Woman's Hour - Jane Horrocks, Frances O'Grady, Iran, French women

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

Actor Jane Horrocks joins Krupa Padhy to discuss her new Radio 4 drama about her relationship with the singer-songwriter and actor Ian Dury. Jane had been looking back at her early adulthood, coming across old love letters from Ian and her own diary entries which inspired her to create the drama about their tumultuous one year relationship. We speak to Frances O'Grady, the outgoing General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress who leaves after a decade in the job. She talks to Krupa Padhy about the current wave of industrial action across the public sector, the highs and lows of the job and her plans for the future as she prepares to join the House of Lords as a Labour Party peer.Following ongoing nationwide protests, the Iranian government has intensified its crackdown. Two men have been executed since the beginning of the month, and local human rights activists say at least 328 people have been killed and nearly 15,000 others have been detained, as of last month. One of those arrested at the weekend is Taraneh Alidoosti, one of Iran’s best known actresses. Krupa is joined by Saba Zavarei from the BBC Persian Service and Dr Rowena Abdul Razak who teaches international history at the London School of Economics and specialises on Iran. When you hear the phrase 'the French woman' what comes to your mind? Maybe you think of a sexy accent, fashionable clothes, perhaps the word 'chic'? With the return of Netflix's Emily in Paris we wanted to look at the stereotype of the French woman. Do these ideals hold or is it, to borrow a French word, just a cliché? To discuss Krupa is joined by the Director Charlotte Seegers whose film She's French explores these ideas, and also by the UK based French journalist Marie Le Conte.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Patti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and thank you for joining us this morning. In the coming days, ambulance drivers, nurses, driving examiners and highway workers will be just some of those who will be striking. Add to that a fresh walkout by postal workers and further strikes on the railways. Gearing up for the festive season may be all the more challenging.

One woman who has been at the heart of this action is the outgoing General Secretary of the Trade Union Congress, Frances O'Grady, who joins us later on the programme. Also, in a time of WhatsApps, emails and text messages, is the age of the love letter no more? We speak to Jane Horrocks, who, for a new radio drama, has brought back to life love letters and diary entries to the late singer and songwriter Ian Dury.

Jane, as we will learn, stumbled across the letters in her loft whilst having a good old declutter. Maybe you've done the same. What have you done with your old love letters or journals from your younger days? stumbled across the letters in her loft whilst having a good old declutter. Maybe you've done the same. What have you done with your old love letters or journals from your younger days? How have you felt when you've looked back at them? And how has time changed your feelings towards them? What have you learnt about yourself?

I'd love to get your thoughts on this. You can text the programme. That number is 84844. Over on social media, you'll find us on the handle at BBC Woman's Hour. That's on Twitter and Instagram. You can email us through our website. And of course, you can send us a WhatsApp message or an audio note via the number 03700100444. Also, love it or loathe it, Emily in Paris is back on Wednesday for its third season on Netflix. The series, for some, has opened a conversation about the stereotypes surrounding the French woman. Everything from their fashion sense to their parenting styles. So we're going to break down some of those stereotypes with the help of the filmmaker, Charlotte Sigus,

and the French journalist, Marine Leconte. Do stay with us for all of that. But we are going to start this programme in Iran. It's just over three months since the death in police custody of a 22-year-old Kurdish woman, Masa Amini. She was detained for allegedly failing to adhere to headscarf rules in Iran. You may have been following these nationwide protests, which represent one of the most serious challenges,

if not the most serious challenge to the Iranian regime since it came to power back in the 1979 revolution. However, the government has intensified its crackdown on these protesters. Two men have been executed since the beginning of the month, and local human rights activists say at least 328 people have been killed, and nearly 15,000 others have been detained as of last month. Now, one of those arrested just on the weekend was Taraneh Alidousti, one of Iran's best known actresses. And to find out more what has happened, I'm joined now by Sabah Zavareh from the BBC's Persian service. Welcome to Women's Hour, Sabah. Can you start by telling us who Taraneh Al-Adusti is,

just how influential she is? Hi, thank you so much for having me on your programme. Taraneh Al-Adusti, as you said, is one of the most famous actresses in Iran and she's also a very international face. She's been attending so many numerous international ceremonies and awards. And she's not just very influential and very famous. She's also very much loved and popular because in so many different occasions, she has decided to, she's chosen to be the voice of women the voice of

protesters so she is known for being outspoken so a high profile celebrity essentially what do we know has happened to her or what took place over the weekend i believe it was saturday when she was arrested yes she was arrested and she was taken to evvin Prison in north of Tehran. And since then, every day, many actors and people from the cinema scene, they've been gathered there. A lot of high profile famous people have been gathered to know what's happening. So far, she hasn't been released. But there's been no word from her family or friends about what took place on Saturday when those authorities came to her home. They went to their home and we know that their house was searched. They said later that they've been looking for documents because she was condemning the

executions and they said they've been looking for documents in her house. What I find interesting is that, and I wonder whether you agree with this, is that this tends to tie into a growing trend almost by the authorities to be targeting high profile Iranian celebrities. Exactly. So in a movement that doesn't have a central or focused leadership, these famous figures and popular figures are very important when they support it. They give a much louder voice, especially internationally, to the protests. So they are targeting them in sports, in cinema, in arts. And we've been seeing that at various sporting tournaments globally around the world as well.

In particular, Taraneh posted online where she's holding this poster and it's written in Kurdish and it says the words Women, Life and Freedom. How significant is this? That photo is very significant in many ways. So first of all, she's removed her hijab. So we need to know that actresses in Iran are under tremendous pressure for every act of their daily life. So in the past, they've been told off for shaking hands with men in international festivals. Just for that, they've been forced to apologize to people

for not confirming the strict Islamic rules. So removing the forced hijab is like a very different scale. And when she does that, I think it's very, very important because also we saw like so many other people following that act and just removing their hijab. But also she's chosen to hold the slogan in Kurdish, and I think that's quite important. That shows that she acknowledges the intersectionality of these movements

that are happening in Iran, and she understands the extra oppression that is happening on the minorities. I think it would be useful just to explain a bit more about that, what you call a kind of separation almost, that tension between the Kurdish community, which Masa Amini held from, and the mainstream Iranian population? So there is so much. I mean, for the past decades, there have been additional oppression and additional atrocities on the ethnic minorities, including Baloch people, Kurdish people. And in this round of protests, which we enter the fourth month now, we also see like a much heavier crackdown in Balochistan and also in Kurdistan. Thank you so much, Sabah, for giving us that insight as to what has happened to Taranee Ali Dosti.

Well, in her Instagram post, she wrote every international organization who is watching this bloodshed and not taking action is a disgrace to humanity. That was on Instagram. And I'm keen to understand better how this is playing out in the international community. To do so, I'm joined now by Dr. Rowena Abdul-Razak, who teaches international history at the London School of Economics and specializes on Iran. Thanks for your time, Dr. Rowena. Your response to, first of all, what has happened to Taraneh? Thank you so much for having me. I don't want to repeat too much about what Sabah said.

I think Sabah has looked, has described the outrage around Taraneh's arrest very well. What I'm very interested in is the international response that's going to come out of this. The fact that they've targeted someone that is very well known in Hollywood, very well known among the cinema scene outside of Iran, I think that's going to provoke a response, even more of a response among celebrities outside of Iran. And I think that's just going to place

even more international pressure on the regime. But we've already seen a number of high profile celebrities globally speaking out against this. I mean, I wonder what it's going to take for more concrete international reaction, in your opinion, or action rather. Oh, definitely. I mean, that's this one thing about the protests is just really galvanized everyone beyond Iran and different structures of society, which has been amazing. But I think Taraneh's, you know, being an actress herself, I think it's just going to keep that going, keep that momentum going, which is important. Sanctions have already been introduced, targeted ones, of

course, so as not to disturb the ordinary lives of iranian citizens but in terms of more concrete responses it there have been calls for european governments to call back the diplomats but i think that's just going to isolate iran further um i think it it's a very we're in a very tricky situation because anything more any other kind of sanctions might affect the Iranian people and that's not something that I think the international community wants but in terms of concrete responses I think it may have to be pushed even further just to set more pressure. And of course we're seeing now these executions we're hearing of hundreds of more people who are facing the same fate. Is that

going to change things or build on that pressure on various international governments? Oh, definitely. I think it's going to make governments who are dealing with Iran at this point think twice about how they approach the Iranian government. These executions, these horrible executions, are very much part of the regime's sinister route since the protests began. I think it will probably definitely... This pressure is very important. It's important to assert that pressure.

Things like human rights organizations, Amnesty International. So it actually brings the cause of the Iranian people to an even wider audience, audiences who have never been touched before. So I think it's important to keep that going. I mean, what I'm keen to better understand from your expertise is what the options are, because you mentioned sanctions there. We know from history that sanctions in Iran are seriously impacting ordinary people, often the poorest people inside the country. Beyond sanctions, beyond condemnation, what are the options that international powers have to put pressure on Iran?

To be honest, there will be a limit because ultimately the Iranian people who have to keep that momentum going, international governments short of intervention, which is I think where nobody wants to go to, not even the Iranian people, would be too much. I think keeping that momentum, keeping that pressure consistent is very important because that

will help the and help keep the momentum going among the Iranian protesters because it's a very public and a very grassroots movement. You need to keep inspiring them and you need to keep that momentum going because the regime is oppressing them so badly. So it's important for the international community, for international governments, to keep that pressure on the government itself because I think that's all the ingredients that we can do. And ultimately, it's the Iranian people who have to have their say

and have what they want. They have to push for it themselves. Yes, and as I was hearing from a guest I spoke to last week, that this story will be written by the people on the streets of Iran. Just briefly, on the role of Russia specifically, the US has expressed concern about

increased collaboration between these two countries. How do you understand it? I think Russia and Iran's relationship go back a long time. It's decades, if not longer. These two powers who unfortunately are very repressive regimes, very violent in their response to its people, I think they definitely encourage each other in some way. And because of that relationship with Russia, because of the ongoing war, Russia needs Iran.

So the Iranian government has some sort of international standing, maybe not in the way that we accept it, but one that does exist nonetheless. Having said all that, the pressure of the protest is affecting the iranian economy so regardless of that relationship with russia eventually they will be um internal pressures and i think that relationship with russia will no longer be relevant because the um the economy is not doing very well regardless of that of that ties there is so much to keep understanding about this movement but for now thank you dr row, Dr. Rowena Abdul-Razak from the London School of Economics there with her insights on what has happened inside Iran

with the arrest of that high profile actress, Taraneh Ali-Dusti. We will keep following that story closely. Meanwhile, here in the UK, the ongoing strikes across the public sector have impacted us all in terms of transport, hospital appointments or postal delays. And the situation isn't going away anytime soon with more workers taking action in the coming days. One woman who's been at the heart of this action is the outgoing general secretary of the Trades Union Congress, Frances O'Grady.

The TUC is the umbrella group for unions. It represents millions of workers. And Frances leaves after 10 years at the helm on New Year's Eve, and she'll be starting a new chapter as a Labour peer in the House of Lords. Luckily for us, she's taken time out of her day to come and join me here in the studio this morning to look back at her time in office. Good to have you here, Frances. Thank you very much. Why don't we start with you going back to 2013, the first woman in the 154-year history of the TUC to hold that top job, that top job, rather. How significant was it then for a woman to get this job? Well, it took a long time.

154 years, yes. Far too long. But it was a fantastic feeling because there was so much support from women and men. And it was an opportunity, I think, to show that the trade union movement is 50-50, men and women. In fact, women are more likely to belong to a union and maybe bring some different life experiences to that role and show that, you know, an ordinary woman from an ordinary background can do it too, hopefully. And it's almost a decade in that role. I mean, has that journey evolved,

I imagine, in many ways? It's been pretty intense, hasn't it? I mean, for everybody, you know, we've had lots of elections, we've had Brexit, we've had a global pandemic and now a strike wave of workers who are voting for strike action with a really heavy heart but want to protect themselves against pay cuts because they just can't afford it. And you personally, how does it feel to be leaving at such a pivotal time as you've just mentioned it there? I've got really mixed feelings because for me personally, the thing that's always kept me going is meeting reps and members. And we have such decent people who just want to do the right thing, want to look after their families, want to earn a decent wage and decent conditions at work, but are often very proud of the jobs that they do and want to do their best. But they've had 12 years of pay freezes and real pay cuts. And as I say, with a very heavy heart, people are saying we have no choice. I think we're seeing that with the NHS in particular when I speak to NHS staff

who feel that when we've got one in three public sector workers actively considering quitting the job, because frankly, they could find another job on better pay and less stress, but don't want to give up on their vocation, but just feel they don't have any choice. I mean, we've got food banks opening on hospital sites. Something has gone really wrong. And I think the government needs to come to the table and negotiate. And I do want to unpick some of what you've just talked about there. But in

terms of the kind of wider scale, you've mentioned it there, just how significant a time it is. I mean, Dave Ward, the General Secretary of the Communication Workers Union has said the scale of the unrest that we are seeing at the moment, both in the public and private sectors means the country has effectively met the definition of a general strike. Would you agree with that? Well, it's not a general strike because groups of workers have to vote on each industrial dispute. But what is true is that we've got many strikes, but the same cause. I mean, we're seeing it in Amazon this week, in Coventry, workers who were told they'd get a 50 pence an hour increase, nowhere near the rate of inflation, which is still nearly 11 percent and higher for RPI, if you take into account mortgages. And just saying they, you know, amazing, they are going to take strike action if the employer won't negotiate with them. And right from the likes of Amazon to the NHS, to border guards, to posters, rail workers,

we're seeing people saying enough is enough. Are there, in your opinion, any workers who should not be striking? Well, the right to strike is a really important international right. It was something that was agreed after the First World War by the ILO, which is the labour arm of the United Nations. And everybody knows nobody wants to go on strike, and it can cause real difficulties for people. But you have to have that fundamental liberty. Otherwise, some employers just simply won't come to the table. And as I say, we're seeing that with government ministers right now, ignoring our new women leaders of trade unions representing predominantly female workforces,

and they're ignoring them and saying, we're not prepared to discuss pay with you. But I do recognise what you're saying about everyone having the right to strike. But in some cases, we're talking about roles where it's a matter of life and death, where people's lives are at stake. And that's why unions in emergency services, for example, have always had what we call life and limb agreements, which are to protect the most vulnerable. And that's something that staff do voluntarily

because they care about the service. In fact, many of the people I speak to are motivated. There's much about the worry that if we don't pay people properly, especially after everything they've been through in the Covid pandemic, the more and more people will leave the service and the service will get worse and worse for all of us. And they have a really strong sense that they're defending the NHS and our fire service, you know, many other critical public services as much as trying to be able to afford to pay the bills this winter. But that, Frances, will be a concern that many people are facing.

Those who are not at the top ranks of their industry. You know, purses are tight, money is tight for lots of people across the board. And that's why, you know, I think we've seen unprecedented public support for people forced to take strike action because everybody's facing the same problems. But in some sectors more than others though, nurses certainly, but there are other sectors where support isn't as strong as it might have been. It's not as strong as it is for nurses, which after all is the most trusted profession in Britain and I think the government would be wise to remember that. If it comes to a choice

between trusting a nurse and trusting a government minister, I think I know where the public are. But there has been real support. And I think it's because people understand that a win for one is a win for all, that it will help everybody if we lift living standards in this country. It's important for the economy as well, because we've got an economy that depends on demand. And if people don't have money in their pockets, then that demand will get hit. And we're particularly seeing this with small businesses and consumer facing businesses, that simply people can't afford to buy their goods and services and they risk going out of business. So we need a plan from the government for good, fair growth that everybody benefits from. What we're seeing at the moment, of course, is the government lifting the cap on bankers bonuses.

We've seen profits soar. We've seen dividend payouts to shareholders rise at three times the rate of wages. So more and more wealth is being sucked to the top. The government do say that they are reviewing various pays with independent pay review bodies. And that is what we keep hearing from the ministers. And I know you think this needs to be looked at again in the immediate future.

You say that these recommendations are based on or were based on low inflation figures from 2021. And your job, therefore, is to get them back to that negotiating table. It certainly is. And I think the government should stop hiding behind pay review bodies and using them as a human shield. But more than that, I would ask, I'd ask today for members of pay review bodies to stand up and be counted, to explain that when they were doing their deliberations, the Treasury said that inflation would peak at 4%. That's what the Treasury told them. But that these are only recommendations, and the government sets the funding envelope. So it's unfair for the

government to almost blame the independent pay review bodies when the government sets the remit. And I think members of pay review bodies now need to stand up and be counted and explain to the public that these are only recommendations. In fact, back in 2014, you know, the health pay review bodies recommendation was rejected by the then health secretary who is one Jeremy Hunt now the chancellor so government can pick and choose. They do have the capacity indeed but of course these individuals on these pay review bodies will say we're just there to give the numbers we're made up of economists experts in human resources we're there on merits we're not there to play any political role so asking them to stand up and voice their concern about this. I think the problem is they're already being used for political purposes. And I

think to protect the integrity of what they do, because I have to say that the credibility of pay review bodies is now under great strain. And that's a warning I would give too that unless people stand up and explain their role, their remit who really sets the funding envelope who actually decides whether to accept those recommendations and make it clear that government has a choice and they should show people like Pat Cullen and Christina McAnee the respect of negotiating with them. You know I wrote to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor back in early November asking for an urgent meeting

because I could see what was coming down the track. They still haven't met me. What will it take, in your opinion? Where is the stumbling block? Because we've even heard, I mean, you've got, you said that you've written to the Prime Minister, Steve Barclay just this morning, you know, I'm willing to meet, but I'm not willing to talk about pay. What do you think it's going to take for those for those discussions to be reignited?

I would really urge the government to think seriously. is political pot shots, demonisation of Mick Lynch, the rail leader, that doesn't wash because people know he's just a decent man who's worked on the railways for decades, who was elected to represent his members. So instead of these kind of puerile insults that we're seeing in the press, let's draw a line. And let's just be honest, that was the BBC as well,

because specifically, Mick Lynch did say just last week, he did accuse the BBC of parroting right-wing propaganda in its coverage of these rail strikes. In particular, when asked about the financial sacrifice striking workers were making, he said that admiration was not being shown for the fight that working people are putting up in this country for the rebalancing of our society. And that was him speaking to BBC Radio 4.

I'm keen to get your thoughts. You just touched on it there on the media coverage of the strikes. Do you agree with Mick Lynch? that the newspapers in this country have different political views and the majority are owned by a very small number of very rich men like Mr Murdoch who have a particular political viewpoint. And that, of course, can influence other media. But what I'm interested in is the government

taking responsibility for solving these disputes rather than just, you know, trying, I think, inflaming them from the sidelines. Let's draw a line under that. Let's agree to meet to discuss pay and let's sort it out because, you know, governments are there to serve the people. Workers are part of the public. You know, we have families too. We all want this resolved. It just takes goodwill and good faith and a bit of maturity to solve it.

All those are ongoing. We're going to see how that unfolds in the coming days and weeks. Meanwhile, you've also got a new chapter in the coming weeks and the new year as well. You've got a new role. But first of all, we'll talk about that in a moment. But I also want to talk about, again, your time

and during that time, how more women have made it to the top of the trade union movement. In fact, the head of the two largest unions, Christina McInerney at Unison and Sharon Graham at Unite. As you leave this specific sector, what difference do you think that is making? Oh, I think it makes a huge difference. You're smiling, yes. Because, well, it cheers me up, for one, and I think it cheers up lots of women to see women doing well in any walk of life,

but also such brilliant women who, by the way, are brilliant negotiators. So it's good to see. I think we all bring those experiences because, you know, I'm never going to forget what it was like to work part time and bring up kids, try and manage the two, to be having sleepless nights about what I did when childcare arrangements broke down. All of that is part of my thinking. And it's one of the reasons why I think it's so great to have diversity at the top, because, you know, it brings all those experiences to the table.

And for a lot of people, you know, it is about obviously, we all need enough money to live on but it is also about the quality of working life and that matters too and it certainly made a big difference to me personally to work with such brilliant people over the last 10 years. Whilst we were talking we've had this message in from Julia who says it's increasingly on my mind that not everyone has the industrial muscle to use the strike weapon. What about people in zero hour contracts? If the powerful unions secure better pay for their members, whilst others are on very low pay cannot exert the same pressure. Won't it just widen the inequality gap in society? Well, that's why it's so important to tackle the root causes of the problems we face as a country

rather than just the symptoms. So the trade union movement has been calling for a long time to ban those practices like fire and rehire, zero hours contracts, bogus self-employment, but critically to encourage people to join the trade union because we have more power when we join together. And we've seen that with union breakthroughs in Uber, in Deliveroo, and of course at Amazon, that if we do join together, we can start getting a fair deal. As I was steering towards a moment ago, you've got just days left in this job.

You leave on January the 12th, rather. You will have a new title. Yes. What is that new title? I'm not really comfortable with the... It's like you're reluctant sharing ceremony but i know that i want to do my bit the government is proposing to attack that fundamental british liberty the right to strike and other workers rights and so i want to do my bit to try and

encourage them shall we say to again, because it's wrong. You know, the problem is in Britain isn't that ordinary working people have too much power. It's not that ordinary working people are greedy. People just want fair rights and a fair deal. And that's what I want to do. But I'd also I'm also very interested in the Gordon Brown proposals to replace the House of Lords with the Senate of the Nations and Regions. And I think that that's exciting, the idea of an elected House that, you know, has a very clear role. It's not a substitute for the House of Commons, and it mustn't be a rival to it. But it is important to have the voices of our nations and regions

all in one place. I think that would be good. I mean, overall, the Labour Party's relationship with the unions has shifted since its founding days. How do you see it going forward? Oh, Labour's committed to what it's calling a new deal for working people that will provide day one rights for every working person, will provide a good status, and what they're calling fair pay agreements on an industry basis where employers unions and where relevant the government come together and agree minimum

standards really for whole industries and they want to start with social care which I feel really strongly about. And so in light of that would you say that Labour supports the current strikes? Oh I think Labour supports a fair deal for working people. But, you know, we've got different jobs to do. I accept that. And it's the job of the trade union movement to make that case, to come to sensible and fair agreements on paying conditions. That's our job. And, you know, we're determined to get that fair deal. And I really hope people understand that this is after, you know, 12 years of pay being frozen or cut in real terms. People have had it up to here and they're quietly determined to see this one through. So if there's any, you know, again, this kind of puerile discussion of who's going to blink first that it's not a game this is

people's working lives we're talking about and these are people who were described as pandemic heroes and deserve respect and dignity. Frances O'Grady thank you so much for your time here on Woman's Hour and good luck with the next chapter. A response here from the government urging the unions to call off the strike Mr Dowden told the BBC's Sunday with Laura Koonsberg, we will be resolute to this because it would be irresponsible to allow public sector pay and inflation to get out of control. And we owe a wider duty to the public to make sure we keep our public finances under control. Challenged about the government's reluctance to engage on pay,

the cabinet minister in charge of contingency planning for strikes said the government was i quote always willing to talk we're trying to be reasonable we're trying to be proportionate and we're trying to be fair he said and he added that the government was trying to take the politics out of the issue of pay by accepting the nhs reviews body recommendations thank you so much to francis that is another story that we will be keeping an eye on this week. Now, have you made a decision to leave a job and felt that the ending went much better than you expected? In the new year, we'll be discussing the art of quitting well. We're keen to hear your experiences. Sometimes leaving is just the right thing to do, but it's risky, particularly when energy and food bills are rising. And is it possible to leave without burning bridges or letting down former colleagues when you walk out the door for the last time?

How did you quit well and what happened next? Do let us know. You can text Women's Hour 84844. And you can also send us an email as well or on social media. We are at BBC Womenc women's hour you can get that address over on our website now i also want to bring in just before i go to our next conversation the many messages that many of you are sending in related to journals and diaries that we are going to talk about towards the end of the program let me start with this one that says, I kept a diary in 1976,

cataloguing my first love. I kept letters he wrote when he worked abroad. Although we separated, we got back together 38 years later. Reading the diary gave us many good laughs, especially the descriptive language and reading about our friends and day-to-day life. It struck me how immature I was at age 18 and also how sure I was of my opinions. Cringeworthy, I'm sure that's a term that many people would share about their diaries and love letters when they look back. This one from Kad who writes,

morning, related to love letters and journals. On the week I was due to leave Brighton after university, after living there for just over three years and a whole world shift in that time, fun, people, parties and life changes i sat on the carpet in my house and read through four big books of notes diaries and memories then promptly burnt them all i couldn't bear the thought of anyone reading i have kept actual love letters

from people who have sent as somehow they're different but horrifically cringy again the word cringy to read my own writings do keep keep those coming in. And burning diaries, burning love letters. What have you resorted to when you have stumbled across them? slender frame no matter what they eat whatever it is the stereotype of the french woman is used by advertisers in books and films and even in one rather iconic scene in the bbc comedy fleabag when claire gets a bald haircut i look like a pencil you you don't look like it's okay it's not okay i'm gonna lose my job don't lose your job it's cool it's not cool It's not OK. I'm going to lose my job. You won't lose your job. It's cool. It's not cool. It's edgy. Oh, f*** with she.

It's unsalvageable. Claire, it's French. Really? Yes. It's French. That suffices. Well, with the return this week of Netflix's Emily in Paris, which sees an American woman hired to give her perspective to a Parisian marketing firm. We wanted to look at the stereotype of the French woman.

Do these ideals hold or is it, to borrow a French word, just a cliché? To discuss, I'm joined by the filmmaker and director Charlotte Seegers, whose film She's French explores these ideas, and also by the UK-based French journalist Marie Leconte. Good to have you both with us. Hi. Hi. Let us start with you, Charlotte.

Your film explores a lot of these themes. Where do you think this idea of the French woman comes from? Well, there's not really one person or one industry that creates them. It's just created all the time. So by everyone. So, I mean, the film explore that and it says that it comes from the film industry with the new way, for example, with Brigitte Bardot, but also how to book all the fashion houses. But I mean, it keeps being created all the time.

It keeps being created and recreated all the time. Marie, does that ring true to you? I know it does, absolutely. And I think it is quite funny the kind of idea people have about French people and French women, including, you know, British people who have friends who are French, like yours truly. I think that there's nearly kind of, you know, an aspect in which people actually want to have those cliches and actually enjoy creating this image of the French woman, even though they know deep down, you know, they're not stupid. That's not what French women really are like. Do any of them fit, though?

Any of them? Well, I suppose I do prefer charcuterie to sweet food, which many British friends over the years have made fun of me for. And I do usually have a beret stuck at the bottom of my bag for when it rains. So I'll give them that, but not much more, I'll be honest. Charlotte, you grew up in France. You worked for a decade in London. Do you think the British in particular have a very specific idea of the French woman. Yeah, well, this stereotype is very Parisian, first of all. Like, I come from the countryside and I can say that it's really far away from the people living there.

Also, it's kind of chic and white, very white also. So, I mean, it really represents, I don't even know if it really exists. I think it's just a construction, really. Well, that's it. It's less French and more Parisian, to be specific. Yes. And that's possibly what's coming across in Emily in Paris, which I know hasn't gone down very well

with a lot of French people who insist that they find it somewhat offensive. Marie, let me tell on its head there. Charlotte has worked in London. What reaction do you get, Marie, when you're in the UK and you say you're French? Well, to be honest, the first thing I normally get is, oh, you're French. You don't really sound it, which always amuses me, especially when people have seen my name, because Marie Lecomte does somewhat feel that there are clues here and apart from that I think that there's not much I do like so the thing I do enjoy is that whenever I'm in

Britain I'll wear you know whatever it is I wear and I'll have friends saying oh god you know you look so British uh so French sorry but then I'll go back to France and hang out with my French friends there and again dress in the exact same way and they'll go oh Marie you look so British so so I do think there's a slight thing as well on both sides of the channel where each side has this image or wants to have this image of what the other side is like um which is just quite amusing and also I imagine that a lot of these stereotypes are age old and France has changed it is changing it is becoming increasingly diverse I mean how did you do you think that impacts this these stereotypes? That's a really good question. I'm not sure it does that much of the problem.

Obviously, I'm speaking as a mixed race person to start with. I think as Charlotte was pointing out, I think the French woman cliche, she's very thin. She's obviously white. She lives in Paris. She's very middle class. So, yeah, I suppose that perhaps people traveling more and maybe going to France and actually not necessarily just going to Paris, actually going to different bits of France means that they realise that actually, you know, not all of France is like the 16th arrondissement in Paris, the kind of really posh bit, which may mean that actually

on the longer term, I think people may still have those clichés as more of a fun thing, but actually they do know that again you know France is not the way it is portrayed in popular culture or you know kind of like comedies etc Charlotte we know that French film has

global appeal your film in particular looks at the influence of the actress Brigitte Bardot and her sex appeal and allure I mean do you think that created this idealized version of the French woman? Well, yes. But I mean, this stereotype, as Marie was saying, is very old. And I think it is changing with time.

So what matters here is that this stereotype is outdated and not really inclusive. So I think with time, this idealized version will change and will be something else. I don't think Brigitte Bardot has such an impact today. But Emily in Paris certainly does. So I'm wondering how you feel these kind of serious. Yes. What kind of an impact do you think that has on the ongoing stereotypes well i think that um actually it's very important to point out that it's outdated and not inclusive because it can hurt people by making them strive for an ideal

that is not theirs so for example some girls in the film talk about the problem of bleaching their skin or even not having any sense of belonging. And the sense of belonging is very important for every one of us. So it looks very not important, but it's actually very important. Words and images are very important. Marie, all you have to do is pick up a glossy magazine and you'll often find something about the French woman in there. It might be the fashion, skincare regime, parenting techniques. But let's stay with fashion. Do you think there is such a thing as a French look?

I mean, an article in British Vogue yesterday had the headline four French women share their winter skincare heroes. So I do have to say that actually, I have an incredibly complicated skincare routine, different in the morning and evening, obviously. So I can't, you know, fine, I'm holding my hands up. You know, I do. I am that sort of French woman. So on the fashion, I do think, I mean, specifically, I think between Britain and France, there is a difference. And I think, you know, and I still see it now. So I've been living in Britain for 13 years now and the kind of running joke I have with myself is that occasionally I'll get dressed for a party and think you know I'm going all out I'm going you know out out I'm going to wear something that's

quite revealing quite daring and I'll kind of leave the house thinking to myself god you know I'm so sexy god I'm showing so much skin and literally every single time between on the walk between my flat and the tube station I will see four women clearly just going to the shops and wearing considerably less than I am and I'm like 13 years and still actually my sort of you know sense of what counts as kind of daring and revealing is still incredibly French and not British so so there are certainly differences, I think, there. On the revealing aspect, though, because I was, I certainly wasn't Emily in Paris, but I was 21 in Paris and that was one of my first jobs when I was living there

and working there. And I certainly felt very much the same, that French women just didn't dress up or didn't need to make as much effort as I was. I mean, I had the high heels on and certainly a skirt above the knee, which I wasn't seeing when I was out and about in Paris oh yes no and I think so the one example that always comes to mind is I went to Paris to visit some friends a few years ago and it was just the summer and I was wearing some dress actually a dress that fun fact I'd worn

to be on BBC News once so again really not a sort of party dress you know walking around with my friend um and at some point I asked I was listen, like people on the terraces are staring at me. What's going on? Is there something on my face? Is there something in my hair? And she said, well, no, you know, it's just quite, you know, it's quite a suggestive dress, isn't it? So that's probably why people are staring. And again, you know, in London, this is something I've worn to discuss politics on national television. So I do think that, yeah, that the fashion is probably still actually quite different between the two countries. It certainly is.

Look, good to chat to both of you. Thank you so much, Charlotte Seegers and Marie Lecomte. And like I said, Emily in Paris returns on Wednesday for yet another season. We've been hearing your reflections on your younger selves. Now for the voices of some current teenagers. In an occasional series called Girls Loud, Enna Miller went to school in Glasgow to talk to Olivia, Francesca and Saskia,

who are all 13, and she asked them about their finances and what they do for fun. I get weekly pocket money if I do chores, so it's usually organising the kitchen or something, like doing a cupboard or something that hasn't been cleaned in a while, cleaning my cat's litter tray or cleaning the bathroom. My daddy also gives me pocket money, but because I don't stay with him 24-7, he just kind of gives me it and he's like,

there you go, here's a treat. And I appreciate that. Honestly, I wish it was kind of easy to get a job because I want to get money. And it's really hard when you're this age because no one wants to hire you because you're 14 years old and even if you plead to them and you give them all the good reasons like oh I'm amazing like I can clean for you I can be like no you're too young. I want to get my first job as soon as possible because I want to start saving

my money but then I also want to be able to like buy things I want so I don't have to wait like four months or I don't have to wait till my birthday to get it. Your only options are sweeping up hair in a hairdresser's or just standing at the side and getting paid like two pounds an hour. Usually I just kind of go around the old relatives really do you have any work I can do like around the house anything you want me to help with and then they'll be like yeah I can you can do this for like 10 pounds and I'll be like, yeah, OK, sure. I really enjoy cleaning. I love cleaning. When I was thinking of activities, I didn't think cleaning was going to be...

Keeping my room tidy, I should have hoovered, but my dog's in a shedding season right now, so if I hoover my carpet, literally two seconds later, there's fur all over again. But I like it being fresh, so at night I usually light a candle. I always make my bed. If I don't make my bed, I'm not good in school. I literally have to make my bed.

Decorating my room is something I do a lot. A lot of the time I just take down all the photos on my wall and I try to reorganise them until I'm finally happy and it'll only last a little bit I love like wiping down desks and like washing the dishes and rearranging the fridge and like yeah I don't know like grandma activities yeah but I just enjoy it because it's very peaceful and I can just put on music in the background and anything else that you like to do baking cooking because I feel like it's very peaceful and I can just put on music in the background and anything else that you like to do baking cooking because I feel like it's my love language cooking and baking for my grandparents I'll make them super banana bread or like cupcakes or something like that

Anna Miller there in conversation with Olivia, Francesca and Saskia as part of the Girls' World series here on Woman's Hour. Now, I asked you at the beginning of the programme whether you've got old letters or diaries from when you were younger that you look back upon just to get a flavour of what life was like back then. Many of you have been in touch. I'm going to read a few more towards the end of the programme. My next guest, Jane Horrocks, recently found letters and her personal diary entries that made her think again

about her relationship with the singer and songwriter Ian Dury. Ian is probably best known for his song Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick and his somewhat volatile tempo, but Jane knew a different side to him from leading roles in films such as Little Voice and TV, including Absolutely Fabulous and the current drama Bloods. Jane has had a wide ranging career and now she's written a drama about her relationship with Ian called Love Pants, which is which is being broadcast here on Radio 4 this week. She joins me now. Good to have you here, Jane. Take us back to that moment when you found those letters from Ian well I knew that I had the letters in my loft somewhere um I moved house at the beginning of this year so I unearthed the letters again and um was just kind of quite astounded about

how beautiful they were and um I mean Ian was a wordsmith as we most of us know and but to see these letters and how his use of words and they show a very very tender side of him which I don't think maybe a lot of you know people fans of his may be may be aware of actually so um yeah it was uh it kind of encouraged me to go and find my diary entries and around that time to see what how they kind of correlated and um uh it was yeah yeah, I sort of remembered the relationship as only being toxic and turbulent. But actually, when I read the diary entries and the letters, I realized that there was a real strong connection between the two of us. And, yeah, I mean, I kind of thought, actually, this made an interesting piece to show, you know, these two people at very different stages in their lives, you know, kind of going through this journey together. One of our listeners also has a bundle of love letters from their 20s stuffed in their loft and they write,

What I really regret is ripping up my old college artwork throwing it into a skip after being heartbroken now 57 as a successful illustrator and artist i want to try and recreate them a 2023 project well your 2022 project was putting this drama together with parts of your diary entries and love letters. I want to hear a clip of this, so let's take a listen. Love Ian so much. He was so beautiful on the drive down. Dearest Janie Buttercup, I love you. I wish my head was on your busters.

I know I'm crackers, but you want a little nonsense sometimes. Love and kisses from thy foolish Ian. 26th March. Ian got a bit aggressive and very drunk and very rude to my friend Angela. He made her cry. He followed me to my room and said really horrible things. I got so upset I slapped his face. He left and cried outside my door. I didn't let him in. He went away eventually. Now I've listened to the drama and I think that clip really sums it up. It's full of light and shade. How does that feel for you when you when you listen back yeah I mean it's um I I kind of uh I'm amazed that I was 23 at that time and um I kind of um I mean there are bits where in in in the dire entries where

you realize that I am 23 but I think there was I kind of was amazed at my sense of maturity actually at dealing with that situation and dealing with this man who um like I say was uh I mean very very different to me and at a very different stage in his life and uh i kind of could handle him which was sort of um yeah i i was quite amazed actually at that um and it almost sounds like you had told yourself a different story about the relationship earlier on prior to rereading all this material well yeah and i think that's what memory does. You kind of, you remember things, sometimes wrongly, and maybe just remember it in a very black and white way

instead of all the different colours. So rereading the letters and the diary entries, it was very kind of, you know, sort of colourful and very playful at times and quite quite scary at times um you know it was it was a proper journey um very up and down but you know at the end of it you do you come away from from it well I came away from it thinking you know I mean I kept in touch with Ian sort of loosely until he died. And to me, that says there was a connection. Otherwise, I wouldn't have kept that going.

Diaries, love letters, they are so very intimate, exposing as well in some ways. So what made you want to turn this into a drama? Yeah, I mean, I did question myself. i've learned a lot about you listening to well i think you know i mean i i'd never want to write an autobiography but people a lot of people along the way have said oh why don't you write an autobiography especially having your diaries you know you've got such a lot of recall there um and I just wouldn't want to write an autobiography you know and then I did this and then I did that and in whatever 2017 I did this um so uh I I mean last year I did a piece at Brighton Festival where I um used video footage that I had to make a piece and um and that's I so I've kind of taken aspects of

my life and turning them into kind of little dramas is much more appealing to me than actually writing something down or you know in a chronological way uh and I I just kind of thought it was fortuitous that I found these letters and I thought I really want to do something with these letters. I think there's something in it. And regardless of the fact that it's Ian Dury and Jane Horace, I think it's an interesting little story, whoever it is, to be honest. I think, you know, somebody just dipped into this programme

and thought, well, who are these two? Oh, it's just quite interesting. Where is it going to go next? I often find when I reread my journals, and like you, I've been keeping them since I was a very young girl, that it feels like I'm reading someone else's story, almost. I'm keen to understand from you whether you felt that way or whether you've reread them and learned something about yourself decades on. Yeah, I mean, there are patterns that I'm still repeating now that I was repeating then. And so it was quite interesting to think, gosh, I'm still doing that now,

I should really stop that. So that was quite revealing to me that so many years on are still doing the same and um yeah I mean I I kind of it was just like I said earlier it was just nice to sort of um see a sense of maturity there that that I could kind of cope with situations I could you know I was very able to deal with certain situations and um I mean I think I've calmed down a lot since then I mean I think I like the drama and the chaos um that that relationship brought and I think now I'm much more kind of I like a calmer existence not so wild about um about that that chaos anymore uh but yeah I mean I yeah I've learned lots of different things about myself um from from reading from reading them and other diary entries as well but mostly that I was able to cope that you were able to cope thank you so much uh love pants uh Ian Dury and Jane Horrocks is on

BBC Radio 4 on the 21st of December at 2.15. You can also catch it over on BBC Sounds. And the voice of Ian is by Judd Charlton in that drama as well. So do take a listen. Thank you to so many of you who have been getting in touch about your love letters and diary entries. I'm not going get through all of them i wish i could i want to try and squeeze this one in during covid lockdown i reread all my love letters collated them in date order by lover and wrote a brief note to put out to each one in context i boxed them up with my diaries i told my 30 year old niece that should i die she shouldn't throw them out and she doesn't want to share her name just in case because at least one of those lovers is still living. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds.

Dance. It entertains us and it connects us. And in my second series of Ultima Busse's Dancing Legends, I explore some more iconic dancers who have been doing just that. Join me, Ultima Busse, as I delve into the lives of these trailblazers and pioneers who have changed the world of dance forever. The tap dancing duo who astounded audiences

with their acrobatic skills. The Hollywood legend who showed her versatility across different dance styles on screen. We'll hear about it all, so let's celebrate the magic of dance together. Subscribe to Ultima Busse's Dancing Legends on BBC Sound. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.