Woman's Hour - Janhavee Moole, Julia Golding, Holly Bourne, Sam Quek, Rachel Williams, Ella Whelan, Abbie Cheeseman

Episode Date: February 6, 2023

Is the world of Young Adult (YA) Fiction getting too dark for our teenagers? Nuala McGovern speaks to YA authors Julia Golding (Finding Sky) and Holly Bourne (The Places I’ve Cried in Public) to discuss where teenagers can find joy and uplift in their reading today, as well as why it’s important to address some of the darker themes in young adult literature.The latest from Iran where tens of thousands of prisoners have been pardoned with Abbie Cheeseman from The Telegraph.Commentators Ella Whelan and Rachel Williams debate whether Welsh Rugby Union were right to ban choirs from singing "Delilah" at games.The Board of Control for Cricket in India – the governing body of the sport - announced last week that the five teams that make up the new Women’s Premier League have been sold to local investors for more than £465 million. This is a remarkable amount, even in India where men’s cricket teams command staggeringly high valuations and life changing for India’s women cricketers who have struggled financially to make ends meet. We hear from BBC Mumbai Sports Reporter Janhavee Moole how it could also change the game for women cricketers around the world.If you were listening to Woman's Hour last Wednesday you will have heard me speaking to two of our judges for the Woman's Hour Power List - one of Britain’s most celebrated British Paralympians of all time, Baroness Tanni Grey Thompson and Cricket World Cup winner turned broadcaster Ebony Rainford-Brent. Today you will hear from our third judge Sam Quek - Sam was as part of the squad who won Britain’s first ever hockey gold medal at the Rio Olympics in 2016. She was also won gold at the European Championships in 2015. Now she is a team captain - the first female team captain - on BBC1's Question of Sport. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Yes, hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. I want to begin this programme in Iran. We're going to talk about what has happened there. The Supreme Leader has pardoned tens of thousands of prisoners, including many linked to anti-government protests. So you'll remember that women took to the streets to demand reforms of the laws that limit what women can wear and do in public.

And that was after the death of 22-year-old Massa Amini in police custody. But what we want to ask is, what do these pardons mean for the women's movement now? So that's coming up in just a moment. Maybe over the past weekend, you're watching rugby. Well, the Welsh rugby fans, they belted out the Tom Jones classic Delilah. That was despite the Welsh rugby union

banning choirs from singing it at international matches. Now, the ban is due to misogyny, as it says in the lyrics, including a reference to a woman being murdered by her jealous partner. But the ban is controversial and I'm wondering how do you see it?

Is it time for Delilah and songs like it to go? Should we be more aware of the lyrics to songs that are sung at public events? Or is this all a step too far? Well, you can text the programme. The number is 84844 or you can get in touch through our website, email us

or on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or maybe a WhatsApp note or a voice note. It's 03700 100 444. And from music to books. What was your book of choice when you were a teenager? Are You There, God Is Me, Margaret was mine. Actually, all of Judy Blume, if I'm honest. More Than a Smattering of Jackie Collins.

Not forgetting The Disturbing Flowers in the Attic. That book was grim reading, but it is quite a long time ago in my case. But what's on offer now and what's popular? Well, we have two young adult fiction authors with us as we're going to get into a discussion about whether today's choices for teens are just too dark. Feel free to chime in on that one as well. 84844 is the text number. You'll also hear during the hour Sam Quek, Olympian gold medalist for the GB hockey team

and another of our judges on the Women's Hour Power List where we're looking for 30 extraordinary women in sport. We also talked about what does it take to keep girls playing hockey as they turn into women. So that is all coming up. We're also going to talk about cricket in India. Women's cricket there. It is people saying just at that pivotal point, making it such a success. Really to rival the men's some say. So that is all coming up this hour on Woman's Hour. I hope you stay with us.

I want to begin as I mentioned though in Iran. State media reports that the pardons by Ayatollah Ali Akhamani came with conditions. The pardons came on the eve of the anniversary of the Islamic Revolution in 1979. As you'll remember,

it was following the death in custody of 22-year-old Massa that demonstrations erupted on the streets. It was so much talking about the hijab. Massa Amini arrested allegedly for wearing her headscarf improperly in violation of Iran's strict dress code for women. Let's bring in Abiy Cheeseman, who's Telegraph's Middle East correspondent. You're very welcome.

So what do we know about the people who have been pardoned? Hi, thank you so much for having me. So at the moment, it's very unclear on an individual level who will be released and who will have their sentences commuted. So in the state media report,

they said that any dual nationals essentially will not be eligible for this amnesty. So anyone convicted on foreign spying charges, anyone who has been convicted of the capital charge of corruption on earth, anyone who has intentionally been part of a murder or an injury or destruction or arson of state property. So any one of those will not be eligible. But what we're really hoping is that it means that all of these women who have been arrested on very spurious charges, posting images on social media of themselves unveiled or videos of them dancing in the streets or child right advocates. It's a big hope that all of these people may be part of these pardons. But I think the main thing to point out here is that analysts, reporters, Iranians themselves are not viewing this at all as a change in policy from

the administration about how they're viewing the protests. These pardons happen every year on the eve of the Islamic revolution, and they also happen around major religious events. So what this really actually shows is they're saying they're releasing or committing tens of thousands of sentences. It really just shows them acknowledging the scale of the arrests that they've taken over the past few months in September when this protest movement started. You know, rights groups estimating some 20,000 people arrested, but they've never given any indication as to the true figure. So now we can really see the true picture of the amount of people that have been arrested. But we don't have a breakdown

of how many men or women, I suppose, with those figures. We do not know. Yeah, they've been very, very ambiguous with the figures that they've released. Actually, there's been hardly any. A lot of our death counts, our arrest counts are all coming from rights groups who are trying their best to monitor across such an enormous country you know around the population of around 87 million and the authorities are just not releasing any of this data they're not being transparent about it at all. And I think perhaps then that might lead on in the cases of we say women posting photographs of them without their hijab what charge would that have been? I'm just wondering, would it have come under the ones that were pardoned

or the ones that were not? No, so they shouldn't normally, again, these charges are extremely spurious and they're applied in very different ways. You know, rights groups have called them kangaroo courts.

And a lot of them have been hugely brushed through. So there's very little, you know, structure and stability across these charges. I would say that they probably are eligible for those kinds of um like posting images and that kind of thing that they would be eligible underneath these pardons particularly because the head of the judiciary who uh requested that hamane put through this uh this amnesty.

He specifically said in his letter that many of these young people have been led astray by foreign influence and Western propaganda. You know, they don't know what they were doing. Very much as a way to reinforce this plot by the authorities, this narrative that the West incited these riots, as they called them, rather than looking inwards and looking at their own repressive regime. So I think that that tone of the young people didn't really know what they were doing. They've just been led astray, suggests to me that those kind of social media posts may be included in the pardon. And what is the state of the women's protests at the moment?

I mean, we've definitely seen a move away from these mass large-scale protests that we were seeing in every corner of the country every day, in most part due to the extremely, extremely brutal and bloody crackdown by the authorities. I think the best way to describe it is that it's moved to a kind of act of individual defiance. You know, a lot of Iranians and activists say they've passed the threshold of no turning back. You know, you see videos online on social media now of shopping malls in Tehran where you wouldn't previously believe that you were looking at a shopping mall in Tehran. There are so many women walking around with their partners and their friends, unveiled, young women, old women.

And it's not even so much, I would say, just about removing the headscarf at this point. You know, that's very much just a symbol of the whole kind of revolution of women's rights and other rights across the country that they're trying to enforce. So it's very much now just an individual act, which in many ways can make it kind of harder for the authorities to crack down on. You know, they always send more and more revolutionary guards, siege forces into the streets to crack down on these street protests. But how you monitor across and how you crack down on these kind of moments of individual defiance in shopping malls, in schools, in universities, just in the streets outside the home of women across, again, a population of 87 million. It's an enormous country.

How you monitor and check that that's not being violated is much more difficult. That is fascinating to me that that is the picture that you see now in Tehran and that it has taken hold in that way without, as you say, perhaps the crackdown that there was previously on people who took to the streets to demonstrate in

that way. There was one issue I want to just put to you before I let you go, Abi, and that was that there have been reports that women suffered extreme torture or violence in detention there were some of those reports this morning in the paper

what do you know about that if anything? I mean there have been reports creeping out from almost the beginning of violence and torture inside the prisons for protesters who had been arrested. Over the months, we've seen ramping up reports, just increasing and increasing every week of extreme sexual abuse, particularly of female detainees. Again, this could be,

it could also be of male detainees, but we haven't had the same reporting done on that. But yeah, it's become a huge problem. And we've got, there have been so many reports now that it really seems undeniable at this point that it's happening. And we've seen over the years, even before the protests, we've heard reports of sexual abuse and torture inside Iranian prisons. So it tracks with the human rights record for people in detention. I understand. Thanks, Abi. Sorry for stepping on you there almost.

Abi Cheeseman is our Telegraph's Middle East correspondent bringing us up to date on that story that you may have seen. That so many pardons, it says tens of thousands of prisoners in Iran. And we wanted to know exactly the impact that it may have on the women's rights struggle in Iran. And we wanted to know exactly the impact that it may have on the women's rights struggle in Iran.

Now, I want to turn to the song Delilah. I'm just seeing a lot of comments coming in already. Shall I read a couple for you? 844 if you want to get in touch on text. It's just sad.

Let me see, no name. It's just sad that the fans feel it's more important to throw their toys out about it. This is the song Delilah. Then understand that it's name. It's just sad that the fans feel it's more important to throw their toys out about it, this is the song Delilah, than understand that it's offensive. It's a catchy tune and we're apathetic to lyrics generally. I don't think we listen,

but it's a bit hurtful that the fans see this as a control of their rights rather than having it banned as liberating and inclusive for women. Let me see, here's another one. This is from Kath. Dear Woman's Hour, with regards to banning of Delilah,

what will happen to the cell block tango from Chicago celebrating and describing in detail the murders of male partners, one of musical's great performances? Are we supposed to ban that as well? The ban on Delilah makes no sense at all. Well, thanks to everybody getting in touch.

Quite a few comments in already. So if you haven't been following this story, this is what happened. Last week, the Welsh Rugby Union ordered Sir Tom Jones's hit Delilah, that's from 1968, to be removed from its Principality Stadium Choir's song list on the eve of the 2023 Six Nations. The song is about a jealous lover stabbing his unfaithful girlfriend. It's been sung by Welsh fans and something of an alternative sporting anthem.

But the reaction to this ban has been mixed. Some approve, as you've heard a little. Others say they can't understand Heather Ballard's lyrics. A fictional account of a jealous man murdering his wife could be seen as trivialising violence against women. Here's a little with none of the offending lyrics. My, my, my Delilah Why, why, why Delilah

So that's the song. I'm sure most of you are familiar with it already. But what about the people in the town of Pontypridd that's Tom Jones's hometown how did they feel when they heard this was coming in it's quite violent isn't it Delilah and it's uh looking at the the current climate um I don't I think it's inappropriate I got no problem the song has been there the song was written years ago and so why, you know, why change things just for a few people who don't like a few words? Well, I think the fans

will sing it anyway. You know, you can't stop fans singing Canoe, so. I think they should be allowed to sing it. It's just that, you know, you're going to a game

for the fans, aren't you, in the atmosphere. It's just spoiling the atmosphere, isn't it? Spoiling the fans for everybody. OK, the texts and tweets and whatnot keep coming in.

Let me see. The controversy over the singing of the song is maybe understandable in a world trying to disassociate with unfair portrayal and treatment of women and minorities. But songs are just stories and part of our oral history.

Do we go on and end up censoring everything that's produced as a work of fiction? Every book, TV series, film that deals with difficult and horrific themes. One question coming in from Sarah. Let me bring in Ella Whelan, journalist and author of What Women Want.

Good morning, Ella. Good morning. And also Rachel Williams, survivor and campaigner of the stand-up to domestic abuse from South Wales. Good to have you with us as well, Rachel. Thank you, Nuala. So you've been campaigning for years to stop this being sung, if've understood correctly how are you feeling about what's been said so far? Yeah I've been quite vocal about it because I was one of those people who used to sing with gusto

singing to the song not really knowing what the words were and you know I think most people when they don't know the lyrics they put their own in anyway And it's quite interesting since this has all come about, how many people have actually sung the song, not realising what they were actually singing and glorifying. So, yeah, it's quite a good move, I think, about time. But I think you will still get fans singing it. Well, I think that's what happened over the weekend. I was just watching some of the little videos of Welsh fans

that were belting it out outside the stadium and I think a little inside as well. Ella, how do you see it? Well, I don't think that it should be banned. And I know it's only the choirs that have been stopped from singing it. And that's because, you know, as much as the argument goes that singing it sends a message. This is what lots of people, Chris Bryant, the MP for the Rwanda, one of them has argued that the singing of the song glorifies violence and therefore sends a message that domestic abuse is okay. I see it slightly differently. I think actually that by banning the song, the message we're sending out is that women need to have songs banned in order to make us feel protected or indeed to stop violence.

I mean, it's, you know, it doesn't, you don't need to have a kind of PhD in criminology to know that stopping songs is not going to stop the men who are violent to their partners and the women in their life, if only it were that easy. And I think we're in danger of kind of damaging women's freedom and women's agency by suggesting that we need to have to use that terrible phrase that's very very overused safe spaces in you know public places like uh you know a sporting event where um you know people sing and say all kinds of things well let me throw it back to Rachel Ella saying you know it's not going to make any difference to actual perpetrators if people aren't singing this song. Yeah, I totally agree because at the end of the day,

you know, abuse is abuse because they want to abuse, you know, not because of drinks, drugs, singing a song. You know, my perpetrator didn't come and shoot me at point blank range with a saw and off shotgun because he listened to Delilah. He'd done it because he was an abusive person. But what this has actually done is bring awareness to the content of that song and i think you know when people sing it in gusto you know that he had the knife in his hand and she laughed no more ha ha ha i think people love the song and the tune i love the tune and it's quite hard to get it into your head once you hear it and I think it would be good if Sir Tom redone the song with some different lyrics and celebrated the reason why we're talking about it. Well, you know, funny enough, just as you're talking about it, somebody has messaged in

saying, Tom Jones is still here. Why not do a rewrite? Turn it into something positive. It's a great tune. That's what you're campaigning for, among other things. What about that, Ella? Well, you'd have to ask the woman that wrote it. Tom Jones didn't write it. It was written by Sylvan Whittingham. And she pointed out that, you know,

this was based off of the Broadway hit Carmen Jones. And it wasn't written, you know, context matters. This wasn't written as a piece of popular music in order to uh justify or glorify violence against women it was a fictional song written about a fictional story and i think that's really important you know i wouldn't you know go i mean even on basic level of sort of respect for art you know as much as pop music is a kind of art you can't go back and rewrite stuff like that you know it's it's not right but i also

just really want to hammer home this point which is that if we get into the position in which we are you know the reason uh why men who are violent to women do those things is because they see in part they see women as weaker than them as less valuable than them as you know as less than them and what i think we're in danger of doing with you know whether it's this whether it's misogyny a hate crime, whether it's all these kind of acts that are done in the name of protecting women these days, is cementing that view that women are weaker, that we do need protection. And that's a terrible thing, because as a society, we should be doing everything we can to point out and argue that women are just as rough and tough and capable enough as the men in their lives. Rachel? Yeah, absolutely, because every survivor I know, the toughest, strongest people I've ever

met, but equally, you know, it's not a war of the sexes. We don't want to be singing about slaughtering men, and let's not skirt around the fact that 125 women have been killed during March 2021 to March 2022. You know know and we're singing about a song about killing a woman it might be fictional but sadly for some it's facts well go ahead sorry ella go ahead well i was just gonna i wrote because i wrote a piece about this in the telegraph and newly you'll know the example i used is um there's a song that irish babies get sung to it's called i know it yeah i used to sing it if I'm completely being transparent. For English listeners, it's, you know,

she stuck the penknife in the baby's heart. It's terrible. It's terribly violent. What's another line? She pulled the rope and she got hung. I sing it to him, this lad that sat on my knee now when he's got me awake at three o'clock in the morning. I just have to tell our listeners, Ella,

it's a baby on your lap. Yes. And, you know, but the point I'm making, even though I'm sort of being a bit silly here, is that, you know, we are, human beings are complex enough to understand that different things mean different things in different contexts.

And, you know, that I think we should be able to, particularly with art, which songs are, you know, a form of art, be able to differentiate between fact and fiction. Otherwise, we end up on a horrendous slippery slope where, you know, some of the best songs, some of the best bits of, you know, blues music is all about murdering. I mean, a lot of it's about murdering women. Maybe we could have a whole nother program on that and why that's fashionable.

But a lot of it is kind of murder ballads and, you know, Johnny Cash, Folsom Prison, all the rest of it. I think we should not be too sensitive to use that. Well, Laurie got in touch kind of on that point you're making, Ella. It says, Woman's Hour, Banny Annie's song is ridiculous. Where does it stop?

Rap, hip hop country, so sick of policing our words. Fans were right to kick back. Let me throw that to you, Rachel. I mean, where does it stop? There's actually an interesting piece on the BBC website right now as well about operas, you know,

and of course, burned lovers and people being killed and that can happen in an operatic setting or so many theatre settings, of course, we could pull out instances as well. Is this different?

No, I think it's the same because at the end of the day, if you look at slavery, you know, and all the statues that, you know, of the people who endorse slavery is something we've got to be reminded of. And I think totally wiping it out is not going to do anything. We need to remind ourselves. It's like the smoking. You know, nobody would think nothing about smoking in public places until Roy Castle brought it to everybody's attention because he was affected by lung cancer because of it. It's all about education and I think awareness and I think what this has done actually has brought a great debate to why people should or shouldn't sing it. And I think, you know, it is about the content.

OK, a couple more messages coming in. Morag, Delilah, it's a great tune to sing to, but it's just wrong to sing about the murder of a woman by a jealous lover. There's no message or contrition. It's not appropriate. Other songs, performances actually explore the issue and that's okay. It's not censorship, it's common humanity. How would we feel if we were told it was about someone we knew? Yes, people will sing it, but I ask why. I feel uncomfortable singing it in our pub ukulele evening. Banning it won't make a difference. It just normalises violence and makes it OK.

Folk has always reused tunes. Let's do it. Let me see some more that have come in. There's a plethora of songs which lyrics are more than questionable. This from Tristan. Be it some Beatles tracks like I'd Rather See You Dead, Little Girl, Than Be With Another Man, up to the songs of today. With graphic reference to rape, gun, gun crime, excuse me,

and Stabbing's lyrics, I think need to be noticed more as they're quite subliminal and unnoticed by most. And I'm very much a lyricist and I love to hear them. However, many of them are too close to the bone. What about that? Let me go back to you, Ella, that subliminal messaging. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, music and like all kinds of art can have a great effect on us.

And, you know, particularly a song can cause kind of emotional, you know, disturbance in your life. One of the arguments for banning um Delilah was that there might be women who were domestic abuse survivors in the audience of a sporting match who you know have no can't turn it off have to just sit there and and suffer through it and obviously that any kind of humane person can sympathize with the fact that that might be very difficult um but you know we we don't police public spaces on the basis of private feelings, you know, to do so would be to open up a whole realm of problems for ourselves. And, you know, in terms of subliminal

messaging, I, again, I'm a bit kind of uncomfortable with this idea that people aren't thinking, people aren't using their brain to understand the difference between a fictional song and an act in the real world. Nobody actually in the stadium believes that Tom Jones or anyone singing it is talking about a real life crime of an actual knife actually going into somebody. If that was the case, then I think most people would be horrified by it. It's the same reason why we don't watch snuff films. There is a difference between being horrified with it. It's the same reason why, you know, we don't watch snuff films. You know, we don't, you know, there is a difference between being horrified with things that happen in reality

and things that happen in fiction. And also, you know, I think that we should say that women are able to control their emotions. You know, there are lots of things that we might find difficult, that we might find upsetting. I mean, the WRU banned this

because as they, you know, the quote was that it could be upsetting or problematic. I mean, the WRU banned this because as they, you know, the quote was that it could be upsetting or problematic. I mean, Lord knows what that means. It's an incredibly broad term. But, you know, women are able to, I know myself at least, get upset in perhaps in public and then get over it and not need to have an entire song banned in their name. I should say with the WRU, we have spoken about this previously, but they have had allegations of a toxic culture of misogyny,

sexism, racism and homophobia. The chief executive, Steve Phillips, resigned at the weekend, which people might have seen on Sunday. So that is, and actually that's going back a week, that is potentially, although I don't have that

specifically connected, it did happen after that took place. Rachel, although I don't have that specifically connected, it did happen after that took place. Rachel, I'll let you have the last word. You are a domestic abuse survivor. Do you think this ban will hold or expand? I think you're still going to get

the crowd singing it just out of defiance. But I just, you know, just would say, and it was interesting I had a debate on Twitter with a man a couple of years ago and after I gave my points he actually said I totally understand and I'm not going to sing it anymore and I think it is about educating people and I think if you've been directed if you've been affected by domestic abuse and violence

you know indirectly or directly you're not going to want to sing it. That comment also coming in says, it's right, Delilah has been banned as a survivor of domestic abuse. It's triggering to hear chilling lyrics. Your panel's talk of women being as strong as men, sadly, is not true in the realms of domestic abuse. We do need more protection than men. That's the sad reality.

No one believes banning the song will change men's behaviour, but it's not OK to promote it. Wow. This one has obviously got a lot of you messaging us on this Monday morning on Women's Hour. Thanks so much for them. Keep them coming in. And I want to thank both of my guests, Ella Whelan and Rachel Williams. Now, we talked there between fact and fiction.

I'm going to go totally to fiction right now. Cast our minds, cast your mind back to when you were a teenager. What did you read? Bit of Judy Blume, Tick for me, Agatha Christie maybe, Twilight books, Hunger Games. I had, let me see as well, it's quite a bit of Jackie Collins in my library. And also, do you remember the Flowers in the Attic, that whole series, which was quite dark, as I mentioned earlier. But literature written specifically for our teenagers is called young adult fiction or YA fiction. But is it getting too dark? That's the question. There are a lot of themes of self-harm and abuse that are

quite common in it. We do know, as we've spoken about many times in this programme, that young people's mental health is a cause of concern. COVID hasn't helped that. Referrals have spiked and there's lots of long waits to access mental health support. But we're asking, where's the joy? Where's the uplift in the books that teens read today? Are we, are we or the authors, as I look at my next guests, exposing them to too much misery in what they read?

Well, we're going to talk this through with two award-winning authors of young adult fiction. Julia Golding is the writer of the Jane Austen Investigate series under her own name and also writes YA fiction under the pseudonyms Joss Sterling and Eve Edwards and hosts a podcast called What Would Jane Do? which looks at modern life through a 19th century lens. And Holly Byrne is the author of books including the Spinster's Club series and The Places I've Cried in Public. She's also the Youth Ambassador for Women's Aid and works to raise awareness of abusive relationships. Good morning to you both. Holly, let me start with you. You do deal with these serious issues in your books, including emotional abuse and poor mental health. When you hear those concerns, those worries that YA fiction is getting too dark,

what would you respond? I would say I do write about dark things. I would, I guess one thing I would say is my books are very dark, but also very humorous. I think it's really important to have light with the dark. I also would agree that dark books for teenagers can actually have quite happy endings off page. I think giving the right book to the right teenager at the right time, even if it's dealing with a dark theme, could potentially change their life or save their life because it'd be the first time that they feel seen and understood. Sadly, the teen experience comes with real highs but obviously some real lows so um yeah books um can really be like this helping hand and quite a safe space to kind of

explore topics like self-harm and abuse compared to potentially you know the sort of more unfiltered parts of the internet but I would also say that I write about dark stuff but I'm not the only author out there and what's amazing at the moment with teen fiction is it's actually going through a really happy patch. Like Alice Oseman's Heartstopper series is just doing so well. And that's about two teenage boys falling in love and nothing bad happening to them. And the Jenny Han novels is just these lovely, warm romances. And even the winner of a YA book prize this year was a romantic comedy so I just sort of there's when people sort of say YA is so dark I'm like some parts of it is but

honestly I feel like that's really important to have these things addressed and also like there's a whole wide range of books out there for teenagers to read so you know if they're feeling like they want to escape into a comic like a rom-com they can and if they want to explore eating disorders or relationship abuse there's these very well researched well considered novels out there written by very earnest authors who really try hard to write in safe ways um to help them with that experience as well so i'm just a very positive person even though i write about dark things okay and, and we can talk about that, how you make it safe in just a moment. But Julia, I saw you were nodding along with some of that. Tell us a little bit about your approach. How would you describe your books when it comes to these questions about the happier, uplifting,

or indeed these darker themes? I'm definitely on the happier side of this equation, really. And I think one thing I'd like to say is, of course, there needs to be books like Holly's and others. But I'm going to turn to Jane Austen for some guidance. In her last novel, Persuasion, Anne Elliot meets a sea captain who's been reading lots of gloomy poetry. And he's been mourning the loss of somebody and anne elliott says to him those who feel these most need to read them taste them sparingly is the phrase and she goes on to recommend a higher dose of prose in his daily study and i like that idea that you should vary your diet that's what holly was saying But there is a danger which we perhaps need to include in this,

which is there was a study in 2012 and reported on in the New York Times that when you read books about dark subjects such as suicidal thoughts or self-harm or whatever, your brain is actually experiencing these things in a muted but in a real way. It's not just out there, you're internalising it. So there is a danger that you don't get to the end of the book and see the uplift. You have to actually be aware that if you've got a young person who's drawn towards the darker subjects,

you just need to check that they're not entering a spiral. Yes, because of course we inhabit that world that we read. We all do. What about that, Holly? Because you talked about having to make it safe. Some of those issues that Julia just mentioned there, how do you avoid them for your reader? So I take the safeguarding of my readers ridiculously seriously. And I think it's interesting that that study came out in 2012.

I do think there are some very popular why books that are coming out in that time. I, you know, I've dealt with things like suicide very, very badly. And I would hope that if that was rewritten today, it wouldn't be so triggering and it would be safer so I we always work with a psychologist um after my manuscript um has kind of been edited to make sure that things that could be off page are off page I don't really feel like you need to you know graphically describe you know something that could be very triggering and we make sure that there's content warnings um you know we're making things that are as accurate as possible and I think uh most YA books that do deal with these darker subjects actually usually do offer hope and show young people

kind of going through these processes and coming, you know, they do tend to have an element of hope because authors sort of take, with me especially, take the safeguarding very seriously. That's what I was going to ask. Do they always end on a more upbeat note? Mostly. I mean, as I said, there are some books where, you know, especially ones that, you know, there was one about suicide. There was an American book that was made into a Netflix series that, you know, just broke every single safeguarding, you know, rule that exists. And I'd

really hope that we've moved on from there. But I would say most, yes, I kind of feel like the YA industry, particularly in this country, is very earnest and very well-meaning. And it's weird because in some cases we have talks about, oh, YA is too dark, it's too dark. And then it's also kind of like, oh, children's publishing and sensitivity readers, that's taking it too far. And it's like, you know, it's... So they're always talking about this balance.

And I'd be curious you know, it's... followed by the reader's habits. And I just like to make the argument for sort of historical fiction, fantasy, things which aren't problematizing teenage years, that a holiday from yourself is great for mental health. And I'm absolutely sure Holly would be reading this stuff herself and agree with this. I don't think we're at odds on this. So it's very important that we're allowed to just give children and young people stories to enjoy. So if they want to travel back in time or go to another world, that's absolutely right. Because if they're feeling trapped by their world of social media and friends looking at them or bullying or whatever it is, they can just escape through a

book. And that's fantastic. You know, we saw this the other day, Julia, at the University of Greenwich, they put a trigger warning for its students on Jane Austen. Outrageous. They warned that it depicted, just to be clear, gender stereotypes and featured toxic relationships. What do you make of that? That is the stuff of fiction, University of Greenwich. If you're going to put a trigger warning on

Jane Austen, I think you've gone a bit far because... It kind of ties into our previous conversation in some ways. Yes and the Delilah thing, I imagine that Jane Austen, if we're looking at singing Delilah, would probably think

well let's make up another tune, put that out there so people sing that instead, rather than try and ban one kind of thing, offer another. Which one of our listeners did say to rewrite it. I want to read a couple of comments that are coming in right now. I totally agree.

We need more joy in young adult lit. There's so much that is dark and depressing and unhelpful to children navigating a whole lot of real life struggles. They don't need to be confronted by the darkest unrealities in fiction. Even books directed at younger children are following suit now.

Let's have more lighthearted fun. Another one. This is Julia. Teenagers love dark stuff. As a teenager, I avidly read my way through the collected stories of Edgar Allan Poe. I loved them and writing doesn't get much darker. I also remember that we studied Macbeth

and Othello at school where we were known, we were also shown the Hamlet Laurence Olivier version. Dark stuff on the curriculum but we survived exclamation point. Is it different? And I'll throw this out to both of you. Some

of the classical literature that is dark that Julie is talking about and what's on offer now with more contemporary writers? Well, in the classical stuff and in other fantasy stories and those kind of books, you can find reflections of yourself as well. It's not as if they're completely leaving behind your reality. I was reading a lot of Thomas Hardy.

That's super impressive. Is it darker than some of the issues that Holly was raising for example that are very present in I think that the issues have changed so in the Victorian period it would be being an unmarried mother or something like that

would be the huge issue whereas as Holly is saying we're more aware of things like mental health and self-harm and other issues What about that Holly? What do you think? Is it different if somebody's reading Edgar Allan Poe, for example,

compared to a young adult book that deals with self-harm, for example? I'm just happy when teenagers are reading. Okay. And I just think, I always say when I go into schools, there's no such thing as bad reading because there's this incredible organizational

called the empathy lab um that kind of shows is you know it's kind of using science and research to show that reading for pleasure massively increases um a young person's uh capacity to be empathetic which is brilliant for their own life chances in fact being empathetic is means that you improve your academic success over how good your IQ is. And also having an empathetic society is better for society as a whole. And reading for pleasure, as Julia said, is just so good for your mental health, whether that's escaping from your life. You're like, oh, God, just being a teenager is really tough right now. I want to escape into Jane Austen or a romance or something lighter.

Or whether that's making a book that makes sense of your life. I just basically, if teenagers are reading it, it's good for them, I believe, especially compared to, you know, the very violent TV shows that they could be watching. Or last week it came out that children as young as nine are watching pornography. You know, it sort of looks...

I understand what you're saying. If they're reading whatever they're reading, it's a plus. Well, Holly Bourne, thank you so much for joining us. A young adult fiction author. We also have Julia Golding with us in studio on Woman's Hour. Do get in touch. I want to know what you read, what your kids are reading. Maybe you're a teenager listening.

What are you reading? Let us know. 84844. Right, I want to turn from music, reading. Let's turn to sport next because just a few days left to go to get your suggestion in for the Woman's Hour Power List. We're looking for 30 outstanding women in sport, both on and off the field, from the elite to the grassroots.

Just head to Woman's Hour website if you want to submit some names that you'd like to see on that list. Now, if you were listening last Wednesday, that you'd like to see on that list. Now, if you were listening last Wednesday, you will have heard me speaking to two of our judges, one of Britain's most celebrated British Paralympians of all time, Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson and Cricket World Cup winner turned broadcaster Ebony Rainford-Brent. If you want to catch up with that, just go to BBC Sounds and search for Women's Hour episode for the 1st of February. And today you can hear from our third judge, Sam Quek.

Sam was part of the squad who won Britain's first ever hockey gold medal that was at the Rio Olympics in 2016. She also won gold at the European Championships in 2015. Now she is the team captain, the first female team captain on BBC One's Question of Sport. And Sam told me why she's so delighted to be involved. It's so fantastic to be reminded about what brilliant things women are doing

out there, especially from the UK. They are local, they're national. So I'm excited to hear all the different stories from all the different backgrounds and all the different areas because I say women's sports and I will get on to it, is in a great place at the moment but there's always room for improvement, shall we say. Okay, well, let's talk about that then.

You won Olympic gold in 2016. Here we are at the beginning of 2023. How do you feel the momentum or the progress is happening? Listen, I think women's sport is in its best possible place that it's been in in recent times. There's always, as I say, room for improvement. But when you look at the Lionesses going out in the Euros to a packed Old Trafford at their first game,

a packed Wembley sellout, the hottest ticket to have, and then they go on a win, and then you've got pitches on the front of papers, a packed Wembley sellout, the hottest ticket to have. And then they go on a win, and then you've got pitches on the front of papers, making headlines, just absolute coverage goals, basically, for women's sport. It's easy to think, oh, women's sport's there. It is getting the coverage. It is getting what it needs. But actually, it's not, and there still is room for improvement. I mean, we look against again, staying with football,

I know you can't compare the men's game to the women's game, but the disparity is just massive, both on and off the field. I mean, Alessia Russo, record signing, there were talks, I know the time's gone, but 400,000, and then you look at Enzo Fernandez, who's gone for 106 million. Of course, you can't compare the two games, but there's still masses to be done. So I just think that needs to be in both,

as I say, often on the pitch, really. Yeah, so that is women's football that so many people point to as a success story. And you're still kind of talking about the disparity that is there when it's compared to men's. But what about for other sports? Do you feel the women's football helps in that way or does it overshadow um i don't think it overshadows i think from my personal point of

view um i remember going into the olympics and we were being inspired of course by the lionesses um but before us we had the england team winning the Ashes, the England Women's Rugby World Cup that they won well before we won our Olympic gold medal. So they're the teams that inspired us. And I think what's great about female athletes, we do look at each other. We do communicate with each other. And I think the reason we probably look to football because football is king when it comes to sports. That probably is the fact now in women's sport with the huge numbers of participation, the interest that's gone through. So I think we quite often measure where women's sport is. We do look at football.

But from a hockey point of view, Olympic sports point of view, we probably only get our moment in the spotlight and people only realise how amazing hockey is as a sport because they see us competing at an Olympics. And even to see us we have to start winning we have to make semi-finals and finals to be broadcast and to be brought to the forefront to see what we do as a sport and I think that's the case for a lot of non-professional sports which is the case in women's sport. Well let's talk about hockey actually because it is a sport many of us will know from school.

It's commonly taught there. What do you think falls off? Where do you think, you know, that the dip occurs because it's there, people are playing and then it's not getting the attention I would think that you believe it deserves? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'm always going to favor hockey it's my sport it's it's gotten got me to where i am today um but i'm always striving to be better for improvement what can we do and i think ultimately the bottom line comes down to success i think as a sport you have to have success and a good quality of product to promote out to the media to get a greater audience to attract people to the sport and with that we did have the success of 2016 we were on a massive high and people went out and branched and did different things I'm a firm believer that that momentum needs to continue I feel like potentially

hockey has halted a little bit and I think that comes down potentially to experience of who are in the roles whether it's commercial directors whether it's an executive level thing that's why when we talk about sport it's important that it has to be on all levels you know from coaches to grassroots to executive boards and then you look at netball they had the massive success of the gold coast and they're on it they're still on a massive high they're still progressing they've got the domestic league um on sky tv and they're still winning medals and it's still at the forefront so i always i'm a firm believer that there's always room to just keep pushing but for hockey for me i think yeah we we do need to keep pushing because again we've we've got the success we got the commonwealth games gold uh back in birmingham

last year and that's obviously at that elite level. What do you think, though, happens between the younger girls, you know, in school, not keeping it with them you to become an Olympic gold medalist or how did you become an Olympic gold medalist? And I have my answers for that. But I also bring it back round because it's so important to remember that not every young girl who is going to be playing hockey or young boy playing whatever sport it is will go to represent at an elite level. I mean, the percentage is tiny, tiny, tiny, even smaller to become an Olympian, let alone an Olympic medalist. And it's so important that the majority are not forgotten. And it's easy to do that looking at, you know, the best athletes in the country. So for me, the passion comes, well, how do we keep those young girls,

young boys, young girls even more so into sport when it's it becomes a bit awkward around the age of 13 14 when there's other interests which may be you know deemed more cool whether it's going out on a saturday shopping or going you know to a party and when actually you know you've got a sporting fixture how do you choose the sporting fixture over the social fixture it's important for me to get the right mix. But definitely to make sport cool, to make it something that people want to be involved in and want to be seen doing. It's so interesting. I think we could probably do a whole series on that as well, about making sport cool. Because it is often viewed at that elite level as very cool.

But yeah, just doing it on your Saturday morning, how does that become part of people's lives, particularly as girls get a little bit older? But I will say you are team captain on A Question of Sport

on BBC One. So you are out there. You are a role model. Yeah. Are female athletes and women's sporting success celebrated enough on the show? I think so. Yeah, there's plenty more female enough on the show? I think so.

Yeah, there's plenty more female athletes on the picture board now, questions, mystery guests. And I like to say there's a lot more people getting the right answers because these female athletes are exposed a lot more than what they used to be. Being the first female in question sport, I took a lot of pressure into that because naturally, you know, change happens.

Some people don't like change, but I felt as a woman, I was also going to have, you know, be under the microscope a lot more than my male counterparts. And that proved the case both in interviews and social media. And so I just wanted to go in and do a good job and represent ultimately. But I think when it comes to role models, I that's so so important for women's sport and I think a lack of role models from all different backgrounds means that I think young people don't realize what they can achieve so whether it is a question of sport captain whether it's being on a hockey pitch football pitch it's so so important and also to authentic. I think sometimes as a woman and as a female athlete, it's easy to be accused of being crazy, hormonal, emotional, you know,

when you're passionate, for example, Serena Williams on the tennis court, you know, she's emotional, a bit, a little bit crazy. She lost it. However, if you see a Ronaldo get angry, start shouting at the officials, you know, he's passionate. He loves it. You know, it cares. It cares. It means more to him. And I think that's really important to recognise that disparity when it comes to women. You're reminding me, Sam, actually, I was watching a little bit of Novak Djokovic the other day, you know, and when he won in Australia, like he sat on the side of the court and cried his eyes out like proper sobs

into a towel. And I was like, yeah, probably might be viewed a little bit differently if it were a female athlete. Exactly. I mean, we saw it in Tokyo. I think Andy Murray pulled out of his Olympic game at the Olympics and he's got an injury. He's albeit it was a it was a quad injury and then Simone Biles pulled out uh because she wasn't mentally um secure enough and didn't feel right to perform her moves which could be life-threatening yeah yeah she was called being selfish letting the team down and I just think you know it's a mental injury physical injury but they were viewed so different and I think it was a case of being a male and a female, let alone physical and mental. So it's important that we do

have that leeway for women to be themselves, to be role models. Thanks so much to Sam Quek giving us her thoughts on women and sport. At the moment, she is, of course, one of our powerless judges.

I want to talk about the comments of another. Maybe you heard me mention there our sports star, Ebony Rainford-Brent, who was with us last week on the programme. She was talking about cricket instead. And Ebony said that the women's product is growing at a faster rate

than the men's in India. People are really excited about what's possible for the women's game. Last week in India, five franchises for the inaugural Women's Premier League have been sold for £465 million. That's record breaking. The WPL takes place in March. It's a women's version of the Indian Premier League, the world's biggest 2020 franchise competition.

So let's talk more about the significance of the women's game, both in India and its global significance. I'm joined by Janvi Mule, a sports reporter for the BBC in Mumbai. Welcome to Women's Hour. Hello, and I'm so glad that we are talking so much about sports today. We sure are. And I want to talk specifically about women's cricket. You know, Ebony was saying that it was growing at a faster rate than the men's. Is that what you see? Yes. In fact, recently, when the Women's Cricket Premier League, which is set to

take place from this year, Women's Premier League, it was the rights for that have been sold for more than £465 million. That's a huge amount of money which will be spent on women's cricket. It shows there is excitement, there is a lot of enthusiasm and expectation from women cricketers, not just in terms of just another league, but it's also the performance

of Indian women's team in recent time that has contributed to all this excitement and buzz around it. And I'm wondering with that money 465 million pounds boom how will that sponsorship then reflect for the women that are playing I mean will it change the earnings for example I know it will change their visibility. Yes, it will definitely add to visibility because, you know, till very recently, women's cricket games were not broadcast as frequently in India or anywhere else. But that has changed in last one decade. But before that, you know, for any sports person, it is important to make sure that, you know, their finances are taken care of. It's the basic thing in a professional setup.

But that was not the case with women's cricket for a long time in India. That started changing. And with this amount of money, it is an encouragement factor that, know that comes in there just months ago BCCI also got pay parity for international women cricketer which is important because when the governing body is treating women players same as mains player it it it says a lot of lot about how much confidence they have in the team. And it also acts as a dose of inspiration for young girls who want to take this sport as a career. I can give you one example. Before Indian Premier League started for men, there were very limited amount of avenues that a male cricketer could have. But Indian Premier League

did add some form of, a way of collecting money as you play. That has also acted as an inspiration because similar leagues at local levels sprang up and all those cricketers who were putting their sweat and blood into the game, they got opportunity to play. We hope that something similar can happen for women cricketers as well. It's so interesting. You mentioned the BCCI,

that is the Indian Cricket Control Board that, of course, is playing a big part in the country as well. You know, when we talk about Indian cricket, Sachin Tendulkar often comes to mind. He is almost deity-like status among many Indians. Is there a woman you're watching who could be on the same path? Well, if you ask me, we believe, I believe that there are a couple of players like Mitali Raj, who recently retired.

She is, so many people consider her to be the Sachin Tendulkar of women's cricket. But yes, recently Shefali Verma, who captained India's under-19 team to T20 World Cup victory in junior category, just recently, last week in South Africa people are already you know expecting a lot from her and they have very high hopes for her so there are a couple of players like Smriti Mandhana or Harman Prit Kaur who have been doing really very well and the interesting thing that I have realized is that nowadays people also know names of all these players. 10-15 years ago when I started, that was not the case. I remember in 2009, I covered a World Cup in England where both men's and women's tournament were happening at the same time.

Indian men's team couldn't pass the group stage but at the same time girls reached semi-final and suddenly there was so much of excitement and people started searching for the names of all these players it was quite funny to watch actually but it was also sad now that thing has completely changed and we're going to be watching I think of what their salaries will be

I know a lot of them used to have to have second jobs, but maybe that will change for those at the top at least. Janvi Mule, sports reporter for the BBC in Mumbai. Thanks so much. Very exciting. £465 million paid for the inaugural Women's Premier League

franchises, five of them, that will be getting underway. I want to thank everybody who's been getting in touch with Women's Hour this morning. Let me see Sporting Shiros, as a hockey player love not only hearing Sam Quek on BBC Women's Hour but also the tribute she's playing to so many other women's sports as well.

Let's keep it front and mind for women the thing. Back to books. My sister and I are driving back from our holidays, listening and discussing all of Jacqueline Wilson's books, which were our favourites as teenagers. She focused on divorced families,

damaged relationships, eating disorders, abuse, etc. They were brilliant and felt three-dimensional and real, which is what a lot of teenagers want. And they want to explore these concepts in a safe way. That's Claudia. Claudia, thanks for having us on, keeping us company. Also, another getting in touch saying it's very, very difficult to find anything that doesn't have

a huge, very dark issue in it and not super superficial. Looking for books for her daughter and it covers everything from 12 upwards and it's very hard to separate out exactly which book works for which part.

Of course, very different if you're 12 or if you're 18. I want to let you know, tomorrow on Woman's Hour we will be taking a deeper look into the last eight years of Shamima Begum, the Bethnal Green schoolgirl who ran away to join, of course, the Islamic State group when

she was just 15. I'm joined by the BBC's Joshua Baker. I'm listening to his podcast. It's just fascinating. Also Professor Gina Bale. She's an expert in terrorism. She'll also be with us looking at the role of women in so-called Islamic State. And it will all be coming up tomorrow right here

on Woman's Hour beginning at 10am and I really hope you will join us then. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello there. I'm Simon Armitage and I've just walked into That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. So pull up a virtual seat next to me and listen in on my chit-chats with the great and good of this world. People who've stopped by for a natter and a cup of tea, but often end up burying a little bit of their soul or spilling the beans. If you'll allow me several good old-fashioned mixed metaphors for a moment. Listen through the keyhole by searching for The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed on BBC Sounds.

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