Woman's Hour - Jeanette Winterson, Colourism, Paralympian Stef Reid

Episode Date: July 29, 2021

Jeanette Winterson talks about her new essay collection which covers 200 years of women and science, from Mary Shelley to AI. She asks what love, caring, sex and attachment will look like when humans form connections with non-human helpers teachers, sex-workers, and companions? And what will happen to our deep-rooted assumptions about gender? Will our own bodies be enhances by biological and neural implants making us trans human and keeping us fitter, younger and connected? When Ena Miller gave birth to her baby called Bonnie just over a year ago - she expected to receive the standard comments..."Oh she's so beautiful, aww look at her little nose, she's so cute, aww what a big baby..." She did get those, but she also got negative remarks from friends and strangers about the colour of her baby's skin. Ena realised she was not alone and went to meet two other mothers Fariba and Wendy to talk about their experiences and ask for their advice.Colourism, which is also called shadism or skin tone bias, is prejudice in which people of colour with light skin are privileged over those with darker skin. Colourism can occur both within and between racialised groups. Natalie Morris, journalist and the author of Mixed/Other: Explorations of Multiraciality in Modern Britain and Dr Aisha Phoenix, Social Justice lecturer at King's College London discuss the history of colourism and how it impacts people of colour.Paralympian Stef Reid is heading to Tokyo next month to represent team GB at the 2020 games in the long jump. She's a five-time world record holder and a triple Paralympic medallist. A boating accident at the age of 15 resulted in Stef having the lower part of her right leg amputated. Her parents and teachers encouraged her to keep playing sport. After new research showing one in three teenage girls drop out of sport, Stef is now on a mission to keep girls involved.Presented by Jessica Creighton Producer: Louise Corley

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Lovely to have your company once again. We've got sporting fever on Woman's Hour this morning. We'll be looking at how TGB sportswomen are getting on at the Tokyo Olympics, where just a couple of hours ago, actually, Mallory Franklin added yet another medal to Britain's tally in the canoe slalom. We'll also be speaking to Steph Reid about her goals going into the Paralympics, which get underway next

month, and her campaign to keep young girls involved in sport. Also this morning, a powerful discussion between three women who have received negative comments from strangers about the skin colour of their babies, plus the detrimental impact colourism can have on people of colour. We'll be talking about the consequences of skin tone bias and light skin privilege, as it's known, with a woman who has conducted the first major study on colourism in the UK and a journalist who has written a book that touches on the subject. Do get in touch with us though if you've had experience of colourism or skin tone bias. Tell us what happened or perhaps you are for having a lighter skin tone and used skin lightening products for example. Text us on

84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can tweet us too, at BBC Woman's Hour, or email us through our website. Also this morning, we have a live guest in the studio, which these days is a bit of a treat. Writer and broadcaster Jeanette Winterson will be with me to discuss her latest book. Now, it's a feminist look at artificial intelligence and what it means for us as humans in the future. It's called 12 Bytes, How We Got Here, Where We Might Go Next, and it's published today. Really looking forward to that chat. But first this morning, as I said, we are celebrating the success of our female Olympians in Tokyo. Before the Games kicked off, we said on Women's Hour that women would be bringing home

the medals and we've been proven right, haven't we? Yesterday, Charlotte Dujardin confirmed her place in the history books with her bronze in the dressage, making her the most decorated British female Olympian ever. And the medals keep on coming. Mallory Franklin just won silver in the Canoe Slalom earlier this morning and she was beaten to the gold in the final run by Australia's Jessica Fox. But it still makes Mallory only the second British woman ever to win an Olympic medal in canoe slalom. Now, women have already won medals in gymnastics, taekwondo and cycling, amongst other sports for Team GB. And there are hopefully

many more to come before these games are over. Let's get more on this. Joining me from Tokyo, Olympic sports reporter Sonia McLaughlin covering her seventh, seventh Summer Olympic Games. Good morning to you, Sonia. Let's start with Charlotte Dujardin creating history with her bronze medal in the dressage. Yeah. Hello. No British woman now has won more medals at an Olympics than Charlotte Dujardin. And on Tuesday, she drew level on five with rower Kath Granger and Kitty Godfrey was playing tennis in the 1920s. Drawing level on five, that was with a bronze in the team dressage.

But yesterday, she got a second bronze in the individual competition to chalk up six Olympic medals and rewrite those history books. And actually, she did it on a brand new young horse called Gio. That's after the retirement of her super steed, Vallejo. So it's an indication of just what a talented rider she really is. And it sets her now in terms of Olympic medals out there on her own

as Britain's most successful Olympian female ever. My goodness, what a performance from her. One of my standout performance, Sonia, has to be Georgia Taylor-Brown, who won silver in the triathlon, even though she had to ride through the cycling section of that event with a flat tyre. Yeah, you know what? The chef de mission, that's the man in charge here, Mark England, you know, he declared ahead of these games that this was going to be the year of the female

Olympian. And that's that when the squad was named for Tokyo, for the first time in the history of these games, there were more women here for Great Britain than there are men. And these women are really making their mark. They're proving very resilient. And why not? The first medal for Britain in these women's games overall was won by a woman in the judo. That's Chelsea Giles. The first medal came for Britain in the women's team gymnastics for 93 years when they grabbed a bronze. And you mentioned Georgia Taylor Brown. She took that wonderful silver in the triathlon, despite suffering a puncture, as you say, in the cycling

element, which might have caused, you know, panic amongst you and I. But for her, she managed to keep her cool, work her way back in. And she took a fantastic silver in the triathlon. You know, when the games were first held in Tokyo 56 years ago, British women won just four medals. Now we've got seven here already. And there's another one as well, because Lottie Fry and Charlotte Dujardin got a bronze alongside Carl Hester. It's one sport where it's mixed in that instance, men and women together. So women doing really well uh they've come a long way since 1964 girl power uh now i know we're talking about medalists but we also have to congratulate helen glover she wasn't a medal winner this time around

but to get back to the top level of rowing after coming out of retirement is so impressive Sonia yeah double Olympic gold medalist Helen Glover and she she retired that was it uh she did a bit of a Steve Reggrave you see me go anywhere near a boat again you have permission to shoot me uh that was his famous quote uh she but she decided she went off she got she got married to to Steve Backshall everybody knows the story he he's the famous naturist, does lots of TV shows. They had three lovely children. And then she went, you know what?

I want to do this all over again. And we know a lot of pressures there are on women anyway, as mothers, holding the family together sometimes. And alongside that, she decided she wanted to compete at the Olympics again with all of the training, the dedication, the early mornings that that takes, juggling home and family life.

And she came here. They had a difficult time early on in the heat. They got through to the final, eventually through the repassage and actually to come agonizingly close to a medal when you had taken such a long time away from the sport. It's a real feel good story and proof that, you know, if you put your mind to it, women can do anything. Indeed. Congratulations to Helen Glover. And just briefly, Sonia, one of the faces of the Games for Team GB, Dina Asher-Smith. She gets underway tomorrow, doesn't she, in the early hours of tomorrow morning UK time? Yeah, she does. She was the cover star on British Vogue in the build-up to these games.

In many ways, she is the face of the British team here. We've been waiting for... There's always that saying that the games don't really get underway until the athletics starts. And that's tomorrow. And Dina Asher-Smith will be going in the heats of the women's 200 metres. She's the reigning world champion. And it says a lot about women's sport in general and particularly women's track and field.

That here, the women's sprints are almost considered to be the blue-ribboned events rather than the men, such as the strength and depth in women's sprinting right now. And Dina Asher-Smith has got a really good chance of becoming Olympic champion here. She's a wonderful role model for the sport. She's prepared to go out and talk about diversity, about the racism that is an issue in Britain right now. And she has some strong thoughts about all of that. And she's a real example to sport and to everybody who watches her. She really is. Best of luck to Dina Asher-Smith. Thank you very much, Sonia McLaughlin, for joining us on the programme.

Later in the show, actually, I'll be talking to Great Britain's Paralympic long jumper, Steph Reid, as well. Now, I promised you a live guest in the studio, didn't I? Well, Jeanette Winterson's latest book is all about artificial intelligence or AI. She says women were at the start of this scientific revolution more than 250 years ago, and she wants them to be taking a central role as this technology becomes a reality. Jeanette's book is called 12 Bytes, How We Got Here, Where We Might Go Next. It's published today and delighted to have Jeanette in the studio with me. Welcome. Good morning. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. 3D person again. Not a two-dimensional on the screen. In fact, we can make eye contact. Isn't that a fabulous thing? Now, the book is essentially 12 essays, and it's your, I suppose, feminist take on the history

of AI and the future it has for us as humans. But I think what we need to establish first is what exactly your take is on AI. What is it? Because different people have different interpretations of this. Sure, they do. Obviously, we call it artificial intelligence, which was a term coined in the 1950s by John McCarthy, a computing technology scientist. But I think of it more as alternative intelligence. I mean, at present, all AI is a tool. That's what it is. Humans are good at making and using tools. Mainly, we meet AI through algorithms, through chatbots, through Siri, Alexa, when we go and do our shopping, all of that. For me, one of the interesting questions is,

what happens when AI is no longer a tool, when it develops into a system that can think for itself, make its own decisions, start to be a participator. And of course, this isn't so much sci-fi as likely reality. It's a question of time. It's not an if, it's a when. And I was looking at how this could happen. And that sent me right back to the early years of the 1800s when we had two visionaries, Mary Shelley, who wrote Frankenstein and saw a time when we would create an artificial life form. In her case, it was out of the discarded parts of the graveyard, but she used electricity, which was really a nascent force there. Nobody understood electricity.

And without electricity, there's no such thing as computational technology. And she saw a time when we would create a life form and we're doing it now, not out of body parts, but using electricity again, and the zeros and ones of code. So it was a real vision. And alongside her comes Ada Lovelace, daughter of Britain's most famous poet at the time, Lord Byron. And she coined the term programming because she was programming a computer that's never been built by Charles Babbage, the computer pioneer. So you've got these two women who are largely forgotten for a long time. And now we begin to see that they belong at the beginning of the future, the beginning of the industrial revolution that becomes the computing revolution that we then place after the Second World War at Bletchley Park,

Alan Turing building the Colossus and the bomb sets that were able to decipher the Nazi code with the Enigma machines. So we've got this stretch of time. And what I wanted people to see was, OK, how does this 250 years join up? Where do women fit in it? Because women were not an afterthought. Not only were they there at the beginning, but until about 1984, women in computing were everywhere.

And then they start to disappear. So it's not that women have the wrong brains or they're not interested in this stuff. It's that actually they are phased out. And that was a shocking story to me. And I wanted to tell that story because if AI is going to be anything, it has to be about all of us, doesn't it? So whatever it is, black, white, male, female, whatever your religion, because whatever else AI is, it's not a binary. You know, it doesn't have a gender, it doesn't have a colour, it doesn't have a religion. So what we should do is make sure we don't bring our old boring binary mindsets into this amazing new technology that we're creating.

Okay, we will definitely come on to the significant role that women have had to play in this industry, in this area of technology. But first, from what you're saying, it sounds as though artificial intelligence is inevitable. It's going to happen. It's not if, it's when. So what will it look like? I suppose people would have seen 2001, Space Odyssey, that film. They would have seen the movie with Will Smith, iRobots, more recently. There's been TV series, Humans, for example, years and years as well. But what does it look like to you? What will us embracing AI look like? Well, it's going to be embodied and non-embodied. So embodied means robots. So you might have your friendly little iPal running around helping, looking after your kids. Some people will have seen Pepper the Robot

at the Eurostar station in the days when we could travel. The idea of service bots, care bots, physically can look like us. You know, if you go onto a website called Boston Dynamics, you can see all kinds of robot shapes that are being developed now. So there'll be that, and we will make relationships with those creatures. But there's also non-embodied. You're already used to shouting at Siri and Alexa. And we can have relationships, not only with biological humans. That's obvious, A, because more than half the world prays to a sky god every day. And whatever gods are, they're not biological. And we consider that to be an important real relationship. Second, we all fell in love with our teddy bear, didn't we?

So we are used to creating relationships with non-biological life forms as we see them. So I imagine that as AI develops, it will be both. So there'll be the service and care bots, the helper bots. Look, there's already sex bots. We'll come on to that a bit later. Yeah, and then there will be non-embodied, which is where you will have chatbots. You know, we already go on there and we can't tell often if in a call centre, if it's a human or if it's a machine. You know, there is this thing called the Turing test, which is the point where we will no longer be able to distinguish between a human and an artificial intelligence system if nobody tells us which is which.

And we're moving quite rapidly towards that. That's what Google have in mind when they talk about their Google personal assistant. It'll be like a mini me. It'll know everything about you, sort it all out for you. And we will not be able to help developing relationships, meaningful ones, with such a thing. So is this where the term transhuman comes in? Because Elon Musk has also spoken a lot about this. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I'm glad you brought that up because it's Elon Musk who says, if we don't blend with our technology, it's going to outsmart us. You know, he's working on neural implants at the moment, which initially will help paralysed people communicate with their

computer interface by thoughts alone. The idea is that we will all be able to communicate by thoughts alone. You know, it's quite scary and sci-fi, but it's likely. If we don't blend with the technology, the fear is among some really smart people that we will be the left behind, that there'll be a new binary, an us and them. You know, computing is already much faster, say, at data crunching, number crunching, than any human can ever be. So you have to imagine that power with something like a mind behind it. We don't want to be left out of the game there, do we? I mean, already the Pentagon in America are developing exoskeletons, which really is bionic man stuff or Iron Man, you know, in the Marvel movies,

where you put on a prosthetic arm, which makes that arm 50 times stronger than your own for when you're doing dangerous work, factory work. So we're already beginning to think, okay, how can we use this to become part of the biological substrate? But as biology, we will also have to evolve into something that's not biology. So what's your take on neural implants and the ability for humans to be able to download the contents of their brain onto another platform. I love that idea. Look, we're a long way off that yet. I mean, we can barely manage to scan a slice of a mouse's brain. But, you know, it's only just over 50 years since the first heart transplant. You know, people looked into the sky for thousands of years and thought,

I wish I could fly. I wish I could communicate instantly with someone across time. All of those things we can do. We don't do it with a crystal ball anymore, and we don't need to strap on wings. So what I say to sceptics is, look how much sci-fi has become everyday reality. So if we get the computational technology to scan the contents of our brains, then I appear in your computer.

I might be like the genie in the bottle. You then control me. But then I can be downloaded, the contents of myself can be downloaded onto a substrate that isn't made of meat. I mean, in our evolutionary inheritance, we are made of meat, we're biological. That doesn't need to continue. And actually, again, half the world thinks it doesn't have to continue because people believe that when they die, the essence of themselves goes somewhere else. You know the story. This world is not my home. I'm not just my body. There's more to it. I think everyone can recognize that. And this is a moment when religion and science are beginning to say the same things. Actually, no, you're not just your body. And this is what excites me.

You know, somebody came from a religious background to see the same thinking coming together and the idea that we might transcend these physical limits, not only to live longer in the first instance, but then to achieve immortality, the dream that we've always had since time began. It's now within visible sight, not in my lifetime, I don't think, but hey, maybe in yours. This is so, so fascinating. I suppose my concern, and perhaps a lot of people's, is that this means it's the end of the human race as we know it, doesn't it? I mean, Stephen Hawking himself famously predicted that AI could end the human race. So is that what's going to happen? We need to embrace this. Yeah, because it's either, you know what humans are like,

it's always dystopia or utopia. It's another binary. We just love our binaries. But if you think that homo sapiens in our present form has been around for about 300,000 years, it's so not long. Industrial Revolution, 250 years. Computing, 60 years. You see how we're accelerating.

So it may be that as we look back, this is part of our evolutionary history, just this biological self. And as we become the new mixed race, the blended self, and then possibly the post-human self, that will become part of the evolutionary journey. I feel like maybe I need to embrace this more. And that's why I wanted everyone to be in the conversation, not to be outside of it. Look, we don't want to be run by big tech who have masses of power and no responsibility. They can do as they like. They're not elected.

That's why we need information, because information is power. The more people know about this stuff, what's actually going on, then the more we can start to influence how it will go. Not dystopia, where it's just power and privilege for the few, but a utopia that could really change things for the better for all of us. One of the issues that you highlighted in the book, of course, is the area of sexism. And despite the fact that women made a significant contribution to this area, they've been prevented from joining in the future

and staying in this industry. Tell us more about that. Yeah, they were driven out until 1984, which is when Apple launches its first home computer. Women made up about 37%, 38% of computing science graduates. They were really in there. And we know that after the war, after Bletchley Park, women were programming these massive machines

the size of this studio. And they were simply learning how to do it. At that point, it was called clerical work only because women were doing it. They then trained the guys and it was called computing science. You know, this is absolutely documented history. In the 1980s, it was an image change. This was something boys did. This was something geeky guys did. This wasn't something women did. And, you know, we say it on Women's Hour all the time, you can only be what you can see. And as women begin to disappear, they can't be those things.

You know, at the turn of the 20th century, only 5% of medical doctors in the UK were women. Now more than half are. Nothing has changed with women's brains. It's society. And we've got the same with computing science. And girls think, oh, it's not for me. It's for these boys who play computer games all day. That's been a real push, making women feel left out. But there are now

really great incentives to bring women back in, because if we're not building the platforms, that's electrical engineering. We're not doing the programming. That's coding. We're out of the biggest conversation of the time, except for climate change. And AI is going to play a big part in regulating climate change. So women need to be back in the game here. So mothers, please encourage your girls to code. Another big section of your book is on sex bots. Oh, yeah. Don't encourage your girls down that route. Well, I mean, you know, I'm open minded at this point. How do you think that will change heterosexual men's relationship with women, sex bots?

What's weird about sex bots, it's not just like a little eye helper or any old robot. It's a 1950s stereotype version of what a female should be. Always compliant, always willing, never puts any weight on, never argues with you, never complains, is always there for you. Plus with 21st century porn star raunch. You bring this together and what you've got isn't about sex or relationship, it's the same old stuff about gender, money and power. Men buy these things.

Some men really believe they're having a relationship with them. But of course, how does that screw up your relationships with women in the real world? And if you're a man, say your woman's a boss, you know, are you thinking about your sex boss at home when you're dealing with it? What if you're dealing with a woman in the service industry? Of course, it's going to screw up relationships. Not because I've got any particular issue with bots that we make for sex, but I've got a big issue with the old power structures that are underpinning this. And I suppose the question is, then, do you see this as a viable option for men going forward? Is this what the archetypal woman is going to look like, a robot? Yeah, well, it is an archetypal, you know, it's exactly, it is the porn star look, which is problematic. A lot of men do think it's viable. And of course, in India and China,

because of social engineering, you've got huge shortfalls in available females. In China, it's between 30 and 40 million. So there's a lot of men who will never get women. And the idea of bot companions is really being touted, not just at the selling sex level, but at the companionship level. And if you go on some of the websites, it says things like, you know, when this bot can make a sandwich, it's good by women. And things like serves feminism right. So, yes, there is a whole swathe of guys out there who would love to have a compliant 1950s bot style woman at home and just have sex with her when they want.

You can change her head. And actually, do you know what? So there are options. There are options. A lot of bots come with two heads because the heads get smashed in. Wow. Jeanette Winston, this has been absolutely fascinating.

As varied as it's been, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming in. Just a reminder to everyone, the book is called 12 Bites. How we got here, where we might go next. And it's published today. Jeanette, thank you for joining us in the Women's Hour studio today. Thank you so much. Now, at the end of August, we'll be running our annual Listener Week, where every item, discussion and interview is suggested by you. We've had loads of fantastic suggestions so far. But if you haven't sent one in, there's still loads of time.

You can do that. You can email us via the website, put a comment on Instagram or send us a message on Twitter. If you don't mind one of the team giving you a call, leave us your phone number as well. To text us, just text 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. Check with your network provider as well for exact costs.

On social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through the website as always. Now, when our reporter, Enna Miller, gave birth to her baby called Bonnie just over a year ago, she expected to receive the standard comments. Oh, she's so beautiful. Look at her little nose. Or she's so cute.

But instead, she got negative remarks from friends and strangers about the colour of her daughter's skin. Enna soon realised she was not alone. Fariba and Wendy are both mothers who've had the same issue. How dare you comment about my child's skin colour? Sometimes I look at people and I stare them right in the eye and I'm saying what I want to say in my head, but it's not coming out of my mouth.

It's, oh yes, yes, she's very white, isn't she? Enna met Fareeiba and Wendy and their daughters to ask for their advice and experiences. But before all of that, Enna's cousin needed to have a tricky conversation. When baby Bonnie

was a few weeks old, Enna and her cousin Danielle were walking along the road with Bonnie and, well, I'll let you tell, I'll let them tell you what happened next.

Hi! You've made it. You look well. Oh no. It smells like lavender. Oh, that's because I tidied up for you. Oh, did you? Well, you know my tidying. Yeah, just shove it in. Shove it in. Shove it, shove it, shove it.

My name is Danielle Fiamagna. I am 22. What was the third thing? What's your relation to me how do you know me i literally can't remember not knowing you you're my cousin big sister part of our family can you tell me what you remember of that incident i just remember us going for a lovely walk and i can't remember if if Bonnie was in the buggy or you were holding her. I just remember a man shouting loudly but the language he was using was just extremely inappropriate in relation to the colour of Bonnie's skin. I felt extremely uncomfortable. I remember him saying something about, why are you with a white man? Why is your baby so white? That's what happens when you get with

a white man. I remember the walk home and we never spoke about it and we've never spoken about it until today. To me, that's the strangest thing. It happened, this black man coming out of nowhere and for us not to talk about it, it must have had quite a big impact because we're so open with each other. I knew you were upset. We both didn't want to really go there and I feel like just racially both as black women that opens a whole massive thing. I remember looking at people watching us, feeling really embarrassed in front of them. And then I think the worst thing I felt was I didn't stick up for us.

And I remember trying to put Bonnie back into the buggy as quickly as possible as he's, circling us shouting at us in those situations like there's no handbook there is no way to know when you're going to run into those sorts of things and how you're going to react in hindsight of course you look back and you've got all the words and you're like I would have said this this this and this we had to escape that situation that wasn't the first comment I'd got how many times has that happened I can sort of list them really there was the time when she'd been in ICU for a day and a night had her back for the first couple of hours and the person that comes in and

asks you what you want for breakfast came in and was like oh wow is that your baby it's like yeah she's really white and her hair is so straight is she really yours and I was like yeah there's been times when I've sent photos one friend came back and went oh she's so white a couple of weeks later I sent another picture and it was a case of oh is she still white and then you would see friends partners just stare at Bonnie stare stare and then eventually they'd go they'd touch their face with their finger like this and go she's really pale isn't she she's really white and again another random in a shop and then he was like is that yours and I just thought god I just came in here to get plantain I know does your partner get that with Bonnie I know my partner never got any comments and I think what surprises me the most is that the comments were coming from people of color from my side so I don't know

whether white people thought it and they never said anything which I was delighted by maybe because I was five days on my own in a hospital room it was COVID times no visitors so I went into the dark deep hole of googling this topic and what happens when you're black and your child is a completely different colour to you, what is that future like? I projected my future with Bonnie, it was really bleak. Oh I can hear you! I could just hear this voice bellowing. You're dressed up like a snowman. We've got to do this interview outside.

I thought, what should I wear? I need to wear everything. Absolutely lovely to meet you. You too. My name is Mrs Wendy Lopez. Tell me what happened on August 26th, 1993. Gave birth to my daughter, Olivia. I remember the doctor, she didn't actually have an overall on,

but I remember her wearing a brown dress. She took this baby out and she was holding her. And I'm looking, I'm thinking, why is this baby so pale? And do you know what? When she handed the baby to me, she said, oh, you have a girl, you have a daughter. And I'm, oh, thank you. But but Olivia had brown hair but she had blonde curls just like she's been to the hairdresser someone's put rollers in her hair and just taken the rollers out and I remember just sitting there just looking down her thinking you sure this baby's mine remember the doctor came in

and he was like looking at her and he said um oh have you got white in your family and I said um Olivia's father's white and he goes no no no no you've got white in your family and that's the reason why Olivia's so pale I'm thinking why are you telling me all this I kept thinking to myself do you go around to all the mums and tell them about their their child's colour and their background and I bet you didn't but sometimes I look at people and I stare them right in the eye and I'm saying what I want to say in my head but it's not coming out of my mouth it's oh yes yeah she's very white isn't she she had a Covid jab a few months back we've gone in Olivia's special needs as well so we had a few problems settling her she sat down I have to ask her all these

questions and so she says to me are you Olivia's carer I says to me, are you Olivia's carer? I said, no. She said, are you Olivia's mum? And I said, yeah. Did you give birth to Olivia? And I said, did you really? I looked at her and I thought, well, come on, this is like 2021 and you still have to ask me silliness like that. Reactions from family. Mum said, how come the baby's so white?

So I said, look, you know her dad's white and that's the reason why. She went, hmm, hmm. What do you think she meant? Your face is sort of scrunching up. I guess she didn't approve. You actually told me at one stage that your mum used to call her the white girl. Yeah and it's not even just my mum I have a sister that lives in Guyana and she was like where's the white girl where's the white girl? People just say she's not getting any darker. I don't know. One friend she rang the hospital and she just said is the baby black or

white how about strangers I was in Deptford walking along doing my shopping on a Saturday as you usually do so I'm walking along and I've clocked the pub on the corner there was three black guys standing outside two went inside but there was one black guy still standing outside came towards me as I'm walking past he goes is that your picnic and I said um no you basically disowned your child in front of him okay yes I did because I've seen and heard so many different stories of black women who've been going out with white guys how they're being attacked and if i was walking along with two black children holding their hands would you approach me so should we go and get olivia i'll see what she's up i might take a bit of time

trying to coat her outside see you in a mile now sit on this one look look come sit on this chair yeah should we have a look at these pictures who's that oh yes oh you recognize your mummy but who's this baby who is it sleeping baby oh look at this one let's see if you recognize this one are we just too sensitive well that is what everyone who isn't in this situation is going to say oh you're too sensitive on. We didn't mean anything by it. You've got a chip on your shoulder. And I'm asking you, are we too sensitive? Should we just chill out?

I've got to be Olivia's mouthpiece. If Olivia wasn't special needs, she'd be running around telling people, just leave me alone. My father's white, mother's black. End of story. So why is that so important that you have to do that? Because what you're digging at is what Olivia is.

Before Olivia, I wouldn't say boo to a goose. But because I have to be there talking about this, this, everything about her, I've got a bit braver. Just turn right and then go all the way back. Turn right to the back garden? OK, cool, I will. Well, I thought I'd bring Bonnie just to meet you because we've been talking about our daughter so much. I've been hearing all about you, Bonnie.

Aren't you a cutie? So my name is Fariba. I am 41 years old. I have a partner who's Nigerian. He's Nigerian descent, but also grew up in Nigeria. My background is I'm half Iranian and half English, but I grew up in Nigeria. My background is I'm half Iranian and half English, but I grew up in Canada. And we have three beautiful daughters

who are age 10, 8 and 6. Last weekend, we went out to meet some friends and one of the first things my friend said was, she looks pale. See, it's still happening. We are in the 21st century. You'd think people have moved on a bit. I found you because you write a blog about bringing up mixed-race children.

Did something happen that one day you went to the computer and thought, I need to write about it? I think one of them, I was actually in an airport in Nigeria. I was holding my oldest daughter. A Nigerian woman came up to me and my husband wasn't around and she said something like, your husband must be really dark. I think I was so naive. I thought it was just a matter of fact comment. Well, yeah, he's quite dark skinned. It just kind of dawned on me

afterwards that that was actually supposed to be insulting and it was the way she said it. About a year ago, my middle daughter, who was about six or seven at the time, I was actually picking her up. I walked in, gave my daughter a hug. One of the children, who was about six or seven at the time. I was actually picking her up, I walked in, gave my daughter a hug. One of the children who was about nine or ten at the time said, is that your daughter? And I said yes. And she said, do you still love her even though she's that colour? And my daughter had to hear that and that's what made me so sad.

She was six and she had to hear someone questioning about whether her mother loved her based on her skin colour. Even now that you tell me you look visibly upset by it? Yeah, yeah that was probably the incident that made me really terrified I guess of what kinds of comments or things that they might come up against. Having three children as well, who are all of different kind of skin tones, I can see that there is a different experience that they will have just based on how they're perceived in society as well. I follow a blogger in the States whose blog is actually called AreThoseYourKids.com

and another one whose blog is called I'mNotTheNanny.com. Again, you know. That's why I worried. I worried that they'd say I was the nanny I was like oh no hi I'm Asha I'm 10 years old and this is my mum we've been reading books about curly hair and books with like black princesses and all sorts since you were little which one would you say is one of your favorites it's about this young mixed race girl and she wants to become a ballet dancer. What's happening is that we're educating our own children, but they're still going to walk out into the world and get these comments.

It's not just for us to be buying diversity in toys and books and media. It's for everyone. I'm at the beginning stage. I'm already exhausted by it you're 10 years down the line with three daughters where are you at? I think the fact that I'm writing about it I feel like that has had an impact on me feeling like I'm not just taking it

I'm doing something about it you are constantly educating it is exhausting but it's also it's kind of what you have to do. What I found, obviously, apart from last week, when I got the she's so pale comment, and that was from a white friend, all the comments so far, I think, coming from people of colour, which I think is why I'm here today speaking to you,

because I don't know why I just found that more shocking. There's still widely held perceptions about what black should be and look like and who can lay claim to that identity. I think, I hope that people like Kamala Harris have helped to question that a little bit. If people do identify as being mixed or being multiracial, there's going to be multiple narratives about what black is and what that means. Your mum was telling me you sometimes described your family in terms of ice cream flavours. I'm caramel, my mum is vanilla, Ella is fudge,

my youngest sister is butterscotch and then my dad is chocolate. And what made you think of using ice cream flavours? I think it makes it a bit better because when you say, oh, you're lighter than me or you're super dark and it just seems like you're separating each other. Making it into delicious things shows that people love those things, all of them. Wow. What a powerful and important discussion that was. Thank you to Enna Miller for that report.

There's also an article on the BBC website about the experiences there of Enna, Fariba and Wendy, which you might like to search for. Now, of course, you just heard there about the experience of receiving negative comments about the colour of your child's skin tone. Similarly, colourism can have just as negative an impact on people of colour. The number of British people who identify as having a mixed background almost doubled between the census of 2001 and 2011 to about 1.2 million, which is just over 2% of the overall population. Experts say, though, that this figure is likely to be an underestimate. To discuss this further, joining us now are Natalie Morris, a journalist and the author of Mixed Other, Explorations of Multiraciality in modern Britain, and Dr Aisha Phoenix, who is a social justice lecturer at Queen's College London and co-conducted the first major sociological study on colourism in the UK.

Good morning to you both. Good morning. Morning. Hi. Aisha, I think what's important first is that we just establish just what colourism is. How would you describe it? So colourism is skin shade prejudice in which light skin is privileged over darker skin shades. So it's related to racism, but distinct from it in the sense that it can occur both within and between racialised groups. So what do I mean by that? So for example,

white people can be both racist and colourist towards people of colour, but a person of colour, while they can't be racist towards people racialised in the same way, they can subject them to colourism. Okay. And it has a history, doesn't it? This isn't a new phenomenon. Not at all, no. Colourism is a global issue and it has different histories in different parts of the world. So among the descendants of transatlantic slaves, it dates back to the preferential treatment given to slaves with light skin, who were the mixed race children of slave masters and enslaved women. And those mixed race children were then allowed to work in the home. They were given privileged treatment.

Sometimes they received basic educations and training. And then the hierarchies that were established then among Shinshade with the darkest at the bottom and those with light skin at the top persisted after the abolition of slavery. But beyond that, in countries with histories of European colonialism, colourism is partly the result of privileging of light skin that resulted from associating light skin and whiteness with power and privilege and dark skin with primitiveness. And so that contributed as well. And often it led to people having privileged positions in society and that contributed to hierarchies as well. And also in hotter countries, there is the idea that those who work outside in the fields, they are low status and they have darker skin.

So light skin, again, was privileged in those contexts as well. Very deep rooted. And I should just point out to people, I think I made up a university there. You are social justice lecturer, Aisha, at King's College, London. Natalie, I'd like to come to you now. Good morning to you. Tell us about how you describe yourself compared to how others describe you. Well, yeah, I mean, that's that's one of the key things about about being mixed and having mixed heritage is that there is a difference there between how you see yourself and how other people are perceiving you um and very often um in my experience and the experience of the people that i interview in my book is that there's this kind of disempowering thing that happens where you're constantly told what you are and what you are not by other people

um who are basically deciding where you fit and how you fit into the pre-existing categories that exist in their head based on you know your your outward um aesthetic appearance of which your skin tone is is a big part of that um and so so for myself um I have black heritage and white heritage um my dad um is black uh Caribbean and my mum is white British um and I identify as a black mixed woman. So, yeah, I think there's a really interesting kind of juxtaposition there between what you feel yourself to be and complicated when you're mixed and when you do have white heritage and all of the privileges, as Aisha kind of alluded to there, that come with having that proximity to whiteness that people like myself do have. And this idea, this question came up in the last piece about, are we just too sensitive? You know, it can seem quite a subtle mistake when using the wrong language, but actually it has quite big ramifications, doesn't it, Natalie? Like talk about the emotions and the feelings it stirs up when someone calls you the wrong thing.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's very easy to brush it aside and say that language is is superficial and not important and that people are being too sensitive but there are hugely deep ramifications and you know intergenerational kind of implications of using this language and how people respond to you based on how you're identifying and how we categorize ourselves and others and I think it's really important and something that I I um talk about a lot in the book is this need to allow the the space for mixed people and people with mixed heritage to self-identify and to be able to say for themselves where they feel they belong because it's not as simple as okay your skin tone is is this shade therefore this is what you are it's a much broader um more uh and needs much more context than that because you know there are so many other factors

in terms of where you grew up your your age your location um all of these different things the relationship you have with the different elements of your family the relationship you have with the different elements of your heritage so to reduce it down to okay your skin falls on this level of brownness therefore you're this level of black or this amount of white is entirely reductive and really strips away the kind of lived experiences that people with mixed heritage actually have. Can I just jump in there because I think those are brilliant points that Natalie's making and in the research I conducted with Dr Nadia Craddock we also found that participants had very different experiences mixed race participants in different parts of the UK in different parts

of England based study and therefore if you were living in a rural area and you were mixed race the privilege that we might associate with having light skin wouldn't necessarily apply to those people if they weren't other black people around. They were subjected to very vile racism, whereas when they came to London, they were expected to appreciate the privileges that they hadn't really experienced in those areas. So I think it's really important, as Natalie's saying, to think about context and not to be reductive. That's such a great point, Aisha, as well. Sorry to jump in again, but I just wanted to add there that I think that's that idea of context when we talk about privileges is so important I think

when we're talking about privilege and particularly in terms of skin tone there's such a tendency to kind of flatten the conversation and reduce it to either you have privilege or you don't have privilege when really there is so much more nuance needed within that and because it is so contextual and so um so dependent on how other people are perceiving you and like you say that's very much dependent on the context of any given day so for example I can walk into a room and I don't control how other people are going to racialize me when I walk into that space um and and like Aisha, there are some spaces where I am just seen as non-white, as other, as a black person,

and that is enough to change how I experience that space. Whereas in other spaces, there is very much a privilege that comes with being on the lighter end of that scale and the proximity to whiteness that I do have. So I do think it's important to kind of contextualise privilege and look at what it means to have privilege that you don't really have control over all the time. Definitely a need for a nuanced conversation on this. Aisha, I wonder, what were the key findings from this major study that you undertook? So what we were really struck by was that nearly all of the participants, whether they had light skin, our participants were Asian, black and mixed race. And we were struck by the fact that every participant with one exception or two exceptions had experienced colourism,

either from being privileged as a result of it or being subjected to it in a negative way. However, the couple that didn't, the only reason that they didn't say that they'd experienced colorism was because they weren't sure whether the experiences they'd had were racism or colorism. So we were struck by how pervasive it was. And we were also struck by the extent to which schools and families were sites in which colorism was perpetuated. So people talked about being teased at school about how being too dark, including young men talking about their sites, schools and families were sites in which colourism was perpetuated. So people talked about being teased at school about having too dark, including young men talking about their peers saying that they were too dark and ugly because they had dark skin. And we were also struck by the fact that people were very hurt and damaged by the fact that their parents, grandparents or

siblings would comment on the darkness of their skin and then compare them perhaps with siblings who had different shades of skin. So there were intra-family issues around skin shade that were very difficult for participants to manage and even the participants who had lighter skin who had siblings with darker skin found it very uncomfortable when they were treated differently from their from their own siblings because of their skin shade so that was something else that we were struck by and we're also struck by the strong and lasting impact that colorism had on participants so they might have experienced colorism from a very young age but even in the later like in the 50s it was still having a significant impact on

their life choices and what they what they felt able to do who they chose to to be in relationships with they even had an impact on who they felt able to. So, for example, one young man was talking about the fact that he dated people with light skin because of his experiences of colourism and not wanting to attract any of the negativity that comes with darker skin shades. Right, right. Wow. Far-reaching research. Dr Aisha Phoenix and Natalie Morris,

a pleasure to have you on the programme this morning and I hope we have many more conversations about this topic Thank you Now many of you have got in touch via social media to point out to us actually that we mentioned Steve Backshaw earlier in the programme

who is of course husband to GB rower Helen Glover, he was referred to as a naturist when he is in fact a naturalist. And the two are actually quite different, aren't they? Moving swiftly on. But keeping with a sporting theme, Paralympian Steph Reid is heading to Tokyo next month to represent Team GB at the 2020 Games in the long jump. She's a five time world record holder and a triple Paralympic medalist. Wow. Steph was involved in a boating accident when she was 15, which led to her having the lower part of her right leg

amputated. But Steph soon found that sport allowed her to heal and grow as a person. After new research showing one in three teenage girls drop out of sport, Steph is now on a mission to keep girls involved. Really good to speak to you this morning, Steph. Welcome to the programme. Hi, thank you, Jessica. Now, this will be a Paralympics like no other, won't it really? How are you feeling about heading out to Tokyo, given the disruptive 18 months in the lead up? I am so excited. I mean, like, I know that there's still a lot of difficulties with the game. But as you say, it's just been 18 months of uncertainty, it's being cancelled, will it come back on? And even I've actually only the para athletics team was only announced less

than two weeks ago. So it's the first time I've been like, okay, yes, I'm going and now I just need to pack and get my life organised. And then I can't wait to go. Wow. Congratulations. This will be your fourth Paralympics. You've already won three Paralympic medals over the years. So what's the aim this time around? I mean, I've like the gold medal. That's what everyone is always going for. But you always want to have your, you know, your kind of your dream goal. And then there's your process goals. And so for me, this is very much just, there were still some things I thought I could do better. And I was

just loving it. You know, this was just never a career when I when I first had my amputation, you know, nobody knew what the Paralympics were. This was just not even on my radar that it was possible. I just thought I am loving this way too much. And if I can do it again for another cycle, I am in. You are absolutely beaming this morning. I love the enthusiasm. You mentioned, you know, that when you had your accident, no one really knew what the Paralympics was or what it was about.

So how did that accident and the amputation change your relationship with sport? It was tough. It was really, really hard. I grew up playing sports and actually my initial dream was to be an international rugby superstar. That's what I wanted to do. And I was always somebody who was very confident and comfortable and at home on the pitch playing with boys or girls. And then the accident happened and I became an amputee. And, you know, two things changed.

One, it was just it's being 15 as a female going through puberty. That's already tough. And you then get this life altering injury that changes how you look and perhaps what you're going to be able to do in life. That's really difficult. And then there was the aspect about missing out on my dream and wondering whether or not the sport was going to be for me. And I did want to get back into sport, but I was now in this very unknown position of I was so unconfident and I had never been like this. And it was just so hard to, you know, I wanted to go to the gym or I wanted to be out on the pitch or playing basketball because of the artificial

leg. There was just no way that I could ever do it and slip under the radar. Everybody was always staring at you. And then there was a thing that I've just, I wasn't that good anymore, not because I had necessarily changed as an athlete but because I I was still learning how to use this artificial leg and it was a really really tough time but at that moment what sport did for me was it helped me to just like my body again and like who I was and and also helped me build up that confidence and and even though I went into sport not very good I I knew well okay fine I wasn't great today but I'll I'll come sport not very good I I knew well okay fine I wasn't great today but I'll I'll come back tomorrow and and I'll be better and I suppose

that's exactly why you're campaigning to increase girls participation in sport body confidence is a big part of that yes exactly I mean I am I'm so excited to to partner with always and the key for playing campaign because I know what it did for me. And the thing that the sport does is, you know, you, you learn all these things like confidence and leadership and, you know, what do you do when the pressure is on? And these are things that yes, matter in sport, but matter so much more as well in the rest of your life. And the fact that the research show that one in three girls are dropping out of sport at puberty. And this means that this is one in three girls that

aren't getting that opportunity to develop these skills. And we just we cannot be missing out on that kind of potential. Fantastic. You know, there are many benefits, but what would you say to any girls listening right now the main benefits that they can experience from playing sport? For me, it was the confidence factor, both in terms of how I felt about my body. I in the span of about and it took it took a long time just to it was about four to five years that that's how long it took me to really become OK with being an amputee and going from someone who hated her artificial leg and always wanted to hide it to being someone that loved it because now this blade is how I can run. And yes, you should stare at it because it's awesome. And that was a huge transformation for me. But I think what it did for me personally about learning about confidence outside of that

and being able to walk into any situation and know, I can handle this. Brilliant. Steph Reed, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you on Woman's Hour this morning. That's all we have time for. And to the listeners, it's been an absolute pleasure to be with you this week.

Anita Rani is back with you tomorrow. See you soon. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello there. I'm Simon Armitage.

I'm just heading down the garden path, so this might be a good moment to tell you about the new series of my Radio 4 podcast, The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed. This shed, actually. And the shed's been quite a lonely place this past year for fairly obvious reasons, so it's great to be able to plump up the plastic cushions,

set up an extra fold-away chair, and natter about life and creativity with talented and thoughtful people. Guests include the Yorkshire Shepherdess Amanda Owen, broadcaster DJ and gardener Joe Wiley, and Smith's guitarist Johnny Marr. Put your ear to one of the many knotholes in the wall by searching for The Poet Laureate Has Gone to His Shed on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies I started like warning everybody Every doula that I know It was fake No pregnancy And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.