Woman's Hour - Jazz pianist Zoe Rahman, Allegra Stratton's resignation, Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, Germany's abortion law

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

Jazz musician Zoe Rahman has been described as one of the brightest stars on the contemporary jazz scene. She takes influence from her English, Irish and Bengali heritage to write music with swing, lyricism and intimacy. She’s a MOBO Award winner, British Jazz Award winner and now an Ivors Composer Award winner. She speaks to Emma - unfortunately we aren't able to include her live music performances in the podcast for copyright reasons. We discuss the resignation of senior government advisor Allegra Stratton over the Downing Street party video, with Daily Mail columnist Sarah Vine and the Mirror's Political Editor Pippa Crerar.Richard Ratcliffe, the husband of British-Iranian detainee Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe talks to Emma about his recent 21 day hunger strike outside the Foreign Office in London and his ongoing campaign to secure his wife's release from Iran, and he and their daughter face another Christmas without her.German leader Angela Merkel has officially left office after 16 years and a new chancellor, Olaf Scholz has been confirmed. His party, the centre-left Social Democrats now have a substantial majority in a three-way coalition government. But the new chancellor has already faced opposition from conservatives over plans to reform abortion law. How will he impact the lives of women in Germany? Chief Political Editor, Michaela Kuefner from Deutsche Welle, joins Emma to discuss.The revival of Sex and the City – a new series called And Just Like That… airs tonight on Sky TV. It comes at the same time as a brand new TV show on Prime – Harlem – focuses on four ambitious best friends navigating relationships and careers. Emma speaks to Dr Kadian Pow – who teaches Sociology and Black Studies at Birmingham City University.Image: Zoe Rahman Credit: Ilze Kitshoff

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Last night, the government announced that England was indeed moving to Plan B Covid rules, which, crudely summarised, means don't go to the office, but you can go to Christmas parties. And speaking of which, and following on from our conversation yesterday, where so many of you got in touch to share your reactions to that leaked video of the Prime Minister's former spokesperson,

Allegra Stratton, practising a mock press conference in which her colleagues joked about what her response might be if she was asked about Christmas parties at Number 10 during lockdown last December. Do tell me how that will affect your following of these rules. We were only talking about this yesterday and the rules came in last night, or rather were announced last night to come in this Monday. Let me know. But the other development yesterday was a resignation, not of a minister, not of a civil servant, but one Allegra Stratton, very tearfully tendering her resignation and offering apologies outside of her London home. Is it significant

that the only person to resign so far over the Downing Street parties is a woman, and a woman who didn't even intend them? My first guest today thinks this is another prime example of what she calls the pure sexism at the heart of British politics. But what about you? You can text me here at Woman's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour. Or email us through our website. And I should say, we did invite a member of the government

onto the programme this morning and had no response. Also on today's programme, what a treat, we have the multi-award winning jazz musician Zoe Rahman poised at the Woman's Hour Grand Piano. Okay, I'm going to be honest, we're squatting in Radio 3 studios at the moment. There isn't an official Woman's Hour Grand Piano, but I'd very much like there to be one. And we're taking it for while we have it. She is ready to take us to a beautiful place far from here with some music coming up shortly. And as Angela Merkel steps down as German Chancellor to cast our eye across to Germany, why her successor is already feeling the wrath of some over women's rights. And just like that, Sex and the City is back this evening, or as some are calling the revival of the popular 90s sitcom,

Sex and the 50s. What will have changed to reflect older women's lives today? All that to come. But first, yesterday, Allegra Stratton resigned as a senior government advisor following an angry backlash over that video of Number 10 staff joking about holding a Christmas party. The video obtained by ITV showed the Prime Minister's then-Press Secretary, days after Downing Street are reported, or rather there is reports of a Downing Street party,

laughing over how to describe it. Delivering an emotional statement, Allegra Stratton said she would regret those remarks for the rest of my days. My remarks seemed to make light of the rules. Rules that people were doing everything to obey. That was never my intention. I will regret those remarks for the rest of my days and I offer my profound apologies to all of you at home for them. And Legastraton yesterday. Boris Johnson also apologised for the video during Prime Minister's Questions yesterday at noon at the Dispatch Box. Just before coming on air, I spoke to the journalist Sarah Vine, who's written a column today featured on the front page of the Daily Mail,

asking why is it always the woman who carries the can? She, of course, was until recently the partner of Cabinet Minister Michael Gove, who is referred to, or rather which is referred to in this interview. I began our conversation by asking why she felt so strongly to write a column about women taking the blame in British politics. Exactly that, Emma. Why is it always the women who have to do the sensible thing? I don't know.

I just felt really sorry for Allegra. She was clearly really distraught when she did the statement. And the thing is that she, there's no suggestion that she was at the party, if it was a party. I think we would probably have to think about redefining the concept of a party. What is a party?

When is a party not a party? But anyway, she obviously wasn't at it. That video was her rehearsing for a potential press conference. And I thought there was something also quite sinister about it because, you know, we all have in our professional life, we all have moments where, you know, we rehearse stuff or we, you know, if someone read an article that I'd only half written, they would think it was total and utter rubbish

because it's only half written, they would think it was total and utter rubbish because it's only half written. That was her basically being tested to see if she could fail and stuff. And I think that for her to take responsibility when she didn't really need to was just something that I think a lot of women do. We do. We take these things on our shoulders. She shouldn't have been the person resigning. I mean, the element, though, where people perhaps do not have the sympathy is that her laughing and joking about it, which you also cover. And, you know, she seemed particularly aggrieved that that may have come across that she was laughing at people's expense in lockdown. I think she was laughing because she was nervous, actually. I don't think she was laughing at people's expense in lockdown? I think she was laughing because she was nervous, actually. I don't think she was laughing at people's expense in lockdown. I think she was laughing at this. I think she was, it was nervous laughter because of the sort of difficulty of the situation and the difficulty

of the question. But of course, the clip is the clip. The clip is the clip. But also, you just have to bear in mind, of course, we don't believe she went to that party. And there's also been now reports of other parties since then, whether was the thing of her the thing of her having her face sort of having her of her becoming the sort of face of this disaster um i just felt that was really actually deeply unfair and i and and i was and i just can't believe that you know nobody stood up and also took the blame do you know what i mean i just to't believe that, you know, nobody stood up and also took the blame. Do you know what I mean? I just, to just let that, to just let her just take, to be the fall guy for that

and to be the focus of everybody's anger. I mean, of course people are right to be angry, actually. Completely right to be angry. But, you know, to make her the focus, which is what happened when they released that clip, it's just, I just think really, really below the belt, I have to say, I just do. I mean, you say in your piece, she's the only one who had the balls to take responsibility for this mess by resigning. Who else do you think should resign? Well, I mean, if she's going to resign, then, you know, that Ed chap who was asking her the

questions in a sort of snarky way. Ed Oldfield from the media press. He was asking a snarky question. So, you know, where's him? Where is he? Why hasn't he stood up to the plate? As for the rest, I don't know. I mean, I had no idea whether who was at this party,

who wasn't at this party. I certainly wasn't. There are some absolutely stinging articles, though, this morning from papers which are often seen as Conservative supporting, with carrying reports speaking to Conservative MPs who are saying if the Prime Minister knew about this party, his position is untenable. Where do you come out on that? Because you're asking for someone other than Allegra Stratton

to carry the can. Well, the problem with this whole situation is that the rules were very draconian and everybody was expected to obey by them. And, you know, at the time that this was supposedly going on, people were being fined for, you know, doing the wrong thing, unwittingly, wittingly, whatever. You know, there were people who didn't get to see their dying relatives,

people who didn't get to see their, you know, I mean, it was just, everybody was struggling with lockdown. And so I think, you know, lawmakers can't be lawbreakers. That's the problem. And if you are going to impose, I mean, I was very sceptical about lockdown anyway. So, you know, I come from that position. But if you are going to impose these rules and you're going to make people abide by them, I'm afraid you have to set the example. And for me, that's just a sort of line in the sand, really.

You, of course, have had a front row seat to politics in a way that a lot of people do not, having lived with a member of this cabinet. Do you think anyone from the cabinet, including the Prime Minister, should resign over this? Well, it's very difficult to say, because the thing is that I completely understand that the Prime Minister wouldn't have known if this was happening, because if you're stuck in that number 10 flat, you know, you've no idea what's going on in the rest of the building. Sorry, there are reports, just to say, I know this isn't your story, but there are reports that he actually popped his head into one of these parties and said, gosh, it's very crowded in here. That is a report, but that is one of the reports.

OK, well, I mean, it's a sticky wicket then. It's a sticky wicket, I'd say. That's, you know, that's, it's tricky. I mean, you know. Tricky for him to continue? Well, I mean, I wouldn't want to preempt any investigation. I mean, Simon Case is doing the investigation and, you know, he's a very good egg and I'm sure he'll get to the bottom of it.

But I think, you know, if rules are being broken, rules are being broken and, you know, if rules are being broken, rules are being broken. And, you know, these are your rules. So if you're found to have broken them. You've got to take a long, hard look at yourself in the mirror at that stage, I think. You say that you're the last person or you try to be the last person to reach for allegations of sexism. But you see sexism here. Do you think the prime minister is running a sexist organisation? No, I don't think that's true. I think politics is sexist. I think that's got anything to do

with the Prime Minister. Actually, funnily enough, I think he's... Well, he could change it. He could. But I think he's actually quite good at employing women. I think, I said in my piece, you know, that politics is one of those it's it's very sexist and they don't even realize they're doing it that's the thing it's it's not conscious sexism it's just sort of ingrained do you know what i mean i mean the sort of basic idea is that if you're a man your opinion is more important and more valid than a woman's and it's just it's just sort of

there this is just in the culture um and it's and i think it's it's it's very hard to eradicate because uh it's the way politics works the way it's structured is it's it's really not geared to women at all do you know what i mean in the sense that you know we have a we do operate differently from men and i think that's a good thing. But the whole thing is set up to work for men, because it was invented by men, for men. And I don't really think an awful lot has changed. And the women who do succeed tend to be the ones who operate best

under the sort of masculine circumstances, if you see what I mean, who are quite good at playing the game. And the sort of the kind of more feminine ones just get chewed up and spat out. You say quite simply, there are a lot of people around the prime minister who didn't like the idea of a couple of women. You're talking about Carrie Simmons, as was, and now, of course, Carrie Johnson, who used to work as a PR in the Conservative operation. And I'm also referring to Allegra Stratton.

There are a couple of women, a couple of people, excuse me, a lot of people around the Prime Minister who didn't like the idea of a couple of women having so much influence who still don't, which may explain the leak. And you go on to say the fact that she's the only member of the team with the balls to take responsibility for this mess shows how wrong they are.

Aren't they all ashamed of themselves? So it's the operation around the prime minister that still does this to women, in your view? I think so, yeah. I'd say so. I'd say it's the operation. I mean, it is just that culture. It's a very, very, very male culture.

We will see what happens today. 24 hours is a long time in politics. It also comes at the same time as the government is asking again for there to be more restrictions and for people to follow that. But thank you very much for your insights, Sarah Vine. It's a pleasure, Emma. in that leaked video that was leaked to ITV, in that interview, and the possibility of him resigning. He has not resigned, and we contacted him for his response, but did not receive one. You have been sending us your responses, though, an anonymous one here, Sarah Vine, absolutely spot on.

Why on earth should Allegra Stratton take the flat? But Jo says, do not make a victim out of Allegra Stratton. We saw her rehearsing lies she was prepared to tell on behalf of the government. This woman was once a journalist. She was laughing. For Sarah Vine to come out and make up excuses for her is as insulting as the video. For women's hour to run with that is worse. Allegra Stratton resigned because the evidence was indisputable. We saw it. Well, Ruthie says she's resigning as her position is untenable.

She's regretful she got caught out, not regretful for the disrespect and disdain for all those who followed the rules in the most difficult of circumstances. Fiona says, I think it's right she had to resign. She couldn't be trusted in her role any longer. However, she has been hung up to dry as the woman to be held responsible.

But where are the others who were there, who organised it? Where are all the men who were obviously there and no one else has come forward to share the blame? That's from Fiona. And so it goes on. Many, many more messages pouring in. Please do let me know what you think.

84844 is the number you need. Or on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Let me speak now to Pippa Criara, who's the political editor at The Mirror and the woman breaking most of these stories about all of these parties to Pippa Kriara, who's the political editor at The Mirror, and the woman breaking most of these stories about all of these parties. Pippa, we spoke yesterday, that seems a very, very long time ago now. Yeah, 24 hours is a long time in politics, let alone a week, Emma. What do you make, first of all, of what you just heard from Sarah Vine? Well, I think a lot of what she says about this sort of macho culture is right. But of course, her take on it is very much one of the Tory party and in particular this number 10 operation.

I don't think that is necessarily spread right you know, whether they're politicians or the advisers around them, who, you know, very much sort of reject that cultural approach. But it is one that exists in number 10. Could I just pause you there, Pippa, because we just talked about 24 hours being a long time in politics. This isn't politics per se, but a piece of breaking news. The Prime Minister and his wife, Carrie, have announced the birth of a healthy baby girl at a London hospital earlier today. So just wanted to say that was now confirmed and bring that into this because the Prime Minister's in-tray busy as ever,

but perhaps busier now that he may go on paternity leave. Who knows when that all may not happen. I just wanted to bring that to our listeners as we have it. But you were saying about the atmosphere within his workplace and how that plays out. Yes, and obviously there are a lot of pressures on the Prime Minister. A new baby is, of course, a very intense one and it's lovely news, but it doesn't mean from a political or journalistic perspective that the questions are going to stop.

And I do think that it's very striking that it was Allegra Stratton that resigned, not just because she's a woman, but because it says a lot about her as a person. And anybodyatton that resigned, not just because she's a woman, but because it was a very, you know, it says a lot about her as a person. And anybody listening to that statement, yes, it's a year on, and yes, she didn't resign at the time, but anyone listening to that statement yesterday would see that she was clearly very heartfelt.

And, you know, I certainly got the impression that she felt she was doing the right thing by standing down and felt very poorly about it, very badly about it. Well, there's a contrast. There's a debate, isn't there, about that response or your response on a human level to that, even within our messages. Who should go, Pippa?

Well, ultimately, the buck stops with the boss, doesn't it? And what Allegra resigned over was the video rather than the fact that the parties were taking place. Obviously, there's an investigation going on, but I just contrast her approach with those of, for example, Dominic Cummings, who doubled down and stood firm over the Barnard Castle saga, and the Prime Minister's approach over the last week,

doubling down, initially saying that there was no, his spokesman saying there was no party, him saying no rules had been broken, and now saying that he was told that actually no, you know, he wasn't aware of it until um until recently um it's assumed that the rules weren't broken um you know the buck stops at the top and it does seem to me that if the cabinet secretary determines that these events did take place they need to be extremely open about what rules they say were stuck to if that's their defense and you know really we all need to see extremely open about what rules they say we're stuck to, if that's their defence.

And, you know, really, we all need to see those results. But if it's found that they were in breach of the rules at the time, then it has to stop with the prime minister. And even if they do find some loophole, which means that somehow they can get round the legalities of it, it seems to me that they are absolutely against the spirit of the rules when everybody else was making such sacrifices. And again, the buck has to stop at the top. There will be, of course, some listening to this thinking, we don't need to lose the Prime Minister over this. But there are reports today from his own backbenchers, anonymous reports, I should say, or anonymous comments, saying exactly as you have said, that if it

is found to be the case, then his position is untenable. There are others, of course, in the cabinet who have joked about these parties, namely Jacob Rees-Mogg, the leader of the House. Yes, and he hasn't gone. Yeah, he's appearing in front of MPs today at business questions. It'll be interesting to see whether anybody makes exactly that point that he also joked about the fact that police weren't investigating a year on. And yet he doesn't seem to have received the same scrutiny. This was a joke in a speech, wasn't it, that he was making?

It was a joke in a speech. It was recorded. So there's, you know, anybody can go online and have a look at it. See what you think. See whether you think it's better or worse than what happened to the Lega Stratum and what should happen to him. Is he more valuable to the prime minister, perhaps? Will he be protected? Is that because he's a man or is that because he's one of the members of his top team and popular with the Tory backbenchers and under the Tory members? You know you have to make your own judgment on that but it does seem to be a striking difference between her decision to go and others decisions to double down

and you know there are others as you rightly say who are in that room. There's a lot of Tory anger about this on the backbenchers. I don't think necessarily it's going to floods of MPs writing letters to the 1922 committee and trying to topple him right now but it does feel like it might be a bit of a tipping point he's kind of gained a reputation as sort of a Teflon Prime Minister who bounces back from all these scandals but

the anger on the back benches and more importantly out there in the country which the MPs will pick up on, does feel like a tipping point. Not necessarily immediately, but it doesn't feel like a very good day or a very good period for the Prime Minister. Thank you very much indeed, Pippa Criallo,

political editor at The Mirror, the woman at the heart of many of these stories and revelations. Pat, who's messaged in from Dublin, good morning. I do feel sorry for Allegra Stratton, that she's the only person to take the full blame for this number 10 party. She wasn't at the party. She was caught out by a role-playing joke,

albeit in very bad taste. Another one, though, I'm distraught, Emma. First, Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, resigning. We are but a joke. Now this, I've honestly never felt so disgusted that while people and children died with no one around, they were having parties and laughing at us. Boris Johnson should resign as he lied.

But another one here saying absolutely correct with regards to Allegra Stratton's resignation. She was rehearsing lines to spill to the public. She was prepared to accept that and carry it out. And just because she's a woman does not in any way absolve her of guilt from another woman. I don't think anybody was saying it was absolving of guilt. It was more the comment that it was striking that it's only a woman

and a woman at that level, as opposed to ministerial level, who has seemingly become the fall woman or the fall guy to this particular situation. So the messages continue to roll in. 84844 is the number you need. But I've just been joined in the studio by Richard Ratcliffe, the husband of British Iranian detainee Nazanin Zakari Ratcliffe. And the last time Richard and I spoke was day 11 of his 21 day hunger strike. Richard, you may remember, had been protesting outside the Foreign Office, demanding the government do more to secure his wife's release from Iran. To remind you, Nazanin was arrested there in 2016 while taking the couple's daughter, Gabriela, to see her parents and her family and was accused of plotting to overthrow the government. She was sentenced to five years imprisonment and this week her case is being raised in parliamentary debates and a Christmas charity single is due to be released for Nazanin. Richard, good morning. Morning Emma. I'm happy to see you looking like you've probably had something

to eat this morning. Yes, no, feeling fuller, feeling healthier than the last time we spoke and certainly a lot warmer. I imagine though, just on you, if I may for a moment, it's quite hard to go back to eating and drinking after that. You have to be quite careful, don't you? Yeah, yeah. So I, I mean, as you said, I did a hunger strike for 21 days. At the end of it, went off to hospital. Had to be quite careful in what I ate and ate very slowly. And it's a bit like for those who struggle with eating disorders and have to then start eating again,

that you have to be very careful in not introducing too much into your body too quickly. So, yeah, it was being watched quite carefully a number of times. Back to eating normally now, but it was a couple of weeks when my body was reacting a bit strangely and things were going down and up and so on. And how do you look back on your mind from that time? Because the mind changes without food.

Yes. So when in the middle of a hunger strike, you tend to sort of be like as the body sort of shuts down certain peripheral bits, mentally a little bit as well, and you get a bit sort of tunnel visioned and stubborn and not very good at listening to others, which wasn't my greatest strength in the beginning. I always find you eminently reasonable.

It's commented on by lots of our listeners as well. I'm not sure if the relatives would agree with that one. Or indeed my daughter always. But yeah, no, it probably took a while to come back to normal, if that makes sense. And, you know, I remember going back to the flat and and it was a bit of a bomb site with you know poor little girls toys everywhere and and kind of that visible kind of everyone just coping day to day and and trauma so so we're back to normal now

i think emotionally and and and back to work and so on and physically and obviously making sense of well what did we achieve and what didn't we achieve? And that's what we should talk about. Where are you up to with your campaign, with your fight? It's a really good question. I think we, you know, the main purpose of the hunger strike was to keep Nazni out of prison. She is still not in prison and has not been summoned just yet. So that's a good sign. I think, as you were saying, there's an awful lot more awareness in Parliament and an awful lot of kind people came up during the hunger strike and then actually subsequently, as you were saying, there's a band called The Christians who've done a charity single that's coming out.

There's a Mums March tomorrow. There's carol singing happening in 10 days' time. So lots of things that people have initiated and said, listen, can we do something to show that we care? Beyond that, in terms of where the government is, which is the crux of it, it still feels like they're giving the same answers in Parliament. I've got the same statement.

When we asked for the latest statement from the Foreign Office, unless my memory serves me incorrectly, Iran's decision to proceed with these baseless charges against Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe is an appalling continuation of the cruel ordeal she's going through. Iran should urgently release all those British nationals unfairly detained in Iran. The Foreign Secretary, Minister Cleverley and senior officials consistently raised the cases of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, Anousheh Ashouri and Mourad Tarbaz with the Iranian authorities and will continue to do so. I mean, maybe it's slightly different, but the sentiment of it is the same. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think the broad sentiment is unchanged.

It's certainly the bits that are sort of problematic around, you know, what's the government doing about its debt and solving that and what's the government doing to actually stop Iran from taking hostages. Probably the bit that's positive there, though, is the government for the longest time would always talk about Nazanin as being a dual national. Actually, in that message there, they've just called her British. One of the battles we've had behind closed doors was to say, listen, you can't treat people like they're second-class citizens.

You know, British citizenship means British citizenship, and she's being held because of her British passport. You need to stand up for her. I think it's very important to point out, however subtle the changes may seem, how big they are. But I suppose that top line, you know, it's an appalling continuation of the cruel ordeal. Essentially, nothing has changed, though, with her status from the measures that the government, our government, have taken. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think we's fair.

I think we're still in the middle of it. Have you met with Liz Truss? So I did in the middle of the hunger strike, probably prior to the last time we spoke. I was pushing quite hard to meet with her before Christmas. She was unavailable. And I had a bit of a rant behind closed doors, to say, listen, that doesn't land well. I, you know, I mean, it just looks like we're not a priority.

And, yeah, I think my sense is that the government is keeping it at arm's length at the minister level, so Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary, which is not a good sign. From the point of view of if there's any progress to getting Nazanin home? Yeah, if there was good news, I'd expect we'd be held a bit closer. I think the fact that we're being kept at arm's length is a sign that no good news is coming. And how many Christmases will this be?

So this is number six that we've been apart. And probably, you know, for Nazanin, she was all right. I mean, last time we spoke, she was terrified about her husband being on hunger strike and camping on the street and the rest of it. Hugely relieved, along with the rest of the family when it was over and and um you know a little bit of sort of carmelation and so on and then as we've got closer to another landmark of another christmas apart and you know feeling like how much longer is this going to go on and how much of my life is being robbed here um she's been very low the last couple of days um and you know we were

putting up the christmas lights and the decorating the tree at the weekend and she was able to sort of see us doing it on on skype but because she we should just remind our listeners she's at home that's right she's not yet in prison with your parents she's at with with her in with yeah with my in-laws and her parents um so formally she's awaiting a call to say come back to prison, but it hasn't happened. But she's still stuck there. You must miss her. I can't imagine how much you miss her as her husband. Yeah.

So much. It's been a long, long time. And I find it's hard at points, because most of the time she puts a brave face on, as we all do with those we love. And then every so often the mask will slip and she'll just, you know, reveal just how... Yeah, depressed she is, how, you know, she's been crying all day.

And there, of course, it's always hard to know what to say. Like, you know, how do you make it better? I'm not sure, apart from battling on, there is a magic wand, you know, keeping the government honest, keeping, you know, them to be straight on their stories. And there's talks today about Iran and the nuclear deal and where that's going to get to, and Nisrash, the Foreign Secretary, has been making announcements with regards to that. But, you know, it just keeps coming back to this debt,

this £400 million debt that we, the country, the UK, it's been accepted by many that we owe. And you've not heard any more on that? No, no. And in fairness, the Foreign Secretary was speaking yesterday, I think it was at Chatham House, and, you know, again said, listen, there are complicated reasons without going into what they are. No, we've not heard any progress

and the government won't explain to us what the problem is. And I think that's right. There's bigger context of nuclear stuff and so on going on, which is all looking a bit less hopeful at the moment. Because that's a different focus completely. Well, it's probably mood music, isn't it? So probably if things are going badly in other areas, that will affect us.

Actually, our story is quite simple in that sense. It's about a specific pot of money. And we'll see what unfolds. Every time we speak, which I'm always grateful for you coming on, I always want to ask on behalf of our listeners who get in touch to us, is there anything that they can do it does it does it help you and nazanin to to i don't know you know hear

their support and and what they say about this for sure for sure all the care and the concern that that she can see online that i can you know see online that um you know people that come down whether we're having a mum's march or carol singing on the 20th of december from the downing street um all gratefully appreciated so thank you to everyone that cares and follows our story and and you know keeps us in the light and just finally how's gabriella yeah okay okay we were putting up the lights it was a reasonably critical about her dad is decorating how old is she now she's seven and a half seven and a half that's what i thought she's not quite eight. Okay.

So definitely, you know, she decided this year, last year we had a letter to Father Christmas that she asked me on Christmas. Are you sure Father Christmas actually got this letter? Because if I look at the presents, I say, well, there was a bit of lockdown, a bit tricky for him last year. A good woman, she's holding you to account.

So this year we're leaving the letter by the plate of carrots so that Father Christmas can do a final check well Richard I'm so happy that you can at least also have that focus at the same time send our best to Gabriella Richard Radcliffe there with the latest on his case and also the latest on

Nazanin and I provided that statement the latest one from the Foreign Office now I did promise you to take you somewhere else, and there's somebody who's going to help me do that with the help of jazz musician Zoe Rahman, often described as one of the brightest stars on the contemporary jazz scene. She's won a MoBo, a British Jazz Award,

and if that wasn't enough, last night she was given the Impact Award at the 2021 Ivers Composers Award at the British Museum. Zoe, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. It's lovely to have you here. I could keep listing all your accolades. Oh, it's fantastic to be here. Thank you for having me. And, you know, that does, that particular one that I mentioned last night, it recognises the impact you've made on the scene over your 20-year career. Yeah, when you put it like that, it has been quite a while I've been around.

What does it mean to you, though? It means a huge amount, to be honest, because it's given by other composers, musicians, you know, who really understand the music, understand what it is to be a composer, and recognise, you know, the body of work that I've put out in all that time. It's funny, as a composer, you know, you write music in isolation on your own, and then you, you know, for me as a jazz musician, I play that, perform it for other people with other musicians. And, you know, not with any intention of getting things like an Ivan Novello.

So that came completely out of the blue. But, you know, the fact that people have listened to my music and it's meant something. I mean, I like to just bring a bit of joy and hope to the world through my music. We need that. Especially in these times. Yeah, it's just nice to be recognized in that way and on the composing side you know of course we talk about the need to get more women into all areas of life but but particularly on the composing side i

imagine in music that's also a gap absolutely i mean actually when i collected the award last night i did dedicate it to all the the female jazz composers that have inspired me and continue to inspire me in what I do because it is it's a it's a very difficult career path let's face it and a lot of obstacles have been thrown in my way and so I understand as a woman particularly in a male-dominated jazz world that um um you know it's it's not it's not easy. So, yeah, I just wanted to say how much those women inspire me every day. To carry on, give me the strength. Did you name check any of them? Are there any ones we should know?

There were way too many of them to do on the night. I would have been there all night. But people like, going back in time, like Lil Hardin, Mary Lou Williams, Joanne Bakkeen, Alice Coltrane in this country. And Nicky R's piano player, she won an award last night as well. And there's a piano player here, composer Nicky R. She inspires me. All kinds of, I mean, I could go on and on.

No, it's, you know, I'm always looking to be educated. So I'll be noting those down when I listen back later, you know, to add to my various lists to keep myself hopefully growing and learning about music how does it feel when you you're playing your own music um I don't know how it feels I just what I do so yeah I just love playing I love performing um I'm a little bit half asleep to be honest you're not a morning person I'm certainly not a morning person that's why jazz um called me to it the night owl vibes yes um but it's kind of worked me up a. The night owl vibes. Yes.

But it's kind of worked me up a bit. Good. Yeah, well, it's definitely got all of us going. Thank you so much. I mean, I love this programme and I love hosting it and it's such a special thing. But it's kind of, you know, seeing you on that piano and sitting here in the studio and hearing that music, it's just a very special thing.

And it's very wonderful to have you in the studio with us because we just haven't been connected to people in the last 18 months or so now a bit longer I know that we're you know we've opened up a lot more but how has that affected your ability to connect and create well that's really interesting coming back to live performance after such a long time of you know there's a real need for you know you can feel the energy you can feel the emotion in the room when you perform to people. And as a musician, that connection, you can't get it any other way. Playing at home, listening to records,

it's just not the same experience as when you perform for people and you get that energy back from them as a jazz musician. Because you're improvising, it allows you to take the music in a different direction depending on what energy... And keep going with one part or make it longer make it shorter yeah so it's fantastic to be back um performing for people because that is who I am that's what I do you know and I really noticed that when I

came back to it it's like I can't get that feeling anywhere else doing any other thing what are you saying with that particular piece of music, do you think? Because with no words but the music, how do you communicate it and what's being said there? Because Sweet Jasmine, you know, is after your daughter. Yeah, I mean, a lot of my tunes I write and then I didn't specifically write it for her, but that just, it's quite lively, it's quite bouncy,

that's the kind of girl she is. How old is she? She's five now. Yeah, lively and bouncy. That's a good description of that age. Lively and bouncy and quite cheeky. And she likes piano. She just started playing piano.

I started playing piano when I was four. So you never know. My son plays drums. So there's a lot of music in our house. Drums are a commitment as well, aren't they? Big commitment. I live with a drummer. Oh so do i live with two but the ones with the headphones that's what we had to make sure because very sensible you can still hear the tap tap tap tap in the background but um yeah no it's uh it's a real it's a real lifelong sentence that in many

ways uh even though even though there's a lot of joy to be derived from it um do you think we touched on this earlier about about some of your inspirations and particularly paying tribute to the women who have inspired you. Do you think it's got better for women in jazz though in the last few years? I think it has. I think, you know, there are more women coming through and also there's more of a network and also, you know, more visibility. And also people are having to, as a society, people are having to promote women and think about the fact that you know women have been

written out of history so that they're being included now which is a fantastic thing you know for me I mean like I say 20 years um in that time it wasn't the same for me coming up so I'm very glad that it is changing it still hasn't changed for me in the way that it probably could and maybe hopefully will what do you mean just in terms of the support network around me in particular um so you know still do a lot of the things myself that I really probably shouldn't be doing at this point things like you know management agency um record company I sort of my own record label you know um so it's sort of not quite yet professionalized as it well yeah I mean it is at one level i mean jazz is it's you know it's kind of a niche art form anyway in a sense um and it's not the sort of music i do

it's not a commercial uh so um yeah i mean i just carry on doing what i do because that's all i've known is there a plan and i'm thinking what's what's next for you yeah i've written i've got some new material that i'd love to record. You know, I've got arrangements for a 10-piece ensemble, a seven-piece ensemble, you know, four horns. So that is my next. I love the way you said that, you know, four horns. I totally know four horns.

I'm down with that. No idea what I'm talking about. Well, I'm imagining it, but I don't know. Okay, well, so like trumpet, saxophones. Those ones, those guys. Trombone, that kind of thing, you know. And I've got flute player, but I don't know. Okay, well, let me explain. So like trumpet, saxophones. Those ones, those guys. Trombone, that kind of thing, you know. And I've got flute player, clarinet, tuba. That's all in my head.

That's what I'm imagining, yeah, I'd like to do. And you, and you. Four horns. Yes. Well, we look forward to hearing more as and when it drops. Zoe Roman, all the best. Thank you so much. And congratulations.

Thank you so much. And thanks for playing. No, it's an absolute pleasure. I'm allowed to say my next gig's in January, if anyone wants to come and see me, at the Vortex in London. If you're not, you've already said it and I didn't hear it. Thank you very much.

So, Robin, all the best to you. Well, talking of women and success and public life, you've continued to send in some messages here about what's been going on in Downing Street and the allegations of Christmas parties and the resignation of what was the spokesperson for the Prime Minister yesterday, Allegra Stratton, a very tearful resignation. It was attested by Sarah Vine, the journalist at the start of the programme, that her

resignation, being the only person, and it happens to be a woman in this case, should be of note because why have no one else's resignations come forward? Why has no one else resigned? Why is it always the woman who has to be the fall guy, the fall woman? Susan said, did this party happen or not? Whoever contacted the journalist must have known it definitely happened and it wasn't a maybe. So this person surely must have known who was there. So why don't we know who was there?

Any questions? Julia says, Boris Johnson always reminds me of the late comedian Tommy Cooper. I played the part of an incompetent magician whose tricks went wrong. Boris Johnson has what might be called a Tommy Cooper complex. Look at me, folks. I'm a bumbling fool, but you love me for it. He's an entertainer, not a leader. Another one here.

Christabel says, I'd just like to say Allegra Stratton didn't look like she was putting on a nervous laugh. This is coming from a nurse working on a COVID ward. I don't feel any sympathy for her. She's part of the system. It's not that Allegra laughs, as Reign in Edinburgh, that we should be worried about. It's the fact that the government machine primes people in power in how to evade telling the system. It's not that Allegra laughed, says Rain in Edinburgh, that we should be worried about. It's the fact that the government machine primes people in power in how to evade telling the truth, a form of newspeak.

Oh, what a surprise not have they completely lost sight of their moral compass. And Lynn says sympathy for Ms Stratton should be tempered with the knowledge she's known about this party for a year and has said or done nothing about it. Well, sticking with politics, but the politics of Germany, the German Chancellor, or as she about it. Well, sticking with politics, but the politics of Germany,

the German Chancellor, or as she was, Angela Merkel, has officially left office after 16 years, ending her 31-year political career. And a new Chancellor, Olaf Scholz, has been confirmed. Voted in by the German Parliament yesterday, he now leads a three-party government with his own centre-left Social Democrats having a substantial majority. But Scholz has already faced opposition over one of his government's plans to reform abortion law in the country. The coalition wants to completely eliminate the law limiting the advertising of abortion and wants to make abortions free for all women.

They also plan to make the procedure part of basic medical training for all doctors. German conservatives, however, have come out against these plans. I can now speak to the chief political editor, Michaela Kufner, from Deutsche Welle, Germany's international TV channel. Good morning. Hello, good morning. Before you ask me something, I just want to add to what you just read out, those reactions to your Christmas party scandal there, that Angela Merkel's handover in the chancellery to Olaf Scholz due to the pandemic only took about 17 minutes.

And there was only about three dozen people there with all the staff afterwards lining up, keeping large distance and basically clapping for her. So there was no leaving party, no real leaving party for Angela Merkel after 16 years. But do go ahead. Let's talk about the proportional one. Thank you. I always like a link and I like the context in your country and what's been going on. I think it is worth thinking about that because we've

also heard of other parties of leaving dues for our former education secretary for instance, which was also apparently happening during lockdown last year. So a stark comparison. Let's just start with the abortion law in Germany. What is its current status? At the moment, there will be no proceedings, no legal proceedings against a woman who chooses

to go for an abortion within the first 12 months of pregnancy. And that only after she has gone to an advice centre or has received medical advice and counselling. And the aim of this counselling is still to reassure women that probably they don't want to have an abortion. But anyway, they can do it. And you said 12 months there, and I presume you mean 12 weeks. Sorry, 12 weeks. I'm so sorry. Yes.

12 weeks, definitely. But if then a woman is looking for someone who will conduct that procedure, she may run into difficulty. I mean, there are lists published, but there's another paragraph, that's paragraph 218 that I just cited there that lays that down. 219A cites that there must not be any advertising for abortion. And there was actually a very prominent case a couple of years back here that's been confirmed time and time again in court, that just listing abortion as part of the medical procedures on offer of a clinic, let's say on a web page, constitutes advertising.

And that is what the new incoming government now wants to completely strike down, eradicate. And they want to make abortion free of charge part of general medical care. And that change, which would be something people perhaps didn't even know that it is how you've described, that change, which would bring it in line with many other countries, many other Western countries, I should say, is being opposed on what grounds and by whom? Well, I mean, by the church, certainly,

who was against the kind of not seeing any kind of punishment and allowing for abortions in the first place. as part of the general medical treatment, not making it, taking away its exception status, would then make it a medical procedure like any other. And there are deep concerns that this could lead to that becoming inflationary, that more and more people would go for an abortion, but not for very... Well, I mean, you know, we have many countries where abortion is only allowed in certain circumstances when it endangers the life of the mother, the pregnant woman, or after rape. And there's concerns that this just makes it like any other procedure

or basically open the floodgates to women seeing abortion as just an ordinary medical treatment. Do we have any sense or understanding of how the people of Germany feel? Well, here, ask people on the street, people generally are more liberal on this. And it actually reminds me of the debate that saw Angela Merkel come around to allowing for same-sex marriage. It's in a sense a remnant of a conservative consensus and a lack of public outrage that led to this not really being discussed in detail and not being touched during the Merkel years. Now it's her former coalition partner, the Social Democrat, Chancellor Scholz, who's incoming and who will be leading this coalition of the Greens and the Free Democrats.

Free Democrats also being more liberal on this issue that will very likely take this forward relatively fast now. And in terms of him as a character, what is he like? And is he ready for this sort of fight? Do you think he'll see this through? I don't think there will be much of a fight. He will see it through. He has a majority in Parliament. This is one of the things that they can fairly easily fix. It will be a lot more tricky when it gets to issues like reforming the tax system. There's a tax code that disproportionately disadvantages women who often are the ones who earn less than the man. It basically allows for the highest income to be taxed a lot less. And then if the other partner within a marriage chooses to work, their income, the lesser income, will be taxed much more heavily.

And that usually is the woman, and that is a disincentive for women to go to work. And it also allows tax breaks for married people who don't have children. And the shift within this new government will be very much more on giving tax relief and giving more support to inside and outside of marriage to people who are caregivers for children well we will watch that perhaps we will talk to you again and and as you talked about with this particular issue and there's actually some ipsos mori data a poll that was done in 2020, which showed that in Germany, 49% said abortion should be permitted whenever a woman decides she wants one and 28% saying it should be permitted under certain circumstances.

So we'll follow that and the other developments with a new chancellor, Michaela Kufner, chief political editor. Thank you very much indeed. Finally, tonight, very much indeed. Finally tonight this is happening The revival of sex and the city is here the new series which is called And Just Like That referring to that line Carrie always used to refer to at the end of the programmes.

It airs tonight on Sky TV. It comes at the same time as a brand new TV show, Harlem, which focuses on four ambitious best friends navigating relationships and careers. Sound familiar? Well, how important are these female-led sitcoms and what kind of storylines do female audiences want

to see at which they're aimed? I'm joined now by Dr. Kadean Power, who teaches sociology and black studies at Birmingham City University's School of Social Sciences. Good morning. Good morning. Are you excited for this new series? Are you concerned? Of course, if you're a fan of something, you can protect it and you don't want it to go worse. worse i i i'm not concerned so much because i'm i'm used to the initial bombardment of opinions with uh tv shows and i don't pay too much attention to that i try to let a series settle in a bit i'm excited to see what this new chapter holds and getting to revisit these characters that i really uh enjoyed and see where they take things. So yes, of course.

I mentioned at the beginning of the programme, older women, a look at that, obviously, but also things have changed since the 90s. They definitely have. I think our language has changed, our politics, our world has changed. And the way we engage in politics. I think feminism is much more at the forefront. Issues around race, intersectionality, class are much more openly discussed. And we have a diverse number, amount of programming now with different types of women and different friend groups represented, you know, on television. So I think and just like that is going to have to bring something fresh in order to not seem dated, even as the women are older. Surely they're bringing, you know, new issues that we can discuss in the 20 years that have passed.

And, you know, how they fit into this new world that we're in. And there's the gap to do that, I suppose, with Samantha not being there. Who will fill her enormous, I was about to say her enormous bed, but her enormous shoes. That's a whole other conversation. Yes. I see they've added three, it looks like three new Femcast members

to the group who are all women of colour. So I'm very excited to see how they kind of fit in with the characters that we know lives and not just exist in service to the main, you know, white female characters. And also, I presume, you know, because you were a fan of the original programme, you know, you still there's still a need for the humour and there's a need for that lightness of touch. And, you know, there is also a concern when people come back and do things and try and, you know, update it, that it loses some of that as well. Oh, of course, I'm a fan of the humor and the irreverence and the lightness of touch. It is a comedy after all, and it needs to remain.

So I think one of the mistakes that people make when they're trying to, you know, tackle issues that are considered more serious, if you will, is that they get away from the core DNA of their product. And there's no need to do that because other shows have done this really successfully. I think the L word, Generation Q,

is a superb example of rebooting a series, adding new and younger and more diverse cast members and correcting some of the past mistakes of the older kind of early 2000s uh series and it hasn't lost any humor or its sense of um you know its its sexuality or any of that i think it's only made it better and i think there's an opportunity for and just like that to do that it's a great example and i also mentioned harlem uh which is now out on amazon prime what do you make of that show and of course people talking about how unprecedented it is to see four black female leads um well i would say this it's not unprecedented to see four black female leads because we did have the show Girlfriends in the 90s with, I forget her name.

It will come to me. However, I think what is unprecedented is that we have one of the core members being a non-femme queer, you know, Black woman. And usually we don't get to see them mixed in with these group of presumably other three heterosexual women. You got a diverse number of body types, sociopolitical-like circumstances, you know, professional lives represented. I think the cast gels really well together. They have great chemistry. So far, the sexuality has been very frank of the episodes that I've seen. And I like it. There is a lightness of touch, but there's also warmth and humor to it as well. And issues around blackness and womanhood that I recognize but are not thrown in my face in a performative way. Yes. And I think, you know, that that's also the sign of success when you can still just enjoy it and not notice what's happening.

Almost just just let it be with you um or notice and and it's more natural yes exactly not notice in a way that doesn't seem how it should be uh as well i think when you just hear that music though of sex in the city what does it give to you what does it evoke oh uh it makes me feel like dancing is what it does. Me too. Yeah, and it just gets you in a happy kind of joyful mood. You know, I feel like I'm going to be sitting down for a treat. So I'm very excited for that.

We will see. I hope you're not disappointed. I hope none of us are. And of course, lots of people also, you know, commenting on, they're excited to see women older, what they're doing with their life, how they're represented. Another element of what they're doing with their life how they're represented another element of that just seeing older women on screen still with the glamour probably but just they're all the same dr katie and pal lovely to talk to you thanks for your

company thanks for yours back tomorrow at 10. that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one hello Hello, I'm Felicity Finch. You may know me as Ruth in The Archers. I'm just asking for a few seconds of your time before you listen to the Woman's Hour podcast. This Christmas, thousands of people across the UK will be without a safe place to call home, but you can help change that. St Martin's helps ensure that people experiencing homelessness can find and keep a safe place to live. Your gift could support someone to take the next step towards a more secure future. Please support the BBC Radio 4 Christmas Appeal with St Martin in the Fields by donating online on the Radio 4 Christmas Appeal website. Whether you give every year or if this is your first, thank you.

Now enjoy your podcast. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.