Woman's Hour - Jane Roe's daughter, Lionesses semi-final, Voices of Power and Women's Health Apps

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

It’s been just over a month since Roe vs Wade was overturned by the Supreme Court in the United States. On this programme we’ve covered the aftermath of this ruling many times, but what about the woman at the centre of it all? Jane Roe, or a name you might be less familiar with, Norma McCorvey, the real person behind the Roe vs Wade court case of 1972. Her eldest daughter, Melissa Mills, joins Emma Barnett to discuss what her Mum would have made of the court case she was so central to, being overturned. Last night the England women’s team won in a decisive 4-0 victory against Sweden in the Euro semi-final at Bramall Lane. Emma speaks to BBC sports commentator Robyn Cowen, former England player, Anita Asante and sports commentator Jacqui Oatley about what this means for the sport.A new oratorio, Voices of Power, that contemplates the nature of female power across the centuries is set to make its world premiere at Hereford Cathedral tomorrow. Composed by Luke Styles and set to libretto by Jessica Walker, it features the thoughts from seven women from across two millennia, including the likes of Boudica, Margaret Thatcher and Eleanor Roosevelt. Luke and Jessica join Emma to discuss. Period and fertility tracking apps have been growing in popularity for years, but new analysis reveals the majority share sensitive personal data, with experts warning it could be used to target women with tailored advertising. We speak to Fatima Ahmed, obstetrician, gynaecologist and ORCHA'S clinical lead for women’s health.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. What a night, what a series of amazing moments. I also cannot stop watching the clip of Alessia Russo's goal, referred to in there with one of the four goals. It was an audacious backheel. I'm told that's the best way to describe it or nutmeg. Congratulations then to England's lionesses for their 4-0 victory over Sweden in the Euros.

The biggest ever semi-final victory in the history of the Women's European Championships. And talking of great sporting moments, cast your mind back because today is 10 years to the day since the opening ceremony of the London 2012 Olympic Games. Can you believe it? 10 years. What were you doing on that day? And yet, we also know from a new report out this week that almost half of British women do no regular exercise. After many women gave up sport during lockdown. One in three women in the UK have said that their physical health has deteriorated over the past 12 months. 47% said they did no vigorous weekly exercise like, I don't know, jogging or playing netball in the past 12 months. For men, the figure was lower, still not great, at 34%. That polling, you may

have seen it, was done by Nuffield Health's Healthier Nation Index. And those results, they point to a more sedentary lifestyle increasingly becoming the norm. So what will get you off the sofa? I mean, if last night won't, I don't know what will. But, you know, all seriousness, we want women and men. We want to be moving. We don't want to have sedentary lifestyles.

Could the lionesses do it? Of course, the Olympics was talked about in terms of a legacy for everybody to keep us moving, to get us into sports perhaps we didn't think were for us. What has got you moving in your life? Maybe at a time when you'd stopped. How did you start again? Was it swimming? Was it a particular running program? Was it, I don't know, walking just to start with? And if you aren't moving at the moment, there's no shame in that in terms of just being honest. We can see the data. What is stopping you?

What is the barrier for you at the moment? 84844, that's the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. You very kindly often do. Just to say, if you do choose to text, they'll be charged your standard message rate on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me your answers and experiences through the Women's Hour website. Also on today's programme, what is happening to your most personal data if you choose to use apps which track your health?

And an incredible insight, you don't want to miss this, believe me, from the daughter of the woman known as Roe, of the Roe v. Wade abortion ruling, overturned, of course, by the Supreme Court last month. Her mother's real name, Norma McCorvey, not the one that we hear the most of, we hear the name Roe, Jane Roe, that was her pseudonym. The daughter of Roe herself is joining me on today's programme. I caught up with her yesterday. She's based in the US. She actually works now as a paediatric nurse. It's an incredible family story and it's one that you will want to hear. So stay with me for that.

That's all coming up in Woman's Hour today. But after England and the England women's team beat Sweden 4-0 in the Euro semi-final last night, they will now play either Germany or France in the final on Sunday and hopefully make history by taking the trophy home for the very first time. We're going to try and keep the party going as well as just process what happened last night with two very well-placed women indeed. Robin Cowan,

one of the BBC commentators for yesterday's game and former England player Anita Asante. Warm welcome to you both. Robin, I'll start with you because your voice helped us navigate this last night. How are you feeling this morning, first of all? Sore head? I just, it still doesn't seem real. I just, did that actually happen? It was just, it was incredible. The atmosphere, the performance, some of the goals were just out of this world, as you mentioned.

I mean, I'm happy I now know the word nutmeg in a completely different way from my spice cupboard yeah you don't usually score from a nutmeg you usually kind of get past a player but Alessia Russo well in case people don't know what we're talking about just just say what would what can you describe so a nutmeg is when you put the ball through a player's legs, an opposition player's legs, and she not only did that, she did it through the goalkeeper and scored a goal, which is just one in a million. So the history of that phrase, is it to do with nuts?

Yes, exactly. Sorry. Got to ask the obvious questions. We're talking about women's football, but it's all come back to nuts and balls. Lovely. Anita, how are you feeling this morning hi yeah i'm still processing i think as well um it was a just amazing win for the girls uh in the fashion that they did it against the number two as well i think is what has really blown everyone's minds um but it was just fantastic i think the atmosphere looked incredible from my screen anyway.

And to see the girls, you know, work really hard, especially that second half performance to get those goals and win in that way was fantastic to see. Yes. I mean, I suppose it's just one of those things that you're processing one, you maybe two, and then you get to goal three,

maybe goal four. You're in a different place. I loved your tweet, actually, about that particular goal. I think you called it a dirty goal or dirty as it went through. I was looking at some of your messages. I mean, the support, Anita, has just grown and grown and grown, hasn't it? I mean, obviously, people love victory. They love success.

But there's a great feeling, isn't there? Yeah, there's a great buzz around this Lionesses side. And, you know, obviously the social media interaction of the team has been fantastic across the platforms. But ultimately, it's just accessibility of the games being broadcast on mainstream television. Lots of people can watch, you know, whether you're interested in football or not. I think it's been the sort of tournament that lots of people have just gravitated towards not just because of the action on the pitch but because of the supporters and the traveling fans as well and and how much color they brought and brought to the tournament what did you do last night to celebrate did you

do anything I was watching it at a pub in Bristol, actually. So, yeah, I was celebrating with a bunch of strangers, but it was fantastic. You know, when the goals went in, people were jumping up and down and singing songs. You know, they're bringing it home and all of that. So that's where I was. Yeah, I also imagine. Well, actually, I should say, how's your head today? I didn't ask you that. It's actually good.

It's actually pretty good, surprisingly. I work in the game today so you know okay fine we've got to check these things uh robin for you i suppose i know you're the professional you're commentating you've got a it's not about you processing it at the time you have to think about it maybe afterwards but but do you ever just stop and think about how much women's football and the support for it has grown while you're doing it? Not particularly in the moment, but I think after the tournament and also I think between the semi-final and the final, it will really hit me because the atmospheres we've seen, not just for the games involving the Lionesses,

but also the games involving, as Anita alluded to, the fans, particularly the Dutch and the lionesses but also the the games involving as anita alluded to the the fans particularly the dutch and the and the swedish fans who just follow their team everywhere the atmospheres are not something i've experienced with women's football at all in this country at least we had a record-breaking crowd at the new camp the barcelona women's team had about 90 000 watching them and i believe the atmosphere there was amazing. But this is just, this feels different. It's constant noise. The support has just been incredible.

And this really does feel like we're moving up a notch. Looking ahead, looking to the final, now we can. What do you think, sir, the thought process in the team right now? How are they going to be preparing? What should we know when we're getting ready to watch? I know we don't know who it will be. I think the only thing you need to know is England have possibly the best manager that they could possibly have, Serena Vigman.

She's like this sort of Mary Poppins figure. She's kind of stern, firm, makes decisive decisions, but has a huge heart. She's a steady hand on the tiller. She's done this before. She won the tournament last time with her native country, the Netherlands, in their home tournament. And yes, she can, you know, the great thing about her is she's very composed. But we also have seen her get carried away that comeback against Spain we did see her show emotion she's honestly makes a lot of notes as well doesn't she she certainly

does I mean I like I like a woman with a notepad I was noticing that I was noticing that last night Anita to bring you back in what are you thinking about when it comes to the final where do you think they they need to have their heads at And what are you looking forward to about it? Well, it's going to be an unbelievable occasion at Wembley, you know, between two fantastic sides, depending on who they meet, of course. But ultimately, I think it's about the girls just focusing on the game at hand.

And that Serena's been mentioning that focus throughout the tournament, that they just focus on the game and forget everything else around it. And obviously she's so meticulous at what she does, those notes will be in preparation for this final and how they can tweak and improve their previous performance. And hopefully they'll start off with the same confidence in which they ended the semi-final match. I've had a couple of challenges for you both you'll both be very equipped to do

this working in sport Anita one to you do you like the term lionesses why not lions why do we have to call them lionesses? Yeah it's a good question I think it's kind of one of those things that we genderfy everything don't we so it's just become but to be fair it's kind of one of those things that we genderfy everything, don't we? So it's just become, but to be fair, it's been a great branding tool for the national team and a way for fans to relate and connect with this group of players and its personal identity, you know, related to the women's team. So I kind of like it from that perspective. Well, you're a former England player. I doubt the person who's texted in is.

So, you know, I wanted to hear your take on that and what you thought of it. Anita, lovely to have you on the programme. Anita Asante there, former England player. Robin, you've had a challenge from a man listening, Jonathan in Leigh Park, who says, Nutmeg, the ball is the nut, the player's legs are the nutcrackers.

So men and women players are equally nutmegged. What do you make of that? That's a lot to think about. I mean, I'm just impressed. That is a deep thought. It's a deep thought. And I'm not the expert. You are. So I've got to always come back to you, Robin. I'm really grateful you could talk to us this morning. You must be a bit spent after last night, but it was very great

and wonderful to have you take us through it and be able to talk to you this morning. Robin Cowan, thank you to you. But I have to say, even the morning after such a football victory for the women's team, and it's fantastic, isn't it, to hear it being reported top of most of the news bulletins, of course, also strikes and other things going on today. But let's never forget that the FA, the Football Association, banned the women's game for 50 years. And I'm

joined now by the woman who was the first female Match of the Day commentator in 2007, and still works in the field, of course, the trailblazing Jackie Oatley, who's been commentating on some of the France and Germany group stages. Jackie, good morning. Good morning, Emma. You know, some people, some women, some younger women in particular, will just not know that. And maybe that's a good thing. But do you think it's a day to reflect as well? I think primarily it's a day to celebrate

what this group of players have achieved. But it's not just about this group of players. It's about the team behind the team, and that is the support staff. But it's also about, I think we have to give credit to the FA for what they've done. So many people there deserve credit for the exponential rise in the women's game in this country, because it's easy to point the finger at the blokes in suits

way back in the day who banned women's football in 1921 for 50 years. yes we do have to point the finger we do have to remember that but it's not a case about being bitter about it it's a case about saying okay so in 1971 1771 the ban was lifted and women started right from scratch and of course while the men were winning the world cup in 1966 women still had another five-year ban to serve before they were allowed to even contemplate kicking a ball on fa affiliated pitches but i think we talk about that so much and whilst it's important to have that at the back of our mind as an explanation for why the development has happened rather later in the day than in the men's game i think we have to look at how far we've come and to look at the achievements of these players

and the people behind them, the likes of Kelly Simmons at the FA, Kate Cossington, who's doing a great job on the technical side, Rachel Pavlo, who anyone who knows about women's football in this country in terms of what the FA have done, have known how much she's done

in terms of grassroots and diversifying the game as well. There are so many people who deserve credit. And I was just looking at an FA document, and I promise you I'm not here as an FA spokesman, but looking at their strategy in terms of the legacy of this tournament. And that's why it's so fantastic that the women are in the final at Wembley on Sunday, because really all those eyeballs

will be on that game. And hopefully then the legacy that the FA wants that we all want everybody not just English people but everybody wants going forwards after this tournament to make sure that's in place and to my mind that involves things such as bums on seats and well it's a business tendencies that league games I mean it's a business as well at the end of the day you know the the more popular it gets, the greater the financial support, the sponsorship, all of those side of things as well. So it's a day to pay tribute, you would say,

to the teams behind those that you see. It is. It's a day to celebrate, frankly, be happy. I mean, there's so much negativity going on in the world. How are you feeling last night? Oh, well, I was in two minds because I had to give up two tickets to the game because I couldn't go due to childcare reasons of all matters with my husband working. But I looked on the positive side and I watched very closely with my little girl in the lounge and we went absolutely nuts very quietly because her little brother was sleeping. And it was a really special night. And I was just so happy as somebody who's followed the game so closely over a couple of decades. And as one of those women of the generation who wasn't allowed to play, there was no negativity.

It was purely just joy and happiness that, you know what, this group of players are so likable. And that's just that's just a minor thing. But they are so relatable. They're so likable. There are players in that squad such as Jill Scott who used to have to work full time and probably paid subs as well. And they are players that girls such as mine, but little boys, grown men,, last week she was literally trying to get rid of some guests to watch the England-Spain match. I couldn't believe it. She's really got into it. And she watched again last night. What a match. That's the thing, isn't it? You know, never mind men who've never watched women's football. Again, it's drawing in women of all ages. Absolutely. And during the match, I was receiving texts from the sort of people that you converse with about different things you know my mum's friends and my old friends from growing up who I literally never talked to about football really ever because that's not what they're into and they're texting me out the blue it's it's the kind of fever pitch moment have you ever read that

famous book by Nick Hornby about how people are always thinking about you at a certain moment when your team's doing well and in this case it's the England women and they're texting saying how they got so into this tournament and it's messages such as those that make my heart sing because it's not just about those who are already into football or women's football it's about attracting whole new audiences and for me it's one of the many people who've been fighting over the years for people just to see football as football not just women's football can women play and all the goalkeepers and all the nonsense that we've heard and the boring boring stuff over the years and people comparing the two women's football and men's football and is it as good and what do they need to do and it's just so dull that conversation

I think we just need to enjoy what we're watching seeing players who have given the opportunity to be as good as they can be through excellent coaching, through opportunities, through medical care, through support, through sports science. All the things that yes, men have had over the years. You are going to the final. You got the tickets? Well, I will have, but I'm actually hosting a UEFA conference that morning. And so I did say, could I have two tickets, please? Thank goodness, because that was a little while ago. I think Jackie Oatley, you deserve some tickets there.

So you please be there and you have a wonderful time with everyone around you. Thank you so much for talking to us this morning. Thanks, Emma. Jackie Oatley there. Trailblazer, of course, in commentating on the match, on the match in general, and also just in football across men's and women's. And where we've come to, we thought it was a good moment to pause and hear from her today. Now, you will have heard, especially here on Women's Hour,

the name of a particular US legal case, and a lot lately, Roe v. Wade, after it was overturned by the Supreme Court last month. That landmark decision ended the constitutional right to abortion for millions of American women. Eight states have already banned abortions and overall about half of states are expected to allow bans or other limits on the procedure in the coming weeks and months. But who was Roe, the woman at the centre of the 1972 Roe v Wade case, Jane Roe, as she was known by her pseudonym. Her real name, you're probably less familiar with, Norma McCorvey.

Norma was a woman seeking an abortion when she became, after she became pregnant, I should say, for the third time in 1969. She was living in the state of Texas, which banned the procedure. Her case ended up making it to the Supreme Court, who ruled in her favour, meaning abortion was effectively legalised, what was called a watershed moment for women. By the time the court ruled, Norma's pregnancy had long since ended and she'd given birth to her third child. Of her three children, only her eldest, Melissa, grew up knowing Norma.

Melissa was actually raised by her grandmother and until the age of nine believed Norma was her older sister. In a further twist and something you might not know, Norma McCorvey, Roe, publicly changed sides and spoke out against abortion for a period in her life, only then to admit before she died she had been paid to do so. Her daughter, Melissa, now a nurse working in Texas with two daughters of her own, cared for Norma until she passed away in 2017. I had the chance to speak to Melissa yesterday about her mum, who had a very complicated life, as you'll hear. I began by asking what her mother,

Ro, would have made of the case she was so central to being overturned. I don't think she ever thought it would be overturned. I really don't. I think she would just be devastated like I was to see that taken back after all this time, all her hard work and everything that she went through and her family went through and everybody else, you know, getting to this point and then they take it all away. But yeah, I think she was pretty pissed. Well, I was going to say for you about, you know, when you heard the news, there had been a leak, of course, a few weeks earlier. It wasn't a complete surprise. But when it actually happened, where were you? What were you thinking?

I was in bed and I woke up. A friend sent me a message and I looked and I was like, I just started crying. I mean, I just couldn't believe it. I knew it was coming. I just didn't believe. I still can't believe it's all happened the way it has. Do people in your life know who your mum was? A lot of people do.

Yes. They don't talk about it much, though. the only reason I was thinking was your reaction you're a nurse as I understand it you work in live in Texas and of course there will be I imagine with Texas being the state that it is not everyone not every woman will be sad about this overturning they will they will see it as a they will see it as a victory yep which is sad because they don't realize everything that it goes with it you know in vitro sexual abuse human trafficking children with anomalies advanced maternal age uh there's so much more that goes with it incest rape everything i, everything. I mean, there's just a lot. And then all the babies brought into the world with no families and places to, you know, take care of

these children that are unborn people just to help the women that have these children that they don't even want to bring into the world. How are they going to make it? I mean, it's hard for them already. What are we going to do with all of this unwanted pregnancies without services? It's just going to be crazy. How complicated is it in terms of the memory of your mum? Because she did publicly switch sides. It's kind of weird in a way that it's hard to. I know my mum.

I know how she was. She had a lot of demons. She used alcohol and drugs and she was always self-medicating to make her pain go away. And it just, it never did. I'm not saying that I wish she would have had the abortion, but giving up the babies was really hard on her and knowing that they were out there. We should say, just forgive me for interrupting you, but for any of our listeners that don't know,

the ruling came too late. The ruling that her name, the code name became synonymous with. So she had to go through with that third pregnancy. And then she didn't keep the babies. Neither baby, no. And she had to carry both pregnancies. And yeah, and they said she was never the same after she gave up both of those, the babies.

Is it your understanding that her decision to switch sides, as it was for a long time as well, was motivated by financial need? You know, she was surviving. She had no formal education. She had nothing. I mean, she just every day she lived paycheck to paycheck when she did work. So yeah, I think it was survival. I think it was good for her too, because she had a diagnosis that was killing her. I think she did it for a good reason. But she still was pro woman. She always was. She wanted women to have what they needed. with you is it is it the case that she came back to the other side of the debate at the end of her life that she came back to where she had begun fighting for the right for a woman to be able to

have an abortion she did a producer approached her and asked her if she wanted to do a documentary and because of her you know she was also gay and all the things that she went through with the case and with in life uh she said yes before she died and she finished it uh before she passed away well we finished it at the end for you know but she was like i said she was always pro-woman she wanted all rights for women women not to suffer women not to have to do without and be put down and held back so women could move forward. And this would be devastating. I know it would for her. Did she feel proud to have her name, her code name associated with this case, with this ruling, do you think? Because it's a lot to carry.

You know, I think because of all the ridicule and, you know, like most of them, when they passed the case, for years she was put down as the devil, you know, and that she killed, she was responsible for killing 60 million babies and they said horrible things to her. They did horrible things. So I think all of it together and then with her own demons, I mean, it was hard on her. I don't know if she was so much proud.

She was glad to be a part of it and glad for what she stood for. But it was hard on her. It was very hard on her. And was it hard on you? Was there a stigma that then was attached to you as the daughter of Jane Jane Rowe it was I was very proud of her for standing up for women and standing up for herself and not not being pushed down and again everybody wanted a piece of Jane Rowe and Jane Rowe didn't have anything I mean she wasn't educated and she carried a lot

of that um like I said with all of her own baggage she carried a lot of that. Like I said, with all of her own baggage, she carried a lot of that. And did that create, as you say, a stigma at times around you and the family? It did. Because then we were associated with this stigma that, I guess, we didn't like kids or we didn't want to have kids. And that's not the case. She loved kids. She just didn't want to have any kids. Well, and back then it was considered, you know, if you weren't a homemaker, housekeeper, everything, you know, you weren't the right type of woman. You had a complicated relationship in terms of when you found out she was actually your mom.

Is that right? Yeah. I always thought of her as my sister because we weren't around each other all the time she was like an older sister that I got to see on holidays and breaks and special occasions and and then as I got older and it was easier for me and her to get together she didn't have to take care of me I could take care of myself it was fun we had a lot of fun together. You were actually raised by other members of the family. Her mother and father, her, well, it was her stepdad and my real grandmother who raised me. And did you have a connection to the other children she had?

I didn't until the writer approached me of the Rowe family until he approached me and told me that he knew where both of my sisters were. Is that, sorry, is that the documentary you were referring to? The documentary. I actually had spoken with Shelley, the roe baby, 20-something years prior. We had met like Norma was trying to find the roe baby. And I spoke with her a little bit on the phone and we conversed through letters, but we never formally met until the writer came into the picture. 2012, 13, something like that.

Yeah. So I knew about her, but never met her. Is that a connection you still have? Not really. No. I think Shelley was so, her and Norma had such a terrible meeting when they did meet. She kind of lumped me into that too. And I reminded her too much of Norma had such a terrible meeting when they did meet. She kind of lumped me into that, too. And I reminded her too much of Norma.

And I feel like she projected more on me that I was Norma because I stayed with Norma and I had a relationship with Norma. And I couldn't give that relationship up. I knew my mom forever. You know, you just don't do that. That was family. That's my mom and so therefore I mean just because she was the road baby as it were you you don't know how she feels about this overturning you know I don't I haven't spoken with her in a very long time I have no idea that's fair enough I um I just ask again because

I suppose your mom just unwittingly made such a big bit of American history and to be associated with that and then to be the baby is yeah you know a whole other level as and also for you to be her daughter and connected to to that I was I was just gonna say is there any part of you also working as a pediatric nurse I know it's a different part of the hospital, part of medicine, but is there any part of you because of your family's link to this that has had those thoughts or any sympathy around the rights of the unborn, you know, the concerns around that? You know, the concerns to me would be if they're going to be raised properly, if they're going to be in a good family, if they're going to have things they need to survive. I mean, why do we want to bring these kids into the world that are going to be fighting from the beginning and never have what they need

and do without? I love kids and I enjoy working with them, but I sure don't want to see them be abused. And I don't want people to not have what they need for life and then that makes them somebody else and it's like I don't know and these kids with anomalies it's already hard enough for disability children to get the the things that they need and then even with families and insurance so can you imagine bringing them into the world with no family no insurance no. And they're just dumped in there to somehow survive. To me, that's more cool. Did it make you, your mum's connection with this case, this landmark case, did it make you think about your own decisions in terms of having family, having children? Did it impact you? You know, it did. I was scared to have kids. It took four people to raise me.

My mother wasn't always there. My grandmother wasn't always there. My grandfather wasn't always there. And then my aunt Connie, which was my mother's lover. She wasn't like, so I was with different people all the time. It took four people to raise me. And that was people who wanted to raise me. So I'm like, how in the world can people take a care, take care? Or what, how are these kids going to live, you know, without people

that want to, you know what I mean? It was difficult. Both my mothers were alcoholics. I lived by myself in high school for one year. I slept on a lot of people's couches. I lived at other people's homes from the time I was 13 till the time I moved out and it was difficult I won't lie and my dad was always on the road so I can't imagine like I said bringing these kids into the world if it's that difficult how in the world are they gonna live and then seeing my mom go through all of the emotional and you know it's hard it's's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And she spent her whole life dealing with trying to help women.

I don't want to get emotional, but she spent her entire life, last breath. Yeah. So it's a lot. It's really messed up. And she gave up a lot of things for both sides to try to survive herself, but to help other women survive that were in the same same space as she was. You know, and it could be any of us. You never know what's going to happen. Now her life and what happened to her and then the needs that she had trying to make ends meet with some of the different complications. I mean, if anything, it's a, it's such a testament to how complicated life is being able to afford to live the autonomy as a woman. Yep. What do you think

your mom's legacy will will be is now it's gonna always be there it's never going to go away and they're always going to be reaching for that status again of Roe uh that what we had we had all all of the rights with Roe we had everything we needed uh to take care of ourselves do you think it can be reversed this supreme court ruling take a lot of work it's going's going to take a lot of work. It's going to be time and a lot of work. I just can't believe these people did this. I mean, they're on their way out. I'm sorry. They're in their late 60s. They don't have to live in this world and see all the things that we're going to see now and all the problems we're going to have without this. You're talking about the Supreme Court justices? The Supreme Court. One of them

is actually a woman who's a little bit younger as well who voted for it, of course, just to remember that. Well, not everybody has a white picket fence life, that's for sure. Just finally from you, in your work as a paediatric nurse, living where you do in Texas, are you already seeing a change in behaviour with women and families? They're getting their daughters on birth control they're opening up their eyes they're getting hpv vaccines uh human papillomavirus

for a long time people weren't getting that we get it now you can get it at the age of nine now starting at nine um they're getting those shots more and more and they're getting their girls on birth control pills can you still access birth control easily in the state? Right now you can't. Now I don't know what's going to happen, but right now you can. Just finally, when we think of your mum, when we think of her, Norma, to give her a real name, what should we think of? How should we remember her from you as her daughter? She was just a really strong... It's really hard still.

She was just a really strong woman who just wanted to be her. Yeah. Wanted to be heard, wanted to be seen, wanted to just be equal and not looked at differently and that's all and she wanted all women to be viewed like that and not put down and taken advantage of do you feel she was taken advantage of by the anti-abortion movement well sure sure

like i said so many people wanted her around, but they didn't like her because she was so opinionated and she didn't step back and she stepped on toes and she said what she felt. But they wanted her around because it meant something for her to be on their team, which she never fit on anybody's team. They had to change her before she'd fit on anything, which sucks, you know, but it is what it is. Melissa, thank you very much for talking to me. Thank you. I appreciate you having me. Thank you. Melissa Mills, the eldest daughter of Norma McCorvey, the woman known to millions as Jane Roe in the Roe v Wade court case, that seminal case, which has recently been overturned. It's very, very interesting to hear that story, that woman's story, the family story, and something we will keep with, of course,

in the aftermath of that particular decision. You are getting in touch, thank you for this, with your responses. I asked right at the beginning, after the amazing night that was with the Lionesses' victory, getting into the finals of the Euros last night, beating Sweden 4-0. There's also a study out this week to show that women are living increasingly sedentary lifestyles and are doing less bouts of exercise, especially since lockdown, since the pandemic. You've been getting in touch about when you move, what makes you move. Could that be a legacy, for instance, of the lionesses?

I have retrained as a forest bathing guide. I walk miles and miles every week, reads this message, and I'm nearly 60. I love it. Warm wishes from Sharon. Thank you. I did couch to 5K in 2015. It was the best thing I ever did.

I'm still running and going to do my fifth half marathon in September. Amazing. I would definitely recommend that app, says Juliet, to do my fifth half marathon in September. Amazing. I would definitely recommend that app, says Juliet, who's listening in Cambridgeshire. Good morning. I'm the mother of three young boys aged seven to six months, just listening to your request of experience of activity. I find I have to do some exercise to keep myself sane. Running was my saviour over lockdown. Even if I can only get half an hour, I try to go for a run once to three times a week. I have always been fairly self-motivated,

but find even if I'm shattered, it does me the world of good and I'm a nicer mum for getting that small run. My six-month-old is breastfed and my partner works till fairly late most nights, so it isn't easy, but it's worth it, says Rachel, just giving some insights there. Laura says, I love all sport. I'm so bored with the endless waffle about it

I have arthritis in my knee so I have to exercise to keep mobile but I hate it it's a daily chore to get on my exercise bike but I do it to stop the pain I don't care flying fig about any football women's or men's I just wish you'd all stop banging on about it thanks Laura

dutifully taken and read out Dr Laura Stevens a laura here says people society the program are not valuing the work or exercise women do in the home which counts as cardio adding more pressure by saying we have to do a certain amount a week out of the home for ourselves on top of us quote doing it all with child rearing work cooking cleaning is too much valuing what we do in the home or counting those other activities would show the true work slash cardio we are doing and make women feel much better about what is achievable.

A few messages I have to say along those lines. What I would say is not every woman, of course, has children and not every woman is doing perhaps what you've described in the home. Maybe they live with someone who's doing it or maybe they're just not doing it. So let's not make assumptions, I suppose, on that front either, I would say to that doctor who's got in touch this morning. But I also take that point about that extra pressure. But let's just stop there for a moment on the activity side of things and think a little bit about perhaps some music and something to take you out of yourself. A new oratorio,

a large scale musical composition for solo voice, chorus orchestra called voices of power is set to make its world premiere at hereford cathedral tomorrow the piece contemplates the nature of female power across the centuries it's composed by luke styles and set to libretto by jessica walker it features the thoughts of seven women from across two millennia including the likes of buddhica margaret Thatcher and Eleanor Roosevelt. Luke and Jessica, join me now. Welcome to the programme, the both of you. Thank you. It's a voice of power. So, you know, your voices are going to have to match up to that now when we have this conversation.

We like this on this programme. Luke, just first to you, what drew you to this? Why this? Hilary's voice was the initiating thing that drew me to the project. We had a chat about what we'd like to do together. And this is the singer, I should say, Hilary Summers. That's right, Hilary Summers. And her voice is this incredible contralto. It has an incredibly powerful bottom register and an equally stunning top register.

And so this power, this idea of power came from her voice. Jess and I started talking about what kind of a piece we'd like to create with her and really it evolved from that. Jessica? Yeah, I'm a singer as well as a writer and I've worked with Hilary on stage so I felt that I was in quite a good position to write some words for her because I know her personality pretty well and knowing her and knowing her capabilities,

we thought it would be very interesting to get her to shapeshift as different powerful women through the centuries. We thought she would be able to do that with her unique sense of humour as well as her stature, her physicality and her unique voice. So we started talking about which women we could get Hilary to embody. And of course, there are a lot of women to choose from. And I was going to ask why the women that you picked? Yeah, pick them. Well, they each had to have a very distinctive, different aspect of power so that we didn't repeat ourselves. So we go basically from the idea of Boudicca, who's

aping the male version of power by being a warrior to the more modern sense of collaborative power ending with Jacinda Ardern. Okay yeah that's a range that you've gone for. And so it's seven women? Seven women. Okay and for you Luke composing this how did you go about that? Well Boudicca the violent aspect of power was a more angular type of music, jumping around, aggressive, dissonant. By the time we get to Jacinda Ardern, it's more melodic. There's longer lines. It's set in the middle of Hilary Summers' register, so it's more comforting to listen to.

You didn't fancy, instead of Jacinda, Theresa May? No, we're not sure that she's earned her place as a powerful woman yet. Maybe history will look differently. You might have Liz Truss soon, depending on how that goes. Well, yes. And the interesting thing about Liz Truss is that watching her in the debates and, you know, emulating Thatcher to a degree, you know, and our piece is asking, what is power? And we like to think that power could become more collaborative and more long-term and it's very interesting watching the struggle that women are still having in how to embody what power is well yes i mean you say it's a struggle some feel very good about how liz

truss is embodying embodying power yes you don't i'm well i'm not i'm i'm it's not really about my politics no no not about your politics sorry it's about your perception of how power is. That's what you've been exploring. Yes. And I think it's the difficulty that Hillary Clinton got into that we also cover in this piece, which is that she felt that she had to present a certain image of herself in order to become the president. And I don't think she was ever herself. And we look at that in the piece. How interesting. Well, let's hear, you've mentioned Hilary's voice. I think it'd be only fair for our listeners to hear it

because it's hard to describe voices, isn't it? When you've especially got such a special voice, as you say. She's kindly recorded this clip, especially for Woman's Hour. In it, she's channeling Catherine the Great. Before we hear it, what were you trying to do with this piece? This section is a more comedic part of the oratorio. And in terms of Hilary's vocal power, she's leaping all over the place from the very bottom to the very top of her range. And what's taking place is a letter from Catherine to her son.

Let's have a listen. Write me out of history. Bad luck, much love, mummy. Hilary Summers there. Bad luck, much love, mummy. Yes, it definitely has a comedic element to it. I just, before we keep going with the elements of your creation and why you've picked who you've picked. I think we should just make a moment to talk about, there's one voice, Hillary's voice, that has been picked to tell these seven women's stories. She's a contralto. What's so special about that, Jessica?

Well, nowadays, most women with that voice type are called a mezzo, which is a voice that can sit at a higher soprano register, but also dips down a bit lower there aren't many true contraltos anymore it's it's I'm not really sure why um I think it's because a mezzo is seen as being more versatile probably in terms of career but Hilary is a contralto her voice sits lower she's got a bottom c which is really low for a woman I'm a high mezzo and I can't really go lower than an f so she can sing a lot lower than me. But she also does have this extraordinary high register as well. It's a very unusual voice. I

mean, you don't hear that voice type very often. But in short, a contralto sits just a tiny notch lower than a mezzo. And as you say, very rare. It's a rare voice, yeah. To have. So therefore could take the seven, you felt, the seven stories. Well, I think with her combination of personality, both vocal and who she is as a person, yeah, I felt that she was definitely someone who was able to shapeshift across all of these different women. Luke, what do you hope audiences, especially women perhaps, take away from the piece?

Well, I'd like them to be engaged, all audience members, and to feel that they're kind of moved through the 45 minutes of the piece. I'd like at the end, the message that we finish with, that there's a more collaborative and a compassionate type of power that can be exercised by men or women to be taken away from the piece, that that perhaps is the aspect of power we need in our future leaders. Do want to add more voices do you think in time to this seven seven powerful women's stories yeah there could easily be a sequel or a prequel we we haven't spoken about that but um no i think you know obviously it's very hard to choose um and we made the choices because it was very specific to the different aspects of power that they were going to embody. It was really tough making those decisions. There were many people that we left out

because it wasn't the differences weren't significant enough. Who's your favourite in it, Jessica? I don't know. I mean, I'm actually I do quite enjoy the Hillary Clinton speech because it's we've given her the speech she never got to make which is the one in which she actually says I was never able to be myself and it's got nothing to do with her politics but her as a woman the the idea of the thwarted power because she couldn't be herself is that is that based on something she has since said she has said um that when she was you know trying to sort of get up her speeches and work on her persona that she was always told she was too much this or too much that, that she was too emotional, her gestures were too big.

And you can just see how somebody gets boxed into a way of being that just comes across as a bit unlikable and a bit fake. OK, so that was based on something. It was, yeah. With that bit of research that you've done. Do you have a favourite, Luke? At the moment, I think it's probably Eleanor Roosevelt. Hilary gets to sing a duet with the viola player,

so the music gets quite intimate and chatty. Not Hilary Clinton, sorry. No, no. There's a lot of Hilary's going on. There are. Yeah, Hilary Summers gets to sing together with the viola player and the horn player, and there's just some beautiful colours in her voice that she draws out there.

I mean, Eleanor Roosevelt, what a woman as well. I mean, a lot of stories there to draw upon for people. Well, there you go. It's a preview for you there, an insight. The piece is called Voices of Power. You've been listening to the composer, Luke Stiles, and of course, the writer and singer herself, Jessica Walker. Thank you very much for joining us this morning.

The premiere of Voices of Power is at Herethard Cathedral tomorrow at 7.45. Many of you still getting in touch with us about actually how we refer to the lionesses, some of you on that point, but also how much you've been enjoying the football, especially if you don't normally watch it. We should stop worrying about the lionesses being somehow a patronising name. This has come up a few times this week. We were having the debate about chairman versus chairwoman or just chair. In nature, lionesses will always be lionesses not just lions and they are every bit as formidable

many would say more so they hunt they protect fiercely they work together they are in my view more proactive than the male of the species lionesses is a great name for our women's or england women's national team we should say and it's in touch to say lionesses is actually a very appropriate name for the England soccer team because in the case of Lions in the Wild, it's the females that do most of the hunting, working together as a team, while the male mainly

just lays around. And so it goes on. My daughter, aged 11, I like this one from Alison, had to change behind a cupboard when the only girl playing in a school football team in the year 2000. Girls must have access to football training at a young age

so that boys in the playground take them seriously. Hashtag future lionesses. Thank you for that. Why not lionesses, says Ian. They do all the hunting and they work very effectively in teams. Chiming in with one of our previous messages I just shared, lions sit around looking cool. Maureen, because the Lions are a male rugby team,

a pride of Lionesses, thank the Lord I'm not filming Coronation Street this morning because today I sound like the late Elaine Stritch after, I believe it says, there's a wrestle message, after screaming my head off alone in my Manchester flat

and I can hardly speak today magnificent teamwork clean fresh gorgeous football no histrionics in an amazing flow and workload dazzling cheaters never mind lions I'm so excited and that's from Dame Maureen Littman hey hello good morning thanks for putting your full name there we know who you are and yes the Correlated Street comparison there is very apt for you being a member of it. Jane says, I fear your male emailer doesn't know much about nuts and spices.

You don't crack a nutmeg, we're back to nuts here, with nutcrackers, you grate it. Therefore, the gentleman's explanation of the football term makes no sense. Jane. I wonder if that's Jane Garvey. I mean, who knows? Who knows who's listening this morning? I did say though, keeping with women's health, which has also been a theme

of our discussion this morning, are you sharing some of your data through some of those period and fertility tracking apps? I know I have. They've been growing in popularity for years. New analysis reveals the majority are sharing sensitive personal data, including details of sexual activity, contraception, when a user's period started and stopped. Well, the Organisation for the Review of Care and Health Apps found that of the 25 most popular apps in the UK, 21 shared some data with external third parties and 24 shared users health data with the app developer. Well I'm joined now by Fatima Ahmed, an obstetrician and gynaecologist who is the organisation's clinical lead for women's health to discuss this further. Good morning Fatima. Good morning. The concern around this, should there be concern because of course some of these companies, we don't want to name any of the individual ones, but some of them will have just been saying, well, you know, it's to really positive that we're talking about this and that this data has,

this report's come out so that we can all become aware in terms of where the pitfalls lie, but also become more aware in terms of the huge amount of positives that health apps can be used in terms of women monitoring and managing their healthcare concerns. And it's really exciting that we can have these conversations with the tech companies and clinicians as experts, all kind of putting our heads together to really solve some of the women's most urgent needs. But at the same time, I suppose,

there's got to be trust, hasn't there? Exactly. So one of the biggest things, I mean, there are so many barriers to adoption of health apps. We find that women are already downloading them to manage their health needs. But one of the things that comes up time and time again is that they're worried about trust.

And one of the main issues that they're worried when it comes to trust is data privacy and security concerns. So it's definitely a problem and they should be concerned about it. As a clinician, when I see a patient, when I manage them, when I look after them, I don't share any of their personal health data with anyone without their explicit consent. And even then, the consent is very limited to a particular thing at a particular time shared to a particular person. And it's not kind of open access and continually, it's always renewed.

So the tech industry and healthcare innovators really need to be responsible in how they handle that data and be really careful in how it's shared and who it's shared with. And there needs to be a system of transparency as well in the sharing of that data. So it's a concern, but the good thing is that we're talking about it so that we can make change and affect change um it is a an industry-wide i was going to say do you think of course i mean it's the so-called like or loathe this particular term the femtech market is worth what was worth 22 billion dollars in 2020 according to to one

analysis one market analysis it It's big business, okay. And while there might be some explanation for sharing, I don't know, when my period started and ended, and also some put it down to marketing purposes, there is also a concern about that being given to government agencies, about it getting in the wrong hands. And there isn't enough transparency, some feel. Do you think that there should be a moment right now where if you are doing this, you should stop doing it? You should stop as an individual sharing your data when you hear a story like this? Yes. So when we assess the different apps, we assess them on data and privacy concerns.

And we found that most of them, unfortunately, most apps don't meet those criteria. Only about half of them met the data and privacy standards. As a consumer, if you find an app that maybe hasn't got the Orca badge, if you go on their website, sometimes that would just give you an idea, yes, it's passed. You can sort of, I mean, it's up to the consumer if they want to delete the the app if they want to but what's the problem is a lot of these apps as well don't actually make it very clear in terms of how to do that and how to delete the um your data from the app yes exactly um so there should be a clear way and part of the things that we're trying to do at orca is to really make, to push developers, push governments,

push organisations into making that whole process very clear, very accessible, very easy to understand. The user, not every user is the same as each other. Some people maybe don't know how to read. Some people have higher IQs, lower IQs. Not everyone kind of has the same understanding of all these. Because just in case people are thinking, what's ORCA? It's the Organisation for the Review of Care and Health Apps.

That's how I explain that. And is that some kind of regulator? So ORCA is a private company. It's a global health app evaluation. That's what I thought. So it's not a regulator per se is it um so we advise governments and um we help we support governments in developing some of these regulations so i suppose i suppose my bigger point which is why we've been also thinking about this lately with the online harms bill i'm slightly up against it in terms of time though is

the the greater faith the greater trust it still probably isn't there because it isn't regulated in quite the same way as other spaces. Like you were saying about a clinician, if a doctor shared my information against my will, there's proper ramifications. So Orca was actually developed because of that, because of the lack of regulation back in 2015. And since then has been advising the NHS in terms of how to do that regulation process and how to do those standards and actually build that system that we have in the world of pharmaceuticals that doesn't quite exist in the world of digital health technologies or health care applications. Because as you say, many people are using it. Many women are using these apps. And perhaps there's still things we don't know, as well as, of course, using them to try and know a bit more about ourselves. Fatima Ahmed, Orca's clinical lead for women's health and obstetrician and gynaecologist. Thank you to you. Many messages that I have not been able to get fully across today.

But I just wanted to read this from Ruby. She's got in touch saying, we will have got there in terms of sport and women's participation when sports commentators automatically say men's football without thinking when talking about the men's game as opposed to the women always having to have the caveat. Thank you so much for all of your messages today, especially I really enjoyed your engagement with the lionesses

and also your own personal activities. Back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Tell me this. Would you like to be a princess? There was always talk about, oh my God, Prince Harry was in Mahiki last night.

How exciting. And then we'd all go to Mahiki the next night because Prince Harry was there. Would it be liberating? You couldn't believe the ferociousness with which she just fought restlessly for inequality and always championed the underdog. Glamorous? They all knew that Victoria Davis was a very special little girl. At the end of term, this royal coach would rock up at the school and take her away to wherever the royal family was staying. Or perhaps just a bit sad. She was not cast in a Vogue photo shoot because the people running the shoot decided that she was too large and she wasn't slim enough.

I'm Anita Arnathan. For my new podcast on BBC Radio 4, I'll be exploring the complicated idea of the princess. I'll be sitting down with actors like Meera Sial, authors like Kate Moss, and TV presenters and comedians like Toph and Russell Kane to get their favourite princesses, historical or fictional. So from Princess Leia and Grace Kelly to Mongolian wrestler Kutulun and the little girl Queen Victoria fondly called her African princess. Do join me, Anita Arnand, for Princess on BBC Radio 4. Subscribe on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.