who was crushed to death in a tunnel called Roseanne Boyland. And what struck me about her story is that her entry to QAnon was through this particular sub-conspiracy called Wayfair, where a prominent furniture manufacturer was accused of child trafficking, of smuggling trafficked children in its cabinets, which to you and me probably sounds kind of pretty crazy. But what was very moving about this story is it took her very seriously and revealed the fact her sister said she had cervical cancer, she couldn't have children, and she became therefore obsessed

with the idea of protecting children, that this was something she wanted to do. And I think this is really important to understand, QAnon, is that it has spread through wellness movements, through mothers groups, through vaccine scepticism movements, because a lot of it is framed as concern for children and is therefore appealing to people who wouldn't necessarily see themselves as incredibly big P political. Yes. And we should say, though, there are reports of it going pretty silent recently. Well, what I think personally has happened to it is that it has kind of mutated into vaccine scepticism. There is now in some kind of way, a giant role in conspiracy theory, which has overtones of antisemitism, it has overtones of the far right, in which there are global elites who control everything, and then it manifests itself in

different ways. So while you might hear a little bit less about the child right, in which there are global elites who control everything. And then it manifests itself in different ways. So while you might hear a little bit less about the child trafficking, you hear a bit more about how Bill Gates is trying to microchip us all with the coronavirus vaccine or, you know, the Rothschilds are behind this, that or the other. So what's the modern conspiracy movement has become in the same way the Internet has, right? Decentralized. There's no one person in charge of it. Even Trump isn't really in charge of what his followers think and has, you know, shown a bit of leg occasionally to QAnon, but

has not full-throatedly endorsed it. So it's a very internet phenomenon in which you can pick and choose from a kind of a la carte menu of beliefs, really. Yes. And I was just going to say with that, you know, there was reports of Trump being booed recently when he revealed he had his booster. Yeah. even Trump is now not Trumpy enough for some of his supporters, which I think is really interesting. I mean, we should all be incredibly grateful for the fact that Donald Trump did not become a COVID denialist, did not try and stop the booster programme, which is where some of the people in his party are now. Some of them are very strongly anti-vaxxers. Some of the big prominent

right wing media personalities are very strongly anti-vax. And he wasn't. And I think that's something that, you know, when we talk about and we compare British new politics and American politics, our mainstream political parties, whether of the right or the left, are all agreed that coronavirus is real and we need to get vaccinated against it. And that is simply not the case in America. America is in a much more extreme position than we are. And to come to some of the politicians within this and to a prominent woman, Liz Cheney, of course, Republican representative for Wyoming, daughter of Dick Cheney, very, very critical of what happened last year, continues to be so. She's going to be on Fox News today.

How influential is her voice in guiding the Republicans and where they're going? Well, not at all, really. I mean, she has been thoroughly ostracised. is her voice in guiding the Republicans and where they're going? Well, not at all, really. I mean, she has been thoroughly ostracised. And as you say, this is Dick Cheney's daughter, somebody who really, you know, would expect to be part of the absolute establishment. But her line in the last week has been,

the party has to choose between Trump and truth. And I think that is a very stark consequence. You know, Donald Trump has simply not accepted that he lost the last election. The signs suggest that he might run again. The signs suggest it's entirely possible that he might legitimately win against a much weaker candidate, a much more divisive candidate than Joe Biden. So this is, you know, this is by no means over. But as I think Liz Cheney sees it, this is a battle for the soul of the Republican Party. Is this a party that accepts democracy or not, really? And the Atlantic's

cover story at the moment by our brilliant reporter Barton Gelman, it talks about January 6th, says January 6th was practice. Because actually, ever since that happened, that was a riot that was all about the certification of election results. And ever since that, there has been a torrent of attempts to politicise the election process. You know, again, in Britain, it's lovely, you know, we go and vote in our local school, primary school or church hall, I'm in pencils, and it's all, you know, it's lovely volunteers on the door. That is not the atmosphere of many people's election experience in America. There are incredibly long queues, you know, districts have been very heavily gerrymandered. There has been intimidation of election officials. You know, the state of democracy,

actually, there is more fragile than I think it's comfortable to contemplate. I think the journey that you just talked about, though, from QAnon, moving towards the anti-vax side of things and how that has happened, but also why it appealed to women and a lot of that being about care for children. I mean, you know, the anti-vax movement in America, there are a lot of women, high profile women involved in that precisely because of the Children's Link and other reasons, isn't there? Yeah. And it's a very difficult not not for the scientific authorities to thread, because there is very low risk to COVID from children. There are some side effects from vaccines. And actually,

for an older population, your risk is far more from getting COVID than it is from any vaccine. And actually, is that balance a little bit finer when it comes to children? So the problem has always been, how do you convey that messaging in a straightforward way without indulging the idea that there is some sort of secret plot of whatever it might be in order to poison children and you know the anti-vax movement isn't new you know we've seen MMR for example was a very controversial time based on a thoroughly discredited study by Andrew Wakefield so this has been a recurrent idea and it does speak to women because a lot of it is about ideals of purity and what you put in your body. And that has a kind of Instagrammy overtone of, you know, I'm going to go vegan,

for example, you know, I'm going to only do a keto diet, you know, this idea that actually women are much more invested in this, in these ideas of bodily purity. And I think that does speak to a certain part of the anti-vaxxer movement too. Well, closer to home, away from anti-vaxxer but more towards vax hesitancy. We've of course seen large levels of that at times within those pregnant women who are trying

to decide what to do and are concerned about that and that's obviously been a discussion we had a whole question and answer session about that just before Christmas. Thank you very much Helen Lewis, writer for The Atlantic there had we had a whole question and answer session about that just before Christmas. Thank you very much, Helen Lewis, a writer for The Atlantic. They're coming back a year on to sort of take in what happened, roles, the roles of women and also how things have changed. And if we're just talking about QAnon there, if you're interested to learn more, the story of it is is taken up by Gabriel Gatehouse on Radio 4. It's on at the moment in a series called The Coming Storm.

If you've missed the start of that, it's very good indeed. Catch back up on BBC Sounds. I have to say, with regards then getting back to those comments from the Pope on children, him saying today we see a form of selfishness, we see people do not want to have a child, sometimes they have one and that's it, but dogs and cats now taking the place of children

and also those who do not procreate, denying themselves the joy of parenthood. I did think you'd have a view on it. It's safe to say quite a lot of you have got in touch. Let me just give you a flavour of some of these messages regarding having children. I really don't think anyone should make a statement regarding what involves other people's bodies or lives. It's a very complex and personal issue to say that people who don't have children are selfish is absurd, especially given our current climate crisis. Ultimately, there are too many people in the world for it to be sustainable. And those who choose not to are far from selfish, a very short sighted and thoughtless statement from someone we'd all hope to go for for words of wisdom. If you want to catch up on that, by the way, we did have a whole discussion on whether it is going to make a difference not to have more children or not, or to have children or not. And that's actually a subjective debate. This message ends

with, personally, I've had three children, all neurodiverse, but my third has suffered with so many extreme issues that it would have been far easier had I been childless. That said, I love all my children. They are my life and I wouldn't change anything about any of them. It is a complex issue. Thank you very much for that honesty there. Emma, 30 years ago when we got married, we knew children were not something we wanted. Nothing selfish, just not interested. I've never been aware that anyone thought this was an odd choice. We do have dogs and horses, however.

These are not substitute children. They're just a natural part of life on a farm. Being godparents to six and aunt and uncle to seven has generally been very enjoyable, says Caroline. Good morning to you. Having children is the most selfish thing anyone can do. I have lots of rescued animals. After being a good nanny for many years, I decided I did not want to care for a child.

It's also so boring. I am not selfish enough either, says Lucy. Well, let's talk now to the journalist and mother, Cathy Adams. Good morning. Hello. Hi. Often refer to yourself as the ambivalent mother in your writing to get to that. Let me allow you the platform, first of all, to say, I suppose, your response to these comments. I mean, it's such a complex issue, you know, not even to touch upon the climate crisis. I mean, the poor animals as well. I won't even go into that because I don't

actually have pets. One child is enough for me at the moment. I think my main problem is that his comments really diminish the idea of what a family is. I mean, I have a son. He was born right at the beginning of the COVID pandemic, which was the worst timing to become a parent possibly ever. But, you know, the idea that really children have to be wrapped up in that family unit, I still find quite, quite obscene. And I think it diminishes the fact that just somebody and their partner and their pets even can be a kind of proper family unit. I mean, the other thing, I've just got kind of so much resentment for anybody, especially a man who remains celibate, that can then say that it is sort of a woman's duty. And that is what it comes down to. It's putting the pressure on the woman to create that perfect family unit. And that is bound up in, I mean, millennia worth of sort of propaganda, you know,

to be the ideal mother, to be the ideal parent. And it's something that women and I particularly struggled with without even realising that I was struggling with it. I was trying to. Well, let's come to that in just a moment. I was going to say, I mean, that point has been made. You know, the Pope has no children. The point's also been made by others. You know, is it not selfish to become a religious leader who can't have children? If you're talking about selfishness, there is a message here, though, saying, you know, is it not selfish to become a religious leader who can't have children? If you're talking about selfishness, there is a message here, though, saying, you know, the Pope has a right to tell people to have children. We need better instruction on marriage and what it entails. And of course, I'm minded to mention, you know, there's 1.3 billion Catholics

globally, 5.2 million here in the UK. But on that point about the struggle, which is you and I spoke, you know, just under a year ago or so. And we talked about your ambivalence, which is what you had written about and that struggle. And I think where he says, you know, those who don't procreate deny themselves the joy, you know, away from the headlines. I wanted to ask what you made of that. So I think joy is a really strange word to sort of focus on really because for me having a child has brought me I would say everything but joy as much as I and I always have to caveat everything I say with the fact that I do love my son he's you know he's a great little boy very

very lively keeps me entertained but also he's taken a lot of what I found joyful about my life and about my identity he's taken that away from me and found joyful about my life and about my identity. He's taken that away from me. And I think in my in my day job, I mean, I'm a travel writer and editor. It's just so clear that what I've lost is that ability to do things that I like to do and things that make me really tick. Like we just got back from, I mean, a frankly disastrous holiday to Barbados. And I think because I was trying, which I know is like- I mean, my heart bleeds, yes.

Say the tiny violin. I know, Emma, honestly. But, you know, it really is such a struggle sometimes to sort of marry up what makes you you and what you can do with a child. And sometimes I look at my son and I think, you've just taken everything that I loved about my life away from me. You know, as much as he's given me, he's given me so much.

Sometimes, you know, you do have to think, well, is it actually all worth it? And my answer changes daily to that. So I know I'm... Your honesty on this will be appreciated by some. It will, of course, I'm sure, as you've found with your writing, it will appall others in the sense of, of you know either because they want to have uh children or they have them and they feel entirely differently I'm I'm imagining the terrible Barbados experience was you know you had the whole kind of same stuff different postcode

worst kit experience as well as I'm sure lots of other things um but but you actually could be described as selfish around the way you talk about having your child because you miss being able to be selfish so taking these words about selfishness. That's very true that's very true I mean I'm you know it doesn't need saying but I come from a position of you know immense privilege and the fact that I'm able to have a child I have a shelter you know he's able to go to thank god full-time child care which is sanity saving so i'm aware i do come from a place you know of immense privilege on that front i i just can't agree that having a child is a selfish act though i think even in you know with the backdrop of the

climate crisis with overpopulation so not not having not having a child is a selfish act you mean because that's what i know i mean oh I mean, oh, I see, right. No, no, no, I think that having a child is a very selfless act. Yeah, exactly. I think I can see that I was a very selfish person. I still am. I haven't lost that part of myself. But I think that's the case for a lot of people nowadays.

We are selfish because society has evolved to such an extent that we can do whatever we like, whenever we like. You I was I was traveling a lot before I had my my my baby and that was just part of my life and it was selfish it was incredibly selfish and I think having him I I found it really hard to suddenly you know put my needs aside and tend completely to his and that that is quite a kind of gruesome experience in a way to overcome and try and just wrap your head around the fact that you always now have to think about somebody else and you know my husband always says to me oh well I always put you first and I say yeah I always put me first too and he just finds that um he finds that quite amusing but you know

he knew what he was getting into I mean I I think the years to get to this point where women can speak so honestly about, you know, how it actually feels, how it makes you feel, what the impact is on your life is really, really important. I'm sure there'll also be others who've got in touch with you to say, wait till he's a bit older and you'll start to get the joy back or some of those things that perhaps are missing in the earlier years and make it very hard, especially with the sleep deprivation. But, you know, there's a message here saying it's more selfish to have a child and not be a good parent than not to have a child at all. It is never selfish not to not have a child. Who are you harming? I'm child free by choice. And I'm regularly reminded I made the right choice. You know, for those who can make a choice, I suppose, though, some people end up doing it because they think, well, is this what we're here for? You know, is the rest of it? Does it just start to get a bit repetitive doing things for you, for yourself all of the time? I mean, and I'm coming at that and I'm badly paraphrasing some people who may feel that because of religious reasons as well as other reasons.

Yeah. Where do you come out on that in terms of a sense of purpose? Coming at that, and I'm badly paraphrasing some people who may feel that because of religious reasons as well as other reasons. Where do you come out on that in terms of a sense of purpose? I mean, that is, we're essentially going against, yeah, like millennia worth of kind of propaganda, you know, against the fact that families are made with children. You know, it's two parents and and children and that has been kind of rammed down our throats from from day dot really I mean it's baked into the language I've always said you know it's a motherhood it's the best job on earth I mean it sort of implies that it is a full-time career in in some ways and it's really put upon a pedestal and I think all this kind of goes back to you know it's kind of the the ideal mother being the Virgin Mary who just sort of didn't even have to have sex she didn't have to get dirty to um to have a child so it just goes against i think

everything that we've ever been taught and this is why after my my son who was born a couple of years ago i thought you know it wasn't the best day of my life the day that he was born it's not the best thing i've ever done and this is just anathema you know to other women sometimes because i think some women do feel that sense of purpose and I think really what we need to remember is that having a child is such a personal thing and everybody's experience is so so different nobody's experience is worth more than another you know but I I do feel like I can't help being so candid about this because I think the fact that sometimes some women also aren't made to be mothers and I

on days would put myself into that category I don't I just don't particularly enjoy the whole mothering experience you know I think I would have been a much better father than a mother um but that's okay you know and it is getting better because as my son is getting older he's talking more he's understanding more he's also crucially not needing me as much as he once did so that is making a massive massive impact on my life but I think it's it's okay to to be selfish it is okay to feel a bit like this and it's okay to almost resent the fact that sometimes I made this this choice myself but I quite like I quite like your next well I was going to say Kathy I I quite like your next, well, I was going to say, Cathy, I quite like your next travel assignment to be towards the Vatican

and a sit down with the Pope. Love it. I think your experience of this would be a fascinating discourse between the two of you because you've actually gone through it. Cathy Adams, good to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed.

Thank you. Of course, a lot of people have minded to say that they want this guidance. They want this instruction from the Pope and from their religious and spiritual leaders. And also this message here, which is supporting what he's saying, but in a different way, coming at it from a different way. From Ruth, good morning to you in West Sussex. Emma, hello. I'm 57. I have four children.

And I can honestly say the joy and happiness they've brought to us has been immeasurable. To procreate, if you can, is quite simply the most incredible experience. And the feelings of love they bring are unique and overwhelming. And I feel very lucky to have had four healthy children. And I'm always amazed how unselfish my children's generation are, not wanting to bring children into this damaged world. I think I was completely selfish. I never thought through properly the world they'd be living in and just had my heart set on having a big family. although I'm very proud of my work as a nurse I think my greatest achievement in life is to have had four amazing children although I know this may be a controversial statement by the way I have three cats and a dog who I also love a lot as well love

the program thank you Ruth thank you to you I mean also describing children as an achievement that's a whole other debate in itself which we could could go there. But I appreciate your sentiment and very different to Cathy and her ambivalence about becoming and being a mother. Keep your messages coming in on 84844 around the Pope saying it is selfish to not have children and have pets instead, amongst other things he said in his weekly address. Now, my next guest is best known for playing the wisecracking Michelle in Channel 4's Derry Girls, the comedy series about a group of teenagers growing up in the 90s in Derry, Londonderry in Northern Ireland. I'm, of course, talking about Jamie Lee O'Donnell.

The series has been a huge hit, becoming the most popular TV series in Northern Ireland, and the final series is due for release later this year. Now, Jamie Lee has swapped the school uniform for a prison uniform in a new six-part drama series, Screw, beginning tonight on Channel 4, all about a group of prison officers working in a men's prison. Jamie plays new probation officer Rose. Here's a clip involving Rose and the officers Lee and Gary, and they've just discovered an inmate spaced out in his cell. We've got a zombie. Kaplan, again, completely fraggled. and the officers, Lee and Gary, and they've just discovered an inmate spaced out in his cell. We've got a zombie.

Kaplan, again, completely fraggled. Isn't he already in debt? Word is he had extra portions of chicken to sell for spice. They sell their food? Yeah, fish is the money, but everything's worth something. Except those little brown biscuits, bourbons, no-one likes them. Where did he get extra chicken from? Today of all days.

It was me. I didn't believe Bilal and I was wrong, so I trusted Kaplan and I called the kitchen. Look, I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. It's just there's so much to take in and it never ends and it's the longest I've been away from a phone since I was like ten. Sort Bilal now. Put him in that single and stay out of my sight. Jamie Lee O'Donnell, good morning. Morning, how's it going? Well, it's going well and it's quite tense. I managed

to watch an early showing of that last night and you don't get any training easily, do you, on the job when you first shift? I think the training that the officers do, obviously it's a bit different to the hands-on stuff whenever you get in there. I think the training that the officers do obviously is a bit different to the hands-on stuff whenever you get in there. I think she gets caught really off guard when she gets in there. Well, it seems pretty stressful. How did you find approaching this role to play a prison officer?

Well, obviously the script was brilliant when I first read it. I think Rob obviously really put a lot of heart and soul into it. The guy who wrote it, Rob, as I he um he worked in a prison and volunteered um i think he'd done creative writing and stuff in there so it was really true life experience for him and then whenever we were in rehearsals we worked with actual prison officers so they came in and sort of talked through everything and we got to ask them loads of questions and and they were there then throughout

the shoot if there was anything we needed to ask or if they spotted anything that wasn't necessarily true to life, they would have been able to step on them and be like, usually we would do it like this or help us out. So it was really nice. Well, I've got to say, one of the officers that you're working alongside is pretty sexist, takes a look at you and your character and as a young woman says that this was political correctness gone mad because there's no way you could handle a group of male prisoners yeah um what what did you make of that

I think again it's just sort of showing um the variety of people that work in these sort of jobs you know what I mean I think it's just it's just a wee bit of something for everybody you know what I mean and sort of you're always going to get people like that and especially in jobs like this and high pressure jobs and if you continue with the show Dory is the character

played by Stephen his character has a lot of development as well the same way all of us do so if you follow along his story does develop

and that gives it much weight but there's a lot of development within that and Stephen right in real life is actually the opposite of that

he's such a nice guy he's actually so so hilarious he plays Dory so the opposite. That is such a nice guy. He's actually so, so well. It's hilarious. He plays guys so well, but he's actually such a nice, hilarious guy. You've had a lot of jobs, as people often do who've been trying to get into acting, even if you weren't trying to get into acting in the first place.

Do you reckon you could cut it as a prison officer? I mean, I'd like to think I could. I suppose a lot of people would say that because I think it takes a lot of ambition. I think it takes a lot of compassion and understanding because at the end of the day, you're almost the caregivers for these people who've been convicted of

various types of crimes and it seems to me that you'd have to put that out of your head to make sure that they get looked after and their human needs are met. So I think that would take a certain type of person. And I think we'd all like to think that we have that within us. So, I mean, hopefully, I mean, I'd like to say I could. Yes. Well, I was looking through some of the jobs that you did have.

Sorry, there's a slight interruption on the line there, but hopefully everyone can hear us. And there was one about you managing, just having had Christmas, managing a Santa's grotto and you had to fire some drunk elves? Tell us about that. So I'd done promotional work for about six years on and off and I just sort of had loads of different random jobs. I've actually written a lot of it down now for,

I don't know if it's going to be a sitcom or what, but I've written a lot of it down now into a script. Just because the experiences were so crazy, but you just sort of find that within that line of work you're sort of starting working and then obviously

I was managing the grotto and it was a big heavy night at one of the nightclubs the night before and a lot of the elves were like late teens, early twenties

they came in the next day and you could just smell them a drink and one was sick in a bin and it was just like oh no and there's like obviously

you had to sort of rejig people because there's loads of kids around. But you just have experiences like that, I think, trying to be an actor or a singer or a dancer or whatever. I just like the image of a drunk elf throwing up in a bin while, I don't know, a toddler's trying to get a present from Santa.

I didn't at the time. It was incredibly stressful trying to look after these kids. It was difficult. I bet. And I also read that you ran a newsagents briefly. Yeah, I owned a corner shop for a while. Yeah, I've always sort of been a bit entrepreneurial and always sort of driven like that.

So whenever opportunities came up, I used to go, I would always sort of dive in with two feet and try and make the most of it. Even if it doesn't necessarily go well or I don't get what I want out of it, I sort of am glad I have the experience. That didn't go great, obviously, but as I say I gave it a go, it didn't quite work, but

onwards and upwards to the next thing. Unlimited crisps, though? All I did was eat crisp apps. All I did, I put on so much weight. Crisp and cheese apps throughout the day. The crisp sandwiches, well I was going to say the crisp sandwiches underrated, truly. going to say the crisp sandwiches underrated. Truly.

I did mention the final series of Derry Girls. And how are you feeling about saying goodbye to it and saying goodbye to Michelle? It's kind of bittersweet because I think it's been such an amazing journey. And Lisa has written unbelievable material for season three. It's just, I think she just wrapped it up so beautifully for all of us. And I just hope the fans really enjoy it

and feel satisfied with it. But it is a bit sad to say bye. She's a big part of it. And also, I read that you said that, you know, when you play her, you can go full throttle ballistic. Yeah. I mean, you know what?

You get to play like a teenager who swears all the time and talks about well we can't say it on here but and then whenever I'm on set

with Lisa and Mike Mike the director they just kind of like just go for it just really go for that line and you just kind of it's just wee cogs in her head like okay how crazy

can I get this and that's such a beautiful feeling whenever you're on set and you're at a job you're sort of going to go just let loose and see what comes out of your mouth um and what will you take it it's it's so great and i won't miss that experience because it's just and again for lisa and my to trust us to do all that it has um it has excitement and it's something that i will miss

is there a line that's a complete favorite of yours because there are so many good ones that your character has given i think so far the ones that have aired is definitely the chat between me and James at the end about being a dairy girl. I think that's really iconic and it's something that I just absolutely love. But there is a couple in the new series that tops that in my opinion.

So I'm really excited. I imagine you'll just keep them forever with you in case you ever need them to just riff off. People shout them out in the street, which is nice. So that's always just a reminder. Depending on which ones they are, I imagine, if it's nice. But you know what, usually they're all on gas, so I'm happy enough.

In terms of you and your work now, of course, Derry Girls has been such a big thing for you. But how do you kind of cope and feel about people coming up to you in the street and recognising you and the whole fame thing? Do you know what? Usually people are really nice. Obviously, you get people who aren't that nice and sort of more entitled. And I think you would get that on any job you were doing. You know what I mean? You get people who are really lovely and really sort of polite and want to just say hello and then you know you just get people who aren't

and I think it's just sort of taking it taking it all in stride really at the start I wasn't really really overwhelmed I didn't know what to do

with it all if I'm honest and I think I mean coming from a working class background in D.A. you're not really prepared for everyone to know who you are

really quickly because it happened overnight after the first day I came out and as I say I think I'm just trying to find my feet with it I think I'm doing better now where I'm not everyone to know who you are really quickly. Because it happened overnight after the first ep came out. And as I say, I think I'm just trying to find my feet with it. I think I'm doing better now where I'm not getting as overwhelmed. But yeah, it's just one of those things.

I appreciate people love the show and want to tell me about it. So that's always nice. Well, if in doubt, Jamie Lee, just have a crisp sandwich and you'll feel better. Crisp, babe. Jamie Lee O'Donnell, thank you so much. Talking to us just ahead of her new six-part drama series, Screw, which begins tonight at nine o'clock on Channel 4. And of course, that final series of Derry Girls coming later this year.

Now, Dr. Lynn Berwick, MBE, has cerebral palsy quadriplegia and became totally blind at the age of 15. She also has partial hearing loss and is a permanent wheelchair user. She wasn't expected to live beyond her teens and has needed care 24-7 all her life. But now in her 70s, she still hasn't let it stop her. Lynne has been a fierce advocate and ambassador

for people with disabilities and their carers and has written a new book called On Account of Three, all about what it's like having a carer and what she thinks carers should know. And when I spoke to her, not on a brilliant line, I have to say, I asked her why she decided to write the book. I wanted to encourage people who are going into the care profession and care agencies and people like that to get the book and think of a different way that they could work, being much more aware of the needs of the clients and having

an empathy for the work because a lot of people are saying at the moment, oh, well, if you can't get a job, be a carer. And when I hear that, my heart sinks, because it isn't just doing a job because you don't have anything else to do. If they have that sort of attitude, then they shouldn't be a carer in the first place. And that's not something to be taken lightly, is it? It's an important job.

It is an important job. And I've had wonderful carers, but I've also had some god awful ones as well, where you want to pull your hair out and unfortunately I'm one of these people that have a lot of pain due to eye surgery and the fact that I have cerebral palsy quadriplegia. Can you explain what cerebral palsy quadriplegia is? Yes it's my own cause because I was born at three months premature, so I was in an oxygen tent for the first three months of my life, and that burnt my eyes and damaged my brain, causing me to have cerebral palsy quadriplegia, which means that it's affected both my hands and both my legs. And when you're dealing with movement of somebody with cerebral palsy, you should tell them what

you're going to do before you do it. For example, I'm going to move your left leg or I'm going to put your coat on your right arm. But if they suddenly grab hold of you, then you have a lot more difficulty and spasm. And have some of those been some of the memorable bad moments with carers? Yes. I can hear a wry laugh there. Yeah. Oh, no, I've had some absolutely horrendous carers

and I've had some fantastic ones as well. We'll come to the fantastic, because it's important to stress that as well. But just with the bad ones, I mean, do you say something? Is there an awkwardness there? How does that play out? Well, I certainly tell them yes, and I'm often not very popular, of course. And also the ones that have been carers for years, because they know all the problems, they don't listen to what you say.

And that's unfortunate because they often assume that all people with physical disability are the same. And of course, each one is an individual. And that's what I'm trying to express in the book. When the carers get it right, the ones who have done excellent work, how does that manifest itself? It just works like clockwork when you work together because caring is about having a relationship with your clients. And, you know, so you all, you work together. For example, I know when carers are going to be doing certain tasks, and I'll try and move my body to help them and things like that. So it can be very difficult, but it can work wonderfully well too. You write about a sense of guilt that you have as well.

What's that linked to? Well, I think initially it was a sense of guilt that I had knowing how my disabilities have affected the lives of my parents and people that I love. And obviously I'm very grateful to the carers when I'm not well and things go wrong for me. But I still feel guilty about that because I'm sure they'd much sooner be at their own home with their families instead of being stuck with me for 24 hours. I mean, that's a burden to carry around in itself as well as having to deal with the day-to-day.

Yes. I've always felt a sense of being a burden on people. But I'm still trying to live my life positively. Tell us about a couple of the jobs that you've had. Well, I started my working life as a switchboard operator with a city bank, the Commonwealth Bank of Australia. And I worked there for 13 and a half years. And then the bank decided to make me redundant at the time when my mother also worked there, and had to come up to retirement. And I was furious that they did that because I didn't want to leave work at 33 and although they gave me a pension which I'm very grateful for I didn't want to lose the work ethic

hmm there I got a job with disability now that was the leading disability newspaper and I was their counselor and I also did freelance journalism for them And then I did transcription work. Of course you did. I was about to say, you sound like you've had more than nine lives. Well, I don't know about that. But a lot of variety. And you also managed to meet a man along the way and marry your husband, Ralph. Ralph came to me originally as a counting client. And then he helped me do some voluntary work.

And then we eventually fell in love with each other and married. And we had a wonderful life together but then sadly Ralph developed Parkinson's and Lewy body dementia that was a most horrendous time for me trying to cope with his needs as well as my own. And I was also combining that with being a fully accredited Methodist preacher. So my life was very busy at that time. It certainly sounded. Yes, and I also helped raise more than two million pounds to build three holiday homes for people with disabilities, their families and carers, and they were purposely built by my original design, and they were

in Norfolk, Scotland and Cornwall, but sadly in the last week they have closed down and gone to other charities. The thing is, they're just nowhere for people who need a bed that you raise and lower for the carers. And I've been doing research with hotels in London, and there's actually only one hotel out of 200 hotels that is properly equipped for people with disability. I mean... Especially, I was going to say, Lynne, at a time where people have perhaps been thinking about holidaying in the UK because of the pandemic, never mind how things are abroad. You don't sound like a woman who will be easily deterred, though, or easily stopped, although I can hear that that frustration is real.

But with that in mind, and you mentioned it a bit earlier, how has the pandemic been for you? Well if it hadn't been for Steve here who was coming to help me three days a week or four days a week writing and stuff like that I would have been one of the most loneliest people in the world unfortunately and without Steve I would have been completely stuck. He has been my mainstay. He's given me my sanity day on day. Let's say hi to Steve. Hi, Steve. Can I say hello to him? Yes. Yes. Hello, Emma. Hi, Steve. Well, you sound like you've been a remarkable support and friend. Well, yes, I'm Lynn's PA, really. I'm her amanuensis. I write her books and things like that. I originally came thinking I was doing that job,

but it turned out that it was for a carer 24-7, and I'd never done that before. And she said, I just want someone to give me a life outside of these four walls. And I said, I think I can do that by taking you to London to lots of concerts. And we found this place called Changing Places that had hoists in them in London and we went and we did like we soon booked up 18 concerts at the Barbican and we went crazy you know so I became a carer for a year 24-7 week on week off And we had a good time.

And, you know, Lynne got out the house first time in months and months. Well done you and well done her. What a team. Yeah, yeah. But since then, I've gone on to the job that I thought was advertised. And that's what we do now.

Dr. Lynne Berwick there with her PA and one-time carer, Steve. Her book is called On a Count of Three. A big thanks to her and to him for talking to us about what's going on in their lives and their experiences. Well, what was life like for women 100 years ago? We know it was the era of the flappers, the suffragettes, but we can find out even more today with the unveiling of the 1921 census.

Details of the census are always kept secret for 100 years apart from broad statistics and our reporter Melanie Abbott spoke to Mary McKee from Find My Past which is the company running the 1921 census website. One record stood out for her that of a leading campaigner for women's suffrage. There are millions of interesting female names in the census but one of our favorites that we came across was Millicent Fawcett she is living with her sister who's the head of the household Agnes Garrett we also have a niece in the house and they have three servants so there's six people living in a 10-room house and does it show where she was living at that time?

Yes, she is at 2 Gower Street in Bloomsbury in London. Very central London then for anyone who knows Gower Street. Not that much residential there these days. We can also see on the census that Melisande has recorded herself as not occupied for a living and her sister, whom she's living with, is retired, but previously was a home decorator. A home decorator. Unusual occupation, you'd have thought, for a woman back then, perhaps?

You would be surprised what kind of occupations women had at the time. The 1921 census does show us a lot more women coming into particularly learned professions. We have more women barristers and solicitors. It is the first census that a policewoman is recorded as an occupation. There was a bit of stigma involved with divorce, of course, back in the 1920s. What did the census tell us about some of the prevailing views? What we have found is a few really interesting census schedules where individuals actually add their own comments or their own opinions about divorce at the time. So I have

two samples that I've brought out here. One, we have an individual living in a household with six people and the head of the household makes a comment on the schedule and writes at the bottom, I strongly object to the question of divorce being raised on this paper. I believe that divorce is a curse to the country. There's a green line through it, a green squiggle. The green was recorded by the numerator. So it definitely shows that he was not in favour of this individual adding his own personal opinion to the census return. But you've got another return in front of you here, written out in red pen very neatly. What's this one telling us?

Yes, the second schedule we have here is with Alfred Wright. Alfred did not shy away from the fact that he is divorced. He takes up the entire box for the marriage status with a very bold heavy D to indicate that he's divorced. And there's a footnote there I can see. In the footnote he does ask for the reformation of the divorce laws. Alfred has added in a comment then about the alienation and surrender of his four children and in parentheses he describes them as unrecognizable. So we're not entirely sure what he means by that statement, but he does go on to say that he doesn't have full rights to remarry. And it's possible that

what he means by unrecognizable is that he had these children maybe with a second partner who he hasn't been able to marry. Her entire return is covered on the front and the back. She's made notes. She's added additional notes to any of the instructions. She adds to the census form at the top to say that the census is, as she describes it, the numbering and classifying of English slaves. The only difference between the ordinary worker and a convict in England is that the worker may choose where to lay his head at night, and the convict's choice becomes the command of another. She filled in all the relevant information.

So we have everything that we need from a census form. So it was still collected just like any other census form counted. She has four mentions of her Persian cat named Lily, where you have to record your names. Below that, she adds also residing with one black kitten by the name of Lily, half-bred Persian. There you go. We'll get back to perhaps pets and women and choices in just a moment. That report from Melanie Abbott and that last census record you heard was being described about a woman called Constance. Dr Michaela Hume, a social historian and genealogist

from the University of Birmingham is on the line. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for having me on. Well, what is significant to you about this particular census? Yeah, I think as a historian and a genealogist, we wait a long time for census records. So and if you know anything about this census, you know that we're not going to get another one for 30 years. So we get very excited i've been up since two minutes past midnight researching all my ancestors trying to find out where they were so i'm fueled on orange squash today that's good to know we should just say there's not another one for for that many years because of a couple of incidents, correct? That's correct, yes. So the 1931 census was destroyed by fire

and there was no census taken during the Second World War. So the next census, which would be the 1951, we're not going to get until 2052. That's why we have this really long wait. There's also this extraordinary discrepancy about of course the number of women than men, presumably because of the First World War. Absolutely, yeah. And I suppose as a social document and how we kind of take pictures and take lessons from that, it is something to take note of. Absolutely, yes. So we have a couple of things going on at the time. We've obviously got

the impact of the First World War. We've also got the impact, and I'm sure your listeners are sick of hearing this word, pandemic. So the census, the number of people will be down because of the war and also because of the Spanish flu and the pandemic, which people are just getting over at the time that this census has been taken. It's kind of eerie, isn't pandemic, which people are just getting over at the time that this census is being taken. It's kind of eerie, isn't it? A hundred years on to be linking ourselves and thinking in this way of what had happened before. And what was mentioned there were occupations as well. And for women, what do we see there? And what do we see as the most common? The most common is still domestic service. So you can't get away from that most most women most

especially you know working-class women will still be employed in some way or other in domestic service however things are changing for women and i think that was brought up in your report so in 1919 we get the sex disqualification removal. And that means that women now can take up professions such as, you know, being a barrister or accountant, a magistrate. Also, women can now get a degree so they can go to university. So there are things happening for women. So that's why I think in your report, the lady from Fama Pass said, you know, we found women that are barristers and more sort of legal side. And that's because this comes in just sort of two years before the census is taken. But in terms of after the war, most women after this war do go back to what they were doing before the war. Yes. And so perhaps not as much change as you would expect across as many women.

In terms of just the first to mention, the first policewoman in 1921. That's correct. Yeah. The first policewoman. And if you are into your newspapers, which I am, it's great because there are actually loads of women at this time in 1920, actually not only in the police, but also getting degrees from university, which is great. You know, so there is this change happening for women. Yes. And some women. I was going to say also, of course, the campaign around suffrage and the vote. Yeah. So some women at this point over 30 if they qualified um had had the vote so this is quite significant on the census because on the 1911 census a lot of suffragettes deface the census because they thought well why should we fill in a census if you're not going to give us a vote

you don't class as a citizen why should we fill in this official government census so So they, you know, they sprawl all over it. I did a Who Do You Think You Are episode with somebody and their ancestor actually wrote on suffragette as their occupation on the 1911 census. Nice, strong, punchy, like that. Straight to the point. So, but on the 1921 census, we don't have so much of that. We have people still, you know not don't really like the

government and we'll make that clear on the census but we don't have this sort of defacing of the census of what we had in 1911 and filled by orange squash you've been checking out your your relatives and anyone else that you can um if you want to do the same you you go to the find my past website is that right that's correct yeah find my past have released the census it came out last night at one minute past 12 it does cost so it's not free and i will say this um i was researching my family tree in the night i picked up three or four different records that weren't my ancestors you don't know till you've actually paid so what i will say for anybody thinking of researching their family tree or even their home because you can search by address make sure you've got all the information ready so when you get your search results you can pick out who that person is or you've got the right house otherwise you don't do what i did you paid a bit of money to be nosy

into someone else's i mean that's fun too yeah right absolutely i have to say just before we bring today's program to a close uh we've got a lot of messages that have come in we're talking about how women live their lives off the back of the Pope's comments with regards to having children and pets. The Pope has come under fire and been supported by others talking about those who remain to opt to remain childless and then instead transfer their love to pets are selfish. A message here that I wanted to share that just came in before from Maria, who said, the Pope's making a deeper theological point. If you don't have faith, you won't get it or see it. But whatever, it's pointless discussing it in terms of politics

because he's not coming from that perspective. Another one from Penny here who says, I had a child at 43 and I'm absolutely overjoyed I did. I think it's a selfish act, but it's helped me become more selfless. I think that those that adopt do the real work in life. As I say, that's from Penny. And a message as a father of an adopted daughter, now 19, I think having more than one or two birth children is exceptionally selfish and against any values of collective responsibility that are now so important. There are children

that need fostering and adopting by adults with experience of raising children. Do that instead, says Tim. And then there are others just saying, I don't think we should be making these judgments of each other. It's highly personal. One here, I'm voluntarily childless. Having realised from the age of 12 I didn't want children, I've never regretted my decision, but have often been made to feel substandard by other women, not men.

I know you wanted to say something very briefly on this, Michaela. So I don't have kids. I've got a dog who's sat next to me who's a Michaela so I don't have kids um I've got a dog who sat next to me who's a nightmare but I don't have kids now part of that and I'll be very brief is because I'm a university lecturer we're on contracts they're year two year contracts three year contracts I can't afford to have a kid because if I have a kid I'm out for a year and then somebody else you know I might not get another contract and we've had some messages to that effect I have to leave it there That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time.

Join us again for the next one. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.