Woman's Hour - Jane McDonald, HRT, Amanda Prowse and Josiah Hartley, Paint recycling

Episode Date: November 2, 2020

We may not be doing much holiday cruising in the pandemic but Jane McDonald known as ‘Queen of Cruise’ has a new album out ‘Cruising with Jane McDonald Vol 2’ featuring many well-known songs, all performed on her popular TV series of the same name. It’s been more than 20 years since she found fame as the stand out character from the BBC’s docusoap The Cruise - she joins Jane to talk performing, cruising, holidays and life out of the water. A new study, led by the Universities of Nottingham and Oxford, provides a more detailed picture on which women are at increased risk of breast cancer when using different HRT treatments. Dr Yana Vinogradova from the University of Nottingham, a lead investigator on the study, joins Jane to discuss the results.Shortly before Josiah was due to take A levels, he suffered his first major depressive episode. At the time neither he or his family had a clue what was happening. Nonetheless he scraped through his exams and in the autumn went to university as planned. At university his mental health deteriorated further, to the point that he planned his own death. Josh and his mum Mandy join Jane to talk about their experiences – in Josh’s case, learning to live with depression, and in Mandy’s how best to support and help someone you love who suffers with depression.During lockdown people have rediscovered a love for DIY, but what happens to all the leftover paint that doesn’t make it on to the wall? Paint is a hazardous material and if not properly disposed of it can be really harmful to the environment. Cat Hyde is one of the founders of Seagulls, a project which takes leftover paint and repurposes it into new paint. They take volunteers such as Ash, a young woman who now works at their paint shop, who says that working at Seagulls was vital in her regaining her confidence. Presented by Jane Garvey Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Beverley Purcell.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and it's the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Monday, it's now November, would you believe it? It's the 2nd of November 2020. It is a very good morning to you. Welcome to another week on Woman's Hour. Today, the latest on the health risks or not of HRT. We'll have something else from our power list all about our planet this year.

Women who've done wonderful things for the environment, who are doing perhaps work in their local communities. And we'll celebrate the women on our power list on the 16th of November. But today you can hear from somebody who has been suggested for that list. She's someone involved with a great scheme, actually, to recycle paint. We'll talk to her a little later and we'll talk too about how you can begin to help a child who might have depression. It's such a difficult, difficult thing to cope with and it's probably very hard to deal with it indeed if you have a child who's going through it and you don't have any experience of it yourself any thoughts from you of course any contributions and i know it's a tough time for everyone at the moment at bbc women's hour on twitter or of course you can email

the program via our website anytime you like tough times call for effervescent women so that's why we have activated jane mcdonald this morning who can join us from, well, are you in Wakefield, Jane? Good morning to you. No, I'm actually in London. Good morning, Jane. And this is going to be the most positive chat you have ever heard. Okay. Tell me how it can be. No, let's be positive. I said we would, and we are going to be. I'm actually a bit disappointed you're not in Wakefield, because that's very much a place you've, well, you absolutely love Wakefield, don't you? I adore it. I absolutely adore it. And I've had a chance to actually be there this year for a change. Yes. So that has been a positive for me.

I know there are people absolutely in bits everywhere in the United Kingdom and all around the world right now. But we really have got to find balance and we've got to find something positive to get us through every single day. All right. Well, we'll talk about some positives that we can find. We should say you are the queen of cruising and your new album is Cruising with Jane Macdonald volume two. Just most of our listeners will know but you were on and I do remember it myself that Doc Hughes soap on BBC two The Cruise. BBC one. BBC I do apologise I moved you to the minority channel there and it's not where you belong. Take us back to those days. Who was the Jane MacDonald of 20 years ago on the high seas? She's exactly the same person as this one sat talking to you today. She's, I can't believe I've just said she as in the third person.

It's all right. We'll let that go. I've always been a happy-go-lucky singer who has loved every day. And I still continue to do that. That lady, Jane, then, was full of excitement about being on a cruise, seeing the world, singing for a living and just having the time of a time of my life. Yeah. Well, I was watching you on Channel 5, I think it was on Friday, Friday evening, wasn't it? You were doing an American cruise at the moment and you went behind the scenes on a current cruise ship and met some of the very young performers. And you told them that actually back in the day, you'd have a sneaky tipple or three before you went on stage.

And they seemed quite shocked because they're pretty clean living these days, aren't they? I know they were mortified. They were mortified by my outburst. But I remember just thinking, oh, let's just have a little quick brandy before we go on. And I just had the time of my life. Of course, everybody is very clean living these days. There's not, there's not many, I mean there's so many people who don't drink now and they're very, you know, particular about the diets and I just don't tend to do that. I've tried, I've tried different diets that just don't work for me. So I'm just just gonna have a good time i'm obviously very careful about how much of of

things i take but you know a little tipple now and again does me no harm i think does it help my doctor might agree well doctor might disagree well we don't know yeah okay i mean everything in moderation and all the rest of it but do you think it might actually help the way your voice sounds i think sometimes uh it's not so much that it's it takes the edge off um the nerves i don't do yeah that yeah because being a performer is is pretty out there you know you're you've got thousands of people waiting for you to come on stage and and you have create the atmosphere. You have to do it. Funny enough, now I don't drink before a show. I never drink before a show now.

And that's due to my MD, Sean Barry, who doesn't allow any alcohol before a show. So I do things like warm up, you know, like proper singers do now. So I really look after my voice now. And I have to admit, I sing much, much, much better without a drink. But I still have one when I come off. Let's hear you from the new album. This is Jai Ho, your version, obviously.

This is the song many people will know from Slumdog Millionaire. Here we go. I got a fever running like a fire For you I will go all the way, I'm gonna take you higher I'll keep you steady, cause steady is how I feel it Your speed is heavy, so heavy I'm gonna feel it You are the reason that I breathe You are the reason that I still believe You are my destiny, J-Hope So, Jane, what makes a song a song for you?

Well, it can be anything. Something that, I mean, this particular album, which I am thrilled as getting the reaction it is getting. Well, people need something, don't they, at the moment? Yeah, yeah. I have been amazed at the reaction to this album uh this this particular album has got a link with everywhere that i've traveled with and there's 16 tracks on this as well um so that's 16 different cruises and i can remember exactly where i did that video uh for jai ho and that was in

india when we were out there doing the cruise in India so every single song on there is to do with the cruise because I sing the song at the end every time yeah um so um I've got a lot to thank Ben Frow for because uh he's the um the head of channel five and when I went to talk about doing Cruising With, he said, we've got to end it on a song. And I was like, oh, please, please, no, no, please don't make me do that. Because nobody does that. And I have to take the credit is to him. Right. You say nobody does that. People want you to do that. I mean, you would be, I hope I'm not being unfair here. You, I think, would agree that you are not the world's greatest singer. It's not about that, is it?

There's more to it than that, much more. I agree with you. I will hold my hands up and say, yes, I am not the world's greatest singer, but I have a good time and I'm an entertainer. And that, I think, is the difference. Well, you radiate a good time. And that's why other people want to spend time with you um you have an incredibly dedicated fan base don't you uh yes um I do and I am so grateful and you know this time has made me realize just how

much I miss my fans I I didn't realize um just how much I much I'm missing them. I really hope we get through this to get back to what we all want to do again. And the one thing that I just want to do is get back into a theatre with my band and my fans again. Well, you at least have been able to be with your band because I gather you were all tested and you were making another album, next year's album, really recently.

That's right. I missed the creativity of us all. And I thought, how can we work? To be honest, it was the work ethic as well. So, yeah, we've been working together for the last two weeks in quarantine and we have got some magic. And if anything has come out of this for me, it has been this next album that's coming out as well, because the things that we've just recorded, I could never have imagined doing with anybody else. And that is a sheer luxury right do you think then there's just a kind of people are so glad to be together that there's a real spark about the creativity at the moment i think i think you're probably right you know everybody is just so this is what we've trained for for years this is what we do this is not just a a job that you know we we can just turn our hands to. This has taken years of perfecting.

You know, I took piano for seven years. I've taken singing lessons and, you know, this is not just something we play at. This is something that we've studied. And for us all to get back in and then put our own magic in every

bit of it has just been an absolute joy. The song of yours that I wanted to play this morning, and we haven't got it for reasons I don't fully understand, is I've Never Been To Me, which is, I think, one of the great songs of all time. The lyric is phenomenal. I've been to Nice and the Isle of Greece and I've sipped champagne on a yacht.

And my favourite line is, you know, I've been undressed by kings and I've seen some champagne on a yacht. And my favourite line is, you know, I've been undressed by kings and I've seen some things that a woman... What do you think those things were that a woman wasn't supposed to see? That's the thing that's intrigued me all these years. Well, I couldn't possibly tell you on such a posh radio station. I really couldn't, Jane. But that song is probably my life actually and uh i wish it was mine

oh i've drank champagne on a yacht and i've been to nice and i've done all those things i don't think i've been undressed by a king saying that a king did hold my coat once so which king just out of interest uh the king of greece oh yeah but isn't he, technically he's an ex-king, so I don't think that counts. Well, he was a king at the time. So he said. In my head, Jane, don't disillusion me now. He held me court. All right.

There you go. Okay, a very special time, brilliantly brought to life. Jane, thank you very much. I think we'll end on another track from the new album, although, as you've already indicated, there's more stuff coming sooner rather than later. This is, is it Volare? Which one's this?

Where's this from? Volare was Italy. Right. And I've actually sang in Italian on here, and I got some nice comments from people from Italy, so I was quite pleased that I'd got the tonation right and don't forget we've got Jane and Friends the new series coming out as well very very shortly

all singing all dancing great guests amazing so watch out for that on Channel 5 as well Well we will but why haven't you been on Strictly that was going to be my question as well I wanted to ask about that That's hard work love I just no no I love watching it I love the whole excitement of it but you know

i don't think my feet would take it jane to be honest you know my feet are the the worst thing on me are they you're not okay what bunions what what is it yeah i've got the lot you know i mean oh that's great it's just yeah that's painting a lovely picture it. You're right. We've all got enough on our collective plates without thinking about the state of your feet. That's true, Jane. Jane, thank you so much. And best of luck to you and everything you do. And let's have a little bit of the Italian song.

Here we go. Oh, oh, oh I'm tired of it Oh, oh, oh Let's fly way up to the clouds Away from the maddening crowds We can sing in the glow of a style That I know of where lovers enjoy peace of mind Let us leave the confusion and all the delusion behind Just like birds of a feather

a rainbow together we'll find Valade Oh Fantastic. If you have been undressed by a king or if a king has held your coat, this is the programme to get in contact with at BBC Women's Hour.

That was Jane Macdonald. Her album is called, and it is enjoyable, it's called Cruising with Jane Macdonald, Volume 2. Now moving seamlessly on to the subject of HRT, a new study led by the Universities of Nottingham and Oxford provides, we're told, a more detailed picture on which women are at increased risk of breast cancer when using HRT. It's important we get to the very heart of this latest study

because you may have seen in the newspapers last week contrasting headlines. This is from the Daily Mail. Breast cancer linked to HRT. Risk is lower than feared. Same day, front page of the Telegraph. Breast cancer risk of HRT far higher than feared. We should say that online the Telegraph has changed that headline. But nevertheless, it's confusing for people. Dr. Jana Vinogradova is from the University of Nottingham. She was one of the lead investigators on the study. Jana, good morning to you.

Good morning, Jane. Now, this study looked at 98,000 women aged between 50 and 79 diagnosed with breast cancer between 1998 and 2018. So that's a lot of women, isn't it? That's a big, big study. It's the largest study so far. The largest study so far, right. And what did you conclude?

Well, the study confirmed that the risk is increased on HRT, but the magnitude of this increase depends on type of hormones, how long it was taken, when it was taken the last time. So no single estimate may reflect this complexity. And is that the problem? Is that why the newspapers have completely different headlines about the same study? I don't know why they got to this wrong conclusion. Probably it needed more reading into details

of the description of the study. So our study was set up to provide as many details as possible and we showed that the longer you take it, the higher the risk, but the risk grows faster for some hormones than for the others. And for example, we found that risk grows much faster on mediprogesterone, but lower for estradiol dihydrogesterone. So the good news is that the risk goes down as soon as a woman stops taking HRT. But again, how quickly it goes down, it depends on hormones. For estrogen only, the risks are generally lower and they disappear within two years. For combined therapy, again, it depends on progestogen.

So for norohistone or dihidrogesterone, it disappears within two years. But for other hormones, it may stay longer. So the other important finding was that in general, risks grow faster for older women. So you can see it's a very complex picture for a single estimate. And we could say that women who use HRT have an average 21% higher risk than those who didn't, but how helpful it would be for a woman. Yes, that figure sounds alarming, but actually what we do need to emphasise is that however

old you are, whatever type you take and however long you take it for, the actual statistical risk remains low, doesn't it? It is. When, for example, we say risk of HRT on average for women for combined therapy is like 80% high. That's what Telegraph picked from our report. But it really means that the rate of breast cancer for never users is very low and again depends on age and for example 10 000 women who use their hrt and age between 80 and 89 sorry between 50 and 59 years, only 26 will be diagnosed with breast cancer.

So we're talking about extra 15 cases in 10,000 women a year. So it's a very low number. And I don't think that women should be allowed if they really suffer from menopausal symptoms. Right. I do worry that there will be some women listening who may well benefit from HRT, but because of misreporting or simply not having the time to be able to read these articles and delve into them, may be reluctant to take HRT. Do you think it does put some women off? Yes, it does.

It does create some scare for them. But I think that every woman, if she suffers and if her quality of life is really bad, they should go to a GP and discuss it. Yes. Okay, thank you very much indeed. We should say that I asked Jana earlier just how many, what percentage of women take HRT in the years when it would apply to them and is

only 15%. And as Jana pointed out to me on the telephone earlier this morning, that's because so many women don't have symptoms that are bad enough. So if you're perimenopausal or just in your thirties and you're dreading the onset of menopause, we should say that not every woman who goes through their menopausal years really suffers. Some women don't have many symptoms at all, or at least if they do, they are more than bearable. So just to stop people dreading what might lie ahead for them, don't worry too much. That was Dr. Jana Vinogradova from the University of Nottingham. Any thoughts on that? You can, of course, email the programme anytime you like.

Now, of course, Woman's Hour's podcast will be available a little bit later, but you can catch up with any edition of the programme you might have missed via BBC Sounds. And on Friday's programme, I talked to the comedian Grace Campbell about shame. Here's a clip. When I was a quite young child, I started masturbating and I was so deeply ashamed of that because nobody had told me it was a normal thing for a girl to do. Not a single person until I was 21 years old legitimised this thing that I've been doing on my own. So I was deeply ashamed of that. What about your friends? They must have talked. No, because we all projected that shame onto each other. So while we were all doing it, because no one at school, no one in our families, no one in sort of culture had said to us,

that's a normal thing that girls do as well. We knew boys did it. Everyone knew boys did it. Grace Campbell with some thoughts on masturbation on Friday's edition of Woman's Hour. Now to the novelist Amanda Prowse, Mandy and her son Josh, who have collaborated on a book called The Boy Between. And they can both speak to us now. Mandy, Josh, good morning to you both. Morning. Hi, Jane. How are you? Hi, hi.

Yeah, we're good. Thank you. Great. Are you both, it's hard to tell, are you both sitting together somewhere? We are, which is my favourite place next to Josh and his least favourite. So it's quite lovely to get a little snuggle up, actually. I'm enjoying it. OK, well, I think mums probably would enjoy that. Well, it's good to have you both on the programme. Just to set this up for everybody, just before you were due to take your A-levels, Josh, that was when you had your first major bout of depression.

And you did, we should say, you did go on to university. And at university, your mental health deteriorated really quite severely to the point that you really were thinking, unfortunately, about planning your own death. There's no getting around that. So I just want listeners to be aware that this conversation is going to be around that subject. So it's not something you feel able to take this morning. I understand that.

But also, actually, I also think it's a very important topic right now. Josh, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself as an adolescent boy? What were you like? Fairly normal, I think. I think it's fair to say nothing, nothing too extraordinary. But when things started to go south during my A-levels, partly due to my own ignorance around mental health and depression, I didn't know what was happening to me. I thought I was one of the only people feeling this peculiar way. And depression affects you in a fairly unique way and makes you feel completely isolated. So partly my own ignorance was part of the reason it took such a strong hold. And was it something that you could talk about to your mates at the time?

I didn't feel like I could, no, not at that time. But I think the conversation is opening up slightly and it's slightly better now. So you think perhaps a young man going through what you went through now in 2020 might be able to reach out or would feel able to attempt to get the support of their friends? I still think it's incredibly difficult and it varies from person to person but you know these campaigns and talking about it more is sort of helping open up the dialogue. Mandy from your perspective what did you see happening to Josh? I think it happened gradually as far as we were concerned and I think Josh was always you know he was very studious he worked very hard at school he was quite quiet you know he wasn't a party animal he was you know happy on a laptop or listening to music. And so when he sort of took to his bed, which is how I can describe it, and spent more of his days horizontal than vertical, just sleeping all the time.

I think we initially hoped and thought that it was just a sort of teenage blip, maybe, you know, rebellion through sleep and just wasn't participating in normal chats and was slightly moody. And I said, you know what? He's got exam pressure. There'll be a lot of hormones flying around. It's probably all that stuff. And we just need to give him some space and he'll come out the other side. We have another son who's a very similar age to Josh, Ben. And I think it was sort of hard not to compare the two. So Ben was very outgoing and sporty and was sociable.

And Josh was very, very quiet. And I said, you know, they're different kids. There is no, you know, cookie cutter child. We just need to let them both develop in their own way. So even though it was concerning, I wasn't overly worried, Jane, I think. No. And Josh, you did, you didn't do badly in your A-levels. I think you gave yourself a hard time because you didn't quite do as well as you might have hoped. You went on to university, and I think we need to make clear that it wasn't university that made you ill, although it certainly didn't help. Would that be fair?

Yeah, I think that's fair, even though there are a lot of factors at university that come into play that don't at school. For example, if you miss a single lesson at school, someone's asking you, where were you? How are you feeling today? Yet you can miss months of lectures without without any checkup whatsoever. And that's sort of the perfect environment for depression to thrive, really. I should say that some universities have certainly changed that now, haven't they? And they have a scheme where you can actually ask when you go to university for your nearest and dearest to be contacted if you're unwell. Yeah, that's part of this mental health charter that student minds are embracing. And it's brilliant, Jane, because I think it's exactly that. It offers an opt-in, which is so reassuring

for parents like me who are at home just really hamstrung, not knowing where to go for information when Josh started to fall through the cracks. I think it's absolutely vital. And I'm so glad that that's being taken up by universities as best practice. It's exactly what needs to happen. Josh, I think perhaps you might have thought that you could, I don't know, escape from your depression at university. Was that your hope? It was certainly a hope, but far from reality.

It's where, you know, living by myself away from my parents, it just absolutely thrived that sense of isolation that comes with depression really can take hold when you're you know living by yourself you don't have that family support network you're used to at school and um part partly as every pressure does the sort of intense drinking um certainly didn't do me any favors yeah um but on the other hand intense drinking in those early weeks at university is almost a prerequisite isn't it it's it's mostly pretty difficult for a lot of students to meet young people without it do you think i

mean josh is there a way around that do you think um no i don't unfortunately and i think it's part of it's so normalized in our in our society it's it's just part of the university experience and but i've got to be honest when i was not at my lowest point but was severely depressed the blackout drinking was almost a release for me at that time it was a pause in my illness gosh that's really uh that's tough for you, Mandy, to, at the time, what or how much of all this were you aware of? I think we became aware of it quite early on because Josh became quite non-communicative and wouldn't respond to texts and things and communication was minimal. And I just felt this desperate sense of not knowing where to go for help or even advice because was this just normal student behavior that he was you know sloshed on social media more often than he wasn't

this this quietness was it because he was having the best time of his life or was it because he was having the worst and I think we felt completely helpless and it was only really when he came home from university for sort of breaks around Christmas and summer that we saw just how far he deteriorated and it set every alarm bell ringing but even then it was like well okay we're faced with this child who is clearly his mental health is failing what do we do and we didn't even know what to do once we had that information you know where's the cure the magic tablet the the retreat the person how do we fix it and it sort of in a way even though we were able to identify Josh was suffering it was really just the start of the journey because then we didn't treat the person, how do we fix it? And it sort of, in a way, even though we were able to identify Josh was suffering, it was really just the start of the journey

because then we didn't know what to do with the information or where to get the help we needed. Well, I think what you're writing in the book, Josh, is so good at is just laying bare the difference between parents and friends who want to help and people who have depression. And you say, here we are, her trying to make everything all right and not knowing how, and me trying every day to process wave after wave of intrusive thoughts and stave off this permanent state of exhaustion whilst doing my very best to fit in. If I think about

it, this is how it's always been. A bad day at school might mean a new toy to add to the large collection of crap I didn't play with and I suppose it did lift my mood momentarily but it was no solution. That part of the book quite early on hints at a life long before you went to university when you just didn't feel that you did fit in Josh. No that's true I've always felt slightly slightly different to my peers I'm not I'm still not fully sure why I think my interests have always been more academic as opposed to sporty and I went to a very sporty school where you know playing for the A team was was almost everything and that's never really interested me to be honest with you. But on a practical level, how does a parent or a carer or a friend

best help someone with depression, Josh, from your perspective? It depends what stage they're in. But if it's sort of they are depressed, but they're not a danger to themselves, just be there for them, speak to them, you know, let them know that they are loved and they're not alone, even though they will absolutely feel it i think letting them know how common depression is nowadays they are not suffering alone unfortunately there's probably multiple people in their halls suffering in the exact same way they are but then if they are in a more of a crisis period and they are a danger to themselves just stay with them um you know hold their hand make sure they're warm enough and get them a cup of tea just look after them like they're severely ill, which they are.

We should say, of course, at the moment, I'm just looking at the latest guidance as the lockdown obviously starts on Thursday of this week. And the official guidance is that although universities are staying open, students mustn't go backwards and forwards between home and their student homes. They can go home at Christmas. In Wales, students are encouraged to stay in their term time accommodation unless they need to travel on compassionate grounds. In Scotland, guidance at the end of September said students can go home to self-isolate, but other members of the household have got to quarantine for 14 days and shorter visits in Scotland only permitted if there is a reasonable excuse such as a family emergency or bereavement. Josh if you go back to a time when you were a university student

feeling as terrible as you as you did this lockdown really does present a challenge to any student particularly in their first year at university are you concerned about that? Absolutely but I think we have to turn it on its head slightly and look at this in the bubbles of six as a great opportunity to make five very strong friendships and relationships and sort of fully look after five other people and know that five other people are looking after you, because otherwise mental health is going to seriously deteriorate in the next few months. Yes. I guess, though, you're relying on the maturity of, let's say you are in a student flat and you are with, because you only started six or seven weeks ago, you are with relative strangers. How or what should other students watch out for, Josh? Taking to their beds, not talking heavy drinking

it can often seem like the loudest and smiliest person at the parties tends to be the one suffering alone and I think I think exactly that, just look out for each other if you haven't seen someone for a day

or a while, knock on their door, invite them out sit with them, talk to them, a cup of tea. It really is all the little small things, Jane, that certainly made a difference in our house. It wasn't anything drastic. It was sitting with Josh and opening a window and turning the pillow over and letting him know it was OK to just be. There was no pressure on him to get out of bed if he didn't feel he could. And not muddling his head with complex questions, keeping it simple. Do you want a cup of tea and can I sit with you is far easier than how are you feeling and are you feeling better which can feel like a huge pressure yes I mean can I ask Mandy how you

how do you disguise your exasperation I have to be honest I think I would find it difficult to have somebody frank to be really blunt just in bed all day. And I don't think I'd be alone. Did you ever have moments where it just really got to you? Constantly. That's exactly what it was like. I fluctuated between feeling incredibly frustrated. Why won't he get out of bed? Why doesn't he get a job? Why doesn't he do something? Which my ignorance and my naivety only obviously added to Josh's feeling of depression and he said since that because I didn't understand and was saying those things and he knew I was thinking those things it just made him feel even worse

you know this I was taught saying those things to someone who couldn't even lift their head off the pillow and hadn't washed their hair for a month you know it feels very I was just so ignorant and I'm ashamed of that and I will always regret obviously, obviously, with hindsight, how I did handle it. And on the other hand, if I wasn't feeling that level of frustration, I was desperately unhappy for Josh, sobbing, crying and almost, you know, as though it was my problem and my battle, which it isn't. And it wasn't. It's Josh's. But I made it about me sometimes with my level of emotion.

And that, again, was exactly the wrong thing to do. It was unfair. Yeah. Josh, what do you think about that i think she didn't know better but at the same time if your if your own mother doesn't know what's going on how can you expect the wider society to know know how you're feeling and a lot of these solutions why don't you go sit on a beach for a couple of weeks or why don't you go out to the pub when you literally can't get out of bed just make you feel even more alone because they just do not understand what you're currently going through yeah um but i guess i don't know speaking on behalf of mothers the world over um it can be it can be very it can be very difficult i mean i i do i feel for you both here and i i do josh how how is life for now? I have good days and bad days like everyone but

it's good at the moment. I spend a lot of time outdoors which I know really helps my mental health. Live in the middle of the countryside which is nice and I'm very thankful for that during lockdown. And your university, you left university I should say, sometimes people are, young people in particular, are very reluctant to give up on something that might have been a long held dream or perhaps even worse, their family's dream. It isn't easy to walk away, is it, Josh? No, absolutely not. And we're such a competitive generation. Everything feels like a race, a challenge and you have to win. And dropping out feels like you're falling behind in that race when it's just not the case at all.

Whatever path you take is probably right for you. That is important, isn't it, Mandy, that parents, carers, do take a step back and let a person be who they want to be and don't try and live through them. I mean, I think we all fall into that trap sometimes. Yeah, massively. And I think from the day Josh was born, he was always super smart. We used to call him Dr. Josh and Clever Josh and Smart Josh, which not only meant that when his brain started to fail him,

he felt utterly lost because that was his thing. You know, Smart Josh, if I haven't got my smart, what's going on? What's left? And secondly, I think it was a huge pressure. We just got him on this single track of university, A-levels, academia. But of course, nothing matters as much just having my my son still alive nothing no piece of paper no degree no career nothing um and and we had to collectively give up on that but by giving up on that it meant it meant that we embraced josh exactly how josh is and just to have Josh be and have Josh here is the only thing that matters. Thank you both very much.

I hope people have learned something from that. And if you'd like to know a bit more, I'm sure there are links available on the Woman's Hour website, bbc.co.uk forward slash Woman's Hour. And the book, I should say, it's called The Boy Between. And it's written by both Mandy and Josh. And you can find it out now, of course. Now, our Powerlist reveal programme is on the 16th of November. It's all about our planet this year. And thanks to the hundreds of you who suggested, women, you want to appear on the Women's Hour Powerlist 2020.

We're going to talk this morning to somebody I know has been suggested for it. She is Kat Hyde, one of the founders of a project called Seagulls, which takes leftover paint and basically repurposes it. I don't know how that's done. We're about to find out. Ash is one of Kat's volunteers and we can talk to them both. Kat, good morning to you, first of all. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. Hi. Now, you are someone who had an idea one day, met someone else and got it started. Tell us about that.

Yeah, so myself and Kate, we were both volunteering for a local project in Leeds. It was at a time when there was a lack of recycling and reuse awareness and no green bins. And both Kate and I are passionate about the environment and we're passionate about people. Kate was a single mum at the time and I was fresh out of uni and we really wanted to find a way to bring recycling and reuse awareness to our local community in Leeds and provide jobs for ourselves and others. Right and it's a great idea but how did you start it? So Kate and I spent several years in Kate's kitchen wondering what we might actually be able to do. We wanted we held the belief that one man's rubbish is another's gold

we wanted to be able to make money out of a recycled or reusable material and so we spent quite a bit of time talking to Leeds City Council talking to lots of different people and wondering what material we might actually be able to reprocess. Somebody suggested paint and we thought why not and the rest is history as they say. Right well I mean everyone, I know I'm no exception, has got half-used tins of paint lurking around and what is it about paint that makes it so difficult to recycle? It's predominantly very very messy and very labour intensive so when you we we collect the paint from the waste sites the council tips so we have to collect all the paint tins we have to bring them back to seagulls we reprocess them with spatulas and drills not very technological and we make full tins of paint so we're diverting

paint from landfill right okay it's a really tough question but doesn't paint go off um it can go off yeah you you know about it though if you open a paint tin and you get a smell of eggs rotten eggs then you know it's off or it's lumpy but it's kind of just looking at it by eye and seeing whether you think it's reusable or not. OK. And Ash, how did you get involved? So I got involved through, like, an employment scheme for young people. Basically, I was unemployed. I was 16 years old and I couldn't sign on for anything until I was 18.

So as soon as I got signed on they sent me on this young people scheme called Head Start and basically that got you involved in like volunteering like for work experience just so you could get it on your cv and uh i told them i like artsy stuff and yeah they said seagulls is the best place for me right that you might find a home there and you have haven't you yeah definitely what was your first day like though was it was it nerve-wracking oh it was um to say that from 16 to 18 i was like i was listening to the show and I was stuck in my room, basically. Depression, anxiety, and I never really saw anything different than my four walls. Really? So going somewhere where I knew there was going to be a few people was really, really scary for me.

Oh, it must have been. Yeah. So did you say anything the first couple of times you went um so the first time i went we had like a little meeting like interview and i was shaking um but um as soon as i got out the interview with kat and kate i kind of slumped back into myself and just got anything they told me to do. I just did it and didn't really speak to anyone. You've made quite a lot of progress. You're talking to a lot of people now. Yeah.

Well, I'm so chuffed for you that it's worked out. I mean, do you get on with the messy side of it? Because it does, I mean, Kat did make clear, this is messy work this oh yeah i love getting messy any job that's messy i just love sticking my hands into it and getting involved really yeah have you got a favorite paint color ash um i like like say cherry red i love the dark reds um but they're very hard to make in the mixing area. Are they? Why?

So with reds, you can't really add any pigment to them to dye them in a certain way, because if you add red pigment, it just goes pink, basically. Oh, I see. Right, yeah. You've got to get that balance absolutely right. Well, it sounds really such a good project. And clearly, Kat, you've made an enormous difference to the lives of lots of people.

I mean, Ash certainly speaks very powerfully for the work you've done. Yeah, that's the important thing about seagulls. It's as much about the environment as it is about the people. Yeah. Kate and I have always been 100% passionate about social justice and helping people. It's not about trying to solve people's problems, but it's about trying to provide a safe and supportive space for people to rebuild their lives and confidence.

Kat Hyde, who is one of the founders of Seagulls, the paint recycling project, and you also heard from Ash. And it did um clearly have a really positive impact on ash going along to help out at seagulls so that was good to hear and so much looking forward to that um powerless program which was i think i said last week was going to come from kew gardens i suspect that now won't be happening but nevertheless the program itself will be happening on the 16th of November. Now to the programme today. Richard says, when Jane MacDonald was in the Merchant Navy, it was obligatory to drink a lot, especially on passenger ships.

Nowadays, there are restrictions or indeed a complete ban on ships crew drinking. Yes, I think it's probably no bad thing. Shelley says she thinks I was a bit disrespectful of Jane. There's a fine line between joking and making somebody feel inadequate, says Shelley. Well, I don't think, to be fair, I don't think that Jane Macdonald would feel inadequate. I think she, well, I did say she was an absolutely brilliant entertainer, but she's not a trained vocalist in the manner of an opera singer Or something like that And Lisa says

I'm not Jane Macdonald's biggest fan But I thought it was unnecessary to state She's not the best singer in the world and that when Jane was recounting her story about the king of Greece She was told her anecdote didn't count Well Lisa that was A joke which I think Jane took in I did say Jane

Macdonald had some committed fans and she clearly does have. Listen, no king, ex or otherwise, has ever shown any interest in holding my coat. I need to make that absolutely clear. I think one thing we can agree on, all of us, is that I've Never Been To Me, originally done by Charlene, is the greatest song ever, ever written for women. And if you disagree with me on that, I don't want to know you. Now, subject of HRT, Lynn said, I'm 79. I've just had a lumpectomy and lymph node removal for stage one breast cancer. I never took HRT and I breastfed my children and I've had an oestrogen positive cancer. Lynn, I'm sorry to hear about that. I hope you're doing all right.

Thankfully, of course, at least you've had that surgery, which is something at the moment, but I mean, I know it's not much of something, but best wishes to you. Sandra says, I had a total hysterectomy 40 years ago. Sandra says, I can only come in with a 100% positive view on the subject of HRT. And of course, to emphasise, this is Sandra's personal story, but it's worth hearing. I had a total hysterectomy 40 years ago, and I was transported immediately into a world of non-gynecological problems, or no gynecological problems. No further need for contraception, no pain. I've had no menopausal symptoms.

I'm fit, as are my friends who've been fortunate enough to be taking HRT for a long time. I've always thought that along with assisted dying, we should all have the choice on whether we should in fact have our wombs removed after our trial-bearing days are finished, and then just take HRT. Anne says, sudden after having to burn three car seats due to leaking and ruining them. I had my womb ablated by laser. I don't know if this is done anymore. My periods eventually came back after 18 months, but I could practically time them to the minute. Every fourth Tuesday, 9.30 till 10.50-ish, job done. Wow. I mean, that's incredible, incredible. And I mean, also, that means you that was during women's hour as well.

So that was that's handy. They then stopped, she says. And that was it. I had two hot flushes in two years. No other symptoms. There is hope for us all. See the gynae and keep pushing for treatment. Right. Thank you, Becky. I started on HRT patches about two years ago after reaching rock bottom, not sleeping more than two hours a night, constantly having hot sweats during the day, soaking the bed with sweat at night, anxiety, constant mood swings. Life just wasn't worth it. It was when I found myself screaming at my husband in the middle of the night for some minor misdemeanor, which then escalated into me physically attacking him, that I decided something needed to change. So now at 55, with four kids aged between 33 and 13, having never had issues with my hormones during pregnancies or periods, my HRT patches have changed my life, giving me my life back. I have become myself again. Sharon says,

I use black cohosh as an alternative to HRT. Yes, I think you can get that in your high street health shops. Although I'm wondering whether they are amongst the shops that might have to close after Thursday. It's unfortunate, isn't it? Sharon says it stopped the hot flushes waking me at night and helped with what I call butterfly brain. An inability to concentrate and see things through, but moving on to the next thing before you finish something. Yes, I know what you mean about that, Sharon. I think I've definitely had a chunk of that myself.

I know Black Cohosh, some people would say it didn't do any good. Other people like Sharon say it definitely helped. I mean, who knows whether it's placebo or whatever it is, but if it helps, keep up with it, I guess. Now to the conversation we had with Amanda Prowse and her son, Josh Hartley. My wife finished Amanda and Josh's book in two readings over the weekend, says this listener, and I have started it yesterday. A complete mirror without the attempted suicide of our own son,

who was at first year uni until February this year, when we had to bring him home as he just was not functioning. We had no real idea of how severe it was and still is. It's encouraging to know we are not alone. Thank you, Josh and Amanda. Another listener just wanted to say thank you to Josh and his mum for sharing their story. If you change the names, it could have been mine and my son's story.

In the series and timing of the development of the mental health issues, reducing and changing expectation of life's goals, in the emotions, the frustrations and the confusion. We're still in it, we're coping better and my son is now in his mid-twenties. I will play this to him later. Hopefully it will help both of us know we're not alone. Anonymous, my son had a very similar experience but with no support from fellow students.

We didn't find out until he was nearly suicidal. After two years, he is now a police officer and has found his niche in life. There is hope for our young people. Phew, well, that's an encouraging one. Sian says, my son is in halls in London in a studio flat with his own kitchen not shared. The hall provider is treating each studio as a separate household so no on-site mixing is allowed. My son and hundreds of other students is in danger of becoming very isolated and cannot have anyone

in his room or in the shared areas. I'm encouraging him to form a bubble but I'm not sure his halls will allow it. Your contributor made me fear for the health of these students. Yes this has really struck a chord with people and I hope it helps. I do hope it hasn't just made people more worried than they already were. Karen says, This brought me to tears, having had a daughter almost give up on things in her first term at the London School of Economics two years ago.

I felt helpless. She's fine now in her final year and very philosophical about the struggles she and we went through. But I realised just how inadequately prepared we were for the kind of mental health issues this generation of children face, very largely as a result of our expectations of them. Yes, I do hope if this ever occurred to me, happened to me, I would just say to my children, pack it in. It isn't worth it. Nothing's worth it, is it? As Mandy brilliantly expressed there, the most important thing is your health and your well-being. Lucy says,

thank you so much for the piece on depression today. Although I haven't had a depressed son, thank goodness, many parts of their story related to my experience in life and my relationship with my daughters. What a brave man Josh is and so open and honest with his mum as well. I really And finally, please tell Mandy she's not alone in feeling guilty. We thought our daughter was being a grumpy teenager. When we finally found out about her anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts, I said, you've been covering this up for a long time, haven't you? And in a small, quiet voice, she said, yes. Thanks for discussing this today

and letting other parents know what signs to look out for. Don't get me started on the lack of help with this. Yes, as I say, I hope it hasn't concerned people. I hope it's just drawn everybody's attention to what is a very real problem right now. Thanks to everybody who took part today. You can keep in touch with Women's Hour, of course, via the website. We're back tomorrow.

We'll talk American elections and also what's happened to sex workers during the pandemic. We're also discussing shoes. That's an edition of Women's Hour for you. Almost something for everybody. See you tomorrow. Thanks for listening today. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.